Many people are agonising over the exact definition of Transgender, is 'transgender' merely a synonym of transsexual, an umbrella term, or a distinct category of its own within the gender community? Personally - and this is just my opinion I am NOT saying that this should be YOUR opinion - I consider Transsexual and Transgender to be different from each other in essence, although there will inevitably be some overlap to varying individual degrees. I consider myself to be Transgender and I define that in what may seem to others to be a rather idiosyncratic manner. the way I accept and define myself works for me, and of course what works for me might not work for you, and that is my point. I have tried to shoe-horn myself into what the general public defines as a transsexual which they get entirely from the medical/psychiatric community who have their own agendas. This doesn't entirely work for me. To avoid offence and risk making this thread controversial I won't use the medical/surgical or hormonal terms. I will say that while I may agree with A I might not necessarily agree with B or C while agreeing upon D and thinking of E as going too far.
This whole post really boils down to two things (1) Define yourself for yourself. (2)Accept other people's definition of themselves. I have come to realise than human beings love, absolutely crave telling other people what to do, how to behave and how to think of themselves. Define yourself, seek your own truth and don't crowbar yourself into anyone else's definition of what a transsexual, transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, androgyne should be.
There will be those reading this who will think 'that is all very well, but surely letting everyone define themselves will greatly undermine public accepts of us? We must define our terms once and for all and enforce these definitions upon others. Allowing a gender definition free-for-all would just confuse and alienate the public.' This has a superficial appeal to it but enforcing a rigid definition upon the entire community for the sake of public acceptance won't work. Nietzsche wrote that Free-spirits and Free-thinkers should never seek to convince what he called 'Bound Spirits' of the validity and rightness of their opinions as the typical man and woman of our day is too enamoured with convention, not because they have thought about the matter and founded it wanting. Bourgeois morality is founded upon fear which expresses itself in moral, social and physical timidity. Also modern education and media information overload has brought about a distressing situation where many people lack the ability to think things through logically and philosophically. Everyone say after me ' I reserve the right to be complicated!'
I agree with all of the above !!!!!!!! ellen ;)
Quote from: eshaver on July 05, 2011, 07:00:25 PM
I agree with all of the above !!!!!!!! ellen ;)
I agree with Ellen
I don't like either term, though I have yet to come up with something better. I definitely agree with the other things you say though. Some people really do love trying to force their beliefs and definitions onto others, even when such can be objectively proven wrong or are too subjective to be relevant. Accept only your own definition of yourself.
I use both terms. As you can see by my avatar, I use "Transsexual" but I declare that I'm transgender. Since that I am finally transitioning, I use "Transsexual" as my current status and "Transgender" as my condition. I am not offended by either of those terms. :icon_hug:
Joelene
I reserve the right to be complicated!
Julie
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 05, 2011, 05:32:08 PM
This whole post really boils down to two things (1) Define yourself for yourself. (2)Accept other people's definition of themselves. I have come to realise than human beings love, absolutely crave telling other people what to do, how to behave and how to think of themselves. Define yourself, seek your own truth and don't crowbar yourself into anyone else's definition of what a transsexual, transgender, ->-bleeped-<-, androgyne should be.
Be good to yourself and to others as you'd have them do to you. Love it!!! ;D
When I do lectures or guest speaking engagements, I use the word "transgender." It's just my personal preference as I don't care for "transsexual."
But, to each their own.
Bottom line of this whole transgender/transsexual debate is to use whatever term you want but don't preach it or proselytize it to others....and certainly don't make the other label user seem "not a real ts girl" because she doesn't use yours (I REALLY HATE THAT) LOL.
while there may be some overlap, I do not view them as synomous. However, I also believe I have made my views clear in other threads related to the subject.
I never was and never will consider myself as or having been 'transgendered.' I also do not consider myself to presently be transsexual...although I did previously have a transsexual medical condition that was remedied via medical intervention.
I'm biased towards transgender as a general overall term, since it's much more the normal word here in the UK (it's the "official" medical term here) and so people are more familiar with it as a concept - but when talking about myself, I avoid identity labels and talk about what's happening instead, by saying "I'm going through a gender transition" and only giving further details if required and as they apply to me specifically.
I've met people who are adamant that now that they've transitioned, they're no longer trans-anything. I've also met people for whom it's an important and happy part of their identity to describe themselves as trans even though they completed their transition decades ago. Both are fine with me.
I'm in the "words mean things" camp.
It's not for me about relative standing or relative rights and it's sure not about some long twisted sordid history of political machinations between warring camps over the last....15 years?
It's just - certain things are described in certain ways. one can call a penis an antler but ultimately it's a penis.
another infrequent visit by me.... ;D
i have just always seen trangender as pre op and transexual as post op.. but that said all in all i agree with the original post would be nice if the world would just refer to us as "her" and "she" but if i have to choose a tag it would be transgender even tho i still go out as a "guy", except to friends houses. i am she more and more and more and my wife is even now supporting my desire to start HRT properly. I have been using natural and herbal remedies to fix the body problem up til now...
does anyone use twitter? i recently started to use it and use the tag iamshe2011 if anyone wants to follow my ramblings
I personally believe this is an incredably important point, simply because how we define ourselves is how we deal with the world. If we can't deal with the world unitied, then the world will simply tear us apart.
I don't like the term transsexual since it implies that our motivation is sexual. I suggest our motivation is not sexual, it is social.
I'm really pleased for those that achieve any degrees of success, from taking the first step to self awareness, to the point of full transision and complete acceptance by those around you. I do fully understand that, when you have achieved th later, you prefer to put the past behind you, either to forget about it, or to treat it as a part of your past that is past.
But not everyone has had that degree of success.
I think more often then not it is fear of introperseptive analasis causes people to never delve deeper into there psyche then there surface emotions. By never knowing themselfs thay pass jugment on outsiders as a source of self enlightenment. I have come to the truth of Nietchze's "Of the camel, the lion, and the babe."
Quote from: spacial on July 08, 2011, 06:56:44 AM
I don't like the term transsexual since it implies that our motivation is sexual. I suggest our motivation is not sexual, it is social.
That is why I do not use the word transsexual either
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 12:11:21 PM
If a transsexual person calls themsrlf transgender and then has surgeries, does that tell the public this is what transgender people do?
not in my experiences. When i explain I am transgender and tell them that it is an umbrella term for many different gender types but I simply prefer "transgender" it doesn't convey to those I talk to that everyone does the same thing I do.
If anything, the public is mostly confused on why they say one word to one TS/TG and the TS/TG gets offended but that same offending word to another TS/TG, that TS/TG is fine with.
It's our (TS/TG) internal debate of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable within our very own social and gender groups as a TS/TG people that confuses the public the most.
I didn't change my gender. I changed my sex. By the very nature of the medical intervention, there WAS a sexual component to what was done to remedy the birth defect.
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 12:57:43 PM
So a person having SRS to change their sex is not a transsexual?
yes they are. But so is a Post op transgender or a "woman" (in stealth who doesn't use the word transsexual, transgender, or anything other than woman)
Webster definition of transgender:
: of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth So in my opinion, one can use Transsexual or transgender. It doesn't matter.
The thing that does matter is be true to yourself.
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 12:11:21 PM
If a transsexual person calls themsrlf transgender and then has surgeries, does that tell the public this is what transgender people do? Maybe for many transgender people, they dont approve of that portrayal and misrepresents them.
With respect Valerie, this is where you lose me completely.
Why would you want to tell anyone?
Why are you looking for a label?
The point of transgender is that it is an expression of solidarity and support for all of those struggling with their gender identity, however much or however successfully they have dealt with it.
I will hope that all those struggling can feel comfortable and free to discuss their problems and issues with those who understand. Susans' is a great place to do this, because we can all feel that anonimity we usually need and know there is no judgement.
As for the rest of society, all we need from them is acceptance that we are valid individuals who have a valid contribution to make to the world.
I come at this issue from an old-timer's perspective. Over the fourteen years I've come and gone at Susan's, one or another part of the community has rejected other parts. Early on, a lot of CDs didn't want TSs here. Later it was TSs who rejected CDs. Now this "Borg collective" idea is all the rage.
The constant in this, that I have always reached for, and I know that I am on the same page as Susan in this, is that Susan's is a place for every member of the trans-community, whether CD, TS, MtF, FtM, androgyn, TG, or other. And since the beginning of my time here "transgender" has been the term used to be inclusive of all those groups.
For those who want to erase that term and split up the community that has grown here and other places, remember that the conservative right has been using the "divide and conquer" strategy for a number of years. Do you really want to do their work for them?
And I identify with these terms: Woman, TS, MtF, and TG. None of them excludes the others.
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 02:15:03 PM
I am just trying to understand what is wrong with the word transsexual.
Well I can tell you what I don't like about it. The prefix "trans" indicates moving from one state to another, and while I can see how some people may think this, it is not true, at least not for everyone. I have always been me, regardless of whatever body I may be forced to inhabit for this life. I'm not changing anything about myself either, other than those things about a person that always change slowly throughout one's life such as one's outlook, beliefs, opinions, etc. Everyone has those kinds of changes though and who a person is usually remains mostly the same in those cases, so it makes sense to ignore those kinds of changes in context. Thus, fundamentally, I'm the same person I have always been, including my sex/gender.
I must admit that as yet I haven't been able to think of a better term but that doesn't mean that this one is very good either.
I don't understand the fuss what is a name? No matter what you call me I am still me as for a batter term how about my favarite "human" love carlie xoxoxo
Kia Ora,
::) When it comes to the "transsexual/transgender" debate, how about a compromise ? "transsexder"- "transgenual" or perhaps "transsexgen" -"transgensex" ::) ;)
Call me old fashion but I personally am quite happy with the good old girl/female/woman or boy/male/man label...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Annah on July 08, 2011, 11:45:35 AM
That is why I do not use the word transsexual either
I went through that phase for a while but ultimately, I fell like I'm stuck in the paradigm of the previously existing words. I had to go back to the premise "words mean things" and those two words already had pretty clear meanings (when stripped of the maneuvering)
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 08, 2011, 02:06:55 PM
I come at this issue from an old-timer's perspective. Over the fourteen years I've come and gone at Susan's, one or another part of the community has rejected other parts. Early on, a lot of CDs didn't want TSs here. Later it was TSs who rejected CDs. Now this "Borg collective" idea is all the rage.
The constant in this, that I have always reached for, and I know that I am on the same page as Susan in this, is that Susan's is a place for every member of the trans-community, whether CD, TS, MtF, FtM, androgyn, TG, or other. And since the beginning of my time here "transgender" has been the term used to be inclusive of all those groups.
For those who want to erase that term and split up the community that has grown here and other places, remember that the conservative right has been using the "divide and conquer" strategy for a number of years. Do you really want to do their work for them?
And I identify with these terms: Woman, TS, MtF, and TG. None of them excludes the others.
My position is that i am TS and that i am allied wherever possible with TG people and with LBG people.
I am not divided by them because I respect the language. Just as an intersex person is not a CD, and a androgynous person is not a drag queen.
Or perhaps more accurately, a transgender person is not (necesarily) a homosexual person, so they have different labels even though they (theoretically) are allies.
if a TG and a G/L can be strong allies while having different labels, why can't a TS and a TG?
Quote from: spacial on July 08, 2011, 01:21:50 PM
With respect Valerie, this is where you lose me completely.
Why would you want to tell anyone?
Why are you looking for a label?
This falls under "actions speak louder than words. You don't HAVE to tell society something verbally - they (WE!) make assumptions and it's human nature.
there's not a thing you or i or anyone else with our noblest intentions can do about it.
don't believe me?
Start a thread titled "Susan's, what do you think about Republicans?" and see what kind of answers you get.
or use "Christians" instead.
I guarantee you 90% of what is said about those people who are not those people, will be assumptions made based on perceptions drawn from words and actions. No one who thinks, for instance, that Republicans are bigots ever heard a Republican say "Yes, we're bigots, what of it?"
You may long for a world that's not like that - but it's not, and never will be, THIS world.
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 02:15:03 PM
I am just trying to understand what is wrong with the word transsexual.
There's nothing wrong with that word or any other.
But we do need to be careful to always use terminology and attitudes that are all inclusive.
Our association is with those who have or had the same problems as we do. The problem was/is, how our assigned gender is out of keeping with our personal feelings and needs. How society relates to that and how society relates to our personal struggle to deal with it.
That problem doesn't change, no matter what stage of transision we achieve. Personal experiences differ, but essentially, the problem is the same for all of us, our assigned gender and the problems we all have in dealing with it.
My concern with this and any other of the many analysies which appear from time to time, is when they may seek to exclude some. When they may say that one section of our community is having specific problems which don't affect another.
If we are all in this together, as we should, then we share experiences, we share problems, we look for solutions and share our successes and failures. Those that have achieved, what most hope to, full transision, full acceptance, are still facing the same problems as those that haven't begun.
I will be happy with any term, as long as the emaphasis is always on inclusion.
Quote from: spacial on July 09, 2011, 07:02:34 AM
There's nothing wrong with that word or any other.
But we do need to be careful to always use terminology and attitudes that are all inclusive.
If I choose to use a term that MOST APPROPRIATELY describes ME and MY PAST MEDICAL HISTORY, I have ZERO obligation to use some 'inclusive' term that DOES NOT APPLY to me.
QuoteOur association is with those who have or had the same problems as we do. The problem was/is, how our assigned gender is out of keeping with our personal feelings and needs. How society relates to that and how society relates to our personal struggle to deal with it.
Gotta disagree there. But as usual, it will do no good to expound yet again since the minority voice gets drowned out on this subject as those in favor of the 'transgender' term choose to ignore the feelings, beliefs and experiences of the post-op.
QuoteIf we are all in this together, as we should, then we share experiences, we share problems, we look for solutions and share our successes and failures. Those that have achieved, what most hope to, full transision, full acceptance, are still facing the same problems as those that haven't begun.
I will be happy with any term, as long as the emaphasis is always on inclusion.
As noted earlier, there may be SOME measure of overlap, but the issues and experiences of the operative track are not shared with the person who has no desire for surgery (whatever the reason might be for not having surgery). One group has a medical issue while the other is choosing to be variant...
When I first entered into therapy (obviously because of my mental disorder) I chose a therapist who had very good reviews from the T community. She is lesbian and she is Mensa. And she does her homework.
When the whole label thing came up she deferred to clinical definitions as they applied at the time (about six years ago.) Some of this may have changed but here's how she defined the "TG Spectrum"
Fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-: Someone who crossdresses as a fetish
Crossdresser: Crossdresses out of need but has no desire to change physical gender
Transgender: Someone with "one shoe in each camp". Needs both aspects in his/her life. The most difficult place to be on the spectrum.
Transsexual: Someone who wishes to physically change genders.
That's a nutshell from memory. She also said it's a spectrum and one can fall anywhere in between any of the four categories. (Interesting thread on this from 2005.) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=1492.0) She then went on to say "transgender" is also used as an umbrella term so one needs to define the word when using it.
Personally I don't like "transsexual" because of the negative stigma it has. I use "transgender" when referring to myself.
While I don't feel it's appropriate to share my... observations on this debate (I have no opinion one way or the other), I would like to pose a question if I may, just for my own clarification.
Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?
Transgender: Someone with "one shoe in each camp". Needs both aspects in his/her life. The most difficult place to be on the spectrum. [ Hmm I am not sure I agree with this. I don't need to be male. I do have a young man in my mind who lets my female side be the dominant personality. However, this young male is wise beyond his years and as I have written before he gives me good sage like advice. He advocates caution and not rushing into irrevocable things, e.g. not telling complete strangers all about me. That is not to say my strong female side is goofy, or daft or thoughtless, she isn't. It is just that she thinks that everyone will be kind and sympathetic towards her, which of course will not always be the case and this is where the young man comes in.]
Transsexual: Someone who wishes to physically change genders. [ While I am actively considering electrolysis or laser treatment I don't believe in FFS at all. My circumstances are that full SRS wouldn't help me to pass any more than I do now. I have come to accept that. That is why I am very keen to define myself for myself and simply not buy into the pre-packaged, one-size fits all, TS package deal. Having said that I would like to develop breasts and an orchiectomy (sp?) is not entirely out of the question, but it is at the moment the last on my list of possibilities. I am still young so I might meet someone and want to have children with her. You see I do imagine myself as being a lesbian partner/wife who just happens to be the co-mother/father of her children. Well I did say that I was complicated. ] :o :laugh:
:laugh:
Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
While I don't feel it's appropriate to share my... observations on this debate (I have no opinion one way or the other), I would like to pose a question if I may, just for my own clarification.
Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?
good question.
In my experiences i have seen both sides of the coin in all perspectives.
For example, I am proud of my transgendered status. I have no desire to hide or suppress it and I am not ashamed of it. Matter of fact, I have been very blessed since I have come out of the closet. I also do a lot of activist work.
On that note, I use transgender.
On the other hand, I know other girls who do the same things I do. Who is proud of who they are and don't hide it and they call themselves transsexual.
Then ive seen girls who say its a birth defect call themselves transgendered and the same with the term transsexual.
So I really think its used all over the place.
Im really cool with both. Where I have an issue is when someone will say "transgender" or "transsexual" is the only way and if you use the other word then you really arent TS or you just got it wrong. That irritates me
Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as a means to an end" but I suppose one could make a distinction between those who incorporate it into their identity and those who don't. I think it is probably more complicated than that though. Personally I have the same feelings for both words: I don't like either one.
Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?
I can't really say I identify with either notion.
For my part, I see us all as starting from the same point. For some, the problems are overcome, with struggle.
For others, they are never overcome.
But we all start with the same problem. We offer each other support and sympathy because that is how any of us will, at best, succeed, at least, survive.
I count myself fortunate that I have reached a level of satisfaction. I am pleased and proud for those that have reached the stage where they consider themselves fully transisioned. I offer all of my love and support to those still struggling.
.
I never say I am a woman. I just am. It's not something that I need to talk about. People accept me for the person I am- a woman named Julie. (some family members notwithstanding)
Did I have an inconvenient way of arriving here? Sure did. It was a lot of work, and I've paid my dues.
The only time I would mention anything remotely Trans is when I'm talking to my partner about community issues. I've had to mention my past only a few times when correcting my financial or official records. After this was accomplished, trans anything became a thing of the past.
Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 08, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
I didn't change my gender. I changed my sex. By the very nature of the medical intervention, there WAS a sexual component to what was done to remedy the birth defect.
I hesitate to say I changed my sex since the brain is biological as well, even the most important part of one's biological sex; I do agree it's changing
some of one's biological sex.
Is there a need to separate transsexual from intersexual in the first place, other than to "protect" other IS people from being lumped up with a far less accepted subgroup?
Quote from: Inanna on July 12, 2011, 01:59:41 PM
I hesitate to say I changed my sex since the brain is biological as well, even the most important part of one's biological sex; I do agree it's changing some of one's biological sex.
Is there a need to separate transsexual from intersexual in the first place, other than to "protect" other IS people from being lumped up with a far less accepted subgroup?
well in the strictest sense of the medical terminology, intersex people are different than transgender/transsexual people.
Until it can be proven medically, that there is something tangible that shows why transgender/transsexual are what they are, you cannot merge intersex (which can be proven medically) to transgender/transsexual people. Also, many intersex people do not want to be labeled as trans anything...not because they are ashamed of trans but because it isn't who they are...even medically.
There also have been a growing trend among trans people to be tested to see if they are intersex. I believe this to be that they are ashamed of who they are and they want something tangible to identify themselves with. Not all trans people who desire to be tested to see if they are intersex are ashamed but from the majority of girls I met, they have mentioned that they wanted to be tested to show their families it just isn't in their heads and there is something "legitimate" going on.
Also, on the other hand, there is a small minority of intersex people (myself included) who do not mind using the word "transgender" because it is something we identify with. I grew up male with breasts, an ovary and a cervix but now I have crossed over the gender spectrum so now I am female. When I grew up, I considered myself to be both sexes at the same time. So for me, being intersex and using "transgender" is something I don't mind.
However, an intersex person who always identified male or female and always will continue to do so will be offended if you include them in the trans circle. Because the label does not describe them at all and merely make assumptions of that individual.
Quote from: Annah on July 12, 2011, 02:10:06 PM
well in the strictest sense of the medical terminology, intersex people are different than transgender/transsexual people.
Until it can be proven medically, that there is something tangible that shows why transgender/transsexual are what they are, you cannot merge intersex (which can be proven medically) to transgender/transsexual people.
There's more than one study demonstrating differences in the brains of TS from early fetal development. Even if this evidence had yet to be found, TS people themselves wouldn't need it to know that they were born with this unchangeable condition.
QuoteAlso, many intersex people do not want to be labeled as trans anything...not because they are ashamed of trans but because it isn't who they are...even medically.
...
However, an intersex person who always identified male or female and always will continue to do so will be offended if you include them in the trans circle. Because the label does not describe them at all and merely make assumptions of that individual.
I'm not saying TS should include IS, but IS should include TS (as a subgroup).
By the way, as TS my fully female identity has never changed. I did not at any point identify with my external sex, I only suppressed acting on my feelings until I actually aware of treatment existing when I was 20.
Quote from: Inanna on July 12, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
There's more than one study demonstrating differences in the brains of TS from early fetal development. Even if this evidence had yet to be found, TS people themselves wouldn't need it to know that they were born with this unchangeable condition.
There have been studies, yes. But none of it is conclusive yet.
QuoteI'm not saying TS should include IS, but IS should include TS (as a subgroup).
By the way, as TS my fully female identity has never changed. I did not at any point identify with my external sex, I only suppressed acting on my feelings until I actually aware of treatment existing when I was 20.
I understand. There are many spectrums of trans people. You got trans who said they were always female and then aligned their bodies, you got trans who never gave it much thought until they got older or after a divorce, you got trans who identified as male for one part of their lives and then switched over to female for the second half (or vice versa).
The diversity is so strong, its actually pretty neat to see.
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 09, 2011, 06:28:01 PM
I am not proud nor ashamed... I can only just be me.
Worth repeating.
Quote from: Annah on July 12, 2011, 09:07:27 PM
There have been studies, yes. But none of it is conclusive yet.
That's only because the human brain is much more complex than chromosomes or reproductive organs, which are easier to study from the outside.
I'm not waiting on the cisgendered world to unravel the deep mysteries of the brain before I get their approval to be considered born intersex.
Quote
I understand. There are many spectrums of trans people. You got trans who said they were always female and then aligned their bodies, you got trans who never gave it much thought until they got older or after a divorce, you got trans who identified as male for one part of their lives and then switched over to female for the second half (or vice versa).
People, both cis and trans, are born on different parts of the spectrum, and naturally some are closer to being both genders than only one. As it happened, my brain has "only one" even though I've certainly tried to have a dual gender identity to be okay with lingering male physical attributes - it never worked, even slightly. I don't think the brain's sex is fundamentally changing by gaining conscious awareness and acceptance of who we actually are.
Ive just read most of this topic and realized i am actually not genderqueer, i am transgender! According to what your saying here. :)
Boy oh boy, does it depend who you ask... :).
Quote from: Padma on July 13, 2011, 04:31:03 PM
Boy oh boy, does it depend who you ask... :).
Its all very confusing! Lines get blurred!
Quote from: ninjaboi on July 13, 2011, 04:51:57 PM
Its all very confusing! Lines get blurred!
That's because the lines are artificial, and hand-drawn :).
Quote from: Padma on July 13, 2011, 04:53:34 PM
That's because the lines are artificial, and hand-drawn :).
Yes! ;D I am
me, thats all i know.
Quote from: ninjaboi on July 13, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
Yes! ;D I am me, thats all i know.
Someone I rate a lot said once: it's not so much a question of becoming more
yourself, as of just stopping trying to be anyone else... :)
Quote from: Inanna on July 13, 2011, 08:15:30 AM
That's only because the human brain is much more complex than chromosomes or reproductive organs, which are easier to study from the outside.
I'm not waiting on the cisgendered world to unravel the deep mysteries of the brain before I get their approval to be considered born intersex.
There are already tests to see if you are intersex.....I was talking about the tests that are being developed to gauge transexuality in a person.
Currently, the medical definition between transsexual and intersex is very different. As I said earlier, some intersex people may object to you calling yourself intersex by being trans.
It's pretty iffy once you get down to it. XD I always saw transgender as the umbrella term, but most definitions I've seen of transsexual tend to give non-ops the middle finger. I don't really care to've been born with a more developed penis (that's all clits are, underdeveloped), I much rather'd been born with (and allowed to keep) some sort of intersex condition.
I think of myself as both, although namely transgender, but pretty much because I already see myself as male and male-bodied, despite the overabundance of estrogen and "female" reproductive organs. The transgender part just includes the genderqueer part of my ID. Although I don't think I'll ever see myself, even post-T, as someone who previously had a transsexual condition. I can completely see how a lot of people do, but I'd probably just see myself as intersex. (Which would probably be ideal to me in the first place.)
It seems like "Transsexual VS Transgender" in sorta-kinda in the same field as "Black VS African-[Country of Residence]". With the former, you have people saying they're the same and people saying they're not. With the latter, you have pretty much the same. "Transsexual? But you haven't had any surgeries!" "African-American? But you're white!" etc. ha. Everyone has a preference and is entitled to defining themselves however they please.
Quote from: Annah on July 14, 2011, 05:23:38 PM
Currently, the medical definition between transsexual and intersex is very different.
The "medical" definition of individuals with variant sexuality or gender has such a good track record, does it not?
QuoteAs I said earlier, some intersex people may object to you calling yourself intersex by being trans.
I suppose that is their problem. If anything, I object to this even being a serious point of contention. If someone actually believes TS is acquired rather than developed prenatally, I don't care to partake in convincing them otherwise.
Quote from: Inanna on July 15, 2011, 11:10:54 PM
The "medical" definition of individuals with variant sexuality or gender has such a good track record, does it not?
I suppose that is their problem. If anything, I object to this even being a serious point of contention. If someone actually believes TS is acquired rather than developed prenatally, I don't care to partake in convincing them otherwise.
it's not that it is their problem. Maybe I am not really explaining it well and that is my fault.
Right now, there is a clear medical difference between transgender/transsexual and intersex. While they both are related in terms of gender, they are still uniquely different from one another. It is like an Apple and an Orange. They both relate to each other in terms that they are both fruit but they are still very different from one another when compared side by side.
So it is not about who is comfortable with what term between intersex and transsexual. There's a major medical difference between the two.
I only stress this because there has been a growing number of transsexual people labeling themselves as intersex so that they can feel better about themselves or make it easier for others around them to deal with the transition. There is also a desire for transsexual people to want to have a less "contraversal" label and I really respect that but it is what it is. Intersex people are intersex. Trans people are trans.
I am a transgender woman who is not offended by either term. GENNEE
- The prefix inter- means between.
- In the womb, sexual differentiation permanently affects the path of development for the reproductive organs and structures of the brain.
If the fetal brain diverges in a direction opposite to their reproductive organs, the fetus is neither fully biologically male or female. In other words, they're between sexes. A term we use for that is "intersex". It's not a matter of who came up with or agrees with these labels, it's a matter of biology:
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132 (http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132)
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034)
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2808%2901087-1/abstract (http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2808%2901087-1/abstract)
http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2807%2901228-9/abstract (http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2807%2901228-9/abstract)
http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract (http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract)
You can find more studies at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism)
Quote from: gennee on July 16, 2011, 08:58:47 AM
I am a transgender woman who is not offended by either term. GENNEE
I am just like everyone else: completely, entirely, totally and indisputably unique.
For me the difference between transsexual and transgender really comes down to this. The transgender person while certainly not ruling out surgeries and feminisation procedures is not as fixated upon the techniques and procedures as the transsexual. Secondly, in my opinion the transsexual desires to undergo the whole gamut of surgeries and procedures currently available and is keen for yet more surgical procedures to become available. The transgender person prefers on the whole to pick-and-mix what he/she has done. This is just my opinion so please feel free to express your own opinion. :)
Honestly, and just because I don't beat around the bush, I'll say it outright; I use Transgender and Transsexual almost as the same term and I usually forget to separate them.
But at the end of the day, I do believe that Transgender applies to a few concepts, like "proudly passing without medical intervention" or "acting like the gender and not medically being the sex".
And then I believe that Transsexual often applies to concepts like "truly needing medical intervention to pass" or "proudly doing every medical step needed to make me feel like the sex I want to be."
The controversy is behind the psychology of appearance. GID peoples who are born Androgynous-looking in terms of biological body and facial traits usually have less severe levels of stress because they are already able to socially pass or identify physically (facially and sometimes body wise) with something other than strictly their biological sex, while people who are very strictly born looking like their biological sex (extremely masculine, extremely female) often have much harder times coping with that type of canvas. The result is that naturally Androgynous people with GID tend to have a much lower drive to medically transition (and many of them proudly refuse medical transitioning), while the patients with extreme bodies and faces tend to want the medical transition full force and are very proud to medically leave the days of "looking a Caveman" behind them.
But of coarse, that's by no means a guideline or even a full definition, it's just a pattern that has been pointed out by many professionals.
I'm no expert here but seems transgendered means being on gender on the inside and the other gender on the outside. Transsexuals are those who take on the other gender's physical sexual characteristics. Now I have heard some say that one is not transsexual until they have had GRS so I don't know that breast development of the opposite gender would count. That being said, I don't really care. I just don't like being thought of as a gay male, though I would be happy to be thought of as a lesbian female. I don't like the term ->-bleeped-<- either, as to me it implies a ->-bleeped-<-, a man happy to be a man but likes to play as a female sometimes. But that's just me. No offense to anyone that thinks differently. The most impt thing is to be true to who you really are and not be caught up in labels. Love, Rachael
Quote from: RhinoP on July 17, 2011, 02:35:12 AM
Honestly, and just because I don't beat around the bush, I'll say it outright; I use Transgender and Transsexual almost as the same term and I usually forget to separate them.
But at the end of the day, I do believe that Transgender applies to a few concepts, like "proudly passing without medical intervention" or "acting like the gender and not medically being the sex".
And then I believe that Transsexual often applies to concepts like "truly needing medical intervention to pass" or "proudly doing every medical step needed to make me feel like the sex I want to be."
The controversy is behind the psychology of appearance. GID peoples who are born Androgynous-looking in terms of biological body and facial traits usually have less severe levels of stress because they are already able to socially pass or identify physically (facially and sometimes body wise) with something other than strictly their biological sex, while people who are very strictly born looking like their biological sex (extremely masculine, extremely female) often have much harder times coping with that type of canvas. The result is that naturally Androgynous people with GID tend to have a much lower drive to medically transition (and many of them proudly refuse medical transitioning), while the patients with extreme bodies and faces tend to want the medical transition full force and are very proud to medically leave the days of "looking a Caveman" behind them.
But of coarse, that's by no means a guideline or even a full definition, it's just a pattern that has been pointed out by many professionals.
I agree with a lot of the above RhinoP. This afternoon the thunder rumbled, the skies grew slate gray, lightening flashed, and the rain bounced off the ground. This type of weather always puts me into a contemplative mood. One of the things that I realised today is that being very young I don't have to rush into things as it were. I have up until now over-looked the fact that there are people here who are 20, 30, 40 years older than me. They feel 'Time's winged chariot ' drawing near and this lights a fire under them. They think if I don't undergo all these procedures in the next year or two I probably never will. Age, and the awareness of the passing of time combined with an increasing awareness of so much lost time and opportunities squandered can be powerful factors in considering if one is a transsexual or a transgender.
Wow! I came across this powerful and very appropriate quote from Dr Thomas Szasz one of the leading lights in the anti-psychiatric movement.
" In the animal kingdom, the rule is, eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom, define or be defined."
Thomas Szasz
Quote from: RhinoP on July 17, 2011, 02:35:12 AM
The controversy is behind the psychology of appearance. GID peoples who are born Androgynous-looking in terms of biological body and facial traits usually have less severe levels of stress because they are already able to socially pass or identify physically (facially and sometimes body wise) with something other than strictly their biological sex, while people who are very strictly born looking like their biological sex (extremely masculine, extremely female) often have much harder times coping with that type of canvas. The result is that naturally Androgynous people with GID tend to have a much lower drive to medically transition (and many of them proudly refuse medical transitioning), while the patients with extreme bodies and faces tend to want the medical transition full force and are very proud to medically leave the days of "looking a Caveman" behind them.
But of coarse, that's by no means a guideline or even a full definition, it's just a pattern that has been pointed out by many professionals.
I think that's blatantly unfair and doesn't reflect any professional opinion I've ever read.
The psychology is much more individualized than you give credit for. I'm not going to go into any false modesty here: I'm genetically lucky. When I started hormones seven months ago (at 33 years old), I had no hair loss, a small frame, only half the facial hair of a normal guy, not a single body hair, no adam's apple, feminine arms, small nose, and a high voice. After just two months on HRT, I passed so well that people were shocked when they saw my license, and some people openly questioned my identity as they stood two feet from me inspecting every feature for recognition of a male beneath the surface. Now, after seven months, I blend in as if I was any other girl and noone ever thinks twice. So no false modesty... I pass, and I pass damn well.
But you know what? That's a fluke of genetics, not something I did. Sure, I pluck my eyebrows. Sure, I take great care of my skin. Sure, I've had a lot of facial hair removal (laser and electrolysis). I primp and I preen and I make myself appear date-worthy.
What's that? Date-worthy? Yes, I'm lonely. I haven't been with anyone in over three years (not even a single date) and I've only had sex six times in my whole life (once with my first girlfriend, the rest with my ex-wife). I only ever dated five people in my entire life, including my ex. Want to know why? Because I hate what you can't see below my clothing. How can I be with a guy as a woman when I have what I have down there? I really want to date, but would I ever find a guy that open-minded? One who won't want sex at all until I've been corrected?
And I'm currently unemployed and am $60k in debt from student loans. My basic bills are $2000/month, which means I need to clear $24k/year just to break even. That's basically an unattainable salary with my educational background (two bachelor's degrees in fields that aren't exactly in demand). So when will I ever get to have surgery? When will I ever get to fix my body so I don't have to be lonely anymore? What if this economy goes into another recession next year like experts keep saying is very likely? I'm making NO progress toward surgery, much less being able to pay off my current obligations. I'm despondent, I'm depressed, I'm desperate. I pass, yes. But it's not enough... nothing short of surgery is going to be enough to make me feel comfortable in my own skin.
So saying that we androgynous people have low surgical drive...? Think again.
Hi Valerie :) in your statement above 'Altering your biological sex...' You have unconsciously implied that before pills and surgeries existed there were no transsexuals. This is as I am sure you appreciate can't be true transsexualism isn't a 20th/21st century phenomenon. History is replete with people whose attitude demeanour and general behaviour appear identical to transsexuality. In Great Britain mtf's were commonly mistaken for gay men. If you look up 'Mollies' and 'Mollie-houses' you can see that these people were not homosexual in the general public's understanding of that term. Mollies lived, dressed and acted like women. ]
I don't hate my penis, but I don't love it either. I have never used it for anything else but urination. I have never fantasised about penetrating a woman,. My penis is small and stubby like a Cherub's. I have a surprisingly flat front even when wearing close fitting panties. Because I have such a small unobtrusive penis I never came to hate it, perhaps I would have felt different if it had being bigger. Everyone's experience varies from the norm. Jung or was it Freud once noted that you could gather up many hundreds of pebbles from a beach and find out that the average weight of the pebbles was half-an-ounce. However he added it was highly likely that not one of those pebbles actually weighed exactly half-an-ounce. My point? There is always variation around the Mean.
Zoe raises an interesting point. What if a person simply isn't in a financial position to afford all these techniques, treatments and procedures? How many surgeries do you need to have undergone to be classified as a transsexual? Does the possession of a vagina trump everything else? Say I had a vagina but very little breast development, would that make me a woman, transsexual or transgender? Don't forget natal females from 12 onwards have breasts, breasts are just as integral to women as a vagina is. Perhaps more so as they are much more visible to the general everyday public than vaginas are. Imagine if I had a vagina, breasts, but was too tall for a woman or I had a particularly male face would I be a woman, transsexual or transgender person? Say I had breasts, and passed as female from a physical perspective (i.e. I looked and acted female) but crucially I had no vagina would that make me a woman, a transsexual or a transgender? Or, to labour the point, imagine I was all of the above and I had undergone an orchietectomy(sp?) but still had a penis, would that make me a ... Or, what if I had undergone everything but clumped about like a man, or had masculine mannerisms from years of living in the male role would I be a woman, transsexual or transgender?
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 18, 2011, 05:25:03 PM
Say I had a vagina but very little breast development, would that make me a woman, transsexual or transgender? Don't forget natal females from 12 onwards have breasts, breasts are just as integral to women as a vagina is. Perhaps more so as they are much more visible to the general everyday public than vaginas are.
And there are also plenty of natal women who have very little in the way of natural breast growth...which was one of the reasons we saw implants come into fashion a few decades back.
But to answer the question posed therein...IMO, two of the three apply, specifically woman and transsexual (well, actually FORMER transsexual since once the individual is post-operative, there ceases to be an identifiable medical condition presently recognized as transsexuality).
Quote from: Valeriedances on July 18, 2011, 06:09:17 AM
Surgery is needed to create a vagina. No amount of beauty is going to wish a penis away. That is where transsexualism comes in, the need for SRS or vaginoplasty for MtF's or removal of breasts for FtM's. There is no pride in it, it is an intense distate for someone's birth genitals or breasts. When it is corrected, there is relief.
Altering your biological sex is at the core of transsexualism, which is why sex is in the word. A person is trans-ing their biological sex. If you are not doing this or do not have a deep need to do this when abile, you are not a transsexual.
As far as appearance, many folks have vaginoplasty or breast removal surgery (in the case of FtM's), and transition with no facial surgeries ...and have no problem fitting into society. I didnt have any FFS, no rhinoplasty, nothing. Just a vagina and some lovely breasts. I also transitioned late in life (began at 48), so you younger folks arent the only ones who can pass well. Maybe that puts me in the androgynous camp, I dont know. I wasnt aware of androgyny prior to transitioning. I was just a pretty, feminine male. I identified as a transsexual during my transition. I was in the process of altering my biological sex. I am now female with a transsexual history.
I see no need for me to use the word transgender. I did not alter my gender (that doesnt make sense), but my physical sex characteristics.
all this makes obvious sense to me and describes me apart from the personal details (being on the front end of the process rather than the latter end)
the thing that just stuns me reading back over this thread is that almost every new post brings a new "definition" in the eyes of the person posting. What seems to me to be a patently obvious distinction apparently can't be seen at all by many of my peers, which I find disquieting.
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 18, 2011, 05:06:19 PM
Hi Valerie :) in your statement above 'Altering your biological sex...' You have unconsciously implied that before pills and surgeries existed there were no transsexuals. This is as I am sure you appreciate can't be true transsexualism isn't a 20th/21st century phenomenon.
not to disrespect the balance of your point, but surely that would be covered by the caveat "they would if they could", no?
Quote from: RhinoP on July 17, 2011, 02:35:12 AM
But at the end of the day, I do believe that Transgender applies to a few concepts, like "proudly passing without medical intervention" or "acting like the gender and not medically being the sex".
And then I believe that Transsexual often applies to concepts like "truly needing medical intervention to pass" or "proudly doing every medical step needed to make me feel like the sex I want to be."
The controversy is behind the psychology of appearance. GID peoples who are born Androgynous-looking in terms of biological body and facial traits usually have less severe levels of stress because they are already able to socially pass or identify physically (facially and sometimes body wise) with something other than strictly their biological sex, while people who are very strictly born looking like their biological sex (extremely masculine, extremely female) often have much harder times coping with that type of canvas. The result is that naturally Androgynous people with GID tend to have a much lower drive to medically transition (and many of them proudly refuse medical transitioning), while the patients with extreme bodies and faces tend to want the medical transition full force and are very proud to medically leave the days of "looking a Caveman" behind them.
But of coarse, that's by no means a guideline or even a full definition, it's just a pattern that has been pointed out by many professionals.
that is so incorrect on so many levels. Transgender does not mean you pass better while transsexuals mean you have to go through a lot of surgeries to get to the point of a transgender.
It is also grossly inaccurate to say trans people who "passes better" do not suffer from GID as much as one who does not passes easily. So many girls have committed suicide because of their GID and many of the passed so well they can go to stealth.
Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 19, 2011, 03:33:30 AM
not to disrespect the balance of your point, but surely that would be covered by the caveat "they would if they could", no?
That is just an assumption that unfortunately cannot be proved one way or the other.
I really like the original post. Good stuff. I go back and forth between the terms. I feel like if I like something, it is not against the law, I am going to do it. If someone else likes whatever they like they are going to do whatever it is. So being a T is no different. I like going by both because I feel like saying transsexual is a little deeper sometimes and other times I say transgendered for several reasons but mainly because I haven't gone through a sex change and I feel like I identify with that one a little more now and then plus it is just easier to say more often than not. Like with my mom, will never say the word transsexual as quickly as she is fine with repeating over and over and over transgendered.
O yea, and most importantly and most of all; I go by woman, 100% female, I mean when it gets right down to it- the reason the way that I am is not so I can be something "in-the-middle" or different. Truth is I just want to fit in and live my life like any other girl lives.