Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Does anyone completely get over the passing question for good at any stage of transition? Isn't passing often a question for cisgender males and females too?

First, I would like to point out that Passing is not about Beauty (unlike the category here in the forum where Passing section lies under Beauty). Passing, per my definition, means close to 100% of the people who meet me mistake me to be a genetic female (I am MTF). Beauty has nothing to do with it (and I know I am being politically incorrect with my implied statement that females can be beautiful and not beautiful). This is my perspective. To each their own (perspective).

I never questioned previously, prior to transition, about whether I passed as male or not. Of course, I had a lot of feminine features and a lot of people told me about my feminine features. However, I do not think that they ever questioned my gender. I mean, nobody ever treated me like I was a transman. Or perhaps they did, and I did not notice it.

Does passing only become an issue for most of us because we make it into an issue? I mean, how many people see each other every day and never once question the birth gender of the people they meet.

I am still struggling to find sufficient number of people around me to answer the question - Is the perception of my gender in other people's minds ambiguous enough for any of them to be questioning my gender?

Most people tell me that I pass too well. My sibling tells me that I do not (and I believe this more because it is my perspective too). At the same time, my sibling and I are already biased because we have seen me as male for a couple of decades. I can still see shades of the male me in the mirror. However, the people who have never seen me as male (ie. 99.99% of the people I meet these days) tell me that they cannot imagine that I could look male or that I could have ever looked male in the past. They think I pass because they cannot imagine that I could look anything but female.

Passing is a weird subject. It depends on the observer and each observer is a human being without a common rational perspective about what precisely constitutes a male or a female in society. This makes it so complicated to figure out if I really do pass or don't.

My post is not a cry for help. It is just my way of sharing the angst about passing and inviting anyone else's perspectives.

I think alot of this comes from inside us. For a lot  Of years i worried that my face was to feminine and i worked hard to try and look as tough as i could  so noone challenged my "man hood" before i could let go of that crap i spent alot of time observing     genetic women  ,and some are taller than me have bigger hands worse body proportions and deeper voices than me   I think sometimes i out myself because i feel threatened and butch up  also i ve noticed the average person does notice much  acceptyourself  first  worry about everyone else later  Hope this helps

Most transsexuals can be divided roughly into three categories regarding passing.  (1) Those who pass very well in their identified gender.  These tend to be people whose height, body-shape, and general appearance and manners make it easy for them to be accepted as male or female even when not wearing gender specific clothes.  These people tend to be relatively rare in pre HRT mtf transsexuals.   FTM's are in my opinion much more passable.   These people are the lucky ones.  Only the voice might give them away or an accidental slip into stereotypical behaviour of their biological sex will make people perhaps question their gender.
(2) Transsexuals in this second group tend to pass well in busy places, like malls, shopping centres.  Places where there is a lot of activity, people coming and going, and nobody is paying too much attention to the people around them.    Where the second type of transsexual is vulnerable is in of course quiet, less busy places, and places where people have the opportunity to take a good long look around themselves at the other people present, and any anything about you that doesn't seem quite right will probably be noticed and you may well hear 'oh my God is that girl a guy!'   Buses, trains, cinema, theatre, supermarket queues are places that this second type should try her hardest to avoid.      Hormones and of course SRS will make a tremendous difference to the passibility of transsexuals who fall into this second category.   However, until you have been on hormones 6 -12 + months, you will have to try to avoid the above situations and try and work on downplaying those things about you that undermine your passibility.  Things like clothing, maybe you are dressing too feminine or not feminine enough?  Do you wear clothes that inadvertently emphasise your height, making people think ' that's a tall girl, (looks closer)notices large hands, and big feet... oh my God it's a >-bleeped-<!' ?  Perhaps you are overdoing feminine gestures and mannerisms and drawing attention to yourself?    It is difficult to get body language etc right, too much will give you away more than too little though.   Hair is said to be an excellent indicator of gender, type into a search engine 'feminine males' and you can see at a certain website just how well long hair makes a genetic male appear feminine.  While having long(ish) hair will go a long way, and may well be enough in a number of mtf transsexuals, others will have to review their clothing and/or mannerisms if they are getting 'read' too often.   Really working on your female voice will help people in this category, because if you are called out and you can speak in an acceptable female voice then hopefully your accuser will say 'Oh my God I am so sorry!'

(3) The third category is the one that I fall into.   I am very tall, I am taller than 95% of the genetic males that I pass each day.   I couldn't pass in a coal cellar at midnight.   Body language, mannerisms, gestures, clothing, the company of sympathetic genetic females, long hair, breasts, a very good female voice(see CandiFLA - on YouTube) all these will be to no avail.    Height trumps all of the afore-mentioned together.   

Quote from: Stephanie on January 04, 2011, 07:40:04 PM
(3) The third category is the one that I fall into.   I am very tall, I am taller than 95% of the genetic males that I pass each day.   I couldn't pass in a coal cellar at midnight.   Body language, mannerisms, gestures, clothing, the company of sympathetic genetic females, long hair, breasts, a very good female voice(see CandiFLA - on YouTube) all these will be to no avail.    Height trumps all of the afore-mentioned together.   

Firstly, I call BS. height trumps nothing. I'm 6'4" and I have no problems at all.
In fact, the taller the trans woman the MORE likely you are to pass, as people assume another genetic anomaly rather than a Y chromosome. Height is a piss-poor gender marker as women can be extremely tall as well. Otherwise women's basketball and netball players would be pinged for being transsexuals constantly.

Secondly, I actually got a perverse sense of satisfaction from my period of non-passing (I transitioned without hormones), as I knew things could only get better as time went on.

Lastly, just a general gripe: I really hate the terms 'genetic male' and 'genetic female'. I'm female and I have genes. I'm not an android or some freaky methane-based lifeform.

Vexing, you are clearly far more confident, and out-going than I am.   I admire that.    Are you one of those people who can verbally defend themselves with acid replies and withering put-downs?   
You express yourself well and you can energise a debate with your contributions.   So why don't you start a debate on height in one of the main boards.  You believe that being tall is no excuse for not starting the transition process?  I think that height is major handicap for the mtf. * We could find out what other members think.    There could even be a Wiki started 'Think you are too tall to transition - well think again.'


* Though you have got me questioning my opinion slightly.   :)

Quote from: Stephanie on January 04, 2011, 08:26:17 PM
Are you one of those people who can verbally defend themselves with acid replies and withering put-downs?

I tend to defend with humour and general joviality. I haven't done the vitriol and withering put-downs for a while now. In fact, I haven't had to defend myself IRL for a long time; those circumstances simply don't arise, whether it's due to luck or how I live my life, I don't know.
   

QuoteYou express yourself well and you can energise a debate with your contributions.   So why don't you start a debate on height in one of the main boards.  You believe that being tall is no excuse for not starting the transition process?

Simply not interested. I know that my height isn't a problem.

QuoteI think that height is major handicap for the mtf.

Well, that thinking can only hinder your transition. You can choose to keep it or discard it, it's all up to you.
You do realise that models (and especially supermodels) are generally required to be 6 foot or taller?

SRS will only make a tremendous difference to passing on a nudist beach or other 'everyone-naked' place

I feel I am passing better visually and I have absolutely no problems going shopping or around my neighbourhood.   My big weak spot is finding my voice.  I feel that every time I open my mouth I am going to give myself away so I end up sounding like an asmatic small boy.    I will get there eventually.   I put it down to 30 odd years of hiding the true me.   My trasnsexuality has been such a carefully guarded secret that opening up is really difficult

I think that height is a massive red herring in all of this (although not really qualified as I'm a rather meh, 5'7") I just think that tall women and tall people in general just get more respect.

Lots of things go towards passing and confidence is no small one, I think that I'll struggle at first but once I realise that the sky won't fall in because I'm wearing a blouse then I think that it will get easier.

That's the theory anyway and we are about to find out.  :o

Quote from: Vexing on January 04, 2011, 07:59:04 PM
  I'm not an android or some freaky methane-based lifeform.

You sure?  :P :laugh:

Quote from: MillieB on January 10, 2011, 07:00:08 PM
You sure?  :P :laugh:

Sadly I am sure  :(

I always feel a little weird when I'm trying to pass (usually when I go shopping) just because I'm 5". Everyone in my family (including my 11 yr old sister) is taller than me and while I often meet women about my height I have yet to run into a cisguy who is. That, and I have moobs with my current binding method. So I always angst and worry and triple check myself in every mirror I pass.

It'll get better in time, I'm already 100 times more comfortable with my body now, it'll filter through and I know it. Eventually I'll be so used to it I won't even think about it, and I'll stop caring what people are thinking when they look at me. But for now, at least, paranoia and discomfort.

Quote from: Vexing on January 04, 2011, 07:59:04 PM
Firstly, I call BS. height trumps nothing. I'm 6'4" and I have no problems at all.
In fact, the taller the trans woman the MORE likely you are to pass, as people assume another genetic anomaly rather than a Y chromosome. Height is a piss-poor gender marker as women can be extremely tall as well. Otherwise women's basketball and netball players would be pinged for being transsexuals constantly.

Seriously. One of my best friend's wife is taller than him, at 6'6.

As long as I've got my chest more or less 'neutralized', my biggest issue when I'm trying to pass is bathrooms. I never know which one to use, last time I used to women's room I got really odd looks (the huge trenchcoat probably didn't help), but I'm paranoid if I go into the guy's room and there's no open stalls...baw. Luckily, most of places I go to frequently have unisex bathrooms.

Quote from: N.Chaos on January 11, 2011, 12:58:44 PM
but I'm paranoid if I go into the guy's room and there's no open stalls...baw.

If anyone looks at you funny for waiting for a stall, say you need to poop. Real bad. That there's a turtle's head rearing out your backside and you need. to. poop.
Problem solved  :)

I've always looked male, but I'm only 5'3" and I do rock an andro look (longish/shag hair, skinny jeans ... that sort of thing) so when I'm out and about sometimes people do call me "ma'am". Honestly I think they can't see past the height and the hair sometimes. But I'm pretty well over it. If I'm under a lot of general stress or have had a total >-bleeped-< day occasionally it will bother me, but I've also chosen to not do hormones or srs so I know with that decision comes some challenges. One of which is if I ever have to show my ID then I used to always get double takes. I don't think people were looking at the gender so much as my photo. I had short, spiky brown hair (and looked like a total dork I might add) and honestly I look totally different with dyed black longer "rocker" hair lol. I finally went to the DMV last year and got a new picture taken so at least with just a glance I look like my ID now.

Obviously when your trans(gender/sexual) you're awareness is going to be super heightened. So a lot of emphasis is placed on passing. My personal opinion is that when I let go of any worry about what other people judged was in my pants (because really, that's what it comes down to) I was much more comfortable just being myself. When you get wrapped up in passing - you are essentially acting. You're trying to walk a certain way and talk a certain way (or "relearn" how to do those things in the proper gender) and you're giving up yourself in a way for other people. You're putting other people above yourself. That's just my opinion and how I had to think about it to move forward in my own life and gain some confidence.

Adding to the tall debate, I'm somewhere just south of 6ft 2 in.  All my therapist has ever said was "lets acknowledge you're going to stand out." He never said I wasn't going to pass, merely that I would stand out.  Tall women do.  I laughed and said I was shorter then quite a few women in the WNBA and that passing had as much to do with presentation, if not more, as it did with looks.

I won't dress like Donna Reed when I need to go grocery shopping and all I ask in return is that you not try to think too much more then "who's that tall chick on aisle 5".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people tend to lay blame on a trait they can't change (like their height) and not one they can change (like the fact they dress like Donna Reed).

I personally don't think being tall means you can't pass. It just means you have a spotlight on you. If you are mtf, and let's say, 5'5", you won't have to work as hard to pass, because no one is staring at you, and you don't stick out. Now if you're 6' or over, You have to make sure your voice, hair, clothes, mannerisms, and CONFIDENCE, are all on point. Otherwise, that "tall girl" could become "that >-bleeped-<" I agree with vexing that it is an issue only if you make it an issue. And it's not like when people see a tall girl they think "is that a >-bleeped-<?" it's just that it catches their attention. I'm 5'9" and I had an issue with my heighth for quite some time. Then I realized (after going out several times as me) that women come in many different shapes and sizes. There are women much, much taller than me. And women much shorter than me. Another thing I wanted to say (since we are talking about height) Is that I see girls my height, 5'9" in heels, very often. And they "pass" just fine. Because they are confident.


...I love being tall!

I Do feel fortunate that I am not too tall 5'7" but I still feel big compared too other woman. 
I feel the same with my broad shoulders, even though there equal or even as small as most genetic women's, I still feel insecure.

It does have to do with being secure with yourself, and not trying to hard to under/over exaggerate certain features.

Alot has to do with how you dress, I have seen many tall genetic women in 2" heels, some look great some not so, but it also has to do with how their dressed, I never think geez I wonder if there trans.
I have also seen average height trans women with 2" & 3"heels some look good some not. The ones that don't look good, scream trans.
If your 5'9" ,wearing a 6" mini skirt have minimal legs, very low cut top and 2" heels you may not pass
On the other hand you could be 6'1 minimal legs, skinny jeans (no low rise this time) 3" heels, scoop neck top, minimal jewelry. You may pass.

Look around, if 60% of the women around you are not dressed simular to you, WELL!

If your in a grocery store at 10:00 am dressed either way above, you may scream TRANS

I wonder if there are more shops etc that cater for tall women in America?      Here in GB we have only one that sells fashionable clothes for tall women, but they are expensive!

 

Quote from: Stephanie on January 11, 2011, 06:02:24 PM
I wonder if there are more shops etc that cater for tall women in America?      Here in GB we have only one that sells fashionable clothes for tall women, but they are expensive!

http://www.tallwomen.org/clothes/#uk (http://www.tallwomen.org/clothes/#uk)

Quote from: Vexing on January 11, 2011, 06:48:40 PM
http://www.tallwomen.org/clothes/#uk (http://www.tallwomen.org/clothes/#uk)

That is such an awesome website - a totally positive place for tall girls/women.

Quote from: regan on January 12, 2011, 01:47:32 PM
That is such an awesome website - a totally positive place for tall girls/women.

Isn't it just! I feel practically tiny compared to some of the women on there!  :o

Another tall girl joining here :P ('6"0)    totally agree with Vexing. Height isn't an issue with regard to passing in MtF's. As you stand out people will only notice you, but any tall girl is going to be noticed so no difference there. I love being tall and I know plenty of girls who are just as tall or even taller..:)

Quote from: sweetie87 on January 12, 2011, 02:40:38 PM
I love being tall and I know plenty of girls who are just as tall or even taller..:)

Yarly! I met a fellow tall woman (taller than me in fact) in a club one night and started bitching about my height. She was like "Are you kidding me? Being tall RULES! I'd hate to be shorter than this!"

Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 02:47:40 PM
Yarly! I met a fellow tall woman (taller than me in fact) in a club one night and started bitching about my height. She was like "Are you kidding me? Being tall RULES! I'd hate to be shorter than this!"

And have you quit bitching about your height since then?:) :P

Quote from: sweetie87 on January 12, 2011, 03:19:49 PM
And have you quit bitching about your height since then?:) :P

Yarly!  ;D
Well, except when I smack my head on something. Then some bitching is allowed.

Quote from: drippin on January 11, 2011, 04:58:34 PM

...I love being tall!

Tall girls are sexy ;D

I'm tall, 6'1'', MtF, and I've always had long hair, so even before I finally accepted being trans, people from behind would still think I'm a girl.  I've thought about it being a problem and all, but I don't worry much over it.  As long as I can pull everything else off, then I'm sure height won't be an issue.  But no, I haven't been full time girl in public yet, so who knows how this will go.

Quote from: toxicblue on January 14, 2011, 10:10:42 PM
I'm tall, 6'1'', MtF, and I've always had long hair, so even before I finally accepted being trans, people from behind would still think I'm a girl.  I've thought about it being a problem and all, but I don't worry much over it.  As long as I can pull everything else off, then I'm sure height won't be an issue.  But no, I haven't been full time girl in public yet, so who knows how this will go.

Passing seems to revolve around being thin, short and young.  And yet thin, short and young MtFs end up not passing all the time.  Confidence goes a long way towards passing.  Wearing clothes appropriate to the situation (my classic Donna Reed example) is much the same.  Height can work against you, so can a deeper voice but (someone's elses thought, not mine) if Bea Arthur can pass so can you.  :)

I wish there was some sort of formula to measure passing, you know where you either gain or lose points on different aspects and if your final score is over a certain number you "pass".  That way it was a level playing field for all of us.

Quote from: regan on January 15, 2011, 10:16:12 AM
I wish there was some sort of formula to measure passing, you know where you either gain or lose points on different aspects and if your final score is over a certain number you "pass".  That way it was a level playing field for all of us.

It's not a test hun...at least I don't think it is. Has anyone noticed that they're being followed around by someone with a clip board all the time?

Quote from: Helena on January 15, 2011, 11:33:43 AM
It's not a test hun...at least I don't think it is. Has anyone noticed that they're being followed around by someone with a clip board all the time?

I know that's what I said, but its not what I meant.  :)  I'm thinking more in terms of how different elements play into passing or not passing and helping people understand that being anything but short, thin and pretty does not mean not being able to pass.  That sort of thing.

I think its more I hate the self imposed old wive's tales that we allow ourselves to suffer under.  Starting with the early transitioner vs late transitioner.  The new early is age six anyways so we're all late transitioners by that measure anyways.  Its never too late to transition, unless your dead so that doesn't make sense either.  The magical belief that some how hormones+youth = flawless, which it doesn't, discounts the significant numbers of people that have transitioned at any age over the arbitrary age of 25 (why 25, I have yet to find valid scientific evidence) and are in fact quite passable naturally.  The fact that being tall makes passing difficult disregards the fact that the tallest woman is 7 ft 9 in.  That "natural" women don't have broad shoulders, deep voices, large hands or Adam's Apples.

Maybe I'm just having a rough day, but I'm sick of how divisive we come off against ourselves most of the time.  No wonder we're still fighting for acceptance, we can't even seem to accept memebers of our own community without putting some sort of bizarre qualification on them.

Quote from: regan on January 15, 2011, 01:29:04 PM
Maybe I'm just having a rough day, but I'm sick of how divisive we come off against ourselves most of the time.  No wonder we're still fighting for acceptance, we can't even seem to accept memebers of our own community without putting some sort of bizarre qualification on them.

That's true, but it's also hardly unique to our own little minority. Every single minority I've ever gotten a close look at has done the same thing. Heck, every single subculture I've gotten a good look at has been the same. Humans are just naturally divisive - you may have heard the old saying, "Me versus my brother; me and my brother versus my cousin; me and my cousin versus the world." It's more true than we'd like.

For what it's worth, I've seen arguments of "[band X] is/isn't real [genre Y]" get just as heated and nasty as any trans-related subject discussed in our own little community.

During my Abnormal Psych class, we split up into groups and taught several chapters out of the book.  During the presentation on transsexualism the group presenting showed several pictures of cis and trans women (side by side) and used that to see if we could pick out which was which.  As I recall, the class was wrong most of the time.

Quote from: regan on January 15, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
During my Abnormal Psych class, we split up into groups and taught several chapters out of the book.  During the presentation on transsexualism the group presenting showed several pictures of cis and trans women (side by side) and used that to see if we could pick out which was which.  As I recall, the class was wrong most of the time.

I love doing this to people - except I don't use any trans women, all the images are of cis women. People normally pick around half of the women as trans.

Quote from: Vexing on January 15, 2011, 02:17:58 PM
I love doing this to people - except I don't use any trans women, all the images are of cis women. People normally pick around half of the women as trans.

Oh yes, I totally believe this. It just goes to show how humans perceived perceptions of others is.

This is my biggest fear. I or anyone could pass 110% to the general public with no knowledge of who I or they are.

But people that knew you before transition or someone that just finds out. There perception of me or them, as anything other then female changes. I'm not saying they dislike me or that it is done intentionally, it's just human nature.

The only way to avoid this is stealth. I can't do that.

It would be interesting to do that same test, and instead of asking who is cis and who is trans. Just ask "of all these woman, who looks the most intelligent" throw off there perception right off the bat.

Quote from: Just Shelly on January 15, 2011, 04:20:41 PM
But people that knew you before transition or someone that just finds out. There perception of me or them, as anything other then female changes. I'm not saying they dislike me or that it is done intentionally, it's just human nature.

I'm fairly sure I could transition with my current employer with few problems, but the real question is do I want to?  I mean do I want to be known for being someone who used to be someone else, that sort of thing.  Like there would always be that hanging over my head.  Am I better off working somewhere else as just Regan and not this person I once was?

Quote from: regan on January 15, 2011, 04:25:37 PM
I'm fairly sure I could transition with my current employer with few problems, but the real question is do I want to?  I mean do I want to be known for being someone who used to be someone else, that sort of thing.  Like there would always be that hanging over my head.  Am I better off working somewhere else as just Regan and not this person I once was?

Depends...among the reasons I stayed where I was was the fact I've been there nearly 4 years now, and now that i've transitioned my HR records are in my new name...most companies in the UK ask for a 5 yeah work history...I basically have a year to go until my employment record is all in the name of helena.

The discussion of height got me thinking about a picture I saw one at "People of Walmart .com" of a supermodel, I think it was Elle Macpherson towering over the security they had escorting her. (I couldn't find the pict again and I may be wrong on the model.) This got me thinking about super model heights and I got this list of super model heights goggling it. So maybe the stares are because they think you are a model *grin*

Oluchi Onweagba
6 foot 2

Anna Hickmann
6 foot 1 and a half

Adriana Sklenaríková 
6 foot 1

Elle Macpherson
6 Foot

Jodie Kidd
6 foot

Stella Tennant
6 Foot

Kimberley Stewart
6 foot

Sophie Dahl
6 foot

Elle Macpherson
6 foot

Victoria Silvstedt 
5 foot 11

Ana Beatriz Barros
5 foot 11

Alec Wec or Alex
5 foot 1

Daniela Peštová
5 foot 11

Karolína Kurková
5 foot 11 Look 

Im 5'6" maybe 7" and if I see a guy walking towards me who is taller than me or a girl i guess it intimidates me and makes me feel less of myself. Also when Im walking with my brother who is 5'11 i feel small, because i think if i had been born male i wouldve been as tall if not taller than him so that drags me down a bit.

Do you think Im short for a guy? Tom Cruise is only a couple of inches taller than me and he wears heels n stuff which makes me feel crap about this.

Quote from: TinFoilIdiot on January 19, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
Im 5'6" maybe 7" and if I see a guy walking towards me who is taller than me or a girl i guess it intimidates me and makes me feel less of myself. Also when Im walking with my brother who is 5'11 i feel small, because i think if i had been born male i wouldve been as tall if not taller than him so that drags me down a bit.

Do you think Im short for a guy? Tom Cruise is only a couple of inches taller than me and he wears heels n stuff which makes me feel crap about this.

My brother is about 5ft 9 in (I'm being generous), I'm 6ft 2in (just under)...anything is possible.

Quote from: TinFoilIdiot on January 19, 2011, 09:32:04 PM
Im 5'6" maybe 7" and if I see a guy walking towards me who is taller than me or a girl i guess it intimidates me and makes me feel less of myself. Also when Im walking with my brother who is 5'11 i feel small, because i think if i had been born male i wouldve been as tall if not taller than him so that drags me down a bit.

Do you think Im short for a guy? Tom Cruise is only a couple of inches taller than me and he wears heels n stuff which makes me feel crap about this.

Well I've spent most of my adult life as a male who is exactly the same height as you and yes you feel like a bit of a shortarse at times but mostly I haven't even thought about it.

I have read that Tom Cruise is anywhere between 5'4 - 5'10 so the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. ;)

Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.

Be careful Helena! You don't want the Scientologists on your ass!! :o

Quote from: Helena on January 22, 2011, 11:22:34 AM
Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.

I wouldn't be so sure about 'highly realistic'.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awfulplasticsurgery.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2Ftom-cruise-chest.jpg&hash=94d881956853cff9627185e8d594398fdd5850ef)

Height plays an important part in being accepted as the sex you are presenting, if you can master female body language and walk then being in the height range 5'4" - 5'9" will greatly help getting you accepted.   On the other hand, being within this height range won't help you at all if you don't know how to walk, gesture, sit, stand-up in a feminine manner, and do this consistently and without too much conscious thought.   Some people will want to argue that I am buying into stereotypes and that not every woman is feminine in manner.   This last part is true, but as we have to try and overcome things that undermine our ability to pass.  I think that it is better to be thought as a perhaps overly feminine girl/woman than risk being 'read' on a regular basis.    Genetic males/females can afford to occasionally express feminine/masculine behaviours merely because they are genetic males/females.  We on the other hand can't. 
I have been watching how teenage boys and smallish men move, walk, and express themselves.    Many if not all would not pass as a girl or woman even dressed up and wearing a wig.   Their gestures are wrong, the body-language wrong and their walk is also wrong, so being within the perceived height range of natal females clearly isn't enough.    I find this very comforting.    There is a world of difference between the way boys/men and girls/women walk.    Females do walk slower than males and they also have a shorter stride.  Women even walking fast still take short strides, short rapid strides is how they manage to walk fast, they don't lengthen their stride and march like men do.   I'll give you an example of this.  When I was at university it took me 25 minutes to walk to the station to get the train into the city.   My sister walks to the station and it takes her 45 minutes.   You can do a lot to help improve your passing by walking at a pace that feels too slow to you and consciously taking smaller strides - try imaging that you are wearing a tight skirt.   Getting your walk right is essential, walking in a male manner will completely undermine everything else.   Perhaps this is the reason very passable - in appearance -  transsexuals get spotted?    They post saying 'I just don't understand it at all.  I am 5'6" 100lb with shoulder-length hair and all my girlfriends say that I completely pass, yet I am regularly read as male!   I just don't get why I am read so often?'   The vast majority of people never give how they walk a second's thought.  Of course we are more conscious of such things, but even so it is possible to forget and slip into old male habits without noticing.   Oh the terrible flaming hoops that we must jump through to be seen and accepted by others as female/male!  :'(

I saw an Australian documentary a few years ago about the South Seas cultural phenomenon of the fa'fafine(sp?).  I loved that documentary.  It showed big burly Samoans wearing make-up and dresses often very feminine dresses going about their business in the streets with nobody giving them a second thought.  Nobody pointed, s>-bleeped-<ed, or was confrontational.   They were cheerfully addressed as 'Miss' by everyone without the slightest hint of condescension.  One father told how his son came out as a fa'fafinine ' at 17 he just started wearing his (local costume) like a woman.'   The acceptance was amazing, the father was neither angry, disappointed, or offended.  There was no dragging her off to see doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists.  Neither parent angrily denounced the other 'you mollycoddled him and you turned him into this!'
Freud wrote in 'Civilisation and its Discontents' that modern, industrial societyhas to suppress the instincts and individualism to a very large degree for it's very survival.   Our 9-5 Monday to Friday existence would collapse overnight if people were allowed full reign to their instincts and individuality.    Civilisation makes a 'devil's pact' with its members.   This pact is 'suppress your instincts etc, submit daily to external commands that often suit others but not you.  In return for this largely colourless, sterile existence we will guarantee you food and shelter.'    Too many individuals and our comfortable but lifeless world would collapse.  Most people. weakened physically and psychologically by modern life realise that they couldn't cope with a free, colourful life, where there were NO guarantees. so life goes on as it does.   Although our civilisation guarantees that no one shall starve to death or die of exposure from lack of shelter, this doesn't mean that everyone eats good nourishing food and lives in accommodation that feeds the human spirit.  Think of all those people eating junk food, stodgy carbohydrates, and huge amounts of sugar because they earn minimum wage?   Think of those people living in 'hoods, projects etc.    The way to avoid all this is through obtaining a good (read high paying) job.  This is why fathers and parents in general of mtf's get very worried and upset about us.   A father shouts 'if you transition you'll never get a decent job with longterm prospects.  You'll be stuck in dead-end shop or factory work.'   I am in two minds about this argument.  Lynn Conway has a website where she highlights transwomen 'success stories' so some of us are doing well for ourselves.   However, if you read the biographies of these women you will notice that the majority of them are either self-employed or they are academics.  Owning your own company and being a professor does count as success, but not all of us can do these things.   I could go back and do a post=graduate degree but the fees are very high.  I wouldn't get a loan as I have no credit history and I am very loathed to ask my mother to dip into her savings.  My mother fears that I will end up working in some soulless , dead-end job earning pennies and she fears for my future.   I fear being stuck as a man and being treated like a man.  My mother's perhaps accurate fears for my future, combined my fear of being a man the rest of my life explains why I have consciously decided to think of myself as a teenage girl, and to quietly live as one.   I get to escape having to hold down a job that combines the stress of a neurosurgeon with the pay scale of a video store clerk.    I get fed clothed and housed just because I exist,(not exactly true as I am in charge of all the housework) and I don't have to hide who and what I am from an employer or my fellow employees for fear of scaring the horses.    I am lucky that my mother has a very well paid(long hours, lots of stress) job and she can afford to indulge me.    I am learning programming and studying to be a Linux system administrator so I am trying to beat the odds of ending up in a low paid, deeply uninteresting job.  I would rather live with my mother and be a comfortable child for the rest of my life, than live a solitary stressed and penny pinching existence.  Or to earn a comfortable salary but live as a man.  I have heard that the computer world is trans-friendly and quite well paid so I am aiming to get into that.  I am a geek girl and I know it.  :D

Oh why can't we be as decent and as humane as the people of the South Pacific?

Quote from: Stephanie on January 22, 2011, 05:47:02 PM
Oh why can't we be as decent and as humane as the people of the South Pacific?

I live in the South Pacific. It not as rosy as you're painting it to be. While there is a certain amount of acceptance for Fa'afafine, they are still an opressed group and often thought of as prostitutes, liars and theives.

And btw:
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I know that I write too much but I am having trouble finding my voice here at Susan's.   At other forums I spend my time talking about kittens clothes, etc.  I am open, and spontaneous.  Here, however I can't seem to stop writing first-draft mini essays.  Very strange.

Hi Marissa and peeps!
I think what you are asking is something a lot of people wonder about, especially as they begin feeling their way around the world after coming out to themselves. If your goal is to be seen as the gender you identify with no matter where you are and who you are with, I think it's natural to question things like height and presentation because you are in a place where you are questioning EVERYTHING. I honestly don't know how important height is but I do know a 6'4" transwoman who seems to pass; it doesn't have anything to do with her height, she has pretty much everything else about her presentation in order. Her body shape and mannerisms and voice, etc, etc. are important.

Think of passing (I know some people hate that word but that's what you used so I'm using it (and I do use it, often, I don't have a problem with the word) as an unconscious checklist that the people that see you subconsciously process in about 1.5 - 2 seconds. There are probably 50 things on that checklist. Think about it. You see someone walking like 50 feet coming toward you. If all you see is height, that's one small part of what you see. "Oh, 6'4", but wait, girl clothes, girl walk, long hair, stride, purse, shoes, oh wow, she's coming closer, she's pretty. She's a tall girl but yeah, she's definitely female. That's a cute, tall girl." People process information super quick. If you focus on making as many non-verbal ques work in your favor I think you'll see that height is much less of an issue than you think it is.

By the same token, if you take someone who is 5'5", MTF, and the same thing happens. They are walking toward you it wouldn't be height that you see first. It might be "girl clothes, purse, short, whoa, wait, she's walking kinda dude-like in those heels. Wait, they are coming closer to me. Is that a guy or a girl? Hmmm." That whole subconscious process happens so fast that people generally make up their minds quickly.

Here's the thing though Marissa, what you are talking about and thinking is something I think most of us go through. I think you'll get to this point where you just see yourself as you and you don't worry as much about every little thing, you know? I don't really believe in like blind confidence for myself, although if people can do that I say more power to them. The idea is that you are being true to yourself, putting thought and care into how you present (meaning what you look like when you walk out of the house, what other people are seeing) and if you feel like you aren't where you want to be, make plans to change it. Don't let height stop you from being you. You sound much too awesome to do that :) Meghan

Who do you think would have a better chance of passing

A young RuPaul 6'4"?

Danny DeVito 5' 0"?

:P

Quote from: MillieB on January 23, 2011, 11:36:19 AM
Who do you think would have a better chance of passing

A young RuPaul 6'4"?

Danny DeVito 5' 0"?
:P

Exactly, Millie :)

I was watching a triple bill of Friends tonight, and I noticed that Jennifer Aniston was using a lot of facial expressions, gestures, hand-gestures and body language to indicate her character's feelings, attitude, wishes etc.  Aniston's character Rachel Green was always the most feminine in terms of body language of the three female characters on Friends.  She went from ditsy, materialistic 'Daddy's-girl' in the earlier series to an admittedly still quite flighty, but career-minded woman in the later series.    Aniston in both cases would have given a great deal of thought as how the 'Daddy's-girl' expressed herself, and then later on how to convince the audience that she was a less girlish, career orientated woman.   A lot of this characterisation was done through facial expressions, stances, body-language, and gestures.
Watching Aniston act got me thinking.   As I have mentioned in a previous post (see above) in order to greatly increase your chances of passing you must master the appropriate gestures, body language until it becomes almost second nature.  I say 'almost' second nature because if you are not out and living full-time you will want to switch off opposite sex behaviours when in drab/drag.    Sitting and watching every woman will only confuse and depress you as women of different ages and social backgrounds do express these things in their attitude, and manner etc.  I recommend thinking of the man/woman you want to be in the way an actor prepares for a role.  For example say that you are 21 ,white, middle-class, educated and your greatest wish is to be taken for a young genetic woman, then you should study young women within the age range 18-25 and forget about the rest.   Just spend the coming weeks and months watching this group very closely, notice how they sit/stand when wearing a skirt/dress and when wearing trousers.  How do the women in your target group walk/talk/gesture?   How do they touch their hair, and how often?   Notice also the fashions and hairstyles in your target group as it will undermine your passing if you are seen to be dressed too young or too old.    Books, magazines, television shows, even members of your family are all valuable sources of information and should be used.
Once you have started to see behaviour and body language etc patterns in your target group then you should practice them at home.  At first you will feel that your gestures are painfully stiff and contrived and more likely to draw attention to you than away from you.  However, don't let yourself be dismayed and disheartened, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice and practice.  Soon what looked unconvincing will become natural even your preferred way of doing something.  Soon you will be able to integrate a whole series of movements without giving any of them a second thought.    Don't forget that unlike an actor you are preparing for the rest of your life.  Building a solid foundation now will help you when you start getting into your 30s etc.  Your feminine/masculine body language should - if you have really worked at it - be as near as instinctive as possible so that you will find it very easy to adapt to the body language, gestures etc of a 30 something woman/man.

Quote from: Helena on January 22, 2011, 11:22:34 AM
Tom cruise is actually 1' tall, the entity we know as tom cruise is actually a highly realistic mecha suit that the real tom cruise lives in and controls. I believe it was built for him by the scientologists so he could go forth and spread the message of scientology (what ever the hell that is). Why do you think his acting is so wooden.

Whenever I feel crap about my height Im going to remember this and smile HA

Cheers for that  ;D

Quote from: CaitJ on January 11, 2011, 01:58:33 PM
If anyone looks at you funny for waiting for a stall, say you need to poop. Real bad. That there's a turtle's head rearing out your backside and you need. to. poop.
Problem solved  :)

Sorry, but this made me laugh sooo hard.   :laugh:

And I'm VERY self-conscious about passing, because I'm 5'3".  I am short even for a girl, and when I'm trying to pass, I worry if people are gonna think, "Nah, that kid's way too short to be a dude.  Got to just be a butch lesbian or something."   :( 

Not to mention when I talk in my "male" voice I sound like a fourteen-year-old boy at best.   :-\  Tomorrow I'm actually going to school to visit some friends, and I'll be dressed as "Sage," my male self.  I guess this will be me coming out to some of them.   :(  I'm worried, to be honest.