Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Re: topic https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36070.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36070.0.html) and others, a couple of us have been talking about some issues on the androgyne forum.

I have no problem with people being humorous and veering off topic occasionally, obviously people need an outlet to blow off steam sometimes. I've been just as guilty of doing this. I believe that in our attempts to understand ourselves and others, we tend to look for similarities, shared traits and feelings about being androgyne. The downside of this can be, if someone doesn't share these traits or feelings, they might not feel that they are supported in their difference. Sie might even decide that this forum isn't for hir, and that's a shame. There really aren't many places for us on the internet.

Being androgyne isn't always a laughing matter. It's been a struggle for me to learn who I am and how to live in the world. Ultimately, this forum is about support, and the androgyne section should operate in such a way to meet those needs. We are a diverse community, there are many unique ways to be androgyne. Let's work together to create a space in which it's safe and supportive for everyone to explore who they are on the gender continuum.

Zythyra

I totally agree  this it is an important that androgyne people determine who they are knowing. no 2 androgyne people are the same or have the same gender identity I dislike blanket statement like androgyne people people don't suffer gender disphoria (gender depression)or that we are all happy living in the middle maybe the forum should be called "non binary gender variant" if it was such a mouthful, everybody's story is different as much as i would like to meet someone that was going through the same as me exactly I know that wont happen but i have little bits in common with lots of people then I can feel suported and not so lonely isn't that what this site is all about?
also there is no such thing as a true androgyne

Quote from: Kinkly on June 02, 2008, 10:40:31 AM
I totally agree  this it is an important that androgyne people determine who they are knowing. no 2 androgyne people are the same or have the same gender identity I dislike blanket statement like androgyne people people don't suffer gender disphoria (gender depression)or that we are all happy living in the middle maybe the forum should be called "non binary gender variant" if it was such a mouthful, everybody's story is different as much as i would like to meet someone that was going through the same as me exactly I know that wont happen but i have little bits in common with lots of people then I can feel suported and not so lonely isn't that what this site is all about?
also there is no such thing as a true androgyne

I've also wondered about the name of our forum, I personally like "non binary gender variant", however I'm not sure if everyone would feel included under that umbrella, for example bigender or two spirit people.

Zythyra

God I wish I actually had something productive to add. I guess I'm just a dummy. :D I believe that tolerance should be definitely emphasized over that belief that just because this person doesn't have my view then that person isn't this or that. Really nice post. :icon_dance:

The fact that there are so many types of gender variant people on this forum has, for me, been its strength.  It is also what keeps me coming back.  I have learned so much about other NBGVs.  I find many similarities with some forum members, and few with others, but the one thing we all have in common is the fact that we don't identify as only male or female. 

(Full disclosure regulations require that I also acknowledge that several of the posts in this forum are made by binary-gendered people, but we have granted them "Honorary Non-Binary Gender" status and they are very much part of our family...umm, the certificates are in the mail??)

Regardless of whether my struggles are the same as other folks, I know that everyone is trying to find their way outside the gender norms.  I believe my role, as part of this family, is to always be supportive, try my best to understand other viewpoints and positions, and share my feelings and struggles in the hope that others will realize they are not alone.  (And make smart-aleck comments wherever possible)  Hopefully, the majority of the members find their roles to be similar.

Thanks Z for reminding us of what is really important.  The fact that I care so much for people I have not, and may never, meet demonstrates the quality of people who call Susan's Place home.

Love......L





 

Quote from: Zythyra on June 02, 2008, 08:59:39 AM
The downside of this can be, if someone doesn't share these traits or feelings, they might not feel that they are supported in their difference.

I've been here scattershot lately. Have we been having problems with this lately? If so, how do we make sure it isn't a problem?

Personally I find it interesting when someone else has a different viewpoint on something. I hope I've expressed that adequately and shown that I'm supportive of all viewpoints.

Since I'm the cause of a lot of this, here's my two cents:

1.) humor is a way to deal.  I can't be serious all the time.  I have to be serious at work, at home, and every where else.  So sorry if I make a joke on here and we get off subject.  But sometimes you just need to laugh and let off some steam.

2.) I would say don't read into what people are saying.  When one of us makes a comment or statement about how androgynes are alike in some ways, we aren't trying to make rules for being androgyne.  Either we just want to be like someone else or we're just trying to understand ourselves.  I can only really think of one person on this forum who does try to define the "true androgyne" and I think most of us have learned to ignore that person's comments when they go that direction.

But yeah, DON'T READ INTO IT.  The drama I've gotten caught up in because people have read into something instead of actually hearing what was said...I can't even tell you.

I think we're just trying to figure ourselves out.  Again, I really don't know anyone who is trying to define the "true androgyne".  The things I say and that others say are just ideas.  I don't see anything wrong with putting ideas out there.  And there's certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing.  In fact, disagreement is great.  It creates more ideas!

But I think we also have a problem with taking things too seriously sometimes or taking things personally that were never meant to be taken that way.  So we should be careful of that too. 

Quote from: Jaimey on June 02, 2008, 07:37:57 PM
I can only really think of one person on this forum who does try to define the "true androgyne" and I think most of us have learned to ignore that person's comments when they go that direction.

Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves...  :icon_suspicious:

I want to clarify that I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I do want to make sure that we don't scare off new people. I sometimes try to imagine what it must feel like for some poor lonely androgyne who has just found us, desperately needing support and community, and they start reading about threadjacking, unicorns, etc... and then run away....

Also, I know that we've lost some people who used to post here, who didn't feel included in the site's definitions of androgyne. I too enjoy reading posts from people who are different from myself, and one of the most amazing aspects of androgynes is the diversity of what that means to each of us. I'm going to keep listening and learning. Everyone's stories help me better understand myself too.

Hugs!!

Zythyra

I think there has been a lack of seriousness, it has seemed more like a party lately.

No one in particular is to blame, I think it was a combination of things and people. I have noticed my forums run in phases depending on weather and time of year, I doubt this place is any different.

Quote from: Jaimey on June 02, 2008, 07:37:57 PM


I think we're just trying to figure ourselves out.  Again, I really don't know anyone who is trying to define the "true androgyne".  The things I say and that others say are just ideas.  I don't see anything wrong with putting ideas out there.  And there's certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing.  In fact, disagreement is great.  It creates more ideas!

I confess "true androgyne"  isn't necessarily the words that people have used just the vibe i get from some posts
I've seen posts where people who say something is or isn't that way as fact when its only personal opinion
and posts from new people seeking answers with wording is this normal?/ is it wrong to? when people need to let them know in a serious way that its ok if no one feels that way we are all different when someone answers a serious question in joke form the person may feel hurt that no one takes them seriously.  When humorous responses gather more response that the question this can turn people off - I'm not like that i'm leaving"  this is semi hypothetical I can see how this would effect some people i haven't been here long enough to see someone ask lots of questions then disappear

I think we're jumping the gun here. I haven't seen any posts trying to lay down the law as to what androgyne is. Or any that even so much as hinted at any 'true androgyne' concept.
Yes, a good number left a while back but it was my understanding that was due to the outcome of several polls on the legitimacy of androgyne as an identity among similar happenings at that time.

Could this section stand a bit more seriousness? Sure. But I doubt someone's going to feel this place is unsafe just cause of a few jokes.

And as Jaimey mentioned, looking for similarities runs rampant in every trans community. But I haven't seen any lists and rules and the like which is all over the other boards.

So, other than we should make more of an effort to be serious when the topic calls for it, I'm not seeing a problem.

I don't think I can really restate my feelings on this any better than what JC and I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36070.msg240846.html#msg240846

Just because we're not directly pointing the finger at people and saying 'you're not an androgyne, GTFO' doesn't make it ok.  A forum full of threads drawing conclusions about what 'androgynes do' or what 'androgynes like' infers enough that direct accusation isn't necessary.

I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

If anything were to make me consider leaving here or stop me as a new member from signing up, this thread would rank near the top. Please, everyone just take a step back and look around, all of this finger pointing and complaining is not doing any good. While none of you may have any hostile intent to what you have written, it reads like there is a lot of anger and problems amongst our little community.

I am going to bow out of it at this point (gracefully I hope).

Quote from: sd on June 03, 2008, 12:42:35 PM
I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

If anything were to make me consider leaving here or stop me as a new member from signing up, this thread would rank near the top. Please, everyone just take a step back and look around, all of this finger pointing and complaining is not doing any good. While none of you may have any hostile intent to what you have written, it reads like there is a lot of anger and problems amongst our little community.

I am going to bow out of it at this point (gracefully I hope).

I think i would have to respectfully disagree with the assessment that this is anywhere near the 'worst' thread that has appeared in this forum. A thread that brings to light issues that exist and have gone unnoticed it not a bad thing by any means in my opinion. If concerns are never voiced then things never change and i'd go as far as confirming that there are problems and there is some anger over said problems in this 'community' that have been too silent and overlooked.

Looking over the tops of the rose-colored glasses may be at times unpleasant and difficult but it still needs to be done from time to time. And as such,  i would personally say that this is one of the better threads i've seen come about here, not the worst.  :)

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

Quote from: Nero on June 03, 2008, 01:29:55 PM
But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

I honestly don't think there would be as many commonalities as one might think. Especially if some things that are taken for granted by a large portion of the population are actually delved into and whittled down to their component parts.

What commonalities do transsexual-identified people even really have? Dysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't. Some like coffee, some don't. I can understand the need to be part of a larger group, to feel that one belongs to something larger than themselves. But to define things by commonalities that aren't so common that also serve to shut others out when they find that they don't fit those commonalities? I'm not quite sure that that is the right path to take.

When you take people who have a 'non-binary' identification and use a term to refer that group as a whole isn't that enough of a distinction? Within that group there are other more specifics but still they refer to identifications not arbitrary traits and such. That, i think is what the better part of this is about.

Quote from: JC on June 03, 2008, 01:55:59 PM

Quote from: Nero on June 03, 2008, 01:29:55 PM
But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

I honestly don't think there would be as many commonalities as one might think. Especially if some things that are taken for granted by a large portion of the population are actually delved into and whittled down to their component parts.

What commonalities do transsexual-identified people even really have? Dysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't. Some like coffee, some don't. I can understand the need to be part of a larger group, to feel that one belongs to something larger than themselves. But to define things by commonalities that aren't so common that also serve to shut others out when they find that they don't fit those commonalities? I'm not quite sure that that is the right path to take.

When you take people who have a 'non-binary' identification and use a term to refer that group as a whole isn't that enough of a distinction? Within that group there are other more specifics but still they refer to identifications not arbitrary traits and such. That, i think is what the better part of this is about.

Hmm... Well if that's the point here, I can refrain from making blanket statements about any group in the future as I don't like blanket statements either.
But this thread came off as kind of an accusation, saying in not so many words 'some here are joking around too much and being non-inclusive and ruining the forum.' Which I don't believe any here had any intentions of hurting anyone or making anyone feel unwelcome.

But if the point of this discussion is just to ask that we not make blanket statements about the androgyne gender or joke around on threads that don't call for it - that's cool. I don't think anyone would have a problem complying with that.

Quote from: Nero on June 03, 2008, 01:29:55 PM
But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

We are all Human
we know there is something different about us
we don't fit in Male or female box clearly
what does YMMV mean

I'm confused because I don't see a lot of things that are being mentioned here actually in the androgyne forum. 

QuoteDysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't.

I haven't seen anything that tries to define androgyne in black and white terms like that.  When we talk about traits that we think might be androgyne, those are very laid back discussions.  And they are open ended.  We never come to a conclusion.  We just discuss.  And there are always people who say, "that's not me," and everyone says, "that's cool.  i'm not like this," and again, we're all, "that's cool too."

I also think that the humor we use is actually more likely to attract and KEEP someone than tick them off.  I think our forum is extremely approachable.  It's not really itimidating.  The only times I've known people to leave are because of arguments usually over semantics.  And I think we all know what happens to threads where "what is an androgyne" comes up anyway.  If a humorous turn in a thread bothers you, say something, but I don't think it's a good idea to say that someone 'might' be offended.  If you've been turned off by it, then you can say that.  But it's never a good idea to speak for the whole, right?  That's what this is about anyway...I'm just making a point, by the way.  I just think it's unproductive to talk about 'might have' and 'may'.  If something has been said that bothers YOU, speak up.  It will be taken care of.

I really just don't see it.  I don't think that anyone on here is doing anything that would make someone feel excluded.  But that's just me.

Quote from: Zythyra on June 02, 2008, 08:00:10 PM
Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves...  :icon_suspicious:

I'll never tell...

Quote from: sd on June 03, 2008, 12:42:35 PM
I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

Sorry SD, I'd hate to think I started the worst thread ever. I'm just trying to address below the surface issues that I was aware of. If we can deal with these, and more people are comfortable to be here, then hopefully it will be worth it in the long run.

Quote from: Nero on June 03, 2008, 01:29:55 PM
But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.

I'm often amazed at the diversity within the gender variant community here. When bigender people were talking about their experiences, it was a complete eye opener, I'd never felt anything like them. Likewise, I've never felt what neutrois people say they feel. Various androgynes have expressed being a mix of genders, I feel that I'm not really either one.

I'm not even 100% sure that I'm androgyne, based on my occasional high levels of dysphora. Maybe I'm really non op, non hrt ts. Of course, I've heard numerous times that doesn't exist. So maybe safer to be an androgyne.

Quote from: Jaimey on June 03, 2008, 06:48:25 PM

Quote from: Zythyra on June 02, 2008, 08:00:10 PM
Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves...  :icon_suspicious:

I'll never tell...

Oh dear, it must be me...  :(

I really love all of you!

Zythyra

Well, as a relative newcomer here one of the things that really attracted me to the androgyne forum (besides figuring out that I am one) is the witty/funny replies that make me laugh, and the acceptance I've felt here. I dunno, maybe I'm just not seeing it (or I'm dense  :laugh:) but I haven't seen much to indicate to me that there is some kind of "exclusionary" process going on here and I would be sad if that were to happen.

I do understand that there are times when seriousness is certainly called for, but i'd also submit that there are times that we can be funny too. And I can see how applying humor in a newb's thread might be taken the wrong way, especially if the person is expressing a lot of pain/depression, etc. It would simply be inappropriate in that case.

We all have to use our own individual judgment in these cases.

I'm tempted to agree. On the other hand, lately it's been mostly various intergendered types here -- the bigendered and neutrois, for instance, have been even more scarce (or quiet) than they used to be. I just hope Nero's forest hasn't started to lose its biodiversity.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 04, 2008, 02:34:30 PM
I'm tempted to agree. On the other hand, lately it's been mostly various intergendered types here -- the bigendered and neutrois, for instance, have been even more scarce (or quiet) than they used to be. I just hope Nero's forest hasn't started to lose its biodiversity.

  Nfr

Indeed, the irony of the one remaining null-gendered person (as far as I know) trying to explain bigender to people wasn't lost on me  :P

Quote from: Zythyra on June 03, 2008, 10:30:44 PM

Quote from: Jaimey on June 03, 2008, 06:48:25 PM

Quote from: Zythyra on June 02, 2008, 08:00:10 PM
Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves...  :icon_suspicious:

I'll never tell...

Oh dear, it must be me...  :(

Zythyra

>:D You know it!  Not.  :P  Seriously, it's not you.  :laugh:  hehe.  I almost decided to go with it and tease you a little while, but then I thought I should be nice.  :angel:

QuoteI think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

If anything were to make me consider leaving here or stop me as a new member from signing up, this thread would rank near the top. Please, everyone just take a step back and look around, all of this finger pointing and complaining is not doing any good.

I think all sd is saying here is that a mountain's being made of a mole hill (forgive the silly country saying...) and we aren't being very constructive in our discussion. 

edit: It's the attitude of the thread that is a turn off.  Not the issue at hand.  That's what I think sd was saying and I feel the same way.

Thankfully, the thread has lightened up considerably today.  So now hopefully everyone is feeling better we can get to the bottom of any specific troubles members are having with the forum. 

:icon_wave-nerd:

***************************

I'm tapping out of this thread.  You can't have a discussion if all the parties aren't listening.

I hope that everyone knows that if they feel a thread is being threadjacked or that the humor is inappropriate, it is entirely acceptable for them to speak up.

I'm sure we all agree we have no intention or desire to disrespect anyone's feelings or concerns.

Nice.  I split for a while and everyone gets all serious.  Though I like to see people soul searching. Soul searching is good.

Quote from: Rebis on June 13, 2008, 10:18:23 PM
I hope that everyone knows that if they feel a thread is being threadjacked or that the humor is inappropriate, it is entirely acceptable for them to speak up.

True. Humour is fun (quite literally :)), but disrupting a conversation is so far from fun that humour isn't excuse enough to do it.

Quote
Soul searching is good.

The lost souls sure appreciate the effort.

  Nfr

Quote from: Rebis on June 13, 2008, 10:18:23 PM
I'm sure we all agree we have no intention or desire to disrespect anyone's feelings or concerns.

Absolutely! This forum should be an oasis from the daily struggles of living as who we are in the world.

QuoteNice.  I split for a while and everyone gets all serious.

That'll teach you to disappear!  ;) :laugh:

Z

IRL, real conversations go hither, dither and yon.  If the subject at some point was important, it comes back again.

I may have missed this one, but I have found it very interesting to read...
...This is because I am always trying to find the commonalities amongst androgynes. I want to read through the forums and feel we are a type of person. I want to feel that we are a family with a common identity. And like a family we are not all the same, but we do share. We may not all adopt the androgyne label such as how an extended family do not all have the same surnames.
I don't think there is a true androgyne but we have to at least see shadows of ourselves in other people or we are not a family at all.

I can never sound that cool, but you're right, having a safe haven feels nice, I can really understand the people here. <3's to you all.  ;D :icon_woowoo:  :icon_love:

this is the first place where I have understood a group of people.

Is there a difference between Andorgynes and Transsexualls?  Because way things sound, Transsexuals could be considered another from of Androgyne...

i'd say they are extremely different.
If you imagined that there was a river...on one bank are males and the other are females. The transsexuals are on one bank longing to be on the other, whilst the androgynes are paddling canoes down the river, striding the river like a collossus or saying the river was never there in the first place.

I knew that navy uniform would come in handy. ;)

But there are still some common themes. Most notably, androgynes don't want to stay on the shore they were assigned to either.

  Nfr

y'see, i believe the androgyne was born at sea, without realising that is what it was.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 06, 2008, 03:32:52 PM
the androgynes are paddling canoes down the river

Somehow I think this group would be floating on inner tubes with beer coolers... :P

...nice analogy, by the way.

Quote from: Jaimey on August 06, 2008, 06:13:52 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 06, 2008, 03:32:52 PM
the androgynes are paddling canoes down the river

Somehow I think this group would be floating on inner tubes with beer coolers... :P

...nice analogy, by the way.

LOL.... nice  :laugh:

There should be something like an FTA or an andy ->-bleeped-<-...or somethin'. 'Cause I don't want any bottom work done at all--nothing added, nothing tampered with, nothing removed--and I do want a deeper voice and a flat chest--but I'm not positive that I want to be legally male, either. I'm more interested in what I am to myself, if that makes any sense.

I don't think of myself as an androgyne, either, except in the sense that I was brought up female and have a mixture of stereotypically gendered characteristics.

The kicker? I DEFINITELY don't want to be legally female.

I wish legal documents and IDs didn't have any gender boxes at all. Or at least they could give you three choices: Male, Female, and Other or Neither or Decline to State.

Sigh.

Once we're more acknowledged by the cruel cruel world and more parents accept that it's okay, then maybe we can add gender education to school or church curriculums.  Then the young ones won't have to search and struggle so much.

(some churches are very accepting)

The gender identification issue is a struggle that's going on right now. but will take time.

I'm of two minds with terms like "non binary gender variant" and "queer."

The main character of the book "Far From Xanadu" by Julie Anne Peters is lesbian, but dislikes the term queer. She felt, as do I, that the term implied something strange about a person. I agree with this, but I also understand how the word is used by BGLTQI folks these days.

The phrase "non binary gender variant" is effective to an extent, but at the same time it seems to validate the concept of binary gender even while trying to point out that gender is non-binary. I use the term "androgyne" because of the two parts of the word ("andro" refering to male and "gyne" refering to female). I even like the order of the two parts as I am a bio-male. So to me, putting the male part as a prefix makes perfect sense. Obviously, others don't feel the same way as I do.

I've heard a lot of talk about how labels should be avoided. This is actually a great idea, but I still need language to describe, at least to myself, who and what I am. So, I use labels. I describe myself as a bio-male due to my anatomy. I claim to have female aspects to my psyche due to the language I use to describe myself.

That said, I don't like feminine pronouns used to describe me unless I'm in drag. As I usually present as male, I prefer male pronouns. I'm not really sure why, as I self-describe as an androgyne. But, I don't like gender-neutral pronounds. They seem impersonal to me, in a way. But, again, that seems to go again the whole androgyne thing. There are times when I feel like trying to describe who and what I am paints a picture of an ourobouros.

To Casey's comments, I'm not so sure I support all viewpoints. I support people's right to have and express their points of view. But, I can't support the point of view if it seems to be unhealthy towards me. Case in point, I've been told by persons on this forum that I can't possibly be what I describe myself to be. I support their rights to post these things, but I do not support their actual points. I reject the idea that people who have only "met" me online could have some better understanding of myself than I.

True androgyne? What is a true male? Or female? Is it just physiology? Or, is it deeper than that? Sometimes, cultural concepts define what is male or female.

To Nero's comments about a place being unsafe because of jokes, I'd say there is a certain amount of truth in that. I can't and won't speak for others. But for my part, I do tire of being the butt of jokes. Has that happened to me here. No, not yet. Have I felt condescended to by others here? Yes. But again, it could be that I'm mis-reading their comments.

But Nero's most confusing comment was the "YMMV" thing. Forgive this aging 'net user, but WTF does YMMV mean?

Your Mileage May Vary.

Oh course today most psychologists label androgynes as "gender confused."

Lisbeth

I think I can actually live with that. Gender Confused.          GenCon

I am using the PreGendered term around the Norms.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 07, 2008, 09:43:47 AM
The phrase "non binary gender variant" is effective to an extent, but at the same time it seems to validate the concept of binary gender even while trying to point out that gender is non-binary.

I have similar issues with using the term gender variant, because it still implies that there is a normal gender to which we are measured. Maybe we should just be non-binaries. Or just nons ;D

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on August 07, 2008, 03:37:21 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 07, 2008, 09:43:47 AM
The phrase "non binary gender variant" is effective to an extent, but at the same time it seems to validate the concept of binary gender even while trying to point out that gender is non-binary.

I have similar issues with using the term gender variant, because it still implies that there is a normal gender to which we are measured. Maybe we should just be non-binaries. Or just nons ;D

Z

Now that I think more deeply about it, "androgyne" reinforces the binary, too. It mentions specifically male (andro) and female (gyne). The term works for me, but it also reinforces something that maybe shouldn't be reinforced.

I guess that's just a problem with language, or at least my use of it. There are ideas that I want to convey, but I'm limited by my vocabulary and the word available in the language I speak.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 07, 2008, 03:48:44 PM
Now that I think more deeply about it, "androgyne" reinforces the binary, too. It mentions specifically male (andro) and female (gyne). The term works for me, but it also reinforces something that maybe shouldn't be reinforced.

Good point!

QuoteI guess that's just a problem with language, or at least my use of it. There are ideas that I want to convey, but I'm limited by my vocabulary and the word available in the language I speak.

Many years ago I read a powerful quote from Jamaica Kincaid, to paraphrase, she said that one could not use the language of the oppressor to tell the history of the oppressed. I've often felt that I have to invent a new language to describe my life and gender. Our language really doesn't express who we are and how we live.

Zythyra

i use the term androgyne because that's the one i've grown up with as 'twere.
as for shades o'grey not wanting to be the butt of jokes, i don't fully understand - in the culture i'm in then not being at the butt of jokes implies a very serious social handicap and malfunction. Everyone is the butt of everyone's jokes, to leave them alone is to leave them out.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2008, 05:13:12 PM
i use the term androgyne because that's the one i've grown up with as 'twere.
as for shades o'grey not wanting to be the butt of jokes, i don't fully understand - in the culture i'm in then not being at the butt of jokes implies a very serious social handicap and malfunction. Everyone is the butt of everyone's jokes, to leave them alone is to leave them out.

I think that British humour might not be as mean spirited as American humor.

Z

All humor is mean spirited when you parse it out.

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2008, 08:16:09 PM
All humor is mean spirited when you parse it out.

HEY, THAT'S NOT FUNNY! (Okay, just trying to fake you out.)

Try as I might, I fail to find anything mean-spirited in most of my puns.

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 07, 2008, 10:09:12 AM
Oh course today most psychologists label androgynes as "gender confused."

Lisbeth

When in fact we're gender confusing!

but its not mean spirited in practice. it's cod mean spirited, it's a game, a show of mean spirits. It's actually an attempt at connection and those who are the biggest butts of jokes tend to be the ones people have respect for.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 07, 2008, 05:13:12 PM
i use the term androgyne because that's the one i've grown up with as 'twere.
as for shades o'grey not wanting to be the butt of jokes, i don't fully understand - in the culture i'm in then not being at the butt of jokes implies a very serious social handicap and malfunction. Everyone is the butt of everyone's jokes, to leave them alone is to leave them out.

same here in Newd Bingland. In my experience.  There are fatheads who are just mean, but for the most part, everyone is poked fun at.  People poke fun at me, but they have to because I keep them on their toes.   >:D

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 07, 2008, 10:09:12 AM
Oh course today most psychologists label androgynes as "gender confused."

Lisbeth

I've had to think about this one for a while.

I don't think I'm confused about my gender identity. At least, not any more. As a kid, sure I was.

So if psychologists were to describe my childhood as "gender confused," they would have been right. But now, they'd be wrong and mildly insulting. Again, this phrase seems to imply to me that anything other than the binary is abnormal. I guess by the numbers, it is. But I don't like being called abnormal.

Perhaps I'm too sensitive about this.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 08, 2008, 09:24:34 AM

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 07, 2008, 10:09:12 AM
Oh course today most psychologists label androgynes as "gender confused."

Lisbeth

I've had to think about this one for a while.

I don't think I'm confused about my gender identity. At least, not any more. As a kid, sure I was.

So if psychologists were to describe my childhood as "gender confused," they would have been right. But now, they'd be wrong and mildly insulting. Again, this phrase seems to imply to me that anything other than the binary is abnormal. I guess by the numbers, it is. But I don't like being called abnormal.

Perhaps I'm too sensitive about this.

No, I think it's quite appropriate for you to be offended.

Lisbeth

Puns are mean to the people who have to hear them. 

Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2008, 11:11:07 AM
Puns are mean to the people who have to hear them. 

That's what my wife and kids keep telling me.

You know, I used to shun the pun, but now I can't get enough of them...I'm such a weirdo.  :P

Making fun of people is how I show affection.  I feel bad about it sometimes, but I don't know any other way.  If I tease you to your face, I like you.  Once, a friend of mine said that she wished I wouldn't make fun of her so much...I felt bad.  I think she gets it now, though.  It's how my family shows affection too. 

I care enough about you to make fun of you?  Somehow, that doesn't sound right... ;)

Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2008, 11:11:07 AM
Puns are mean to the people who have to hear them. 

I guess my partner must be a rare breed. He loves my puns. And, come to think of it, I love his. It's nice to be puncompatible.

Quote from: Jaimey on August 09, 2008, 10:33:40 PM
You know, I used to shun the pun, but now I can't get enough of them...I'm such a weirdo.  :P

Making fun of people is how I show affection.  I feel bad about it sometimes, but I don't know any other way.  If I tease you to your face, I like you.  Once, a friend of mine said that she wished I wouldn't make fun of her so much...I felt bad.  I think she gets it now, though.  It's how my family shows affection too. 

I care enough about you to make fun of you?  Somehow, that doesn't sound right... ;)

yeah. If I don't make fun of you then I'm not showing affection.

I guess it depends on the joke and who's telling it.

One of my dad's favorite gay jokes from the '80's was:

Q: What does AIDS do?
A: It turns fruits into vegetables.

My father is a raging homophobe, in addition to his other bigotries. He does not tell such jokes because he cares about homosexuals, even the ones in our extended family. The above is one of the kinder gay jokes he tells. I was in high school when my dad told me this joke, shortly after my first homosexual encounter. When I said I didn't think it was funny because a close friend of mine was gay and I really hoped he would never get AIDS, my dad's reply was, "Well, if he keeps his ASS out of trouble, he'll be fine." He stressed the word "ass" and laughed himself sick. Needless to say, I didn't come out to him. I probably should have, but I didn't fancy the idea of being homeless at 17.

By contrast, what follows is a gay joke I heard from a gay man.

Q: What's the difference between a gay waiter and a washing machine?
A: (with hands on hips, twisting back and forth, and using a sing-song voice) Abosolutely nothing!

I found this joke funny, but when I told it to another gay friend of mine, he nearly killed himself laughing. He really thought it was funny.

My wife, nearing ordination, loves the following joke about her denomination.

Q: How many Congregationalists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Change?

Of course, this joke was told by a Congregationalists pastor during a sermon.

So, I guess it depends who is telling the joke and who is hearing it. To some, such things are funny. To others, they are hateful and offensive.

Your father is certainly not funny.

I don't know if it's jokes so much as wit.

for instance, someone might say "I just had a thought!"

and I would say, "It must be precious to you because it's your first."


I would only say that to someone I feel comfortable with or fond of. Most people understand.

ah, i actually found the fruit one funny and didn't get the washing machine one at all.
i don't agree with the triumphal sentiment behind the fruit one, but the simple play on words is quite an effective one...satisfying. Where the washing machine one, I'm just lost.

Sorry, but that AIDS joke (in common with the vast majority of AIDS jokes) isn't funny.  It doesn't even make any sense.  If AIDS was a disease that "just" caused disability, you could  play on the heee-laaa-rious "disabled = vegetable" stereotype that ab folk find so diverting.  As it is, it's just... bleh.  I can see the waiter one being sort of funny if told between two gay men, but otherwise it would be pretty eggy.*



*Not edgy as in dangerous.  Eggy as in "*sniff sniff* I think this mayonnaise is a bit off."

i didn't realise there was a whole genre of AIDs jokes, i think that was my first one. Hopefully my last also

Quote from: Rebis on August 11, 2008, 10:47:22 AM

Your father is certainly not funny.

I don't know if it's jokes so much as wit.

You have no idea. It really sucks to be the offspring of a bigot.


Posted on: August 11, 2008, 03:25:49 PM

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Quote from: Pica Pica on August 11, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
ah, i actually found the fruit one funny and didn't get the washing machine one at all.
i don't agree with the triumphal sentiment behind the fruit one, but the simple play on words is quite an effective one...satisfying. Where the washing machine one, I'm just lost.

To be perfectly honest, I not too sure about the washing machine one. I know that a lot of machines use the back and forth side to side thing, but how is that like a gay waiter? I don't get it, but that one friend of mine just loved it.

Pica & Lokaeign, you're right: AIDS jokes are not funny at all. How my dad can tell such things, laugh at them and still insist he's Christian is beyond me. The love of Christ, not to mention good taste, just isn't there.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 11, 2008, 05:29:10 PM
You have no idea. It really sucks to be the offspring of a bigot.

My father has a confederate flag tattooed on his arm.  yeck.  Well, to be fair, I don't think he's a racist anymore, but he still thinks gay people are going to hell and all that crap.  (Or well, last I heard he did...he was "born again", but apparently he doesn't go to church anymore)  One ex preacher at his church used the word "->-bleeped-<-got" one day when my mom went with him (a few years back...they're divorced, thankfully...she was pissed, by the way).  He doesn't tell offensive jokes, but his views irritate the hell out of me.

My male parental unit is basically decent and well-intentioned, but has all kinds of weird ideas that he gets hung up on.  Like the idea that the n-word isn't really racist because it's merely a derivation of the Latin for black. 

And then when I told him I'd converted to heathenry, he made Nazi jokes.  Irony, thy name is dad.

Quote from: Lokaeign on August 14, 2008, 11:53:45 AM
My male parental unit is basically decent and well-intentioned, but has all kinds of weird ideas that he gets hung up on.  Like the idea that the n-word isn't really racist because it's merely a derivation of the Latin for black. 

And then when I told him I'd converted to heathenry, he made Nazi jokes.  Irony, thy name is dad.

The word negro is Latin for "black."  I had a conversation with my father about this topic about 40 years ago.  But there is no way I would ever consider him to be racist.  African Americans have gone through several different preferences for being named during my life-time.  And each time they have picked one, prejudiced people came along and turned it into a racial slur.  It isn't the word that's important; it's how it's used.

Yeah, I know that negro is Latin for black.  I'm talking about the other N-word.