Susan's Place Transgender Resources

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html)

New York Times/By Erica L. Green, Katie Benner and Robert Pear   Oct. 21, 2018
I am getting really really scared right now.... ; -;

Someone not in the US, please please please come save me from this hellhole of a country...

Fortunately, the mid terms are coming up soon.

This is terrifying. I knew he was going to this sooner or later.

I want to leave this planet.

The country is not a hell hole. The people in charge of it right now have without doubt declared us the enemy. They come for us, they come for immigrants, they come for LGB's, poor people, black/brown people! At what point do people stop pretending these are normal American values, and realize this is sick, wrong, evil even? Vote, get your friends to get off their butts and vote.

What does this mean for us who have "Completed" our legal journey? Will this invalidated all my legal papers if it goes through or could we get by?

Regardless, this is absolutely terrifying for those who are thinking about, has begun, or are in their legal journey.


I am so scared...

Quote from: PhoenixGurl2016 on October 21, 2018, 11:13:35 AM
What does this mean for us who have "Completed" our legal journey? Will this invalidated all my legal papers if it goes through or could we get by?

Regardless, this is absolutely terrifying for those who are thinking about, has begun, or are in their legal journey.


I am so scared...

"Sex means a person's status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth," the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring. "The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."

So, if you've changed your BC and had surgery, then they can use genetic testing to still refer to you as the gender you transitioned FROM.

This is a travesty, if enacted, from a federal programs' perspective. 

I wonder how our "official transgender spokesperson", Caitlyn Jenner, will spin this.

Quote from: ainsley on October 21, 2018, 11:19:32 AM
"Sex means a person's status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth," the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring. "The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."

So, if you've changed your BC and had surgery, then they can use genetic testing to still refer to you as the gender you transitioned FROM.

This is a travesty, if enacted, from a federal programs' perspective.

I get that, but that would basically mean "we are not citizens" do to "incorrect legal papers" we would not be able to do anything.....o my...that is scary...

Quote from: Janes Groove on October 21, 2018, 11:21:56 AM
I wonder how our "official transgender spokesperson", Caitlyn Jenner, will spin this.

... except Caitlyn herself said the exact opposite of this. Fearmongering and misinformation is not helpful here.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/caitlyn-jenner-im-not-a-spokesperson-for-the-trans-community/amp/

Quote"Sex means a person's status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth,"

That is an uneducated statement that clearly shows ignorance. Immutable? Have they ever heard of vagioplasty?

Quote"The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."

Does this mean that if someone has intersex chromosomes that it is ok to transition?

QuoteThe Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA) is a federal law that protects individuals from genetic discrimination in health insurance and employment. Genetic discrimination is the misuse of genetic information.

If this actually go through and becomes law, it will prove that Democracy is done.

Quoteto·tal·i·tar·i·an. Use totalitarian in a sentence. adjective. Totalitarian means relating to a government where the ruler or ruling group has complete control. An example of totalitarian used as an adjective is in the phrase "totalitarian regime" which means a rule where the ruler has total authority over everyone.

Realistically, what could this mean for healthcare, HRT, getting surgery, etc.?

I'm fine as long as I can get the proper medical care I need.

If I lose access to the medical treatment I need, I can't live.

What does this mean? This is crushing.

Yes, I'm voting.

Aren't more than half of intersex conditions NOT identifiable via chromosome testing, anyway??

A science fiction short story I read in high school comes to mind (?Clark? Vonnegut? Bradbury?). Relying on my 40 year old memory, the plot was roughly that a group of scientists discover a creature in the jungles of Africa they believe to be the missing link between Homo Sapiens and animals. When they decide to do an autopsy to study the creature's brain, the case is brought to court to determine whether the creature should be treated as an animal or has the rights of a human.

Transgender people have reached the point in society where there is a tremendous amount at risk or to gain. Regardless of the outcome, it is a huge step forward for the US Government to stop waffling by trying to define gender through a series of decisions and legal precedence and develop an explicit and uniform legal definition of gender.

Mea culpa.

From what I understand, the only realistic reason for something like this is to take benefits away. Otherwise why would they do it. I guess they are doing this to remove transgender benefits from Medicare coverage. Medicaid is controlled by the state, so coverage would still be available in states where it is covered.

oral E and Spiro are usually affordable even without prescription. Patches and Injections cost much more.

They're doing it to help them win elections. They do it to embolden their followers: every little right they take away from a minority group is worth another small bump in the polls for them. It's despicable.

Essentially, they're re-enacting that centuries-old game of blame just to keep themselves in power. When they do things like this to us, their followers look at it and see them going after "the enemy", persecuting the people who have challenged their old ways of thinking. It's not just that they hate us, it's that they need someone to hate. They needed a rallying cry, and we're an easy target. Do any of us truly believe they'll stop there? We're in danger of losing basic rights every time they need a boost in popularity, this won't be the end of it.

Pointing that out isn't "fearmongering", it's calling attention to problems that we, as a community, will face if things don't change soon. If we can't get them out of power, then the next time they go after our rights, it's going to be a lot scarier than this.

QuoteFrom what I understand, the only realistic reason for something like this is to take benefits away.

While that's likely part of it, the bigger picture is pandering to those who support them.  Look at Trump's response to Charlottesville.  Look at how he's targeted Mexicans, Muslims and more.  It's a pull up the drawbridge and keep the others out kind of government.  If you're not one of "them" you're out.

No, it's not "fearmongering" or "alarmism."  It's a REAL ALARM - red flashing lights and wailing siren.

People have made all sorts of excuses for this administration and its supporters, telling us we're just worrying about nothing, and they don't really mean what they say.  Wake the hell up, people!  They want us GONE!

An apt thought for the day: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." 
-Maya Angelou

Quote from: itsApril on October 21, 2018, 01:58:16 PM
No, it's not "fearmongering" or "alarmism."  It's a REAL ALARM - red flashing lights and wailing siren.

People have made all sorts of excuses for this administration and its supporters, telling us we're just worrying about nothing, and they don't really mean what they say.  Wake the hell up, people!  They want us GONE!

An apt thought for the day: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."  -Maya Angelou

I hate to break it to you, but it is not just us and this is not the first Red Flag..... There have been many and not many people are speaking out about it. The level of general level of apathy is scary. Things don't matter unless it is about you and even then, it doesn't matter cause it isn't here yet. People need to wake up. I rather do something for a reason that doesn't happen then to not do anything and have something happen.

Quote from: DustKitten on October 21, 2018, 01:33:39 PM
They're doing it to help them win elections. They do it to embolden their followers: every little right they take away from a minority group is worth another small bump in the polls for them. It's despicable.

Essentially, they're re-enacting that centuries-old game of blame just to keep themselves in power. When they do things like this to us, their followers look at it and see them going after "the enemy", persecuting the people who have challenged their old ways of thinking. It's not just that they hate us, it's that they need someone to hate. They needed a rallying cry, and we're an easy target. Do any of us truly believe they'll stop there? We're in danger of losing basic rights every time they need a boost in popularity, this won't be the end of it.

Pointing that out isn't "fearmongering", it's calling attention to problems that we, as a community, will face if things don't change soon. If we can't get them out of power, then the next time they go after our rights, it's going to be a lot scarier than this.

Can you imagine what can be done by someone who doesn't have to win another election? This term isn't the scary one to be worried about. This is him wanting/needing another successful run for president. Trump is a Hardliner and he gets things done.

With all my disagreements, really only LGBT rights, he is doing what should have been done a long time ago. He is running the country like a business like it needs be. The United States citizens need to come first although he can still get done what he needs to without bullying the LGBT and minorities.

I find it hard to believe that he finds time to assault the LGBT community. In my opinion he needs to stay focused on the things that matter. Such as: pulling out of the 1955 Nuclear Agreement, removing Environmental Protection, and relations with Russia and China and Europe. And that is the start of the list!

It is hard to believe that he used to be a Democrat.

Unspeakably vile. This really hurts transitioning kids in school that need access to bathrooms and locker rooms. And of course it's a green light for general discrimination against trans people, including job discrimination. It's just awful.

QuoteHe is running the country like a business like it needs be.

So, that's why he put steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, claiming it was for national security?  Canada has been intimately tied to the U.S. in many ways for many years.  Canada is part of NATO and NORAD.  There was even a 2nd NORAD HQ in North Bay, Ontario.  Our military often has drills together and much, much more.  A security risk?  Yeah right!!!  That's even before we get to the disgraceful way he's treated Canada and other allies in general.  How is it good business to attack your allies, while helping your enemies?

QuoteIt is hard to believe that he used to be a Democrat.

That's what happens when you're a sociopath.  He needed those bigots to get elected and went after them.

Trump Administration Eyes Defining Transgender Out of Existence
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html)

The war of trans people is getting hot, so everyone PLEASE get your legal paperwork done ASAP!

Quote from: AngieT on October 21, 2018, 02:27:37 PM
Trump Administration Eyes Defining Transgender Out of Existence
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html)

The war of trans people is getting hot, so everyone PLEASE get your legal paperwork done ASAP!

I wonder how Trump is going to make America great again when all the hard-working transgender Americans move to Canada or Mexico

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I am beside myself about this. He's not a SoCon, but he's paying for their support. I'm from NY and we all there know he's full of manure, but they take him as the second coming.  If he was running against the devil, I'd vote for the devil.


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Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 21, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
With all my disagreements, really only LGBT rights, he is doing what should have been done a long time ago. He is running the country like a business like it needs be.

The objective of business is to make money for shareholder over everything else... the objective of our government is to help guarantee "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".

So no the county should not be run like a business.... And in even those terms he is taking a very short sighted approach by heating up the economy for short term profits at the expense of long term fiscal health.

The deregulation combined with the tax cuts will eventual cause another huge bubble and crash... and there will not be the money for teh safety net.. and more than a few T*'s need that in this society, never mind most senior citizens need social security and medicare to have a decent retirement (and working until death is not a option for most between age discrimination and health issues)... and that goes double for many of us.

- karen

Quote from: AnneK on October 21, 2018, 02:15:40 PM
So, that's why he put steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada, claiming it was for national security?  Canada has been intimately tied to the U.S. in many ways for many years.  Canada is part of NATO and NORAD.  There was even a 2nd NORAD HQ in North Bay, Ontario.  Our military often has drills together and much, much more.  A security risk?  Yeah right!!!  That's even before we get to the disgraceful way he's treated Canada and other allies in general.  How is it good business to attack your allies, while helping your enemies?

I believe that he is making America more independent. Less reliant of foreign trade and more reliant on domestic production. The American people will support this not fully understanding the big picture. He will absolutely step on anyone or any group to get this done and has already done so.

Trump is fortifying the country like it or not. To what end is another question. Why? Maybe the list of friendly counties ain't so friendly. For profit? I do not know, but one thing is for sure he really doesn't need more money and he knows it.

None the less, this is very serious and people should/need to get their paperwork/surgeries done ASAP.

Sure sounds like the type of things we would have heard from the Nazis during World War II as they pushed for only those of type around everyone else had to go. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: AnneK on October 21, 2018, 01:50:18 PM
While that's likely part of it, the bigger picture is pandering to those who support them.  Look at Trump's response to Charlottesville.  Look at how he's targeted Mexicans, Muslims and more.  It's a pull up the drawbridge and keep the others out kind of government.  If you're not one of "them" you're out.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 21, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
None the less, this is very serious and people should/need to get their paperwork/surgeries done ASAP.

Everyone PLEASE LISTEN to the point gingerViktorKay just made here!  At this point, the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") regulations regarding health insurance are STILL in effect.

As the article points out, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is spearheading the effort to regulate us out of legal existence.  This is critical, because HHS has primary authority for establishing the healthcare regulations.

Under the present regulations, health insurance MUST cover medical and surgical treatment related to trans folks.  If HHS CHANGES the regulations to eliminate this mandate, health insurers will REVERT to their earlier practice of DENYING services to trans folks on grounds that the procedures and services are "elective," or "cosmetic," or "experimental."

The practical meaning of this: If you have ACA-compliant health insurance, the door is currently OPEN to receiving covered trans-related health services.  Next year, that door may CLOSE.

Most of us are not wealthy.  For most trans folks, getting trans-related health services is doable if they are covered by your health insurance.  If they are NOT covered, they are likely out of reach.

Do it NOW, while the door is STILL OPEN!

DNA testing does break the unwarranted search and seizure. This ruling will go to court and likely to the Supreme Court based on how lower judges our overturning Trump Policies. Hugs
Mariah

How this should play out, Trump has assembled a court that interprets the constitution textually. This means congress can only pass laws that meet the constitutional requirements of Article one, Section 8. Rules and regulations of both the Obama and Trump administration are invalid when applied to the public unless approved by congress. Because the federal government lacks the power, the power belongs to the people or the state if given to the state by the people. Somewhat by default, Birth Certificates are still a power that belongs to the state and not the federal government. How the state defines what goes on the Birth Certificate shouldn't be something the federal government can alter.

This creates a legal mess because if the federal government decides to exceed their powers, what do you do about the many like me who have changed our records in the past? Records will become mismatched and items like Real ID will become impossible because records will not match up. Next complication is intersex people because how do you define them. It's entirely possible that they have been one gender all their life and a genetic test completely redefines their existence.

It would have been better had the Obama administration not started things in motion however now it appears it will need to go to the court and everything that either administration has attempted will be discarded because the federal government has no power in this area. Yes it may be difficult for a while but I can't see how this can stand up in the current court and as the ruling will be sound, how a newer court could overturn it.

And folks wonder why I will not visit the U.S.!

Quote from: PhoenixGurl2016 on October 21, 2018, 11:13:35 AM
I am so scared...

The purpose of this proposal is to make you scared.  Don't be scared.  Be angry.

Quote from: Mariah on October 21, 2018, 04:07:05 PMThis ruling will go to court and likely to the Supreme Court based on how lower judges our overturning Trump Policies.

That is not exactly a comforting thought.

Quote from: Virginia on October 21, 2018, 01:04:02 PM
A science fiction short story I read in high school comes to mind (?Clark? Vonnegut? Bradbury?). Relying on my 40 year old memory, the plot was roughly that a group of scientists discover a creature in the jungles of Africa they believe to be the missing link between Homo Sapiens and animals. When they decide to do an autopsy to study the creature's brain, the case is brought to court to determine whether the creature should be treated as an animal or has the rights of a human.

Transgender people have reached the point in society where there is a tremendous amount at risk or to gain. Regardless of the outcome, it is a huge step forward for the US Government to stop waffling by trying to define gender through a series of decisions and legal precedence and develop an explicit and uniform legal definition of gender.

Was that story called "Her Habilene Husband?"

Whatever your personal politics may be, put them aside: we can all agree that discrimination against ANY minority group (us included) is bad. That's the only issue under discussion.

Those of us living in the United States NEED to figure out the following things:

1. How do we keep this from getting worse?

2. If things do get worse, what will we do?

We can't just sit on the sidelines and TALK about it without planning to do anything about it. This is a serious issue for us, we need to agree on a plan of action to address it, and execute that plan together. I don't just mean everyone on Susan's either, this affects the entire transgender community. I'm not much of an organizer, but I think we ALL need to have this conversation together.

I don't have any solutions for question 1, but I think we may be able to apply for asylum in other countries if our government makes another move against us. Thoughts?

Quote from: DustKitten on October 21, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
Whatever your personal politics may be, put them aside: we can all agree that discrimination against ANY minority group (us included) is bad. That's the only issue under discussion.

Those of us living in the United States NEED to figure out the following things:

1. How do we keep this from getting worse?

2. If things do get worse, what will we do?

We can't just sit on the sidelines and TALK about it without planning to do anything about it.

First things first.  Midterm elections are Nov.   6.   Make sure you vote.

Second, communicate with your elected officials.  At the state and federal levels they all have email addresses.

Third make sure your friends are aware of this.  Those who care about you will understand how scary this is for us. 

Finally pray for the greater good to prevail. 


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From what I understand no one would be *forced* to take a DNA test, but rather the only way you could have your legal gender (as far as the federal government is concerned) changed would be to demonstrate that you birth-assigned gender does not match your karyotype (i.e. AFAB but have at least one Y chromosome or AMAB but have no Y chromosome).

If this goes through we might end up with a DOMA-esque scenario where you could legally be one sex under the laws of your state of residence but the other under another state's or the federal government's laws.

Trump's recent perfectly timed SCOTUS appointee Kavanaugh...

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that the supreme court is on our side.

<sigh> Damn doom and gloom

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 21, 2018, 06:32:05 PM
Trump's recent perfectly timed SCOTUS appointee Kavanaugh...

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that the supreme court is on our side.

<sigh> Damn doom and gloom

The reason the left was so upset with Kavanaugh is because he would end Roe vs Wade under the argument that it wasn't constitutional. The same argument/logic applies in this case. It doesn't matter what Kavanaugh's personal views are, it's his legal opinion that's important and if that is used, both issues would be unconstitutional.

Textual judges follow the constitution as it's written and their personal view can't be considered in their decision. This results in consistent decision that can be predicted in advance and it's why we must have judges who can ignore their personal views. If we don't have this, we have a king where one person can rule the country. This is something the constitution was designed to prevent as long as it's words were the law of the land.

I'm nauseous. I read it. And then, I read the comments. You'll see my comment response to "I'm a gay person who's been angered by our community being hijacked by the transgender folks at war with science".... Holy Sh*t folks! I know, I took the bait. But geezuz. A gay person? You got yours and now to f**k with the rest of us. Who do you think they're coming after next, dude?

I'm so tired of this. Here in Massachusetts, of all places, they're trying to roll back our public accommodation rights this November. Really? Like WTF?

Quote from: tgchar21 on October 21, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
From what I understand no one would be *forced* to take a DNA test, but rather the only way you could have your legal gender (as far as the federal government is concerned) changed would be to demonstrate that you birth-assigned gender does not match your karyotype (i.e. AFAB but have at least one Y chromosome or AMAB but have no Y chromosome).

If this goes through we might end up with a DOMA-esque scenario where you could legally be one sex under the laws of your state of residence but the other under another state's or the federal government's laws.

I really think you are all getting severely over exercised over your worst fantasies. Ultimately, reality will prevail,  not  hysterical hyperbole .

Quote from: Dena on October 21, 2018, 06:44:09 PM
The reason the left was so upset with Kavanaugh is because he would end Roe vs Wade under the argument that it wasn't constitutional. The same argument/logic applies in this case. It doesn't matter what Kavanaugh's personal views are,

Given his ranting about the Clintons trying to get revenge I have my doubts about that... If be believed that he is irrational. and if not he was willing to lie  to congress to get to the levers of power, which is not how a judge which could put aside his personal opinions would act.

Quote
Textual judges follow the constitution as it's written and their personal view can't be considered in their decision.

But when the specifics are not spelled, nor the specifics of the questions at hand never seriously imagined, and times were so hugely different at the time of the writing of the constitution,  how what IS written should be applied is not always obvious ...

So there is always room for finding a way to justify personal beliefs on either side that sounds reasonable.

Quote
This results in consistent decision that can be predicted in advance and it's why we must have judges who can ignore their personal views. If we don't have this, we have a king where one person can rule the country.

I have to disagree.. The spirit of the intent, as well as taking into consideration ho much the world has changed from when the words were framed, needs to be taken into account when interpreting the constitution.

The constitution needs to be applied with consideration to current realities. Those who call themselves strict texualists AFAIK invariably seem to fall on only one side of the political spectrum - and I think that is telling.

- Karen

The National Center for Transgender Equality just released this:

In response to a story by The New York Times about efforts within the Trump administration to eliminate the rights of transgender people, Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality, issued the following statement: (https://transequality.org/press/releases/in-response-to-the-new-york-times-october-21-story-trump-administration-eyes-defining)

Quote"This proposal is an attempt to put heartless restraints on the lives of 2 million people, effectively abandoning our right to equal access to health care, to housing, to education, or to fair treatment under the law. This administration is willing to disregard the established medical and legal view of our rights and ourselves to solidify an archaic, dogmatic, and frightening view of the world. This transparent political attack will not succeed administratively, legally, or morally.

In the name of preempting some misinformation, let's talk about what this proposed rule would not do. It would not eliminate the precedents set by dozens of federal courts over the last two decades affirming the full rights and identities of transgender people. It would not undo the consensus of the medical providers and scientists across the globe who see transgender people, know transgender people, and urge everyone to accept us for who we are. And no rule—no administration—can erase the experiences of transgender people and our families. While foolish, this proposed rule deflates itself in the face of the facts, and the facts don't care how the Trump administration feels.

To transgender people: I know you are frightened. I know you are horrified to see your existence treated in such an inhumane and flippant manner. What this administration is trying to do is an abomination, a reckless attack on your life and mine. But this administration is also staffed by inexperienced amateurs overplaying their hand by taking extreme positions that ignore law, medicine, and basic human decency.

With each awful headline like this, remember that you are far from alone. NCTE and other organizations are continuing to fight against this bigotry. Remember that there is an entire human rights community that not only stands with us but will always fight back—and fight hard. Thousands of us have devoted our lives to protecting you and your families, and our ability to do so is nothing short of a privilege. And we will not lay down now.

Transgender people have fought rules like this one in federal and state court and won. We have stood toe-to-toe with administrators, legislatures, and executives who would agree with this rule and yet we won. We have fought and will continue to fight for The Equality Act, a bill currently in Congress that would explicitly enshrine civil rights protections for transgender people—Congress must pass this long overdue bill now. We know how to defeat this, and we will do everything we can until every transgender person feels secure in their rights under the law.

At the heart of our work at NCTE is the belief that no one should have to suffer just to be true to themselves. And yet transgender people are still often forced from their homes, fired from their jobs, harassed at their schools, and denied the most basic level of dignity by a broken system. Knowing this, millions of transgender people wake up every day and step into an uncertain world. This is the most common trait shared by transgender people: A strength and resilience for hard and difficult times. If this administration is hoping to demoralize us, they will be disappointed. If they are hoping we will give up, they should reconsider the power of our persistence and our fury."

I plan to announce that anyone I even suspect of voting for trump, including friends and family, are out of my life. Sorry sis, maybe you and your redneck family should think for yourselves instead of letting your redneck husband tell you what to do.

@Complete, for a lot of us, THIS IS our worst fantasy, we hardly dare dream of anything worse.

DO NOT normalize this and say "Well, it probably won't stick...they probably won't win this election anyway." That's how we got to this point in the first place! We've waited, we've watched them go after our rights, and the rights of other minorities, and we've done nothing, because we thought it wouldn't get this bad. If we don't do anything now, it's only going to get worse. At the VERY least, we need to do what we can to make sure the Republicans don't hold on to their congressional majorities after the midterms. It's also time for us to start working out what we're going to do if we cannot stop this here. We can't just count on other people to protect us this time, we need to mobilize politically and protect ourselves.

Questions:

What other options do we have? We can tell all our friends about this, and write letters, and vote, but if that's not enough, then what? Can we reverse this even if we're stuck under the thumb of a government that believes we SHOULD suffer discrimination? What other groups can we ally ourselves with to amplify our voice? How are we, as a community, going to respond to this?

There are currently only 1.4 million transgender people living in America--hardly a drop in the bucket where elections are concerned. We aren't a priority for EITHER political party, and that needs to change, but we can't do it alone. It'll take ALL of our voices, and the voices of all our friends and families, to make something happen. So let's do something about it!

Quote

Quote from: Dena on October 21, 2018, 06:44:09 PM
The reason the left was so upset with Kavanaugh is because he would end Roe vs Wade under the argument that it wasn't constitutional. The same argument/logic applies in this case. It doesn't matter what Kavanaugh's personal views are,

Given his ranting about the Clintons trying to get revenge I have my doubts about that... If be believed that he is irrational. and if not he was willing to lie  to congress to get to the levers of power, which is not how a judge which could put aside his personal opinions would act.

Your making the assumption of guilt without proof. If you were falsely accused I suspect you might say a few thing that you would regret latter and I know he regrets some of what he said. Hopefully in the long debate of the case, rational thought will prevail on both sites.

Quote

Quote
Textual judges follow the constitution as it's written and their personal view can't be considered in their decision.

But when the specifics are not spelled, nor the specifics of the questions at hand never seriously imagined, and times were so hugely different at the time of the writing of the constitution,  how what IS written should be applied is not always obvious ...

So there is always room for finding a way to justify personal beliefs on either side that sounds reasonable.

The constitution and the Federalist Papers solve that problem. Both of them clearly define the intent of the founding fathers and if it's not included in those two sources, the government is forbidden from going there. Unfortunately years of inventive reading of the constitution have resulted in the mess we have today. I dare say that most of the laws on the book wouldn't pass Constitutional muster if put to the test. I fully understand how this came about but unfortunately it is a forbidden subject.

Quote

Quote
This results in consistent decision that can be predicted in advance and it's why we must have judges who can ignore their personal views. If we don't have this, we have a king where one person can rule the country.

I have to disagree.. The spirit of the intent, as well as taking into consideration ho much the world has changed from when the words were framed, needs to be taken into account when interpreting the constitution.

The constitution needs to be applied with consideration to current realities. Those who call themselves strict texualists AFAIK invariably seem to fall on only one side of the political spectrum - and I think that is telling.

- Karen

Have you considered that one party would prefer not to be encumbered by the constitution and the other side is still traditional believing in the constitution? If you can freely interpret the constitution, it's worthless paper. if it doesn't meet todays needs, Amend it. The founding fathers knew they made mistakes, in particular on the subject of slavey so they allowed the ability for the document to grow as needed. They made it difficult because they wanted changes to be well thought out to avoid exactly what we are seeing now.

Quote from: Dena on October 21, 2018, 08:25:14 PM
Given his ranting about the Clintons trying to get revenge I have my doubts about that... If be believed that he is irrational. and if not he was willing to lie  to congress to get to the levers of power, which is not how a judge which could put aside his personal opinions would act.
Your making the assumption of guilt without proof.

The only assumption I am making is that the Clintons did not orchestrate the accusation of sexual misconduct against him.... Given that, what he said about that is either delusional, or a calculated lie to help him get confirmed...

Even if he is innocent of the charges of inappropriate behavior, when she starts throwing around while conspiracy theories, as I don't think he is delusional, he shows that he goes to unacceptable lengths to further his personal agenda for Supreme Court Justice IMO.

Quote
If you were falsely accused I suspect you might say a few thing that you would regret latter

In fact I was (thought it was not sexually based) and it almost cost me my job... but as angry and scared as I was, I stuck to the facts and did not try smear my accuser with wild theories.

Quoteand I know he regrets some of what he said.

Only because of the backlash I suspect.

Quote
Unfortunately years of inventive reading of the constitution have resulted in the mess we have today.

What specially do you mean by that... I suspect we might see mess in very different places.

Quote
Have you considered that one party would prefer not to be encumbered by the constitution and the other side is still traditional believing in the constitution?

Well we disagree about that at a very basic level...

I think the spirit of teh constitution would be to not prohibit or discriminate against same sex marriage at teh federal level for example, even though the framers might have have been dead set against it (I'm sure they never even considered the possibility) ... And that is because of greater understanding of the human condition that has evolved over time.

The constitution is intended to prevent tyranny by the majority, and issues need to be looked at from that point of few.

In any case the republicans have gone so far right and catering to the religious far right, and reinforcing into conspiracy theirs to divide the country, I don't see how anyone who has or needs to change sex could support them..

I find it incomprehensible.

- Karen

I was worried that the Trump administration would do something like this. This administration has been staffed by those who are the most basic types of intolerant bigots one can find. We are not the only targets. They will belittle anyone that is not rich and white. The last 2 years should be proof enough of that. If nothing else, attacking immigrants could get this piece of legislation passed through without anyone noticing. Then, they can tell you they got bigger fish to fry, and they ain't got time to hear what you have to say. In their case, leading by example tells the rest of the country it's OK to hate and discriminate. I know. It's sad. But, what else could one expect from an administration based on creating conflict everywhere?

Quote

Quote
If you were falsely accused I suspect you might say a few thing that you would regret latter

In fact I was (thought it was not sexually based) and it almost cost me my job... but as angry and scared as I was, I stuck to the facts and did not try smear my accuser with wild theories.

To be human is to make mistakes. To be god like is to be perfect. Unfortunately many of us are human and we do make mistakes. That is why forgiveness exist, so we don't need to live with our mistakes for the rest of our life.

Quote

Quote
Unfortunately years of inventive reading of the constitution have resulted in the mess we have today.

What specially do you mean by that... I suspect we might see mess in very different places.

Quote
Have you considered that one party would prefer not to be encumbered by the constitution and the other side is still traditional believing in the constitution?

Well we disagree about that at a very basic level...

I think the spirit of teh constitution would be to not prohibit or discriminate against same sex marriage at teh federal level for example, even though the framers might have have been dead set against it (I'm sure they never even considered the possibility) ... And that is because of greater understanding of the human condition that has evolved over time.

The constitution is intended to prevent tyranny by the majority, and issues need to be looked at from that point of few.

In any case the republicans have gone so far right and catering to the religious far right, and reinforcing into conspiracy theirs to divide the country, I don't see how anyone who has or needs to change sex could support them..

I find it incomprehensible.

Before coming to Susan's I spent months learning the political history of the United States. This is stuff they don't teach in school and it answered the question I started with which was why are we in the mess we are today. Both sides are at fault though one more than the other and the problems started when we drifted away from the text of the constitution. Had Obama done this the right way and pushed it through congress, the republicans wouldn't have been able to use the same process to present their agenda. Two wrongs don't make a right and at this point, the only way out is to do it the right way. Remember that the court would produce a 4-5 decision at worst case but I suspect enough of the judges would see the unconstitutionally of the issue that both decisions would be ruled improper. I suspect it's possible that it would be a 9-0 decision with the current court.

It's very possible that Trump could regret his court picks if he is agreeable to the new rules.

I am voting in November, I am reaching out to others, but I am also going to be prepared. I am sorry I am a coward but if that door opens to Canada, I am taking it at the drop of a hat. I know a lot of us can not do that, but I can and will. I will vote, I will talk, but I am not going to be unprepared.

Quote from: Dena on October 21, 2018, 09:41:51 PM
In fact I was (thought it was not sexually based) and it almost cost me my job... but as angry and scared as I was, I stuck to the facts and did not try smear my accuser with wild theories.
To be human is to make mistakes. To be god like is to be perfect. Unfortunately many of us are human and we do make mistakes. That is why forgiveness exist, so we don't need to live with our mistakes for the rest of our life.

What specially do you mean by that... I suspect we might see mess in very different places.

Well we disagree about that at a very basic level...

I think the spirit of teh constitution would be to not prohibit or discriminate against same sex marriage at teh federal level for example, even though the framers might have have been dead set against it (I'm sure they never even considered the possibility) ... And that is because of greater understanding of the human condition that has evolved over time.

The constitution is intended to prevent tyranny by the majority, and issues need to be looked at from that point of few.

In any case the republicans have gone so far right and catering to the religious far right, and reinforcing into conspiracy theirs to divide the country, I don't see how anyone who has or needs to change sex could support them..

I find it incomprehensible.
Before coming to Susan's I spent months learning the political history of the United States. This is stuff they don't teach in school and it answered the question I started with which was why are we in the mess we are today. Both sides are at fault though one more than the other and the problems started when we drifted away from the text of the constitution. Had Obama done this the right way and pushed it through congress, the republicans wouldn't have been able to use the same process to present their agenda. Two wrongs don't make a right and at this point, the only way out is to do it the right way. Remember that the court would produce a 4-5 decision at worst case but I suspect enough of the judges would see the unconstitutionally of the issue that both decisions would be ruled improper. I suspect it's possible that it would be a 9-0 decision with the current court.

It's very possible that Trump could regret his court picks if he is agreeable to the new rules.

There it is in a nutshell.

If a quarter of us are going to stand up for the republican party and defend them, we're doomed. We CANNOT afford to let politics tear us apart when our survival is at stake.

I'm not willing to discuss conservatism vs liberalism at a time like this. The only thing that matters is that the people in office RIGHT NOW have taken action against us, have attempted to deprive us of rights in the past, and will likely do so again.

THINK for a moment. The next time they do something like this, which right will they try to take from us? What about the time after that? Or after that? If they decide to create a transgender registry in the US, will that raise any eyebrows among our conservative members?

This is important, because it won't be the end. It needs to stop.

Quote from: DustKitten on October 22, 2018, 04:42:29 AM
If a quarter of us are going to stand up for the republican party and defend them, we're doomed. We CANNOT afford to let politics tear us apart when our survival is at stake.

I'm not willing to discuss conservatism vs liberalism at a time like this. The only thing that matters is that the people in office RIGHT NOW have taken action against us, have attempted to deprive us of rights in the past, and will likely do so again.

THINK for a moment. The next time they do something like this, which right will they try to take from us? What about the time after that? Or after that? If they decide to create a transgender registry in the US, will that raise any eyebrows among our conservative members?

This is important, because it won't be the end. It needs to stop.

Is the answer silencing a quarter of us? I will, of course fight for the rights of transgender people. That can be done from either side of the political aisle. Transgender does not differentiate between people of one political persuasion or the other. What I don't want to have to fight for is my freedom of speech. It was gained hundreds of years ago, and is the cornerstone of this nation.

The answer is as you stated: defending ourselves from both sides of the aisle. Devlyn, I'm asking you to put aside political grudges and join us in common cause. The only ideals under attack here are those which directly seek to harm us and other minorities. We must not split ourselves over this issue.

Quote from: DustKitten on October 22, 2018, 05:16:33 AM
The answer is as you stated: defending ourselves from both sides of the political aisle. Devlyn, I'm asking you to put aside political grudges and join us in common cause. The only political ideals under attack here are those which directly seek to harm us and other minorities. We must not split ourselves over this issue.

Of course, and my post above would probably have been better in the new site policy thread, where republicans have been instructed to dis-invite themselves from the site.  :'(

QuoteIs the answer silencing a quarter of us? I will, of course fight for the rights of transgender people. That can be done from either side of the political aisle. Transgender does not differentiate between people of one political persuasion or the other. What I don't want to have to fight for is my freedom of speech. It was gained hundreds of years ago, and is the cornerstone of this nation.

I have been watching the U.S. political situation for many years, going back to Johnson.  The Republicans of today, to a significant extent, are not the Republicans of old.  Don't forget, it was the Republicans who came out against slavery many years ago.  They started going off the rails with Reagan, bringing in religious support, though Nixon did that to a lesser extent too.  Bush senior wasn't too bad, but I certainly had doubts with Dubya.  Then the Tea Party types came in and now the Repubilcan party is largely a disgrace, pandering to all these divisive groups.

Welcome to politics, Anne. As a group loses votes due to spending taxpayer money on a whim, they start to lean more conservative. As a group loses votes due to being stodgy, they start to lean more progressive.

Our problem is term limits. If today's population were allowed to represent current social values, none of this would be an issue.

To expand, the president has limited power. Changing presidents changes little more than the name on the White House stationery. The true power lies with our legislators, and that group looks like someone let the nursing home out for lunch.  :laugh:

Devlyn if you want to argue these points, please argue fairly. There is no valid comparison between the Republican party of Lincoln through Eisenhower and what has followed.

Let's be really clear, southern white Democrats came about as a reaction to the civil war. When Kennedy and then Johnson undertook to deconstruct segregation in the US south the bigots changed alliances. The same people who had been bigoted southern Democrats became bigoted southern Republicans and just as the Democratic party had been willing to make a deal of accepting those politicians into their power base.

The Republicans can hardly lay claim to fiscal responsibility today, given they are essential in providing government welfare to:

Red States that use more social services than blue states while putting less money into the federal coffers

Corporate welfare to big money and especially agribusiness

I'm not blind to the evils of politics and for the record I have never given a dollar to either party. I've worked for candidates I believe in and always voted my conscience over my wallet.

Additionally nobody has told you to leave. I'm telling you I pay no attention to this or other strawman arguments.

Sadie, your arguments are as strawman as mine. I was referencing a point in history to highlight the very fact that political parties switch at will to curry votes.... and you know it.

QuoteAs a group loses votes due to spending taxpayer money on a whim, they start to lean more conservative. As a group loses votes due to being stodgy, they start to lean more progressive.

QuoteChanging presidents changes little more than the name on the White House stationery.

It's become much more than conservative or liberal.  It's an all out attack on certain groups, including us.  It's a president who thinks he can rule by tweet, attacking whoever he wants.  As for the stationary, look at all the damage Trump has done in less than 2 years that have nothing to do with conservative or liberal.  As I mentioned, he's launched attacks on us, Mexicans, Muslims and more.  Then we have him attacking long time U.S. allies, while praising the likes of Putin, Duterte and Erdoğan.  Those people are clearly not what I thought U.S. values stood form.  There are a lot of Republicans who have realized what a disgrace Trump is.  When you have people like the Koch brothers deciding to support the Democrats, instead of Republicans, you know there's a serious problem.  While you may be Republican, you have to take a stand and decide whether being one is more important than doing what's right.  Once Trump and Pence are out of the way, then you can go back to being Republican.  In the mean time everyone has a duty to stand up and oppose the current administration.

Quote from: AnneK on October 22, 2018, 08:01:23 AM
It's become much more than conservative or liberal.  It's an all out attack on certain groups, including us.  It's a president who thinks he can rule by tweet, attacking whoever he wants.  As for the stationary, look at all the damage Trump has done in less than 2 years that have nothing to do with conservative or liberal.  As I mentioned, he's launched attacks on us, Mexicans, Muslims and more.  Then we have him attacking long time U.S. allies, while praising the likes of Putin, Duterte and Erdoğan.  Those people are clearly not what I thought U.S. values stood form.  There are a lot of Republicans who have realized what a disgrace Trump is.  When you have people like the Koch brothers deciding to support the Democrats, instead of Republicans, you know there's a serious problem.  While you may be Republican, you have to take a stand and decide whether being one is more important than doing what's right.  Once Trump and Pence are out of the way, then you can go back to being Republican.  In the mean time everyone has a duty to stand up and oppose the current administration.

Look at NC. Two words for you: Pat McRory. Anti-trans legislation was put forward, and soundly rejected by the people and by commerce. I'm at a handicap in that the new site policy prohibits me from defending my position. Vegas is offering good odds right now on how long until I'm banned from the site.  :laugh:

There are several good articles online right now about how misleading and divisive the NYT story is. They've been linked to in these discussions.. and ignored.

Quote from: Dena on October 21, 2018, 04:41:00 PM
How this should play out, Trump has assembled a court that interprets the constitution textually. This means congress can only pass laws that meet the constitutional requirements of Article one, Section 8. Rules and regulations of both the Obama and Trump administration are invalid when applied to the public unless approved by congress. Because the federal government lacks the power, the power belongs to the people or the state if given to the state by the people. Somewhat by default, Birth Certificates are still a power that belongs to the state and not the federal government. How the state defines what goes on the Birth Certificate shouldn't be something the federal government can alter.

This creates a legal mess because if the federal government decides to exceed their powers, what do you do about the many like me who have changed our records in the past? Records will become mismatched and items like Real ID will become impossible because records will not match up. Next complication is intersex people because how do you define them. It's entirely possible that they have been one gender all their life and a genetic test completely redefines their existence.

It would have been better had the Obama administration not started things in motion however now it appears it will need to go to the court and everything that either administration has attempted will be discarded because the federal government has no power in this area. Yes it may be difficult for a while but I can't see how this can stand up in the current court and as the ruling will be sound, how a newer court could overturn it.

Ex post facto. The new law/policy only applies from the point of change forward. That's my take. Basically, if something is made illegal today, if you did it yesterday, you can't be held accountable to the law today.


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Quote from: Devlyn on October 22, 2018, 07:16:32 AM
To expand, the president has limited power. Changing presidents changes little more than the name on the White House stationery. The true power lies with our legislators, and that group looks like someone let the nursing home out for lunch.  :laugh:

Not only that some of them with their expressions look like the cat that swallowed a sour mouse.  :P

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 22, 2018, 08:27:59 AM

Not only that some of them with their expressions look like the cat that swallowed a sour mouse.  :P

:laugh:  ;D :)

Quote from: tgchar21 on October 21, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
From what I understand no one would be *forced* to take a DNA test, but rather the only way you could have your legal gender (as far as the federal government is concerned) changed would be to demonstrate that you birth-assigned gender does not match your karyotype (i.e. AFAB but have at least one Y chromosome or AMAB but have no Y chromosome).

If this goes through we might end up with a DOMA-esque scenario where you could legally be one sex under the laws of your state of residence but the other under another state's or the federal government's laws.

And that should be a case for full faith and credit. It's why my drivers license is good in all 50 states as is my marriage. Should be the same with this.


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Quote from: laurenb on October 21, 2018, 07:11:33 PM
I'm nauseous. I read it. And then, I read the comments. You'll see my comment response to "I'm a gay person who's been angered by our community being hijacked by the transgender folks at war with science".... Holy Sh*t folks! I know, I took the bait. But geezuz. A gay person? You got yours and now to f**k with the rest of us. Who do you think they're coming after next, dude?

I'm so tired of this. Here in Massachusetts, of all places, they're trying to roll back our public accommodation rights this November. Really? Like WTF?

I've run into gays that think T shouldn't be part of lgbt because it's not about sex. Maybe we can send them and terfs on vacation somewhere.


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QuoteLook at NC. Two words for you: Pat McRory.

My question to you is do you think voting Republican is more important than standing up to this disgraceful administration that supports bigotry?

I've already stated that I support transgender rights. I can do that from the republican side. Truthfully, I don't look to the oldsters in power for guidance. Anyone who chooses to look around can see where we stand, and it's getting better all the time. Focus on the political antics, and you won't see the true picture.

I'm bowing out of this and the site policy discussion.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on October 22, 2018, 04:57:43 AM
Is the answer silencing a quarter of us? I will, of course fight for the rights of transgender people. That can be done from either side of the political aisle. Transgender does not differentiate between people of one political persuasion or the other. What I don't want to have to fight for is my freedom of speech. It was gained hundreds of years ago, and is the cornerstone of this nation.

No, currently it cannot be fought from both side of the aisle.  As long as the GOP has sold its soul to the evangelicals it will continue to do crap like this to keep them voting.  I believe most Republicans really dont care about this, but so long as a large enough voting faction does, they will pander to them to keep power.  Why time it 3 weeks before an election?

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Quote from: Gertrude on October 22, 2018, 08:30:23 AM
And that should be a case for full faith and credit. It's why my drivers license is good in all 50 states as is my marriage. Should be the same with this.

Actually full faith and credit does not necessarily obligate a state to recognize a status that would be illegal there - using your example of driver's licenses if you're of legal age to drive in State A but not in State B, then B does not have to recognize A's driver's licenses for people too young to drive in B.

Courtney & Devlyn:

Please reconsider your last comments!

You both have valuable opinions that need to be shared.

We're degenerating, among ourselves, to what we dislike about our government.  How can we possibly expect our elected officials to take a higher ground when we can't among ourselves.

On my Facebook profile where it asks about my politics a have conservative to moderately liberal.  I am a proponent of a minimalist government which generally makes me a Republican.  On human rights issues I'm solidly a Democrat.

This is not a Republican or Democrat issue.  This is a discrimination issue where there is a proposal to strip away our existance in the eyes of our government.

Kate




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I don't get how someone can be trans and put into to place and continue to vote for people who want and are in the process of dehumanizing us. Our top priority should be our safety, protection, and advancement. Everything else comes after that. Tbh the people that don't, feels like a betrayal and is scary at that level naiveness. We are all in this together as right now, most Republicans are enemies to our existence. My own brother continues to vote red and doesn't care about me. I love him but to me, the fact that my own safety is not important, is betrayal. If you are Trans, why would you vote against your own kind. You know?


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@Kate/jkredman, if you're economically conservative and socially liberal, then you're probably a libertarian.

I had hoped that we'd be able to work with our conservative members on this, but their departure will probably make this discussion a lot easier on the rest of us. If they really want to leave, then I can't say I'm sad to see them go.

Personally, I would actually place myself to the left of the Democratic party on most economic and social issues. I grew up in Europe; my political attitudes are fairly typical for the region. That doesn't mean I can't try to compromise and discuss social issues in a civil manner when necessary.

Well that the end of my political leanings comment on my Facebook profile:

"and with the way things are going, I'm about to go Libertarian!". [emoji57]


Anybody know how to start and publicize a petition on Change.org?

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It's sad to see us arguing over politics, when we need to be coming together and figuring out what we can do to combat this. I myself am a libertarian, but I have several friends who are conservative, who are still upset about this. That's a good thing, because it shows people are more accepting of us then our current president. All I do know is Trump can't stop us from being trans and if it gets worse and they ever decide to come for us I won't sit quietly like in the 40's.

Y'all need to move to Canada lol.
Healthcare
Trans rights
Legal weed

Quote from: Nina on October 22, 2018, 10:10:22 AM
Y'all need to move to Canada lol.
Healthcare
Trans rights
Legal weed

As soon as that door opens...


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Quote from: Devlyn on October 22, 2018, 07:51:33 AM
Sadie, your arguments are as strawman as mine. I was referencing a point in history to highlight the very fact that political parties switch at will to curry votes.... and you know it.

First Dev, please don't tell me what I think. I don't know that and I offered facts and analysis about why the Republican party isn't what you said it is (fiscally responsible). You can call my words anything you like, I disagree. Happily Susan's is a microcosm of American culture that has little to do with my world (I've been appalled at lots of political "discourse" here and I don't hang that in the site, rather that this place is populated by a broad demographic).

I live in a bubble of my own choosing, there's a reason I hardly ever venture out of Cambridge. Last time I did it was to attend a reception for artists showing work at a museum on cape cod. After the reception we went for dinner with friends and outside that establishment I was verbally harassed for only the second time I've been out dressed femme.

Trans and queer people come to the cities I'm our blue states because these are the places where we're far more likely to be treated as human.

People who are blind to orientation, race, gender, class etc hire us. We're privileged and mostly we had to work harder than others to get where we are and we reward our employers with loyalty. That is the capitalist contract without influence peddling or identity politics. We also are part if a continuous brain drain from the red states to blue.

If you choose to participate with those who have been eroding civil constitutional protections for decades, that's your choice. Puhleeze however don't waste your breath on trying to convince me without bringing actual facts to the table.

Quote from: tgchar21 on October 22, 2018, 09:26:27 AM
Actually full faith and credit does not necessarily obligate a state to recognize a status that would be illegal there - using your example of driver's licenses if you're of legal age to drive in State A but not in State B, then B does not have to recognize A's driver's licenses for people too young to drive in B.

The illegality would be a question for the courts. There are certain things that are ubiquitous and gender is one that should be. The age of majority could be an argument, but for adults, it's all the same. This isn't settled yet and won't be for awhile.

Well... I'll put this out there; I don't think anyone can vote for someone who doesn't support trans rights and still say that trans rights are important to them. Right now, those are almost all Republicans.

That said, let's not kid ourselves that the Democrats are heroes. They tanked their chances in the last Presidential election with their Clinton worship, they still refuse to disown Bill Clinton for his sexual assault allegations that are least as bad as those against Trump or Kavanaugh, and they only started supporting trans rights when it was politically expedient for them to do so recently. We might have fewer present problems if they had pushed for trans rights decades ago.

So yes, we have to vote for Democrats and the Republicans are a strict no-go. However, we must still criticise the Democrats heavily for their own behavior. They still suck pretty bad, and I refuse to let myself be used by them without giving a piece of my mind first.

Today I contacted my district's congesswoman to be and also the current senator to enquire if they would support the trans community. The congresswoman already emailed me back the following:

"Liz Watson

Thanks for reaching out, Jamie. Attempting to define transgender people out of existence is hateful, discriminatory and unjust. We are better than this. I stand with you. I have already spoken out strongly against this move. It cannot and should not be allowed to stand.

Liz"

Please contact your reps asap. The more people put a bug in their ears the more motivation they will have to stand for us.

Here's what our advocates are doing (go to 28:40 for some inspiration): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=prL4gxMfSII&t=2006s

I'm NOT going down without a fight!!!  I haven't read anyone else's responses to th  original post, but on November 6th, my partner and I are going out to VOTE!!!

If you live in the US, VOTE! 
VOTE for the right to exist! 
VOTE to make sure good people get into office! 
VOTE for those that are too young to do so! 
VOTE for those that are sick and can't get to the polls, and hope they mailed in their absentee ballots!
VOTE for those that are still questioning their gender!
VOTE for those that finally decided to go out in public as their true selves for the first time!
VOTE for those quietly living their authentic lives!
VOTE for those willing to show the world their authentic selves!
VOTE for those brave souls who have come before and fought for what we currently have!
VOTE for those that will come behind us and continue the fight!
VOTE for the future of us all as living, breathing human beings that exist!
VOTE to show that we #wontbeerased !!!

Ryuichi



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Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 22, 2018, 12:32:39 PM
I'm NOT going down without a fight!!!  I haven't read anyone else's responses to th  original post, but on November 6th, my partner and I are going out to VOTE!!!

If you live in the US, VOTE! 
VOTE for the right to exist! 
VOTE to make sure good people get into office! 
VOTE for those that are too young to do so! 
VOTE for those that are sick and can't get to the polls, and hope they mailed in their absentee ballots!
VOTE for those that are still questioning their gender!
VOTE for those that finally decided to go out in public as their true selves for the first time!
VOTE for those quietly living their authentic lives!
VOTE for those willing to show the world their authentic selves!
VOTE for those brave souls who have come before and fought for what we currently have!
VOTE for those that will come behind us and continue the fight!
VOTE for the future of us all as living, breathing human beings that exist!
VOTE to show that we #wontbeerased !!!

Ryuichi



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Yes!!! #wontbeerased

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 22, 2018, 12:32:39 PM
I'm NOT going down without a fight!!!  I haven't read anyone else's responses to th  original post, but on November 6th, my partner and I are going out to VOTE!!!

If you live in the US, VOTE! 
VOTE for the right to exist! 
VOTE to make sure good people get into office! 
VOTE for those that are too young to do so! 
VOTE for those that are sick and can't get to the polls, and hope they mailed in their absentee ballots!
VOTE for those that are still questioning their gender!
VOTE for those that finally decided to go out in public as their true selves for the first time!
VOTE for those quietly living their authentic lives!
VOTE for those willing to show the world their authentic selves!
VOTE for those brave souls who have come before and fought for what we currently have!
VOTE for those that will come behind us and continue the fight!
VOTE for the future of us all as living, breathing human beings that exist!
VOTE to show that we #wontbeerased !!!

Ryuichi



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eloquent . . .

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 22, 2018, 12:32:39 PM
I'm NOT going down without a fight!!!  I haven't read anyone else's responses to th  original post, but on November 6th, my partner and I are going out to VOTE!!!

If you live in the US, VOTE! 
VOTE for the right to exist! 
VOTE to make sure good people get into office! 
VOTE for those that are too young to do so! 
VOTE for those that are sick and can't get to the polls, and hope they mailed in their absentee ballots!
VOTE for those that are still questioning their gender!
VOTE for those that finally decided to go out in public as their true selves for the first time!
VOTE for those quietly living their authentic lives!
VOTE for those willing to show the world their authentic selves!
VOTE for those brave souls who have come before and fought for what we currently have!
VOTE for those that will come behind us and continue the fight!
VOTE for the future of us all as living, breathing human beings that exist!
VOTE to show that we #wontbeerased !!!

Ryuichi



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I have a vote already in the mail which hopefully will help flip a house seat blue.  I can only hope we succeed!
#wontbeerased

As a 42yo outsider, I've followed the political landscape in the USA from the outside looking in for the last 20 years.

I really feel like many of these polarizing events could be negated if there were more than just 2 political establishments. I realize there are more and many lobby groups etc but it just doesn't seem to function in a healthy way.

When your only real options are either black or white it really doesn't allow for a spectrum does it?

These days it seems the USA is IMO one of the least 'free' countries in the western world. 

I hope this new incentive to win votes doesn't keep going in the same direction, at the very least many people who are against Transgender people will be emboldened by this new energy, be vigilant.

Take care everyone,

Sonja.

The problem is that since we have a simple "first past the post" voting system, third parties can't gain a foothold because voting for third party means voting against your best interest since they can't win.

Hey, people.
Looks things becoming grim for you in US. Wish you best. We can't bring our emperor down without bloodbath, for you, I hope, there's some chances.

Quote from: Lucca on October 22, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
The problem is that since we have a simple "first past the post" voting system, third parties can't gain a foothold because voting for third party means voting against your best interest since they can't win.

This is the problem we have in the US: only the Democrats and the Republicans stand a chance in winning. I don't care much for the Republicans and I cannot bring myself to vote Democrat.  Unfortunately, those are the only two parties we have to choose from.  Sure, I could vote for a third party, but that party has no chance in winning whatsoever.  So as it stands now, whether we have a Democrat or a Republican in power, we're screwed.

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 07:11:43 PM
This is the problem we have in the US: only the Democrats and the Republicans stand a chance in winning. I don't care much for the Republicans and I cannot bring myself to vote Democrat.  Unfortunately, those are the only two parties we have to choose from.  Sure, I could vote for a third party, but that party has no chance in winning whatsoever.  So as it stands now, whether we have a Democrat or a Republican in power, we're screwed.

Define screwed!
We know that we re very screwed and more if the republicans win,  We, as a group of humans, who do not fit into a gender corset, have never been screwed by democrats.  Are they ideal?  Of course not, this stupid system with the winner takes all allows only crooks or semi crooks to reach the top.  So far for anybody not fitting the norm of the society, the democrats have been the lesser evil, partially, because they are not under control of religious zealots.  If I consider Pence when he says that he is a practicing Calvinists , I know everything I need to know never to vote for a party where people like he can get to the top (I recommend that everybody who is not aware about Calvinism, read up on it)

Yes, the democrats are not the holy grale either, but with them at the helm, we have a slight chance that the stupid electoral college system goes by the wayside, and a popular voting system will be established!

Think it over and than think about screwed again!

The US political system is chaotic to say the least. The separation of church and state has failed, science is not taken as fact, and money controls everything.

Quote from: DustKitten on October 22, 2018, 09:36:13 AM
I grew up in Europe; my political attitudes are fairly typical for the region. That doesn't mean I can't try to compromise and discuss social issues in a civil manner when necessary.

I am a dual citizen of the US and the European Union.  If this gets really sour here, I will pack my bags and leave.  I would be hard for me, because I live way over 45 years in the US, but I wan to live and not become a haunted criminal, just because I do not fit the gender and/or sexual standard somebody decided to be the law!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 07:28:25 PM
Define screwed!
We know that we re very screwed and more if the republicans win,  We, as a group of humans, who do not fit into a gender corset, have never been screwed by democrats.  Are they ideal?  Of course not, this stupid system with the winner takes all allows only crooks or semi crooks to reach the top.  So far for anybody not fitting the norm of the society, the democrats have been the lesser evil, partially, because they are not under control of religious zealots.  If I consider Pence when he says that he is a practicing Calvinists , I know everything I need to know never to vote for a party where people like he can get to the top (I recommend that everybody who is not aware about Calvinism, read up on it)

Yes, the democrats are not the holy grale either, but with them at the helm, we have a slight chance that the stupid electoral college system goes by the wayside, and a popular voting system will be established!

Think it over and than think about screwed again!

"Screwed" is the subjection of the American public to the oppression of political powers.  The Republicans are no saints, but neither are the Democrats!  Ok, the Dems are LGBT-friendly while the Reps are not.  But aren't there other issues on the table?  The Dems push for outlawing firearms.  In a nation either the highest prison population in the world, do we really need to make criminals out of law-abiding citizens too?  In a country where drugs are so illegal that by getting high lands a person in prison yet drugs are everywhere, am I to believe that by making guns illegal that they will go away?  Of course not!  So why should I believe that the Dems are the better choice?

Sure, I care a lot a lot LGBT rights.  I don't like anti-LGBT legislature, and I'm all for fighting the good fight.  I'm just saying that neither party gives a crap about us.  What they do care about is their own political and personal agendas.

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 07:43:02 PM
  The Dems push for outlawing firearms.  In a nation either the highest prison population in the world, do we really need to make criminals out of law-abiding citizens too? 

I beg to differ,  I am a live long democratic activist (and a little bit of a tree huger, but that is part of my profession in the medical field), and I am a big time gun owner!  I have a few long barrel guns, and a few hand guns.  I have yet to see any serious danger for loosing those guns!  You should not listen to the NRA propaganda!  I knew the last owner of Remington personally, and he told me that they the gun manufacturers, keep the NRA going because it is a dream marketing tool!
No democrat in his right mind wants to get our guns.  There is way to many democrats who love their guns as much as you and I love ours!

Quote
Sure, I care a lot a lot LGBT rights.  I don't like anti-LGBT legislature, and I'm all for fighting the good fight.  I'm just saying that neither party gives a crap about us.  What they do care about is their own political and personal agendas.

As you say, neither party is a dream, but I definitely prefer the lesser evil over the larger.  I am a Berny Sanders guy, and I disliked Clinton as much as anybody, but I liked her way better than I liked Trump.  And I was right with my decission!
And I don't want us to face an even greater danger, now that he thinks we coronated him to king Donald, and he can treat us like the last piece of sh*****

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 08:15:42 PM
I beg to differ,  I am a live long democratic activist (and a little bit of a tree huger, but that is part of my profession in the medical field), and I am a big time gun owner!  I have a few long barrel guns, and a few hand guns.  I have yet to see any serious danger for loosing those guns!  You should not listen to the NRA propaganda!  I knew the last owner of Remington personally, and he told me that they the gun manufacturers, keep the NRA going because it is a dream marketing tool!
No democrat in his right mind wants to get our guns.  There is way to many democrats who love their guns as much as you and I love ours!
As you say, neither party is a dream, but I definitely prefer the lesser evil over the larger.  I am a Berny Sanders guy, and I disliked Clinton as much as anybody, but I liked her way better than I liked Trump.  And I was right with my decission!
And I don't want us to face an even greater danger, now that he thinks we coronated him to king Donald, and he can treat us like the last piece of sh*****

Every time a politician targets guns it is a Democrat.  And I am by no means a gun nut, but in a nation with armed criminals everywhere, why should I feel safe by disarming myself?  Am
I supposed to believe that criminals will obey the ban on guns?  Of course not.

Of course, guns are not the only issue.  Democrats push for socialism.  Socialism does not work.  The only people who benefit from communist/socialist systems are those in power - the rest suffer.  What about illegal immigration?  There are legal ways of entering and staying in the U.S.  Besides, I know people around the globe are suffering, but we cannot take care of the entire world.  We need to focus on Americans first!

As I said, I don't like either party.  Politically speaking, I'm too liberal to be a Republican and I'm too conservative to be a Democrat.  Which is why my first post on the thread was pro-third party and not so much pro or anti Rep or Dem, because frankly I don't like either party.

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 07:11:43 PM
This is the problem we have in the US: only the Democrats and the Republicans stand a chance in winning. I don't care much for the Republicans and I cannot bring myself to vote Democrat.  Unfortunately, those are the only two parties we have to choose from.  Sure, I could vote for a third party, but that party has no chance in winning whatsoever.  So as it stands now, whether we have a Democrat or a Republican in power, we're screwed.

So... we may have difficulties if either party wins, but we need to look @ the lesser of 2 evils. If Dems get elected we may be screwed, but we may enjoy the screwing a little at least. If Red continues to reign screwing would not be the right word, rather <not allowed>. Its the difference between a bruised knee and an amputaed one.

< Edited by moderator >

Quote from: gracefulhat on October 22, 2018, 08:42:59 PM
So... we may have difficulties if either party wins, but we need to look @ the lesser of 2 evils. If Dems get elected we may be screwed, but we may enjoy the screwing a little at least. If Red continues to reign screwing would not be the right word, rather <not allowed>. Its the difference between a bruised knee and an amputaed one.

< Edited by moderator >

I never enjoy being screwed over by anyone.  From my perspective we have the lesser of two evils.  I don't love everything about the Trump administration or the Republicans, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for the alternative.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

-Martin Niemoller

I do want to give some hope to people who hate the fact that there are only two choices on the ballot in the United States (I am one of those people). There is a small but growing movement to get states to adopt Ranked Choice Voting (or RCV for short), which would effectively eliminate the "wasted vote" aspect of voting for an independent or a member of a minor political party.

Many cities have adopted RCV, and Maine is the first state to use RCV for the first time this election cycle for certain races. There is strong donor interest in promoting this idea in other states.

I think many more states are going to adopt RCV over the next decade, especially in states where RCV can be put on a ballot initiative. It will take a lot of voter education and overcoming stalling tactics by both incumbent major parties, and diehards in both parties are going to hate it. But for the majority of people who want more real choice in the ballot box, RCV will be welcome.

For more information, see http://www.fairvote.org (http://www.fairvote.org), which is emerging as the lead organization promoting this idea. (Disclosure: I am a supporter of FairVote.)

Like it or not, my country, the US of A is a country of laws. There are lawful means to effect change. Ever since the current lawfully elected president of the US , (POTUS)won the election to the total consternation of the ruling class,  "resistance" BY ANY MEANS  has been the norm. This chaos is a recipe for disaster.
What most here are railing about is the reversal of an executive order by the previous president. Had he done it right by the will of the people, there would be not problem. Instead he planted these seeds of disorder by going around the will of the people causing a predictable backlash which is what you are experiencing now.
Sadly, what was once a scientific,  objective conversation has been hi-jacked by political activists who are motivated by identity politics.
What many of you are not seeing is that your cause is NOT being exploited not by the Right who could not possibly care less,  but by the Left who has little else to use against a winning policy of economic growth and National Security.
Sure hope l don't get blasted into oblivion for just stating the obvious. 😲😲😲😲😲😲😞😞😞😞😥

QuoteSocialism does not work.  The only people who benefit from communist/socialist systems are those in power - the rest suffer.

Socialism and communism are two entirely different things.  There are also variations in socialism.  Is it wrong to help those who need help?  Or would you prefer to have Trump cutting millions off health care so he can give tax cuts to the wealth?  When do we end all this "socialism" for the wealthy and corporations?

Can I make a request please?

Instead of denigrating each other can we rally around addressing this issue:

Please read this:

https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae (https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae)


This is what Reuter's published:

https://reut.rs/2yWsulR (https://reut.rs/2yWsulR)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

For our existence, for our future, for our lively hood we must vote blue. If we vote 3rd party or not at all, we are throwing our votes away. I will not be scarified because of other issues when my very existence is at sake. #notsorry.


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Ultimately, what it all boils down to is that we all want the same thing - what's best for our nation.  We just have different opinions on how to achieve that.  We don't have to agree with one another on every issue, but we do need to unite as one people.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 22, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
..........science is not taken as fact, and money controls everything.

Please forgive me for taking just this part of your posts out of context, but l think it raises an interesting point.
"Science" is usually understood as conclusions or descriptions of fact, based on objective study or empirical data.
Unfortunately,   as you so astutely point out, "science" is subject to funding. For example, of the 31 studies used to "prove" global warming,  31of them are funded by the US Government ie, the EPA. Every single one of these studies predict catastrophic temperature rise. Unfortunately,  or fortunately that hasn't happened.
Nevertheless climate change MUST be accepted as "established science" or any dissenting is classed as denying.

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 09:51:20 PM
Ultimately, what it all boils down to is that we all want the same thing - what's best for our nation. 

I think that this is a very dangerous attitude!  That would mean, if some political leader declares something to be best for our nation, we have to live with it, no matter if it kills us or not?

As a son of a concentration camp survivor, something like this makes my toe nails curl up!  Hitler was of the opinion that it was best for the German nation if the Jews were eliminated,  because they caused the Germans whatever.    That it was the best for the German nation that pople like my mother would be brought into a concentration camp and later gased to death and burned, some of the victims were not even dead??

What if Trump decides that it is the best for the US nation if people like us are not good for the nation

Yes, as long as it is best for our nation we kill all the  natives, hold slaves and if we don't like those human abnormalities, Transgender and Intergender, etc. creatures, we eliminate them, too.  After all, it is good for the nation!

Quote from: Complete on October 22, 2018, 09:31:38 PM
What most here are railing about is the reversal of an executive order by the previous president. Had he done it right by the will of the people, there would be not problem.

Given republican catering to the religious right, it would never have gotten through teh senate... but even without the Religious Right, remember teh republican opposed EVERYTHING  Obama tried to do, even though he trued to make his initial proposals for legislation a compromise right off the bat ... Even his supt=reme court pic was not a nearly as politically extreme as Trump. Obama started off trying to be bipartisan but the only thing teh Republicans cared about was making him a "one term president" and opposition everything.

Secondly human rights should not be up for a vote. They should not be subject to the tyranny of the majority...

Quote
Sadly, what was once a scientific,  objective conversation has been hi-jacked by political activists who are motivated by identity politics.

As much as we would like to think otherwise, there is no definitive scientist proof of the source of gender identity...

And not all of us can be stealth.

Quote
What many of you are not seeing is that your cause is NOT being exploited not by the Right who could not possibly care less,  but by the Left who has little else to use against a winning policy of economic growth and National Security.

That is simply wrong... Who sponsored Massachusetts Ballot Question 3 to repeal state legal protection for us in the state? I can assure you it was not the left

Economically what he is doing is short term boost (overstimulating - with most of the benefits going to those who don't need them) and a long term disaster financial disaster in the making for the country... ... But republicans only care about such things when the Democrats are in power.

The long term effects on Nation Security are also not good but I don't have time to go into that.

Quote
Sure hope l don't get blasted into oblivion for just stating the obvious. 😲😲😲😲😲😲😞😞😞😞😥

Not exactly obvious since it is HIGHLY debatable.

- Karen

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 10:18:46 PM
I think that this is a very dangerous attitude!  That would mean, if some political leader declares something to be best for our nation, we have to live with it, no matter if it kills us or not?

As a son of a concentration camp survivor, something like this makes my toe nails curl up!  Hitler was of the opinion that it was best for the German nation if the Jews were eliminated,  because they caused the Germans whatever.    That it was the best for the German nation that pople like my mother would be brought into a concentration camp and later gased to death and burned, some of the victims were not even dead??

What if Trump decides that it is the best for the US nation if people like us are not good for the nation

Yes, as long as it is best for our nation we kill all the  natives, hold slaves and if we don't like those human abnormalities, Transgender and Intergender, etc. creatures, we eliminate them, too.  After all, it is good for the nation!

So are you saying I shouldn't vote according to what I think is best?  You are referring to us going along with whatever our political leaders say is best for our nation and that is NOT what I said.  I was saying that we the voters want what is best.  So again, if it is dangerous for me to vote according to what I think is right, then how would you have me vote?

Actually, what is best for America would to elect a Congress, Senate, and President that are like the majority of its citizens. The majority are not extremists. The majority are neither tax and spend, nor are they ultra rich elitists that want to erase us. The majority wouldn't give huge bailouts when banks or corporations fail. The majority are not narrow minded bigots that would strip away civil rights of entire segments of society they consider scum.

Unfortunately, the majority cannot raise enough money to defeat those already in power, and take the extremists out of power. We believe the lies, while hoping they will do as they claim. Ultimately, we get disappointment, because those in power are all liars, and they will do whatever they want. In this case, we have a narcissistic president throwing tantrums at anyone or any group that upsets him.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 07:28:25 PM
Yes, the democrats are not the holy grale either, but with them at the helm, we have a slight chance that the stupid electoral college system goes by the wayside, and a popular voting system will be established!

Think it over and than think about screwed again!

Lose the electoral college and the minority loses it voice. It becomes a case of mob rule so if somebody decides the red states should become a toxic waste dump, it will. The founding father created the electoral college as a way for the minority to have a voice. If you don't understand this, remember the pledge of allegiance. It says Republic and not Democracy. This is the key to understanding the beauty of the constitution.

Makes me really doubt their Christianity because it goes against everything Jesus Christ taught us. Trump is making Christ like Obama by rolling back or writing executive orders. Like this gem which is only the second greatest commandment. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 09:34:19 PM
Can I make a request please?

Instead of denigrating each other can we rally around addressing this issue:

Please read this:

https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae (https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae)


This is what Reuter's published:

https://reut.rs/2yWsulR (https://reut.rs/2yWsulR)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I feel totally ignored
Kate


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 10:30:53 PM
So are you saying I shouldn't vote according to what I think is best?  You are referring to us going along with whatever our political leaders say is best for our nation and that is NOT what I said.  I was saying that we the voters want what is best.  So again, if it is dangerous for me to vote according to what I think is right, then how would you have me vote?

I think you misunderstood.
I said we should vote what is best or the people, the people are the nation, and not what political leaders define it to be.
we are the people, yes, we transgender folks are part of the people, and we should vote for leaders who will make sure that we poor little trans have a chance to survive.  The current leader want to deny us this very chance, there for we have to vote for people, who will allow us to live in peace and the little bit of happiness we can find.

That is what I am saying, and it happens that currently the democrats are our best chance to stay alive!
Once we were able to eliminate that terrible system of the electoral college, we might have the chance to find leaders who do us way better than either the dems or the reps.  But for the time we have to vote for the dems!

Quote from: Dena on October 22, 2018, 10:58:29 PM
Lose the electoral college and the minority loses it voice. It becomes a case of mob rule so if somebody decides the red states should become a toxic waste dump, it will. The founding father created the electoral college as a way for the minority to have a voice. If you don't understand this, remember the pledge of allegiance. It says Republic and not Democracy. This is the key to understanding the beauty of the constitution.

ll the other democratic countries in the world seem to do very well without the electoral college.
And no the electoral college was not established to give the minority a vote, the idea behind it as to take the vote away.  because the minority of those day was not able to read or write, and the founding fathers were of the opinion they knew better what was good for the people (they were the 1% of those days, almost all of them were filthy rich) and have the buffer of the electoral college between the voting public and the final decission.

If you want more detailed info, I have to ask a friend of mine who teaches political science at the University of Minnesota

Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 11:22:30 PM
I feel totally ignored
Kate


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

i read your links and they seem to confirm what we are discussing here, that our rights as a minority group of the society are absolutely on the chopping block

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 11:31:38 PM
I think you misunderstood.
I said we should vote what is best or the people, the people are the nation, and not what political leaders define it to be.
we are the people, yes, we transgender folks are part of the people, and we should vote for leaders who will make sure that we poor little trans have a chance to survive.  The current leader want to deny us this very chance, there for we have to vote for people, who will allow us to live in peace and the little bit of happiness we can find.

That is what I am saying, and it happens that currently the democrats are our best chance to stay alive!
Once we were able to eliminate that terrible system of the electoral college, we might have the chance to find leaders who do us way better than either the dems or the reps.  But for the time we have to vote for the dems!

I agree completely that we should vote for what is best for us!  But you misunderstood what I was saying.  I was saying that even though we the people may be on different sides of the political fence, we both want what is best for our nation even if we don't agree on how to achieve it.  I never said anything about what our leaders think is best.  Basically, it's a way to end the debate by agreeing to disagree.  I have a hard time voting for the Dems or the Reps.  I don't like either.  You may disagree with that and if so, then that is your right and I respect that.  My view is that while I fully support trans and LGBT issues as a whole, my vote regardless of which party I vote for is not based on that alone.

Quote from: Danielle Kristina on October 22, 2018, 11:45:51 PM
I agree completely that we should vote for what is best for us!  But you misunderstood what I was saying.  I was saying that even though we the people may be on different sides of the political fence, we both want what is best for our nation even if we don't agree on how to achieve it.  I never said anything about what our leaders think is best.  Basically, it's a way to end the debate by agreeing to disagree.  I have a hard time voting for the Dems or the Reps.  I don't like either.  You may disagree with that and if so, then that is your right and I respect that.  My view is that while I fully support trans and LGBT issues as a whole, my vote regardless of which party I vote for is not based on that alone.

Mine is because my existence and acknowledge mean more to me then most other issues. I'm not sacrificing myself for another issue.


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Quote from: Dena on October 22, 2018, 10:58:29 PM
Lose the electoral college and the minority loses it voice. It becomes a case of mob rule so if somebody decides the red states should become a toxic waste dump, it will. The founding father created the electoral college as a way for the minority to have a voice. If you don't understand this, remember the pledge of allegiance. It says Republic and not Democracy. This is the key to understanding the beauty of the constitution.

I'd rather say the electoral college was chosen as a means to protect the land owners who founded the nation from what they perceived as the mob (I would say population). Their fears came in no small part in response to the French revolution.

The so called wise founders were quite happy with state rules that only allowed voting by white land owners and until the 1830s the president was voted into office by a mere 2-4% of the population. The Senate was chosen by state legislators until 1913 and it wasn't until the 1940s that women were voting in equal numbers to men.

Our constitution makes 3rd parties effectively meaningless, limited to left wing fringe in the case of the green party and manipulation by the likes of Ross Perot and the Koch brothers on the right.

Personally I prefer the constitutional democracies of Europe to the mess that we have.

As for tyranny, the agriculture states form a 30% voting block in the Senate, effectively giving control of an entire legislative body to a group elected by a tiny fraction of the US population and firmly in the pockets of big money / agribusiness. We have agricultural subsidies for a reason and Trump most recently has completely screwed the states that put him in office with trade tarrifs and is is buying back their good will with still more agriculture subsidies.

Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 09:34:19 PM
Can I make a request please?

Instead of denigrating each other can we rally around addressing this issue:

Please read this:

https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae (https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae)


This is what Reuter's published:

https://reut.rs/2yWsulR (https://reut.rs/2yWsulR)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

@jkredman

I'm reading it now.

Sonja.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 11:37:44 PM
ll the other democratic countries in the world seem to do very well without the electoral college.
And no the electoral college was not established to give the minority a vote, the idea behind it as to take the vote away.  because the minority of those day was not able to read or write, and the founding fathers were of the opinion they knew better what was good for the people (they were the 1% of those days, almost all of them were filthy rich) and have the buffer of the electoral college between the voting public and the final decission.

If you want more detailed info, I have to ask a friend of mine who teaches political science at the University of Minnesota

It's a popular myth that people couldn't read. The truth is they may have been better educated than many people are today. Newspapers were commonly circulated with the federalist and anti federalist papers being the subject of many conversations while deciding the vote on the constitution. The founding fathers were very aware that more than one view point exist for any argument and a decision needs to evaluate all view points. There is nothing wrong with the wealth having a say as it's there money the people without money will be spending. The worst possible outcome is when one spends money they didn't earn. The best outcome is when a person spends money they earned as they value the money and don't waste it.

Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 09:34:19 PM
Can I make a request please?

Instead of denigrating each other can we rally around addressing this issue:

Please read this:

https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae (https://apnews.com/2ba2749a85fd4db69d4e7ec964c4c9ae)


This is what Reuter's published:

https://reut.rs/2yWsulR (https://reut.rs/2yWsulR)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Trump says transgender policy seeks to 'protect the country', (here is a video of him saying this (https://www.yahoo.com/news/im-protecting-everybody-president-trump-220500908.html)). The question is from what? Us???

Quote from: jkredman on October 22, 2018, 11:22:30 PM
I feel totally ignored
Kate

I read both articles, Kate, thank you for posting them. 

My genderfluid (aka also transgender) SO sent me this article, and I have to admit I feel that this article hit the nail on the head.  The current POTUS is doing classic bullying and attention-seeking behavior.  >:( 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alexandra-billings-donald-trump-transgender_us_5bcde493e4b0a8f17eeee021 (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alexandra-billings-donald-trump-transgender_us_5bcde493e4b0a8f17eeee021)

Sydney_NYC, I think he's "protecting the country from people not afraid to be true to themselves." 

I'm waiting for him to go after us Goths next.  "I'm protecting the country from people who wear black clothes, leather and capes!"  Or he could also be thinking we're vampires too.  ::) 

Ryuichi

Trans erasure is a hate crime. Let's all wait and see where it goes. If the worst happens, sue the government. We are a form of freedom of speach and expression. Use that! Nonetheless, VOTE!

Excuse me for throwing in my two cents worth from Scotland, UK. I don't know enough about American politics to be specific on what the Trump administration is up to *this week* but I can make an informed comment on the general political landscape...

It seems to me this anti-LGBTi Rights is part of a massive overall swing to the right in the USA and right across Europe. If you look at what's happening at street level, due to Trump over your side & Brexit over here, the right-wing think they have a green light to let out their fascist, racist, sectarian & in many cases outright Nazi viewpoints in the public arena.

No longer do neo-Nazis wear skinheads, doc martin bovver boots and braces etc... They are hiding in plain sight amongst all of us - sometimes in smart suits, sometimes in designer sports labels but always blended in - until they open their mouths.

The left & centrist Neo-Liberals have lost touch with the ordinary workers & citizens everywhere. The right-wing haven't won anything, they've filled the gap once occupied by moderate socialism and common-sense politics. When things go wrong, the right-wing will blame everyone who isn't on-board with their agenda. Project Fear worked for Hitler and it's working for Trump, the UK Tories & a thousand facist movements around the world. The 99% need to fully waken up to what's happening around them.

Reading this today left me feeling a little sick and totally stunned. I received an email from a friend who was so angry she could barely contain herself in the short email to me. I have been looking around the internet this evening trying to gauge how people are feeling about this and I have come away feeling very uneasy. I am in Australia so I have no personal/political feeling either way about which party or who is running the country, I will confess I don't have a particularly high opinion of Mr Trump but that is for personal reasons but I do care what happens to my friends. I can't do much other than say "I am with you all" and I hope common sense and calm prevail.

Liz

I am somewhat disappointed as somewhat of an observer to this discussion as well Liz. As non US citizen I do not have any voting rights. However living here means that I am affected by this and similar legislation and policy.


What I see as very disturbing is that what we see here is only a small reflection of what is going on in the US society as a whole. It does not matter the topic, the two sides are so entrenched in their own views that it often ends in aggression and even personal attacks.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.

People align with the party they feel provides the most overlap with their own beliefs and values. I do not know a single person who can say they back their party 100%. There will always be disagreement with certain positions or legislative actions.

I have friends across the entire religious and political spectrum. I don't have to agree with all their beliefs but they are still my friends. We don't shove our beliefs into each other's faces, we do still discuss politics on occasion and exchange our views.

I don't like the personal attacks I am seeing. We all share a common trait: we are trans. We should be sticking together and be strong as one to defend our rights.

I am very scared how much of the progress the trans community has made is being rolled back at the moment, sometimes defying the majority of science. Yes, I am scared for my future. I still choose to take the high road. There is a lot we can do in the realm of a civil discourse and action. Attacking each other just divides us even more.

Hugs,

Sarah

Quote from: LizK on October 23, 2018, 05:48:01 AM
Reading this today left me feeling a little sick and totally stunned. I received an email from a friend who was so angry she could barely contain herself in the short email to me. I have been looking around the internet this evening trying to gauge how people are feeling about this and I have come away feeling very uneasy. I am in Australia so I have no personal/political feeling either way about which party or who is running the country, I will confess I don't have a particularly high opinion of Mr Trump but that is for personal reasons but I do care what happens to my friends. I can't do much other than say "I am with you all" and I hope common sense and calm prevail.

Liz

Quote from: Johnni Gyrl on October 23, 2018, 05:10:56 AM
Excuse me for throwing in my two cents worth from Scotland, UK. I don't know enough about American politics to be specific on what the Trump administration is up to *this week* but I can make an informed comment on the general political landscape...

It seems to me this anti-LGBTi Rights is part of a massive overall swing to the right in the USA and right across Europe. If you look at what's happening at street level, due to Trump over your side & Brexit over here, the right-wing think they have a green light to let out their fascist, racist, sectarian & in many cases outright Nazi viewpoints in the public arena.

No longer do neo-Nazis wear skinheads, doc martin bovver boots and braces etc... They are hiding in plain sight amongst all of us - sometimes in smart suits, sometimes in designer sports labels but always blended in - until they open their mouths.

The left & centrist Neo-Liberals have lost touch with the ordinary workers & citizens everywhere. The right-wing haven't won anything, they've filled the gap once occupied by moderate socialism and common-sense politics. When things go wrong, the right-wing will blame everyone who isn't on-board with their agenda. Project Fear worked for Hitler and it's working for Trump, the UK Tories & a thousand facist movements around the world. The 99% need to fully waken up to what's happening around them.

FYI, I'm pro-Brexit, pro-Capitalism, pro Freemarket Economics and do NOT identify as a neo-nazi.

The EU is a protectionist club for the wealthy old-guard nations, and if Brexit allows the UK to trade freely and openly with the World and not just a single bloc, then I fully support it, including allowing movement of people - this is real liberalism and gives opportunity to all. The EU has had many benefits for the UK, but in a global world and economy,  it's time is done.

I'm am NOT a fan of Trump, but I have the wits to understand that not every politician on one side of a house has it in for me and not every one on the other side is my biggest fan. I guarantee that personal attacks on others diminish us though.

I might think that the members of this site would understand that life is not black & white, but maybe not [emoji853]



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Quote from: SadieBlake on October 22, 2018, 11:49:21 PM
I'd rather say the electoral college was chosen as a means to protect the land owners who founded the nation from what they perceived as the mob (I would say population). Their fears came in no small part in response to the French revolution.

The so called wise founders were quite happy with state rules that only allowed voting by white land owners and until the 1830s the president was voted into office by a mere 2-4% of the population. The Senate was chosen by state legislators until 1913 and it wasn't until the 1940s that women were voting in equal numbers to men.

Our constitution makes 3rd parties effectively meaningless, limited to left wing fringe in the case of the green party and manipulation by the likes of Ross Perot and the Koch brothers on the right.

Personally I prefer the constitutional democracies of Europe to the mess that we have.

As for tyranny, the agriculture states form a 30% voting block in the Senate, effectively giving control of an entire legislative body to a group elected by a tiny fraction of the US population and firmly in the pockets of big money / agribusiness. We have agricultural subsidies for a reason and Trump most recently has completely screwed the states that put him in office with trade tarrifs and is is buying back their good will with still more agriculture subsidies.

I think we have pretty much the same political understanding and ideology!  I could not have said it better!  The holier than thou founding fathers wer nothing than a bunch of self serving rich people who were happy to maintain the status quo (including having slaves)!

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 23, 2018, 12:53:37 AM

Trump says transgender policy seeks to 'protect the country', (here is a video of him saying this (https://www.yahoo.com/news/im-protecting-everybody-president-trump-220500908.html)). The question is from what? Us???

That seems to be, because we sneak into the bathrooms of the opposite to our birth certificate gender, and do there all kind of filthy things (like using even toilet paper or something dirty like this)

Quote from: sarah1972 on October 23, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
s.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.


Hugs,

Sarah

Sarah, I too grew up in a country with several political parties, and that reflects the political culture i like to see.  But in addition to many of you here, I had a mother who was singled out because of her ethnicity (she was a practicing catholic) and thrown into a concentration camp, and almost was murdered there!
I see very clear similarities going on in this country, of which I am a citizen now, and I do not want to end up like my mother, simply because I am different to the majority of the population!  OK, I am pretty old, but I am also fighting for the young people, several of them are here in our forum, that they can live a life of fulfillment, and not of fear to be rounded up one day and thrown into a camp like my mother!

I might be a little more sensitized than many, but I wish people in Germany would have woken up earlier when Hitler was doing his demagogic actions!  I see the same here in this country, and hope that the people are waking up!

Hey @SkyVoices !
In all this discussions about political ->-bleeped-<- we almost missed you :) Though it brought you to signing in, there is a lot of more positive topics and subforums :)
Why don't you start from Introductions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) subforum to let people know a little more about you than your political views? :)

If according to the definition that health and human services are trying to put though

The department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined "on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable."

Can someone explain how this would affect those who are intersexed? How are they going to define those who are BOTH male and female? How is the AMA going to handle it?

We both grew up in Germany and we both share the same concern on what is currently going on and about the future. This makes it even more important to stick together and take action, speak up for our rights. Fighting between each other and attacking others is not helping our cause. We need every single one to be visible, out and defend our rights, no matter if they are leaning Democrat or Republican.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 23, 2018, 08:06:06 AM

Quote from: sarah1972 on October 23, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
s.

Having grown up in a country with more than 2 parties there was always the need for a reasonable discussion and finding compromises to pass legislation and it has reflected on society. In the US it is mostly black and white.


Hugs,

Sarah

Sarah, I too grew up in a country with several political parties, and that reflects the political culture i like to see.  But in addition to many of you here, I had a mother who was singled out because of her ethnicity (she was a practicing catholic) and thrown into a concentration camp, and almost was murdered there!
I see very clear similarities going on in this country, of which I am a citizen now, and I do not want to end up like my mother, simply because I am different to the majority of the population!  OK, I am pretty old, but I am also fighting for the young people, several of them are here in our forum, that they can live a life of fulfillment, and not of fear to be rounded up one day and thrown into a camp like my mother!

I might be a little more sensitized than many, but I wish people in Germany would have woken up earlier when Hitler was doing his demagogic actions!  I see the same here in this country, and hope that the people are waking up!

Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 12:11:21 AM
There is nothing wrong with the wealth having a say as it's there money the people without money will be spending. The worst possible outcome is when one spends money they didn't earn. The best outcome is when a person spends money they earned as they value the money and don't waste it.

Dena, those assertions really come down  to value judgements (in that I can construct microeconomic arguments for them or diametrically opposed). Certainly you're right in line with the Puritan line of the early US leadership.

The pros and cons also date back to the Federalist papers tho again, I think those all must be read from a fundamental and self serving belief that the common.folk, (slaves, working class and of course women) must not be allowed to vote.

As for the validity of applying that philosophy to managing the economy, Alan Greenspan ought to serve as adequate proof that ultimately it didn't work.

I've had the good fortune to listen to Paul Samuelson and Robert Solow discussing the fiscal policy of the Regan administration and I have an acquaintance who's a decidedly conservative econ proof at a U in upstate NY and I'm perfectly happy to conclude he's a crackpot.

QuoteThere is nothing wrong with the wealth having a say as it's there money the people without money will be spending. The worst possible outcome is when one spends money they didn't earn. The best outcome is when a person spends money they earned as they value the money and don't waste it.

So, the wealthy should have more of a vote than others?  Very  often it's the wealthy that cause the problems and they already have more than enough opportunity to express their views.  As for those who spend money they didn't "earn", what about those who for some reason are unable to earn a living?  Are they to be left destitute?  How do you justify Trump's tax cuts that benefit the wealthy, while cutting millions of from health care?  What about the working poor?  There's a large percentage of the population that despite working full time and then some, are denied a living income.  Why is it so wrong to help them?  Of course, we can't escape the fact that many of them are poor because of the wealthy denying them a decent income.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 22, 2018, 11:39:31 PM
i read your links and they seem to confirm what we are discussing here, that our rights as a minority group of the society are absolutely on the chopping block

Yes our existence is on the chopping block.

What I was asking is that we rally together and get beyond the infighting I've been reading in this thread.


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Quote from: gracefulhat on October 22, 2018, 08:42:59 PM
So... we may have difficulties if either party wins, but we need to look @ the lesser of 2 evils. If Dems get elected we may be screwed, but we may enjoy the screwing a little at least. If Red continues to reign screwing would not be the right word, rather <not allowed>. Its the difference between a bruised knee and an amputaed one.



(Edit but Moderator)

It doesn't have to be that way, but emotions, beliefs and tribal non-sense trump logic and reason. It's always been that way no matter how far we've come socially. One possible answer is sortition.


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My first inclination in instances such as this is to take a deep breath, don't panic and understand the real threats and then address them through resistance, protest, political action etc. There is no doubt that a narrow segment of our political spectrum is using as a fodder for a continued cultural war and then hope to benefit from the political turmoil. This then translates into increased danger for many of us and in some ways a spotlight of bigotry results as those who would hate us see some "official" endorsement to do so. This allows said politicians to distract the nation from efforts to further fill their pockets.

As has been stated here though, we do have at least a partially functioning democracy remaining. State governments and state laws act as a buffer. (there are 13 states that specifically protect gender identity) There is a court system that would no doubt challenge any executive orders and if they went the legislation route, it would take a long time to move through the houses of Congress and then the laws still face legal challenges. The executive order route just attempts to do things that bypass legislation and as we have seen from the transgender military ban attempts those meet with a lot of contempt within the bureaucracy that has to implement it.

Get out and vote, organize politically, be visible and productive members of society, face danger if you must. Have a plan and work it.

I'm one that has not changed her federal ID for no really good reason, other than I was waiting for post-divorce and that is dragging itself out. I accept that it may have been the wrong choice. It's a fact that a narrow segment of our society would love to hate us in this way and are encouraging their politicians on these hate efforts. They are narrow though. and the chances that the rest of society is going to turn back on us because of it, while not impossible are unlikely.

Finally, it occurred to me that this would be a good reason to be granted asylum in another country like Canada, UK, Scandinavian countries etc. if things ever do become much more painful. What better reason than your government refusing to recognize you exist and protect your rights?

I think these threads have proven what has, to me, become obvious over the past 2 years.
We are way past the point of being able to persuade the other side with ideas and arguments.  We are shouting at each other over the fence.  It's background noise at this point.  The only thing that matters now is turnout. For me personally, I'm voting Blue and volunteering Blue.

Actually Jane I have been persuaded. Although I have never voted democrat before I will be this election, with the exception of one self admitted communist district rep. Sorry I don't care what happens I won't do communism. But if you dem's start your gun grabbing crap I will go back to voting red in 2024.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 23, 2018, 12:16:27 PM
Actually Jane I have been persuaded. Although I have never voted democrat before I will be this election, with the exception of one self admitted communist district rep. Sorry I don't care what happens I won't do communism. But if you dem's start your gun grabbing crap I will go back to voting red in 2024.

A real communist? (not a democratic socialist or socialist workers party of america?, there is a big difference) We have a democratic socialist that may win a local seat here in Oregon.

I remember when the USA Communist party as it existed was headquartered in my home state of Minnesota way up north in an area famous for union miners. I'm not sure if they still exist up there but there was a little museum last time I looked. Another bit of leftist trivia is that Minnesota was one of possibly the only states that elected socialists to the Governor's post back in the 30s and 40s

You have to vote your conscious for sure, to me, that means the candidates that most represent equality and human rights and have at least some record or history to match it, then I go to the environment next because after all mars colonization is going to be few and a long way off. Economics and foreign policy are distant after that. To me, it is plain which groups protect and even celebrate their LGTBQ+ constituents

Separate from voting though, there is a lot that can be done via resistance and organization, both for ourselves and the ones that come after us.

Oh trust me, with every issue that the current POTUS has tried to repeal, destroy or otherwise subvert, more and more Americans are waking up to the fact that "I might be next!" 

I have been, and am currently involved in the Transgender community.  The day he cheated...uh "won" the highest office in the land, I galvanized, having decided even before I started transitioning that "I wasn't going to stand still and do nothing should he decide to pick on the LGBT+ community!"  I'm happy to say that I am not the only one to get motivated after Nov 2016. 

More and more people are not tolerating the things he is doing to whatever group he is picking on at the moment.  More and more people are protesting his outrageous policies, getting out to vote, and running for government office that might not have done so otherwise. 

Trust me, we are NOT going to "just stand by and let his evil happen!"  Americans are known for fighting for what we believe in, and if that means protesting, running for office, or getting people out to vote, it'll be done!

I refuse to believe that we Americans will let bigotry win, this fight, or ANY unjust fight.

Ryuichi

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Quote from: Megan. on October 23, 2018, 07:11:11 AM
FYI, I'm pro-Brexit, pro-Capitalism, pro Freemarket Economics and do NOT identify as a neo-nazi.

The EU is a protectionist club for the wealthy old-guard nations, and if Brexit allows the UK to trade freely and openly with the World and not just a single bloc, then I fully support it, including allowing movement of people - this is real liberalism and gives opportunity to all. The EU has had many benefits for the UK, but in a global world and economy,  it's time is done.

I'm am NOT a fan of Trump, but I have the wits to understand that not every politician on one side of a house has it in for me and not every one on the other side is my biggest fan. I guarantee that personal attacks on others diminish us though.

I might think that the members of this site would understand that life is not black & white, but maybe not [emoji853]



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Megan - I am also pro-Brexit, as the EU spider web works only for the 1% Elite. Ask the people of Greece & Catalonia what they think of it, I'm sure they'd agree with us both. Nor did I suggest every pro-Brexiteer was a neo-Nazi. However, many of those people with far right-wing ideology have jumped on the Brexit bandwagon - which should have been about making a fresh start for Britain, rather than racism, fascism & dragging the Uk backwards by trying to build Empire V.2.

The point is the far-right think they are and *are* getting away with much more than they did before Trump & Brexit, hence the 'green light' mentioned in my first comment.

Trickle down economics isn't working either, it only trickles upwards, despite the positive rhetoric of the free market-eers. So, we'll have to disagree on those points. I support controlled capitalism, as free reign markets have completely failed time & again to help those at the bottom even gain a foothold upwards.

And back to the original point - far-right ideology is well entwined with anti-LGBT rights and it is this ideology which preys on the weak minded and easy manipulated that is on the rise.

Quote from: SkyVoices on October 23, 2018, 03:37:54 AM
Trans erasure is a hate crime. Let's all wait and see where it goes. If the worst happens, sue the government. We are a form of freedom of speach and expression. Use that! Nonetheless, VOTE!

@SkyVoices
Dear SkyVoices:
    Let's take a quick break from the subject of this thread and allow me to Welcome you to the Susan's Place Forums.
    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others have done regarding your transition journey that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.
    There are a lot of members here that will be able to identify with your situation as you continue to feel free to share it.

    Please allow me to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place. 
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    You can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***It's a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new friends here. 

    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
I have included information about the site that will help you navigate around and best utilize the features here.   
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle

Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that all new members should be familiar with:

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)	Cautionary Note (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,82221.0.html)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)	Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html)

@SkyVoices 
Oh, and another thing SkyVoices:
Please find your way to the  Introductions Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) and write a brief introduction post and summary about yourself and your questions & concerns so that more members here on the Susan's Place forums will be aware of your arrival and therefore you may obtain more responses and information that you might be looking for.

Enjoy your time here on the Forums, I trust that you will find this an enjoyable and informative experience.
Best wishes to you.... and again, Welcome to Susan's Place
Danielle

Allow me to state once again for those in the US that think we area a democracy and that what the president does matters, and for those outside the US that think what the president does reflects the majority of US citizens views/beliefs:

We are a representative republic.  We are not a democracy.
The president is a figure head with limited ability to recommend policies for certain federal agencies.
The States and the people in those States are the only ones with power.
Devlyn tried to politely tell you all that it is the congress (house of representatives and senate) that make laws; not the president.
The people of the States have individual abilities to pass their own laws that go against the federal government.  I will give you one example: marijuana.
The majority of the country is not anti lgbt.  Polls and other studies have shown that.
What the president does affects the federal agencies, and the States that rely on monies from those agencies.  If the States disagree, they can sue, or just ignore the Fed. (again, marijuana, sanctuary cities, etc.).
Your best best is what Devlyn said: Term Limits.  Get those lifetime senators and representative OUT.
Vote locally to start the ground up implementation of representatives that meet your ideals.
If you live in a State that goes against your ideals time and again, then fight or move to one that suits you.
Stop denigrating people, and especially people here on this forum, for their political ideals and beliefs.  That is what congress does and we all know how well that is working right now.  Agree to disagree and love each other, dammit.

I would remind you that this is cyclical.  The right was just as up in arms when obama and his peeps took office and did the ACA, the big 1.6 trillion dollar bailout, etc., as the left is now.  He had limited ability to affect our lives beyond the State's laws, too.  Multiple States took the US Gov to court over ACA...

My 2 cents. :)

Congress and the senate are much more important and powerful than the president.

We're actually a constitutional republic.

The President absolutely matters, if it weren't for Trump we wouldn't have Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court, for one. And while the President does not directly create laws, they certainly have an influence over Congress and can introduce legislation by proxy. The ACA would not have been presented and then passed without Obama's influence.

Yes he matters, but the president does not have free reign. The check and balance system does work for the most part. I've researched and have not found a better system. This could be as good as it gets.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 23, 2018, 12:16:27 PM
Actually Jane I have been persuaded. Although I have never voted democrat before I will be this election, with the exception of one self admitted communist district rep. Sorry I don't care what happens I won't do communism. But if you dem's start your gun grabbing crap I will go back to voting red in 2024.

If my Dems ever start to put their fingers on my guns, they are not my Dems anymore!

However, there have never been any Dems who really wanted to go for the guns.  This was only fear mongering from the NRA and some extreme right wing groups. 
I was in the inside of the Dems in Minnesota, one of the really blue states, but also one of the states with a high amount of gun ownership per capita.  Half of the Dem leadership there could have compete with the National Guard concerning being armed. 
Nobody ever mentioned to take anybody's guns away.  The only guns that are not liked (by most Americans) are military style assault guns.

As I say, if anybody of the Dems come for our guns, I march with you arm in arm to the Rep side!

The balance of power between the executive and legislative branches has moved back and forth a lot over U.S. history.  We are currently living in a time when the President wields an awful lot of power.  Take the power to wage war.  One of the most consequential powers.  In theory, the Congress should control this but as a practical matter that has not been the case for a long time.  In the case of the gender controversy the proposed changes are coming from the executive branch all the way, not Congress.  Trump is filling the federal government with people that are extremely anti-LGBT, and that has a major impact.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 23, 2018, 04:49:12 PM
Yes he matters, but the president does not have free reign. The check and balance system does work for the most part. I've researched and have not found a better system. This could be as good as it gets.

As the pendulum may swing
As the momentum may build
Inevitability creates it's own demise
And conclusions may be killed

The effect of this admin on the Supreme Court is by far the most egregious to our cause as a marginalized community.  Everything else he does CAN be undone relatively quickly.  But even the Supreme Court changes over time.  I'll be honest and say that I am palpably scared with what has been happening.  I only take solace in knowing that even if things do nothing but get worse over the course of my lifetime, I am confident that eventually this will all be a nightmare long forgotten in better times.  May we all see those times soon.

I lost my faith a long time ago but I still have hope.  Else I wouldn't be here to continue hoping.

A response by WPATH and USPATH was released overnight you can read it here

https://www.wpath.org/

WPATH Board Responds to Federal Effort to Redefine Gender -

Quote from: Cindy on October 23, 2018, 05:26:33 PM
A response by WPATH and USPATH was released overnight you can read it here

https://www.wpath.org/

WPATH Board Responds to Federal Effort to Redefine Gender -

Do you have clip notes?


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Cindy, thank you for sharing the WPATH bulletin. I really needed to see that.

QuoteAs I say, if anybody of the Dems come for our guns, I march with you arm in arm to the Rep side!

Why are Americans so attached to their guns?  As one looking in, I see them causing more problems than they solve.  My understanding of the 2nd amendment was the right to guns was for forming a militia, something that was needed in the early days of the U.S..  How many gun owners are in a militia?  And yes I know how that amendment got turned around by the gun lobby and how the NRA is a front for gun manufacturers.  Used to be the NRA was about gun and hunting safety.  Now it's about selling as many guns as possible, no matter the consequences.
.
BTW, I have nothing against guns and in fact used to own a rifle.  The problem seems to be more with the gun crazy attitude some people have.  My understanding is that most Americans don't own a gun, but those that do tend to own several, including assault rifles.  Why on earth would any law abiding citizen need one of those???

Incidentally, there was an article in the news recently, about how right wing extremists are joining the militia in Canada to get gun and military training.  Why would they be doing that?  Is the same thing happening in the U.S.?

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 08:34:08 PM
Why are Americans so attached to their guns?  As one looking in, I see them causing more problems than they solve.  My understanding of the 2nd amendment was the right to guns was for forming a militia, something that was needed in the early days of the U.S..  How many gun owners are in a militia?  And yes I know how that amendment got turned around by the gun lobby and how the NRA is a front for gun manufacturers.  Used to be the NRA was about gun and hunting safety.  Now it's about selling as many guns as possible, no matter the consequences.
.
BTW, I have nothing against guns and in fact used to own a rifle.  The problem seems to be more with the gun crazy attitude some people have.  My understanding is that most Americans don't own a gun, but those that do tend to own several, including assault rifles.  Why on earth would any law abiding citizen need one of those???

Incidentally, there was an article in the news recently, about how right wing extremists are joining the militia in Canada to get gun and military training.  Why would they be doing that?  Is the same thing happening in the U.S.?

The primary function is to defend our freedoms. Should somebody in political office refuse to leave office when the time comes or should they turn the military on the civilian population, firearms are to be used by the population to regain control of the government.

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 08:34:08 PM
Why are Americans so attached to their guns? 

I am not really an American!  I lived half of my life in Europe!
I still like my guns, not to kill people but as mechanical masterpieces, for sporting purposes and lastly for self defense.

Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 08:45:33 PM
The primary function is to defend our freedoms. Should somebody in political office refuse to leave office when the time comes or should they turn the military on the civilian population, firearms are to be used by the population to regain control of the government.

That dream is kind of a joke!
Here I sit with my two rifles, a Remington Shotgun and a 350 pistol to defend us against the government who comes with tanks, Apache helicopters, Drones and what ever!  This was a dream when this country was founded, but the minute armored vehicles were invented, the dream came to a screeching halt!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 23, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
That dream is kind of a joke!
Here I sit with my two rifles, a Remington Shotgun and a 350 pistol to defend us against the government who comes with tanks, Apache helicopters, Drones and what ever!  This was a dream when this country was founded, but the minute armored vehicles were invented, the dream came to a screeching halt!

Snipers are the most effective way to deal with a large force and sometimes it only takes one shell to solve the problem. Wining by force may not be possible however at the right time and place it may still be possible to win a conflict.

Some of the right wing posts here truly frighten me and make me despair for the future of the country...

If those that have had to go through changing sex don't see the issues and how unfair and unsafe things are becoming for those not in the mainstream, as well as those who don't have a lot of money, how the deck is getting even more stacked against those, then what hope is there for enough sanity from those in the mainstream?

In terms of T*s, if these trends continue unchecked, we may be heading back to the times when stealth was very important to survival... and not all of us can be stealth, nor do all want to be.

The 1950's again  for us and other minorities, may be not be too far down the road...

- karen

QuoteThe primary function is to defend our freedoms. Should somebody in political office refuse to leave office when the time comes or should they turn the military on the civilian population, firearms are to be used by the population to regain control of the government.

How likely is that to happen?  We're no longer living in the time of despot monarchs, at least not in the western world.

I was a washout at boys' sports growing up, but I do remember vividly one piece of advice from my Little League coach:

"Keep Your Eye On The Ball!"

That's what I think we need to do in this thread.  It's quite obvious that gender identity issues and interests cut across the entire range of religious, political, social, and ethnic stretches of humanity.  We are not all the same type of people.  We certainly don't all think alike.

But everybody here does (or should) share a common interest in securing our rights to gender expression free of oppression and discrimination.  The HHS working paper outlines a government intent to roll back decades of progress on trans rights.  This is an existential threat to us.  We must act together and defeat this initiative, or we will ultimately find ourselves banished from life, afraid of our own shadows, timidly cross-dressing in attics and closets, and daydreaming about the way things could have been.

Susan made the right decision in lifting the ban on political discussion.  But we need to use that openness WISELY.  As my old Little League coach said: "Keep your eye on the ball!"

The important issue we face here TOGETHER as trans folks is this new government anti-trans initiative.  That's where our focus should be in this forum.

As we can all see from the preceding pages, folks here disagree vociferously about a host of issues.
About firearms and taxes.  About capitalism and socialism.  About immigration and deportation.  About religion and atheism  About right and left.  About healthcare.  About drugs.  About education.  About the police.  If we follow and debate all of those disagreements, we achieve nothing.  We simply tear ourselves to pieces and gain nothing.

News flash, folks!  We will NOT solve those issues here!

I respectfully suggest that we retire those issues from discussion here, as important as they all may be.

Keep Your Eye On The Ball!

Let's use this political opening Susan has authorized to address the political interest we have IN COMMON: the initiative developing in HHS to legally define issues about sex and gender in a way that poses a grave danger to our lives and well-being as trans people.

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 09:18:30 PM
How likely is that to happen?  We're no longer living in the time of despot monarchs, at least not in the western world.

So you think. Several presidents considered extending their time in office beyond the two term limit. Fortunately they were wise enough not to attempt it. All it takes is one and who can tell what that would happen. The price of freedom is vigilance. It could be a Republican or a Democrat but we must take action if it happens regardless of the party.

Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 08:45:33 PM
The primary function is to defend our freedoms. Should somebody in political office refuse to leave office when the time comes or should they turn the military on the civilian population, firearms are to be used by the population to regain control of the government.

The US military is so strong that it would not end well for even well armed civilians. A sizable chunk of the military would have to fight the other side.

QuoteSnipers are the most effective way to deal with a large force and sometimes it only takes one shell to solve the problem. Wining by force may not be possible however at the right time and place it may still be possible to win a conflict.

Like Nevada last year?  Or Sandyhook?  Or ...?

When I here about guns in the news, it's usually about criminal acts, including mass murder.

In Canada, we have a militia, which is part time soldiers working with the regular army.  Any "militia" not attached the the regular army, is more likely to be a liability than an asset.  They certainly wouldn't stand much of a chance against a foreign power.  I also don't recall reading much about a U.S. militia being much use after the Revolutionary War.  Even in the war of 1812, the militia was recognized as being not particularly effective.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 23, 2018, 09:29:25 PM
The US military is so strong that it would not end well for even well armed civilians. A sizable chunk of the military would have to fight the other side.

We have forgot that freedom is costly. If your unwilling to give your life for it, you probably don't deserve it. Many of the founding father lost their fortune and risk their live in order to provide us the freedom we have today. We should do no less.

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 09:31:33 PM
Like Nevada last year?  Or Sandyhook?  Or ...?

When I here about guns in the news, it's usually about criminal acts, including mass murder.

In Canada, we have a militia, which is part time soldiers working with the regular army.  Any "militia" not attached the the regular army, is more likely to be a liability than an asset.  They certainly wouldn't stand much of a chance against a foreign power.  I also don't recall reading much about a U.S. militia being much use after the Revolutionary War.  Even in the war of 1812, the militia was recognized as being not particularly effective.

Many  gun owners are former military and could be quite effective even with sporting weapons. Also consider what history would be like had one of the attempts on Hitler's life been effective.

QuoteSo you think. Several presidents considered extending their time in office beyond the two term limit. Fortunately they were wise enough not to attempt it.

There have also been several attempts, some successful, on presidents who were simply doing their job.  In my lifetime, Kennedy was assassinated and Reagan was shot.  Where were those with guns to protect them?

Again, I am not against guns, but what I see as a gun loving culture that I know does not represent the majority of Americans.  When the NRA takes legal action against Seattle for trying to enact a gun safety, not ownership, law, it's obvious where the problems is.  Why should the NRA have a problem with gun safety, when that was the reason they were formed?  Why shouldn't gun owners be required to go through gun safety training?  I did, even though it wasn't required.  Maybe then there wouldn't be so many kids killing someone.

BTW April, re keeping the eye on the ball, this is indirectly related in that many who try to take away rights tend to be the most vocal about gun ownership, as indicated in that article I mentioned about the Canadian militia and right wing extremists.

QuoteMany  gun owners are former military and could be quite effective even with sporting weapons. Also consider what history would be like had one of the attempts on Hitler's life been effective.

How effective would they be against a modern army equipped with modern technology.  A former soldier, with a sporting rifle wouldn't have much of a chance.  Back when Hitler was taking over, the British Lee-Enfield rifle was used in many parts of the world. It dates from 1895 and is now considered a good hunting rifle, but wouldn't be much of a match for modern weapons.  These days an effective army needs not only modern weapons, but all the support, such as communications, transport and more that stand alone "soldiers" wouldn't have.  The days of an individual soldier with his trusty hunting rifle are long gone.

Quote from: itsApril on October 23, 2018, 09:19:23 PM
I was a washout at boys' sports growing up, but I do remember vividly one piece of advice from my Little League coach:

"Keep Your Eye On The Ball!"

That's what I think we need to do in this thread.  It's quite obvious that gender identity issues and interests cut across the entire range of religious, political, social, and ethnic stretches of humanity.  We are not all the same type of people.  We certainly don't all think alike.

But everybody here does (or should) share a common interest in securing our rights to gender expression free of oppression and discrimination.  The HHS working paper outlines a government intent to roll back decades of progress on trans rights.  This is an existential threat to us.  We must act together and defeat this initiative, or we will ultimately find ourselves banished from life, afraid of our own shadows, timidly cross-dressing in attics and closets, and daydreaming about the way things could have been.

Susan made the right decision in lifting the ban on political discussion.  But we need to use that openness WISELY.  As my old Little League coach said: "Keep your eye on the ball!"

The important issue we face here TOGETHER as trans folks is this new government anti-trans initiative.  That's where our focus should be in this forum.

As we can all see from the preceding pages, folks here disagree vociferously about a host of issues.
About firearms and taxes.  About capitalism and socialism.  About immigration and deportation.  About religion and atheism  About right and left.  About healthcare.  About drugs.  About education.  About the police.  If we follow and debate all of those disagreements, we achieve nothing.  We simply tear ourselves to pieces and gain nothing.

News flash, folks!  We will NOT solve those issues here!

I respectfully suggest that we retire those issues from discussion here, as important as they all may be.

Keep Your Eye On The Ball!

Let's use this political opening Susan has authorized to address the political interest we have IN COMMON: the initiative developing in HHS to legally define issues about sex and gender in a way that poses a grave danger to our lives and well-being as trans people.

Thank you, as I've made a few posts asking for the same thing.

Unfortunately, I was private messaged earlier today lamenting that now that the genie is out of the bottle, it won't be recaptured.

Moderators, maybe it's time to lock down this thread?  I have different opinions on capitalism, immigration, privacy, etc.  However, as a woman, I'm threatened by the HHS proposal.  We've lost focus. 

In my career we have a saying:  'We can't boil the ocean!'  But if the estimate is accurate that we are 1.4 million voices strong, that is enough to garner some attention about the falsity of this proposal.  If we speak with a unified voice.

Has anybody got any experience in creating a change.org petition?

Kate


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Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 09:32:42 PM
We have forgot that freedom is costly. If your unwilling to give your life for it, you probably don't deserve it. Many of the founding father lost their fortune and risk their live in order to provide us the freedom we have today. We should do no less.

I agree. I believe that it is silly to through away someones life or time. Working together with allies makes things much easier.

That is why all the non-binary population needs to stick together using common values and not differences. One person is not strong enough to do much of anything.

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 09:49:43 PM
How effective would they be against a modern army equipped with modern technology.  A former soldier, with a sporting rifle wouldn't have much of a chance.  Back when Hitler was taking over, the British Lee-Enfield rifle was used in many parts of the world. It dates from 1895 and is now considered a good hunting rifle, but wouldn't be much of a match for modern weapons.  These days an effective army needs not only modern weapons, but all the support, such as communications, transport and more that stand alone "soldiers" wouldn't have.  The days of an individual soldier with his trusty hunting rifle are long gone.

I agree. It is all good until a drone that you can't see fires a shot. What is the term, "Dead before you know it."

Quote from: AnneK on October 23, 2018, 09:49:43 PM
How effective would they be against a modern army equipped with modern technology.  A former soldier, with a sporting rifle wouldn't have much of a chance.  Back when Hitler was taking over, the British Lee-Enfield rifle was used in many parts of the world. It dates from 1895 and is now considered a good hunting rifle, but wouldn't be much of a match for modern weapons.  These days an effective army needs not only modern weapons, but all the support, such as communications, transport and more that stand alone "soldiers" wouldn't have.  The days of an individual soldier with his trusty hunting rifle are long gone.

You ever had a Carcano? I have, worst gun I ever owned, yet it was good enough to kill a president. And I beg to differ on your "modern weapon" comment, you only need to look at the middle east, we still havn't defeated the ISIS and their using ww2 left overs look at the pictures, lots of German ww2 left overs and about any old thing they could get from Russia, even still using Enfields. Now consider this there are at least two hundred million gun owners, if something goes bad, that's the largest army in the world. You're also assuming the military would blindly follow orders. I'm guessing you've never heard of Oath Keepers. One person with a .22 rifle could take out power to a entire city if they know what their doing. And don't just assume tyranny can never happen in the United States, look up the Battle of Athens. I mean the thing I just don't understand though is you dem's have spent the last few years calling Trump Hitler, and you've been screaming for Hitler to take your guns away...... Back during the election my son came home telling me his teacher told him Pence wanted to stick him in a concentration camp (he's gay). I thought that was the most absurd thing I ever heard, now I'm not so sure it's off the table. So I mostly have gun's because I like to plink at old pop can's and target shoot with the occasional squirrel hunt, but most importantly to defend myself against that one person that "will kill those freaks if I ever catch them in the bathroom with my daughter" But I will gladly die fighting tyranny, we have a right to exist and I will defend it with my last breath.

I have to admit that I really do not like the turn the thread has taken. If transgendered people began to lash out irresponsibly the damage caused would be horrifying and possibly last for generations. Most importantly it would end horribly.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 23, 2018, 11:13:22 PM
I have to admit that I really do not like the turn the thread has taken. If transgendered people began to lash out irresponsibly the damage caused would be horrifying and possibly last for generations. Most importantly it would end horribly.

Gandhi is the preferred approach. This means no rioting but instead presenting our argument in a rational manner. Violence is a last resort that will hopefully never be used. It was though that the United States would need to forcefully replace the government within a generation after the constitution was approved. Fortunately we have been able to resolve our differences nearing 250 years without overthrowing the government. Hopefully we can continue to do so.

Quote from: Dena on October 23, 2018, 11:23:25 PM
Gandhi is the preferred approach. This means no rioting but instead presenting our argument in a rational manner. Violence is a last resort that will hopefully never be used. It was though that the United States would need to forcefully replace the government within a generation after the constitution was approved. Fortunately we have been able to resolve our differences nearing 250 years without overthrowing the government. Hopefully we can continue to do so.

This.

And already signed and shared.

Quote from: jkredman on October 23, 2018, 10:28:22 PM
OK I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT

https://www.change.org/p/united-states-department-of-health-and-human-services-protect-the-human-rights-of-the-transgendered?recruiter=907516985&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition (https://www.change.org/p/united-states-department-of-health-and-human-services-protect-the-human-rights-of-the-transgendered?recruiter=907516985&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition)


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@jkredman

Thx and Signed!

Sonja.

Quote from: jkredman on October 23, 2018, 10:28:22 PM
OK I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT

https://www.change.org/p/united-states-department-of-health-and-human-services-protect-the-human-rights-of-the-transgendered?recruiter=907516985&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition (https://www.change.org/p/united-states-department-of-health-and-human-services-protect-the-human-rights-of-the-transgendered?recruiter=907516985&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition)BY CHANGE.ORG


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signed

This thread is why we are where we are and is why we all will be damned if we don't unite.


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Quote from: PhoenixGurl2016 on October 24, 2018, 01:02:20 AM
This thread is why we are where we are and is why we all will be damned if we don't unite.


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So what's the answer? All I've seen is vote blue. The dems only care for us slightly more then the republicans, Under Obama they had several years they could have acted on our behalf, signed anti hate bills into law, made a constitutional amendment to protect everyone and they didn't. They just pander to us and throw us a tiny bone every once in awhile to get our vote. We do need to unite but the answer is not one party or the other. I'm gonna vote blue in this election for the first time ever but I still don't think it's the answer.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 24, 2018, 01:08:51 AM
So what's the answer? All I've seen is vote blue. The dems only care for us slightly more then the republicans, Under Obama they had several years they could have acted on our behalf, signed anti hate bills into law, made a constitutional amendment to protect everyone and they didn't. They just pander to us and throw us a tiny bone every once in awhile to get our vote. We do need to unite but the answer is not one party or the other. I'm gonna vote blue in this election for the first time ever but I still don't think it's the answer.

I was discussing something like this at a shoot. Another shooter I knew well said you should pick one issue that's most important to you and vote for the person most likely to make that possible. Because he was a shooter, he voted for the person most likely to support the second amendment. Something sounded a bit off with his reasoning so I thought about it for a while. I decided that the most important issue was a person who would completely back the constitution as without it you have no freedom.

You are free to decide that I don't have it right either and decide some other issue is more important. Just remember Benjamin Franklin "They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Quote from: Cindy on October 23, 2018, 05:26:33 PM
A response by WPATH and USPATH was released overnight you can read it here

https://www.wpath.org/

WPATH Board Responds to Federal Effort to Redefine Gender -

Cindy, I'm struggling to find this content? X

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@Megan

its further down on the right.

https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Newsroom/Global%20Impact/WPATH%20Board%20Response%20to%20Redefine%20Gender%2010.23.18.pdf

Sonja.

Quote from: Sonja on October 24, 2018, 02:28:59 AM
@Megan

its further down on the right.

https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Newsroom/Global%20Impact/WPATH%20Board%20Response%20to%20Redefine%20Gender%2010.23.18.pdf

Sonja.

Tnx [emoji4]. X

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Quote from: Dena on October 24, 2018, 01:40:56 AM
I was discussing something like this at a shoot. Another shooter I knew well said you should pick one issue that's most important to you and vote for the person most likely to make that possible. Because he was a shooter, he voted for the person most likely to support the second amendment. Something sounded a bit off with his reasoning so I thought about it for a while. I decided that the most important issue was a person who would completely back the constitution as without it you have no freedom.

You are free to decide that I don't have it right either and decide some other issue is more important. Just remember Benjamin Franklin "They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I voted for Bush jr. every other election I wrote in Ron or Rand Paul, I know I wasted my vote but at least I knew I could walk away having voted for a person that understands liberty. I generally back a pro 2nd candidate as well because if they take that right there is nothing stopping them from taking the rest.

Here is the full statement by WPATH for information only, apologies if its already been posted:

"On October 21, 2018, the New York Times published "'Transgender' Could Be Defined Out of Existence Under Trump Administration," in which journalists Erica L. Green, Katie Benner, and Robert Pear wrote that the "administration is considering narrowly defining gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by genitalia at birth, the most drastic move yet in a governmentwide effort to roll back recognition and protections of transgender people under federal civil rights law. The press releases below, from WPATH and our US regional chapter, USPATH, present this Association's immediate response. Further efforts will include preparing the scientific arguments to be delivered during the 60-day comment period once the new regulations are proposed in the Federal Register.

For Immediate Release

East Dundee, IL: October 23, 2018 WPATH Board Responds to Federal Effort to Redefine Gender The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Board of Directors expresses its strongest disagreement with the intention of the Trump administration to define human gender as the sex recorded at birth based on visible genital formation and to restrict changes, all via regulation. It has been known for decades that sex and gender cannot be determined solely by birth anatomy or chromosomes. More recently, the durable biological underpinnings for gender identity have become better understood within the mainstream medical and scientific communities. Further, the targeting of individuals or groups to deny medically-indicated care represents a violation of the professional oaths taken by us in the medical provider community. The Trump administration's past efforts to erase transgender people from American society indicate that its officials believe that XX or XY chromosomal testing to be definitive and definitional. However, this testing is insufficient to measure the known factors that affect the actual sex or gender of a sentient human being.  To acknowledge the diversity of sex and/or gender present in all human beings gives life and potential to those millions of people whose characteristics are not simply defined by sex chromosomes. Over the past 30 years, litigation throughout all levels of the US judicial system has proven time and again that human beings who are not reducible to chromosomes do deserve full equality, including access to employment, housing, public accommodations, education, and health care, along with all rights conferred by the US Constitution. 
WPATH member physicians and researchers stand ready to testify before Congress to protect and defend the health and well-being of all transgender and gendernonconforming people."

https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/Newsroom/Global%20Impact/WPATH%20Board%20Response%20to%20Redefine%20Gender%2010.23.18.pdf

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html

Quote from: Danni98 on October 24, 2018, 01:08:51 AM
Under Obama they had several years they could have acted on our behalf, signed anti hate bills into law, made a constitutional amendment to protect everyone and they didn't.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree on that. As a leader, Barack moved the bar considerably in pushing understanding. I worked for the man and the reason was he went to the August 2007 logo/hrc forum where all candidates were invited to speak to LGBT issues so we would know where they stood (predictably no Republican candidates accepted, that ought to tell you alone how little support we get there).

Anyway, Obama spoke the word "transgender". That was all he needed to do. Just four years before that the Advocate was still running anti-trans opinion pieces.

I was astounded, we couldn't even get support from the larger queer community and here was a credible candidate for national office with the intelligence and bravery to call us out not as the T hanging off the relatively new acronym LGBT. I spent 10 days in Ohio using my vacation to work 14 hours a day to help put him over the top.

As to what he accomplished, 2 years was given to establishing universal health care. He managed to pass it even after Massachusetts Dems ran a lackluster party stalwart for the Senate seat vacated by the death of Ted Kennedy. Had the Dems not screwed that up, a single payer system was on the table. Because he then had a republican Senate to deal with, the ACA was passed with a huge give-away to the insurance industry.

Obama made huge inroads into supporting our community, not the least of which has been Medicaid funded transition for some of our most vulnerable members.

Of course the Dems ran another party stalwart in 2016 with the result we're facing today. Bernie probably would have beaten Trump.

This too will pass. My millennial students have gone from politically lackluster  to angry and engaged. In time they will be heard.

QuoteSo what's the answer? All I've seen is vote blue. The dems only care for us slightly more then the republicans, Under Obama they had several years they could have acted on our behalf, signed anti hate bills into law, made a constitutional amendment to protect everyone and they didn't.

As I recall, Obama did a fair bit, despite Repubs trying to block him on so many issues.  Much of Trump's agenda seems to be about undoing what Obama accomplished.  We have a similar situation in Ontario, where the new Premier is focused on undoing what the previous one did.  Among other things, cutting minimum wage, while promising to put more money into the pockets of Ontario residents, promising no cuts, while cutting, etc.

Quote from: SadieBlake on October 24, 2018, 05:38:42 AM

This too will pass. My millennial students have gone from politically lackluster  to angry and engaged. In time they will be heard.

I do very much hope so!  I am now a pretty old political activist for the liberal rights of our society, and I was always disappointed how little politically involved the generation of my son was.  An entire generation just focused on how much and how fast they could buy the currently in gadget, etc.  But that was the generation Y, the early starters of the millennial people.  But they would not be students anymore, now they have to pay their bills for their fancy trucks and Harley', etc.  They would have no time to be political active or even interested. 
My wife (an educator) and I were both pretty active.  Here us older folks took to the streets for different reasons for the future of the kids, while the kids stayed home to play Nintendo!

I hope you are right with your assessment of the younger millennials!

A quick question if anyone would be kind enough to answer it. (Is it me or is there a fatal flaw in the definition that Trump is trying to push through?) If according to the definition that they are determining sex by either the genitals or by DNA, how then are they going to deal with those who are 46XX/46XY etc with ambiguous genitals? Can any of them explain exactly how they are going to use science to determine WHICH gender they are in those cases?

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 24, 2018, 08:48:25 AM
A quick question if anyone would be kind enough to answer it. (Is it me or is there a fatal flaw in the definition that Trump is trying to push through?) If according to the definition that they are determining sex by either the genitals or by DNA, how then are they going to deal with those who are 46XX/46XY etc with ambiguous genitals? Can any of them explain exactly how they are going to use science to determine WHICH gender they are in those cases?

This was simple for my generation at least (I might be one of those persons).  Some quick cuts, a little bit of sutures and the gender was precisely defined.  It was decided that I will be a male!  Periode!  I have no idea who made the decission or why it was made.  I just have to live with the consequences!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 24, 2018, 09:01:57 AM
This was simple for my generation at least (I might be one of those persons).  Some quick cuts, a little bit of sutures and the gender was precisely defined.  It was decided that I will be a male!  Periode!  I have no idea who made the decission or why it was made.  I just have to live with the consequences!

And how many people did they screw up because of it? That was also usually not done by scientific facts but by subjective interpretation of what they thought was best at that time.

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 24, 2018, 09:24:51 AM
And how many people did they screw up because of it? That was also usually not done by scientific facts but by subjective interpretation of what they thought was best at that time.

You bet, when I was born it was very important to have as many men as possible.  Soldiers were needed, and women could not become soldiers at that time.  I think that this was the main reason that I became a male baby!
I don't know if my life was screwed up, because I grew up in a very loving environment, and was always surrounded by people who cared for me.  Would I have had a better life as a girl?  I don't know!  My sister had an as good life, but was not as successful in it as I was (professional and with personal relations).

It is now, way later in live that i am almost hurting to get out of that partially male looking body of which I feel I was never supposed to be in!  It could be that I am now free of any society pressure and can be what I want to be?
In some other contributions I wrote that my body is growing breasts, and I am not on hormones.  Could that be that finally my body and my brain are on the same song sheet?

Again, I have no idea how many lives were screwed up!  I might be one of the very few lucky ones who had not that many problems because of the decisions made when I was a new born?

Quote from: SadieBlake on October 24, 2018, 05:38:42 AM
I'm sorry, I have to disagree on that. As a leader, Barack moved the bar considerably in pushing understanding. I worked for the man and the reason was he went to the August 2007 logo/hrc forum where all candidates were invited to speak to LGBT issues so we would know where they stood (predictably no Republican candidates accepted, that ought to tell you alone how little support we get there).

Anyway, Obama spoke the word "transgender". That was all he needed to do. Just four years before that the Advocate was still running anti-trans opinion pieces.

I was astounded, we couldn't even get support from the larger queer community and here was a credible candidate for national office with the intelligence and bravery to call us out not as the T hanging off the relatively new acronym LGBT. I spent 10 days in Ohio using my vacation to work 14 hours a day to help put him over the top.

As to what he accomplished, 2 years was given to establishing universal health care. He managed to pass it even after Massachusetts Dems ran a lackluster party stalwart for the Senate seat vacated by the death of Ted Kennedy. Had the Dems not screwed that up, a single payer system was on the table. Because he then had a republican Senate to deal with, the ACA was passed with a huge give-away to the insurance industry.

Obama made huge inroads into supporting our community, not the least of which has been Medicaid funded transition for some of our most vulnerable members.

Of course the Dems ran another party stalwart in 2016 with the result we're facing today. Bernie probably would have beaten Trump.

This too will pass. My millennial students have gone from politically lackluster  to angry and engaged. In time they will be heard.

I think you're giving him too much credit. Lot's in the lgb portion still hate us, it's the kids driving our acceptance. The medicaid stuff, lol congrats, I have it as I'm a care giver and can't get a regular job. And I still have to pay for all my trans stuff, dr's visits and Hrt out of pocket. The rest, sorry not everyone likes socialism.

QuoteAnd I still have to pay for all my trans stuff, dr's visits and Hrt out of pocket. The rest, sorry not everyone likes socialism.

Well, here in Ontario, all those things are or may be covered under our health care, at no cost to the individual.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 24, 2018, 12:34:15 PM
I think you're giving him too much credit. Lot's in the lgb portion still hate us, it's the kids driving our acceptance. The medicaid stuff, lol congrats, I have it as I'm a care giver and can't get a regular job. And I still have to pay for all my trans stuff, dr's visits and Hrt out of pocket. The rest, sorry not everyone likes socialism.

Oi, sure socialism = evil. Never mind that decidedly socialist places, say western Europe enjoy an equal, arguably better standard of living as the US. We spend more on healthcare than any other nation yet are 37th in the world in healthcare outcomes. Now maybe try to tell me capitalism is always more efficient [/sarcasm].

"Lots in the lgb still hate us" .. really? would you like to back that up with some data. I spend a lot of time every week in queer spaces and have done so on both coasts. 20 years ago I was generally unwelcome in queer / women's spaces while today I am a facilitator in a lesbian discussion group held in the oldest continuously running feminist center in the US.

Is every queer person supportive of trans people? obviously not. How did we get from where we were then to where we are today? As I said to the director of the center I mentioned above "hearts and minds, one at a time".

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 24, 2018, 08:48:25 AM
A quick question if anyone would be kind enough to answer it. (Is it me or is there a fatal flaw in the definition that Trump is trying to push through?) If according to the definition that they are determining sex by either the genitals or by DNA, how then are they going to deal with those who are 46XX/46XY etc with ambiguous genitals? Can any of them explain exactly how they are going to use science to determine WHICH gender they are in those cases?

Nope!  It's not a "fatal flaw," in the sense of being a troubling detail in an otherwise reasoned general theory.  What HHS is working on is heartless, anti-science bunk from beginning to end, from top to bottom.

They intend to dispose of gender issues by simply collapsing gender and sex into the most rigid possible binary: M or F.  The distinction is chromosomal: XY or XX.

Once XY or XX is determined, your gender will be expected to just fall into line behind it.  If you are XX, you will be a woman, like it or not.  If you are XY, you will be a man, like it or not.

Folks with some variant chromosomal makeup don't even fit into their picture.  The Republican "flat-earth science" doesn't even pick up on that.  If trans folks with standard XX or XY chromosomes will just be crammed into the "corresponding" gender, this abominable HHS theory has no plan at all for chromosome-variant people.  They will just be exiled to a biological twilight zone, lacking definition entirely.

The practical result for intersexed people would probably end up with the future looking pretty much like the past.  If a baby is born with ambiguous genitals, the docs just take a look at the new arrival's privates and make a ballpark estimate.  "Looks a little more female than male to me.  What do you think, Mike?"  Cut.  Snip.  Stitch.  A girl is born.  Follow with twenty years of rigid socialization, reinforced, if necessary, with administration of hormonal supplementation.

Under this HHS approach the future is grim for trans folks generally.  It may be grimmest of all for those who are intersexed.

This is disgusting.  And dangerous.  GET THESE REPUBLICAN LOONS OUT OF POWER!

Quote from: itsApril on October 24, 2018, 01:31:40 PMFolks with some variant chromosomal makeup don't even fit into their picture.  The Republican "flat-earth science" doesn't even pick up on that.  If trans folks with standard XX or XY chromosomes will just be crammed into the "corresponding" gender, this abominable HHS theory has no plan at all for chromosome-variant people.  They will just be exiled to a biological twilight zone, lacking definition entirely.

XXY, XYY, or any other chromosomal combination with the presence of at least one Y chromosome would be considered "male" while X, XXX, etc. would be considered "female" (since there would be no Y chromosome).

Quote from: SadieBlake on October 24, 2018, 01:30:44 PM
Oi, sure socialism = evil. Never mind that decidedly socialist places, say western Europe enjoy an equal, arguably better standard of living as the US. We spend more on healthcare than any other nation yet are 37th in the world in healthcare outcomes. Now maybe try to tell me capitalism is always more efficient [/sarcasm].

"Lots in the lgb still hate us" .. really? would you like to back that up with some data. I spend a lot of time every week in queer spaces and have done so on both coasts. 20 years ago I was generally unwelcome in queer / women's spaces while today I am a facilitator in a lesbian discussion group held in the oldest continuously running feminist center in the US.

Is every queer person supportive of trans people? obviously not. How did we get from where we were then to where we are today? As I said to the director of the center I mentioned above "hearts and minds, one at a time".

Yep and how much of Europe was rebuilt on good ole American capitalism? ohhhh almost the whole continent, we learned our lesson after ww1 and didn't want Hitler #2. As for the healthcare, maybe if we didn't have so many frivolous lawsuits and government regulation we might be thriving more.

The second part sure, now keep in mind I didn't say all, in fact my son's gay and he's trying his hardest to spread that petition to all his friends. My sons mother and her girlfriend for starters. My son was dating a ftm, every time his back was turn they were calling him a he/she and spewing hate. Like wise for the two or three transgendered people that live in their neighborhood. Then you got people like Milo what ever his last name is and his followers, plenty of lesbian TERF's do I need to keep going?

Quote from: HappyMoni on October 21, 2018, 10:43:10 AM
The country is not a hell hole. The people in charge of it right now have without doubt declared us the enemy. They come for us, they come for immigrants, they come for LGB's, poor people, black/brown people! At what point do people stop pretending these are normal American values, and realize this is sick, wrong, evil even? Vote, get your friends to get off their butts and vote.

amen

America isn't perfect and no other country is. With that said, I believe that the government needs to stay out of people's personal lives. Specifically the bedroom.

I want to see why ->-bleeped-<- is not accepted. I want them to scientifically support there position without religion. Why exclude religion? Separation of church and state. I hate to say it, but religion is the problem until proven otherwise.

I really do not want to wait until the Millennial generation takes control of the country. That could take a decade or two. Even longer for the SCOTUS.

Quote from: itsApril on October 24, 2018, 01:31:40 PM


.  "Looks a little more female than male to me.  What do you think, Mike?"  Cut.  Snip.  Stitch.  A girl is born.  Follow with twenty years of rigid socialization, reinforced, if necessary, with administration of hormonal supplementation.

Under this HHS approach the future is grim for trans folks generally.  It may be grimmest of all for those who are intersexed.

This is disgusting.  And dangerous.  GET THESE REPUBLICAN LOONS OUT OF POWER!

I am one of those, they just did a little more stich on me, and a boy was born!  Nobody cared that I never did fit in, always at the outside of the entire male gender.  But I learned to ply my role well, what else could I do, if I wanted to survive?

Now I am at the point that I want my real gender back.  I want to live at least for a few years in a body that always was supposed to be the way it will be shortly (I hope)!  Am glad that this body is already working on it, if it just would find a way to change my genitals everything would be great!

QuoteI hate to say it, but religion is the problem until proven otherwise.

+1

Specifically, Pence and pandering to the Evangelicals.

Quote from: AnneK on October 24, 2018, 04:37:14 PM
+1

Specifically, Pence and pandering to the Evangelicals.

He said of himself that he is a practicing Calvinist.  If you don't know what that means, read up on Calvinism and your toe nails will curl!

I like this article

https://www.thriveglobal.com/stories/47935-trump-cannot-erase-me-and-my-transgender-community

Quote from: Dietlind on October 23, 2018, 05:01:56 PM

If my Dems ever start to put their fingers on my guns, they are not my Dems anymore!

However, there have never been any Dems who really wanted to go for the guns.  This was only fear mongering from the NRA and some extreme right wing groups. 
I was in the inside of the Dems in Minnesota, one of the really blue states, but also one of the states with a high amount of gun ownership per capita.  Half of the Dem leadership there could have compete with the National Guard concerning being armed. 
Nobody ever mentioned to take anybody's guns away.  The only guns that are not liked (by most Americans) are military style assault guns.

As I say, if anybody of the Dems come for our guns, I march with you arm in arm to the Rep side!

I'm from NY and there are plenty dems that want a gunless society, except for them and maybe the police.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Guns or knives it does not matter. If someone is going to do bad things they will. Granted the link is for the UK not America, but as a whole people are people.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-latest-knife-crime/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-latest-knife-crime/)

All that I am saying is that if it isn't gun violence then it will be knife violence. So, I do not see the point of banning guns.

It is almost impossible to ban guns in the US.  There are so many out there, who will ever be able to get!
Yes, there are some dems that want to outlaw guns, but there are republicans that want to outlaw porn, and there are some libertarians that want to outlaw public education, and there are some greens who want to outlaw cars, etc.  There are always some who want to outlaw something.  Obama was supposed to come and get our guns.  Did he come?  At least he was not at my door to get mine.  The only winners were the arms industry.  I could not get amo for my pistol for months!  The amo horters were there before I could go to buy some!

Now some reps are planning to outlaw porn.  The US has by far the largest porn industry in the world, and some major money is made with it.  Nobody will get a chance to outlaw that big business!

We do not have to talk about the outlaw plans of the libertarians or the greens, because they will never get the chance to start with their outlawing!

However the chance that we may become nothing is a real one, because they are working on that right now!   That should be our concern, not guns or something that will never happen!

Whats wrong with vouchers for private schools? have you seen the sad state of public education. As for guns that's because he blew it working on the ACA. and the rest of the time he wouldn't have been able to get his way. You can see many pictures of people protesting with signs that say "yes we want to take your guns". And that makes me very Leary of voting blue. I still haven't forgot Bill Clinton and the awb of 90.

My concern with this planned rule is a real one!  All my life I had to try to get along as a nothing.  I was not a real man or a real woman.  I was something in between, with other words, I was nothing who tried to act like a man to survive!

Now I have finally the chance to get into my real gender, but to do that, I need health insurance.  The only health insurance for old nothings like me can afford, is Medicare.  Medicare is a federal program, and if they make a rule that federal programs can only pay for cis gender stuff, I will not be able to get the services and medications I need, and I will be dammed to remain a nothing for the rest of my live.

Most of you at last had/have a body that looks pretty much like a body for your assigned gender should look like, and you were not made fun of.  I never had that luck, because my body always looked girlish, but not girlish enough, to be accepted by the girls as one of them!
I hated to g swimming in the summer, because I had to show my softy body.  guys were wearing speedos when i was younger, and were sporting their ware, I had not much to sport down there.

Anyway, now that I have the chance to get my boy back, they are trying to make laws to prevent me from doing this!
and I am more than only Pi**** at that!

Quote from: Danni98 on October 24, 2018, 06:30:51 PM
Whats wrong with vouchers for private schools? have you seen the sad state of public education. As for guns that's because he blew it working on the ACA. and the rest of the time he wouldn't have been able to get his way. You can see many pictures of people protesting with signs that say "yes we want to take your guns". And that makes me very Leary of voting blue. I still haven't forgot Bill Clinton and the awb of 90.

Don't get me started on this!  The vouchers were exactly the reason that public education is in a sad state!
My wife was a professor at one of the larger Schools of Education in this country, and she was actually part of the analyzing team established by Pres Bush.  The problem was that the results the team recommended, were never put into action because of the lobbying efforts from some private school companies (De Voss was one of them).

The typical thing, we create a problem and than make the public belief that those, who created the problem in the first place, will come for the salvation!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 24, 2018, 06:18:03 PM

However the chance that we may become nothing is a real one, because they are working on that right now!   That should be our concern, not guns or something that will never happen!

@Dietlind

My thoughts as well, this latest move by Trump is in the works, sitting idly by and smiling is not what any Transgender American should be doing right now IMO. It doesn't matter what political affiliation you vote for there must be something 'you' can do to help make sure this move loses momentum and comes to nothing.

Thank my lucky stars I live in a country that has already had its first transgender member of parliament and where laws prohibit anyone from slandering a transgender person in public or at work.

Sonja.

Dietlind you're not gonna get a thumbs up from me. My friends neice's history teacher didn't know what the Bismarck was, and my own kids teacher taught them Hawaii was in the North Atlantic.

Quote from: Dietlind on October 24, 2018, 06:38:48 PM
Don't get me started on this!  The vouchers were exactly the reason that public education is in a sad state!
My wife was a professor at one of the larger Schools of Education in this country, and she was actually part of the analyzing team established by Pres Bush.  The problem was that the results the team recommended, were never put into action because of the lobbying efforts from some private school companies (De Voss was one of them).

The typical thing, we create a problem and than make the public belief that those, who created the problem in the first place, will come for the salvation!

I sent my children to private schools and have no regrets.

Fellow list mates: May I once again urge upon you that the issue before us here is NOT firearms.  It is NOT school vouchers.  It is NOT socialism or capitalism.

The issue before us is the position developing in the US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to redefine sex and gender in such a way as to negate and stigmatize us as a group.

There are many downstream ramifications of this approach.  One of the most immediate and damaging is this: HHS writes the regulations covering health insurance.  There is every likelihood that HHS will move forward to modify the healthcare regulations to eliminate the requirement that health insurance must cover services critical to our well-being as trans folks, such as: gender-related HRT, surgery, and counseling.

If insurers no longer HAVE to cover these services, many insurers will no longer cover them.  This WAS their general approach ten years ago.  If we don't stop this, it MAY BE their general approach five years hence.

Please stop and reflect upon what this will mean in your life and the lives of others.  Then act accordingly.

In the meantime, let's give it a rest on the endless gun debate.  Nobody here is making any headway trying to convince people about guns one way or another.

KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL!

Then get more people signing that petition. There's been at least 11 pages worth of people in here and only 20 something signatures, and a 1/4th to a third of them are people my kids sent it to. I'm also disappointed I haven't seen much on youtube, only Blair White and she seemed to be kinda kissing trumps.... and Stef Sanjati, which made the most sensible argument.

I don't know what you all pay for your prescriptions, but gel would cost more than my monthly rent if I had to pay out of pocket. That's horrifying.

All I can do now is come out to everyone and be visible. I'm coming out at work tomorrow. I deal with the general public so maybe it will make the lightbulb will go off in a few of my client's heads and influence a handful of votes. In light of this situation, I deeply regret not coming out sooner because I see my clients on a monthly basis and there are some I won't see before the upcoming vote.

I had absolutely zero intentions of coming out, by the way, prior to this stupid announcement.

And I'm changing all of my markers ASAP. I was going to do it in the new year, but I don't have that luxury. If they're going to erase everyone, I want to make sure I am personally erased. I want to make sure someone has to take the extra time out of their day to erase one more name, see one more person as transgender in the system.

Quote from: Danni98 on October 24, 2018, 06:54:23 PM
Dietlind you're not gonna get a thumbs up from me. My friends neice's history teacher didn't know what the Bismarck was, and my own kids teacher taught them Hawaii was in the North Atlantic.

It is up to your state, what qualifications they require a teacher to have.  I was amazed to hear that Texas requires subs to have a high school diploma only!  That means, a sub is nothing but a baby sitter there!
A sub in Wisconsin or Minnesota has to have a  minimum of a bachelors degree in a general subject that is close to the area one is supposed to sub in.  That means, a sub for physics has to have an engineering degree or something like this!   subs like this can continue to teach for the case the teacher prepares a sub plan, that is also required there!

Probably time to change the state you live in!

Na were good, I properly re educated them. My daughters teacher hated having to read her 35 page report on antisemitism in Germany. Sob gave her a b because they said it was too long.

Trump has described himself as a Nationalist. Add the word White, and you got yourself one hateful SOB. Not only is he coming after us and immigrants, but he will go after any portion of the population that does fit his agenda. The only thing missing is the uniformed men and the Nazi flag at his side.

The most important thing we can do is replace the conservatives in the Congress and Senate now, and then replace HIM in 2020. Our votes aolne won't be enough. He knows that. The rest of the country needs to know just how evil and twisted Trump is, so that there could be sufficient numbers to vote out the bigots.

Anyone that would rather see this entire country go to war against anyone that is not cis, straight, and white, is someone I would wish horrible things on.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on October 24, 2018, 09:30:48 PM
Trump has described himself as a Nationalist. Add the word White, and you got yourself one hateful SOB. Not only is he coming after us and immigrants, but he will go after any portion of the population that does fit his agenda.

And its not just illegal immigrants... when he wanted to stop refugees from coming in awhile back that showed he has no heart... just political calculation...

My mother came here as WWII displaced person-a refugee... (she was in German forced labor camp... and she was pretty young woman at the time... she never ever talked to anyone about her time there - not even my father...)

He is fanning xenophobia and racial hatred to gin up his base... Evil extremely dangerous man- in some way reminiscent of Joe McCarthy - he definitely has no sense of decency...

And this time the whole republican party has sold it's soul to him to try to remain in power...

I fear for future of this country greatly, and would even if I was not TS ... I am shocked and amazed that so much of the US population is OK with all of this...

- Karen

I am going to go back to the original topic for a moment.

Quote from: gingerViktorKay on October 21, 2018, 12:53:03 PM
"The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."

Anyone who has genetic markers for an intersex condition is not included in his ban? Apparently, if someone does not have genetic markers according to this administration that person is a cross dresser.

Right, wrong, or indifferent it is the way it sounds to me. And this sounds complicated. I would like more information regarding their position regarding intersex individuals rights under the proposed plan. From what I understand I am not the only person on this site with an confirmed intersex condition.

I wonder if this is worded this way to create divisions between the transgendered community?

Do not misinterpret my interest for intersex person exclusion in this ban. I support everyone who feels they need to transition to do so.

Quote from: Karen_A on October 24, 2018, 09:55:07 PM


My mother came here as WWII displaced person-a refugee... (she was in German forced labor camp... and she was pretty young woman at the time... she never ever talked to anyone about her time there - not even my father...)

- Karen

We seems to have a similar history.  My mother was also interned in one of the "Arbeit macht frei" camps.  She never talked about it either.  I did not even know until she had died, and my father told me about it!
It must have been a horrible experience for these young women, and that is the reason that I get angry  when I see what is going on here in this country.  I do not want anybody in the world to experience what our mothers had to endure!

And they were the lucky ones, they came out alive!

Quote from: Dietlind on October 24, 2018, 10:21:17 PM
We seems to have a similar history.  My mother was also interned in one of the "Arbeit macht frei" camps.  She never talked about it either.  I did not even know until she had died, and my father told me about it!
It must have been a horrible experience for these young women, and that is the reason that I get angry  when I see what is going on here in this country.  I do not want anybody in the world to experience what our mothers had to endure!

And they were the lucky ones, they came out alive!

It helped she was not Jewish!

What many people don't realize is that while the germans specifically targeted the Jews for extinction, there were a lot of non Aryans  in the the forced labor camps (germans consider teh slavic people non Aryan) ... including my mother and her brother, my uncle...

In any case as it touched my immediate family,  all of that history could not help but influence my politics...

History has show that nationalism and racism are VERY dangerous forces ... particularly when combined.

- karen

This has gone way beyond the intent has become vitriolic.

There is a common cause and that is transgender rights. I am locking this thread and will only allow discussion relevant to transgender rights in other threads.