Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The EHRC interim statutory guidance has dropped here:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

It is statutory guidance, which means that UK government, schools, businesses and everything from book clubs to large multinationals must, by law follow it.

It is completely devoid of any mitigating nuance, which is something that anyone with even a basic understanding of UK politics would have expected, given the history and statements of the leader of the EHRC, Baroness Falkner.

Headlines:

• There is an outright prohibition on trans people using facilities, change, bathrooms and all other facilities aligned other than their sex registered at birth: "trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men's facilities"
• It is also allowed to ban you from ALL AND ANY sex based services, even those aligned with your birth gender: "the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities"
• You only have to make sure that there is a single facility for trans people somewhere, and you only need to do that where you have provided single sex facilities for both sexes. "where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use"
• Trans people HAVE TO BY LAW be banned from single sex groups of any type, of 25 people or more, for example if you have a women's rambling/hiking group' or a 'book/birdwatching club for men', they must by law exclude trans people. "Membership of an association of 25 or more people can be limited to men only or women only and can be limited to people who each have two protected characteristics. It can be, for example, for gay men only or lesbian women only. A women-only or lesbian-only association should not admit trans women (biological men), and a men-only or gay men-only association should not admit trans men (biological women)."

Non-stealth trans people can reasonably expect to be removed from virtually all single sex facilities groups and services in the UK such as toilets in shops, change rooms in gyms and clothing stores, hospital wards, book clubs, swim class, work bathrooms.

I speak in another thread about what this means for you and what I suggest you should do to survive in the UK. (Spoiler: Its get out if you can.)

There will be a public consultation on the full set of regulations. "The consultation will be launched in mid-May and last for two weeks". I would not expect it to be an honest consultation, given the very short consultation period, the history of transphobia  including high profile resignations from the EHRC on grounds of transphobia, from the statutory organisation that is supposed to be protectors of trans people, and the whole organisation is a complete stitch up with a history of only consulting with anti-trans groups, the final review is likely to be more restrictive than this, unless there is massive pushback in the meantime.

Stay safe out there people.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on April 27, 2025, 03:18:42 AMThe EHRC interim statutory guidance has dropped here: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgmentIt (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgmentIt) is statutory guidance, which means that UK government, schools, businesses and everything from book clubs to large multinationals must, by law follow it.

Thanks Kira,

But the link seems broken:  This page could not be found (https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgmentIt)


~ Lilis 💗

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fsearch%3Fkeys%3DInterim%2Bguidance

Try this. This is an overview and a link to the pdf of the full text.

Edit

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on April 27, 2025, 11:04:00 AMhttps://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fsearch%3Fkeys%3DInterim%2Bguidance

Try this. This is an overview and a link to the pdf of the full text.

Just seeing this now, thanks.


~ Lilis 💗

I edited my reply because although I do think the ruling in the UK isn't good, and the political trajectory looks grim, we need to be a little bit careful not to panic? Or to cause panic?

I'm actively looking at moving from the UK, if I can, but want to do it in a measured way.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 11, 2025, 12:22:48 AMI edited my reply because although I do think the ruling in the UK isn't good, and the political trajectory looks grim, we need to be a little bit careful not to panic? Or to cause panic?

I get that, I really do, but too much panicking is not the problem we have; the problem we have is that people are not taking the danger seriously enough and think 'that couldn't happen here', 'something will happen to stop this'... Its normalcy bias.

The situation is dire, people are fleeing the country. The trans women ex-High Court judge Victoria McCloud is fleeing the country and said the UK is not safe for trans people. Alarm is proportionate, as is emphatically pointing out danger, making emergency arrangements. To the extent that the act of subduing this response could be harmful. I think that is the biggest danger, the concept that everything will be OK if we just do nothing and hope.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 22, 2025, 02:34:49 AMThe situation is dire, people are fleeing the country.
[...]

You may well be right Kira.

However, now that the initial brouhaha has passed I find myself more overtly femme than ever in public and I haven't stopped using the ladies loos. No one has challenged me and when I mention the topic to ordinary people out and about they don't have a clue to what I'm referring. In fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

I've no doubt that the UK's trajectory is a poor one, but the decision hasn't had any adverse effect on my personal life here yet. I do intend to relocate but talk of needing to flee is possibly a bit OTT.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 22, 2025, 10:12:28 PMIn fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

Most people seem to be unaware of what their governments are doing unless it directly affects them. Then they talk about it with others who might not have been aware. By the time enough people know and are upset about it, it is too late to do anything about it.

I am grateful for all of the activist organizations that scrutinize everything daily, and when something is wrong they jump on it right away... often before we even knew it was "a thing".

Quote from: Tills on May 22, 2025, 10:12:28 PMYou may well be right Kira.

However, now that the initial brouhaha has passed I find myself more overtly femme than ever in public and I haven't stopped using the ladies loos. No one has challenged me and when I mention the topic to ordinary people out and about they don't have a clue to what I'm referring. In fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

I've no doubt that the UK's trajectory is a poor one, but the decision hasn't had any adverse effect on my personal life here yet. I do intend to relocate but talk of needing to flee is possibly a bit OTT.

xx

Well I am pleased for you, really I am.

I live in a cluster of three small towns. There have been several anti trans attacks here one included a gang attacking a lone trans person with fireworks.

There have been numerous confrontations and incidents in bathrooms and change rooms that I am aware of an likely many more that I have not. Just because they have not happened to you, doesn't mean you are not at risk.

The UK Supreme court judge has left the country and I heard her speak yesterday to say that the UK is not safe anymore for trans people.

I am quite comfortable telling people to see the danger and take action.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 22, 2025, 02:34:49 AMthe problem we have is that people are not taking the danger seriously enough and think 'that couldn't happen here'

Are you in the UK, Kira? You don't have a country listed. I travel a great deal both within and outside the UK and overall, my impression is that among people generally, attitudes towards trans are much the same as they were ten years ago. A friend has just come out and described the general reaction from her family as, 'What's the drama.'

I've blogged about the EHRC draft guidance here (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2304472.html#msg2304472) and my feeling is we're going to go through a period where a lot of rules are going to have to be thought about. The chairman of the EHRC, for whom I do not have much love, has said that when the guidance about trans people (for whom they also have responsibility) comes out, institutions are not going to enjoy what the guidance has to say, for which, read, 'This will cost you to implement, but legally, you must.'

Looking around Europe, the situation in most countries is similar to that of the UK. If anyone's thinking of moving anywhere, just about the only country with better deal for trans people is Eire, which has allowed self idenfication for years. All the religious countries, including Italy, Spain, Hungary, Romania and Poland, have issues or laws against LGBTQ, Germany isn't great, France is patchy, the Netherlands much like the UK, and Norway and Sweden are okay. Outside Europe? Don't even think of Africa. The US is a mess and in the last poll I saw a quarter of all adults believed being gay should be outlawed let alone being trans. India has a four hundred year history of discriminating against trans people and Pakistan is worse. Some of southeast Asia is sort of okay, but below the surface trans people are exploited and tolerance is less good than it would appear at first sight. There are no shining beacons of tolerance anywhere, just various degrees of 'not too bad.'

So my assessment as of now is while it's easy to get rattled, anyone thinking of bailing may end up jumping out of a warm frying pan into the fire. I've lived through all of the Section 28 fiasco and LGBTQ causes in the UK came out in better shape at the end of that than they went in. So I'm just going to wait this one out.

I am indeed in the UK. I live here full time at the moment, until I can get out.

Your appraisal of the UK is not consistent with most others. I think you have been lucky.

"UK plummets down European rankings for LGBTQ+ rights – after topping list just a decade ago"
https://www.thepinknews.com/2025/05/14/uk-lgbtq-ilga-europe-ranking-2025/

Human Rights Watch say: "Court Ruling Threatens Trans People"
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/05/09/uk-court-ruling-threatens-trans-people

The Good law project talk about "The devastating impact of the Supreme Court judgment"
https://goodlawproject.org/the-devastating-impact-of-the-supreme-court-judgment/

and "UN experts sound alarm over trans rights in UK after Supreme Court ruling"
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/un-experts-sound-alarm-over-164034290.html

I have personally been present on multiple occassions in the last 2 weeks or so where trans people have been thrown out of facilities, surrounded and questioned.

Near me there have been multiple hate incidents including one gang attacking a trans person with fireworks.

The news is full of clickbait, Kira. If you're thinking of going, do it, but where are you going to go?

I've no problem accepting you wish to leave, Kira, none whatever, but please remember I also have a right to an opinion.

As someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

It's also wildly expensive. We spent around  £11,000 in fees to get me into the UK in 2019. We were fortunately spared the Spanish fees because my wife was transferred to Spain and the company paid for our visas (and had a lawyer do all the legwork).

With the UK no longer in the EU, there aren't a lot of places to go, unfortunately.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

Hiya, Devlyn! That's the issue, that and the lack of any nation that's a beacon of trans tolerance and gauranteed to remain so. Memories of Section 28 suggest this is likely to be a bumpy ride and not one I'm charmed to be on, but I'm looking at Gen Z and late Millennial attitudes to trans overall and they're more favourable than any other country I'm seeing polls from. Those people are coming into government and some are already in it now, so personally, I'm not going to panic and instead I'm going to wait and see.

I'm looking at this from a different perspective than Kira and that's probably due to my age. In the seventies, if you'd told me attitudes to trans in the UK would have become as liberal as they are now, I simply wouldn't have believed it. We've made a lot of progress since I was a teen and I've a feeling this current situation may likely end up being like Section 28, which generated lurid headlines of support from homophobic groups but ended up in an apology from David Cameron after it turned out to have so little public support no prosecutions were brought.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain)

What's the situation in Spain like, Dev? The attitudes to cis women there are like they were in the UK in the fifties in some parts of Spanish society and I have a trans friend there who ended up moving to a wildly rural community where she did find people who were seriously tolerant.

In Barcelona it's great. Trans and non-binary people everywhere. The olds stare, but that's their problem.

If you go back and search, you can find posts of mine saying that my generation is the problem, and that when we all die off the world will be a better place.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 06:17:45 AMIf you go back and search, you can find posts of mine saying that my generation is the problem

We definitely agree on that, I've made a lot of similar posts too.

One of the issues here is that positive stories rarely make headlines. I am aware, for example, that one of the oldest, most traditional 'gentlemen's clubs' in London has a trans member. The average age of the membership is like, eighty, but the committee sat down and, so I hear, decided there was no rule against someone who joined as a man becoming a woman, and since everyone liked her, it was fine for her to remain a member. I worked forty years in the NHS and saw many trans people gravitating to the staff because attitudes were liberal to supportive, yet for most in this country, perceptions of NHS staff attitudes overall are being biased by one high profile legal case.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 23, 2025, 03:21:12 AMThe UK Supreme court judge has left the country

I don't want to be a pedant but she wasn't and isn't a Supreme court judge.

As I mentioned, you may be right and I want to be supportive of you and others of us going through this. Meantime I'm living my life and haven't yet been challenged. I find generally that if I switch off 'the News' life is a whole heap happier ;)

Perhaps that's ostrich mentality but it's also easy on the flip side to worry more than we might.

xx

p.s. I am actively pursuing the option of either Ireland and Thailand. But I find talk of 'needing to flee' a little exaggerated. Maybe in 4 years if and when Reform hold the reins of power.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

It's also wildly expensive. We spent around  £11,000 in fees to get me into the UK in 2019. We were fortunately spared the Spanish fees because my wife was transferred to Spain and the company paid for our visas (and had a lawyer do all the legwork).

With the UK no longer in the EU, there aren't a lot of places to go, unfortunately.

Hugs, Devlyn

Very true.

As you have mentioned, Republic of Ireland is a clear option for us UK citizens, with the added bonus of EU entry if you apply for Irish citizenship after 5 yrs.

If you're over 50 and prepared to park c. $22000 USD in a Thai bank account then a Thai retirement visa is a serious proposition.

Quote from: Tills on May 23, 2025, 07:09:17 AMAs you have mentioned, Republic of Ireland is a clear option for us UK citizens, with the added bonus of EU entry if you apply for Irish citizenship after 5 yrs.

One of the big problems in Ireland is the price of property is sky high there, so that's a consideration too.

Another thing that has always made me inclined to take the long view is that all it takes is a change of government and an atmosphere of political tolerance can evaporate overnight, as happened in the US. We're entering a phase of right wing governments in Europe driven by attitudes to immigration that's already pushing France and Germany to the right. The UK has Reform waiting in the wings, of course, so there's more to come here and what may seem a safe haven today may not be so safe tomorrow from a political point of view.

What won't change so fast are the attitudes of ordinary people. If the government of say Spain lurches to the right, the attitudes of the citizens of Barcelona are far less likely to do so and ultimately it is to ordinary people and common culture that politicians must ulimately submit, much though they may protest. My judgment is like Dev's, as Boomers age out, attitudes are likely to continue the path of becoming more tolerant as they've been doing for the past fifty years.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 23, 2025, 04:56:45 AMThe news is full of clickbait, Kira. If you're thinking of going, do it, but where are you going to go?

I've no problem accepting you wish to leave, Kira, none whatever, but please remember I also have a right to an opinion.

I am unclear how anything I said suggested that you were not allowed an opinion (?), but if that was the impression you got then I am pleased to clarify that I understand that you are entitled to an opinion and to expressing it. 

I think that you should reconsider your disregarding the UN, Human Rights Watch, The Good Law Project and ILGA as producing 'clickbait'.  If you have a genuine critique of them, showing them to be disreputable, I would be pleased to see it, but if you are dismissing them without reason when they raise the alarm, the High Court Judge Victoria McCloud labelling the UK unsafe for trans people and all my personal experiences, then I think this is unduly dismissing evidence of danger.

The insinuation that my position is baseless, resting on 'clickbait' and the disregarding of my noting several occasions I have been present for altercations which support the narrative in the writings by UN, HRW, TGLP and ILGA, is invalidating of my personal experience without reason. I understand that they may not be the same as your experience, and that your experience is equally valid, but I am arguing that these things are happening, that I have personal experience of places in the UK that have become unsafe, and that other people and organisations are warning of the same.  Why would you disregard all this, and instead extrapolate your personal experience to the UK and suggest or infer that we are over reacting?

The strongest contender for fleeing is Ireland, as people from the UK have the right to live and work there and access benefits. It also has self ID and is part of Europe and gives you an EU passport in 5 years that will open up the EU to you to flee to, should things go sideways in Ireland.

Quote from: Tills on May 23, 2025, 07:03:04 AMI don't want to be a pedant but she wasn't and isn't a Supreme court judge.

Sorry I meant to say High Court judge. I do apologise.

I have to say I do find it quite frustrating, that each time I post to warn people of potential danger, even where I support it with personal experiences, and supporting evidence, others seem to want to say "oh I have no problems, so, counter point... people should not worry about what you are saying and its probably all just over reaction".

OK, but I have experienced quite severe issues. Others might too. I am trying to prevent harm, but others seem comfortable telling people that there is no need for alarm. OK, but I am scared for people in the UK. I am going to keep on warning people.

Let's not argue.   :)

Of course safety is important. Reporting news is important. But adding embellishments or hyperbole can have the opposite effect of what you may be trying to convey. Some people are literal learners and will take statements like "Everyone is out to  get us" or "They're coming for us" as an absolute fact.

While we need to have the discussions, we also need to make sure we're doing it in a way that doesn't cause other problems.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: TanyaG on May 23, 2025, 07:22:31 AMOne of the big problems in Ireland is the price of property is sky high there, so that's a consideration too.

I'm agreeing with pretty much everything you're posting on this at the moment, but for sake of peeps reading this who may be considering a move to the Republic of Ireland, property prices aren't really that sky high as long as you steer clear of Dublin and Wicklow. This is something @Devlyn has been pointing out to me, and she's essentially correct.

You can buy a spick and span, turnkey ready, apartment in a nice town or city for $135,000 USD. If you're prepared to do a place up you can buy an entire house in the country for half that figure, although you do need to watch out for concrete degradation in the west and north-west.

It's tantalisingly close for me. I'm about $20,000 short of where I'd like to be but I'm working on it. Anyone feel like donating to the cause?  :D

My alternative is Thailand. Very cheap place to live. I probably wouldn't bother to buy outright as renting is cheap cheap. But if you do buy you can get super condos in the city centre of Bangkok for c. $80000 USD. Cheaper still in many other areas.

I've spent a LOT of the last 10 years back and forth there, and I lived in Bangkok. I had my two major surgeries there, which were excellent. However, it's Thailand and you need to have eyes wide open. Behind the land of smiles, you need to be aware that there's a somewhat darker undercurrent if you wind people up. It's important to be polite, and stay away from dodgy areas and activities. I feel a certain reticence about going back there to retire out my days as I'm never totally relaxed there.

Sorry for these ramblings. I'm genuinely conflicted.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 23, 2025, 08:54:07 AMfor sake of peeps reading this who may be considering a move to the Republic of Ireland, property prices aren't really that sky high as long as you steer clear of Dublin and Wicklow

That's good news. We have friends in Dublin and property prices are made there. I love Ireland, the only place in the whole world where you can see tractors triple parking outside pubs. So many stories of good times there.

That relocation cost just for being able to enter and stay certainly is not inexpensive, that is for sure.

Things to look out for in Ireland are "local needs" which means you can't live there without having local ties and  absolute, undisputed proof that you have to live there, on that spot, and nowhere else. Also usually recommended to have letters from the local athletic society and the local vicar. It's all against EU law, and the court cases are in progress.

Vacant house grants...yes, they're available. But you need to use a pre-approved list of contractors (think kickbacks and nepotism), and the money is reimbursed, not issued up front. So you need deep pockets.

Gaelic catchment areas. Some areas won't let your children attend school unless they speak Gaelic. They do offer summer courses so your kids can learn it before school starts.

Faeries. Leprechauns. The Little People. You've been warned.  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 09:40:49 AMThings to look out for in Ireland are "local needs" which means you can't live there without having local ties and  absolute, undisputed proof that you have to live there, on that spot, and nowhere else. Also usually recommended to have letters from the local athletic society and the local vicar. It's all against EU law, and the court cases are in progress.

That's for building or doing up a place in rural areas isn't it Devlyn?

I should be fine for buying an apartment in a town or city?

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 09:40:49 AMFaeries. Leprechauns. The Little People. You've been warned.  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

 :D

Quote from: Tills on May 23, 2025, 09:54:59 AMThat's for building or doing up a place in rural areas isn't it Devlyn?

I should be fine for buying an apartment in a town or city?

By and large, yes. The laws are designed to keep the quaint Irish countryside quaint. They don't want big glass cubes perched on cliffs or McMansions on the edge of villages. Personally I think that part is for the better.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 10:06:03 AMThey don't want big glass cubes perched on cliffs or McMansions on the edge of villages

I've strong memories of the 'Bungalow Bliss' era which was quite the thing!

I'm going to a big Premier League soccer (UK "football") match tomorrow. The 66,000 capacity stadium is fully sold out.

There's only one way to be, and that's me, so it will be interesting to see if I encounter any hostility in what is often a very masculine atmosphere. The club specifically oppose transphobia and say so on their match day links. I'll be using the ladies loos of course.

I'll let you know how it goes!

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 23, 2025, 10:04:13 PMThere's only one way to be, and that's me, so it will be interesting to see if I encounter any hostility in what is often a very masculine atmosphere.

Hope it's a good match! It'll be interesting to hear how you get on, but enjoy yourself and stay safe!

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 23, 2025, 03:21:12 AMThere have been numerous confrontations and incidents in bathrooms and change rooms that I am aware of an

Do you have quantifiable evidence to back up the claim that these confrontations and incidents have increased in the UK since the ruling? As opposed to hearsay and social media rumourmongering. That would be useful, especially for helping people who look at this site if they are making informed decisions. you may be right, but let's back it up.

It's important that we keep this evidential. The same goes for me, of course.

xx

Quote from: TanyaG on May 24, 2025, 12:35:40 AMHope it's a good match! It'll be interesting to hear how you get on, but enjoy yourself and stay safe!

Thanks Tanya! I had a great time. Dressed femme, made up, and used the ladies throughout. No issues at all. Brilliant atmosphere at the game with 66,000 present in the stadium.

I'm not extrapolating from one person's experience at a football match but I didn't detect any hostility today  or anyone questioning my right to be me. Indeed, the Club made a point of displaying their support for Pride members on a neon ticker feed throughout the afternoon. All pretty cool really.

I wonder if the best response to this minority of butch TERFs is to ignore them completely, not flee, and just get on living our lives? I don't think most women give a bleep about the issue. And we're hardly going to be dragged out of the ladies by pop-up police officers.

Anyway, I came back feeling encouraged and uplifted.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 25, 2025, 03:30:49 PMI wonder if the best response to this minority of butch TERFs is to ignore them completely, not flee, and just get on living our lives? I don't think most women give a bleep about the issue. And we're hardly going to be dragged out of the ladies by pop-up police officers.

I'm so glad you had a good time! And yes, I agree with you, I think we're more likely to benefit our cause if we don't respond to grandstanding and instead show we are people who deserve as much consideration as anyone else and who will give as much consideration as anyone else. If we can bid that realisation in then it will be very hard for the shallow end of the pool to gaslight about us being a threat to society, that's for sure!

For what it's worth, I just came out to the entire family, whose ages range from late sixties down to twenties and nobody turned a hair.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 26, 2025, 07:37:09 AMI'm so glad you had a good time! And yes, I agree with you, I think we're more likely to benefit our cause if we don't respond to grandstanding and instead show we are people who deserve as much consideration as anyone else and who will give as much consideration as anyone else. If we can bid that realisation in then it will be very hard for the shallow end of the pool to gaslight about us being a threat to society, that's for sure!

For what it's worth, I just came out to the entire family, whose ages range from late sixties down to twenties and nobody turned a hair.

Oh that's wonderful news Tanya. I am so thrilled for you. Massive congratulations and so great about their response.

xx

I had an interesting conversation with my hairdresser Poppy this morning. About covid.

She was a radical. Never wore a mask and got on and lived her life. In many ways, I was the opposite. But I now look back at all of that and question my approach.

It led us into a discussion of the way in which authorities try to control us. I mentioned the many instances in WWII in which seemingly sensible and decent people committed acts of atrocities simply because someone in a uniform told them to do so. It became a famous attempted defence in trials for justice.

A British pop psychologist, mentalist, and illusionist by the name of Derren Brown re-enacted one of the most famous experiments of all time, the Milgram Experiment, in a rather brilliant programme called The Heist. In this, he took six apparently normal members of the public and tried to condition them to perform a bank heist. The results were fairly astonishing (no spoilers if you haven't seen it).

Anyway, in the programme the Milgram experiment was re-enacted. A man in a white coat tells an apparently sensible member of the public to increase electric shocks to someone on the other side of a screen. And for the most part that is exactly what they do: to apparently lethal levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Why do people do this? Why do they blindly follow? Because they're told to by people in authority.

Poppy the hairdresser (she's natal female) and I applied this to the UK Supreme Court ruling. And we both agreed that in so far as we are able, the best possible outcome is to get on and live our lives.

For sure, there are serious issues here such as legal documentation and what happens on hospital wards but maybe the best approach is to ignore the men butch women in white coats. Take no notice of them. Live your life as an independent woman. Be free.

I'm not making light of things. I'm suggesting that when the law is an ass it should be treated with the contempt it deserves. And ignored.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 28, 2025, 10:06:22 AMI'm not making light of things. I'm suggesting that when the law is an ass it should be treated with the contempt it deserves. And ignored.

This is what happened with Section 28 and it ended with Cameron having to stand up and apologise to the nation for passing a law that had no grassroots support, so I'm onside with your approach!

Quote from: Tills on May 28, 2025, 10:06:22 AMI'm not making light of things. I'm suggesting that when the law is an ass it should be treated with the contempt it deserves. And ignored.

Here, in the U.S., our Founding Fathers said it so eloquently in the preamble to our Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

;D

It is amazing that there is concern in the USA or UK for harm to or not allowing us to live simply as who we are, civil transgender people.

So true @ChrissyRyan

Thank you @Lori Dee for reminding us of those words. They really are rather wonderful, aren't they? It's quite the foundational blueprint.

I bought some summer clothes from Primark yesterday. I wanted to try them on so went to the fitting rooms. There was one area labelled 'Women' and the other area was labelled 'All Genders.'

I picked up my garment security thingy from the female attendant and went into the Women's section twice. I wouldn't have considered doing anything else.

No one said a thing. I'm looking femme at the moment though anyway I guess.

I'm not really paying much attention to the so-called 'News' tbf. I'm just getting on with living my female life in the UK and right now I can't say I've encountered anything hostile.

I accept that this may change and 'there may be trouble ahead' (Nat King Cole) on a political and legal level which might filter down into people's attitudes. But I think the majority of the UK population have other things to worry about.

xx

p.s. I might be in denial, mind  ;)

I feel that the real trouble in the UK could come c. 4 years from now which is the latest date for the next General Election. Reform are leading in all the national opinion polls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

As a result, the Labour Gov't have lurched to the Right on many issues: pandering to that wing of the electorate. So either way, on a national level the outlook isn't particularly encouraging.

For those outside of the UK who aren't aware, Reform are led by Donald Trump's friend Nigel Farage, who helped instigate Britain's exit from the European Union.

xx