Susan's Place Transgender Resources

How is the best way to achieve a female voice, I ask because the usual methods of maybe practising at home is pretty much unviable without feeling like an idiot as I live with my mum and her partner and feel uncomfortable trying to do so, my mum's partner completely hates the fact I'm transitioning and I'm self conscious of my own screwed up attempts, practising even singing won;t help as I can't sing even as a male so what other methods are there that are more realistic to practice and achieve.

Go to a library and get a study room and practise there? Or any place, where you can be alone, park etc.

And it is practise and practise. I didn´t take any therapy sessions, but just practised and finally settled to a voice that I can achieve easily and without taxing my throat. It might not be the most feminine voice, which I could achieve, but to me that sounds fake.

But it´s my voice  :)

Here´s a program that I´ve used to analyze my voice:

http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/ (http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/)

What helped me the most was learning to speak while escalating my throat where the Adam's apple is (practice this by moving your throat up and down), while simultaneously speaking and gently exhaling with my diaphragm as this eliminates the chest voice (google diaphragmatic breathing). I hope this helps!

Hey, TranSketch!

I saw this post earlier yesterday, and I was already planning on doing something like this, but I hope this is helpful to you; seeing your post made me think I should go ahead and do this now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvqbWX7RS4Y

Practice while alone in the car. Honestly the best option for most.

Quote from: OU812 on May 31, 2018, 08:54:15 AM
Practice while alone in the car. Honestly the best option for most.

Would if I had a car, sadly all I have is a license XD but naturally you didn't know as I haven't mentioned it

Good luck with working on your voice TranSketch. 

Thanks ladies for your tips here as well.

With Love,
Noelle

Oh, I just downloaded an app to help with my voice.  Once I try it out a little, I'll let you girls know if I recommend it. 

With Love,
Noelle

There are apps for your phone that will show you if its in female range or not.. Now as far as tonality, resonance, pitch, timbre, all those big fancy words .. Not sure if there are better programs out there.  The one I use is voice pitch analyzer and its showing my voice always in female range.

If you can find something better let me know! :)

That's the same app that I just downloaded Doreen.  I think that I'm going to try it out sometime in the next few days to see if it's helpful. 

With Love,
Noelle

Quote from: Doreen on May 31, 2018, 12:05:21 PM
There are apps for your phone that will show you if its in female range or not.. Now as far as tonality, resonance, pitch, timbre, all those big fancy words .. Not sure if there are better programs out there.  The one I use is voice pitch analyzer and its showing my voice always in female range.

If you can find something better let me know! :)

I'm still using a flip phone so apps really aren't a thing I can access as it's nowhere near the tech level of a smart phone, it'd have to be PC software.

You're chasing your tail in circles listening to any tips, if you do not have a place to practice where you can feel comfortable.

I never used "pitch analyzers" (which, by the way, people on this forum focus 10,000% too much on pitch...) and neither did most people prior to ~5 years ago when that sort of technology became common. What I did use was 100's of hours of practice during commute, in particular. My job required 50+ miles of driving a day, and the isolation of a car is perfect for practicing the voice.

Get you a place to practice for hours on end where you can be alone and not feel awkward. Do you have any friends with a safe house who would help you out? If you don't have a car, smart-phone, or even a place/time you can be alone at will, then you'll be fighting a very uphill battle trying to get any progress with your voice.

In the meantime my suggestion would be to start at a soft volume others can't hear? Really it just sounds like you're in a toxic living situation, so I don't even know what you have. Can you (pretend to, if necessary) talk to a friend on the phone a lot? Any voice teacher will tell you to start everything at a soft, effortless volume and work up from there - especially the case in voice transition.

Which, by the way, I highly encourage voice work. I think it's the most important part of transition besides hormone treatments and GCS. Good luck!

Quote from: OU812 on June 02, 2018, 07:08:56 AM
You're chasing your tail in circles listening to any tips, if you do not have a place to practice where you can feel comfortable.

I never used "pitch analyzers" (which, by the way, people on this forum focus 10,000% too much on pitch...) and neither did most people prior to ~5 years ago when that sort of technology became common. What I did use was 100's of hours of practice during commute, in particular. My job required 50+ miles of driving a day, and the isolation of a car is perfect for practicing the voice.

Get you a place to practice for hours on end where you can be alone and not feel awkward. Do you have any friends with a safe house who would help you out? If you don't have a car, smart-phone, or even a place/time you can be alone at will, then you'll be fighting a very uphill battle trying to get any progress with your voice.

In the meantime my suggestion would be to start at a soft volume others can't hear? Really it just sounds like you're in a toxic living situation, so I don't even know what you have. Can you (pretend to, if necessary) talk to a friend on the phone a lot? Any voice teacher will tell you to start everything at a soft, effortless volume and work up from there - especially the case in voice transition.

Which, by the way, I highly encourage voice work. I think it's the most important part of transition besides hormone treatments and GCS. Good luck!

I suspect even with transitioning I'll probably have developed female physically on HRT more so than actually developed a voice, as you say there's no where I feel I can practice without either feeling unsafe or like a total prat, I can throw my voice for male characters but not so much female.
As it stands I know I'd have to move out probably to do any such practice like this but am not financially in a situation for at least 3 -5 years to do this (more debts than income), I'm at risk of of (potentially) looking female eventually and then all that comes out my mouth is a male voice still ruining that whole illusion I'm trying to present, if I had the money and the guarantee voice surgery worked I'd go for it but despite the lack of money I've heard surgery is not a guaranteed fix, it's frustrating how reversed a F to M has an easier time to transtion there voice to more masculine  yet a M to F has to struggle to achieve it, I feel sometimes M to F get the raw deal when transitioning compared to there counterparts.

You just have to practise and practise...and not just at home, but to use it everywhere, even when it doesn´t sound perfect at first. It takes months, but eventually you start to think, that how was my voice in the beginning, because the new voice will stick and come automatically after months of using it.

After that, you don´t have to anymore always think to produce female voice.

And don´t set your goals too high or unrealistic. Seriously, as there are billion of different looking women, there are also billion of different sounding women. Just start observing and you´ll notice that some sound very low and not too feminine...and still they are women.

I don´t think my voice is that feminine. But it´s my voice...

Hi TranSketch,

It really is frustrating that trans men can alter their voices just with the introduction of testosterone while the introduction of estrogen doesn't have comparable effects for trans women. 

There really are different advantages for transitioners going from M2F and F2M.  It does seem for the most part that it is easier/quicker in many cases to masculinize the body with T than it is to feminize the body with E.  However, at this time,  genital surgery is much more successful for trans women than it is for trans men.  Those are just a couple of quick examples off the top of my head. 

I'm really hoping that you are able to overcome the obstacles that you are facing in you life to your transition.  Just try to stay positive no matter how difficult it might seem at times.  When I'm dealing with a daunting situation I try to remind myself that more than likely there has been someone (or many other people) that has been in my same predicament that I'm in and have come out on the other side okay. 

With Love,
Noelle

Also adding a note to the OP to please be patient and realistic. I consider myself "skilled", yet even with a voice that wasn't particularly masculine, it took a solid 8 years across a lot of different social engagements for me to really feel good about the voice I could create - even at that, it was a task that took uncomfortable physical effort, and could not be sustained. At ~5 years, I'd left my job after hearing what I sounded like, and it was a serious hit to my self-confidence.

I did end up having voice surgery. It was so easy and things are a lot better now. Even with what I'd accomplished, if I'd not been able to have a successful surgical outcome, I probably would have just stopped talking altogether because the years of strain and feeling of "posing" every time I spoke (or else, when not trying, feeling like I could not at all passably reflect the varied emotions and expressions I'd need to with any kind of genuine personality) were getting to be too saddening a weight on my conscience for me to handle on a daily basis, particularly because it felt like being forced to betray others in my life out of being locked away from a huge part of myself that I wanted to give to them. In other words, the essence of transition. It's not supposed to feel artificial or limited. You deserve to be a whole person, and you know it - or else you would not have ever had the guts to start down this path to begin with.

When the time comes that it's accessible to you, if you have any doubts about your voice at all, please don't be scared away from voice surgery. It's a damn miracle that Drs. like Kim, Haben, Remacle, and others have become widely known and available to us in the last 5 years.

OU812... Pitch is very important without it you do not have a baseline in which to base your progress on. By practicing maintaining a level near F3 I have been able to consistently hit my mark. Now I can slip into my female voice with relative ease. Yes, you are correct, it does take a lot,lot,lot of practice  The big three of voice training as taught to me by my voice coach with a masters degree in speech therapy. Pitch, breathing and forward resonance

I am lucky enough to have vocal therapy covered by my insurance.

But I am the first transgender patient for her and so we both are learning as we go.

One resource we keep coming back to is this book. I highly recommend it for MtF vocal therapy. It is written for a speech pathologist so has a lot of technical terms, but also explains it in simple terms to understand.

"Voice and Communication Therapy or the Transgender/Transsexual Client: A comprehensive Clinical Guide - 2nd Edition"
Richard Adler, Sandy Hirsch, Michelle Mordaunt.

My therapist and myself keep coming back to that book for guidance.

Therapist also gave me some handouts for vocal exercises to work on Forward Resonance and Ease of Onset. But I am not sure on copyrights and such to post them here.

If I might add the following book to the post, this is the one my voice coach and myself are using...

The Voice Book for Trans and Non-Binary People
A Practical Guide to Creating and Sustaining Authentic Voice and Communication
Matthew Mills and Gillie Stoneham

I do have a few other books and online "classes" I purchased, but this one I like the most.

I will check into the link Chanteur mentioned, as I like to learn.

https://www.jkp.com/uk/the-transgender-experience-2.html

Quote from: DawnOday on June 03, 2018, 01:40:34 PM
OU812... Pitch is very important without it you do not have a baseline in which to base your progress on. By practicing maintaining a level near F3 I have been able to consistently hit my mark...

The big three of voice training as taught to me by my voice coach with a masters degree in speech therapy. Pitch, breathing and forward resonance

You actually focus a lot less on pitch, then, than most here, if you're satisfied with F3, which yes is completely sufficient. I am very sharply critical, however, of those who obsess over small gains in pitch, because their focus will not help them towards their goals. Women can sound so unnatural if trying to elevate the pitch too high at all times...

Larynx position / resonance is vastly more important and I've made examples numerous times on this forum of women who speak solidly within the 'male range' with a distinctly female resonance. Some voices are more suited to it than others but it is absolutely possible to sound undeniably female and rarely if ever exceed most peoples' target goal of A=220, in fact a lot of film and TV stars regularly go as low as G100 rarely exceeding G=200. It's so common as to not even be remarkable, yet we see many transitioning women (not the OP) who seem to think they should sound like Hatsune Miku or something...

We have all heard women since birth, so should have no difficulty knowing if we are too deep and what a ballpark register is for women. It's the other details that need actual practice to avoid sounding like a gay male with feminine inflection patterns but no such resonance. And my point is that the reason so many struggle or just get surgery is because, yes, it is physically challenging even for those less cursed than others, and if you want to pass consistently you'll have to be constantly on guard in ways that are really not healthy for the core problem of gender dysphoria (unless your puberty left you with the voice of Ross Mathews).

The entire point of transition is to alleviate the experience of gender dysphoria, and being on guard with the voice does not help that. If you're always thinking about it and always having to try very hard, then that is not healthy for you psychologically as far as moving into a new stage of your life. If I were some billionaire or something I'd literally just pay for voice surgery for anyone who wanted it because it's had that big of an impact on my quality of life.

This is also why I'd argue against breath support as a necessity, because you should sound female regardless of whether your voice is well composed or if you're out of breath, half conscious or whatever. I think we've all met or seen trans women online who just seem a lot less concerned with how their voice sounds, and I suspect it's a matter of giving up because the physiological challenge is so high. If it took me 8 years, I wouldn't be surprised if it took someone else 20+. But the voice and the psychological force also gets tired after all that effort, which is why I have the utmost praise for feminizing glottoplasty - and to the point of the OP, my advice is to not have terribly high expectations because this is an area of transition that even diligent practice is not necessarily successful at overcoming on its own.

If you can't find an indoor place to practice, find somewhere outdoors, as quiet as possible.  An unfrequented area in a park, perhaps.  You won't look or sound crazy nowadays.  Hands free mobile phones are common and lots of people look as though they are talking to themselves. 

If you are self-conscious, hold a mobile 'phone in your hand.  A bonus is that your 'phone probably has a facility for recording your voice.  Especially if you can't use a voice app, you will need to play back recordings to evaluate your progress.

BTW OU812's advice about speaking softly has an additional benefit.  Even cis men, when they are talking gently to children or animals, often sound quite feminine.

I tested my voice on Praat the other day after hearing about it here, and I'm well into the acceptable female range for pitch and F3, but what I think I need to work on now is volume, but not sure where to start on that, I see that the new edition of the transgender voice book is about to come out so I'll probably get that and hopefully can get some amplitude coming out(pun fully intended :P)

I know many transgender women, and I have to say, almost none of them have achieved a female voice.  Without surgery it is nearly impossible to achieve if you have a deep male voice.  It takes training, commitment, and years of practice.  Even then, male resonance has a way of seeping through.  You can't completely overcome the acoustic characteristics of the air passages from chest to nose and mouth. 

Another thing I've noticed is that so many are embarrassed to even attempt to use a more female sounding voice around others.  I see this same thing in foreign language classes where the majority of students are embarrassed to adopt the accent of native speakers, and, sadly, will never pass as native speakers.  For anyone trying to develop a female voice, being self-conscious about using a feminine quality voice in the presence of friends and/or strangers is a sure path to failure. 

It does little good to practice your female voice on a part-time basis.  The reason is that you have to retrain the muscles involved in voice control to the point that they 'forget' their former habits.  It's all about muscle control to elevate pitch, eliminate chest resonance, and learn feminine speech patterns and intonation.  Frankly, many cannot do it, even with voice coaching.  It's both a talent and a skill born of proper technique and years of practice, practice, and more practice.

Having summarized the rather depressing reality of this challenge we all face in transition, don't give up.  Any honest effort you make to feminize your voice will be worth the effort, even if you can't achieve a completely passable female voice.  Pass-ability depends on a collection of feminine gender cues.  It is not necessary to erase every vestige of maleness from your voice, body, presentation, and mannerisms to be gendered as a woman.  You only have to tip the balance in your favor.

I uploaded a sample of myself in the "Does my voice pass" thread so you can judge for yourself, I'm going off of other's reactions to me online and on the phone, and no one seems to question it, I get "miss" every time.

Quote from: Clara Kay on August 16, 2018, 11:13:06 AM
I know many transgender women, and I have to say, almost none of them have achieved a female voice.  Without surgery it is nearly impossible to achieve if you have a deep male voiceIt takes training, commitment, and years of practice.  Even then, male resonance has a way of seeping through.  You can't completely overcome the acoustic characteristics of the air passages from chest to nose and mouth. 

Another thing I've noticed is that so many are embarrassed to even attempt to use a more female sounding voice around others. I see this same thing in foreign language classes where the majority of students are embarrassed to adopt the accent of native speakers, and, sadly, will never pass as native speakers.  For anyone trying to develop a female voice, being self-conscious about using a feminine quality voice in the presence of friends and/or strangers is a sure path to failure.

It does little good to practice your female voice on a part-time basis.  The reason is that you have to retrain the muscles involved in voice control to the point that they 'forget' their former habits.  It's all about muscle control to elevate pitch, eliminate chest resonance, and learn feminine speech patterns and intonation. Frankly, many cannot do it, even with voice coaching.  It's both a talent and a skill born of proper technique and years of practice, practice, and more practice.

Having summarized the rather depressing reality of this challenge we all face in transition, don't give up.  Any honest effort you make to feminize your voice will be worth the effort, even if you can't achieve a completely passable female voice.  Pass-ability depends on a collection of feminine gender cues.  It is not necessary to erase every vestige of maleness from your voice, body, presentation, and mannerisms to be gendered as a woman.  You only have to tip the balance in your favor.

I started with a very deep voice, and I have achieved a female voice, so I feel that voice surgery should be a last resort if someone is not able to achieve a female voice after a few years of trying 100%. 

I feel that the embarrassment factor is what keeps a lot of trans women from developing a passable female voice. Transition in and of itself is extremely uncomfortable, so why be embarrassed about trying your best to develop your female voice in public, I say just embrace the "duckling" phase and put your whole true self out there for the world to see, and don't let your ego stop you from being your authentic self!

It may take a few years to fully develop your female voice (total immersion 24/7 until your female voice becomes your default voice, so depending on one's circumstances, it may require that one is living full-time as a woman), but that time will pass anyway; and VFS will not guarantee that you will have a female voice, and from what I understand, even with the surgery you still have to train your voice.

Quote from: bloo11 on August 16, 2018, 12:00:22 PM
Defo start by pushing your Adam's Apple up, holding it, and talking. It hurts a lot at first, but keep doing it. After you train that muscle for so long, you'll be able to speak like s woman on command - it's like midway between whispering and speaking as you normally would. Eventually you won't be able to sound male.

Me, rambling about 4 years of transition:
https://youtu.be/mFQrBpmVMJg

That is my more resonant voice, which I use more than my trained voice. I sound super-natural, and dudes constantly compliment my voice.

The AA technique is what worked for me, and also using diaphragmatic breathing (it helped me to eliminate the chest voice [gently contract your diaphragm while speaking, and try not to end your sentences in your chest]).

The use of the diaphragm I believe is where I need to concentrate now, I think I need to just push more air to get more volume, then maybe I can start working on intonation and phrasing, fortunately my voice is the one area of my transition that I'm actually semi happy with and rather enjoying the practice. :D

Quote from: bloo11 on August 16, 2018, 12:00:22 PM
Defo start by pushing your Adam's Apple up, holding it, and talking. It hurts a lot at first, but keep doing it. After you train that muscle for so long, you'll be able to speak like s woman on command - it's like midway between whispering and speaking as you normally would. Eventually you won't be able to sound male...

That is my more resonant voice, which I use more than my trained voice. I sound super-natural, and dudes constantly compliment my voice.

I've noticed immediate improvement after holding my voice box up.

https://blog.bufferapp.com/why-practice-actually-makes-perfect-how-to-rewire-your-brain-for-better-performance
The takeaway: practicing skills over time causes those neural pathways to work better in unison via myelination. To improve your performance, you need to practice FREQUENTLY, and get lots of feedback so you practice CORRECTLY and enhance the right things.

If TGs could practice with each other over the Internet in real time, and honestly critique each other, they may be able to achieve the voices they desire.

I wonder if systematic choral training for altos and sopranos can help with MTfemale voice development.  A skilled performing arts teacher coaches groups with a lot of training and practice in this situation.

Though I still can't go for HRT I decided to at least practice voice (which isn't affected by hormones anyway, as far as I know). I'm at very start. What do you think about EVA app? Seems good with lectures and practice tools.

I've used two apps for reference.

Voice Pitch Analyzer works good for graphing your range as you speak or read as passage. It gives you averages and compared past recordings to recent ones.

Vocal Pitch Monitor gives you a real time graph of your speech compared to notes and frequency.

I have focused mainly on holding my larynx up as high as I can. Over the last year or so I have built up those upper muscles and the lower ones to the chest have less pull on it now. My voice raised from just below C3 to just below C4. If I don't think about it and speak relaxed I now average 180htz. If I am thinking about it I can comfortably speak and even yell at the 200 htt average zone.

All that doesn't take away that bass in my voice that very few women have. I don't know if it's the size of the larynx cartilage chamber or not. Seems like the vocal cords would be more just the pitch control. There is just that sound I cannot get out of my voice. My voice isn't real masculine but it's not normal feminine either. I still get Mr on the phone.

For real time graph I'm using gram50 for Windows. Voice pitch analizer... I can rarely use it due they give me too complicated texts >_< I can't read it without stumbling on every 3 words XD

Josie I think you did great :) keep working, you inspiring me :)

Lots of good advise on pitch but no advice on practice for developing feminine speech patterns and intonation. Deep Stealth offers an amazing ***FREE*** workbook full of boring, repetitive, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE exercises (My previous post was removed the link to the free workbook includes a link to the companion course they sell so you will have to search for Gender Life's "Finding Your Female Voice")

My voice seems to pass fairly well.  For me, I've always been working some kind of job where I'm on the phone most of the day and that's REALLY great practice.  If have an androgynous name (or go with your initials), you just listen to what the person on the other end genders you as for an indication whether you pass or not.  Even if you don't have an especially andro name and can't use your initials, the other person will probably subconsciously gender your voice.

Right now it's a little funny.  I give my name over the phone and everyone seems to mishear it.  They never seem to call me "Tara."  The most common name they seem to give me?  Karen.  Well, if they're going to mishear my name, at least they're giving me a name with the correct gender. 

But in all seriousness, yeah, any job where you're talking on the phones for several hours is great voice practice.  It takes the visual cues out of the 'do I pass' equation and puts it all on voice.  I've also found that one of the biggest tricks to passing with voice isn't always achieving a natural sounding female voice, it's maintaining it.  This is something else this kind of work can help with.  You really learn to maintain it because the second you drop your guard, you become George the big, burly man-thing in the eyes of the caller.  Ok, yeah, that might sound like it sucks, but, really, keep your guard up for a while and your new voice becomes your natural voice.  Sometimes you might be able to raise your pitch a bit or something, but you'll still pass even if your guard is down.

One of the fastest ways to get a female voice is to ACTUALLY start living full time. The voice will change reasonably when the guy is gone.............

Quote from: Katie on September 24, 2018, 05:38:24 AM
One of the fastest ways to get a female voice is to ACTUALLY start living full time. The voice will change reasonably when the guy is gone.............

I wish I could say this was true.  Unfortunately, I've met more than a few trans women who have been full time but still have voices so deep you would swear they're trying to immitate Barry White.

Full time or not, it takes practice.  And to start things, the most important thing early on is learning to control our voices.  Most people go their whole lives without ever having to think about voice control, but if you want your voice to pass, you don't get that luxury (hell, it even seems to help trans guys pass better if they learn to make their voices deeper).  Just learn to talk with your head and not your chest; it's all about the part of your voice box you're actually using when you speak.

Talk like an ventriloquist. No, not a joke. The same principles apply. Diaphragmatic breathing
Pitch
Forward resonance 
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Voice

Hi ladies,

I've been using femalevoiceclub.com.   It's a web based m2f voice training system run by a voice therapist in California.  You receive a link to a weekly lesson on the web site and there are enough lessons for a year and a half.   The best part is you can send her a recording of your voice as you progress and she will critique the sample.

So far, it seems to be helpful

TaraJo has a point.   I'm not fulltime but I do volunteer as a receptionist at a local nonprofit.   Which means I answer the phone a lot.   My voice was doing well the day I was gendered three times by different callers.  Another day, it didn't feel quite right and the callers didn't say anything.

I recently started combining voice practice with the preparation for my next programming certification which means reading programming books out loud and trying my best to sound female. I record some of the sessions to be later analyzed and I sometimes use VocalPitchMonitor on Android as well.
It's so much fun to experiment with different styles and voices while reading a serious programming book :laugh:
It may not be the most effective method but I enjoy it way more this way :)

My current range is 120hz avg while speaking and 160hz when really trying to bring it up. Is this something I can fix with training, or do I need to just skip ahead to surgery?

You may also need to modulate your voice and enunciate words better.  Ending your sentences can be hard for some.  You can start learning this now, before surgery. When stressed, I end my sentences *exactly* like a woman.

Quote from: Maya2018 on December 19, 2018, 02:38:30 AM
My current range is 120hz avg while speaking and 160hz when really trying to bring it up. Is this something I can fix with training, or do I need to just skip ahead to surgery?

Be very careful with VFS surgery.  A terrible percentage have had their voice permanently damaged or even destroyed from surgery.  Also a few have had unrecoverable damage from an incompetent cosmetic tracheal shave.  If you are considering VFS, research carefully and literally talk to other patients, make your decision based on long term goals and not convenience (location). 

I am happy with my VFS and still healing (March 2018) but it doesn't magically solve speech.  Unlike other MtF surgeries, I'd call this an assist and not a complete solution as it helps with pitch but not all the other things that form speech.  I had professional voice training before VFS and then found I needed training after VFS.  I am still learning. 

VFS really is not always needed.

If you can get into the 180hz range and learn inflection and resonance the voice would be passable.

Even then I never had VFS and even so at the end of the day this is my typical speaking voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7A01nX-KiI

It really is possible. Part of what helps me is voice is I try to sing this every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eT2NoTYwNA

For 2019, feminine voice is my number one transitioning skill development priority.

I may pickup some of these apps and I will study this thread very carefully, very soon.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 19, 2018, 04:07:09 PM
For 2019, feminine voice is my number one transitioning skill development priority.

I may pickup some of these apps and I will study this thread very carefully, very soon.

Chrissy

I think maybe you would be interested in the Anyone interested? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,243108.0.html) thread as well.

I really love that this thread is still going!

I'm in the same boat as a previous poster, not on HRT, but practicing my voice because I can.

I've found two kinds of throat exercises that have had different effects for me, and my best results have come from combining them. I'm still working on the ratio of the two.

First is what I call "up", where I (with my throat muscles) pull my larynx straight up as if into the bottom of my mouth. I found that after a few weeks of this exercise alone my speaking pitch would go up, especially after holding this for more than 5 minutes at a time. I also found that this extended the upper end of my vocal range when I "sweep" my voice high - low - high.

The kicker is that my voice would still crack right around where I want it to be.

The second thing I've tried is "back" where j pull my larynx back into my neck, this also causes it to move upwards but not in the same way as "up", and it uses different neck muscles. After doing only this my vocal range didnt really change, but my voice would not crack as I sweep it high - low - high.

So I've found that combining both helps me get higher pitch and no cracking, I try to do this any time I walk someplace as I can do it pretty stealth, and i think that it has made a difference for me, I've been told i sound somewhat androgynous.

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 19, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
VFS really is not always needed.

If you can get into the 180hz range and learn inflection and resonance the voice would be passable.

Even then I never had VFS and even so at the end of the day this is my typical speaking voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7A01nX-KiI

It really is possible. Part of what helps me is voice is I try to sing this every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eT2NoTYwNA

Natalie,

Wow.   So "sing song" pleasant is your feminine voice.  This is an example of the beautiful enduring quality of female voice that I desire to achieve. 

I will work harder until I do.  I will be patient. 

You are an inspiration to me.  Thank you.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 20, 2018, 08:52:14 PM

Natalie,

Wow.   So "sing song" pleasant is your feminine voice.  This is an example of the beautiful enduring quality of female voice that I desire to achieve. 

I will work harder until I do.  I will be patient. 

You are an inspiration to me.  Thank you.

Chrissy

Thank you. My suggestion is follow along with the singing exercises and sing along with Queen songs. You'll strengthen your muscles. Think of the voice as a wind instrument. Once you find it keep practicing. I still have my issues but it all boils down to will and practice. Just do it. ;D

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 19, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
VFS really is not always needed.

If you can get into the 180hz range and learn inflection and resonance the voice would be passable.

Even then I never had VFS and even so at the end of the day this is my typical speaking voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7A01nX-KiI

It really is possible. Part of what helps me is voice is I try to sing this every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eT2NoTYwNA

I am a little shocked!  I have a hard time to reach the low D!  It makes m y throat hurt a little each time I have to hit that low DO.
But again, I have no problem with the pitch of my voice, but that darn speech pattern is what bothers me!

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 19, 2018, 01:07:35 PM
VFS really is not always needed.

If you can get into the 180hz range and learn inflection and resonance the voice would be passable.

Even then I never had VFS and even so at the end of the day this is my typical speaking voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7A01nX-KiI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7A01nX-KiI)

It really is possible. Part of what helps me is voice is I try to sing this every day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eT2NoTYwNA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eT2NoTYwNA)

Wait... Is this your voice? :o Are you sure you are not a cis female singer? :) I have a looong way to go :icon_cry:..

Quote from: Lynne on December 21, 2018, 07:43:41 AM
Wait... Is this your voice? :o Are you sure you are not a cis female singer? :) I have a looong way to go :icon_cry:..

Only the top one is me. The second one is just an exercise I found that helps me.

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 21, 2018, 08:22:27 AM
Only the top one is me. The second one is just an exercise I found that helps me.

Even if only the top one is you.. wow..

I played a little with the Voice Pitch Analyzer app, to see at what pitch I could read the entire "Dorian Grey" text, without taking a break during reading (not for water, either).
When I worked a little on it it, I reached a max of 299 Hz, and an average of 220 Hz.  My min average was 181 Hz, my max average was 258 Hz.  Which means, I am in the middle of the female range, with the high frequencies being higher than the average female range. 
But I don't like the sound of my voice in this range, it sounds very metallic (I would compare it to a male tenor voice).  I am sure that I could maintain this pitch, if I would work a little on it.

But my more natural voice has a max average of 237 Hz, and  an average of 195 Hz.  I like the sound of this voice better, it is softer, and that is the voice I have when I sing mezzo soprano.  I think I will cultivate this voice level more, and work on it, to get off of that stupid male speech pattern.

Interesting is that it slowly seems to get harder for me to continuously talk in a lower pitch male voice level, which was, of course never very natural for me, but I learned how to do it.  Now I have to fully unlearn it again!

I am trying to get a study group together to work on voice training. I plan to start the first of the year.  I am using the training material I got from Emily, my voice trainer. The idea is to gather weekly for about ten weeks. Since Susan's has a base from around the world we will more than likely shoot for 10 A.M. here which translates to 6:00 P.M. London time. I live in the Pacific Time Zone. Right now we have five participants who have expressed interest. I plan to start a blog in the next week or so to post more information such as Agenda, references, Skype information. Q and A.  I want to make sure we all know I am not a Speech Pathologist but I did stay at the Holiday Express. Seriously, I spent quite a bit of time with Emily over the last year. Besides voice, I plan to cover presentation, mannerisms, confidence and putting it all together.  Please send a PM if you want to be included. Before you consider surgery, why not give this a try. 

Dawn

Quote from: Dietlind on December 21, 2018, 09:07:29 AM
I played a little with the Voice Pitch Analyzer app, to see at what pitch I could read the entire "Dorian Grey" text, without taking a break during reading (not for water, either).
When I worked a little on it it, I reached a max of 299 Hz, and an average of 220 Hz.  My min average was 181 Hz, my max average was 258 Hz.  Which means, I am in the middle of the female range, with the high frequencies being higher than the average female range. 
But I don't like the sound of my voice in this range, it sounds very metallic (I would compare it to a male tenor voice).  I am sure that I could maintain this pitch, if I would work a little on it.

But my more natural voice has a max average of 237 Hz, and  an average of 195 Hz.  I like the sound of this voice better, it is softer, and that is the voice I have when I sing mezzo soprano.  I think I will cultivate this voice level more, and work on it, to get off of that stupid male speech pattern.

Interesting is that it slowly seems to get harder for me to continuously talk in a lower pitch male voice level, which was, of course never very natural for me, but I learned how to do it.  Now I have to fully unlearn it again!

My voice cracks at low levels but I don't like to use it. The train how you fight and you fight how you train. That was something my Captain told me in high school Naval NJROTC and it stuck with me. If you keep using the male voice pattern it becomes more difficult for the feminine voice to be the muscle memory.

Quote from: DawnOday on December 21, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
I am trying to get a study group together to work on voice training. I plan to start the first of the year.  I am using the training material I got from Emily, my voice trainer. The idea is to gather weekly for about ten weeks. Since Susan's has a base from around the world we will more than likely shoot for 10 A.M. here which translates to 6:00 P.M. London time. I live in the Pacific Time Zone. Right now we have five participants who have expressed interest. I plan to start a blog in the next week or so to post more information such as Agenda, references, Skype information. Q and A.  I want to make sure we all know I am not a Speech Pathologist but I did stay at the Holiday Express. Seriously, I spent quite a bit of time with Emily over the last year. Besides voice, I plan to cover presentation, mannerisms, confidence and putting it all together.  Please send a PM if you want to be included. Before you consider surgery, why not give this a try. 

Dawn

I'm in but I cannot join in the meetings until after the 2nd of January. I have a list of Skype addresses that where provided to me by people here and one from the forum formerly known as Laura's Playground. When I get back to the computer I'll send them to you. This shouldn't e a breach of trust as it is for the same purpose the sent me their accounts for. Those who pm'd me let me know before this evening if you object and I'll withhold your account name.  ;D

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 20, 2018, 09:55:14 PM
Thank you. My suggestion is follow along with the singing exercises and sing along with Queen songs. You'll strengthen your muscles. Think of the voice as a wind instrument. Once you find it keep practicing. I still have my issues but it all boils down to will and practice. Just do it. ;D

I will do it.

When you said to sing along with Queen songs, do you mean songs sung by the performing group Queen, who sang the song, "We Are Champions"?

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 21, 2018, 06:18:59 PM

I will do it.

When you said to sing along with Queen songs, do you mean songs sung by the performing group Queen, who sang the song, "We Are Champions"?

Chrissy

Yes. That's them.

Quote from: DawnOday on December 21, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
I am trying to get a study group together to work on voice training. I plan to start the first of the year.  I am using the training material I got from Emily, my voice trainer. The idea is to gather weekly for about ten weeks. Since Susan's has a base from around the world we will more than likely shoot for 10 A.M. here which translates to 6:00 P.M. London time. I live in the Pacific Time Zone. Right now we have five participants who have expressed interest. I plan to start a blog in the next week or so to post more information such as Agenda, references, Skype information. Q and A.  I want to make sure we all know I am not a Speech Pathologist but I did stay at the Holiday Express. Seriously, I spent quite a bit of time with Emily over the last year. Besides voice, I plan to cover presentation, mannerisms, confidence and putting it all together.  Please send a PM if you want to be included. Before you consider surgery, why not give this a try. 

Dawn

6 P.M. London time would be great for me at weekends but really early for me on weekdays. Count me in if we can arrange weekends. :) Thank you!

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 21, 2018, 10:35:50 AM
My voice cracks at low levels but I don't like to use it. The train how you fight and you fight how you train. That was something my Captain told me in high school Naval NJROTC and it stuck with me. If you keep using the male voice pattern it becomes more difficult for the feminine voice to be the muscle memory.

I was out and about the entire day, stuffing my face with greasy food, and doing some shopping.
But... and that is far more important, I was able to talk the entire day in my natural voice, without slipping once into the male stuff.  I just was all woman, from clothing to voice!  The whole 10 yards!  This shows that I can do it, I just have to do it!
If that continues, the to of us can start to sing as a duet, you as soprano, and I am as mezzo soprano!
We could go around doing Christmas corralling!  :angel:  ;)

Yes. Singing Bohemian Rhapsody helps make a girly voice, just watch this three year old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCf6adt2t4

The kid seems to have no problem with the typical male speech pattern slipping into low notes at the end of phrases!

Quote from: DawnOday on December 22, 2018, 06:36:52 PM
Yes. Singing Bohemian Rhapsody helps make a girly voice, just watch this three year old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFCf6adt2t4

that was adorable

Something strange happened today and it's not the first time. I've got a bit of a cold and I'm feeling a little weak, my throat is a little sore but for an hour or so I could easily speak at higher than usual frequencies without seemingly any strain at all and with very little effort I could make sounds that I would gender female any time. Also my voice was a lot less raspy than usual.
Why? Why now? How? :D

Quote from: Lynne on December 24, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
Something strange happened today and it's not the first time. I've got a bit of a cold and I'm feeling a little weak, my throat is a little sore but for an hour or so I could easily speak at higher than usual frequencies without seemingly any strain at all and with very little effort I could make sounds that I would gender female any time. Also my voice was a lot less raspy than usual.
Why? Why now? How? :D

Probably mucous on your vocal cords acted like shortening them, while, at the same time, kept them lubricated?

Quote from: Lynne on December 24, 2018, 04:57:24 PM
Something strange happened today and it's not the first time. I've got a bit of a cold and I'm feeling a little weak, my throat is a little sore but for an hour or so I could easily speak at higher than usual frequencies without seemingly any strain at all and with very little effort I could make sounds that I would gender female any time. Also my voice was a lot less raspy than usual.
Why? Why now? How? :D

Enjoy your voice while you have it and build up your muscles so you can retain it.

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 24, 2018, 06:39:52 PM
Enjoy your voice while you have it and build up your muscles so you can retain it.

I'm doing just that, having great fun, can't believe I can make these sounds! I hope I won't forget how to do that.

Quote from: Lynne on December 24, 2018, 07:17:39 PM
I'm doing just that, having great fun, can't believe I can make these sounds! I hope I won't forget how to do that.

How about taking a picture of your Adams Apple to see in which position it is, when you get the hih pitch.  later you might want to try to reach that position again?

Quote from: Dietlind on December 24, 2018, 07:30:08 PM
How about taking a picture of your Adams Apple to see in which position it is, when you get the hih pitch.  later you might want to try to reach that position again?

I thought about setting up a camera pointing at my neck to see the differences, the only 'problem' is that my neck is quite short and my Adams Apple is not really visible. It might still be worthwhile because some differences should still be visible.

I am doing my daily scales and triads.

I have no idea if I am at the right pitch when I start them, but I do try to go up and down an equal "interval" between each "tone" to sing.  So I may be singing "too low" but I am singing higher than the usual.  I figure this has got to be helping me.

Thank you NatalieRene.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 24, 2018, 07:52:11 PM
I am doing my daily scales and triads.

I have no idea if I am at the right pitch when I start them, but I do try to go up and down an equal "interval" between each "tone" to sing.  So I may be singing "too low" but I am singing higher than the usual.  I figure this has got to be helping me.

Thank you NatalieRene.

Chrissy

You're welcome. You can track your pitch with a pitch recording software program on your computer ardor phone.

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 25, 2018, 01:56:38 PM
You're welcome. You can track your pitch with a pitch recording software program on your computer ardor phone.

Would that software be able to tell me what pitch each of the tones are at on that scales and triads video you posted?  That is so I can try to match the same pitches for each tone on the video.

Chrissy

The voice analyst app on the iPhone will show the frequency and while playing there is a time indicator on the chart. You would have to figure out what notes the frequencies represent though.

I guess I could eventually get higher and higher with the pitch while doing the scales and triads video. If I go up and down the same interval while doing the video, that would help overall.  If I use the actual pitches in the video, that gives me the goal for each tone.  It would be nice if that video showed the pitch for each tone. 

I probably could get by with knowing the actual pitch for about the first few seconds of each sequence on the video, so I will start each sequence, if possible, at the right pitch.  I cannot tell by ear if I match the pitch of the video as I sing the tones.  If I sing at too low a pitch, that may not help, at least not until I get the pitch higher and higher over time, which is the goal.  Measuring my evolving pitch with the tool you mentioned earlier would be good.

With that said, I will need to work on inflection and resonance also. 

Thank you for your help, you are very thoughtful.

Chrissy

The triads are the hardest part of the daily training video for me to do, as my voice can crack if I try to keep up with the singing pace of the tones.

I have found that drinking something occasionally helps while I try to sing the tones.

I noticed that there is a daily video number two, scales and pentachords. 

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 26, 2018, 07:37:03 AM
The triads are the hardest part of the daily training video for me to do, as my voice can crack if I try to keep up with the singing pace of the tones.

I have found that drinking something occasionally helps while I try to sing the tones.

I noticed that there is a daily video number two, scales and pentachords. 

Chrissy

You are talking way over my head!  I am the person who the family did not allow to even sing while in the shower, because they were afraid that the neighbors still could hear me.  With other words, music/singing and I were not made for each other, and now you come with pentachords, of which I have no idea what they are!
What is a pentachord pretty please?

Quote from: Dietlind on December 26, 2018, 08:29:16 AM
You are talking way over my head!  I am the person who the family did not allow to even sing while in the shower, because they were afraid that the neighbors still could hear me.  With other words, music/singing and I were not made for each other, and now you come with pentachords, of which I have no idea what they are!
What is a pentachord pretty please?

Well I take pentachord to mean as a series of five notes.  Practically speaking, in context of the practice videos, you work with a series of five tones instead of three.  You go up and down five instead of three steps or tones.  The videos do not show "sheet music" it just goes through whole or partial tonal scales.

There are more definitions you can look-up online but they do get a bit complicated unless you are well versed in a significant amount of music theory.  Someone here may correct me if I misstated.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 26, 2018, 10:59:20 AM

Well I take pentachord to mean as a series of five notes.  Practically speaking, in context of the practice videos, you work with a series of five tones instead of three.  You go up and down five instead of three steps or tones.  The videos do not show "sheet music" it just goes through whole or partial tonal scales.

There are more definitions you can look-up online but they do get a bit complicated unless you are well versed in a significant amount of music theory.  Someone here may correct me if I misstated.

Thank you for the explanation.  I do not need any more detail, I have a hard time to comprehend what you are telling me!  You have to understand that I have about the same music knowledge like a new born.
Music instruments are mysterious devices for me.  I am way better versed with a sternum saw or a cauterizer!

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 26, 2018, 07:37:03 AM
The triads are the hardest part of the daily training video for me to do, as my voice can crack if I try to keep up with the singing pace of the tones.

I have found that drinking something occasionally helps while I try to sing the tones.

I noticed that there is a daily video number two, scales and pentachords. 

Chrissy

Try not to overstrain and as you practice over time your voice will get stronger.

Quote from: DawnOday on December 21, 2018, 10:00:40 AM
I am trying to get a study group together to work on voice training. I plan to start the first of the year.  I am using the training material I got from Emily, my voice trainer. The idea is to gather weekly for about ten weeks. Since Susan's has a base from around the world we will more than likely shoot for 10 A.M. here which translates to 6:00 P.M. London time. I live in the Pacific Time Zone. Right now we have five participants who have expressed interest. I plan to start a blog in the next week or so to post more information such as Agenda, references, Skype information. Q and A.  I want to make sure we all know I am not a Speech Pathologist but I did stay at the Holiday Express. Seriously, I spent quite a bit of time with Emily over the last year. Besides voice, I plan to cover presentation, mannerisms, confidence and putting it all together.  Please send a PM if you want to be included. Before you consider surgery, why not give this a try. 

Dawn

I don't seem to be able to send PMs for some reason, but this would be fab as I really want to put in more work on my voice in the New Year. I live in the UK.

Quote from: Wirral girl on December 27, 2018, 09:59:30 AM
I don't seem to be able to send PMs for some reason, but this would be fab as I really want to put in more work on my voice in the New Year. I live in the UK.

Hi Wirral girl,
Private Messaging is enabled after a number of posts have been made.  Details are in Dena's reply to your first post, or if you need the introductory links re-sent let me know and I'll re-post them here.  :) Thanks

Natalie,

I do wish to again express my appreciation for your help here with voice training ideas.
This is a vital area for me to master.

I hope you have a great 2019 too.  Happy New Year!


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 31, 2018, 08:01:53 PM
Natalie,

I do wish to again express my appreciation for your help here with voice training ideas.
This is a vital area for me to master.

I hope you have a great 2019 too.  Happy New Year!


Chrissy

I'm thinking that we should be starting soon. I'll be back at the apartment in the evening the day after tomorrow.

Once you get your pitch good you just need to practice projecting your voice from your mouth and feel the ringing. Then the hardest part is the inflection. Pretend you are singing your sentence. That part took me a while.

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 31, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
I'm thinking that we should be starting soon. I'll be back at the apartment in the evening the day after tomorrow.

Once you get your pitch good you just need to practice projecting your voice from your mouth and feel the ringing. Then the hardest part is the inflection. Pretend you are singing your sentence. That part took me a while.

Hoe on earth do you project your voice from your mouth, or how do you control it?  I open my mouth, and voice sounds come out of it!
I have no vibration in my chest when I talk, it is more in my throat, or upper neck part.  That means, I do not create a lot of low sounds.  I have no clue what projection means, either!

During a dinner cruise tonight, my friend and I were sitting at a table with another couple.  We had about 2 hours worth of conversation, and as we left, the couple said, it was really nice meeting you ladies.  My voice must not have been giving me away, I assume!  But I did nothing else than trying to avoid the low pitch sentence endings.


Happy New Yer to all of you here in the voice training camp!

Quote from: NatalieRene on December 31, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
I'm thinking that we should be starting soon. I'll be back at the apartment in the evening the day after tomorrow.

Once you get your pitch good you just need to practice projecting your voice from your mouth and feel the ringing. Then the hardest part is the inflection. Pretend you are singing your sentence. That part took me a while.

My first day at work this year will be on the 7th so I'm mostly free every day until then. Except today morning, I just got home(at 8 AM), I need some sleep.

Quote from: Dietlind on December 31, 2018, 09:24:01 PM
Hoe on earth do you project your voice from your mouth, or how do you control it?  I open my mouth, and voice sounds come out of it!
I have no vibration in my chest when I talk, it is more in my throat, or upper neck part.  That means, I do not create a lot of low sounds.  I have no clue what projection means, either!

During a dinner cruise tonight, my friend and I were sitting at a table with another couple.  We had about 2 hours worth of conversation, and as we left, the couple said, it was really nice meeting you ladies.  My voice must not have been giving me away, I assume!  But I did nothing else than trying to avoid the low pitch sentence endings.


Happy New Yer to all of you here in the voice training camp!

It's kind of hard to explain but if it is coming from your throat you pretty much have it. Do you know how a projector in a movie theater throws its image to the screen? All voices are projected it's just how are they.

If you have the resonance then the next step is inflection through tone rather then volume level. Also you should practice yelling, singing coughing and sneezing. I know it sounds silly but it will help in day to day if this is practiced to start building muscle memory.

Quote from: NatalieRene on January 01, 2019, 11:28:16 AM
It's kind of hard to explain but if it is coming from your throat you pretty much have it. Do you know how a projector in a movie theater throws its image to the screen? All voices are projected it's just how are they.

If you have the resonance then the next step is inflection through tone rather then volume level. Also you should practice yelling, singing coughing and sneezing. I know it sounds silly but it will help in day to day if this is practiced to start building muscle memory.

Fascinating, this is.

Chrissy

Quote from: NatalieRene on January 01, 2019, 11:28:16 AM


If you have the resonance then the next step is inflection through tone rather then volume level. Also you should practice yelling, singing coughing and sneezing. I know it sounds silly but it will help in day to day if this is practiced to start building muscle memory.

I can yell louder with a higher pitch than I can do with a lower (masculine) pitch.  The low pitch hurts my throat a little.  I know that I sing higher than I  normally talk.  I think my biggest problem is this pattern that I always fall to the low end at the end of a sentence.  It is an absolute learned behavior, but it is very hard to unlearn.
You were still pretty young when you became female, and probably were still way more pliable concerning your behaviors.  I am an old hag, and changing this old girl is not that easy!

I keep practicing.   :)

Wishing you all well with your voice training too...   :)


Chrissy

Maybe we all should just hop on skype sometime and just talk.

I still have a really bad cold, but that has the advantage that my voice seems not to have any base anymore.  The absolutely lowest frequency I could get was 206 Hz, but I could not get higher than 250 hz either.  AA pretty flat and wimpy sounding voice.