Susan's Place Transgender Resources

 Maybe this should be posted in Bathroom News, but it's not a legal issue. Many times I've attended CD, Trans social events, gals out in public with supportive SO's or spouses. Usually just a fun night out, dressing up, and other wives to meet with.
 Till last meeting. While answering natures call, someone in the stall next me came in and peed standing up.
For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would go through the bother to dress as female and pee as a man. In the woman's washroom! Even though I was done, I wouldn't leave the stall till I heard the main door shut. Quite often, I've shared the facilities with Cd's. Although I really 'know', it's part of accepting their desires. Do your business, wash hands and check make up. All part of being a woman. But to announce yourself as male by standing up to pee is an intrusion on the privacy of all women.

 Eileen

I applaud your support for your cross-dressing SO, Eileen. And do not doubt your mortification at the 'washroom incident.' Ironically, one of my (many) ex-wives stood up to urinate in public restrooms. She was terrified of whatever someone else might have left behind on the toilet seat. As Donald Rumsfeld famously said, "Gender is messy." I'm old. Maybe he was talking about something else, but gender is messy. I present male when I'm in public, but I sit down to urinate. Nothing to do with gender identity, but prostate health. I hope I'm not offending any of the 'real' males when I do.

Thanks Mrs. Oliphant.
 My husband usually sits while at home, it's a lot less messy. He also had some medical issues some time back, using the stall instead of a urinal was less stressful Don't sit in the urinal. ;D
Public washrooms are disgusting, therefore many women hover. A tricky maneuver if there is nothing to hold on to.
Careful to not fill your panties.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on June 13, 2025, 09:07:33 PMI present male when I'm in public, but I sit down to urinate. Nothing to do with gender identity, but prostate health. I hope I'm not offending any of the 'real' males when I do.

There was a fun survey recently and about half of German men sit down to pee if they get the chance. It's a common behaviour but guess what, standing to pee is heavily scripted. Best thing to do with the script is flush it away with everything else :)

Quote from: Eileen on June 14, 2025, 07:23:43 AMPublic washrooms are disgusting, therefore many women hover. A tricky maneuver if there is nothing to hold on to.

A friend of ours runs a museum in the boonies in Canada and she had us helpless over tales of how many broken toilet seats they get. It took em ages to discover it was because some women were standing on the seats and squatting down. Until the penny dropped they couldn't work out why they kept finding footprints on the plastic!

Maybe they need to retrofit the ladies room for some squatting toilets like they have in Japan?

Quote from: Maid Marion on June 14, 2025, 08:34:27 AMMaybe they need to retrofit the ladies room for some squatting toilets like they have in Japan?

This may well be it. Mind, I have another friend who ran a guest house and they say the creative possibilities that exist for wrecking toilets are limitless :)

 In many cultures, squatting over a hole in the ground is common. So, standing on a toilet seems reasonable.
But let's not get off subject here. My Sweetie does not want to be accepted as CD in public, she wants to be assumed as a woman. Not all, but most CD's want to pass as a woman. As a genetic woman, I'm sure I've been oblivious to the true nature of many women I've encountered all my life, because they behave as women.

 As mentioned before, this was a CD and spouse event. I knew the gals in the ladies room were men dressed as women. I've only met these people as women, so it's easy to accept them as women. Once even helped a girl who had the back of her skirt tucked into her pantyhose!

 Though I barely understand the desire for a man to present as female, it's more than the clothing. Affecting the mannerisms of femineity completes the experience.
 Except for Mrs. Oliphant's ex (must have made a mess, how does a woman aim?) woman do not pee in public toilets standing up. It spoils the whole illusion. That person, that night, announced that he is a man peeing in the woman's washroom. It's just wrong.

 Eileen

Quote from: Eileen on June 15, 2025, 08:35:00 AMThough I barely understand the desire for a man to present as female, it's more than the clothing. Affecting the mannerisms of femineity completes the experience.

QuoteExcept for Mrs. Oliphant's ex (must have made a mess, how does a woman aim?) woman do not pee in public toilets standing up. It spoils the whole illusion. That person, that night, announced that he is a man peeing in the woman's washroom.

QuoteIt's just wrong.

Hi Eileen,

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

I just wanted to gently offer a different view.

I don't see crossdressing or gender expression as an "illusion."

For many, it's a meaningful and authentic way to express themselves, and sometimes even part of a deeper journey with gender identity. Referring to it as an illusion can unintentionally dismiss the reality and diversity of people's experiences.

I also feel that focusing on how someone uses the bathroom, such as whether they stand or sit, can cross into personal territory.

In my opinion those behaviors often reflect someone's physical needs more than their identity and may not be a fair measure of who they are.


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Eileen on June 15, 2025, 08:35:00 AMExcept for Mrs. Oliphant's ex (must have made a mess, how does a woman aim?) woman do not pee in public toilets standing up. It spoils the whole illusion. That person, that night, announced that he is a man peeing in the woman's washroom. It's just wrong.

You've made me think, Eileen! You know, I worked for 25 years in a practice with mixed toilets and half the time it was a complete surprise who was in the cubicle next to me when they came out!

I think the word she meant was not "illusion" but "immersion". That was how I understood it.

Sometimes it is simply better to use a private, one person bathroom when out, for numerous reasons.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 15, 2025, 03:05:13 PMI think the word she meant was not "illusion" but "immersion". That was how I understood it.

That's a thoughtful way to put it, Lori.

'Immersion" definitely captures what many people are seeking, a way to feel fully themselves in the moment.

I appreciate that lens. 💓


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: TanyaG on June 15, 2025, 03:04:17 PMYou've made me think, Eileen! You know, I worked for 25 years in a practice with mixed toilets and half the time it was a complete surprise who was in the cubicle next to me when they came out!

Hahaha, I love this, Tanya, your story made me smile.

Yeah, sometimes we never really know who's next to us in those moments, and maybe we don't need to.


~ Lilis 💓🌷

Quote from: Eileen on June 15, 2025, 08:35:00 AMExcept for Mrs. Oliphant's ex (must have made a mess, how does a woman aim?) woman do not pee in public toilets standing up

My ex and all the women who left footprints on the toilet seats in Germany (or wherever according to Tanya). I confess, Eileen, I never observed my wife in the midst of this particular behavior, I merely too her at her word. But, in my experience, I have never seen a 'we aim to please..." sign in a woman's restroom. I understand some of what you're experiencing. When I told my sister a few weeks ago I had an appointment to begin hormone replacement therapy, she begged me to wait until my next life to become a 'real' woman. And she's one of my few supporters outside Susan's.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on June 15, 2025, 04:12:25 PMWhen I told my sister a few weeks ago I had an appointment to begin hormone replacement therapy, she begged me to wait until my next life to become a 'real' woman.

I would argue that you already are a woman. The HRT is to replace the hormones that your body is not producing on its own.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 15, 2025, 04:15:06 PMI would argue that you already are a woman.

Thanks, Lori. Your words meant much to me. And I would offer the same argument. My sister, like Eileen and so many others on the outside looking in have great difficulty identifying with, well, our asserted identity. I am more than willing to meet them more than halfway as long as they're willing to meet me anywhere at all. Again, thanks so much.

 I fully appreciate the opinions of others who are living a life I'll never truly know about. I mean the inner feelings or trauma felt over a life time of being told there's something wrong with you. There are female attributes that need to be expressed, for some, just a little while now and then. As do my Sweetie and some of her girlfriends.
 Yes, immersed in their female personality, the illusion I speak of is how the public sees you. In this area, there are few facilities other than male or female. Choose one. I just believe that dressed as a woman, one should behave as a woman. There are no physical needs that would prevent a man dressed as female to sit to pee, any more than any other woman. What about big potty, #2. Bet he sits for that.

 I understand that many responses are all too willing to make excuses for every possibility. It's incidents like this that lead to bathroom laws that are discriminatory and impossible to enforce. The solution is simple, when dressed as a woman, act like a woman. Sit down to pee. Women do not want a man in their washroom.

 Eileen

Quote from: Eileen on June 15, 2025, 06:07:48 PMI fully appreciate the opinions of others who are living a life I'll never truly know about. I mean the inner feelings or trauma felt over a life time of being told there's something wrong with you. There are female attributes that need to be expressed, for some, just a little while now and then. As do my Sweetie and some of her girlfriends.
 Yes, immersed in their female personality, the illusion I speak of is how the public sees you. In this area, there are few facilities other than male or female. Choose one. I just believe that dressed as a woman, one should behave as a woman. There are no physical needs that would prevent a man dressed as female to sit to pee, any more than any other woman. What about big potty, #2. Bet he sits for that.

 I understand that many responses are all too willing to make excuses for every possibility. It's incidents like this that lead to bathroom laws that are discriminatory and impossible to enforce. The solution is simple, when dressed as a woman, act like a woman. Sit down to pee. Women do not want a man in their washroom.

 Eileen

Eileen, I understand you're speaking from your experience as a supportive partner, and I appreciate that.

That said, framing someone's gender expression as a performance that must align with public expectations can be deeply harmful to those of us living this truth every day.

Trans and gender-diverse people do not owe anyone a particular way of moving, dressing, or using the restroom in order to be respected.

I want to be clear!

I dismiss and disapprove of cisnormative, rigid views that dictate how a woman "should" behave based on outdated, binary standards.

Gender is not defined by how someone uses the bathroom, and suggesting otherwise contributes to the very narratives that have historically led to the exclusion, policing, and even violence against trans and gender-nonconforming individuals.

I hope we can move toward deeper empathy and understanding, even when our experiences differ.

~ Lilis 🫂

This is a tough one.  I get that what happens behind the closed stall door next to me is not my business, and I should not lay a performance trip on that person, as long as they don't pee on the seat, or at least wipe it up if they do.

But I do understand the discomfort that Eileen described.  It would make me uncomfortable if someone was standing to pee in the women's washroom.  I think that, for me, the discomfort centres around inflaming the latent transphobia in other people who might be there.

Of course, it would be a non-issue if bathroom stalls had proper walls and doors.

Hi Everyone

I completely understand the discomfort some people have raised here and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that hearing a man peeing while standing in the next stall of a women's restroom is unsettling.  That kind of sound immediately pulls you out of any sense of safety or belonging in that space.  I would definitely feel uncomfortable and I am sure many other women would feel the same.

To me this isn't about identity or gender.  It's about etiquette, decency, courtesy and culture.  If you are in the women's restroom then act like it.  That means sitting down.  That's not just a cultural expectation.  It's a basic courtesy.  Sitting is standard in women's spaces regardless of what someone identifies as.  It's not difficult to understand why that matters to the people already in the room.

More broadly I think this issue points to a failure in the design and maintenance of public toilets in the United States.  The state of any restroom varies widely by location.  Some facilities are spotless others are neglected and unhygienic.  Governments, councils and business's  need to step in and  upgrade their facilities that reflect the realities of modern life.

One option might be to make all restrooms unisex but ensure they offer complete privacy with floor-to-ceiling walls and full doors.  That would remove the ambiguity and reduce the pressure on everyone.

But alongside that people need to be taught how to use toilets respectfully.  Basic hygiene and consideration for the next person using the facility should be expected of everyone.

I don't carry wipes myself but if people are worried about the state of the toilets then they should carry some.  It's a simple way to take responsibility for your own comfort.

These issues are not just about gender or identity.  They are about shared space, etiquette, respect, courtesy and the basics of being clean and mindful toward others.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator

We have to be careful here.

I understand that discomfort is real, but discomfort isn't the same as danger.

Framing someone as 'a man' because of how they pee is not only misgendering, it's a form of social control rooted in cisnormativity.

Trans women and gender-diverse folks don't owe their bodily choices to public scrutiny, especially not in private stalls.

If the solution is better restroom design, let's advocate for that, not for trans and gender-diverse people to make themselves invisible.


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Sarah B on June 15, 2025, 09:22:52 PMTo me this isn't about identity or gender.  It's about etiquette,

Quote from: Lilis on June 15, 2025, 09:43:02 PMFraming someone as 'a man' because of how they pee is not only misgendering, it's a form of social control rooted in cisnormativity.

Like Kathy and Sarah I sympathize with Eileen's discomfort and, for her sake, regret the incident occurred and did my best to express that level of empathy in my initial response. 'Control' seems to be a far more compelling concern than 'etiquette,' and there is no way I can enhance or buttress Lilis' succinct warning for us to proceed cautiously in unraveling all the knots though Tanya's insight was most enlightening. After reading the initial post, I felt as though I was being chastised for an incident that had nothing to do with me or, frankly, any of the wonderful people I've met in the halls of Susan's. Nor did I sense that Eileen expected to confront the perceived 'offender' in these same halls. I am not questioning motivation or doubting sincerity, merely remarking upon my own sadness I feel in regard to this topic. Proper etiquette is important in any private or sensitive environment such as a public restroom. No one is discounting that. But there is also an etiquette in this space and casting stones seems outside those boundaries.   

Quote from: Lilis on June 15, 2025, 03:50:37 PMYeah, sometimes we never really know who's next to us in those moments, and maybe we don't need to.

I agree completely. If we are such slaves to our scripting we end up defining gender by how we pee, we've lost the plot!

Quote from: Sarah B on June 15, 2025, 09:22:52 PMThese issues are not just about gender or identity.  They are about shared space, etiquette, respect, courtesy and the basics of being clean and mindful toward others.

I'd add that those things work both ways, Sarah. I'm a huge proponent of tolerance and non zero-sum thinking; basically if someone is doing something that may not be my personal preference, but which isn't harming anything except my perceptions, then I've taught myself to be fine with it. Let them lives their lives as they wish.

To give an example, my mother was very keen on a certain style of eating. To this day, if someone I'm at table with does not put their cutlery down between mouthfuls, I have to stop myself cringeing. It's a stupid trope, but I must have had so much reinforcement of it as a child, I still have to suppress an urge to shout, 'Don't do that!' :-)

Another. I grew up amidst a bunch of what in retrospect must have been some of the most assertive women on the planet, of which my first girlfriend, Ginny, was a fantastic example. Other girls rode horses, she rode a motorbike and she taught me gender is like clothing. You can wear it like a corset, or you can wear it like a kaftan, or anywhere inbetween but nowhere do the rules say where each person of any gender should set the dial.

A lot of the angst here is experienced by people who have allowed others (or society at large) to set their dial for them and who are having trouble even being able to see where their own sweet point should be, no?

Quote from: TanyaG on June 16, 2025, 03:10:03 AMI'd add that those things work both ways, Sarah. I'm a huge proponent of tolerance and non zero-sum thinking; basically if someone is doing something that may not be my personal preference, but which isn't harming anything except my perceptions, then I've taught myself to be fine with it. Let them lives their lives as they wish.

Exactly this, Tanya!

It's a woman with bad bathroom etiquette, not "a man" with bad bathroom etiquette.

I love the way you always find the right words to gently unravel complex perceptions. 💓🌷


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on June 15, 2025, 10:38:57 PMLike Kathy and Sarah I sympathize with Eileen's discomfort and, for her sake, regret the incident occurred and did my best to express that level of empathy in my initial response.

QuoteAfter reading the initial post, I felt as though I was being chastised for an incident that had nothing to do with me or, frankly, any of the wonderful people I've met in the halls of Susan's.

Annika, as I continue on this journey, I've learned not to extend solidarity to cis discomfort at the expense of protecting the person actually being targeted, in this case, a trans or gender-nonconforming person simply using the restroom.

This kind of compromise is dangerous.

It centers cis discomfort over trans and gnc existence.

It implicitly condones misgendering.

It shifts the burden of others' biases onto us.

And it reinforces transphobic narratives about who does or doesn't "belong" in women's spaces.

Let's be clear, no one in this thread did or said anything wrong.

You have nothing to apologize for.

Be unapologetic. Smile. 🙂


~ Lilis 🫂💞

As noted, no one has done or said anything wrong in this thread. It's a good conversation.

I do want to point out that the post is in the Significant Others subforum, which is a unique space on the site:

Quote from: Susan on May 23, 2005, 11:36:10 PMThis forum is primarily intended as a place Significant others can go to in order to seek support from each other. While I do not block the posting by the transgendered I would ask that as much as possible you respect this as a seperate area for them. If they have a question and you can answer it in a neutral manner feel free to respond. This is a place for facts and good information and not for advocacy.

Let's just be conscious of where we're posting and who we're replying to.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on June 16, 2025, 10:35:59 AMI do want to point out that the post is in the Significant Others subforum, which is a unique space on the site:

Let's just be conscious of where we're posting and who we're replying to.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Thank you, Devlyn, for the thoughtful reminder, message received.

I do find it personally difficult to engage in a neutral way when a post, even unintentionally, touches on something that may feel invalidating or misgendering.

For me, neutrality in those moments can feel like quiet agreement, which is challenging.

That said, I recognize the nature of this subforum and the importance of its intended space.

With that in mind, I'll be stepping away from this particular conversation and have muted the thread from my end for my own peace of mind.

Appreciate your guidance. 🌷

~ Lilis 🫂

Thank you, Devlyn. That has been on my mind as I've watched this discussion.

I also decided I'd like to add my opinions and experiences and emphasize that that's all they are - my own unique perspective - as is the case for anyone else.

For decades, long before I ever considered I might be transgender, I've used women's restrooms. I've found them to be cleaner, more spacious, and better maintained. I only ever entered them if I felt confident they were empty, I always sat on the toilets (in closed stalls), and I never left until the room was empty. I didn't want any other users of the facility to be uncomfortable due to my presence. These were all my choices. Fortunately, I never had an encounter with anyone in dozens of these experiences.

Last month, I was in the Seattle airport and had the pleasure of encountering and using an all-genders public restroom. It was large, had open doors at both ends, maybe 20 closed stalls, and very well lit. People of mixed genders were coming and going. For me, it felt so good and so obvious. I have no doubt there are others who could never bring themselves to use it, and that's fine.

I recently said elsewhere in another discussion that, just as Kinsey showed with sexual behavior, I see now how varied and unique gender identity is and realize that it doesn't lend itself to fitting expectations or distinct categories. And I see no reason why that wouldn't apply to a multitude of human expressions - like eliminating waste from the body.

I can't remember where I first heard it, but I strongly believe that when we say something, no matter what or whom it is about, what we're really telling is something about ourselves. How can it be otherwise? We are the observer, the thinker, the feeler, the opiner. As Tanya pointed out, we all have been conditioned to behave certain ways in certain situations, and we naturally impose those expectations on others. I find it incredibly valuable to learn to recognize when we're doing that and ask ourselves: Where did I get that expectation? Is it reasonable to think that it's shared by everyone? Does it truly serve me?

I also firmly believe that much of our growth as adults comes from unlearning conditioned ways of thinking and behaving so that we can finally see who we've always been beneath those layers of obedience training.

But that's me.

Thank you so much Tanya, Devlyn, Lilis, and Pema for bringing so much compassion and insight to my attention. In particular, pointing out the unique space reserved for significant others. Like Lilis, I will withdraw from the discussion and trust those better equipped than I am to carry on. Scripting is such a hard nut to crack and I admittedly flounder at times. Love and hugs to all of you, to everyone who cares.

 I never thought that this would become a big issue, nor do I see responses from spouses or SO's. Acting, dressing, portraying as a woman, sit down to pee. The concept should not be too difficult. Doing so does not make a trans person 'invisible'. (Lilis) I have probably shared public washrooms with many CD's or trans over the years and never was the wiser. At the particular event which started this discussion, I knew that most of the other women where men dressed as women. To not have the common sense, decency or etiquette to sit down to pee is quite baffling.

 As a genetic woman from birth, is offensive to have a man invade a woman's washroom. Final statement. All other opinions are wrong. Those are my and many other women's feelings. Get over it.

Quote from: Eileen on June 29, 2025, 08:13:42 PMAll other opinions are wrong.

I literally laughed out loud at that, Eileen.

Hi Everyone

From what I can see: "Get over it" is ironic and it is based on the following two points.

• It dismisses discussion while demanding respect.  Eileen states that all other views are wrong then tells others to stop complaining.  That demand for silence contradicts Eileen's own act of voicing a grievance.
• It also overlooks shared etiquette.  Many women cis or not agree that anyone using a women's restroom should sit to urinate.  By insisting that men should not enter at all she sidesteps the real issue of considerate behaviour that Eileen herself values.

In short the closing command undercuts her point because it shows the same lack of courtesy she criticises.  This is not about transgender issues but simple restroom etiquette: if you use the women's toilet please sit on the seat.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Eileen @Pema

 Sarah B
 You completely missed the entire discussion. There does exist a thing as right or wrong. Presenting as a woman, in the washroom, sitting to pee is the only way to present as a woman. It is not CIS normative(Lilis) It is what woman do due to biology.

I've spent many nature hikes and Scouting trips as a youth and adult leader. When nature calls, women squat in a secluded area. The men of our group were respectful of our privacy.

 I never ever stated that men should not enter the women's facilities, unless dressed as a woman and sit to pee.
 Your closing sentence is at least baffling. How am I lacking in courtesy by insisting that CD/Trans sit to pee?  What lack of courtesy are you referring to? And then you seem to agree with me in the first place?

 I started this post, expecting to hear from other SO's or spouses, so far, not a one. Yes, I am demanding respect as a woman. You want to be in our most private areas of washrooms, act like a woman. There is no other serious discussion on this matter.

 

As a stroke survivor with balance issues I've learned how hover when using public facilities.I do that even when using unisex family facilities.

I've heard that men have a different center of gravity.  Maybe that makes hovering more difficult?  I wouldn't know for sure.

Marion

Quote from: Eileen on June 29, 2025, 08:13:42 PMAll other opinions are wrong. Those are my and many other women's feelings. Get over it.

Quote from: Eileen on July 25, 2025, 04:04:00 PMThere is no other serious discussion on this matter.

:police:   Terms of Service, Article 1:
Treat others with respect and kindness: Engage in conversations with empathy and understanding. Acknowledge different perspectives and experiences. Avoid aggressive or dismissive language, and strive to create a supportive atmosphere where every member feels valued and heard.    :police:

https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,2.0.html