Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am coming up on our one year anniversary of living with my girlfriend.  I am almost through my third year since going full-time. I have thinning hair, so I need a wig.  I will walk the dog or run errands without doing my hair/make-up, and if people take me for a male, that's their problem.  I refer to this as gender-neutral presentation.  My GF's mom and sister have seen me in gender neutral as well as my regular look.  Her daughter and 8 year-old granddaughter have only seen me once, and it was gender neutral.  We had to take the granddaughter for a day, and I very reluctantly agreed to let the kid take me for a male.  My GFs other sister and sons have only seen me in normal presentation.

They are all very straight.  My GF never had any experience with women before me.  I've posted before about our relationship.  We more or less agree that I am not a man or a woman, I'm neither and both, but more a woman than a man by a longshot.  I am certain that I am truly myself when I am fully female, that's when I operate freely with no mental checks and guards operating to keep from shocking or annoying people.  She thinks that I am really myself when I am acting more gender-nuetral - which I really only do for her comfort.  I don't use my most female voice when it's just us, I tone done the gestures and expressive speech.  She thinks that is the real me.  I tell her otherwise, but she doesn't listen.  Maybe this whole thing is my fault for indulging her as much as I have already.

I'm non-op, we have regular intercourse.  In my mind, I am using a strap on to please her, same as many lesbians do - or we are both moving on a double dildo.  She doesn't really believe that either.

So, I think, to her pov, her request is alot more reasonable that it is.

In the year we have been together, she has seen each of her three children once, and her dad once.  They don't talk much, she misses them.  That was pretty much her situation when we met.  They were already somewhat estranged already.  Her relationship with me hasn't helped, but I don't think it's made much difference.  On the other hand, I am sure there are times, particularly when she is drunk; when she holds me completely responsible for her lack of connection with her family.

My GFs father is retired military.  He had three girls with my GFs mom, then divorced her and had more kids with a woman he is still with.  Alot of them are military.  Last July, he had a BBQ, that my GF went to alone.  Then her dad came back over to her mom's house to meet me.  After which, he supposedly said I was not welcome in his home.

This year, he is starting to feel his mortality and wants everybody gathered to his house for BBQ on 7/4.  Theretically, my GFs 3 kids are all going - but I have the betting line an over/under of 1, and am betting the under, expecting zero to actually show.

My GF wants me to attend in gender-neutral.  I have told her it's out of the question, and explained many reasons why.  I have told her, "It's not even reasonable of you to make such a request."

As it gets closer, she continues to bring it up.  It's only a few hours.  She never asks anything of me, why can't I do this for her.  Why does it matter to me what her family thinks.  I just want to go as a girl to be the center of attention....

My position is that all of her family should say they're not going if I don't go.  I'm perfectly ok with letting her go without me.  I'm not thrilled that she supports me at that low level, but I can live with it.

Today when she was drunk, she gave me an ultimatum.  Do what she wants or else.  She's drunk, she won't remember in the morning - so I am not going to get on my high-horse about the ultimatum.

I am not going to go to that party in gender-neutral.  That's flat.  But I am curious what other people think they would do.

As always, I appreciate the way y'all help me think about things from other angles, even when I don't actually change my mind or behavior.  I am just saying, don't try and tell me what I should do, because that ship has sailed.  But, if for the sake of discussion, you would like to take the time to tell me what you think you would do in a similar situation - I would like to know that.

It isn't something I could do but, as Rabbit notes, you seem to have a history of fluidity.  So it is a very different matter as compared to an SO asking someone who has transitioned to present as the wrong sex... 

Beyond that, I shall simply bite my figurative tongue...

i'd go as myself or stay home. i don't really see what a compromise would be, half gender neutral? doesn't make much sense

still i wouldn't uncategorically refuse to go along with my partner's wishes. i'd rather try again to make them understand why it's so important for me to present myself from my best side to my partner's family, and how much it hurts me to not be understood in this matter. one day the family would have to se my real self anyway, so.. why give them any false hopes that you might be what they consider "normal" in the first place?

not that i've actually been in that kind of situation myself

About the gender-neutral dog-walking and errands, those are solitary things. I am not interacting with people, and certainly not socializing. I'd  rather not have to do it, but necessity calls.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 07:12:46 PM
About the gender-neutral dog-walking and errands, those are solitary things. I am not interacting with people, and certainly not socializing. I'd  rather not have to do it, but necessity calls.

But even at that, you still concede being willing to present in a manner OTHER than a full-time presence even within the household.  As long as she knows that you are willing to do something other than a full-time commitment to transition, then in HER mind, it is NOT an unreasonable request. 

This is NOT a relationship that has long-term stability written on it...

Why would I wish to go anywhere in boy drag.  Hell I don't even have any boy clothes.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 12, 2011, 08:10:55 PM
But even at that, you still concede being willing to present in a manner OTHER than a full-time presence even within the household. 

I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women.  If I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.

I am NEVER not a woman, no matter what I may look like.  That is my definition of 24/7.

If I could afford electrolysis and hair extensions, that would be a different story.  I do the best I can within the financial restraints that an intolerant society's economy imposes upon me.

About 6 months after I went full time, my 3 year-old granddaughter died a week after discovery of an aggressive brain tumor. I flew cross country and spent time with my daughter and her family. I knew that was not the time for them to meet Robyn for the first time. It was a terrible time for them. Being en homme around them made it doubly hard for me. I vowed it was the last time I would ever be seen as other than female.

Although I'll always be dad and grampy to my daughters/granddaughters, they know and accept me as a woman.

Robyn
11+ years postop

Difficult situation.

I do present as 'male' at work. I do present as 'male' at the nursing home my wife is in. That is just about the only places I do.

This might sound sad, but if your gf, even if she was drunk, wants you gender neutral at this time, she has some deep seated concerns. What is her feeling about you going FT in life generally? Or (please this is not meant to be rude) she will put up with a '->-bleeped-<-' as a BF, but really wants a male BF?
You come over as being a normal woman, and at some time you are going to have to deal with it. Sorry

Hugs
Cindy

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women.  If I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.

quite true, that. no matter if i were to be a man or a woman, i'd probably get crazy if i had to dress up in every wake moment of my life. home is a place where you should simply be able to be yourself without having to concern yourself with how other people may perceive you based on your looks. so sad that a balding cis woman without her wig and prettiest dress is still accepted as a woman while a trans woman is often not. there shouldn't have to be a difference, really

In the situation you describe, I think that were I in that situation, I would likely point out that my presence there wearing anything other than what made me feel comfortable, confident within myself, and able to express myself in the way which most reflected who I am would make it far more awkward and uncomfortable for both myself and others. It would backfire badly.

I would find this an inappropriate request, but that's just me. My thought would be this, "if your family sees me in gender neutral mode they are going to think that's me, and then later we are going to have to go through the whole coming out thing with them. If they see me as a woman from the start, it'll be easier."

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women. 

It has nothing to do with whether you have done your hair or makeup...it has everything to do with the fact that you acknowledged changing voice and mannerisms when you were around her in the house. 

QuoteIf I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.

I cannot relate to the wig component, but I also am not one that EVER wears a lot of makeup (if any at all) and that includes going to the office or making a court appearance.  But voice and mannerisms are not something that get flipped off or on like a light switch...they just *ARE*

You have given your SO the impression that you are willing to turn your presentation on and off as opposed to you holding your ground and simply telling her that you ARE who you are.  If the relationship itself is to remain intact, you need to have some fundamental ground rules, not the least of which is that you don't change presentation in public just to help her overcome whatever uneasiness might exist between her and her family...

I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.

Quote from: CindyJames on June 13, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
What is her feeling about you going FT in life generally? Or (please this is not meant to be rude) she will put up with a '->-bleeped-<-' as a BF, but really wants a male BF?

I have written about this in other threads, so if you have a deep curiousity about this, you might look at those.  When we were first seeing each other, she insisted that she "did not want to be in a relationship."  I came to understand this as meaning that she did not want to be in yet another bad relationship with a man.  She's a complex and intelligent person, who unfortunately lacks the education to do a good job of understanding herself.  She doesn't understand that the conscious mind is essentially an observer on the rim of a volcano, and that the true thought process is the unseen churning of magma in the volcano.  See Also: Incognito : the brains behind the mind, by David Eagleman.

She came from such a strict upbringing that she never even saw her sisters in their underwear.  The human body is evil, sex is dirty type of thing.  She is not comfortable naked in any context.  She has a submerged fear of people looking at her, that comes to the surface in some situations, and when she has been drinking.  She spent a lifetime repressing the little part of her that is bisexual.  Since she thinks her own pussy is foul, she can't imagine eating somebody else's.  Yet her favorite aspects of my body are female aspects, with the one obvious exception.  She loves the feel of my skin on her skin and under her hands, and she gets really aroused when I rub my boobs over her body.  She also likes the level of control she gets over me by manipulating my breasts.  Our foreplay/intercourse ratio is about 4/1, foreplay being time I have my panties on and she stays away from them.

When I am looking hot, it turns her on and she wants me, and feels ashamed of it too.  At first we were very affectionate in public, until we were thrown out of and banned from our favorite local bar over the issues of kissing and slow-dancing.  Now she is afraid to be seen as a couple in public, which becomes a dance because she can't resist me either.  I play, "Do you want to kiss me?" for example.

She says she can't imagine living with me if I wasn't a woman.  She loves going to church as an affectionate couple.  She says that the only problems she has with me living as a woman are those that stem from society's reaction to me.  On the other hand, she has spent her life going-along to get-along, not making waves, avoiding attention,... so there is a part of her that wishes I would present as male in public and live as a woman in private, even as she has a conscious understanding that that would be impossible.  She says, "Do you know how much I love you, and how much I sometimes wish I didn't; because you make my life so hard."

To quote one of my favorite songs: Life is hard. You can't get to heaven on roller skates, and you can't catch a taxicab to Timbuktu. Life is hard.

In summary, if she wanted a boyfriend, she had her choice of them for the last ten years when she didn't want to be in a relationship.  She had plenty of suitors, and still does.  Some of them have reupped their efforts, because they think she is going through a crazy phase.  She has had two marriage proposals, over the telephone (duh, guys are so dense), since we have been together - from former lovers, who thought she would come around if they expressed their true(?) feelings.  Personally, I think these two guys, one of whom I know, just felt really, really inadequate in losing to a ->-bleeped-<-, and thought they could redeem their pride by winning her back.

I don't know if I answered your question, Cindy.  But it has been beneficial to me, to refine my thoughts on this, by discussing it with you and others.  Thanks to everyone who participated.

I need to say that before I rip into the arguments made by the next person to whom I am going to reply.  I fear that the writing is gonna sound a bit hostile, though it is those particular arguments that I hate, not the writer.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
It has nothing to do with whether you have done your hair or makeup...it has everything to do with the fact that you acknowledged changing voice and mannerisms when you were around her in the house. 

Double-standard.  Every beautiful woman, every perky woman, every popular woman, pretty much every woman on earth - has different mannerisms in public and at home.  We have a public personna and a private personna.  When speaking in public, we speak with more emphasis, animation and gestures, generally trying for a musical, lilting voice.  At home we speak much flatter and generally with a deeper voice.  Part of the reason that transwomen have more trouble passing on the telephone than in person, is that most woman have a telephone voice that is higher pitched than their usual speaking voice.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
I cannot relate to the wig component, but I also am not one that EVER wears a lot of makeup (if any at all) and that includes going to the office or making a court appearance.  But voice and mannerisms are not something that get flipped off or on like a light switch...they just *ARE* 

Double-standard!  In my last job, I worked closely with the receptionist, a normal cisgender straight woman.  I'd be setting there talking to one personna, and the phone would ring, and a totally different speaking voice would answer the phone.  Even though she was not looking at the person she was talking to, her facial expressions were as if she was looking them in the face, and her hand and arm gestures (with her free hand) were much more animated than when she was talking privately with me.  Her phone mannerism is exactly how she presents in a group of women in a social situation.  It is an entire affected package of social behaviors, that she can literally flip on/off in the blink of an eye.  I use a completely different set of voice/expression/mannerisms when I address the entire church, when I address individual church members, and when I am at some kind of team meeting about the church.  As for the makeup, lucky you.  I have pale skin and have not had electrolysis.  I think it would shock people out of sensibility if I presented as a woman with visible beard shadow. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
You have given your SO the impression that you are willing to turn your presentation on and off as opposed to you holding your ground and simply telling her that you ARE who you are.  If the relationship itself is to remain intact, you need to have some fundamental ground rules, not the least of which is that you don't change presentation in public just to help her overcome whatever uneasiness might exist between her and her family...

Double-standard.  I present in public as a highly feminine woman, and in private more like a chapstick lesbian.  But I am never out of the realm of female behavioral norms.  Even when I am in gender-neutral appearance, I still am a woman in my head and use my female voice.  There is no gender-flipping, which is essentially what she is asking for.

We have fundamental, agreed upon ground rules.  One of which is: I only go out socially as a woman looking my best.  She wants an exception to that rule for this one instance, she claims.  But I fear it's a slippery slope.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what you perceive to be double standards.  Either that or I have been blessed by whatever deity with ONLY having been around women who don't turn voice and mannerisms on and off like a switch (or have been INCREDIBLY sheltered across the past 20 years or so post-transition)...did we have uber-bitch mode that could be turned off or on, sure, but the women I have known were very much the same in the morning when we woke up as they were having drinks the night before (and every instance in between) when it came to voice and mannerisms.     

But the fact that you want to label observations as a double standard says there is little else to be had here in the way of discussion...you wanted opinions but don't seem to like what was given as the observational input. 

Quote from: JulieC. on June 13, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.

You make a good point.  I'm always saying, "Everything is a negotiation".  The one relationship book I really believe in is titled, Negotiating Love.  But that book tells us that, in a good relationship, we have to accept that some things about our partner are non-negotiable, and respect those limits.  We also have to acknowledge that our own non-negotiables are temporary, and be open to entertaining negotiations in the future, if the non-negotiable issue changes.

As someone who spent 40 years trying to find my true identity, I think that expressing my true identity is as close to a permanent non-negotiable issue as you could find.

You are right, I could negotiate for any damn thing I wanted in return for this.  But it would be wrong.

I'm reluctant to turn this on you, except for your own benefit.  I was married twice, for over a decade each time.  Like you, I negotiated for "self-time".  I learned the hard way that there is a difference between entitlements and negotiables, and you can't get yourself into a situation where you are negotiating for your entitlements.

My second marriage, I figured, as a freak, I was lucky to be in it at all.  I did anything to maintain the relationship.  That led to me being abused.  Just a word of caution.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what you perceive to be double standards.  Either that or I have been blessed by whatever deity with ONLY having been around women who don't turn voice and mannerisms on and off like a switch (or have been INCREDIBLY sheltered across the past 20 years or so post-transition)...did we have uber-bitch mode that could be turned off or on, sure, but the women I have known were very much the same in the morning when we woke up as they were having drinks the night before (and every instance in between) when it came to voice and mannerisms.     

But the fact that you want to label observations as a double standard says there is little else to be had here in the way of discussion...you wanted opinions but don't seem to like what was given as the observational input.

Or perhaps you are not observant enough to note the differences.  Or perhaps, unknown to you, there is something about you which prompts women to act different when you are around.

My point is that you are starting from wrong assumptions, and whatever logical chain you build from those wrong assumptions is invalid.  Subsitite cisgender woman for transwoman in your Rules of Presentation, and common sense should tell you that they are not valid, unless there is a double standard.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 13, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
Double-standard.  Every beautiful woman, every perky woman, every popular woman, pretty much every woman on earth - has different mannerisms in public and at home.  We have a public personna and a private personna.  When speaking in public, we speak with more emphasis, animation and gestures, generally trying for a musical, lilting voice.  At home we speak much flatter and generally with a deeper voice.  Part of the reason that transwomen have more trouble passing on the telephone than in person, is that most woman have a telephone voice that is higher pitched than their usual speaking voice.

Double-standard!  In my last job, I worked closely with the receptionist, a normal cisgender straight woman.  I'd be setting there talking to one personna, and the phone would ring, and a totally different speaking voice would answer the phone.  Even though she was not looking at the person she was talking to, her facial expressions were as if she was looking them in the face, and her hand and arm gestures (with her free hand) were much more animated than when she was talking privately with me.  Her phone mannerism is exactly how she presents in a group of women in a social situation.  It is an entire affected package of social behaviors, that she can literally flip on/off in the blink of an eye.  I use a completely different set of voice/expression/mannerisms when I address the entire church, when I address individual church members, and when I am at some kind of team meeting about the church.  As for the makeup, lucky you.  I have pale skin and have not had electrolysis.  I think it would shock people out of sensibility if I presented as a woman with visible beard shadow. 

Double-standard.  I present in public as a highly feminine woman, and in private more like a chapstick lesbian.  But I am never out of the realm of female behavioral norms.  Even when I am in gender-neutral appearance, I still am a woman in my head and use my female voice.  There is no gender-flipping, which is essentially what she is asking for.

We have fundamental, agreed upon ground rules.  One of which is: I only go out socially as a woman looking my best.  She wants an exception to that rule for this one instance, she claims.  But I fear it's a slippery slope.

Even if this is true about most women, and for the sake of argument, say it is. It sounds like you're referencing the normal formal and informal presentations everyone has. Those different modes these women flip on and off are still both female. They're switching from one female presentation to another. It's different from switching from a male or gender-neutral mode to a female mode (I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know you. But that's the impression we're getting from the OP and it seems like that's the impression your partner has).

Quote from: Forum Admin on June 13, 2011, 01:31:47 PM
It's different from switching from a male or gender-neutral mode to a female mode (I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know you. But that's the impression we're getting from the OP and it seems like that's the impression your partner has).

I agree that it is her perception that I switch between male, neutral, and female modalities.  But that is because she was raised to a narrow set of behavioral expectations for females.  One thing I struggle with is to get her to realize that I am switching between female modalities, some of which are outside her unnaturally narrow view of appropriate female behavior in private.

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 13, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
I guess I don't really get it. Are you supposed to use a male name? A male voice? Male pronouns? Be introduced as "boyfriend"? It's one thing to be asked to change your dress. But being asked to pretend to be a guy? No way.

I think that is what she has in mind, and hasn't thought it through that well.  I think she wants to introduce me by my old name and everybody pretend they don't know I am transgender.  I don't think she realizes that the people who are going to be hostile are going to be hostile no matter how I present.  There would be all the same snickering and dirty looks, probably more openly.  Probably way more chance of actual violence.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 13, 2011, 12:39:37 PM
Or perhaps you are not observant enough to note the differences.  Or perhaps, unknown to you, there is something about you which prompts women to act different when you are around.

My point is that you are starting from wrong assumptions, and whatever logical chain you build from those wrong assumptions is invalid.  Subsitite cisgender woman for transwoman in your Rules of Presentation, and common sense should tell you that they are not valid, unless there is a double standard.

Let's try to steer clear of personal comments about each other. They don't really promote an atmosphere conducive to productive discussion.

I've seen my mother, sister, wife, etc use different voices and mannerisms when they are at home, but that is because in public they want to put forth the "perfect" attitude to make themselves look good.  At home they are still women but they don't need to impress anyone.

I don't call that a double standard, I call that being human.

But then I did the same thing, I would use a different voice and attitude when I was in public, usually more timid and trying not to be seen (when I was young).

Quote from: Sephirah on June 13, 2011, 01:54:05 PM
Let's try to steer clear of personal comments about each other. They don't really promote an atmosphere conducive to productive discussion.

Ann concluded that there must be a diety involved in keeping her from making similar observations to mine.  I simply pointed out two other possible explanations.  I was refuting her logic, and I am sorry if it sounded like a personal attack.

My old gender presentation and my new gender presentation are pretty much the same so I'm not really the best to answer this.

Hi Gina
Thank you for the reply. It certainly sounds like a very interesting and loving relationship. And I mean that sincerely. Given her background and upbringing is sounds as if she would be very afraid of losing you and the relationship if her family rejected you.
I think in those circumstances I would follow her wish. It sounds too beautiful a relationship to spoil. And hopefully in time she will accept you 24/7. 

Cindy

It's funny that I was just talking to my GF on the phone at her job.  She's talking to me in a voice that's deeper than my femme voice, with a flat intonation, when a coworker says something to her.  She answers the coworker in a feminine high-pitched, lilting voice - then goes right back to talking to me the way she had been.  Switch on, switch off.  Probably unconscious, didn't even think about it.

Sometimes I think we should just be in relationships with other trans-people, because cisgender people are blind to the vaguaries of gender.  I don't actually believe we should just be in relationships with other trans-people, it's just a way to look at things.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 15, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
I would do just about anything for someone I love. If she asked, which she has, i would put her or another loved ones comfort ahead of mine, be it a child or partner.

I understand that position.  If I felt that way, I'd still be a closeted man, still married to my first wife.  If everybody felt that way, there would be maybe five transsexuals in the world.

I think you are right, but simplistic.  I would do just about anything for someone whom I love, and who loves me back.  And loving me back means loving me who I really am.  So, to my view, if she insists on this thing, she doesn't qualify as someone who loves me, the real me.

Quote from: JulieC. on June 13, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.

^ this haha, is how I would act XD, although I'm not sure I like the term manipulative.

It's one thing for significant others that understand and know our lives and situations. But it can be really hard for their family, to understand (especially if there are kids :-\ or people with um.. more conservative ideas). You are really pinning her into a position where she has to decide between being true to you or keeping appearances with her family.

It's just easier for her to ask the person she loves to just give in for this time because she trusts you more, instead of risking problems with her family.
A series of compromises.

Quote from: Fifou on June 17, 2011, 12:47:33 PM
It's just easier for her to ask the person she loves to just give in for this time because she trusts you more, instead of risking problems with her family.

I agree it would be easier for her.  I doubt it would really be just one time.

I don't see any way that going in gender-neutral could be viewed otherwise than an admission that there is something shameful about being a transwoman.  It's important that these people accept me as a woman, and I am not backsliding nor backing down from that.

If anyone is curious how this plays out, the BBQ is Sunday.  This last Sunday, for the second time, she gave me an ultimatum, go as a guy or we're through.  I said, "I told you last time, the answer to an ultimatum is always no."   As of now, it seems once again settled that she will go by herself to the BBQ, which has now been elevated to reunion status.

Wow that is quite a predicament. I know how you feel. Its like now that they said you can't be yourself now that you can be around you just want to show off being yourself more than you probably would if they hadn't tried to stop you. Another words by trying to put out a small flame they created an Inferno!  ::)

YUP, I would wanna go decked out to just to be like, "oh my god, are you getting infected by my horrible style?!?"

But if they had just accepted you and then said will you go to this function as gender-neutral for _____ reason, then you might be easier to do it, or just decide to be that way on your own.

My mom use to hassle me about visiting telling me not to "dress" at her house. We were going over the "she" pronoun for several months and she always calls me "he" which is how I found this site here. I told her, "How am I supposed to be called 'she' if I can't dress like it when I see you?" I was not even in a dress or anything drastically feminine. One day I came over and I was in makeup, and girl clothes and she said, "I told you! Take those earrings off, that too feminine." Well the earrings had to be the least feminine thing I was wearing. I was pissed. My brother has tattoos on both arms and is barely 20. My sister is a prostitute and my other sister has tattoos and a one year old daughter all younger than I am. Yet she is tripping on me for earrings? It is just so juvenile.

I dated a transgirl once for almost a year. It was a horrible experience because she didn't want me to be trans. I was already out when we met and she liked me then changed....women! It was a bad relationship she use to hit me a lot. Obviously we were not right for each other but believe it or not it was very difficult to break up.  I cried for more than a year because I loved her so much and the same for her.

I say if you want things to go well with your gf work with her and go neutral to the event. She has her reasons and over time you can get her on your level. Otherwise if you would rather be happy as yourself then you should be the giving the ultimatum, not her.

Hey Gina,
You know, the thing with this question is that everyone's own situation is so varied they are going to apply all the little intricacies of their own situation to yours. Like my situation is different from yours so it would be hard to say "if I was in the EXACT position Gina was in, what would I do?" It sounds like you really might be at a life crossroad/transition crossroad/relationship crossroad, especially if she's giving ultimatums, albeit drunk ones. It really stinks having to make such a monumental decision about someone who is obviously so important in your life. I think what you said about her having issues being seen in public with you is what causes most transition relationships (through transition) not to make it. The partner isn't lesbian, is worried that others will judge her based on having trans gf, or stuff like that. Today is Saturday, tomorrow is the bbq, are you closer to making a decision about it? Keep us in the loop, I'm curious to see how you resolve this, Meghan

Meghan, you missed the date on my last post.  The BBQ was almost a month ago.

She went by herself.  I went to church, and during a happy song, I started crying.  Fortunately, my church friends are very supportive.  One of them, when I told him the situation, said, "I'm glad you are not there."  At Joys & Concerns, because many people were showing concern from a distance, I took the mike, but didn't stand to speak.  I said, "I have a joy, twisted to a concern, and halfway back to a joy.  Anne and I recently celebrated our one year anniversary of living together, but I am here by myself today because she is at a family reunion where I am not welcome.  It's good to have a place like this church to come to on days like these."

She came home quite elated and kinda drunk, saying things like, "That was the best time I have had in years," and "It was wonderful to be with my whole family in one place."  She can be kind of insensitive, and couldn't understand why these statements hurt my feelings.  Moreover, she was peeved that I spoke in church, and thought people would condemn her for going.  I told her that most everyone had expressed sympathy for her, to have her family putting her in that position, and her family offering her only conditional love.  Nonetheless, two weeks later, at Pridefest, a lesbian church-member gave her hell about it.  Then I got kicked out of the bar, at a Pridefest after party, for using the ladies room.  The bar was under new ownership, and the new owner didn't give a squat that the law in Colorado is explicit and unambiguous that gender-identity determines restroom use.  So this started Anne on a fresh round of encouraging me to de-transition.

I think the message she got from her family was, "If you leave him, we'll embrace you back with open arms."

To sum up, she thinks she drinks because my gender issues cause her all this emotional turmoil.  When she drinks, she hates that we can't have a normal life, and she gets verbally abusive.  Then she sobers up, and makes up.  But I am getting more and more alienated, especially from Bad Andi, a nickname her drinking personality had before we met.  I have not told her what I really think about her drinking, because it would be very hurtful.  What I say silently to myself is, "It doesn't surprise me that some of the men in your life have beat you.  What surprises me is that some of them didn't."

We love each other deeply.  We have tons in common.  But the long-term outlook is bleak.  If the drinking gets worse, I will leave her.  If the verbal abuse continues, I will leave her.

The backside of this is that, if we can't make it - it will be largely because of pressure from outside our relationship.  It makes me think that it's just useless to try to be in a relationship, period.

Again, I don't expect people to have answers for this mess.  I'm just throwing my data into the mix, to hopefully help other people think about their situations.

Ugh, I'm sorry for dredging up the past, Gina! I didn't mean to do that. You know, I'm glad you didn't go and I'm glad you are setting boundaries. You seem like too good of a person to let someone treat you that way!

It's not the past, and I needed to face up to it.  I'm glad you brought it back up.  And thanks for the compliment.