Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This could just as easily be in the medical section but I want to kick it off here because for many years this has been a political more than a truly scientific football.

A long time ago I recognised the danger we were placing ourselves in by ceding the difference between sex and gender. Or at least, ceding it too easily.

As an academic (former Professor) I've never liked simplistic arguments. They're always wrong. Or, rather, there's always a 'yes, but'. That doesn't sit happily with the internet, where those without the research background, like to pile onto topics and want everything in cut and dried 'yes/no' arguments.

'Biological sex' is complex. Much more complex than, 'but does it have a willy?' which is basically the level to which much of this has descended. It encompasses myriad hormones, alleles, polymorphisms, steroids, glands, and not just simplistic XX or XY reductionism.

Allied to the physical dimensions of 'sex' there is the multi-layered psycho-somatic component, which is just as much a part of biology as a chromosome. TERF's, of course, contend that people who transition male to female are closet abusers. The absurdity, and evidential untruth, of this should have been pulled down long ago. None of us who go through the process of being true to the person we are meant to be do so lightly or in a cavalier manner. It's gruelling and often comes at great cost, be that socially or in other ways.

We need to attack this at the point where they think they are strongest. They aren't, and it isn't. Biological sex is complex. It's much more complex than the facile level to which it has been reduced.

xx

In the past couple of years I have raised on forums that the lack of definitions would be weaponised against us, and while it generated some discussion, there were as many against pushing for more concise definitions as there were for it. Now we are seeing conservative government globally listening to groups like terfs and changing laws to oppress us.

The original meanings of Sex and Gender have been rendered useless over the past 50 years, with even medical publications conflating the two. Our community has been part of this by holding sacred the term 'Transgender', which reads to the broader communities as us changing gender. The WHO tried to improve this by introducing the term 'Gender Incongruent', but while incongruent is a concise, the term gender now is confusing.

We need a new, concise and appropriate term for those of us who suffer incongruence with our birth sex. This will assist in clarifying our position in medicine and law, and make it harder for those who seek to oppress us. But, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 05:36:44 PMBut, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

You are assuming they want to, Allie. Whatever terms you want to put to it... the world these days is a far right, book burning, head-in-the-sand, vilification of people. Coming up with new words won't change that. As sad as it is, I really don't think it will change because we come up with a term more people away from the hateful, orange, suit-wearing, hundred dollar-bill burning elite crowd have it in their heads to try and persecute. You can call our condition whatever you want... but these people only see it as "not born male, or female". And that's what they're trying to push all their laws on.

In my opinion, broader society doesn't matter these days. Broader society voted in all these lunatics who are making these changes to everything. And there's very little they can do for a few years. You made your bed, we have to lie in it.

All I can hope for is that the insanity of these regimes people think they want, show people it's not what they want. And trying to come up with better terms for trans people won't change that. Because it isn't why most people voted. It isn't what they care about. It's what those in power care about. Trans folks don't lower inflation. Don't make your fuel or groceries cheaper. They cannot do that because the world doesn't work that way, so they tap into primal human hatred for difference.

Like the movie Gladiator said 25 years ago. "Distract people and they will love you for it." That's all this is.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2025, 05:50:39 PMYou are assuming they want to, Allie. Whatever terms you want to put to it... the world these days is a far right, book burning, head-in-the-sand, vilification of people. Coming up with new words won't change that. As sad as it is, I really don't think it will change because we come up with a term more people away from the hateful, orange, suit-wearing, hundred dollar-bill burning elite crowd have it in their heads to try and persecute. You can call our condition whatever you want... but these people only see it as "not born male, or female". And that's what they're trying to push all their laws on.

In my opinion, broader society doesn't matter these days. Broader society voted in all these lunatics who are making these changes to everything. And there's very little they can do for a few years. You made your bed, we have to lie in it.

All I can hope for is that the insanity of these regimes people think they want, show people it's not what they want. And trying to come up with better terms for trans people won't change that. Because it isn't why most people voted. It isn't what they care about. It's what those in power care about. Trans folks don't lower inflation. Don't make your fuel or groceries cheaper. They cannot do that because the world doesn't work that way, so they tap into primal human hatred for difference.

Like the movie Gladiator said 25 years ago. "Distract people and they will love you for it." That's all this is.

Sephira, the world is a bit more than the US and UK. Germany, Canada, and Australia have recently held elections which went against conservatives, and there will be other countries take this path. I don't want to propose a new term, but to encourage our community to look at what is happening to it every day, and decide that we need to push for change.

in 2022, our Conservative Party made anti trans policy an election issue, and because of support in the broader community, it cost that party the election. Our community had been portrayed positively by celebrities and tv shows, and the electorate responded. So I have seen the effect of positive public opinion, and I am confident it would help our present position.

But, you keep doing what you are doing, but don't expect to get anything other than what you are currently getting.

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 07:08:43 PMSephira, the world is a bit more than the US and UK. Germany, Canada, and Australia have recently held elections which went against conservatives, and there will be other countries take this path. I don't want to propose a new term, but to encourage our community to look at what is happening to it every day, and decide that we need to push for change.

in 2022, our Conservative Party made anti trans policy an election issue, and because of support in the broader community, it cost that party the election. Our community had been portrayed positively by celebrities and tv shows, and the electorate responded. So I have seen the effect of positive public opinion, and I am confident it would help our present position.

But, you keep doing what you are doing, but don't expect to get anything other than what you are currently getting.

Hugs,

Allie

I want to agree with you, Allie, and I hope you're right. I really do. We just had local elections in the UK. And the Reform party did better than anyone. These are the people whose leader is basically Trump's best friend. Nigel Farage. They stole votes from both major parties here. And got their first elected mayor. They have insane, bonkers, massively far right policies. People wanted it. I think they were probably drugged but they wanted it.

Allie, what the biggest countries in the world do, it filters down into other countries. That's how it's always been and how it will always be. Change has to come from the top. Trust me I know what you're saying. And I know why it might be a good idea. I just... I don't think it will matter. You can't change people who don't want to be changed, just by using different words. You just can't. You have to wait for people to realise that "You know what? This is kind of nasty." And that always comes when hatred doesn't work. When it doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anyone else's life better.

When you run out of people to blame for how crap things are... you realise maybe we shouldn't be blaming other people at all. And that's when it all flips. Like it has done in the past, and will continue to do.

For our newer members that possibly are not entirely aware of
what the term TERF entails, please continue reading:

Reference:     GLAAD Media Reference Guide – 11th Edition
                                      https://glaad.org/reference/

      Glossary of Terms: Transgender
https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms

TERF and Gender Critical
Terms used to describe anti-trans activists who seek to limit full equality for transgender people
and exclude trans women from women's spaces.
The term TERF is an acronym for "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist."

IMPORTANT NOTE:  "Susan's Place Forum policy"
 - Posting any topic or making any post that directly implies that Trans people are not
  really men (FTM) or women (MTF), is not allowed on the Susan's Place Forum.

Danielle [Northern Star Girl]
  The Forum Administrator    Email: alaskandanielle@yahoo.com

    Forum Moderator Team:
      @Devlyn
      @Jessica_Rose
      @Lori Dee
      @Sarah B
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  Forum Administrator:
      @Northern Star Girl (Danielle)

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 05:36:44 PMIn the past couple of years I have raised on forums that the lack of definitions would be weaponised against us, and while it generated some discussion, there were as many against pushing for more concise definitions as there were for it. Now we are seeing conservative government globally listening to groups like terfs and changing laws to oppress us.

The original meanings of Sex and Gender have been rendered useless over the past 50 years, with even medical publications conflating the two. Our community has been part of this by holding sacred the term 'Transgender', which reads to the broader communities as us changing gender. The WHO tried to improve this by introducing the term 'Gender Incongruent', but while incongruent is a concise, the term gender now is confusing.

We need a new, concise and appropriate term for those of us who suffer incongruence with our birth sex. This will assist in clarifying our position in medicine and law, and make it harder for those who seek to oppress us. But, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

I totally agree Allie.

Thanks @Northern Star Girl for that. I should have explained the term, even though it makes me shudder ;)

I see what you're saying @Sephirah but we should surely stand up to this? I think @Allie is correct that getting these terms defined more clearly would help greatly.

It would help our cause to elaborate on and explain the complexities and nuances of 'biological sex'. At the moment it is being pushed out in the media as if the term is self-explanatory. And it is, almost literally, at the level of 'does it have a penis or vagina?'

Contemporary discourse on most topics is of a generally poor standard, and influenced by so much toxicity and falsehood. I mean, you're both right in that the terms within the transgender 'debate' are used so loosely and in a weaponised manner to suit other pre-determined agendas.

It's very early in the morning and I may not have expressed this particularly well :)

xx

What would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 02:31:04 AMWhat would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

I agree with Devlyn. Words don't make change. Change makes change. It has to come from inside people to just... not be hateful towards other people. Which to some seems like a no-brainer... but to the no-brainers is kind of a hard thing.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 02:31:04 AMWhat would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

Of course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Okay.... I'm gender fluid. Am I going to be a "differentiated entity" now?

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 13, 2025, 03:39:06 AMOf course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Allie, I know what you're saying but it isn't confusion. At this point people get it. More people than ever get it. They just choose to discriminate. And changing what words you use won't change that. People choose to discriminate because people above them tell them it's okay to discriminate. We have gone back to 1984.

You can't educate people who don't want to be educated. You can't teach people who don't want to learn.

What you can do is foster goodwill in people who want to support us. All of us. And wait for this right wing idiotstorm to blow over. And hold on until this agenda of hate leads to what we all know it will lead to. People no better off with no one left to blame. When the push to remove immigrants doesn't work. When the push to marginalise parts of society you don't like doesn't work... when every hot coal of anger you try to to throw at the world doesn't work... the only thing left is understanding. It will come because it will come.

We don't need to educate people, Allie. Not these days. Not in the way you're thinking of. The world is a crucible of information. We just need to be patient to the point that people choose to learn because they are sick of all the hatred. And sick of all the hatemongers. I don't know how long that will take, because the world is seemingly suffering from heatstroke and dementia, depending on where you look. But it won't always be that way. We just need to take every little win where we can. And wait for the dumbpocalypse to blow over. :)

People in the world all hear who we are. We are in a time where a good many choose not to listen. That isn't on us to try and shout louder. We just have to hold on until the screams of idiots die down.

Just my opinion. :)

I've been fighting this battle for roughly 14 or 15 years. It would be nice if it changes but unfortunately it shows no signs of doing so.

I think the most powerful thing I have done is weed people out of my life that just waste my energy.

I was talking to a guy I really thought was bf material for about 12 years. He was all cool and accepting at first but then he suddenly decided to become all conservative. Basically he now believes things at the "facile level" you described.

The people important to me in my life support me and all I can really do is be thankful for that.

I can see both sides of this. I agree that we need a more concise term for medical practitioners, but we have that already. In the area of law, it should not be a factor. Instead of listing all of the possible areas where discrimination is not allowed, i.e., employment, housing, education, etc. ad nauseam, it would be simpler and more inclusive to just state, Thou Shalt Not Discriminate. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of the "protected characteristic". The concept of equality is built into government constitutions in many countries.

Within our own community, the LGBTQI2S+++ intends to include everyone who is not cis and heterosexual.  That, in itself, is divisive and creates an us/them. So it is partially our own fault.

Do we really need to spell it all out? The LGB part is a sexual preference, not a gender identity. Yet, for the sake of inclusivity, we lump everyone together. That is, everyone except... them. But why do we need to classify everyone based upon some characteristic that is widely recognized as a fact and just part of being human? For medical and scientific reasons, sure, it makes sense. There are valid reasons for it.

But within the workings of society, I see no need for it. Racial profiling was/is very common in law enforcement for identification purposes. Then it was abused, and in many areas the practice was banned. It was still used for identification, but training was provided to mitigate the appearance of racial bias.

I think, as stated before, we may reach a point where society doesn't care what is between your legs or how you dress. It will become unimportant. That will involve educating the masses that the statistics show that we are a very small part of the population, and not the ones committing the offenses being alleged. The media could help with that, but they will fan the flames in whatever direction the wind is currently blowing.

Just like the bias in the past against blacks, Latinos, Asians, Muslims, and Jews, this too shall pass. There will always be bigots, but hopefully, over time, they will become the minority. I think we just want to see that happen in our lifetimes. It may not.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 03:45:22 AMOkay.... I'm gender fluid. Am I going to be a "differentiated entity" now?

Well strictly speaking that in itself differentiates you. I don't consider myself gender fluid. And that's absolutely fine to be affirmed and true to you, which is what this is all about surely?

I'm not in fact suggesting new terms (magical is a bit snarky if I may say so?). I'm saying that we need to unravel the term 'biological sex'. In fact, unless I expressed it particularly badly, it's the opposite of what you're saying. I am saying the very opposite of narrowing it down. It should be broadened.

Part of the problem at the moment is that 'biological sex' is used in a reductionist way: it's incredibly simplistic to reduce it down to solely about XX/XY or genitalia. As we all on here know, even the biology of sex at birth contains a myriad of other aspects, physical and mental, that should widen, not narrow, its definition.

If we can bring into the 'biological sex' equation such components as hormones, alleles, polymorphisms, mutations, enzymes, lipids, receptors, neural pathways, aromatisation, as well as identity and self-understanding (to state just a few) then we can counter the reductionist fascism which runs along the lines of  'if you were born with a penis you will never be a woman' (or the converse which is almost never discussed).

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 13, 2025, 09:58:59 AMBut why do we need to classify everyone based upon some characteristic that is widely recognized as a fact and just part of being human? For medical and scientific reasons, sure, it makes sense. There are valid reasons for it.

I have great sympathy with this.

However, even here you have slipped into accepting something as a 'fact' when I'm suggesting it isn't. My strong contention is that the biology of sex is a LOT more complex than the current zeitgeist thinks it is. Biology is the study of living organisms and we are extremely complex. It's blindingly obvious to me that 'sex' is much more complex than binary reductionism, and that's regardless of the 'fact' that I have a chromosome mutation.

We have ceded the differentiation between sex and gender when we really should not have done. The net result is to hand a nuclear weapon to the likes of TERFs, who are detonating it against us.

TRIGGER WARNING. RAPE. ABUSE. The final paragraph contains a description which is upsetting.

Quote from: CosmicJoke on May 13, 2025, 09:48:37 AMI've been fighting this battle for roughly 14 or 15 years. It would be nice if it changes but unfortunately it shows no signs of doing so.

I think the most powerful thing I have done is weed people out of my life that just waste my energy.

I was talking to a guy I really thought was bf material for about 12 years. He was all cool and accepting at first but then he suddenly decided to become all conservative. Basically he now believes things at the "facile level" you described.

The people important to me in my life support me and all I can really do is be thankful for that.

TRIGGER WARNING. RAPE. ABUSE. The final paragraph contains a description which is upsetting.

I've had exactly the same thing. A friend from school days who began lurching to the Right. He started leaving me audios that sounded more and more like Tommy Robinson (a UK Far Right thug), lots of latent homophobia, transphobia, and then anti-migrant racism in the mix too. A couple of months ago I asked him straight if he thought anyone born into a male body could ever truly be a woman. His response was that on a biological level, 'NO'. I've cut him out from my life completely, blocking him.

Incidentally, this is a guy who travels around the world having sex with vulnerable and trafficked prostitutes and who once told me he raped an 11 yr old girl in the Philippines. Are these the kind of people who claim to be all about 'protecting women's spaces' ...???

See, the problem with what we have allowed to happen with the lazy deployment of these terms is that those against us use it to say that:

Biology of sex is a given and unalterable binary fact
Gender is a choice

My contention is that this is ridiculously simplistic.

The wedge we let them create here is the root of a lot of our problems. Well, that and pure hatred of course.

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 13, 2025, 03:39:06 AMOf course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Go on, give it a shot anyway. What term do you suggest? Who would it extend to? Who gets to decide?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 11:13:30 AMGo on, give it a shot anyway. What term do you suggest? Who would it extend to? Who gets to decide?

Hugs, Devlyn

For the good of the Forum, and to keep Tills very worthy thread on track, I don't want to start a debate on individual proposed terms. I am hoping for others to chime in with their respectful comments and ideas, even if they don't agree with mine.

Expanding the understanding of "Biological Sex" appeals to me, but I also know that the general community have very short attention spans, especially for things that don't directly affect them. I am reading an article in a local newspaper about a woman who spent $45k to choose the Gender of her baby, and my daughter recently went to a Gender reveal party, an my initial reaction is 'how do they know the internal identity a foetus will have?', but of course, the common understanding is that Gender refers to the observable genitals at birth. I realised some time ago that the general public has this common understanding of Gender, so when we say we have a different Gender to our Sex, it confuses people, and they believe we are refusing to see what is between our legs.

This confusion is not only with lay people, but has infected the medical profession, judges, teachers, and others who shape our lives. Trying to argue for a better understanding is fruitless until we have the tools with which to accomplish it, and appropriate and concise language is the starting point. We don't need to solve this here in this thread, but to consider Tills topic and discuss ways forward.

I hope this can be done in a spirit of respect and with the topic in mind.

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 13, 2025, 07:17:08 PMI realised some time ago that the general public has this common understanding of Gender, so when we say we have a different Gender to our Sex, it confuses people, and they believe we are refusing to see what is between our legs.

Yes, This! 💗

Conservative politicians often conflate sex and gender when attempting to refute our experiences and claims. This misunderstanding or misrepresentation feeds public confusion, especially when we speak about having a gender identity different from our assigned sex at birth.


~ Lilis 🫂

Great points @Allie Jayne and @Lilis

My niece had a gender reveal party the other day and I did say to their mum (my sister), 'of course, I don't agree with parental gender imposition'. I put it lightheartedly but underneath was the pain of my mother and father forcing me from the word go to be something that I knew I wasn't.

I'm also very interested in the important point @Lori Dee made previously along the lines of why we need categorisations at all? Generally, as she so eloquently illustrated with regard to racial profiling, these categories are used to subjugate others, especially those who are different: to legitimise hatred, bigotry, and bias.

There's something similar in anthropology and sociology which Edward Said termed 'Orientalism.' It's the tendency to lump together disparate and diverse peoples under umbrella terms like 'Hinduism' or even 'Asia' and 'Africa'. He exposed that was really going on was a form of imperialism: a way in which white western academics were inventing terms in order to subjugate and oppress. In other words, we categorise in order to crush and control.

Right, it's 4.15 am and that's a bit early for a brain-stretch ;)


(Edward Said and Orientalism, in case you're interested. I think it's pertinent to what's going on here in our world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book) )

On topic:

BBC Responds to Complaint over its Assertion that Biological Sex Can't be Changed:

https://www.thepinknews.com/2025/05/14/bbc-biological-sex-complaint-response/

I just saw this and it demonstrates how the conflated terminology creates argument. The "all gender" rest room is meant to service all identities, but Mace reads it as meaning sexes. Surely if we could clear up this confusion a lot of misunderstanding could be erased.

Hugs,

Allie

(https://i.imgur.com/fMdDa34.png)

What a sad state of affairs that someone finds it necessary to post on social media their take on an inclusive restroom as some sort of noteworthy or newsworthy item.

Fiddling while Rome burns.

I'm sure Mace has male and female bathroom signs in her house...

Edit: I guarantee that she used an all gender bathroom shortly before being aghast over an all gender bathroom. Complete horse hooey.

I would venture that it isn't that people don't "get it". It's that people don't want to "get it". Doesn't matter what words you use. You can't educate some people into acceptance. Someone is either okay with who we are, or they aren't. And the world is doing its utmost to make sure everyone comes down on the side of "aren't".

So, as Benjamin Franklin famously said:

"We must all, indeed, hang together or, most assuredly, we shall hang separately."

Maybe we need to focus on teaching people that different doesn't equal bad. And that goes for a lot of things in life. Not just gender identity.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 18, 2025, 04:02:49 AMI would venture that it isn't that people don't "get it". It's that people don't want to "get it". Doesn't matter what words you use. You can't educate some people into acceptance. Someone is either okay with who we are, or they aren't. And the world is doing its utmost to make sure everyone comes down on the side of "aren't".

So, as Benjamin Franklin famously said:

"We must all, indeed, hang together or, most assuredly, we shall hang separately."

Maybe we need to focus on teaching people that different doesn't equal bad. And that goes for a lot of things in life. Not just gender identity.

^^^^^^ This.

No amount of "The doctor concisely, precisely, and politely said I'm legitimately transgender" is going to influence a bigot.

Hugs, Devlyn

Sorry for the mis-spelling of one of the US's most influential people, Dev. I have fixed it. Darn mechanical keyboard doesn't play well with long nails :embarrassed: .

You seem to have got this stuff back when the US was founded. And most of the world, honestly. It's only recently that people have gotten nasty. Which is massively ironic, considering how much information and brave people are out there.

I've edited my post to reflect your correction, which I hadn't even noticed to be honest. I'm sure ol' Benny isn't too upset.  ;D

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 18, 2025, 03:29:13 AMI just saw this and it demonstrates how the conflated terminology creates argument. The "all gender" rest room is meant to service all identities, but Mace reads it as meaning sexes. Surely if we could clear up this confusion a lot of misunderstanding could be erased.

Hugs,

Allie

(https://i.imgur.com/fMdDa34.png)

Definition of "all":  'every one', 'the complete number or amount', or 'the whole'.
Therefore, "all" includes only one, or two, or any number.

Stay in school, kids. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

We are in a hearts and minds on the ground and in our individual "sphere of influence" battle.  Making friends and allies on that smaller personal level is something each of can attempt.  Appeals to authority have a weak link as authorities come and go. 

Whilst I agree that you're not readily going to correct bigotry, I think education is important. Or, rather, I am now of the view that we need good minds to tackle this narrow definition of 'biological sex'.

The mainstream debate won't start to change until we unpick the reductionism at an academic level. That has always been the way, with every hot topic throughout history. Mind you, I'm an academic so probably would claim that  :D

I do feel that we let this slip. We ceded the ground without seeing how they were going to weaponise it.

There's one other saving grace though. Because they have wound this issue so tightly into the coils of other right-wing bigotry, when their whole world unravels - which it will - we will have our chance. The likes of Putin-Trump-Farage will die. Transgender life won't.

The mainstream will look back on this time as one of reactionary politics.

I'm just putting the finishing touches to a book I've written which contains this theme amongst others. It may not shake the foundations but it might help a little.

My first book was lucky enough to be a bestseller in the Uk and they're making it into a film so there could be a little traction from that publicity.

I just think we have to fight back with our minds and bodies, in a non-violent way of course.

xx

Murphy's Law # 37:

"Reform always comes from below. The man with four aces never asks for a new deal."

Corollary:

"A Smith & Wesson beats four aces."

 ;D

I really do think that with this issue reform has to begin with an intellectual unpicking of the narrow reductionist definition of 'biological sex.'

It's all over the internet: that's how people now see it. The unalterable binary definition of biology.

Until we demonstrate why that's narrowly-conceived and wrong, we will not regain the high ground. If it goes hand-in-glove with a groundswell of [trans] female defiant living then so much the better :) But we need both imho.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 18, 2025, 11:35:58 PMI really do think that with this issue reform has to begin with an intellectual unpicking of the narrow reductionist definition of 'biological sex.'

It's all over the internet: that's how people now see it. The unalterable binary definition of biology.

Until we demonstrate why that's narrowly-conceived and wrong, we will not regain the high ground. If it goes hand-in-glove with a groundswell of [trans] female defiant living then so much the better :) But we need both imho.

xx

< puts Smith & Wesson back into its holster. >  ;D

Quote from: Tills on May 18, 2025, 11:35:58 PMI really do think that with this issue reform has to begin with an intellectual unpicking of the narrow reductionist definition of 'biological sex.'

It's all over the internet: that's how people now see it. The unalterable binary definition of biology.

Until we demonstrate why that's narrowly-conceived and wrong, we will not regain the high ground. If it goes hand-in-glove with a groundswell of [trans] female defiant living then so much the better :) But we need both imho.

xx

I agree Tills, but I think the concise re definition is more complex that the general public could absorb, so it would need to start in legal context, then medical, and then use those as a base for challenges against the current improper use.

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 19, 2025, 01:59:50 AMI agree Tills, but I think the concise re definition is more complex that the general public could absorb, so it would need to start in legal context, then medical, and then use those as a base for challenges against the current improper use.

Hugs,

Allie

The problem there is that you would need to invent terminology that is sufficiently different from common terms used today to prevent association with the old terminology. But at the same time, the new words need to be clear enough in meaning to prevent confusion by the general populace. People reject what they don't understand.

I think the only other option is to just redefine what we have... and people will still associate it with the old definitions that they know, and reject what they don't understand.

Round and round we go.

Yep, true @Lori Dee

As someone mentioned up thread, 'gender reveal' parties being a case in point, when they really mean 'sex reveal' according to the current TERF delineation.

It's a mess, isn't it?!

In some ways I quite like the idea of blurring the meanings more and more. Anything to undo this artificial distinction of 'biological sex.'

And if you are born into a body that you know is incongruent where does that idea come from? Not from pernicious 'gender ideologists' in a school, much as Donald Trump would like to tell you otherwise. In almost every other area of medical science the artificial division of body and mind has been debunked. Why not with gender?

If you have gender incongruence that IS part of your biology of sex.

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 09:01:26 AMIf you have gender incongruence, that is part of your biological sex.

But how do we help the general public to care enough or find the time to learn about something like the BNST?


~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 11:18:09 AMBut how do we help the general public to care enough or find the time to learn about something like the BNST?


~ Lilis 💗

I think that most people do not care about things that do not directly affect them. Most people do not know a transgender person because we are such a small segment of the population. There are people with open minds who see that transgender rights are human rights, and that affects them too.

That almost implies that the only way to educate the masses is through activism, but that is a two-edged sword. Some will outright reject and criticize, while others will think, "Hmm, they have a point." Education in schools is effective, but the Administration knows this and is making efforts to shut that down. This is also the reason behind book bans at school and public libraries.

That leaves the media, but it is difficult to get someone interested enough to pay attention if it is not something that interests them.

BNST.....oh boy, here we go. :laugh:

I'll be back later to say "Saw that coming a mile away"  :laugh:

I'm with Sephirah's suggestion lower down this thread that 'it's not can't, it's won't.'

Even on Susan's there are people using the phrase 'biological sex' as if it is a firm definition, but it is not, and explaining why it can't be involves more understanding of genetics and biochemistry than someone without the appropriate background can possibly hope to understand. The moment you start talking about stuff like 5α-reductase type 2 enzyme deficiency, people's eyes glaze over and for good reason.

I've a good grasp of why you can't define biological sex and I'm a good communicator, but while it's relatively easy to shatter most people's idea that there could be such a thing as biological sex by highlighting all the edge cases nature throws up, and why healthcare organisations from the UN downward have split sex and gender to account for that, that's not the issue, I think.

To me, the art of reducing discrimination of any sort has always belonged in the fields of compassion and familiarity. There's a lot to learn from the way the gay community patiently educated and recruited champions to make the general public aware that they were just like everyone else. They conducted that campaign on many fronts and although it took decades, they won in the end because they stayed focused.

We've won our campaign too, more or less, with Gen Z and late millennials. We have high profile trans musicians out there making our case every time they pick up a mic. And sure, we also have boomers fighting a rearguard action against any change from the status quo, but they'll only be around for so long.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 19, 2025, 11:27:05 AMI think that most people do not care about things that do not directly affect them. Most people do not know a transgender person because we are such a small segment of the population.

I'm with this. We are a very small minority and the chances of the average person meeting someone who is trans is so small many never will. Yet it is in the nature of social media to amplify clickbait so it provides an echo chamber for people who have an issue with trans. They sound more influential than they are.

Do people in general care? In my experience, not really, and if they do have a problem, it's usually one of adjustment, not one of hatred. We won't swing this one overnight, but there's more sympathy out there than there is condemnation. Look in the wrong places though and it's easy to forget that. And sure things are not good in the US right now, but the current administration will not be there forever, so take heart.

Quote from: Tills on May 13, 2025, 10:46:24 AMBiology of sex is a given and unalterable binary fact
Gender is a choice

Thanks, Tills, Devlyn, and everyone who contributed thus far to this discussion. I'm still a neophyte regarding all things trans and have been following a post began by TanyaG regarding the ambivalence of the relationship between the lesbian and trans communities. Is this related to the TERF agenda or are they separate issues? As Sephirah noted, it seems people are choosing to hate and marginalize. Words like terminology, science, humanity, compassion, etc. have little to do with their choice.   

By chance I posted something else which is relevant to this thread (and maybe to how we should campaign and present ourselves although the last couple of paras are just me speculating about how I would negotiate. It's about something a Norwegian philosopher called Moen wrote about why gay people were misrepresented and I've rarely read anything on this subject put better.

Whatever, it's here and it's a real quick read (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2304173.html#msg2304173).

Believe it or not, Moen's paper was about the ethics of sex work, but that guy really has a fine mind. If anyone wants the reference, I can post it.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 19, 2025, 01:15:08 PMWe are a very small minority and the chances of the average person meeting someone who is trans is so small many never will.

I wonder though.

I suspect this is the enforced view of older western peoples on their citizens. Go to parts of Asia and the Pacific and you see myriads of gender expressions, with people on a spectrum. Catch the MRT or Skytrain in Bangkok and you will see a rich kaleidoscope and you will certainly meet many transgendered people - and I'm not referring to the red light areas. Likewise in places like India, Fiji, and the Philippines - countries where there has long been a recognition of the fluidity of gender - you rub shoulders constantly with a myriad of gender expressions.

Older people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

I've seen so much fluidity amongst youngsters but as David so memorably states in Schitt's Creek:

'It's more about the wine than the label.'

:D

When I lived near Boston one of the guys at the local sub shop was Brazilian. They watched me transition and the Brazilian guy told me that his village back home had lots of T-girls (sic).

I'm living in Spain, a Catholic country. 95% Catholic in fact. Other than one old lady who made the sign of the cross when she saw my wife and I, and  another old lady I smiled at in the bank frowned at me and shook her head  sorrowfully, we've had no problems at all.

The problem only seems to be a problem in places that start with a "United". US, UK, UAE.....

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 02:17:26 PMOlder people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

Gender is a cultural process of soft assembly and so expression varies around the world, that's for sure. Within the west though, it would be rare for most cis people to meet someone who was trans to whom they were not related, or weren't a friend of, more than a few times in their lifetime. I've been interested enough in this to write this post a while back (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249270.msg2283968.html#msg2283968), and it shows you're right, the younger you are, the more likely you are to have met someone who is trans if you live in the west.

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 02:17:26 PMOlder people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

I know several younger than 50 folks who are fired up that it be an XX XY only world.   My daughter's fellow athletes being a loud portion of that sample. There also appears a pronounced difference in private and public speak.  This comes back to my strategy of a hearts and minds approach.  The bully pulpit has changed especially in Texas and the parts of fly-over country I am familiar with.       

Quote from: Devlyn on May 19, 2025, 02:52:51 PMWhen I lived near Boston one of the guys at the local sub shop was Brazilian. They watched me transition and the Brazilian guy told me that his village back home had lots of T-girls (sic).

I'm living in Spain, a Catholic country. 95% Catholic in fact. Other than one old lady who made the sign of the cross when she saw my wife and I, and  another old lady I smiled at in the bank frowned at me and shook her head  sorrowfully, we've had no problems at all.

The problem only seems to be a problem in places that start with a "United". US, UK, UAE.....

Hugs, Devlyn

Love this and that last sentence is brilliant lol - so true  :D