NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Shana A]

I must say I had a good long hard think about this last night.

So where does a cross dresser go to the toliet. The disable toliet is the best as it is usaly gender nutural - but I have been to the ladies when out as Alice - just the best of a bad choice.

And I agree - men should use mens facilities and women should use womens facilities.

Steph

Which facility do we use in cases where it isn't obvious which gender someone is? Which one is going to be safe, both for the gender variant person who needs to pee, and the binary gendered? During my year long rlt, I used the ladies room when out, and never had any problems. I now identify as neither gender, or androgyne, I don't necessarily pass as either. Since I happen to be male bodied  I use the mens rest room, but I don't feel safe there. Even when making no effort to pass as female, I'm often told I'm going in the wrong door... Anyway, there is no clear line for many of us which door  to choose, and we need to be able to go to the bathroom without putting our lives in danger.

y2g

[Sheila]

I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here. I know most restrooms have stalls with locked doors, I said most. You can't see anything. The only problem would be when you go into the mens room, they have those ugly urinals. I hated those things. They were open and you might see something if you were looking.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 01:07:35 PMSteph, You don't agree with me at all. Please don't turn what I said all around. I don't feel that a man should be showing "Mr Wobbly" ?? around. I don't care if your in the mens room or not. Now, if you are in the showers, meaning taking your clothes off and going under a spray of water to clean yourself off. Then I think there should be some precautions, like private showers or whatever the management wants for the business. This has nothing to do with going to the bathroom to urinate or defecate, that can be done in privacy.

[Steph]

I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here. I know most restrooms have stalls with locked doors, I said most. You can't see anything. The only problem would be when you go into the mens room, they have those ugly urinals. I hated those things. They were open and you might see something if you were looking.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 01:07:35 PMSteph, You don't agree with me at all. Please don't turn what I said all around. I don't feel that a man should be showing "Mr Wobbly" ?? around. I don't care if your in the mens room or not. Now, if you are in the showers, meaning taking your clothes off and going under a spray of water to clean yourself off. Then I think there should be some precautions, like private showers or whatever the management wants for the business. This has nothing to do with going to the bathroom to urinate or defecate, that can be done in privacy.

You're right I don't agree with you.  I re-read my post and I forgot to remove the "And I agree" part at the begining of my post, sorry if I caused any confusion, it was not my intent to turn your words around, I don't conduct myself that way, again I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Steph

[melissa90299]

Lots of post-op women look like men IMO, who is to decide? Just live and let live and if someone causes a problem, it can be dealt with. Again, it is not a problem in California.

[Shana A]

I think that you should use any bathroom you want. Now, if you look more male, like you haven't shaved in a while, then use the mens. If you look more female then use the womens. I just don't feel like there should be anything wrong here.

I really don't know how I appear to others. I'm in between enough that I often look female to some men if walking in that door, but also probably look male enough that I'd flip out women if I used the womens room. Whenever possible I try to use single facilities, but that isn't always possible.

I'm in favor of availability of more facilities that are able to be used by either/any.

y2g

[Emmalene]

Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?[

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 11:16:29 AM

Why do we insist on preserving a victim mentality?  Does that make us our own worst enemy?[

There are advantages, though morally questionable and not very mature, to playing the victim. I'll give two brief examples. My girlfriend's mom had been bullying both my girlfriend all her life and the rest of the family by lying and manipulating people into believing she is a victim, thus demoralizing anyone from standing up to her. Another example would be a male friend who grew up in the Hilltop region of Tacoma where he got the crap kicked out of him everyday at school by a gang of bullies. After "proving himself" by successfully fighting them each one on one, the leader of that gang took my friend in under his wing and taught him "the key to being a successful thug [I'm paraphrasing] is to always play the part of the victim and use that to your advantage".

Anyway, to get back on subject, I have a simple solution to the restroom problem but it will never happen; unisex restrooms. Partition the urinals in a separate area so women don't have to watch the men pee. Everyone has their own privacy in the stalls and there is no harm in everyone washing their hands together. The downside to this is that women will no longer have their own place of zen to gossip. That is why this will never happen, at least not in America.

[Kate]

Just live and let live and if someone causes a problem, it can be dealt with...

But that's not the point. It seems some are implying that as long as a male behaves themselves in the women's room, I should just "get over it." But I don't think anyone has a right to make that determination for me, or for every other woman. If someone else doesn't mind sharing facilities with anyone and everyone, that's fine. But it's not fair to impose that perspective on everyone else as long as that sign says WOMEN on the door.

It's not a matter of punishing bad behaviour, or fearing someone doing this for sexual thrills. It's simply that many women are uncomfortable sharing an intimate "safe" space with men, no matter how polite they are, no matter what they can or can't see through a stall door.

~Kate~

[Keira]

I agree Kate, why should a 5 foot women
be the one to get over it if a hulking
6 foot maybe women if she squints walks trough
the door. Sometimes I feel we live in our own
little bubble and refuse to a least put ourselves
in the other person's position to try to
understand that they have a point too.

I agree that the gender variants should have a place
but just saying "get over it", is not an answer!

Unisex bathroom only work for me if they are single
stall with corridor access. That cannot handle high volumes
areas. Many restaurants have unisex bathrooms.

[Sheila]

This is what I came up against down at city hall. The subject of this post is 'NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS". Now, are locker rooms considered restrooms? I have never thought of it that way. I have always thought of locker rooms as a place to change after doing a job or exercise and coming from the showers. A place to change your clothes and to lock up your valuables. A restroom is a place were you go when nature calls and you have to get rid of waste products from your body and a place you can wash your hands and face. I have always felt they were two different places, now , sometimes there is  toilet in the locker room, but most always no lockers in a restroom. Am I missing something here. Anytime the word transgender came up, the restroom issue immediately followed. In Oregon, it's not against the law for the opposite gender to use the restroom. Just as long as they obey the laws.
Sheila

Posted on: November 23, 2007, 05:40:34 PMSteph, you are always so right on. I forget that you can make a mistake like I do. I shouldn't have jump so hastily, I'm sorry ;0(  I don't know how to get one of those Wal-Mart signs down. Hugs Sheila

[melissa90299]

What is so ironic is that all of those arguing against "men" in the ladies room are at one time or another perceived as men in the ladies room. If someone peeps through the stall, that can be dealt with. Again, grow up.

[Steph]

OK I'll put it this way...  I don't want men in my space whether that space be a locker room where I change cloths, fix my hair touch up my makeup, I don't want men in my washroom, and I don't want men in my locker room with a washroom.

It seems to me that there is a misconception that the only thing a woman does in the washroom are those things to satisfy the call of nature.  This could not be further from the truth.  Women socialize in the washroom, they change cloths and they fix each others cloths, they seek refuge, it's a safe haven, or it's generally thought to be.  Men don't belong in a women's washroom/change room.

Steph

[tinkerbell]

I don't have any problems with transsexual women (pre, post, non-op) using the ladie's lounge, but I do have a problem with men who invade women's spaces in order to satisfy "other things" rather than a call from nature.

tink

[Steph]

What is so ironic is that all of those arguing against "men" in the ladies room are at one time or another perceived as men in the ladies room. If someone peeps through the stall, that can be dealt with. Again, grow up.

Nope fraid not, I've always been a woman and I don't need to grow up, and I can guarantee you that I've suffered enough abuse at the hands of men to know that I don't want them in my space, give me one valid reason why a man should be allowed into women's facilities.

Steph

P.S. We're talking about "men", not TS Women

[Sheila]

Not to get this all riled up. What about a woman with a penis? Are they allowed into the womans facilities?
Sheila

[Steph]

Not to get this all riled up. What about a woman with a penis? Are they allowed into the womans facilities?
Sheila

Are you referring to a ">-bleeped-<" or a person who is IS/TS

Steph

[Sheila]

No, I'm referring to a person like me, who had a penis when I was born. I was never a man either, but I was born with a penis and they told me I was a man, but I never believed it.
Sheila

[tinkerbell]

A pre-op or a non-op transsexual woman usually has a penis and yes, they should be allowed into the ladie's lounge, for they are women with the wrong anatomy.  Nevertheless, transvestites and men who cross-dress for sexual kicks and whatever else should not be allowed to invade women's spaces.  A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink

[Steph]

A pre-op or a non-op transsexual woman usually has a penis and yes, they should be allowed into the ladie's lounge, for they are women with the wrong anatomy.  Nevertheless, transvestites and men who cross-dress for sexual kicks and whatever else should not be allowed to invade women's spaces.  A transvestite or a cross-dresser is not a woman by definition, a transsexual woman (pre, post or non-op) is by definition and diagnosis.  I think people need to be educated about these differences because they are significant in implementing laws/policies such as these.

tink

I defer to Tink before I say something I may regret

Steph

[Rachael]

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

Thankyou steph... we've disagreed in the past, but on that point I agree. a transsexual m2f = woman. and is as likely to expose herself in those situations as any other woman, most likely LESS... these idiots get stuck on Jerry springer steriotypes as being what were all like...
and they SHOULD care about lesbians 'perving' in all women situations more than a straight m2f... natal woman, and transsexual lesbians maybe, but hey, sexuality defined restrooms? nah. silly isnt it? I CARE about what other women are doing in the lockerroom or loos about as much as i care about US poltics
misinformation, and biggotry eh?
this lot are  biblebashers 'zomg no teach about gays it might make people think they arnt deamons from HELLL!'
R

[TheBattler]

Just because someone want to dress and look like a woman doesn't make them one.  Ya I know, I know I'm being narrow minded again.

Steph

Thankyou steph... we've disagreed in the past, but on that point I agree. a transsexual m2f = woman. and is as likely to expose herself in those situations as any other woman, most likely LESS... these idiots get stuck on Jerry springer steriotypes as being what were all like...
and they SHOULD care about lesbians 'perving' in all women situations more than a straight m2f... natal woman, and transsexual lesbians maybe, but hey, sexuality defined restrooms? nah. silly isnt it? I CARE about what other women are doing in the lockerroom or loos about as much as i care about US poltics
misinformation, and biggotry eh?
this lot are  biblebashers 'zomg no teach about gays it might make people think they arnt deamons from HELLL!'
R

I feel left out not really identifying as TS at the moment - I am getting closer though.

Alice