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Since this is the non-op forum, I'm sure I might get a different response than the general TS forums.  But what do you think? 

Do you feel you were supposed to be your birth sex?

Or do you feel you were supposed to be your perceived brain sex?

Oh, and why?

And uh... how does that affect you need/desire to transition?

Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

As for how it affects my transition.  While I know (from personal experience) that transitioning to a female would be a blessing and I feel I'd be happy as one, however, knowing that I wasn't supposed to be a female, I feel I'd be lying to myself and everyone else.  This disinclines me to transition.  Of course, now I just have to learn how to deal with the GID without transitioning.

It depends on your perspective on "supposed to be".  If (like me) you subscribe to the Christian worldview, then (in extremely simplistic terms) God is sovereign and everything happens for a reason.  Which means I was "supposed to be" female bodied but feeling male, and now I need to figure out what to do about it in a way that is consistent with my relationship with God, and in light of an eternity in heaven where there is no more pain.

Based on my personal experiences, particularly within the context of my relationship with God, I believe my soul is male.  I believe God doesn't "make mistakes" AND that our current world is "fallen" - meaning God allows birth defects to happen.  Considering what we know about intersex issues, I think it is very possible that male souls could end up in female bodies, and vice versa.  I find the argument that God "wouldn't allow that" to be extremely flimsy, particularly since there are many examples in Church history where Christians did or believed stupid things based on their unjustified opinions that God "would" or "wouldn't" allow something.  Perhaps I will be proved wrong in the end, but if there is a gender binary in heaven, I believe I will be male.

Of course, people will point out that there are delusional people who think they are toasters.  Or tigers.  Or some ethnicity that they are not.  That doesn't mean that's who God wants them to be.  True.  But my opinion is that this sort of an argument is a red herring.  I think the validity of each component of your identity should be judged on its own merits.  For example, take the difference between "When I grow up I want to be a painter" with "When I grow up I want to be a pedophile."  Big difference.  So it is with the difference between "When I grow up I want to be a man" and "When I grow up I want to be a toaster."  If there is such a thing as genuine right and genuine wrong, then some natural inclinations can be celebrated, and some need to be repressed.  Your worldview determines which is which.  In the context of my Christian worldview, there seems to be nothing wrong with my male gender identity, particularly if no one can show me that "God wouldn't allow a male soul to be created in a female body."

In terms of how that affects my need/desire to transition, as of right now I don't think there is anything morally wrong with transitioning.  However, as I explained in another thread (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,58248.msg368078.html#msg368078 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,58248.msg368078.html#msg368078)), I'm not sure that's the right path for me.

By the way, that's just from my Christian worldview.  In a worldview where there is no God or no absolute moral standards, I think I would believe that your sense of self is in the brain, and you should do whatever makes you the happiest.

Oh... and I'm still thinking through this stuff.  These are just my thoughts right now.  I reserve the right to change my opinions. heh.

Joseph

Sorry for intruding here.

Joseph thats pretty interesting. My views follow the pattern that "god" doesnt make mistakes but "god" isnt ruling on or lives and isnt ruling on how we are born. It just happens.

So the: God why???!!111 its unfair. Well its false. Just part of nature and human diversity. (intersex, TS, etc, etc)


Interealia, can I ask your opinion about your questions regarding intersexed persons?

Personally... I don't know. I think there's a reason why I was born female but I haven't found out what that is yet. I guess that's part of the reason I've decided against transition. I feel like I need to get all of this sorted out and transition isn't going to do that.

Quote from: Zelane on April 04, 2009, 02:33:24 AM
Interealia, can I ask your opinion about your questions regarding intersexed persons?

I don't pretend to even know. :D  I mean, based on my incredibly limited understanding of intersexed conditions - some are males that got mixed up and others are females that got mixed up - but I don't even know if that distinction applies to all conditions.

I only know concerning my own condition and what I've come to terms with.  I myself don't feel I'd be consistent with my beliefs about transitioning if I did.  Many people think they need to transition to be what they were supposed to be, well you can say that I'm _not_ transitioning for the same reason. ;)

We are our minds, not our bodies. If my mind were a different mind, I wouldn't exist, somebody else would. So from that point of view, I'm the only person I can be.

As to whether there's a "supposed to" to it, that depends entirely on one's frame of reference of belief. I happen to believe that evolution produces variation all the time, and that male and female were also "abominations" when they evolved 350-odd million years ago. Sexual reproduction proved very successful though, so we kept it. Yay! ;)

Biological variations can become either benefits, in which case they become the norm, or harmful, in which case they die off eventually, and you can't determine how "useful" a new variation is/was till after the fact. Obviously people coming from other frames of refernce will have a different take on things.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I regard gender variance and intersex as such biological variations.

Mina.

Quote from: mina.m>-bleeped-<ie link=topic=58297.msg368595#msg368595 date=1238830987
We are our minds, not our bodies. If my mind were a different mind, I wouldn't exist, somebody else would. So from that point of view, I'm the only person I can be.

Mina.

We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

Well Interalia I asked because reading your first post here and what you replied. It gives me the feeling you are looking at your answers from a sex (genitalia and secondary) perspective.

When you say what you were meant to be given you birth sex. Now, intersexed conditions are not just what you mentioned. Which actually its incorrect and extremely narrow.

What would you do and think if you were born in the middle? And I mean that your body isnt telling you what sex you should be? One of the things I learned here its that what truly says what your gender is. Its simply your mind, brain, soul, heart. Not your body.


I also believe that its perfectly legit for recognizing GID and not wanting to transition. You seem to have some walls due to your beliefs and actually the most important thing I believe its to be comfortable. So if you can achieve that by not transitioning. Go for it.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:03:10 AM
We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

Ah, but whereas schizophrenia and psyhopathy, for example, are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, GID is a structural difference laid down during foetal development. In that it becomes a variation rather than a disorder, a neurological intersex condition, and medication would at best mask or suppress it.

The only way to "fix" it is through modification - either the brain or the body, and since modifying the brain would kill the "you" that you are, essentially erasing the personality we associate with "interalia", even if only partially, I believe that modifying the body to fit the mind is the only ethical and humane option.

Mina.

Quote from: mina.m>-bleeped-<ie link=topic=58297.msg368619#msg368619 date=1238832792
Ah, but whereas schizophrenia and psyhopathy, for example, are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, GID is a structural difference laid down during foetal development. In that it becomes a variation rather than a disorder, a neurological intersex condition, and medication would at best mask or suppress it.

The only way to "fix" it is through modification - either the brain or the body, and since modifying the brain would destroy the "you" that you are, essentially erasing the personality we associate with "interalia", even if only partially, I believe that modifying the body to fit the mind is the only ethical and humane option.

Mina.


Mina.

Note the emphasis.  I do not believe this.  I read the research done.  There weren't enough subjects to determine this or provide a strong enough correlational factor.  At best, it is still correlational - we have no idea what structures are really involved.  We don't know where "Gender identity" is housed in the brain yet, we are just making our best guesses on where it is based on what we currently understand to be the sexually dimorphic areas of the brain.

But for the sake of argument I feel neither of us will budge on, let's say you are correct and it is a structural mutation (one could argue that the DNA mutation that causes Schizophrenia is also a 'structural' mutation just on a much smaller level) I would still want it fixed.  My body is not messing me up, it is my brain.  Why screw with my body when my brain is broken?  I am not female even if I feel being a female will help me.  I have no business convincing myself I am one.

I simply believe I'm meant to be the way I am and to make the most of it for myself and for others.

Have zero problem reconciling being TS and Muslim as I believe it's better to be TS and a believer than non TS and a non believer.

BTW the CIA are probably out to get us! :laugh:

I don't believe in a "supposed to be".  In my view, we are what we are, whatever that may be.

Quote from: Vesper on April 04, 2009, 03:35:43 AM
I don't believe in a "supposed to be".  In my view, we are what we are, whatever that may be.

I guess I mean.  Where do you believe the problem is?  In the body or in the brain?  Were you supposed to be a bio female or a bio male had you not had your condition?

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:22:01 AMBut for the sake of argument I feel neither of us will budge on

I think probably yeah.

Quoteone could argue that the DNA mutation that causes Schizophrenia is also a 'structural' mutation just on a much smaller level

Well ... it's not good on a social level, but arguably it's a very good survival trait if they really ARE out to get you. ;)

Giggle. Sorry, I'm just stirring. :P

Mina.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:37:10 AM
I guess I mean.  Where do you believe the problem is?  In the body or in the brain?  Were you supposed to be a bio female or a bio male had you not had your condition?

Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

My question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

Quote from: Vesper on April 04, 2009, 03:55:35 AM
Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

My question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

Man what a great question!  Truly I don't think I can answer it as there are too many unknowns.  For instance, if such a society existed, and a TS was born into it, perhaps there would be no environmental triggers to cause the dysphoric feelings associated with GID - so people with GID might not even know they have it.  Of course this only applies if you prescribe to the idea that environment has anything at all to do with GID.

As for living life, if there were no binary, I do not think GID would disappear as I believe there to be a biological cause, I just think the symptoms wouldn't be so severe.

Quote from: Vesper on April 04, 2009, 03:55:35 AM
Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

Ok, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:02:41 AM
Man what a great question!  Truly I don't think I can answer it as there are too many unknowns.  For instance, if such a society existed, and a TS was born into it, perhaps there would be no environmental triggers to cause the dysphoric feelings associated with GID - so people with GID might not even know they have it.  Of course this only applies if you prescribe to the idea that environment has anything at all to do with GID.

As for living life, if there were no binary, I do not think GID would disappear as I believe there to be a biological cause, I just think the symptoms wouldn't be so severe.

I didn't really mean no-binary so much as a loose-binary.  I mean we're born with sex organs that mostly fit into two categories and it (crurrently) takes one of each to make a baby.  More I was thinking of a society in which people just didn't care so much about fitting into the cultural norms of what is 'female' or what is 'male'.  I think for a lot of us, much of the suffering associated with GID/trans/etc comes from societal pressure -- "you're supposed to act like X not Y" or vice versa.

But probably not all of it.  As I commented in another recent post, I tend to feel a lot of regret when I think about what things might be like if I had started transition stuff when I was 13 instead of now at 26, and that has more to do with me than with society (although maybe if society were different I WOULD have decided to do this when I was 13!)  What-if's mostly lead to unpleasant feelings =/

Quote from: Vesper on April 04, 2009, 03:55:35 AMMy question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

Ooh! Oooh! I know you didn't ask me, but if I may add my 2c?

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:05:58 AMOk, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

This is very true for me too.

Also, a significant part of my dysphoria is rooted in a discordant body image - I literally feel trapped in the wrong body - wrong bits, wrong lines, wrong everything, so I don't think that would change.

Mina.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:05:58 AM
Ok, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

I feel similarly, except I don't express myself as femininely as I'd like to... yet.

Quote from: mina.m>-bleeped-<ie link=topic=58297.msg368650#msg368650 date=1238836339
Ooh! Oooh! I know you didn't ask me, but if I may add my 2c?

A significant part of my dysphoria is rooted in a discordant body image - I literally feel trapped in the wrong body - wrong bits, wrong lines, wrong everything, so I don't think that would change.

Mina.

That's true and I feel the same way, but luckily we live in a time where we are capable of changing many of the gender-based physical traits (provided you can get the $$$).

(maybe I'm veering a little too OT for the Non-Op forum)

Quote from: Vesper on April 04, 2009, 04:10:49 AM
I didn't really mean no-binary so much as a loose-binary.  I mean we're born with sex organs that mostly fit into two categories and it (crurrently) takes one of each to make a baby.  More I was thinking of a society in which people just didn't care so much about fitting into the cultural norms of what is 'female' or what is 'male'.  I think for a lot of us, much of the suffering associated with GID/trans/etc comes from societal pressure -- "you're supposed to act like X not Y" or vice versa.

But probably not all of it.  As I commented in another recent post, I tend to feel a lot of regret when I think about what things might be like if I had started transition stuff when I was 13 instead of now at 26, and that has more to do with me than with society (although maybe if society were different I WOULD have decided to do this when I was 13!)  What-if's mostly lead to unpleasant feelings =/

That is why, for our own sanity, we should never focus on the things we don't or never will have, or missed out on, or gave up, but rather on the things we have and are working toward.  TOO MANY TS CAN ONLY THINK OF WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE.  Did I make that statement clear enough?  Nothing is ever good enough for some of them - no matter how far they go in their transition, there is always SOMETHING they focus their gaze on and get depressed because they don't or didn't have it.  This is the greatest source of our depression I believe and the first thing we need to fix if we are ever to be happy with ourselves.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:16:59 AM
That is why, for our own sanity, we should never focus on the things we don't or never will have, or missed out on, or gave up, but rather on the things we have and are working toward.  TOO MANY TS CAN ONLY THINK OF WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE.  Did I make that statement clear enough?  Nothing is ever good enough for some of them - no matter how far they go in their transition, there is always SOMETHING they focus their gaze on and get depressed because they don't or didn't have it.  This is the greatest source of our depression I believe and the first thing we need to fix if we are ever to be happy with ourselves.

QFT.

Mina.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 01:29:02 AM

Do you feel you were supposed to be your birth sex?

I don't feel any kind of supposed to's.  I don't really believe in pre-destination.  i believe we are who we always are, like a giant catipiliar slide show through time.  I'm still just being born, at the same time that I'm dying.  So I don't really relate to your premise.  I've always been a girl, even when I was a boy.  I've always been a boy, even when I was always a girl.  It's all sort of concurrent to me, and whatever happens is me.  Because, how could I be anyone but me?

Quote
Or do you feel you were supposed to be your perceived brain sex?

See above I guess.  Don't buy into "supposed" tos.  The only thing supposed to is good for is regret.  Which I'll be honest, I'm not some perfect buddha, and my ideals are not always my feelings at any given time.  But I feel like the over-arching narrative that is my life, is tied to being a girl.  When I was little, my gender was defined in the way that I was a girl who was presenting as a boy.  And now I am a girl who is presenting as a girl.  I may eventually become a girl who is presenting as a werewolf.  But the me who is me is a girl, whatever that is.

Quote
Oh, and why?

Because I'm a silly goober.

Quote
And uh... how does that affect you need/desire to transition?

I don't see it as a transition.  Just as a less filtered expression of my identity, for the purposes of being closer to my life, and being closer to the world and people in it.  Deception creates distance, and then isolation.  Honesty binds hearts.  And as I conquer more and more of my insecurities and trust issues about people---I want to swap blood with the world more and more.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 04:28:39 AM
I don't feel any kind of supposed to's.  I don't really believe in pre-destination.  i believe we are who we always are, like a giant catipiliar slide show through time.  I'm still just being born, at the same time that I'm dying.  So I don't really relate to your premise.  I've always been a girl, even when I was a boy.  I've always been a boy, even when I was always a girl.  It's all sort of concurrent to me, and whatever happens is me.  Because, how could I be anyone but me?

I don't see it as a transition.  Just as a less filtered expression of my identity, for the purposes of being closer to my life, and being closer to the world and people in it.  Deception creates distance, and then isolation.  Honesty binds hearts.  And as I conquer more and more of my insecurities and trust issues about people---I want to swap blood with the world more and more.

That's very lovely, touched my heart.

Maybe I'm crazy, but swapping blood sounds like a good time  >:-).

Absolutly Not.  The gods do make mistakes.  As for your discussion about your God.  He is not the all knowing, all seeing being you think he is.  What about downs syndrome, cleft palette or a club foot?  Certainly because a loving all knowing, all seeing god would not let these birth defects come into the world.

My body is a birth defect like the above, it is male not female as it should be.  My soul is female.

And I am not attacking you because of your beliefs.  They are yours.  And if they give you comfort that is a good thing.  But I wonder seeing that you are a Mormon, does that have any bearing on your choices.  I love you as a follower traveler on this journey.  I do not fault anyone for their faith.  Faith is a choice.  Just as is Transition.

As for me,  I was born in a male body.  I am female in heart and mind.  Transition is a journey to repair the body, just as if I had a cleft lip.  Your is a journey for your soul.

If I have offended anyone I am sorry.  We each come from our own backgrounds.  I happen to be Pagan.

Janet

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:16:59 AM
That is why, for our own sanity, we should never focus on the things we don't or never will have, or missed out on, or gave up, but rather on the things we have and are working toward.  TOO MANY TS CAN ONLY THINK OF WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE.  Did I make that statement clear enough?  Nothing is ever good enough for some of them - no matter how far they go in their transition, there is always SOMETHING they focus their gaze on and get depressed because they don't or didn't have it.  This is the greatest source of our depression I believe and the first thing we need to fix if we are ever to be happy with ourselves.

It's an interesting concept. It may be true that some TS only think of what they don't have but there are a lot who have found happiness with what they got or have received. Our lives are more than just our genders or our focus on our gender.

One of the reasons that GID often has a huge requirement for mental health advice/treatment is to help address the issue of depression and of the "wanting" of things. Once someone realizes that getting that surgery won't be the cure-all (and ideally addressing that before the surgery), then true growth can happen. For some TS, being no-op is satisfying enough. For some, being op is needed to satisfy something. Much like gender presentation has varying degrees so does, IMO, the presentation of GID. Some have a strong, overwhelming GID that they see their whole body as a birth defect while others see it in a milder form (this is me theorizing here).

The most important thing we can do is respect the differences that each of us have and be glad for them. :)

Namaste.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 04, 2009, 07:04:40 AM
Absolutly Not.  The gods do make mistakes.  As for your discussion about your God.  He is not the all knowing, all seeing being you think he is.  What about downs syndrome, cleft palette or a club foot?  Certainly because a loving all knowing, all seeing god would not let these birth defects come into the world.

My body is a birth defect like the above, it is male not female as it should be.  My soul is female.

And I am not attacking you because of your beliefs.  They are yours.  And if they give you comfort that is a good thing.  But I wonder seeing that you are a Mormon, does that have any bearing on your choices.  I love you as a follower traveler on this journey.  I do not fault anyone for their faith.  Faith is a choice.  Just as is Transition.

As for me,  I was born in a male body.  I am female in heart and mind.  Transition is a journey to repair the body, just as if I had a cleft lip.  Your is a journey for your soul.

If I have offended anyone I am sorry.  We each come from our own backgrounds.  I happen to be Pagan.

Janet

Janet, I haven't discussed religion once in this thread nor related how God does or doesn't do anything.  I think the person your comments are directed at is Joseph (the post right after mine).

I am sorry, Interalia.  You are correct and I apologize for my error.  But still do you think that the fact you are Mormon has any bearing on your decision.

Janet

I don't know what sex I'm supposed to be. I know what I am, a person w a body perceived as male, and a sense of internal gender as being female or not male. If there is a g-d, they created me exactly as I am, my quest in life is figuring out how to best use this unique gift.

Zythyra

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 01:29:02 AM
Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male. I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

Interalia,

I belive That my brain is wrong, My whole desire to be female is wrong but I am learning to live with it. Getting rid of that desire will not change who I am and I would function in this life as a normal male.

I was wondering why you identify as TS. If you think your body is right would not that mean by definition you are not TS. The main reason why I consider myself as a cross dresser is because I believe I am male given my body even while I am comfortable out as Alice.

Alice

Quote from: Zythyra on April 04, 2009, 09:04:46 PM
I don't know what sex I'm supposed to be. I know what I am, a person w a body perceived as male, and a sense of internal gender as being female or not male. If there is a g-d, they created me exactly as I am, my quest in life is figuring out how to best use this unique gift.

Zythyra

Totally agree and further more it would be presumptive of us to say the least for us to assume to know what God/G-d/Allah wants as it's certainly beyond human understanding.

Don't want to get all religious here but in Islam we have the concept of al-Ghaib which kind of sums up what is unseen and beyond comprehension. I'm fairly sure the same thing must exist in Judaism and Christianity.

So to put it simply I haven't got the faintest idea if we are meant to be our "bio-sex" but I'm very sure that we are meant to try and make this World a better place for all.

Great to see that here at least we can move beyond the usual religious divides. (((Big Hug))) to my Jewish sister :)

There's a concept from ancient Egypt that I think applies here, which is Ma'at, loosley translated as 'truth/balance/order/law/morality/justice'.  One explanation I got from somewhere on the web that I have now forgotten is this:

Quote"Ethics" is an issue of human will and human permission. It is a function of the human world of duality. What is "ethical" for one group is sin for another. But Ma'at, the reality that made all groups what they are, is transcendent of ethics, just as a rock or a flower is amoral, a-ethical, without "truth or falsehood." How can a flower be "false" or "ethical." It just is. How can the universe be "ethical or moral, right or wrong"? It simply is. That is Ma'at.

So, how I see it, my body/brain isn't right or wrong, it just is.  I feel a conflict between the two, but there's nothing wrong with that, it's just reality, and I can only resolve that for myself to the best of my ability.

Quote from: Vesper on April 05, 2009, 06:47:56 AM
There's a concept from ancient Egypt that I think applies here, which is Ma'at, loosley translated as 'truth/balance/order/law/morality/justice'.  One explanation I got from somewhere on the web that I have now forgotten is this:

So, how I see it, my body/brain isn't right or wrong, it just is.  I feel a conflict between the two, but there's nothing wrong with that, it's just reality, and I can only resolve that for myself to the best of my ability.

That. Was. Awesome.

Mina.

I'm sort of with Janet on this one.  I was never meant to be my bio sex, a mistake was made when my soul entered this body, and I've had to make changes in order to match my body with my mind/heart/soul.  I've had discussions with the Goddess about this, I know it is not her fault that this is the way things are; she does not know how I ended up in this body, and is truly sorry for my condition.  Higher powers are not perfect, mistakes can happen, but I don't hold her accountable.

However, she is happy that I found the strength to overcome this birth defect and become the woman I am today; I've done the best I can to be happy, and that makes her happy too, and in the afterlife it won't matter too much, as this male body will be gone and my spirit will still be female. 

Also a proud Pagan.  ;D

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 05:33:20 AM
So to put it simply I haven't got the faintest idea if we are meant to be our "bio-sex" but I'm very sure that we are meant to try and make this World a better place for all.

Great to see that here at least we can move beyond the usual religious divides. (((Big Hug))) to my Jewish sister :)

Big hugs back to my sister Imaz  :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:

I am honored to work side by side with you, and other people of any or no religion, we can make this world a better place!

Z

It was a little busy for me yesterday.  I've got two people to respond to.  First, Janet:

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 04, 2009, 01:35:17 PM
I am sorry, Interalia.  You are correct and I apologize for my error.  But still do you think that the fact you are Mormon has any bearing on your decision.

Janet

The fact that I am Mormon has a tremendous bearing on my decision as well as my logic and reason, but that doesn't make it any more right or wrong honestly.  As I mentioned before, my body is male, perfectly male in every way from my chromosomes to my physical characteristics.  I do not, however, feel like a male, or in other words, my gender identity is that of a female.  This condition, GID, causes me great stress - therefore it is a problem.  I want to fix the problem.  Most authorities on the subject tell me I must transition to fix the problem.  I feel if I transition that I will be deceiving myself and the world because I will be presenting as that which I am not.  I do not think that transition the only answer. I want to learn how to live with this condition.  As I learn, I want to help others learn to live with it as well - others being those who also do not wish to transition.

Quote from: Alice on April 04, 2009, 10:15:17 PM
Interalia,

I belive That my brain is wrong, My whole desire to be female is wrong but I am learning to live with it. Getting rid of that desire will not change who I am and I would function in this life as a normal male.

I was wondering why you identify as TS. If you think your body is right would not that mean by definition you are not TS. The main reason why I consider myself as a cross dresser is because I believe I am male because of my body even while I am comfortable out as Alice.

Alice

My understanding of a transsexual is someone who experiences GID to such a degree that they believe they actually ARE the other sex.  I am making a conscious choice to believe that I am male, though I feel inside that I am female.  I believe I fit the model for a transsexual - just one who is not transitioning.  Crossdressing, for instance, does nothing for me.  I do not really feel in between or both like the androgynes.  There is no sexual component or any other paraphilia to it, so transvestite doesn't fit either.

My mind screams at me that I'm a girl - my intellect tells me that I am a guy and were it not for this condition, would have been a fine one.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:16:59 AM
That is why, for our own sanity, we should never focus on the things we don't or never will have, or missed out on, or gave up, but rather on the things we have and are working toward.  TOO MANY TS CAN ONLY THINK OF WHAT THEY DON'T HAVE.  Did I make that statement clear enough?  Nothing is ever good enough for some of them - no matter how far they go in their transition, there is always SOMETHING they focus their gaze on and get depressed because they don't or didn't have it.  This is the greatest source of our depression I believe and the first thing we need to fix if we are ever to be happy with ourselves.

Truth.
Desire is no small engine in unhappiness.

---

Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 09:58:44 PM

---

Wasn't there a non-transitioning TS on the L Word?  She was MTF, and Alice tried to date her, but ended up screwing things up.  Oh Alice!

I need to catch up on the last season and a half of the L Word, ha.

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 10:52:26 AM
My understanding of a transsexual is someone who experiences GID to such a degree that they believe they actually ARE the other sex.  I am making a conscious choice to believe that I am male, though I feel inside that I am female.  I believe I fit the model for a transsexual - just one who is not transitioning.  Crossdressing, for instance, does nothing for me.  I do not really feel in between or both like the androgynes.  There is no sexual component or any other paraphilia to it, so transvestite doesn't fit either.

My mind screams at me that I'm a girl - my intellect tells me that I am a guy and were it not for this condition, would have been a fine one.

Interalia,

It is interesting that you say "my mind screams at me I'm a girl" because my mind does not that do me, but a lot of my actions and re-actions do scream "girl". I am comfortable in both male and female mode now so I guess I am just between the gender now.

Alice

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 10:52:26 AM
The fact that I am Mormon has a tremendous bearing on my decision as well as my logic and reason, but that doesn't make it any more right or wrong honestly.  As I mentioned before, my body is male, perfectly male in every way from my chromosomes to my physical characteristics.  I do not, however, feel like a male, or in other words, my gender identity is that of a female.  This condition, GID, causes me great stress - therefore it is a problem.  I want to fix the problem.  Most authorities on the subject tell me I must transition to fix the problem.  I feel if I transition that I will be deceiving myself and the world because I will be presenting as that which I am not.

I guess a lot of this has to do with how you view the mind/body -- if you were perfectly male in every way, what would cause your brain/mind to tell you that you are female?  In order for your body to be perfectly male, this would mean the female-identity impulse would be coming from some part of your mind that has nothing to do with your body.  Or perhaps it is in fact coming from your brain, which is not as perfectly male as you think it is.  Or perhaps the dilemma here is the concept of 'perfectly male'.

The other thing that concerns me is the idea that because GID causes stress, that it is a problem.  A women carrying a baby and giving birth causes profound stress, but the complete act of reproduction is not a 'problem'.  From my perspective, the idea that you have a problem is not coming from you, but from an external influence.

I think the idea of learning how to live in your situation without transitioning so that it will be possible to provide a healthy alternative to people who don't want to fully transition is brave and commendable.  I just worry about making sure that the accompanying messages are also healthy and not detrimental.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 01:29:02 AM
Do you feel you were supposed to be your birth sex?

Or do you feel you were supposed to be your perceived brain sex?

Oh, and why?

And uh... how does that affect you need/desire to transition?

I don't think there is any supposed -thing involved in either direction. Just random misfortune of getting mismatched parts.

Forgive me, I see I need to be exact here, just in case people have not read all of my posts.

I am a male.  I have XY chromosomes.  Everything about my body tells me that I am male.  I'm sure that if I got a brain imaging scan done, we would find that the majority of the sexual dimorphic brain areas would more closely resemble that of a male.  The idea of spirit and soul aside, I believe our brains are our central processing unit.  Despite my male body, somewhere in my CPU, in an area defined to express gender identity, it is out of whack.  We don't know where this area is yet, but if our brain controls all of our perceptions and sensation, then necessarily it is my brain causing me to think this.

It is far more reasonable for me to believe that my XY chromosomes, while in my zygotal state, set off a chain reaction to form me into a male.  A wash of hormones didn't change me to XY (as some have claimed), XY is established before I ever developed two cells meaning the inherent code in those chromosomes would determine how I developed.  That doesn't mean there cannot be errors, but I believe those errors occur during development of my XY (male) body, not BEFORE the egg and the sperm met and determined XY.  If I somehow developed as an imperfect female as an XY zygote, it means I have some seriously messed up DNA, that my Y chromosome more resembled and X chromosome in structure - but this is so far out there, I feel it impossible for that to occur.  I do however feel that minor variations can occur - minor errors, that can mess one up later on.  Heavens knows that once the gonads form and start pumping sex-typed hormones, all sorts of errors can happen to the developing genitalia resulting in intersexed conditions.  Therefore it is not unreasonable, or I should say it is VERY reasonable to believe, that when the gonads form and start pumping those hormones, if physical abnormalities can occur in the genitalia, then physical abnormalities can occur in the brain.  Does this mean my brain is suddenly "changed" into a female brain?  No!  It means I still have a male brain with abnormalities - some of which might make me feel I am female.  So when my developing fetus is born and gains awareness of itself, it feels something is not right, something it cannot explain, something others cannot easily see, and something for which there is no medical test yet created that can determine.

As for GID not being a problem, one doesn't need to look far on this board or one of the others like it to see IT IS A PROBLEM.  It causes undo amount of distress during childhood and beyond.  It has negative social and psychological implications regardless if one chooses to treat it or not.  Feelings of body/mind incongruence, depression, low self esteem, negative self image, destructive tendencies, and possible suicide are all tenants of this condition.  If someone were to give me a pill that caused all of those side effects permanently, I'd decline it.  Why?  Cause they would be a problem!  Having a baby, a temporary situation, has rewards that outweigh the risks for most women, so they accept it.  It is not a problem.  Do the rewards of having GID outweight the negative aspects?  And if you are fortunate enough not to have negative consequences of your GID so much so that it isn't a problem, please teach the rest of us. ;)

Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such. :)

Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 11:35:49 AM
Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such. :)

Sure there is good with the bad, as with all things.  However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.  Perhaps because my GID goes untreated with transition it poses a greater problem for me, but I still see the fruits of this condition and they are not desirable.

Quote from: interalia on April 06, 2009, 11:44:27 AM
Sure there is good with the bad, as with all things.  However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.  Perhaps because my GID goes untreated with transition it poses a greater problem for me, but I still see the fruits of this condition and they are not desirable.

Have to say I totally agree.  There is some good that comes out of having GID.  For example, I find I can certainly empathize with many people's emotional pain, even if the cause of their pain is different.  I am also quite sympathetic and probably would have a hard time labeling anyone a "freak".  Many people have felt safe and understood when they have shared their problems with me, even if they didn't know why.  HOWEVER....it comes at an exorbitant cost.  I hate having GID, and I agree it is a HUGE problem that affects how I function from day to day.  As a Christian, on a daily basis I have to remember that God has not forgotten me and that He has a plan for my life; it's not like my GID took him by surprise.  Knowing this gives me comfort, as does anticipation of an eternal heaven with no pain.  Still, this is a daily struggle I would rather not have.

As an aside, Interalia thank you for all your posts.  Even though we live thousands of miles apart and have never met, I have had more hope in the last few weeks, just knowing you are out there, thinking and struggling and coping with these same things (i.e. having GID but being non-op).

Joseph

Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 11:35:49 AM
Come on interalia. It's not all negative, it takes us to to places others can only dream of, and lets us see the world in a special way.

I enjoy being TS/TG or whatever you want to call it. God has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him. What's not to like?

It's a blessing, have the respect to take it as such. :)

This is a strange and unique gift/blessing, that's for sure. I remember once reading that G-d only gives us gifts that we can use. I'm still figuring out how to use it.

Z

Hmm, I wonder if it is possible I fall in the same boat as interalia. I think I got nailed with aspects of both genders in terms of my brain. I feel cheated in that I never will find a common ground, regardless of if I transition or not. That I will always have these issues, whether I live male, or female. I'm beginning to think that HRT may be necessary though, because I tend to be a lot more destructive to my mind and sometimes physical existence with T being dominant. As where I acquire a more calm sense when on E, and I would rather transition then accidentally do permanent damage or suicide later on cause I didn't do it. Goodness knows I've already come deadly close to killing myself enough times. But I do not know if I can be comfortable physically as a female, even though I do get dysphoria living as a male too. Could my perception change after being on HRT for long enough, and I will enjoy being a girl completely? I don't know, but I'll end up finding out, it could just be fear, as I am loaded with enough fear to last 10 lifetimes.

Quote from: Zythyra on April 06, 2009, 01:25:26 PM
This is a strange and unique gift/blessing, that's for sure. I remember once reading that G-d only gives us gifts that we can use. I'm still figuring out how to use it.

Z

We say something very similar ;): that God/Allah only gives us burdens that we can deal with, and that everything happens for a reason whether we realise/comprehend it or not.

Personally after all these years I think it's an amazing gift, took me years to come to that conclusion but I'm sure it's the correct one. As soon as I accepted this within myself my world changed and great people came into my life. I've never been happier and while I regret the years of suffering, they were worth it for the life I have now. Alhamdulillah indeed. :)

Take care my friend.

Quote from: interalia on April 06, 2009, 11:44:27 AM
However the bad is certainly destructive to the individual.

I think this is a matter of perspective, i.e. from your perspective it seems to be certainly destructive.

I'm pretty sure I have GID but I don't find it destructive to me in any way.  Sure I feel pain when I think about how much I would like to express and interact publicly as female, but it is my choice not to do so -- nothing is stopping me.  Sure I feel pain in that I look more masculine than I would prefer to, but at the same time there are plenty of genetic women (non-intersexed) who look more masculine/less attractive than I do.  And luckily there are steps I can take to change these masculine physical features.

So I don't feel it is destructive, and I don't see it as a problem.  I envision that when I 'finish' transition I will have a better understanding of myself than many genetic women ever will, and that I see as a blessing.

But I don't see transition as the only option -- to return to your perspective and your statements: you want to find an alternative to transition, and hopefully pass that on to others in similar situations.  So in that case I would see it as a blessing that you have GID, because otherwise you would never have the opportunity to do what you say you want to do.

Maybe part of my viewpoint is that I've already dealt with personal issues that are far more severe than GID in the amount of pain and distress caused to both myself and others.  Working through those, I believe now that all (or almost all) of our 'problems' are self-created.  Look at something in a different light and the problem vanishes -- a matter of perspective.

QuoteInteralia
Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

As for how it affects my transition.  While I know (from personal experience) that transitioning to a female would be a blessing and I feel I'd be happy as one, however, knowing that I wasn't supposed to be a female, I feel I'd be lying to myself and everyone else.  This disinclines me to transition.  Of course, now I just have to learn how to deal with the GID without transitioning

Hi Interalia.
For many years I never told anyone about my disorder that I came to learn in later years to be labeled as GID. I only just knew that I had this burning desire to be a girl and dressed up the part every chance I got. I was fortunate I only got caught a couple of time and both those times I was made to believe I had committed a mortal sin and was going to go to hell for it.

Now I had this guilt trip and paranoia I had to live with for many years, and I trusted no one to talk to about it. Not even my mom and I trusted her more then anyone else in the entire world.

I once went to see a priest to talk to about this problem, I was 15 years old and to keep the story short this was to a greater degree when I left the church, never to return. I ran away form home that year, hitchhiked from central Ontario Canada to New York city. The big city in the middle of the Hippie movement.

I was lucky that I had some folks from a commune take me in. I lived (as a girl) with those folks for nearly two years. Oh yes, flower power, the flower children they called themselves, pretty colorful folks they were.

Well at fifteen and the long hair and the unisex clothes I passed quite well without even trying to. They had no reason to think I was anything else but a girl and I integrated well with the girls. You could call this my first experience of living in the preferred gender.   

Unfortunately it would take many more years of doing the wrong things and making the wrong choices and all the wrong things which eventually lead me to loose my three children my home and everything else that was worth anything to me.

Ihad nothing and I spent five years living on the street before I took in my first sober breath in many years. I had been a total failure for 30 years before I knew within, when the little voice  spoke to me that there was something I needed to do in this life and it was time to start.

I got on social assistance, upgraded my living arrangement from a room to a one bedroom apartment, went back to school to get the necessary papers I needed to work as a social worker. I worked twenty years as a social worker, working mostly with the very folks I once was a member of, street people. After a time I knew that this was where I needed to be. this was my mission. Ten years later I discovered the meaning of transsexuality and GID. Even though I had the GID, all that time I was in the dark as to it's true nature and then discovered there was something I could do about it.

This never deterred me from my mission to work with those in need. I transitioned on the job and I never lost a client over it. If anything I gained clients. My life is good today and I still continue working with those in need at a street women's shelter and at the down town trans support group.

If you have already read my story then I apologise for taking up space on this thread. I beleive we are both on the same journey hun, just occupying different genders.

Cindy

Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 11:35:49 AMGod has everything, including of course a sense of humour, and we should learn to laugh with him.

That is quite possibly one of the most awesome things I've read in a while.  :)

Mina.

Cindy,

I'm glad you shared your story with me, and I'm so happy that you were willing to listen to that voice, and make a decision that would ultimately improve your life.  Seems you were in a real rut before then!  I'm fortunate to be growing up in the time period I live in, I do not know how I would have made it had I been born earlier.

Again, thank you for your story.

You are quite welcome Interalia. I would like to hear yours sometime if you don't mind.  :D I believe we have more incoming then meets the eye to most. Some might se us as the most unlikely pair to be conversing on this board. Well, que sera, sera, like two ships passing in the night. "Hee, hee," a Mormon and a Wiccan witch, hee, hee! what da ya think? Don't worry most folks probably already think we are both one french fry short of a happy meal.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on April 07, 2009, 01:46:00 AM
You are quite welcome Interalia. I would like to hear yours sometime if you don't mind.  :D I believe we have more incoming then meets the eye to most. Some might se us as the most unlikely pair to be conversing on this board. Well, que sera, sera, like two ships passing in the night. "Hee, hee," a Mormon and a Wiccan witch, hee, hee! what da ya think? Don't worry most folks probably already think we are both one french fry short of a happy meal.

Cindy

It might interest you to know that the majority of my friends in real life that are religious are Pagan.  In fact, back when I was learning about the Mormon church (I am a convert) it was only my Pagan friends who offered support in my search for truth as most of my Christian friends became estranged from me because of my interest in the Mormons.

My story is quite long, but very detailed.  Check it out:
http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html (http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html)

Hi Interalia, ya don't scare me hun. I have met many different variety of people, from town mayors to movie actors, to Billy the bum sittin out there on the park bench, buy him a hot dog and he is the happiest gent in town, big grin contrasting sharply with the unshaven face. Or how about the guy at the intersection of Esquire and Mandrake, gotta be quick at dropping your coins in his hat as you drive by.

You would be surprised by these folks whom by outside appearance appear to be uneducated, unkempt, torpid minded peasants who have probably gone without a bath as since the great flood.

You will find Philosophers, preachers, scholars, anybody anywhere from Doctors, lawyers to engineers, every walk of life. But for reasons I can only guess, they have lost the way and hiding from the world. Using white mans fire water, cheep rot gut wine, or anything else they can get in trade from damned, damned the pusher man, the most popular being crystal meth.

And oh yes mustn't forget, "God bless them," our own kind, they have a name for them, >-bleeped-< whores they call them. Maybe it is because they began selling themselves by trying to earn extra money for transitioning but later it became a necessity to make ends meet as they are unable to get gainful full time employment. Then they end up without work, and unable to obtain another job even after frantically trying to find work.

The despair and hopelessness becomes overwhelming as they are resigned to living on the street, selling themselves for a favor from damned damned the pusher man. Having failed in making it in society, they create their own little reality on the street.

Taking away someone rights of choice through drugs and alcohol to the point where the lives of these retched beings on the street is only worth $ in their pockets of the greedy pusherman. This scourge is probably the biggest pestilence that has ever taken over the land, like a cancer, just in the past few decades.

"Ah!" but now I preach, well enough of that. As I say, I do not scare easily anymore about much of anything, having left all that I have left behind me and getting up in years, I have only one life to live and I have chosen to be there and to do as best I can for those folks I have just mentioned.

I can only just pray to be guided and shown the way. Good things are coming my friend, good things are coming, "believe!" Fore once I have a comrade who knows and understands and who hears the tiny voice of the house mouse.

Thank you for posting the link to your story.

Cindy

         

Quote from: interalia on April 06, 2009, 11:29:11 AM

It is far more reasonable for me to believe that my XY chromosomes, while in my zygotal state, set off a chain reaction to form me into a male.  A wash of hormones didn't change me to XY (as some have claimed), XY is established before I ever developed two cells meaning the inherent code in those chromosomes would determine how I developed.  That doesn't mean there cannot be errors, but I believe those errors occur during development of my XY (male) body, not BEFORE the egg and the sperm met and determined XY.  If I somehow developed as an imperfect female as an XY zygote, it means I have some seriously messed up DNA, that my Y chromosome more resembled and X chromosome in structure - but this is so far out there, I feel it impossible for that to occur.  I do however feel that minor variations can occur - minor errors, that can mess one up later on.  Heavens knows that once the gonads form and start pumping sex-typed hormones, all sorts of errors can happen to the developing genitalia resulting in intersexed conditions.  Therefore it is not unreasonable, or I should say it is VERY reasonable to believe, that when the gonads form and start pumping those hormones, if physical abnormalities can occur in the genitalia, then physical abnormalities can occur in the brain.  Does this mean my brain is suddenly "changed" into a female brain?  No!  It means I still have a male brain with abnormalities - some of which might make me feel I am female.  So when my developing fetus is born and gains awareness of itself, it feels something is not right, something it cannot explain, something others cannot easily see, and something for which there is no medical test yet created that can determine.

Actually GID may very well be chromosomal based, Im sure most on this board have already read this article, but I will post a link below. If this can be reproduced and proven true it would seem to indicate that GID was something carried on the chromosomes and this condition would exist before development or  conception and  very similar to or possibly a type of AIS (which is carried on the mothers X chromosome and can cause many of the abnormalities you speak of). If this is the cause then what is the person suffering from GID meant to be.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0 (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0)

It doesn't matter what I "think" it's how I feel that's important. The only person one has to live with for rest of one's life is yourself. It's best to make it as easy as possible. I don't get too concerned about the wrong body issue. Doing what feels right, feels right.

Quote from: Jesslee on May 08, 2009, 02:23:54 AM

Actually GID may very well be chromosomal based, Im sure most on this board have already read this article, but I will post a link below. If this can be reproduced and proven true it would seem to indicate that GID was something carried on the chromosomes and this condition would exist before development or  conception and  very similar to or possibly a type of AIS (which is carried on the mothers X chromosome and can cause many of the abnormalities you speak of). If this is the cause then what is the person suffering from GID meant to be.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0 (http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2275/gene-linked-transsexuality?page=0%2C0)

This is very interesting and thank you for sharing it.  :D  However, it doesn't change my premise that even if there exists this additional androgen receptor (AR as the article calls it) that the MTF person was MEANT to be female biologically, their genes were building a male (XY) and something got messed up in the process.

There are lots of questions we can ask that turn out not to be very productive. "Can God make a rock so heavy He can lift it?" "Will Goddess inflict three-fold revenge if I beat a masochist in ways that gratify her, if I don't know she's a masochist?" "What is grandmotherly kindness?" and on and on through lots of traditions. There's a pair of problems with all of these: first, how on earth are we ever to have reliable knowledge about the answer, and second, if we do have it, so what? For me, "supposed to" questions almost always end up like that.

Rather than "Am I supposed to be my bio sex?", I suggest a different question:

"What actions that I might take about my sex and gender best help me in living a life that lets me fulfill my other desires and obligations?" What leads to me, or you, or anyone else, feeling happy, capable of loving and being loved most deeply, most free of the sin of self-condemnation (and remember that it is a sin according to Jesus, who said "neither do I condemn three, go and sin no more", just as much as it's a soul-weakening choice in paganism and other creeds), most prepared to discharge our duties to the world when it comes to charity and justice?

For me, that's trusting the sense of self that's in my mind rather than the one expressed in my genes. Trying to be male took a constant toll on me, shrinking my spirit and resolve, and impairing my ability to tend properly to myself or to have the energy I should have had to help the world around me. Accepting myself as female led very directly to the receding of life-long self-loathing and a willingness to get to work on things that'll improve my chronically weak health, and to better support some political efforts that I've been wanting to help.

I am a better person, for myself and for the world, as a woman.

What choice makes you a better person? That's the only way to judge "supposed to be" I can think of that deals in observable reality.

Quote from: interalia on May 08, 2009, 08:01:14 AM
This is very interesting and thank you for sharing it.  :D  However, it doesn't change my premise that even if there exists this additional androgen receptor (AR as the article calls it) that the MTF person was MEANT to be female biologically, their genes were building a male (XY) and something got messed up in the process.

No problem I hope you found the article interesting. For me I think almost the opposite, I believe that if this is chromosomal based (which it would be because this is where the defective AR is) then it was meant to be. If you read about women with  AIS they are completely female even though they have XY chromosomes problem is that the X chromosome carries a defective AR much the same way as the article describes, if a person believes in fate or providence this would seem to indicate that the person wit AIS was meant to have this problem.


I only mention these things to get you to think about GID in more than just a "well it was a problem during development" you are asking alot of questions and have come to conclusions that seem very similar to those that I came to when I was younger. I am a Baptist so you can imagine the internal conflicts that GID created for me, add to this the fact that many in the religious communities pretend to "KNOW ALL ABOUT" Biology, Physics, Chemistry, etc.. when in fact they have very little knowledge on the subjects and usually regurgitate bad information that they have read from some crackpot that never finished medical school, but wants to make money selling books to the ignorant. It was only after I spent almost 5 years working on a degree in Engineering that I realized how silly it is to make decisions about my health based on the advice of someone who at best has a degree in Theology  ::)


I always knew something was wrong with me and I did have some developmental problems (I never fully Masculinized  like my brothers did) but I never put it all together and for the longest time I beat myself up mentally and just about convinced myself that this was my fault.

After I was diagnosed with AIS things seemed to make sense, and it helped me understand that this was something that I had very little control over, now I wish that I had not waited so long because I know I would have had very little trouble if I had transitioned when I was younger.

Whatever you decide to do I wish you the best, and I hope you will not beat yourself up like I did. Only you can decide what is right to do, if you suffer from GID then I can tell you that my personal experience is that it does not go away.

Sin? I believe, speaking for myself, that the sin was in denying myself from what should have been the natural thing to do after all those years and would have done if it would have been in a more enlightened time.

After living as who I am for nine years I can only say that I have never felt more normal before in my life and I am going to the grave as who I am, no one shall ever take away my identity again in this life time.

I like the article, it means "hope," for us seeking not only to be whom we feel and need to be, and to be at peace or in harmony with who we are, and also, "the big also," to be understood and accepted as normal human beings among other human beings out there in the outside world.

Cindy

We are given the ability to master our own destiny.  Thus it is not up to anyone but the individual to determine ones future and identity.

If you're worried that it's not in, "God's master plan," then ask yourself: is his/her plan to have you born as (s)he wants you, or is his/er plan for you to live your life and thus die as (s)he wanted you to.

Just because you're born a pauper doesn't mean you can't become a prince.

This is no different.

Hi Kiera, I didn't yawn.  ;D Well maybe that don't count for Martians. "Hee, hee."

Cindy

I don't necessarily feel it is all that important what we are 'meant' or 'supposed' to be.  I started this thread because so often I see MTF individuals who believe that they are female, meant to be female, but have a disability that made them male, or gave them male physical attributes.  I personally don't hold this belief about myself and explained my reasons as to why.  I was wondering if anyone else saw it as I did.

so much activity here, couldn't help but throw in my cents worth...

I guess how I see the whole thing is like so:

I see gender identity as not just black-and-white... there's all colors between. Many people are comfortable at either end of the spectrum, and many others are comfortable in between.

Personally, I'm somewhere in the middle... I feel very neutral in the ways I view gender, and I want my body to reflect that.

Spiritually, I'm Pagan... and nature has seen fit to give me a biological male body. I have a larger bone structure, a high metabolism, and I happen to be 6'2"/6'3"-ish, and it's served me well as one who enjoys the outdoors immensely. I live a fairly active (and transient) life. Things like playing outside, running, climbing trees.. I never defined as bot hings, 'cause I knew girls who did that too. We call those girls tomboys, and I've always identified with them. Tomboys were my first crushes, and many of them liked girls better than guys. So I got along with girls, and emulated them.

Much of how I react and feel is feminine... and at the same time I love women... and love making love to them. And as a male, I have the parts to do so... so I guess I could say yes, I feel like a biological male. But since mentally and emotionally, I feel very feminine, I also say yes, I feel like I want to be my mental gender. I'm finding certain agreements I can come to with myself, like how I'm willing to develop breasts and loose my facial hair, and eventually FFS, but I'm not willing to loose the sex organ I have... I like making love to women. But as for my ability to breed... I'm detached. Our species has overpopulated, and there's nothing morally wrong to me with not adding my contribution to the gene pool. I may not be crossing the gender divide fully, but I still consider myself TS because there's still transitioning involved, even if to a 3rd sex.

Okay,. I've rambled enough... I don't post much so I guess I feel like I have to make up for it...

You know, I'm one of those people who believes everything happens for a reason. I think I was born female for a reason, too... though I may not be entirely certain as to what that reason is. I do know, however, that I can't possibly BE female. The 24 years I lived as one were misery; every day was a struggle to try my damnedest to be who everyone else thought I was, even though I knew I wasn't. I thought that I must be female, because all outside indications pointed to it. I tried to believe that it was something wrong with my brain, not my body. It didn't work.

Now I'm having problems in my marriage, and faced with the prospect of having to date once again, I find myself remembering how easy that was as a girl, and how difficult it is as a man. I can't even begin to imagine going back to that, though; it's just impossible to think of myself as being a girl. Now, if this is all a result of a mental disorder, so be it. Because in the end, I'd rather be happy with who I am than force myself to live as something I'm not... even if I was "supposed" to be that way in the first place.

SD

There is a book called Evolutions Rainbow.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oURL7SdooskC&dq=Gender+evolution's+rainbow&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=aqvpx_GlRN&sig=lVLdweO44D0EywSpLSDVSA-xsw8&hl=en&ei=DPwJStO2I4iaMpussNsL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=oURL7SdooskC&dq=Gender+evolution's+rainbow&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=aqvpx_GlRN&sig=lVLdweO44D0EywSpLSDVSA-xsw8&hl=en&ei=DPwJStO2I4iaMpussNsL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

It is a non religious look into why we are the way we are. Why there are Inter sexed people and why there are TS/CD/TG/TV you name it people. Why are some people gay?

I seriously feel it is a physical problem. We are born this way and we need to do what we need to do to fix it. Not everybody can live as they are born. Not everybody is the same. We cannot all fit into neat little boxes with labels. Nature will always find a way to break down barriers and change the rules.

We are at mother natures mercy. We can choose to live how we see fit or live how others want use to live. Personally, I'm through living for every one else.

"Anyone else think we were supposed to be our bio sex?"

If that 'anyone else' is my parents, then yes.
They certainly think I was supposed to stay my bio sex.
Wankers.

Wankers and wonkers the whole lot of them, but the day came where they could not find their victims the house mouse anymore. The house mouse flew the coop and now enjoying life just being who she is.  ;D

Cindy

Quote from: Gypsy on May 12, 2009, 01:22:27 PM
Spiritually, I'm Pagan... and nature has seen fit to give me a biological male body. I have a larger bone structure, a high metabolism, and I happen to be 6'2"/6'3"-ish, and it's served me well as one who enjoys the outdoors immensely. I live a fairly active (and transient) life. Things like playing outside, running, climbing trees.. I never defined as bot hings, 'cause I knew girls who did that too. We call those girls tomboys, and I've always identified with them. Tomboys were my first crushes, and many of them liked girls better than guys. So I got along with girls, and emulated them.

Much of how I react and feel is feminine... and at the same time I love women... and love making love to them. And as a male, I have the parts to do so... so I guess I could say yes, I feel like a biological male. But since mentally and emotionally, I feel very feminine, I also say yes, I feel like I want to be my mental gender. I'm finding certain agreements I can come to with myself, like how I'm willing to develop breasts and loose my facial hair, and eventually FFS, but I'm not willing to loose the sex organ I have... I like making love to women. But as for my ability to breed... I'm detached. Our species has overpopulated, and there's nothing morally wrong to me with not adding my contribution to the gene pool. I may not be crossing the gender divide fully, but I still consider myself TS because there's still transitioning involved, even if to a 3rd sex.

Hi Gypsy, I agree with much of what you said.  I transitioned to live as a woman, but I only had an Orchiectomy performed, for reasons other than yours, but I certainly see where you're coming from and can relate in a way.  I don't believe I was meant to be my birth gender, so that is why I transitioned, but not to a "3rd" sex.  I transitioned to female, and although I may not have "traditional" female genitalia, that doesn't make me any less female.

I love women also, and identify as a lesbian.  While I haven't actually made love to another woman, I suppose I could using my genitals the way they are to do so.  If that makes sense. :P

Also, I wouldn't have to worry about getting her pregnant, because I'm sterile.  So my genes will never be added to the gene pool, and that's good because the world is definitely overpopulated.

I think everyone should cool it.

Topic locked.

Resistence is futile.

If I see another barb-fest like occured in this thread, I will be throwing month long bans around like candy. I am tired of the cruelty I have been seeing recently on the site and will not hesitate to remove that type of behavior from our community. Vexing and Annwyn you better be paying very close attention to what I just said... I would suggest you be very careful in what you put into your posts.