NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Shana A]

Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

hmmmmm, maybe if enough of us pre-ops, non-ops, TGs, CDs, TVs, androgynes, genderqueers, etc., all start using the mens' room, we'll scare all the guys, they'll have to leave and go in the woods, and we'll have it to ourselves  >

y2g

[Keira]

My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

[Blanche]

Of all people, transpeople have a moral obligation to promote inclusivity and tolerance.

Peeps have no obligations about anything. 

I have been using restrooms in California for three years and have not run into a single problem as a result of this policy.

I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

So based on your own words.   You've been using the women's toilets even when "you were a man".  Not trying to pry or insult, just trying to understand what you meant.

[melissa90299]

I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

[Keira]

My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

I'll be honest melissa.
The only intolerant person I see here is you and
I finished discusssing this further because you
obviously have much too high opinion of yourself
to get any further on this point.
I wish you would not use quotations that your not really living.
I am pissed off... 
You are no Ghandi...

[Blanche]

I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

I think you should change the "we" to "I".  Keep me away from your "we".  It's obvious that I dont belong there.  Sweet dreams!

[melissa90299]

My point of view might be different.
I'm humble enough to not assume it might be.
Unless your telling my you've got
exactly the same opinions on every subject that GG's
have which from what I've heard from you is not a fact
I'd ascertain...

You are the one that made the implication that all "GGs" think the same and the view of "GGs" differs from those of "TGs" I am still baffled as to what your point is.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:39:06 PM

I am going to bed, I will leave you with this:

We must be the change we wish to see in the world. --- Gandhi

I think you should change the "we" to "I".  Keep me away from your "we".  It's obvious that I dont belong there.  Sweet dreams!

Sweet Dreams, I hope you don't try to use the Ladies Room while I am in there. 

[Sheila]

"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

I think this would be OK for people who Identitfy themselves in their expressed gender in the restroom. As far as locker rooms, dressing rooms and showers go. I would hope for some changes to be made for privacy issues. Don't forget that it goes for the men's rooms as well. People don't seem to think about the other side of the coin. If you are a FtoM, where do you go? There is, well the surgery for genitals is not perfected yet. They need to have their privacy. There are people out there that really don't want to have communal showers or dressing areas.
I have asked before, a long time ago, the definition of male or female. What is the definition? From the dictionary, any dictionary. Then define these terms realistically so one can spot it as they go into the restroom.
Sheila

[Rachael]

im not gender variant... im perfectly happy as a girl... i transitioned to female, but my gender is fixed thanks....
i dont like being told how im to identify, what i am, and how to think by others, it usually makes me somewhat cranky, and at half 5 in the morning after listening to my housemate watching family guy for hours (grr) im now miffed... this topic is driving me insane,
and there are people posting here, nameless, who ahve insanely biggoted views. and after thier own statement of some mystical obligation, are doing a good job of being a hypocrite...
i have NO obligation to be nice to anybody, or any more inclusive than any of my peers. i should know better? no.
it is not as black and white as man or woman, when it comes to transexual people, and cd/tvs in a toilet situation. i can accept a transexual woman, as a female, i may not open upto her as much as i would someone i presume to be natal female, but i qualify her as a woman. a cd or tv, is in my eyes, and those of most of my peers, male., and as such, should either use the mens room, or considering thier attire, somewhere neutral, ALL places have a disabled loo, BY LAW, use that.... i dont mind sharing a toilet with a transwoman, hey, were all women, and theres cubicals! its not like its 3 to a seat! men? no thanks... private space. locker room? i think you had better pass well, or be very very brave if you use the ladies lockeroom and are m2f and dont pass...it would certainly make me uncomfortable.... hypocite? possibly, afterall im meant to be ultimately accepting of everyone... BS. an unpassing transwoman, or cd/tv looks like a guy, its one of those situations, pass well, anyone can use it... i mean, what i dont know wont make me uncomfortable or hurt me huh?
at the end of the day this topic is simply about passability imo... and certain people in this topic are angling the discussion around to banning those who dont, from womens only spaces, OR including anyone in a frock as a 'woman'
we could play the 'no penis in ladies room' game, but thats not going to get us anywhere, unless they install fanny inspectors at public restrooms... then again, that wouldnt stop an unpassable post op woman getting trouble, or being barred access...
this is too complicated and sensative a matter to mess up tbh. the simplest answer would be, if you have a letter saying your transexual, job done. no letter? better learn to hold it eh? if your a CD or TV? you have no right to be in a ladies only space, painting a picuptruck red and sticking a prancing stallion on the hood doesnt make it a ferrari...  androgynes? well by your own definitnion your not women, so why use it?
ultimately, this is a futile discussion, as we arnt in any position of action. we wont get a say in the hypothetical decision, and at that end, the magical superior post ops, are bumming it down in the gutter with the preops... unless of course, you intend to flash your crotch at anyone who challenges your pressence?
i wholely dissagree with self identification granting access.. its open season to perverts...
melissa: your attitude is quite unhelpful here, and isnt winning any friends.
why cant blanche use the womens room when your there? i garuntee she wont be the one getting challenged...

R

[Keira]

I just told you why I think my opinion might be different.
Learn to read Melissa. Sshh. Can't believe this.

[melissa90299]

The only intolerant person I see here is you and
I finished discusssing this further because you
obviously have much too high opinion of yourself
to get any further on this point.
I wish you would not use quotations that your not really living.
I am pissed off... 
You are no Ghandi...

LOL talk about intolerant and judgmental...anyway I am legally female, I am not fighting for my rights but for the rights of others. I don't call that intolerance. The right always uses that argument i.e. that people who fight against intolerance are guilty of being intolerant of intolerance. Well, yes but look up the Logical Fallacy of a "circular argument."

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:46:42 PM

I just told you why I think my opinion might be different.
Learn to read Melissa. Sshh. Can't believe this.

I thought you already bowed out?

Anyway, it's been fun. (Yes, I really do enjoy a good debate and I don't take it personally if people disagree or attack me) But anyway, I am going to let you all cool off else we will soon see this:

[Rachael]

i thought you'd already gone to bed?
R

[Sheila]

Rachael,
  I think we are on the same wave length. How would you feel of a female who is very masculine looking?
Sheila

[Rachael]

i have a lot of butch lesbian friends in the uni lgbt... and most have more problems using the ladies than i do... ( ive never had an issue to date *touches wood*) theres butch woman, then theres GUY... theres a difference, they would have to be obviously a dude to get a challenge out of me, but if i did, id be polite, and appologise when corrected... which is beside the point as my lezdar is strong
R

[Keira]

Melissa, when you come back...

I've got university degrees of all type (computer engineering, almost entirely based on logic (masters), business (masters concentrating on strategy), public relations (masters), etc). 10 years of university and 15 as an architect of massive time and logic systems of up to hundreds of nodes (obviously, I've studied and worked at the same time). Your "education" of me in logic is plainly offensive.

As I said, the argument is useless and I invite a lock
because you believe you have the absolute universal truth and opinion on everything.

A female who is "masculine" looking is still female and I've never seen a butch female who looks in any way male, only some paranoid women would be bottered by. This is another straw argument.

As for me being here. Went to bed, couldn't sleep. I've got insomnia so sue me 

[Sheila]

I don't know what a straw arguement is, but I'm sure you do with all of your credentials. I have seen butch females who look like men, and I'm not paranoid. At least about sharing a restroom with someone. When I'm sitting in the stall I don't listen and think oh that must be a male or oh that is all right its a woman. I have a deep voice for a female, but its just like my moms. I have had no problems in the restroom. This is before surgery and after surgery. Have you had your surgery? Just wondering. I have been using the womens room for over 8 years now and I had my surgery over 3 years ago. I would still like to know how anyone can tell if you were either male or female other than they are not trying to express themselve in that gender. A CD/TV usually looks pretty good. How are you going to tell? Look up their dress/skirt? Maybe while they are in the stall, look under or over the stall? Look through the cracks to check them out? Gee, who is the perv now? Not calling anyone a perv, but if you do these acts then I guess you are. I would think that if you were afraid of someone watching you in the restroom, you should be afraid of the homosexuals. Some gay guy going into the mens rooms looking at all those butts lined up at the urinals. Let me see which one do I want to peek at. How about the lesbians? I know going over the limit here. Stating ignorant scenarios. Well, what do you expect from someone who doesn't have all those credentials.
Sheila

[Christo]

locked topic.  we gotta watch what we say here