Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My initial post got locked so rewriting this. Also apologies if I offended anyone in any shape or form in my initial post. That wasn't at all my intention. I was just a bit hurt as I had gone there with very good intentions and a open heart of meeting some very kind and accepting people.  But things didn't turn out that way as I was judged for having it easy. I live in stealth which can be suffocating at times so hoped for this to be a good avenue where I could openly be my true self.

I'm not sure why people get so touchy. You were honest and shared your experience. And I guess the part someone found offensive is the part that made the people you met unaccepting. [emoji53]



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It is very difficult for any of us to comment on the behavior of others, especially if we do not know what happened.

Here at Susan's Place we try to be supportive and caring to one another. This site is moderated   :police: and a quick review of the terms of service is one of the first things to do.

As for passing; I am a late transitioner. I am 67 years old and almost 6 feet tall. Most of the time I get "mamed", but some times I still get "sired". It does not bother me at all. The people who deliberately "sir" me are just trying to be funny and smart. I don't care and I am not impressed with their ignorance. They have a problem, not me.

I had a similar experience a year ago. My boyfriend and I are both pretty much stealth. I found a support group online and Lucas and I decided to attend a meeting. There were no other FtM guys there. No one really spoke to him at all. He was pretty much ignored. The women there were not at all friendly and were actually a bit hostile.  They stared at us both to the point we were uncomfortable.  At the end of the meeting the woman in charge of the group told me I shouldn't come back. She said because I had lived as female pretty much my whole life and had never dealt with facial hair, voice training or having to transition as an adult, I really had nothing to offer the group as far as experience or advice with anything "important" . She even went so far as to tell me that since I transitioned as a child I had no idea what it meant to be trans.

I was so offended and hurt by that! Yes, I will admit that I have been luckier than many women but that doesn't make me less or not trans. I still face many of the same problems and have the same feelings and concerns as any trans person. Lucas had the attitude of (nasty word) them and just forget about it. But that really bothered me. It put me off of trying to contact other trans people for a while. But I got lucky finding this site. The people here are so sweet and caring. And there is so much excellent advice to be had here.
Hugs

Oh, Rebchen, I'm so sorry to hear that.  I've had kind of mixed results with groups, and I don't know whether there are others to choose from.  I've been to a few different ones, and I find that I connect far better in some fora than in others.  I know that many people in our community are living under tremendous stress, uncertainty and even despair.  This doesn't always bring out the best in people.  I figure that the best way to approach groups is to think about what I might bring to the group in being able to possibly help someone.  I'm almost invariably surprised that I find myself being helped more so.  I hope you can find some kinship there.  Know that you're not judged here, and that we're all pulling for you. 

Erin

Jennifer Finney Boylan coined a term begrudgement for stuff like this.


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Don't feel like you are alone. I used to attend a TG support group. I was not accepted either. I suspect that my skin color played a significant role. I hardly had a chance to talk, even when it was about something very important to me. It seemed that the only one I got along with was the administrator. I talked more to her, than I ever did in group.
Perhaps an online venue may work better for you. Groups will have a hierarchy, or pecking order. If you appear as a threat to the hierarchy, you are likely to be treated as such, even if that is not your intent.

I also started pretty young, and MOST of the m2f's's were nearly hostile there too... we did fortunately have some f2m's that took me under their wing and socialized with me and hung out... it made a huge difference believe it or not.  As odd as it sounds, they accepted me for me.  That was like 25 years ago, and I really haven't been to any support groups after that.  I actually try to avoid most trans in public because I"m stealth too.

Quote from: Cimara on May 25, 2017, 09:12:33 PM
I had a similar experience a year ago. My boyfriend and I are both pretty much stealth. I found a support group online and Lucas and I decided to attend a meeting. There were no other FtM guys there. No one really spoke to him at all. He was pretty much ignored. The women there were not at all friendly and were actually a bit hostile.  They stared at us both to the point we were uncomfortable.  At the end of the meeting the woman in charge of the group told me I shouldn't come back. She said because I had lived as female pretty much my whole life and had never dealt with facial hair, voice training or having to transition as an adult, I really had nothing to offer the group as far as experience or advice with anything "important" . She even went so far as to tell me that since I transitioned as a child I had no idea what it meant to be trans.

I was so offended and hurt by that! Yes, I will admit that I have been luckier than many women but that doesn't make me less or not trans. I still face many of the same problems and have the same feelings and concerns as any trans person. Lucas had the attitude of (nasty word) them and just forget about it. But that really bothered me. It put me off of trying to contact other trans people for a while. But I got lucky finding this site. The people here are so sweet and caring. And there is so much excellent advice to be had here.
Hugs

Quote from: Cimara on May 25, 2017, 09:12:33 PM
She said because I had lived as female pretty much my whole life and had never dealt with facial hair, voice training or having to transition as an adult, I really had nothing to offer the group as far as experience or advice with anything "important" . She even went so far as to tell me that since I transitioned as a child I had no idea what it meant to be trans.

That is very wrong in so many different ways... You could help them realize what their lives might eventually be able to be like and get them to look a the longer term...

In any case,  what she said likely came from a very different place an what she said...

One thing about some late transitioners is that we can suffer emotionally from our own insecurities and even accepting our validity as women, particularly early on... Someone like you can unintentionally exacerbate those feelings...

If also does not help that even in "the community" there is a tendency of seeing those who pass well as more authentically female and even more so if they were pretty... I remember how hurtful I thought that dynamic was when i first saw it years ago.

Eventually we tend to make peace and accept our shortcomings but it can take a long time...

I'm almost 19 years post-op (started therapy at 39, HRT 1.5 years later, and had SRS at 42),  but when I see (at least in pictures) how well some here pass and how good they look,  sometimes I do feel a little sad for myself and wonder how things might have been ...

Understand that I do OK and pass better than some,  but no one would have ever called me beautiful and I have a big male frame/skeleton -so much so that unlike most, when I lost a lot of weight I got read more.

I do have good things in my life and have been lucky in a number of other ways, but I can understand where they may have been coming from, as well as how wrong they were both to you and to themselves (even if they did not realize it)

- Karen

Feel the same, I'm big & butch with a growly Lemmy voice. Don't wear skirts or make up & ride a Harley & listen to punk rock & metal so not "trans enough" for some

You all took the words right out of my mouth. As a relatively young transitioner who passes quite well (getting clocked is a very rare thing now), I find transwomen in local groups treating me hostile more often than not. Perhaps it has to do with the passing, perhaps with the fact my transition has been happening quite fast, I'm not sure.

What I do know is that I find cis-society fitting my needs more than transgroups. I'm almost up for SRS (5 weeks) and my life isn't revolving around trans-issues that much anymore. We all move on at some point, and my dream of simply living the life is really coming true now. My interest in talks about HRT is waning, same for therapy, hair removal and most other trans- issues. Even SRS isn't rocking my boat that much anymore, it's just that last step I'll have to go through myself soon.

On top of that, there's often a lot of jealousy among us, as if I'm deserving of that after having gone through an entire transition. And, this isn't trying to be rude but: sometimes I've got the feeling we're a bunch of broken hearts. We missed out on crucial steps in our emotional and social development, leaving us unable to cope with other people's emotions from time to time. I've got the feeling this is an often overlooked part of transition. It's not just the fact that we've had to deal with stuff most people never have to go through, it also leaves us lacking because of missed steps.

To my opinion, this is one of the reasons we really need therapy, and if possible, a stealth life afterwards to make up for this lost experience. Of course this isn't the case for all trans-people, but it definitely was part of my story. Just my 2 cents ;)

Great thread, I hope this doesn't get locked. I transitioned at 48, all 6'3" of me. It hasn't been easy, but it has absolutely been the best thing I have ever done in my life. So I've worked hard to be the woman I should have been, and both online and in person I find hostility and exclusion by other trans women. It's tragic​ because I'd love to be able to share my experiences but am far more inclined at this point to just disappear and enjoy being me.

It's comforting to read the similar experiences here, I feel a definite connection with those who have posted in this thread.

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I go to a couple different TG support groups. One at the LGBT center and one at the Gender Center.  They are both open and accepting to all, both stealth and non-passing. While there are bad apples, there are also good ones out there.

Quote from: Rebchen on May 25, 2017, 08:38:32 PM
My initial post got locked so rewriting this. Also apologies if I offended anyone in any shape or form in my initial post. That wasn't at all my intention. I was just a bit hurt as I had gone there with very good intentions and a open heart of meeting some very kind and accepting people.  But things didn't turn out that way as I was judged for having it easy. I live in stealth which can be suffocating at times so hoped for this to be a good avenue where I could openly be my true self.

You're pretty abrasive going by your limited amount of posts. If you are the same in real life, I can understand why you were unpopular there. Probably not what you want to hear, but perception is reality.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Ypsf09 on May 26, 2017, 11:40:05 AM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 26, 2017, 11:09:37 AM
You're pretty abrasive going by your limited amount of posts. If you are the same in real life, I can understand why you were unpopular there. Probably not what you want to hear, but perception is reality.

Hugs, Devlyn

Abrasive??????? Is that what one becomes for living in reality and not supporting others delusions ? Anyways I am referring to my other post since you brought it up.

Are you using the right account?

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 26, 2017, 11:09:37 AM
You're pretty abrasive going by your limited amount of posts. If you are the same in real life, I can understand why you were unpopular there. Probably not what you want to hear, but perception is reality.

Hugs, Devlyn

Wow.

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Oh, you primates!  Group aggression led by a high-status member against a perceived weaker member is really common among primates and some other mammals, particularly rhesus macaques and humans, as well as wolves.

In general, the high-status member initially is probing a newcomer for any signs of weakness.  The newcomer may counter at a similar level, demonstrate submission and surrender, or even flee.  The signs of weakness such as fleeing invite pursuit, and the dominant primate and their supporting band will tend to escalate their abuse.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201309/animal-rites-what-animal-behavior-teaches-us-about-bullying (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201309/animal-rites-what-animal-behavior-teaches-us-about-bullying)

The behavior tends to be self-propagating as well.   Recipients of abuse often become abusers themselves.  This has been demonstrated with physical abuse across generations, and within group dynamics.   Persons who have been marginalized by the larger social body often congregate and in turn marginalize others who they themselves see as weak or 'inappropriate' in some way.

In a recent example of this, I witnessed a large social support group for transgender folks go through this process.  (Not a group I normally associate with, but one that has hosted large benefits in the recent past.)  The majority of the group members consider themselves to be cross-dressers.  A handful of members went beyond this, seeking medical intervention and surgery.  They were marginalized, and recently forced out of the group as being unacceptable to the rest.

Humans tend to be slightly better at longer term planning than other primates, and their abusive behaviors may be more subtle.  This is pretty ugly stuff to have to face, but it is real, and definitely out there.

As rational beings we all need to recognize this behavior in ourselves and others, and rise above the for the long term benefit of all.  Just because someone lives their life differently than you do, or has different experiences and background,  does not invalidate their existence, their need for support, their basic need for social contact.  They are still people.

Welcome to the human race.  It's not a competition.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie
You're pretty abrasive going by your limited amount of posts. If you are the same in real life, I can understand why you were unpopular there. Probably not what you want to hear, but perception is reality.

Agreed. I got the same vibe.

So sorry you had to deal with that from people that should be understanding.

I've never been to a support group but i will say that in a limited amount of social interaction with other trans people, i have not had a negative experience.

I actually find my largest base of support coming from cis-women friends. These women, younger and all in their 20s and 30s have been a huge thing for me.

I haven't been to any groups yet but I think the fact that we share gender dysphoria doesn't guarantee we will all get along, just like I didn't instantly get along with all gay men I met all these years I've lived as a gay man just because we had the same sexual orientation.

That being said, we should definitely try to be more supportive of each other and try not to be judgmental and prejudiced.

Quote from: RobynD on May 26, 2017, 01:04:58 PM
I actually find my largest base of support coming from cis-women friends. These women, younger and all in their 20s and 30s have been a huge thing for me.

Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on May 26, 2017, 11:40:05 AM


Abrasive??????? Is that what one becomes for living in reality and not supporting others delusions ? Anyways I am referring to my other post since you brought it up.

Are you implying that people with gender dysphoria are delusional?

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 26, 2017, 12:46:40 PM
Oh, you primates!  Group aggression led by a high-status member against a perceived weaker member is really common among primates and some other mammals, particularly rhesus macaques and humans, as well as wolves.

In general, the high-status member initially is probing a newcomer for any signs of weakness.  The newcomer may counter at a similar level, demonstrate submission and surrender, or even flee.  The signs of weakness such as fleeing invite pursuit, and the dominant primate and their supporting band will tend to escalate their abuse.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201309/animal-rites-what-animal-behavior-teaches-us-about-bullying (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201309/animal-rites-what-animal-behavior-teaches-us-about-bullying)

The behavior tends to be self-propagating as well.   Recipients of abuse often become abusers themselves.  This has been demonstrated with physical abuse across generations, and within group dynamics.   Persons who have been marginalized by the larger social body often congregate and in turn marginalize others who they themselves see as weak or 'inappropriate' in some way.

In a recent example of this, I witnessed a large social support group for transgender folks go through this process.  (Not a group I normally associate with, but one that has hosted large benefits in the recent past.)  The majority of the group members consider themselves to be cross-dressers.  A handful of members went beyond this, seeking medical intervention and surgery.  They were marginalized, and recently forced out of the group as being unacceptable to the rest.

Humans tend to be slightly better at longer term planning than other primates, and their abusive behaviors may be more subtle.  This is pretty ugly stuff to have to face, but it is real, and definitely out there.

As rational beings we all need to recognize this behavior in ourselves and others, and rise above the for the long term benefit of all.  Just because someone lives their life differently than you do, or has different experiences and background,  does not invalidate their existence, their need for support, their basic need for social contact.  They are still people.

Welcome to the human race.  It's not a competition.

You'd like Robert sopolsky's work with neuro biology/genetics/sociology/psychology.


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 26, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

This was my fear, but it turns out that cis-women, at least at work, have been the most accepting and lovely people to me.  If anything, I suspect that there has been a stronger correlation between acceptance and social-economic class than gender or even age, for that matter.  I'm only 3 weeks out to the world, so it's a pretty small sample to analyze.  Based upon my experiences it'd probably be surprising not to find some surprises in how people respond versus one's expectations. 

Erin

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 26, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

This really depends. What I might say may be a bit controversial but many women (not at all, of course) feel less threatened by gay men than by other women or straight men. They know gay men don't want them, which takes off the huge pressure of accidentally friendzoning a male friend or receiving sexual advances from one and having to reject him, and they also can talk about men and know that the gay friend does not pose a threat to dating prospects, as the men who like women won't be attracted to him and vice-versa. The problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 27, 2017, 03:55:41 AMThe problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

Hear hear! (once again I find myself agreeing with you, we should share more stories :) )

I would even go so far as to say that this behavior is wide-spread amongst women in general, trans and cis. The moment you're good looking, you start posing a threat. You can get the men others want, you start to become the 'competition' instead of the 'friend-zone'. Furthermore, I have the feeling women tend to become a bit more jealous in these kinds of situations than men.

Not all of us are like that, but I really have the feeling we as transwomen might be even more jealous of one another than women in general. We're all coming from a place which we hate, most of us transition and we end up somewhere along the spectrum of female beauty. Some get closer to what society thinks beauty is, some develop their own androgynous mystique (which I find VERY attractive by the way!) and some will look like transwomen 10 years after finishing their transition. Not all of us want to go all the way, but those who do and don't get there might end up being jealous of those who're getting there faster or are getting farther. That's inherent to being trans, it has a fair amount of luck and privilege attached to it. Same goes for everybody else by the way.

I've been to a couple different support groups, each in different stages of my transition. Two of the three groups I've seen were dominated by older transwomen, who didn't get passing privilege. After those groups, I was lucky enough to find a couple of trans-friends, all my age (late twenties, early thirties), all transitioning at the same time. As with the world at large, some got lucky, while others did not. When I started attending these meetings, I was the 'last one on the list', just starting therapy again, no HRT yet.

(Quick note on my backgrond: my story is a long one, I've basically transitioned when I was 23, living as a woman for 5 years, then detransitioning for 1,5. I wanted to be sure). In any case, when I found that group it was at the end of the 1,5 years detrans-phase, and my 'second transition' took off like a runaway train. The end of the story was that I got to my legal name change sooner than them, same as for my passing privilege and my SRS. As I got further into it, my contact with them worsened. I started being ignored, a clique formed which more often than not excluded me, and in the end drew back into my stealth-life, only seldomly attending their meetings.

Their behavior was much the same as what I get from cis-women who seem me as a threat now. The passive-agressive grin, those little, smiling but not friendly eyes. The stares, and then the turning around and finding somebody to talk to about you. The scans, from top to bottom. Even then, I wouldn't change this for the world. Somehow, I can cope with this. Not that I like passive-agressiveness, but yeah. It's a part of our collective experiences, even though I dispise it when we practice it, it's also not something that can totally be avoided.

Well... I do select my friends based on this kind of behavior though. I find that groups in which this happens less, the internal cohesion is much stronger. Passive-agressiveness isn't just a way of dealing with frustration, it's born out of individualism. The notion of being more deserving of something, it's the female version of macho behavior. Only they don't flaunt it in your face, they flaunt it in the faces of your acquaintences, turning them against you.

Good thing is, I'm 31 years old now and wise enough to see through this kind of b*llsh*t :)

I have experienced this type of passive aggressiveness in  trans support groups too. I wouldn't take it personally though, it's mostly their own issues that they are projecting.  A lot of non passing transwomen can't stand the sight of a cute feminine  passable one. It brings out a lot of anger/resentment in them which they can't control. Other than that there is also the issue of commonality. One time I went to a support group with all white non passing transwomen. Most of them identified as straight men before and had wife and kids. We had nothing in common so it was a very neutral experience for me.

And one time I ran into a very passable beautiful  tgirl at a surgeon's office in LA, we hung out and become very good friends. She had no issues with me as she was very secure and happy with her own self. She looked amazing, had a great job/career, handsome boyfriend.

Sorry to hear about your poor experience Rebchan...  I guess when you get around a bunch of catty girls, it's going to happen at one point of another.  Well, don't give up.  There are more understanding people out there than judgmental ones.  Not all groups are created equal...  Luckily, the understanding ones that you were looking for probably also left and made a new group where that kind of behavior isn't tollerated.

Quote from: Riya88 on May 27, 2017, 03:58:40 PM
I have experienced this type of passive aggressiveness in  trans support groups too. I wouldn't take it personally though, it's mostly their own issues that they are projecting.  A lot of non passing transwomen can't stand the sight of a cute feminine  passable one.

I think that is an over generalization as well as often a misinterpretation...

That said  less than stellar behavior and misunderstanding the other's motives and more  happens on both sides... 

More than a few young good looking TSes have been known to denigrate and deny the identity of those who did not pass so well  (particularly if they are late transitioners) ... typical "mean girl" behavior.

That said all that is at it's worst when people are relatively early after transition... From what I've seen, after a decade or so, much of that (but not all)  tends to die down on both sides...

Regardless of looks or age, we tend to be at our most insecure (and so less tolerant of differences) early on...

I think as we become more confident and accept ourselves and our individual realities (be it optimal or not), we tend to be more open to understanding where others are coming from, and more able to see then commonalities beyond the differences.

Going through this is still a relatively unique  journey  "changing sex" compared to that of most people... And that is one reason even some who have been stealth for decades tend to come to places like this on-line, at least once is awhile.

Maybe that puts some perspective on all of this.

- karen

My experience with support groups has been well received.

I have 3 local. 
One is mainly Trans men, fairly small group. 
One is mainly Trans women, about 20-30 regulars. 
One is a mixture of both and has a lot of Trans youth (boy/girl in schools still), about 40-50 at times. 
All of these have some allies male and female and parents.

I have lived for the most part stealth of my 40 years since transition, except for family and work where I transitioned.

I give as much support as I can on how things were in the dark ages of TG/TS.  Cannot give advice on HRT/therapists/doctors/clinics/family issues or such, as my past is so different from others now.

I once asked if my presence and past is a problem.  Most say they enjoy having me around as it does give them hope for a life long experience.

I do find some in the TG/TS area, that are not part of these groups, that have that holier than thou attitude.  Especially on the ones that are/were Gay men, or entertain as Drag performers.

I think TG/TS people are no different that the general population, in that we have prejudices.  Some of this has gotten worse with the election of our last president.  Supporters and non-supporters from each side.  Had one person suggest joining with the Log Cabin Republicans, and was resoundingly booed.

Quote from: Georgette on May 28, 2017, 01:55:28 AM
My experience with support groups has been well received.

I have 3 local. 
One is mainly Trans men, fairly small group. 
One is mainly Trans women, about 20-30 regulars. 
One is a mixture of both and has a lot of Trans youth (boy/girl in schools still), about 40-50 at times. 
All of these have some allies male and female and parents.

I have lived for the most part stealth of my 40 years since transition, except for family and work where I transitioned.

I give as much support as I can on how things were in the dark ages of TG/TS.  Cannot give advice on HRT/therapists/doctors/clinics/family issues or such, as my past is so different from others now.

I once asked if my presence and past is a problem.  Most say they enjoy having me around as it does give them hope for a life long experience.

I do find some in the TG/TS area, that are not part of these groups, that have that holier than thou attitude.  Especially on the ones that are/were Gay men, or entertain as Drag performers.

I think TG/TS people are no different that the general population, in that we have prejudices.  Some of this has gotten worse with the election of our last president.  Supporters and non-supporters from each side.  Had one person suggest joining with the Log Cabin Republicans, and was resoundingly booed.

Yeah, there's an unwritten rule that people in the LGBT circles are/will be left wing progressives. It's interesting because as a group we've been marginalized and excluded because we're different, and yet there's the same undertow of conformism in this group and on different levels. Could be politics, could be internal standards of expectations that are influenced by the society that excludes us. Because I have the impression that we're probably smarter on average than the average bear in society, we'd recognize this, but the desire and tendency to believe over know exists as it does anywhere else. Like most groups, there's always going to be some sort of of suspension of disbelief if you want to be a member or at least one of good standing. To that end, I've unsubscribed from group political and religious beliefs, leaving open the option that I'm a a member of the human race and even then I have my doubts. :) channeling Albert Ellis, musterbation is a cause of most of our problems groups feed into it, to crush the individual, whether it's the family unit or larger groups, but that's another subject altogether...


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Quote from: Dayta on May 27, 2017, 02:17:46 AM
If anything, I suspect that there has been a stronger correlation between acceptance and social-economic class than gender or even age, for that matter.

My therapist also told me that. But he also said this that Aurora said:

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 27, 2017, 03:55:41 AM
The problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

I am not really worried about close female friends turning against me. I don't think that could happen, what actually worries me is acquaintances, female coworkers, etc... People I interact with on a daily basis who are all super friendly to me at this point, they smile at me, are nice to me, etc...Which doesn't happen as much to my female peer who sits right next to me (though to be fair she's kind of difficult sometimes). Sometimes I feel like those differences between her interactions and mine have to do with our personalities, in which case I'll be fine, but other times I just feel like it's simply because she's a woman and they tend to be harder on each other.



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Quote from: Karen_A on May 27, 2017, 07:01:52 PM
I think that is an over generalization as well as often a misinterpretation...

That said  less than stellar behavior and misunderstanding the other's motives and more  happens on both sides... 

More than a few young good looking TSes have been known to denigrate and deny the identity of those who did not pass so well  (particularly if they are late transitioners) ... typical "mean girl" behavior.

That said all that is at it's worst when people are relatively early after transition... From what I've seen, after a decade or so, much of that (but not all)  tends to die down on both sides...

Regardless of looks or age, we tend to be at our most insecure (and so less tolerant of differences) early on...

I think as we become more confident and accept ourselves and our individual realities (be it optimal or not), we tend to be more open to understanding where others are coming from, and more able to see then commonalities beyond the differences.

Going through this is still a relatively unique  journey  "changing sex" compared to that of most people... And that is one reason even some who have been stealth for decades tend to come to places like this on-line, at least once is awhile.

Maybe that puts some perspective on all of this.

Couldn't agree more. Insightful! As you noted, I think the main points are:

- Differences in experience, motivations, starting point, circumnstances, age. Its pretty understandable that the more different, the more difficult is to empathize.

- Being insecure, self-centered, anxious at early transition may worsen or even impair our capacity to empathize with others.

Some older transwomen can also be mean to younger girls. They can be very dismissive of younger girls who started transition at a young age and even insinuate that because they didn't have a lot of the struggles late transitioners do, they don't know what it is to be trans or even that they aren't truly trans.

Myself I would never dismiss anyone's struggle regardless of age or what they look like. That's just messed up and really mean.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki
Sometimes I feel like those differences between her interactions and mine have to do with our personalities, in which case I'll be fine, but other times I just feel like it's simply because she's a woman and they tend to be harder on each other.

I think it has more to do with personality, or at least, I think if any threat is perceived it can be eased through personality, friendly interaction and cooperation.

When it comes to female (trans or not) circles, I think it is important to establish basic rules: avoiding competition, not taking advantage over others, cooperation to improve and level-off status between members, etc. Common sense, so to speak.

For example, if you receive unsolicited advantage, when possible you share it with your peers, or you help your peers to be able to get that advantage in the future.

Quote from: Cimara on May 28, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
Some older transwomen can also be mean to younger girls. They can be very dismissive of younger girls who started transition at a young age and even insinuate that because they didn't have a lot of the struggles late transitioners do, they don't know what it is to be trans or even that they aren't truly trans.

What it means to be trans is t have your identity questionably some *IF* they know... and it often means trudging to accept one self because of societies reactions regardless of age of transition...

But the experience can be HUGELY different depending on age, circumstances ... and looks (independent of passability) as of course the biggest one passability itself ... I think that is undeniable...

There are commonalities beneath those differences... but they can be be very hard to see, particularly early in transition... and that is the time we tend to hurt each other most because of the differences.

During the early years of my transition (I started the process in 1994) I meant a lot of TSes in person between some support groups and meeting people I met on-line... I would guesstimate  somewhere between 100 and 200.

But I only met one who started transition in her early teens and strangely it was while having FFS with DR. O. in San Francisco in 1999...

She was a young women in her early 20's from France who had transitioned with the support of her family in her early teens ... but initially without HRT and she was there for FFS...

While we were both recovering we spent a day together sightseeing in the city ... I will say she seemed a lot less 'damaged' emotionally than I was... I did not see her face before the surgery, but even swollen as we both were, I could tell she would not have any issues with passing for the rest of her life.

Maybe I did feel a bit of envy or maybe a little sorry for myself, but it did not affect my interactions with her. She was very nice and we had a pleasant day together.

I find it hard to imagine that any TS would be mean to her or begrudge her anything... she was very nice and in no way did I feel she was putting me down or feeing she was more "female' etc... From my side I was just curious about her experience because it was very different from mine.

- Karen

I can't say that the group I am in, in Seattle is anything other than what I make it. Which means stop being an introvert and contribute to the group. I have found no problems with being listened too. My biggest disconnect is that most of them are city dwellers and I live in the remote suburbs where things are accepted a little differently. We have anywhere from 40 to 60 participants each week. I really thought I would hear a lot about passing but it seems most of the members would rather be accepted for whom they are rather than portraying the perfect woman or man. Oh yeah, You gotta learn restraint as the others are just as interested in their perspective. It does make it easier when there are common rules that are enforced. Courtesy is always welcome. My work experience is trying to dissolve the silo's at large companies. Where every department has it's own little fiefdom. It's the same thing here. It's easier when the meetings have a posted agenda. Things don't seem to run off the rails so much. Also mingling after meetings or before helps to see people in social situations where they may let their guard down and be more open.

The trans support groups operated by my HMO separate the younger transitioners into a different group than the older ones.  This might be why I'm not seeing the sniping here.  There are different issues each group faces that may be hard for those of a different age range to accept.

It a sort of deliberate siloing, I suspect.