Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I realize that a public restaurant should be clearly open to all.  I was wondering if we as mtfs are invading gay and lesbian establishments if we are patrons, and not also guests of gay or lesbians?

I have been reading online that the greater public acceptance of gays and lesbians, neighborhood gentrification, cis-women having bachelorette parties at gay and lesbian establishments, and so on have contributed to less of a gay and lesbian environment in many gay and lesbian bars and restaurants.

Futhermore, because of greater gay and lesbian acceptance, gays and lesbians are far more comfortable going anywhere, and this is causing gay and lesbian establishments' business to often slow down, resulting in some gay and lesbian establishments to close.

While one can say that our money is good as that of gays and lesbians, that these gay and lesbian establishments are public places, I am a woman sensitive to others, including the feelings of gays and lesbians that their gay and lesbians venues are perhaps being eroded by transgenders or straight people. Further, as some online articles state, there are various types of gay and lesbian bars and restaurants.  Look at articles on the Internet about all of this, as that can make for interesting reading and you can see diverse perspectives.

I suppose we could say, go, why not, if you do not feel comfortable there, do not return.
But I do care about people's feelings, not just mine.  Thoughtfulness can go a very long way.

What do you think about this, should we just go, or go if as a guest of a gay or lesbian, or go if a lgbt supporting event or meal is being held at that gay or lesbian establishment?


Chrissy

TBH, I don't know how I would be aware that a restaurant was a lesbian space until I had seen the clientelle, and even then, it might take me a while to catch on.  A restaurant is a public space, and they cannot exclude people (at least not in this part of the world).  So it is not a case of invading "their space".  It is just choosing to eat at a particular establishment.

Since I would most likely be dining with my wife, we would obviously be a same-sex couple.  If it truly is a lesbian restaurant, we would be the type of customers they would want.  I don't disclose my trans status to random strangers or to wait staff.  The only way the issue could come up would be if someone read me and decided to be rude about it.

I can understand if individuals, gay or straight, take a dislike to me for whatever reason.  Their loss.  But I don't offend most people, not even most lesbians.  So I just can't see it being an issue.

We have limited options where I live, it being a mid-sized city. The "primary" gay & lesbian bar has very much accepted the trans* community as well, such as hosting a Thanksgiving meal and our "Empire" events. Between Drag and Trans, it seems pretty unified and open.

As you said, our money is a good as anybody else's, and I feel like they're happy to have more customers and more energy.

I have seen some of the cis-female gatherings going on there too, but they don't feel intrusive to me -- they are at their tables and seem to be there for the same reason of celebration and joy as anybody else.

In my neck of the world, it is common place as most of the gay and lesbian bars often have different nights of different types. A lot of them have drag queen shows on different nights. I'm just guessing here but I don't think there is an issue. I've never heard of any such issues.

An interesting question though Chrissy. Definitely worth exploring.

Quote from: Donica on December 01, 2018, 01:02:55 PM
In my neck of the world, it is common place as most of the gay and lesbian bars often have different nights of different types. A lot of them have drag queen shows on different nights. I'm just guessing here but I don't think there is an issue. I've never heard of any such issues.

An interesting question though Chrissy. Definitely worth exploring.

Donica,

When I went online to explore the question of if transpeople are accepted at gay and lesbian establishments, I found a trove of articles.  Some of these articles led me to pose the question in this thread.  Some articles mentioned that gays and lesbians establishments were losing their original atmosphere of providing exclusive spaces where they can be accepted. 

A more diverse clientele can bring in more revenues though and that is good for the businesses, unless I suppose it drives away larger parts of their base clientele of gays and lesbians that more than offsets the revenue gain from non-gays becoming patrons.

If straight people (or anyone, including gays and lesbians) go to these places, often marked by various lgbt flags or signs, and they feel uncomfortable, they likely will not return.  They should expect to see gay or trans couples, and some may greet or say good-bye to each other by hugging or sharing a quick kiss.  Perhaps they should now expect to see trans people, including those who may not pass well.  It may be difficult for anyone to know if someone there is straight, gay or lesbian, or trans in any case.  One would wish no one would care, and instead, embrace all.

However, this does route back to the original question, if a more diverse clientele attend, the atmosphere could be unwelcome by some gays and lesbians, or embraced by some, or some do not care, as people are people!  Are we invading as mtfs invading their spaces to their detriment?

Chrissy

Call it a vibe, a feeling, or something else, but I feel more comfortable fitting in a pub/bar that isn't LGBT. The couple times I did frequent a gay bar, there was a drag show, I felt uncomfortable. Maybe because I didn't want to be confused by the straight people who were there that drag queens and me were the same.

How would then even know.  If you're eating at a gay owned, lbgt friendly, restaurant it's not exactly like you have to wear a sign that says "I'm gay."  I've been going to Pete's Kitchen on East Colfax for years.  They have great hamburgers and the vibe is welcome to all.  Straight or gay.

As a matter of fact your on pretty solid ground here given that the Rainbow Flag is an explicit symbol of inclusivity.

I would not even know what a gay or lesbian place is.  I don't know any of such places where I live, but I don't know any gay or lesbian persons either (how would I be able to identify them?)

If the food is decent and the ownership and some staff is LGBT, I'll be there to dine and support them.  I will generally avoid drag shows.  Some drag acts are both loud and misogynistic (a few mocking trans women as well!) which I do not care for.  I will go to the shows one friend works in, as they are a relatively class act, no misogyny, and a really good performance by someone in great shape with excellent makeup skills.

I would not care unless people said that I was not welcome.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 01, 2018, 01:54:32 PM
However, this does route back to the original question, if a more diverse clientele attend, the atmosphere could be unwelcome by some gays and lesbians, or embraced by some, or some do not care, as people are people!  Are we invading as mtfs invading their spaces to their detriment?
Chrissy

I think if  group of hetrosexual people organised themeselves to visit a gay or lesbian bar en masse regularly then that would be invasive.

But if it is individuals (of any orientation) who just happen to go there for the atmosphere and food, then it shouldn't matter.

Will someone be unwelcoming? Maybe. But unless you are going out of your way to flaunt whatever it is they can't accept for a few hours, I think it's okay.

Conversely, if a cis man and a cis women walk in to have dinner and drinks together, who's to say they are, or are not, both gay anyway?

~Dee.

We live in an ugly world. Don't many people view transgendered people as crossdressers anyhow? It does not make sense for gay or lesbian establishments to discriminate.

I have yet to find a gay/ lesbian establishment that discriminated against trans, especially here in Chicago. Granted, there are some that are more "trans friendly" but the vast majority of the bars and clubs are super inclusive

This brings to mind an old joke that might just fit this thread.

A transgender horse walks into a gay club and 'saddles up' to the bar. The gay bartender smiles and says, "Hi friend, why the long face?"

Get it?

Quote from: Nina on December 01, 2018, 02:04:51 PM
The couple times I did frequent a gay bar, there was a drag show, I felt uncomfortable. Maybe because I didn't want to be confused by the straight people who were there that drag queens and me were the same.

I have had this thought too. We went to the beach with friends and one of them suggested going to a show. I told them to go. I was not great at passing at that point and pretty self conscious. I think we should all support each other in whatever way we feel comfortable. Everybody needs allies even if we don't fit in exactly.

I think it was partially this drag queen image that prevented me to transition earlier!  I just did not want to be like one of them, and I am still concerned that some people may see me as a drag queen or a cross dresser!

I just want to be who I am, perceived to be as such. I want to be clear that I don't disparage others for their paths. My story was not meant to look down on any other group. Linde, with the limited information in the media while we were growing up, it is not hard to think that we had a difficult time finding examples of who we relate to. My impressions of trans people growing up were of one or two people who seemed to get hounded with bad press.

You are right Moni, what did we know about transgender?  I am  some years older than you, and i believe transgender persons were not really known when I grew up.  Only those who cross dressed, or those who lived in the world of sex business as drag queens were know.  Both were shunned by society, and not suitable as a role model.
The only intersex people one ever heard about were the hermaphrodites who were attractions in cheap carnival shows. It is for sure that I did not want to be like those. 
So we continued to stay in the closet and the frustration build up until it could not be bottled any longer.  For me it was the destruction of my very happy marriage.
I envy the trans and intersex young people of today, even though it is still hard to come out, but society is changing, and they have a chance to live a long life in the rolle that is theirs, and they can develop in the way they were mend to live!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 02, 2018, 09:34:06 AM
... I am still concerned that some people may see me as a drag queen or a cross dresser!

When I sent an early photo of myself cross dressed, a niece replied that I "look really good in drag." I was a little put off by her use of the term but wasn't sure myself of the distinction at the time.

Now even "cross dresser" has varying definitions. Our therapist last week was insistent that many of her cross dressing clients feel the same compulsion to express their feelings as transgender people do. So some people may use transgender and cross dresser interchangeably. They may not mean it the way you fear they do when it comes into the conversation.

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There are so many negative connotations for transgender people already and now we are "Space Invaders?"

Quote from: DawnOday on December 02, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
There are so many negative connotations for transgender people already and now we are "Space Invaders?"

I don't know Dawn, if we get like cool uniforms like Star Trek and can avoid the humans shooting us out of the ski, I might be up for it. lol Just don't want to come down to the planet in a red blouse. They never survive.

Uh oh, I'm out around town today in a red shirt lol

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I have to say, the others have no fashion sense.

Quote from: HappyMoni on December 02, 2018, 01:20:17 PM
I don't know Dawn, if we get like cool uniforms like Star Trek and can avoid the humans shooting us out of the ski, I might be up for it. lol Just don't want to come down to the planet in a red blouse. They never survive.

Moni,

Hmmmm....  uniforms...  How about those miniskirts from that first Star Trek television series?
Gosh, they used tablet computers "way back" on the 1960s show, although the show was set way in the future.  Still in reruns, a televison classic!

Chrissy

Chrissy, I think we could pull it off. I get a lot of comments on my legs and have you seen Dawn's legs? Ooh la la! She's got to be our captain. I'll be Ensign Moni, 1st class Space Invader, reporting for duty.

Quote from: HappyMoni on December 02, 2018, 02:45:43 PM
Chrissy, I think we could pull it off. I get a lot of comments on my legs and have you seen Dawn's legs? Ooh la la! She's got to be our captain. I'll be Ensign Moni, 1st class Space Invader, reporting for duty.

Moni,

Well us two ensigns and the Captain just enjoyed dinner at one of these restaurants (we were welcomed there).  Captain Dawn just said, "Beam us up Scotty!"   :)

Quote from: HappyMoni on December 02, 2018, 02:45:43 PM
Chrissy, I think we could pull it off. I get a lot of comments on my legs and have you seen Dawn's legs? Ooh la la! She's got to be our captain. I'll be Ensign Moni, 1st class Space Invader, reporting for duty.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 02, 2018, 03:14:20 PM

Moni,

Well us two ensigns and the Captain just enjoyed dinner at one of these restaurants (we were welcomed there).  Captain Dawn just said, "Beam us up Scotty!"   :)

Scotty and Uhura wore red and always came back, but most others could have been in the credits as ensign dead guy. 

Speaking of Star Trek uniforms, I remember always wanting to wear one of those dresses when I was watching as a kid.

To be on topic for a bit, I don't think there would be any issues at a restaurant. Generally they are not able to limit their clientele and still be profitable.

Possibly issues in bars. In a male oriented gay bar generally no one there would  be interested in females of any sort. Probably more disinterest than discrimination though. There is a small but vocal group of
lesbians that have issues with trans ladies. Look up TERF on Twitter if you really want to know more.

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Chrissy, I just love your question and also your sensitivity in even asking it. My wife and I have quite a few friends in the LGBTQ+ spectrum and I have raised this very question amongst them several times. The press about TERFs is my prime driver of the question. I have never met a self professed TERF and only know of them from some comments here on Susan's and a few other publication comments. Of my friends that are quite experienced in various lifestyles, they have never found an environment that they would not consider safe and accepting of me.

I would be concerned about invading the space of territorial people, whether strong minded gay or lesbians or any form of judgmental people that have somewhat defined their territory. So far, in our travels around this country and a bit in Canada, we have yet to run into such a situation. Our standard procedure is to enter a place and present a warm and accepting demeanor and have always felt the same reflected back.

Tia Anne

Quote from: DawnOday on December 02, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
There are so many negative connotations for transgender people already and now we are "Space Invaders?"

Just like all the other aliens, including ET.
I could easily play an alien.  I lived here in this country for about 30 years as an alien, all documented, and had an alien registration card to proof it!

I've spent a lot of time in gay spaces, I always felt welcome. I did get the hairy eyeball once, but the guy I was with said the staring was probably because we looked like a straight couple there to gawk at gay guys. (The bartenders there all wore leather pants and no shirts, to give you an idea what kind of place it was.)