Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Me and my husband was in line to check out at the library. The check out lady was checking out another woman and I was the next to get checked out so she called for help and the woman she was checking out didn't hear her so she told the lady that she was calling someone to check "him" out, my husband claims she was referring to him, but he had walked in line after me and was standing behind me far enough that if no one knew we were together they would think I was checking out by myself, plus I was holding the movies so of course she was referring to me. I don't understand why she called me a "him" I don't look boyish and even earlier today I got called mam, this lady called me male pronouns before. How can she think I'm a boy when  I look female. It's aggravating since I've been on hormones for 2 1/2 years. It's happen a few times this months where people referred to me as a male pronouns, it makes me question whether I even look female.

I don't want compliment. I want to know why this could be happening.

Could be just a slip of a tongue, someone just so used to saying him or even sometimes being ESL that also happen quite a lot, especially for those coming from language with no specific gender call (ie. In my native language the word for him/her is exactly the same word)
No need to dissect it further unless if the person keep doing it all the time.

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sounds like a slip of the tongue.  I've heard your voice clips, and seen your full body shots in the Fabulous threads... It's definitely NOT that you look anything less than attractive.

Is it possible someone might be telling your secret? I find that many of the misgendering can come from someone seeking attention by outing others. I know, it's pitiful. Unfortunately, some people are like that.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on August 01, 2018, 06:46:40 PM
Is it possible someone might be telling your secret? I find that many of the misgendering can come from someone seeking attention by outing others. I know, it's pitiful. Unfortunately, some people are like that.

me and my husband moved so no one knows me in our current city which is New orleans.

The first thing people do to determine your gender is look at your size and shape.  They also factor in how you move, if you are moving.  It may be that these two factors create an "initial" guess.  It does for me.  There are very few men shorter than me.  And those short men usually don't have anything like a feminine shape with a narrow waist, hips, and attractive legs. Men usually move straight ahead, while women typically have a pronounced side to side motion.  Watch a male/female couple and compare it to how a pair of girls walk together.  First guesses have a habit of coming out of people's mouths whether they want to or not.  Especially when multi-tasking.  Which you need to do these days if you are running a cash register or library computer 

@Angélique LaCava
Hi Angelique,  I looked through some of your photos, physically you look very pretty and completely passable, I have not seen any videos of you ( would love to though if you could post a link...) if there is something giving you away then it might either be your voice or the gait of your walk, or perhaps certain mannerisms.  One very feminine looking girl on Susans was outed by her teeth! - male teeth are different from female teeth - it was her dental hygenist - who she is currently dating!!.... (@AlaskanDanielle)  So it could be something quite unique.

The first thing I do when I'm not sure someones gender is look at their hips to waist to shoulders, second I look at the bone structure in their face,  jaw, chin, brow.  I can't see any giveaways in your pics, so I'm assuming its something else she noticed. 

You look great btw,

Sonja.

I appreciate the responses. I do pay attention when I walk and I do away my hips. My
body measurements are 34"26"35 1/2" so it can't be my body. I also do sound quite feminine. I really can't think of any way she knew because I've had people say I look nothing like a transgender and those people actually are friends with some. My husband gets mad at me anytime I say someone uses a male pronouns he says I'm hearing wrong, but I know what I hear when I hear it. This lady refers to me as a he every single time she sees me. Next time I go to the library I'm going to make sure I wear makeup, more feminine clothes and see what she says, because usually I don't wear makeup,i wear my hair in a ponytail,loose shirt, skinny jeans, and sneakers.

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 01, 2018, 08:01:34 PM
I appreciate the responses. I do pay attention when I walk and I do away my hips. My
body measurements are 34"26"35 1/2" so it can't be my body. I also do sound quite feminine. I really can't think of any way she knew because I've had people say I look nothing like a transgender and those people actually are friends with some. My husband gets mad at me anytime I say someone uses a male pronouns he says I'm hearing wrong, but I know what I hear when I hear it. This lady refers to me as a he every single time she sees me. Next time I go to the library I'm going to make sure I wear makeup, more feminine clothes and see what she says, because usually I don't wear makeup,i wear my hair in a ponytail,loose shirt, skinny jeans, and sneakers.

@Angélique LaCava
What books do you check out at the library? maybe it was something in that, that gave her a clue?

If I was you I would politely say to her "Did you know I'm transgender?" if she says "yes" ask her "what is it that made you so sure?"  and see what she says.

can't help to ask.

Sonja.

Sonja.

She clocked you. People do that and feel righteous and compelled to make their point. I think only go with makeup, clothes and hair done if that's what you want to do. I completely understand when it keeps happening it becomes depressing.
I know friends who always go out with makeup and that probably does help at least stop misgendering.


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Quote from: Allison S on August 01, 2018, 08:23:31 PM
She clocked you. People do that and feel righteous and compelled to make their point. I think only go with makeup, clothes and hair done if that's what you want to do. I completely understand when it keeps happening it becomes depressing.
I know friends who always go out with makeup and that probably does help at least stop misgendering.


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it's just confuses me to why it sometimes happens since people are giving me mixed signals. Like one group says I'm hot and they couldn't tell, another says your hot but I can see things that gives it away, then others just say that they can just tell

I had a bra on too. My hair is really really long and actually my own. I even had on a pink shirt. It's like she was doing it to be rude. I wss wanted to tell her something woohoo bad. I think next time I see her I will.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. It sounds like you may be right that she's being rude. I think if you see her again you should say something.
People's reactions to us makes it harder than it should be.

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Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 01, 2018, 08:31:28 PM
I had a bra on too. My hair is really really long and actually my own. I even had on a pink shirt. It's like she was doing it to be rude. I wss wanted to tell her something woohoo bad. I think next time I see her I will.

You might consider returning the favor and misgendering her in return.

I was talking to a ciswoman who this happened to the other day.
She just asked the person direct, "I'm a woman. What made you think I'm a man?"
The person answered her right away. "It was the clothes you were wearing."
She got her answer right away.

"ok, so why do you think some people have no idea that I'm transgender? Since that's your opinion of the scenario. Also I've seen natural born women who look more masculine than me get called mam. So from what your saying is she thought I looked like a man? Because ultimately if someone looks androgynous you wouldn't use a pronoun. The only time you would is if your 100% sure which in turns mean I look nothing like a female if I follow what your saying."

Most married and younger tgs that are confident they pass are not on Susans. They are getting on with their lives. The older generation here, face more issues and many just want to help and give advise. Be confident of who you are.

Some people are just jerks.. Unless you have done a lot of practice it sometimes it's easy to lower your pitch especially towards the end of sentences. I'm not saying that is happening to you, but you asked for possibilities. That's roughly where I am now and my voice coach gets on me. I'm sorry some people just don't get it. What ever happened to the idea of live and let live. By the way. You look very feminine and I have been impressed by you since I started on here two years ago. Sorry I didn't mean to compliment you. Yes I did. Just let go and move on. I know what it means to hold grudges and it can tear you apart. Just know your hubby loves you for who you are and not much else matters. Nothing matters more than family. That's my wifes mantra.

Your reaction is also a big clue.  A passive response is feminine, while guys respond aggressively.

A passive response would be to either let it drop, or thank/compliment her and ask how she did it.

Quote from: warlockmaker on August 01, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
"ok, so why do you think some people have no idea that I'm transgender? Since that's your opinion of the scenario. Also I've seen natural born women who look more masculine than me get called mam. So from what your saying is she thought I looked like a man? Because ultimately if someone looks androgynous you wouldn't use a pronoun. The only time you would is if your 100% sure which in turns mean I look nothing like a female if I follow what your saying."

Most married and younger tgs that are confident they pass are not on Susans. They are getting on with their lives. The older generation here, face more issues and many just want to help and give advise. Be confident of who you are.

that didn't answer my question. Seems more like your tiring to be mean and put me down than anything, but trying to hide it with kindness. I've tricked people just so you know so I must pass to some extent. I'm just going to ask her before I let it bother me anymore, because like others said it could have been a mistake or anything, for all I know it had nothing to do with my looks. I'm also one of those married transgenders thats married to a straight man that you mentioned in your comment. In my originally post I asked why it could be happening not state everything that's wrong with me physically. You can give me reasons to why it's happening so I can look for myself in person and pay more attention without telling me YOUR opinion of my looks because just because YOU think I look masculine and not passable doesn't mean that's everyone's opinion of me.

Either she clocked you, or someone told her.  Given the obvious clues of your appearance, there is no way she just got it wrong by accident.

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 01, 2018, 08:31:28 PM
It's like she was doing it to be rude.

That, to me, is the most likely explanation.

I would just tell her the next time that your pronouns are she/her and see how she reacts.  If she gives you any grief, remember that she has a boss and, at least on paper, a duty to be polite to library patrons.

Quote from: KathyLauren on August 02, 2018, 06:53:30 AM
Either she clocked you, or someone told her.  Given the obvious clues of your appearance, there is no way she just got it wrong by accident.

That, to me, is the most likely explanation.

I would just tell her the next time that your pronouns are she/her and see how she reacts.  If she gives you any grief, remember that she has a boss and, at least on paper, a duty to be polite to library patrons.

ok. So how can some people think I'm a natural born woman and then some people think I'm a man?

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 02, 2018, 07:36:18 AM
ok. So how can some people think I'm a natural born woman and then some people think I'm a man?

Angélique, I'm going to stick my nose in even though I probably should not.

That question is a loaded magic question for every trans out there, be it mtf or mtf. "Why and I seen as XX rather than XX"

What I have seen is with the prevalence of news regarding trans, more and more people are aware and looking. In your case, that person may have an agenda against anyone trans and is on the lookout. I suspect that she's likely accused cis women of the same thing, secure in her personal conviction that's she's figured it out. In your case, she just happened to be correct.

If/when you choose to correct her, I would not state in any way shape or form that you're trans. I would correct her until it sinks on or refuse to acknowledge her when waiting for help, wait for someone else. If you're really put out about it, lodge a complaint but not to her, to her boss/management.

Try not to let her get to you. You are probably not doing anything wrong and worrying over it will erode your confidence unnecessarily.

I usually clock other transwoman by mannerism, I mean if you been on HRT for only 2 and a half years its possible you still a few manly mannerisms they may be subtle but noticeable for those few looking? Not attacking just proposing a possibility.

Also I am in my 20s and part of what is know as weeb culture. Many weeb men know that to spot as trap look at bone structure above the chest if its noticable its a trap. I myself have been clocked in cosplay due to my bone structure above my chest, I mean this isnt science just something I learnt people look out for. Sorry if the term trap offends anyone I never pay cliches much mind I am just contextualizing a culture.

I find it mystifying based on your photo. You clearly pass from what I can see. Personally I've been called out for being FtM, which is totally wrong because I am MtF, but anyhow that is a different story.

A few questions may help to clarify.
Are your behaviors gender fluid? Granted even if so it does not indicate a reason to call you male. I've met many gender fluid women who by all account have more generally considered male personality traits than myself.

Is this the only person who does this? If so, this person has issues. I would more on.

Personally I would advise the person to use the correct pronoun. I would respond with a quick one line statement such as, "You need to address me correctly when you are speaking to me or about me."

Since I went full-time I remember each misgendering incident vividly. In no case do I believe it was done maliciously. The first couple of times were devastating. The last one was just this last weekend. I know it was my own fault due to my presentation, and it was one of those, "sir... ma'am!... sorry!" moments where she immediately corrected herself.

Some people are amazingly good at picking up the tiniest gender cues. They probably don't even know they're doing it, and run with the first thing that enters their head, especially if they're hurried and only get a micro-second glance.

After the first time it happened I came up with a line that I always intended to use if it happened again. Instead of getting belligerent or outing myself, I'd just incredulously ask, "Do I look like a guy to you?!" That would force them to take a closer look, and believe me, Angelique, when anyone looks close, they'll see your true feminine self. They'll either be embarrassed and correct themselves, or, if it was deliberate, will start a showdown, and you can decide whether to escalate the confrontation or not. Having your husband there as an ally would be invaluable to your defense. What I would not do is out myself to them. You are a woman, and admitting you are trans would remove any doubt the people around your misgenderer might have about who is correct.

BTW, I haven't had a chance to use the line yet. The next time it happened was so fast and unexpected I didn't remember it, and this last weekend the situation was self-correcting, so it wasn't necessary.

Good luck, and try not to let it get to you (yes, I should listen to my own advice...).


Stephanie

Sometimes the people who clock you are trans too, or has trans friends so they're able to know and like to spread that fact to get you to---well I don't know why. Second guess yourself? Or empathize? To start a conversation? Depending on the person.

Let me know if you ever find out  ::)

Oh and New Orleans is a great place! NOLA might be used to it. I live an hour away so she might've just been used to a few MTFs or FTMs. Sometimes people just suck though and are bitter about life. Pay no mind to those.

 :police:

I've cleaned out some posts.

I'm pretty disappointed by some of the remarks. You all know better.

If a post upsets you report it. If you can't say something useful then don't say it and if you want to pick a fight go somewhere else and pick it.


I shall remind everyone of TOS10

10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term. The same restriction applies to advocating the removal of the T from GLBT.
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others.
Posting any topic or making any post that suggests that Trans people are not really men (FTM) or women (MTF), even if done for the purposes of criticism or discussion.
Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.


Cindy

Quote from: Maid Marion on August 02, 2018, 05:02:59 AM
Your reaction is also a big clue.  A passive response is feminine, while guys respond aggressively.

A passive response would be to either let it drop, or thank/compliment her and ask how she did it.

I don't know. Different situations call for different reactions. I see many men give passive responses and I think depending on the situation, whether male or female, it comes off as being a doormat.

Also there's butch women usually lesbian who are very aggressive in a masculine way and people still see them as women. Women with an edge even. So why as transgender women be so critical?

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Idk fam. You look pretty female in your profile pic. 🤷‍♀️
It might have just been an accident. 🤔

Another clue is the appropriateness of what you are wearing.

I wear different clothes if I plan to visit the garden center versus going to the Mall.
GGs wear different clothes in the evening versus daytime.

Yes, it is a hassle to constantly change clothes.  So there are helpful articles on how to compromise and still be fashionable. 

It was rather jarring when I first saw fully dressed hookers in the grocery store.  But, why not?  That store is right next to the most well known "no tell motels" in the state.  Even the kids in town know that. There is an upscale grocery store down the street and I've never seen a dressed hooker in that store.

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 02, 2018, 07:36:18 AM
ok. So how can some people think I'm a natural born woman and then some people think I'm a man?

Some don't evaluate others.  Some are less discerning than others.  Some people think they know everything and are always looking for something to point out, that in their opinion, doesn't fit their normal pattern of experience. 

It doesn't matter what you wear, you look generally female and that should be enough, in my opinion.  If someone calls you out, then they're the >-bleeped-<.
Most people use the face and voice to make the initial gender determination, secondarily dress and mannerisms. 

Also, I disagree with the permanent classification of being trans*.   Transition (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transition), by definition, is transitory and has an end.  But, again, that is just my opinion, and I put it out there for my 2 cents. :)

Quote from: ainsley on August 03, 2018, 07:11:30 AMAlso, I disagree with the permanent classification of being trans*.   Transition (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transition), by definition, is transitory and has an end.  But, again, that is just my opinion, and I put it out there for my 2 cents. :)

Well said, Ainsley. While every person sets their own goals, mine is to some day finish transition and just be me, a woman, without the trans prefix. Your two cents is worth every penny!



Stephanie

Quote from: Maid Marion on August 03, 2018, 06:56:37 AM
Another clue is the appropriateness of what you are wearing.

I wear different clothes if I plan to visit the garden center versus going to the Mall.
GGs wear different clothes in the evening versus daytime.

Yes, it is a hassle to constantly change clothes.  So there are helpful articles on how to compromise and still be fashionable. 

It was rather jarring when I first saw fully dressed hookers in the grocery store.  But, why not?  That store is right next to the most well known "no tell motels" in the state.  Even the kids in town know that. There is an upscale grocery store down the street and I've never seen a dressed hooker in that store.

I can be fashionable if I wanted to, but I honestly like to dress comfortable. I'm married so it's not like I'm trying to attract anyone so I just keep myself up enough that I still look pretty, but def not like I used to when I was single, now I save all those nice clothes and makeup for special occations.

First, be sure she wasn't referring to your husband. It's easy to get paranoid and start seeing offenses where none were intended. Second, if it continues and you are sure it is directed at you, politely but firmly correct her. If it continues after that, ask to speak to the manager and complain about her rude behaviour. No need to drastically alter your wardrobe or dissect every little aspect of your life. Some people are just jerks, but letting them upset you so much gives them way more power than they deserve.

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on August 01, 2018, 04:55:52 PM
Me and my husband was in line to check out at the library. The check out lady was checking out another woman and I was the next to get checked out so she called for help and the woman she was checking out didn't hear her so she told the lady that she was calling someone to check "him" out, my husband claims she was referring to him, but he had walked in line after me and was standing behind me far enough that if no one knew we were together they would think I was checking out by myself, plus I was holding the movies so of course she was referring to me. I don't understand why she called me a "him" I don't look boyish and even earlier today I got called mam, this lady called me male pronouns before. How can she think I'm a boy when  I look female. It's aggravating since I've been on hormones for 2 1/2 years. It's happen a few times this months where people referred to me as a male pronouns, it makes me question whether I even look female.

Going just by what you wrote, I would agree with your husband and presume that the librarian was referring to him.  True, "... if no one knew we were together they would think I was checking out by myself ..." but they DID know that you were together and especially from women, it is still men who tend to get the attention.

I have only seen your avatar but you are enviably beautiful.

Quote from: ainsley on August 03, 2018, 07:11:30 AM
...
Also, I disagree with the permanent classification of being trans*.   Transition (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transition), by definition, is transitory and has an end.  But, again, that is just my opinion, and I put it out there for my 2 cents. :)

Unless I am mistaken (and I often am), "being trans" is short for "being transgender", not for "being in transition".

Quote from: MaryT on August 03, 2018, 10:52:12 AM
Unless I am mistaken (and I often am), "being trans" is short for "being transgender", not for "being in transition".

Semantics.  :)

If you have gender confirmation surgery, or sex reassignment surgery, or gender reassignment surgery, then you are not technically transgender.  You are the gender you align with and, thus, not trans.  But, again, it is semantics.

Caution, I tend to wax philosophic without a formal philosophical educational background.
>:-) >:-)

Customer service people are about as interested in a person's gender as they are in hearing about their kids. The millisecond they put into making the call after looking up from their iphone before blurting out Sir or Maam, doesn't give them much to go on besides Tall=Man; Long Hair=Woman.

I get misgendered alot more than my female alter- even when I'm wearing a VanDyke. Pretty much equal between men and women. It mostly happens when we are in Northeast US than here in the South where tons of guys have long hair. Unfortunately, it also usually happens when I am with my wife, and it is NOT something she wants to hear. Most times I roll with it and just let the person figure it out on their own. They usually feel bad enough once they realize their mistake without me pointing it out. If they catch me in a bad mood, I ask them with a smile if it was my beard or bellowing baritone that tipped them off.

It's been years since my female alter was misgendered and it was rare even then. But she is extremely sensitive to it and did her best to act as it she didn't notice. Every time it was by another woman and was inevitably followed up a few seconds later with an apology and a comment about how tall and pretty she is and if she is a model.

Quote from: ainsley on August 03, 2018, 10:58:51 AM
Semantics.  :)

If you have gender confirmation surgery, or sex reassignment surgery, or gender reassignment surgery, then you are not technically transgender.  You are the gender you align with and, thus, not trans.  But, again, it is semantics.

Caution, I tend to wax philosophic without a formal philosophical educational background.
>:-) >:-)

Semantics doesn't make you any more or less right..

And given how much trouble some people seem to have with understanding trans people and the correct use of language(Trans people often don't), why the hell would anyone start this crap?

It's my opinion so, save your abrasive comments for someone saying they are right and you are wrong. 

Okay we're done here folks  :police:

Thank you and good night

V M