This could just as easily be in the medical section but I want to kick it off here because for many years this has been a political more than a truly scientific football.

A long time ago I recognised the danger we were placing ourselves in by ceding the difference between sex and gender. Or at least, ceding it too easily.

As an academic (former Professor) I've never liked simplistic arguments. They're always wrong. Or, rather, there's always a 'yes, but'. That doesn't sit happily with the internet, where those without the research background, like to pile onto topics and want everything in cut and dried 'yes/no' arguments.

'Biological sex' is complex. Much more complex than, 'but does it have a willy?' which is basically the level to which much of this has descended. It encompasses myriad hormones, alleles, polymorphisms, steroids, glands, and not just simplistic XX or XY reductionism.

Allied to the physical dimensions of 'sex' there is the multi-layered psycho-somatic component, which is just as much a part of biology as a chromosome. TERF's, of course, contend that people who transition male to female are closet abusers. The absurdity, and evidential untruth, of this should have been pulled down long ago. None of us who go through the process of being true to the person we are meant to be do so lightly or in a cavalier manner. It's gruelling and often comes at great cost, be that socially or in other ways.

We need to attack this at the point where they think they are strongest. They aren't, and it isn't. Biological sex is complex. It's much more complex than the facile level to which it has been reduced.

xx

In the past couple of years I have raised on forums that the lack of definitions would be weaponised against us, and while it generated some discussion, there were as many against pushing for more concise definitions as there were for it. Now we are seeing conservative government globally listening to groups like terfs and changing laws to oppress us.

The original meanings of Sex and Gender have been rendered useless over the past 50 years, with even medical publications conflating the two. Our community has been part of this by holding sacred the term 'Transgender', which reads to the broader communities as us changing gender. The WHO tried to improve this by introducing the term 'Gender Incongruent', but while incongruent is a concise, the term gender now is confusing.

We need a new, concise and appropriate term for those of us who suffer incongruence with our birth sex. This will assist in clarifying our position in medicine and law, and make it harder for those who seek to oppress us. But, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 05:36:44 PMBut, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

You are assuming they want to, Allie. Whatever terms you want to put to it... the world these days is a far right, book burning, head-in-the-sand, vilification of people. Coming up with new words won't change that. As sad as it is, I really don't think it will change because we come up with a term more people away from the hateful, orange, suit-wearing, hundred dollar-bill burning elite crowd have it in their heads to try and persecute. You can call our condition whatever you want... but these people only see it as "not born male, or female". And that's what they're trying to push all their laws on.

In my opinion, broader society doesn't matter these days. Broader society voted in all these lunatics who are making these changes to everything. And there's very little they can do for a few years. You made your bed, we have to lie in it.

All I can hope for is that the insanity of these regimes people think they want, show people it's not what they want. And trying to come up with better terms for trans people won't change that. Because it isn't why most people voted. It isn't what they care about. It's what those in power care about. Trans folks don't lower inflation. Don't make your fuel or groceries cheaper. They cannot do that because the world doesn't work that way, so they tap into primal human hatred for difference.

Like the movie Gladiator said 25 years ago. "Distract people and they will love you for it." That's all this is.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2025, 05:50:39 PMYou are assuming they want to, Allie. Whatever terms you want to put to it... the world these days is a far right, book burning, head-in-the-sand, vilification of people. Coming up with new words won't change that. As sad as it is, I really don't think it will change because we come up with a term more people away from the hateful, orange, suit-wearing, hundred dollar-bill burning elite crowd have it in their heads to try and persecute. You can call our condition whatever you want... but these people only see it as "not born male, or female". And that's what they're trying to push all their laws on.

In my opinion, broader society doesn't matter these days. Broader society voted in all these lunatics who are making these changes to everything. And there's very little they can do for a few years. You made your bed, we have to lie in it.

All I can hope for is that the insanity of these regimes people think they want, show people it's not what they want. And trying to come up with better terms for trans people won't change that. Because it isn't why most people voted. It isn't what they care about. It's what those in power care about. Trans folks don't lower inflation. Don't make your fuel or groceries cheaper. They cannot do that because the world doesn't work that way, so they tap into primal human hatred for difference.

Like the movie Gladiator said 25 years ago. "Distract people and they will love you for it." That's all this is.

Sephira, the world is a bit more than the US and UK. Germany, Canada, and Australia have recently held elections which went against conservatives, and there will be other countries take this path. I don't want to propose a new term, but to encourage our community to look at what is happening to it every day, and decide that we need to push for change.

in 2022, our Conservative Party made anti trans policy an election issue, and because of support in the broader community, it cost that party the election. Our community had been portrayed positively by celebrities and tv shows, and the electorate responded. So I have seen the effect of positive public opinion, and I am confident it would help our present position.

But, you keep doing what you are doing, but don't expect to get anything other than what you are currently getting.

Hugs,

Allie

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 07:08:43 PMSephira, the world is a bit more than the US and UK. Germany, Canada, and Australia have recently held elections which went against conservatives, and there will be other countries take this path. I don't want to propose a new term, but to encourage our community to look at what is happening to it every day, and decide that we need to push for change.

in 2022, our Conservative Party made anti trans policy an election issue, and because of support in the broader community, it cost that party the election. Our community had been portrayed positively by celebrities and tv shows, and the electorate responded. So I have seen the effect of positive public opinion, and I am confident it would help our present position.

But, you keep doing what you are doing, but don't expect to get anything other than what you are currently getting.

Hugs,

Allie

I want to agree with you, Allie, and I hope you're right. I really do. We just had local elections in the UK. And the Reform party did better than anyone. These are the people whose leader is basically Trump's best friend. Nigel Farage. They stole votes from both major parties here. And got their first elected mayor. They have insane, bonkers, massively far right policies. People wanted it. I think they were probably drugged but they wanted it.

Allie, what the biggest countries in the world do, it filters down into other countries. That's how it's always been and how it will always be. Change has to come from the top. Trust me I know what you're saying. And I know why it might be a good idea. I just... I don't think it will matter. You can't change people who don't want to be changed, just by using different words. You just can't. You have to wait for people to realise that "You know what? This is kind of nasty." And that always comes when hatred doesn't work. When it doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anyone else's life better.

When you run out of people to blame for how crap things are... you realise maybe we shouldn't be blaming other people at all. And that's when it all flips. Like it has done in the past, and will continue to do.

For our newer members that possibly are not entirely aware of
what the term TERF entails, please continue reading:

Reference:     GLAAD Media Reference Guide – 11th Edition
                                      https://glaad.org/reference/

      Glossary of Terms: Transgender
https://glaad.org/reference/trans-terms

TERF and Gender Critical
Terms used to describe anti-trans activists who seek to limit full equality for transgender people
and exclude trans women from women's spaces.
The term TERF is an acronym for "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist."

IMPORTANT NOTE:  "Susan's Place Forum policy"
- Posting any topic or making any post that directly implies that Trans people are not
  really men (FTM) or women (MTF), is not allowed on the Susan's Place Forum.

Danielle [Northern Star Girl]
  The Forum Administrator    Email: alaskandanielle@yahoo.com

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Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 12, 2025, 05:36:44 PMIn the past couple of years I have raised on forums that the lack of definitions would be weaponised against us, and while it generated some discussion, there were as many against pushing for more concise definitions as there were for it. Now we are seeing conservative government globally listening to groups like terfs and changing laws to oppress us.

The original meanings of Sex and Gender have been rendered useless over the past 50 years, with even medical publications conflating the two. Our community has been part of this by holding sacred the term 'Transgender', which reads to the broader communities as us changing gender. The WHO tried to improve this by introducing the term 'Gender Incongruent', but while incongruent is a concise, the term gender now is confusing.

We need a new, concise and appropriate term for those of us who suffer incongruence with our birth sex. This will assist in clarifying our position in medicine and law, and make it harder for those who seek to oppress us. But, unless our community can get behind this, how can we expect broader society to find a better definition for us?

Hugs,

Allie

I totally agree Allie.

Thanks @Northern Star Girl for that. I should have explained the term, even though it makes me shudder

I see what you're saying @Sephirah but we should surely stand up to this? I think @Allie is correct that getting these terms defined more clearly would help greatly.

It would help our cause to elaborate on and explain the complexities and nuances of 'biological sex'. At the moment it is being pushed out in the media as if the term is self-explanatory. And it is, almost literally, at the level of 'does it have a penis or vagina?'

Contemporary discourse on most topics is of a generally poor standard, and influenced by so much toxicity and falsehood. I mean, you're both right in that the terms within the transgender 'debate' are used so loosely and in a weaponised manner to suit other pre-determined agendas.

It's very early in the morning and I may not have expressed this particularly well

xx

What would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 02:31:04 AMWhat would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

I agree with Devlyn. Words don't make change. Change makes change. It has to come from inside people to just... not be hateful towards other people. Which to some seems like a no-brainer... but to the no-brainers is kind of a hard thing.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 02:31:04 AMWhat would this magical new term be?

How would a magical new term make it harder for people to discriminate against us?

Is the magical new term going to include all of us....or just the True Transsexuals™?

Of course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Okay.... I'm gender fluid. Am I going to be a "differentiated entity" now?

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 13, 2025, 03:39:06 AMOf course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Allie, I know what you're saying but it isn't confusion. At this point people get it. More people than ever get it. They just choose to discriminate. And changing what words you use won't change that. People choose to discriminate because people above them tell them it's okay to discriminate. We have gone back to 1984.

You can't educate people who don't want to be educated. You can't teach people who don't want to learn.

What you can do is foster goodwill in people who want to support us. All of us. And wait for this right wing idiotstorm to blow over. And hold on until this agenda of hate leads to what we all know it will lead to. People no better off with no one left to blame. When the push to remove immigrants doesn't work. When the push to marginalise parts of society you don't like doesn't work... when every hot coal of anger you try to to throw at the world doesn't work... the only thing left is understanding. It will come because it will come.

We don't need to educate people, Allie. Not these days. Not in the way you're thinking of. The world is a crucible of information. We just need to be patient to the point that people choose to learn because they are sick of all the hatred. And sick of all the hatemongers. I don't know how long that will take, because the world is seemingly suffering from heatstroke and dementia, depending on where you look. But it won't always be that way. We just need to take every little win where we can. And wait for the dumbpocalypse to blow over.

People in the world all hear who we are. We are in a time where a good many choose not to listen. That isn't on us to try and shout louder. We just have to hold on until the screams of idiots die down.

Just my opinion.

I've been fighting this battle for roughly 14 or 15 years. It would be nice if it changes but unfortunately it shows no signs of doing so.

I think the most powerful thing I have done is weed people out of my life that just waste my energy.

I was talking to a guy I really thought was bf material for about 12 years. He was all cool and accepting at first but then he suddenly decided to become all conservative. Basically he now believes things at the "facile level" you described.

The people important to me in my life support me and all I can really do is be thankful for that.

I can see both sides of this. I agree that we need a more concise term for medical practitioners, but we have that already. In the area of law, it should not be a factor. Instead of listing all of the possible areas where discrimination is not allowed, i.e., employment, housing, education, etc. ad nauseam, it would be simpler and more inclusive to just state, Thou Shalt Not Discriminate. Discrimination is discrimination regardless of the "protected characteristic". The concept of equality is built into government constitutions in many countries.

Within our own community, the LGBTQI2S+++ intends to include everyone who is not cis and heterosexual.  That, in itself, is divisive and creates an us/them. So it is partially our own fault.

Do we really need to spell it all out? The LGB part is a sexual preference, not a gender identity. Yet, for the sake of inclusivity, we lump everyone together. That is, everyone except... them. But why do we need to classify everyone based upon some characteristic that is widely recognized as a fact and just part of being human? For medical and scientific reasons, sure, it makes sense. There are valid reasons for it.

But within the workings of society, I see no need for it. Racial profiling was/is very common in law enforcement for identification purposes. Then it was abused, and in many areas the practice was banned. It was still used for identification, but training was provided to mitigate the appearance of racial bias.

I think, as stated before, we may reach a point where society doesn't care what is between your legs or how you dress. It will become unimportant. That will involve educating the masses that the statistics show that we are a very small part of the population, and not the ones committing the offenses being alleged. The media could help with that, but they will fan the flames in whatever direction the wind is currently blowing.

Just like the bias in the past against blacks, Latinos, Asians, Muslims, and Jews, this too shall pass. There will always be bigots, but hopefully, over time, they will become the minority. I think we just want to see that happen in our lifetimes. It may not.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 13, 2025, 03:45:22 AMOkay.... I'm gender fluid. Am I going to be a "differentiated entity" now?

Well strictly speaking that in itself differentiates you. I don't consider myself gender fluid. And that's absolutely fine to be affirmed and true to you, which is what this is all about surely?

I'm not in fact suggesting new terms (magical is a bit snarky if I may say so?). I'm saying that we need to unravel the term 'biological sex'. In fact, unless I expressed it particularly badly, it's the opposite of what you're saying. I am saying the very opposite of narrowing it down. It should be broadened.

Part of the problem at the moment is that 'biological sex' is used in a reductionist way: it's incredibly simplistic to reduce it down to solely about XX/XY or genitalia. As we all on here know, even the biology of sex at birth contains a myriad of other aspects, physical and mental, that should widen, not narrow, its definition.

If we can bring into the 'biological sex' equation such components as hormones, alleles, polymorphisms, mutations, enzymes, lipids, receptors, neural pathways, aromatisation, as well as identity and self-understanding (to state just a few) then we can counter the reductionist fascism which runs along the lines of  'if you were born with a penis you will never be a woman' (or the converse which is almost never discussed).

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 13, 2025, 09:58:59 AMBut why do we need to classify everyone based upon some characteristic that is widely recognized as a fact and just part of being human? For medical and scientific reasons, sure, it makes sense. There are valid reasons for it.

I have great sympathy with this.

However, even here you have slipped into accepting something as a 'fact' when I'm suggesting it isn't. My strong contention is that the biology of sex is a LOT more complex than the current zeitgeist thinks it is. Biology is the study of living organisms and we are extremely complex. It's blindingly obvious to me that 'sex' is much more complex than binary reductionism, and that's regardless of the 'fact' that I have a chromosome mutation.

We have ceded the differentiation between sex and gender when we really should not have done. The net result is to hand a nuclear weapon to the likes of TERFs, who are detonating it against us.

TRIGGER WARNING. RAPE. ABUSE. The final paragraph contains a description which is upsetting.

Quote from: CosmicJoke on May 13, 2025, 09:48:37 AMI've been fighting this battle for roughly 14 or 15 years. It would be nice if it changes but unfortunately it shows no signs of doing so.

I think the most powerful thing I have done is weed people out of my life that just waste my energy.

I was talking to a guy I really thought was bf material for about 12 years. He was all cool and accepting at first but then he suddenly decided to become all conservative. Basically he now believes things at the "facile level" you described.

The people important to me in my life support me and all I can really do is be thankful for that.

TRIGGER WARNING. RAPE. ABUSE. The final paragraph contains a description which is upsetting.

I've had exactly the same thing. A friend from school days who began lurching to the Right. He started leaving me audios that sounded more and more like Tommy Robinson (a UK Far Right thug), lots of latent homophobia, transphobia, and then anti-migrant racism in the mix too. A couple of months ago I asked him straight if he thought anyone born into a male body could ever truly be a woman. His response was that on a biological level, 'NO'. I've cut him out from my life completely, blocking him.

Incidentally, this is a guy who travels around the world having sex with vulnerable and trafficked prostitutes and who once told me he raped an 11 yr old girl in the Philippines. Are these the kind of people who claim to be all about 'protecting women's spaces' ...

See, the problem with what we have allowed to happen with the lazy deployment of these terms is that those against us use it to say that:

Biology of sex is a given and unalterable binary fact
Gender is a choice

My contention is that this is ridiculously simplistic.

The wedge we let them create here is the root of a lot of our problems. Well, that and pure hatred of course.

Quote from: Allie Jayne on May 13, 2025, 03:39:06 AMOf course, I don't believe in magic. New terminology should be developed by those best qualified, but we should be pushing them to action. The confusion between Sex and Gender is the basis of anti trans rhetoric, so more concise terminology can only help our case. More concise terminology would likely differentiate the entities under the Transgender banner, but not necessarily eliminate an umbrella term.

Let's face it, what we are doing now is simply not working. And not because the current oppression is just annoying, people in our community are living in fear, being forced to leave their homes to seek sanctuary elsewhere, and likely worse outcomes. There isn't much good news on the horizon, and nobody is coming to our aid. How bad does it need to get before we do something to change things?

Hugs,

Allie

Go on, give it a shot anyway. What term do you suggest? Who would it extend to? Who gets to decide?

Hugs, Devlyn