So in order for us to have top surgery we must attend so many therapy sessions before we can get a note to indicate that we are ready to have the surgery, this also includes bottom as well.
While it's ok for people like Michael Jackson to get as many cosmetic surgeries as he wants without being ordered to go to countless of therapy sessions to get a note. With so many surgeries that I considered to be unnecessary (sorry but I truly think it was, since I found no deformity on his face) he was able to get them.
Prior to his death he went from looking like this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthreeminutesthirtyseconds.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2Fmichael_jackson.jpg&hash=03c2c322f42eb87a18d61a7b298db926d7a9a8dc)
To being this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boiseweekly.com%2Fimages%2Fblogimages%2F2009%2F08%2F21%2F1250886166-michael_jackson.jpg&hash=5393db91e2db79decb9ecda304c939a0bf9e3f33)
I just bumped into this page http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10005422.html?tag=re1.galleries (http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10005422.html?tag=re1.galleries) and notice this mug shot
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.i.com.com%2Fcnwk.1d%2Fi%2Ftim%2F2010%2F11%2F03%2FJesse-Thornhill008.jpg&hash=9ea858456883dafd979d82c403e56df67f8ed9f4)
So my question is this. We have to essentially be examined by mental health professionals to determine if we are mentally stable to have surgery that can improve the quality of our lives yet people like Michael Jackson and this guy are allowed to do things to their faces without getting a mental health consultation? How does that work?
When I look at these kind of picture I can't help but to get pissed off!
It is upsetting. I think the last guy really should have his mind checked out. Who in their right mind would do that?
Nobody in the right stage of mind would do anything like that to their faces. This guy is literally scarred for life as a result of his decisions to do this to his face.
And if you thought the guy was messed up take a look at this one
The World's ... And Me | Cat Man | Channel 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ7zyNnEeyM#)
I bet all of that could have been prevented if his parents just let him have a cat as a child.
I generally approve of trans people going through phycological steps because then surgeries can be covered by insurance, since it is a medical procedure. I agree that if you are paying out of pocket that you shouldn't need such an assessment.
But please don't get all judge-y on people. It's their body, they can do what they want with it. Just because you think it makes them "ugly" or something similar doesn't matter. They aren't doing it for you.
I have nothing aganst people doing plastic surgery or anything like that, its there body and there choise to do what they want with it and how they want it too look,
but yeah its pretty messed up how theres so many things we can do when being trans is so limited.
it might be posible for us not only to make sex chance surgery, but as well surgerys making people half man/half women, or making mens pregnent, and so on,
I think sience can do alot more than what is the caise today,
but I think playing with gender is such big tabuu that people limit it as much as posible to reseach or to try it on.
I couldn't watch the vid just to aaahhh yeah gross. I agree just get a cat and be just fine.
Me thinks their answer would be similar to ours "we weren't happy as we were, and are happier as we now are. It's our bodies, we can do what we want"
im sure some people also think we are wierd and groose for what we do to our body, but as long we are happy thats what matters,
I feel the same for the cat man and other people like that.
I always find it interesting every time someone who complains that other people judge them based on their appearance (gender, etc.) has absolutely no problem judging someone else based on their appearance. Double standards, much?
Not so much a matter of judging what they do to their bodies. It's unfair we have to have mental health ok for us to do it and not them. Great for them wanting to do it I don't get it but hey its not my face. I have to agree if I'm paying totally out of pocket for surgery than why should I need a doc letter, which I'm also paying for out of pocket?
Some doctors do not require a letter from a therapist (at least for top surgery). I think that a therapist's letter shouldn't be needed for surgery or body mods.
I guess my question is are you mad at these people for having body mods, or are you mad at the medical system which oppresses trans people constantly?
Quote from: Kayla on September 02, 2011, 04:42:29 PM
Me thinks their answer would be similar to ours "we weren't happy as we were, and are happier as we now are. It's our bodies, we can do what we want"
Agreed, for the most part. What bothers me about it is exactly what OP said, though. MJ, not so much, because he had ridiculous amounts of money and probably could've paid to be turned in a centaur if the science existed.
I didn't need a therapist or a letter or any of that crap for T or surgery.
I just had a consultation with an endo and got T the same day, and then had a consultation with a surgeon and then booked a time. :-\
I thought Michael Jackson was a burn victim?
Quote from: brandnewman on September 02, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
I always find it interesting every time someone who complains that other people judge them based on their appearance (gender, etc.) has absolutely no problem judging someone else based on their appearance. Double standards, much?
This. This x 100000. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yes, it's unfair that our system is set up the way it is, but the things being said about people who undergo extreme body modifications (such as the guy in the mugshot and the "cat man") are the same exact sort of things that uneducated people say about trans folks.
Although mine are not quite as extreme as the examples in this thread, I am heavily tattooed and also have piercings/stretched ears/etc. And yes, I am in my "right mind" and do not see myself as "scarred for life" because I am fond of such things.
Da Monkey how did you go about finding both that didn't need a letter??
If people want to adopt a child, even an older child, they have to jump through an amazing amount of hoops.
Whereas any drug addicts could get themselves knocked up. We are not the only ones who have it rough.
By the way, I think should be therapists involved before any major elective cosmetic surgery.
That includes letters for lizard and cat people.
I agree it's messed up. But I think MJ had vitiligo and had no control over his skin pigment changing.
I wish Michael Jackson was seeing a therapist......
Quote from: SnailPace on September 02, 2011, 04:21:22 PM
I generally approve of trans people going through phycological steps because then surgeries can be covered by insurance, since it is a medical procedure. I agree that if you are paying out of pocket that you shouldn't need such an assessment.
But please don't get all judge-y on people. It's their body, they can do what they want with it. Just because you think it makes them "ugly" or something similar doesn't matter. They aren't doing it for you.
This.
We're all gonna have a wide variety of opinions on this topic ... isn't it fun! ;)
Anyway, I'm sure wanting to be a cat and/or lizard person could certainly, by some psychological standards, be considered "not normal". However, there exists this little magic book that the psychologists use and Transsexualism, ->-bleeped-<-, GID, etc. ARE in it, whereas lizard people are not. That is the difference when you come down to brass tacks.
And since most of humanity as a whole has not gotten over the whole gender binary thing, it's a total hot button and is quite "messy" in that it spills out into other arenas. For instance - all the gender-designated public areas ... restrooms, dressing rooms, locker rooms. Also, legal issues that involve gender to a degree - birth certificates, marriage licenses (marriages in general), medical records, etc. etc.
If you want to go lizard, it's really quite simple - you just go down to the tattoo/body mod place and walk out a "freak" ... you're labeled as such by the rest of society and you live with it. You don't have to change your ID or worry about what bathroom to use or who you can marry. Simple.
Same goes for people who want a different nose or bigger tits or anything else that enough money and a plastic surgeon can handle. You're not changing anything "legal" about yourself, just your appearance.
Yes it's majorly screwed up. I had been living full time as a woman for over 3 years and was required to see a therapist for over 2 months and multiple visits to determine if I was transgendered enough to get HRT. Uh HELLO PEOPLE I have been living as a woman full time for 3 YEARS, don't you think I might be ready for HRT now? I had no problem having some facial feminization done with no letter but God forbid I want my body feminized.
So now I have been officially diagnosed as having a mental disorder. This will likely affect my ability to get health insurance etc in the future over this crap. I had NO mental issues with being transgendered, I just wanted to try HRT legally. And the sad thing is: at least on the MTF side there are a LOT of TG people fighting to keep it this way???? O.o
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 02, 2011, 06:45:58 PM
I wish Michael Jackson was seeing a therapist......
He did. Dr. Feelgood.
Joelene
Quote from: brandnewman on September 02, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
I always find it interesting every time someone who complains that other people judge them based on their appearance (gender, etc.) has absolutely no problem judging someone else based on their appearance. Double standards, much?
this. not to mention the fact that your aesthetics =/= everyone's aesthetics
Quote from: Matthew J. F on September 02, 2011, 03:37:20 PM
So in order for us to have top surgery we must attend so many therapy sessions before we can get a note to indicate that we are ready to have the surgery, this also includes bottom as well.
While it's ok for people like Michael Jackson to get as many cosmetic surgeries as he wants without being ordered to go to countless of therapy sessions to get a note. With so many surgeries that I considered to be unnecessary (sorry but I truly think it was, since I found no deformity on his face) he was able to get them.
Prior to his death he went from looking like this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthreeminutesthirtyseconds.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2Fmichael_jackson.jpg&hash=03c2c322f42eb87a18d61a7b298db926d7a9a8dc)
To being this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boiseweekly.com%2Fimages%2Fblogimages%2F2009%2F08%2F21%2F1250886166-michael_jackson.jpg&hash=5393db91e2db79decb9ecda304c939a0bf9e3f33)
I just bumped into this page http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10005422.html?tag=re1.galleries (http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10005422.html?tag=re1.galleries) and notice this mug shot
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.i.com.com%2Fcnwk.1d%2Fi%2Ftim%2F2010%2F11%2F03%2FJesse-Thornhill008.jpg&hash=9ea858456883dafd979d82c403e56df67f8ed9f4)
So my question is this. We have to essentially be examined by mental health professionals to determine if we are mentally stable to have surgery that can improve the quality of our lives yet people like Michael Jackson and this guy are allowed to do things to their faces without getting a mental health consultation? How does that work?
When I look at these kind of picture I can't help but to get pissed off!
In that first picture of Michael Jackson, he has already had plastic surgery.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F2ugkt8w.jpg&hash=365ba1169e5569f3919d040cb8fab566b1eac495)
Quote from: Nygeel on September 02, 2011, 05:36:45 PM
Some doctors do not require a letter from a therapist (at least for top surgery). I think that a therapist's letter shouldn't be needed for surgery or body mods.
I guess my question is are you mad at these people for having body mods, or are you mad at the medical system which oppresses trans people constantly?
It pisses me off that I have to pay out of my own pocket for these therapy sessions (which I don't have since I am currently disabled due medical reasoning, and unable to work because of it) just so that I can get approved of getting these surgeries (again It's extremely hard to fish out 5 thousand dollars and up when you're unable to work, and that so many insurance wont accept it) that are necessary, and can improve the quality of my life yet these people who want to change their entire appearance from being human to being a feline or a demon like creature probably don't have to spend 1 day in therapy to get these procedures done.
Additional.....
Have anyone heard of bride of wildenstein? It was told that she spent over 4 million dollars on plastic surgrry to end up looking like this.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3080%2F2285046239_656e40a95c.jpg&hash=10fe652015f51d827b814147f71b6c16e42b0915)
People like her, Michael Jackson, and that demon like guy probably have a legit mental illness that could have been avoid had they gone through the same mental health examination like the rest of us are required to have top/bottom surgery.
Quote from: sneakersjay on September 03, 2011, 08:37:12 AM
In that first picture of Michael Jackson, he has already had plastic surgery.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F2ugkt8w.jpg&hash=365ba1169e5569f3919d040cb8fab566b1eac495)
Wow he was hot too.
Quote from: Matthew J. F on September 03, 2011, 11:20:52 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3080%2F2285046239_656e40a95c.jpg&hash=10fe652015f51d827b814147f71b6c16e42b0915)
People like her, Michael Jackson, and that demon like guy probably have a legit mental illness that could have been avoid had they gone through the same mental health examination like the rest of us are required to have top/bottom surgery.
Ugh, I've seen pictures of her, she must get stares. I've shown pictures of her to my mom to show her the horrors of plastic surgery, she thinks they're photoshopped lawl
I thinks its a matter of money,
if you got alot of money then you can have as many surgery you want.
every surgery is a risk but having too many is diffently not good.
people with a normal amount of money might get 1 surgery like that in there life for something they felt REALLY sad about.
but people who got so many money that they can go correct every single detail dont think about it the same way so it actually dosent seam to matter so much to them.
What we have learned from this thread:
1) If you have enough money, the rules don't apply to you.
2) If you are a certifiable freak, the rules don't apply to you.
3) If you are a certifiable freak who wants to be normal, the rules apply to you.
4) If you are desperate enough and you can temporarily sustain condition 1) or 2) then the rules don't apply to you.
5) If you are normal, the rules apply to you.
Conclusion: If you are crazy enough, or filthy rich, then the rules don't apply to you.
I'm very much "my body, my choice." Don't like it, don't look.
I did find a guy that got hormones, top, and bottom surgery taken care of by medicaid so it can't be impossible.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on September 04, 2011, 12:12:28 AM
What we have learned from this thread:
1) If you have enough money, the rules don't apply to you.
2) If you are a certifiable freak, the rules don't apply to you.
3) If you are a certifiable freak who wants to be normal, the rules apply to you.
4) If you are desperate enough and you can temporarily sustain condition 1) or 2) then the rules don't apply to you.
5) If you are normal, the rules apply to you.
Conclusion: If you are crazy enough, or filthy rich, then the rules don't apply to you.
This I seen a lot of times with a lot of situations. I inherited my Dad's Neanderthal face, filled out by age. No amount of FFS or other plastic surgery is going change much here.
Joelene
UHH! Those people need their mental state evaluated!!! Hey, I love tattoos, I'd love to have my arms & legs covered with tatts, but all the piercings and body mod, doing that to your face, woah, that's just too much for me.
Quote from: hwytoaster on September 04, 2011, 12:31:07 AM
UHH! Those people need their mental state evaluated!!! Hey, I love tattoos, I'd love to have my arms & legs covered with tatts, but all the piercings and body mod, doing that to your face, woah, that's just too much for me.
You know I could find hundreds of negative posts online about transgendered people exactly like what you just posted. I really just don't get this......
Quote from: SnailPace on September 02, 2011, 04:21:22 PM
I generally approve of trans people going through phycological steps because then surgeries can be covered by insurance, since it is a medical procedure.
Most Americans still can't get their trans-related surgeries covered by insurance.
Quote from: Arch on September 04, 2011, 01:06:06 AM
Most Americans still can't get their trans-related surgeries covered by insurance.
And a LOT of Americans don't have any insurance, much less some deluxe plan that would ever actually cover this.
I've found procedures that insurance doesn't cover end up being priced reasonably because the doctors performing them KNOW people aren't going to pay absurd prices. Insurance in America doubles the workload of the doctor/staff trying to file/code/get paid. Then many times 6 months later they are still trying to get their money. My recent experience, I was on the table in the ER for 2 hours for cosmetic surgery and the hospital fees including anesthesia were $1400. They said if it was a "non-elective surgery" the hospital charges 3 times this much. I found the same thing true when I paid cash for knee surgery years ago, the doctor gave me a huge break ($1800 rather than $4800) but the hospital ganked me, charging full "insurance rates" of $5800 for a 1 hour operation. And that was 25 years ago.
We really would be much better off keeping insurance OUT of these procedures, at least in the US. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off without health insurance all together but that's another issue....
I agree that it's terrible that trans people frequently have to go to great lengths to be allowed surgery. However, I think anger about that would be better directed at the medical establishment (etc.) that maintains that status quo, rather than at other people who are lucky enough to be allowed to change their bodies how they want — whether you like the changes they made or not.
... and lo there was hypocrisy among the oppressed...
Seriously though, there are a couple things that irk the heck out of me regarding body modification.
A person can get "pectoral implants" and other silicone implants at their local plastic surgeon to "look" like they have more muscle, but in order to get the sort of implants this guy has, to create bumps and so on they have to go to someone who isn't a medical professional in most countries because "medical professionals" risk losing their license for "disfiguring" their patients.
Similarly, ear pointing v.s. 36MM (yes, MM) breasts (The world's largest fake breasts. 20 pounds Each!)
One a plastic surgeon is not allowed to do, the other a plastic surgeon "is" allowed to do.
(Care to guess which one will cause severe back pain among other problems?)
And in both the pectoral implants and 36MM cases, there was no 1 year RLE, no 3 months at the therapist's office.
I mean, I wouldn't want to look like Cat, but if Cat wants to look like that and is able to go for it, then more power to him for it!
It's not my place to judge.
But I do think it hypocritical, the system we have, and many of the comments we see regarding body mods from trans people.
Seriously.
It's not your place to judge what other people do with their own bodies!
(Mind you, I think more therapy should be required for more plastic surgeries and body mods to make sure the patients fully grasp what they're getting up to and are doing it for their own reasons, but that's just me and my opinion.)
Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 12:53:28 AM
You know I could find hundreds of negative posts online about transgendered people exactly like what you just posted. I really just don't get this......
This. I can't understand the amount of negativity towards other people's personal decisions regarding their body. Hypocritical if you ask me.
Those people became obsessed with altering their face and overdid it, they could live happy lives without it, it's not the same. Cosmetic surgery is fine in moderation, but they should've been smart enough to realise what effects of having too much of it would have.
That wasn't directed at the guy with horns, but his surgery shows what kind of personality he has.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 04, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
That wasn't directed at the guy with horns, but his surgery shows what kind of personality he has.
A horny personality? >:-)
Yeah a lot of people would lump transgendered people in with people like cat man. But, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say, I just want to be normal. I'm not having these surgeries just because I think it's cool or because I want to be a unique special snowflake. I need to transition to be able to live and function like a normal human being. It's possible for a human to have a male or female brain. It is not possible for a human to be born with the identity of a cat. If you feel the need to modify your body to the point where you can't live a normal life and don't even want to look human, then something is wrong.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 04, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
Those people became obsessed with altering their face and overdid it, they could live happy lives without it, it's not the same.
I know several TS women who have had multiples of different operations trying to 'perfect' their look. Two of them have had 3+ facial surgeries and honestly after the first one, they were pretty. Both had been on HRT for years and had decent breasts, well within normal female but got BA done. Both had srs and then a revision to that done and still weren't happy. They became "obsessed" with being a perfect example of the female form. They could have lived happy lives with a LOT less surgery and neither are happy with themselves to this day.
But who are we to judge what someone else needs or perceives to need to live a happy life? Would I do it myself? I would say no in all these cases but it's not for me to judge them or their choices.
I'm not sure at what point we are required to protect people from themselves, if ever. When you start to limit the choices people have, how can you say there is "freedom"? As long as they aren't hurting other people, it's their life. People who don't understand being transgendered could easily just as easily say "Stephe screwed up their life doing this stupid living as a woman thing"... It's NOT their choice to make! That goodness most people accepted I needed to do this and are OK with it.
I honestly feel it's up to the doctor to decide if he wants to do a procedure or not. If they want to have a therapist report saying "This person isn't crazy, this is what they want" before they do something, then they have a right to ask for it. I think it's simply wrong to DEMAND a doctor get this sort of report before they can move forward no matter what the case.
Quote from: Sharky on September 04, 2011, 06:00:36 PM
Yeah a lot of people would lump transgendered people in with people like cat man. But, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say, I just want to be normal. I'm not having these surgeries just because I think it's cool or because I want to be a unique special snowflake. I need to transition to be able to live and function like a normal human being. It's possible for a human to have a male or female brain. It is not possible for a human to be born with the identity of a cat. If you feel the need to modify your body to the point where you can't live a normal life and don't even want to look human, then something is wrong.
Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.
Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:01:37 PM
I'm not sure at what point we are required to protect people from themselves, if ever. When you start to limit the choices people have, how can you say there is "freedom"? As long as they aren't hurting other people, it's their life. People who don't understand being transgendered could easily just as easily say "Stephe screwed up their life doing this stupid living as a woman thing"... It's NOT their choice to make! That goodness most people accepted I needed to do this and are OK with it.
They should have the right to do whatever they want with their body, but that won't keep me from judging them.
While I sort of agree...
The truth is, look who you're using as an example. Michael Jackson, well, he was probably one of the richest musicians, if not the richest when he died. You'd be stupid to turn away that kind of money, no matter what they were offering it to you for. Most trans people like you and me don't have money like that.
Also...It's because it was 'Cosmetic,' where as SRS is classified as 'Medical,' He wasn't asking to change his identity or his gender *Which is still considered deviant and abnormal in many societies,*
And for the body modifier. Those procedures are not able to be done my medical professionals with a licence, it's unethical. Meaning that those modifications are done with no anesthetic whatsoever since they don't legally practice medicine.
I know where you're coming from, and it ticks me off too, but there are legal reasons as to why we have to get through so much ->-bleeped-<-. However, it's worth it, we have a longer road, but the trouble and the time are worth it to feel at home in your own skin, or so I think so.
Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:06:23 PM
Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.
This is what I was just thinking. What's "normal" varies from place to place anyways.
Quote from: Wesley_33 on September 02, 2011, 06:28:37 PM
Da Monkey how did you go about finding both that didn't need a letter??
I live in Canada? Hahah
Quote from: Wesley_33 on September 02, 2011, 06:28:37 PMDa Monkey how did you go about finding both that didn't need a letter??
In the U.S., you can get T through informed consent, and I've heard of a few surgeons that either don't require a letter or don't require a letter of everyone. A friend of mine told me that Brownstein doesn't require letters on a lot of cases and that Meltzer doesn't ask for a letter if you have an M on your DL. That's for top surgery; I don't know about other surgeries. Ask around.
Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:06:23 PM
Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.
I just came up with a thought: Most of us on this forum may be called dumb freaks of nature by others, but that is a lot better being a freak of your own stupidity!
Dumb = Mute; or a condition of nature suppressing part or parts the 'normal' human condition. This can be treated in various ways.
Stupid = A usually negative condition caused by the human brain overtly thinking in an odd way and cause a negative physical, written or oral action taken. This cannot be cured once the action is taken. Stupidity can be suppressed in the brain and the action not taken by using "common sense".
Joelene
Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.
There are plenty of people who look like a 'normal' man or woman and are insane. Someone having body modifications and such, doesn't make them insane. Some people like to look different, want to stand out, their bodies and faces are like a work of art. Other than that, they are pretty 'normal' people and they don't need protection from themselves.
I think it would be wise to be more prudent in stating what you think is insane because you really don't know.
I don't think he is an idiot. He knows he's a human male, he just wants to be cat-LIKE.
He is saying he is cat man, not a cat - the cat is an attribute to man. To say there is only men and women but not cats doesn't make sense in this situation unless he claims that he is really a cat born in a human body.
Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.
Normal, as a term, refers to the statistical commonality.
It's conforming to the "common" or "considered common".
As in, "normal" people are straight (as that's most common), cisgender (as that's most common), members of the country's most common religion (christianity in most of the western world), have 2 point something kids, and make a medium amount of money and so on and so forth.
If you make a list of all the statistically most "common" states for people to have, you'll have a "really big list" which no human being can conform to, not all of it.
We're all abnormal.
Now, It may be that Cat has a psychological disorder, but you can't "know" that by looking at his appearance.
If you were qualified however, you "could" ascertain through a series of interviews with the man, whether or not there is a psychological disorder in place and in that case what it is.
IF, you were qualified.
However, What I've learned of psychology so far is that unless one's life is negatively affected, one can not be considered "disordered".
If Cat is happy, healthy, makes a living, doesn't have any notable problems in his life that stem from his personal beliefs, however f-ed up they may appear to you, he is not disordered.
He's not "normal", no, but neither are you, neither am I.
You may not understand or agree with what he believes in or is doing, I don't, but that just means you shouldn't do it, doesn't mean you get to call him "insane".
There are people who call me "insane" cause I've transitioned.
Quote from: Da Monkey on September 08, 2011, 07:51:32 AM
I don't think he is an idiot. He knows he's a human male, he just wants to be cat-LIKE.
He is saying he is cat man, not a cat - the cat is an attribute to man. To say there is only men and women but not cats doesn't make sense in this situation unless he claims that he is really a cat born in a human body.
There are people who believe that they aren't human, on the inside.
Most of 'em know and acknowledge however, that they are quite human, at least on the outside.
Most of 'em know and acknowledge that this is their personal belief, and not in any way empirically provable and therefore don't insist they "really are" whatever they believe they are.
So, even if he believed he was a cat born in a human body, doesn't mean he's bonkers either.
Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.
If your are a man who feels they are really a woman or vise versa, you are not normal either. I understand some people have a strong need to BE normal and why some are obsessed with passing. But there are some such as myself that aren't so we fit into this same group as the cat person you are saying has something wrong with their mind/insane.
I'm just saying be careful with that brush you are using... You basically told everyone on this forum who doesn't strive to fit into a binary gender role that they are insane. And once again; if this cat man is happy, who gave you the right to declare he has passed some line and should be protected from happiness? There are a LOT of people who would LOVE to protect trans people from themselves and STOP any physical gender therapy.
If you have enough money, the rules don't apply to you.
And exactly, where - if anywhere - in all time and space does this/has this not been true?
I think it's simply wrong to DEMAND a doctor get this sort of report before they can move forward no matter what the case.
There is no legal 'demand' in the US, only the doctor's insurance carrier telling him that without that, they won't cover him.
Normal is ALWAYS related to current NORM of the culture you live in.
We don't go head hunting and then hang 'shrink heads' into our living room.
Something quite normal with some other folks.
Now, there is a very CLEAR knowing that culture actually holds us hostage!
I have seen it in some more extreme circumstances and can tell you is absolutely true.
In SA we actually can look over our 'Tellerrand' edge of the soup plate and see how this works for the other cultures we share the place with.
X number of African tribal cultures, Asian, Chinese, Mixed blood Coloureds incl. Malay, Bushman, etc. and then Whites or Caucasians, Europeans.
We usually do not notice our own lot, yet easily see their "abnormal" (by comparison) behaviour. Of course they see the same visa versa in Europeans.
So, normal is what adheres to the currently ruling cultural NORM.
Axelle
I don't think abnormal = insane. I'm aware that insane people can look normal. And that no one is normal in every instance since normal varies. I don't think having mods makes someone insane. But is there a point where mods can go too far?
Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?
I don't know if he has a psychological disorder, but I can assume. I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist. He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.
He wants to become his spiritual self. At some point he was told that a tiger was his totem animal and he has been obsessed ever since. His goal is to make his body match his spiritual image.
I know being trans isn't normal. I don't think someone is insane if they don't care about passing. Nor do I believe gender queer people are insane, since you actually can be born outside the gender binary. Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
But is there a point where mods can go too far?
Doesn't that depend on the person who is getting them?
Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?
Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people, and cause suicide kills people.
Exactly who is he killing?
I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist. He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.
Actually, it's because doctors can't "legally" do many of the body mods he's sought out.
See, it isn't a matter of him going to a doc and saying "I would like these face implants" and getting told no, it's a case of those implants simply being completely unavailable "outside" of body mod artists.
Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
This is, again, an assumption.
He seems happy with his life.
You're assuming a lot about a man simply based off of his appearance.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're assuming.
Meaning, you don't know.
You don't have objective facts on which to base the assumption other than your knee jerk reactions to a man's appearance.
You don't have the qualification to call the man mentally ill and even if you did you do not have the information required to gauge his mental stability.
As such, it doesn't matter whether a man can be a cat or not nor why. You don't have a say in whether or not he's mad what so ever.
Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people
Well thank god we put laws in place to stop that. Otherwise we'd have drugs everywhere. By the way, they might kill people, but only slowly. There were more hospital emergency room visits last year for toothpicks than heroin (as there are EVERY year) but I don't hear people wanting to ban toothpicks.
Quote from: dmx on September 02, 2011, 06:42:00 PM
I agree it's messed up. But I think MJ had vitiligo and had no control over his skin pigment changing.
HE DID
And MJ never had anything even reasonably approaching a normal life.
Quote from: Arch on September 04, 2011, 05:57:24 PM
A horny personality? >:-)
I dont care how horny he is, He'll never see MY bedroom.
So, when he's not with you, who's bedroom is he looking at?
Quote from: tekla on September 08, 2011, 05:28:20 PM
So, when he's not with you, who's bedroom is he looking at?
How would I know? He's not with me. :P
Quote from: Miniar on September 08, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
But is there a point where mods can go too far?
Doesn't that depend on the person who is getting them?
Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?
Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people, and cause suicide kills people.
Exactly who is he killing?
I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist. He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.
Actually, it's because doctors can't "legally" do many of the body mods he's sought out.
See, it isn't a matter of him going to a doc and saying "I would like these face implants" and getting told no, it's a case of those implants simply being completely unavailable "outside" of body mod artists.
Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
This is, again, an assumption.
He seems happy with his life.
You're assuming a lot about a man simply based off of his appearance.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're assuming.
Meaning, you don't know.
You don't have objective facts on which to base the assumption other than your knee jerk reactions to a man's appearance.
You don't have the qualification to call the man mentally ill and even if you did you do not have the information required to gauge his mental stability.
As such, it doesn't matter whether a man can be a cat or not nor why. You don't have a say in whether or not he's mad what so ever.
If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?
So what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death. Cat's next mod could kill him. So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.
The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.
How is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.
No one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill. I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable. I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?
So what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death. Cat's next mod could kill him. So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.
The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.
How is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.
No one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill. I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable. I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.
I couldn't agree more.
You are being pretty hypocritical Sharky. As long as it doesn't hurt someone else then he should have the right to do whatever he want's with his body.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 08, 2011, 07:17:57 PM
You are being pretty hypocritical Sharky. As long as it doesn't hurt someone else then he should have the right to do whatever he want's with his body.
How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?
Transsexual people can sure as hell be. We do much more than plastic surgery. We alter our body's hormone levels, get things removed, nothing that we do should be from a decision that's taken lightly. Some people could say we're worse because of that.
I'm not saying no one should intervene, but like, we shouldn't just restrict things because we're ignorant about it.
I honestly have no idea who's side to take, so im just going to leave.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
I guess you have never heard bigots say "A man pretending to be a woman doesn't actually make them a woman...." And you don't thing gender transformations have some negative side effects related to them? If you want to impose limits on the cat guy, you are also making it OK for people to limit what I can do.
As far as intervention in people who wanna get high their whole life, if they aren't doing anything illegal and no one gives a crap about them, no one is going to intervene and you can't MAKE someone not spend their whole life high/drunk. I have friends who have. Suicide is only intervened if someone reaches out for help.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
If someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?
Yes.
You know how foreign it is for most males to imagine a person would want to have their penis amputated? I bet if you asked most males "You have a choice, arms and legs or your penis" it would at the very least be a hard choice to make.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
The doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.
Interesting, do you have a reference for that law? If that was true how could a plastic surgeon do that to Jocelyn Wildenstein?
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PM
I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable. I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.
You still don't seem to grasp what this guy has done isn't that different in some peoples eyes from a guy having himself surgically modified into a woman (or vice versa) do you?
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 07:34:07 PM
How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?
OK how about if some people decided a line should be drawn because THEY believe trying to change your gender is too out there and you should just stay unhappy because THEY think it's too extreme?
Im going to have nightmares tonight...
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PMIf someone wants to have all their arms and legs amputated should they be allowed to live as a torso if that makes them happy?
If they can do so, knowing the risks and complications involved and are able to make a living as a quadruple amputee, why not?
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PMSo what if drugs are illegal. Just because something isn't' legal doesn't mean it's bad. Drugs don't always kill people, there's just the risk. All surgeries run the risk of death. Cat's next mod could kill him. So you're allowed to do anything except kill yourself? I didn't say he was killing anyone. He also enjoys climbing trees and eating raw meat. One of those activities could kill him.
I didn't say "all drugs kill people", I provided a reason why we consider it fine to intervene in one case where we don't intervene in others.
Personally I think that a person who makes the conscious choice of suicide, with all the facts in place, should have the right to do so. If I were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would lead to a slow and painful death, I'd like to be offered that same respect as we show house-pets and decide to go out my own terms rather than (for example) starve to death from the inside out, similarly I don't think drugs should be illegal, monitored and regulated, but not illegal.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PMThe doctors can't legally do the mods because it is illegal to change someone's appearance so much that they look way beyond what is deemed as normal.
And there's the rub.
"what is deemed normal"
You know that there's people who "deem" transsexuals as abnormal?
You know that all too often the gatekeepers of transition decide who is and who isn't "normal" and so deny treatment to people who don't fit their idea of the transgender mold treatment?
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PMHow is pretending to be a cat doesn't make you a cat, an assumption? There are a bunch of drug users that seem happy. There are truly insane people that seem happy.
Actually the assumption is "I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects"
You don't know his life. You don't know what his choices have done to his life.
The only "negative effect" you can, with any reliably, state that it has had on his life is that "you" think he's crazy.
That's it.
And unless his quality of life hangs on what you think of him, that can't even be reliably stated to be a negative effect on his life.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 06:35:14 PMNo one knows everything so sometimes you have to assume. Your assumption is right, I don't have the qualifications to diagnose him as mentally ill. I don't need a degree to see that someone is mentally unstable. I also don't have the qualifications to say he's not mad. You don't need all the pieces of the puzzle to see what the picture is going to be.
Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.
People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.
Quote from: Sharky on September 08, 2011, 07:34:07 PM
How am I being hypocritical? So you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere? That there isn't a point where other people should intervene? Can no one be out of their mind and a harm to themselves?
What makes you hypocritical is that you're using the exact rhetoric for drawing the line at Cat which people use to suggest that the line should be drawn well before that (making us people who've crossed the line and then some.)
No one here is saying that Cat's in his right mind in his decision, what we're saying is that it's not something we can accurately dictate.
If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?
Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.
Simple as that.
Quote from: Miniar on September 09, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?
Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.
Exactly. I went to Furcon this spring. It was interesting seeing how into "being a furry" these people are. Don't really understand it but I could tell they were VERY happy being in their fur suits. Made me happy just watching them :P Should we draw the line there, that someone is insane for wanting to BE a furry? There are so many odd things people need to do to be happy, we have NO RIGHT to put limits on them unless they hurt some innocent person.
Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 01:49:55 AM
We really would be much better off keeping insurance OUT of these procedures, at least in the US. I wonder if we wouldn't be better off without health insurance all together but that's another issue....
Great post. I often wonder if insurance as an industry would be viable if we didn't have such a screwed up legal system, so insanely litigious, and that's not just health insurance. Insurance companies with teams of high-priced lawyers seem to manage to get out of paying so often when the big bills turn up. And the little (relatively speaking) bills just keep getting higher and higher. I've heard the point that health insurance paying for regular doctor visits is like having car insurance that pays for your gas and maintenance. It's no surprise that the premiums AND the price of services skyrocket.
And so many people are in a mode of living in debt and paycheck-to-paycheck (it's our culture) that the idea of saving up money for basic care and minor emergencies and just paying a much smaller premium for catastrophic coverage like hospital stays, is just outside of their imaginations.
It makes sense to me that if a person is paying for it themselves, they shouldn't have to jump through any hoops. If you expect insurance to pay it, then obviously it needs to be a "condition" first, which understandably requires a diagnosis.
Quote from: Miniar on September 09, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.
People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.
Exactly, I mean gay people in the 50's were lobotomized, so were us transpeople in the 60's and 70's.
So who are we to judge someone by the choices they've made in their life.
If you dont like what he's done to himself, then dont repeat his actions, simple as that.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 08, 2011, 07:53:47 PM
Transsexual people can sure as hell be. We do much more than plastic surgery. We alter our body's hormone levels, get things removed, nothing that we do should be from a decision that's taken lightly. Some people could say we're worse because of that.
I'm not saying no one should intervene, but like, we shouldn't just restrict things because we're ignorant about it.
I don't have a problem with body mods. You could say I was "modded" I used to have 6 piercings, got tattooed, stretched my ear lobes. But he takes it to a whole other level. He isn't just doing it because he thinks it looks cool, or that his body is a work of art, he really does think he is a Tiger.
Quote from: Stephe on September 08, 2011, 09:13:19 PM
I guess you have never heard bigots say "A man pretending to be a woman doesn't actually make them a woman...." And you don't thing gender transformations have some negative side effects related to them? If you want to impose limits on the cat guy, you are also making it OK for people to limit what I can do.
As far as intervention in people who wanna get high their whole life, if they aren't doing anything illegal and no one gives a crap about them, no one is going to intervene and you can't MAKE someone not spend their whole life high/drunk. I have friends who have. Suicide is only intervened if someone reaches out for help.
I'm not saying it's ok for people to limit what you can do. You actually are a woman, it is possible for you to be a woman. It is not possible for someone to be a tiger.
If they are getting high, they probably are doing something illegal. A lot of people would give a crap and try to stop them.
QuoteYou know how foreign it is for most males to imagine a person would want to have their penis amputated? I bet if you asked most males "You have a choice, arms and legs or your penis" it would at the very least be a hard choice to make.
That's because most males are men.
QuoteInteresting, do you have a reference for that law? If that was true how could a plastic surgeon do that to Jocelyn Wildenstein?
He now travels to Phoenix, Arizona to have his surgery carried out by body modification artist Steve Hayward. Cat cannot go under the surgeon's knife because it is illegal in the United States for a medical professional to alter someone's appearance beyond what society deems normal.
This also means that Cat has to brave surgery without taking anything for the pain. In the US, only qualified doctors are licensed to administer anaesthetic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/articles/disorders/gallery/gallery_case2.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/articles/disorders/gallery/gallery_case2.shtml)
I'm assuming Jocelyn Wildenstein surgeries were done slowly over a period of time and were labeled as things like lip plumping and not tiger lips.
QuoteYou still don't seem to grasp what this guy has done isn't that different in some peoples eyes from a guy having himself surgically modified into a woman (or vice versa) do you?
I know some people would lump him in with transsexuals.
Quote from: Stephe on September 08, 2011, 09:30:46 PM
OK how about if some people decided a line should be drawn because THEY believe trying to change your gender is too out there and you should just stay unhappy because THEY think it's too extreme?
They think that because they are uneducated about trans issues. You can not be born with identity of a Tiger.
Quote from: Miniar on September 09, 2011, 09:28:15 AM
If they can do so, knowing the risks and complications involved and are able to make a living as a quadruple amputee, why not?
I didn't say "all drugs kill people", I provided a reason why we consider it fine to intervene in one case where we don't intervene in others.
Personally I think that a person who makes the conscious choice of suicide, with all the facts in place, should have the right to do so. If I were diagnosed with a terminal disease that would lead to a slow and painful death, I'd like to be offered that same respect as we show house-pets and decide to go out my own terms rather than (for example) starve to death from the inside out, similarly I don't think drugs should be illegal, monitored and regulated, but not illegal.
And there's the rub.
"what is deemed normal"
You know that there's people who "deem" transsexuals as abnormal?
You know that all too often the gatekeepers of transition decide who is and who isn't "normal" and so deny treatment to people who don't fit their idea of the transgender mold treatment?
Actually the assumption is "I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects"
You don't know his life. You don't know what his choices have done to his life.
The only "negative effect" you can, with any reliably, state that it has had on his life is that "you" think he's crazy.
That's it.
And unless his quality of life hangs on what you think of him, that can't even be reliably stated to be a negative effect on his life.
Actually, you do need a degree to tell whether someone's mentally ill, you can presume or suspect or even assume, but your word is moot unless you have information to back it up. You can not say with any certainty that the man's lost his mind in any shape way or form.
People look at us, trans people, and decide that we're crazy, just like you've decided he's crazy.
I don't know him, he might very well be crazy, but it's not my place to say, nor is it yours.
What makes you hypocritical is that you're using the exact rhetoric for drawing the line at Cat which people use to suggest that the line should be drawn well before that (making us people who've crossed the line and then some.)
No one here is saying that Cat's in his right mind in his decision, what we're saying is that it's not something we can accurately dictate.
If Cat has a healthy, happy life, with all his mods and his beliefs, then who are we to tell him that he's wrong?
Don't like someone's choices, then don't do 'em yourself.
Simple as that.
I was flicking through the channels the other day and started watching this talk show with an anorexic woman on it. She said she was fully aware of all the risks and complications related to her anorexia. She also mentioned that she was forced feed in a hospital. Most people seem to believe that there is a line where an obligation to save someone from themselves starts. I'm not exactly sure where this line is, but I think extreme things like transforming into a cat and becoming a quadruple amputee are crossing it. The idea is that these people are in need of help and you should try to stop them from ruining their lives.
I agree that if you are dying and suffering that you should be able to be put out of your misery. I don't think healthy people should be allowed to kill themselves. I also don't see how getting high is different than getting drunk.
Society deems what is normal and what isn't, and that's constantly changing. I didn't make the law and I don't know where the line is drawn.
Yes I know there are people who deem transsexuals as abnormal.
I don't think doctors should be forced to perform transsexual related care if they are worried about the patient regretting it or whatever.
He said that he had a hard time finding work and a girlfriend. I imagine eating with those teeth is a challenge. Raw meat is known to be risky. I do know what he has shared.
Don't you also need a degree to declare that someone isn't mentally ill? I highly doubt I can be convinced that a sane person would think they were a Tiger.
What I say may sound similar, but it's a completely different issue.
"But some doctors contend that Stalking Cat displays a form of body dysmorphic disorder, which affects one's perception of personal appearance to the point of obsession..... "It is possible to have a coherent view that is nonetheless detrimental to one's well-being," McGee said. "This is a patient who's being harmed by medicine in the interest of his tradition."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002441727_catman16.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002441727_catman16.html)
Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2011, 09:50:56 AM
Exactly. I went to Furcon this spring. It was interesting seeing how into "being a furry" these people are. Don't really understand it but I could tell they were VERY happy being in their fur suits. Made me happy just watching them :P Should we draw the line there, that someone is insane for wanting to BE a furry? There are so many odd things people need to do to be happy, we have NO RIGHT to put limits on them unless they hurt some innocent person.
I don't 100% know what a furry is. Don't they just dress up like their favorite animal characters from Japanese stuff? They don't really think they are a wolf or whatever. Can that innocent person be themselves?
Quote from: Sharky on September 09, 2011, 03:52:03 PM
He isn't just doing it because he thinks it looks cool, or that his body is a work of art, he really does think he is a Tiger.
I'm not saying it's ok for people to limit what you can do. You actually are a woman, it is possible for you to be a woman. It is not possible for someone to be a tiger.
You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.
All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.
Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.
All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.
Texans are not real people, they are the human manifestation of bad ideas...
"Liberal" lines of thought will always go, "Well people deserve to act however they like and do whatever they like to make them happy!" Make note that I use the term liberal, liberally and not in reference to politics. As much as I hate saying this, society DOES need rules. People can not actually do whatever the f**k they want to make them "happy". Think of the implications of that - and think it all the way through. Imagine a world where they were no checks and balances and no rules and people could just make all their own choices. People do have a lot of choices they CAN make (and usually do) but as Sharky (who actually DOES seem to be thinking things all the way through) pointed out, it's one of those, "where is the line drawn?" type of situations. Someone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions. What if that person has a small child and is the only care-giver of that child? What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs and takes matters into their own hands to make that a reality (I'm pretty sure there's police departments out there with reams of case files of "sick" individuals who committed similar types of crimes - all the while, gleefully doing it and truly believing they were doing the world some good). Like it or not, rules are there for a reason.
It's all so very easy to just sit around and call other people hypocrites because they might actually advocate that some rules might need to be in place, but then some things are minor enough to let slide (such as minor body modifications), but what's not so easy is to take a stand that people should not be allowed to do certain things - to be able to see the "fall out" that would actually happen if that were the case.
And comparing these types of modifications to transgender/transsexual people is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Trans stuff is already on the books as a diagnosed condition. I can argue all day long that I don't think it's a mental disorder but a naturally occurring phenomenon, but that really doesn't change anything. Yes, there are plenty of nut jobs out there in the world who feel they deserve happiness derived from whatever weird sh*t gets their rocks off - they're not exactly in the same class as trans people, so why are you putting them there? Why are you extending your personal "line" to include them? You just can't wave your wand with a broad stroke and declare that everyone has the same rights to do whatever pleases them. Things should be determined on a case by case basis and some general rules DO need to apply.
I gotta say that while I do understand your disagreement Stephe and it is very well thought out that I agree with Inside and Sharky. Mathews (sp? Sorry on my phone so I can't check) original point seemed to be that they can do this without jumping through hoops like we have to. I agree.
We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it. I cannot judge these people because I do not know them but I know that they are people. Thats my opinion on it and Sharky it takes guts to hold on to a disagreeing opinion so good for you man.
Edit: Upon more thought I decided to edit my post a bit. I think this better reflects my thoughts.
Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2011, 09:14:36 PM
You do realize a court in Texas ruled it's not possible for someone who was born male/man to ever be a female/woman? Clearly some people do NOT believe I can be a woman.
All you have done is drawn your line slightly past where some other people have accepting a TS can be a woman. At some point when someone draws a line between where you need to go to be happy and where you are now, maybe you will get how wrong you are on this.
I am fully aware that everyone isn't supportive and understanding of transsexuals. I don't see what this has to do with anything. This is an entirely different issue. It is impossible for a human to be born with the identity of a tiger. Just because some texan may use a simular argument against transsexuals doesn't meant I'm wrong. It's a different line for a different issue. I've crossed many lines. There are ways around everything. Cat has obviously found a way around the Line. He just has to suffer through the surgeries without out the supervision of medical professionals and anastetic.
QuoteSomeone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions.
You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a
diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.
I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything.
Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man? Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society? Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them? What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents? Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them?
These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different. I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty. It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on September 09, 2011, 11:44:02 PM
"Liberal" lines of thought will always go, "Well people deserve to act however they like and do whatever they like to make them happy!" Make note that I use the term liberal, liberally and not in reference to politics. As much as I hate saying this, society DOES need rules. People can not actually do whatever the f**k they want to make them "happy". Think of the implications of that - and think it all the way through. Imagine a world where they were no checks and balances and no rules and people could just make all their own choices. People do have a lot of choices they CAN make (and usually do) but as Sharky (who actually DOES seem to be thinking things all the way through) pointed out, it's one of those, "where is the line drawn?" type of situations. Someone mentally unstable enough to want to chop off their arms and legs, I'm sorry, is not a very "healthy" individual to have making decisions. What if that person has a small child and is the only care-giver of that child? What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs and takes matters into their own hands to make that a reality (I'm pretty sure there's police departments out there with reams of case files of "sick" individuals who committed similar types of crimes - all the while, gleefully doing it and truly believing they were doing the world some good). Like it or not, rules are there for a reason.
It's all so very easy to just sit around and call other people hypocrites because they might actually advocate that some rules might need to be in place, but then some things are minor enough to let slide (such as minor body modifications), but what's not so easy is to take a stand that people should not be allowed to do certain things - to be able to see the "fall out" that would actually happen if that were the case.
And comparing these types of modifications to transgender/transsexual people is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Trans stuff is already on the books as a diagnosed condition. I can argue all day long that I don't think it's a mental disorder but a naturally occurring phenomenon, but that really doesn't change anything. Yes, there are plenty of nut jobs out there in the world who feel they deserve happiness derived from whatever weird sh*t gets their rocks off - they're not exactly in the same class as trans people, so why are you putting them there? Why are you extending your personal "line" to include them? You just can't wave your wand with a broad stroke and declare that everyone has the same rights to do whatever pleases them. Things should be determined on a case by case basis and some general rules DO need to apply.
I completely agree with everything. I wouldn't want to live in a place where people could do whatever the hell the wanted just because it makes them happy. The reality is that there are mentally unstable individuals. I find it quite ridiculous that I shouldn't be allowed to state my opinion in a topic asking for opinions of people, who presumably aren't medical professionals, because I don't have more degrees than a thermometer, nor do I believe Stalking Cat is a sane unique individual.
I don't see what the big deal is.
So he wants to be a cat and another wants to be a lizard. Great, we'll put them on the cover of Big Whoop Magazine -- who gives a ->-bleeped-<-.
Ultimately we are all here for a good time not a long time.
Quote from: xAndrewx on September 10, 2011, 12:03:33 AM
I gotta say that while I do understand your disagreement Stephe and it is very well thought out that I agree with Inside and Sharky. Mathews (sp? Sorry on my phone so I can't check) original point seemed to be that they can do this without jumping through hoops like we have to. I believe he may think he is a cat but he wants to stay in a human society. If that is the case try to see this view. We as humans could not function in a society of cats so he could not function as a cat in a human society.
We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it. I cannot judge these people because I do not know them but I know that they are people. Thats my opinion on it and Sharky it takes guts to hold on to a disagreeing opinion so good for you man.
Thanks, and at least we have hoops to jump through. Cat doesn't because it is against the law for a doctor to do the things he wants. Some zoo let him play with their Tigers. He said the real tigers knew he was a tiger too and recognized him as one. I'm assuming they were sedated and trained and a wild jungle cat would just maul him, but he thinks he can function in a tiger's society.
Quote from: Hermione01 on September 10, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.
I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything.
Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man? Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society? Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them? What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents? Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them?
These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different. I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty. It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.
For most people cutting off healthy breast or penises isn't normal. Thinking you're a tiger and transitioning into a tiger is extreme in my book. In the show I watched about people wanting to become amputees they said doctors, in America at least, wouldn't cut off a healthy limb. These people often give themselves a bad case of frostbite and force doctors to amputate the limb.
I also think if you need attention so bad that you will purposely make yourself a freak that you're off your rocker too.
You're right Cat doesn't really fit in this topic because it was created to complain about how people who do "abnormal" things to themselves can get the surgeries they want, but transsexuals can't without jumping through hoops. Cat doesn't fit because he can't even get doctors to give him the surgeries he wants and that wont change with a few therapy sessions.
I don't think pointing out that he is mentally unstable is rubbishing him. It's just calling it like it is. Not everyone deserves a place in society. I'm all for imprisoning those who can't conform to societies rules and even capital punishment. I don't think he needs to be locked up unless he decides to start hunting humans or something. I think it would be the most humane to let him stay crazy since he has passed the point of no return. He would have a whole lot of regret to live with if he ever gained his sanity. I don't see what having deformities or injuries have to do with anything. Those aren't choices you make.
I don't hate Stalking Cat I just think he is crazy. Everyone is different, but I believe in a functioning reality where there are absolute truths and normal and abnormal exists, even though it varies and evolves.
Quote from: Hermione01 on September 10, 2011, 12:58:49 AM
You do realize that the majority of people think cutting off healthy breasts and healthy penises is not normal. You're using an extreme case of people wanting a limb removed, (yes, there are documented cases of such people and they have a psychiatrist's approval with the said limb removed surgically under anesthetic, it is a diagnosed condition )yet people think cutting off healthy organs (breasts/penis) is as extreme as you can get.
I understand the frustration some having it hard to jump through hoops, to have their body modified to match their brains but picking out rare individuals who pay for their own kind of modifications are grasping at straws. They pay the price to be thought as a 'freak', yet they seem to revel in the attention, no harm done. This cat man must think it pretty cool to be brought into a discussion that really has nothing to do with anything.
Why does it seem acceptable to rubbish the cat man? Maybe he can't live being as he was before, should we deny him a place in society? Would he and his kind be better off dead because society can't stand looking at them? What about people born with deformities or suffer severe injuries from accidents? Many in society can't stand to look at them either, should we shut them away or better still, exterminate them?
These kind of discussions really don't serve any purpose other than fuel hatred against anyone who is different. I don't for a moment presume to draw the line at what is normal even though the majority in society seem to think it's their duty. It must be wonderful to be 'normal', look 'normal', behave 'normal' and call the shots on what's 'normal'.
Point missed.
Quote from: xAndrewx on September 10, 2011, 12:03:33 AM
We all need some line and sadly someone has to draw it.
My point is: Be careful about allowing lines to be drawn. Very easily the line could be moved to a place between you and where you need to be happy. It actually was not that long ago.
Quote from: Stephe on September 10, 2011, 10:33:24 AM
My point is: Be careful about allowing lines to be drawn. Very easily the line could be moved to a place between you and where you need to be happy. It actually was not that long ago.
Exactly.
And my point is not that everyone should always be allowed to do whatever they want whatever that may be without any checks or balances or what so ever.
My point is, we don't get to draw the line based on the personal opinion, likes and beliefs of unqualified people, or whoever insists the loudest.
We don't get to assign sane v.s. insane on personal opinion.
The line has to be drawn, not based on what we "think" or "like" or "feel" but based on reason and logic and research with the end goal in mind to allow us all the chance to the best quality of life possible, not just physically but also emotionally and psychologically.
I think that guy in the mugshot looks awesome, ha ha. But yeah, having to get letters is annoying. Luckily I managed to schedule top surgery without one because I've been fulltime for so long (yet nobody will prescribe me hormones! Annoying). Anyway, I don't see why we must draw a line. So somebody thinks they shouldn't have a left leg, or they should be a tiger . . . so what? They're not hurting anybody. In the case where they have a child, as you mention, stopping them from body modification won't actually help. The mental problem (if you think there is one), will remain, and if there's any danger to the child, that would be it. If you claim it is the physical changes which cause the problem, well them you'll have to start taking kids away from anyone who loses limbs in a car accident, or while fighting for our country.
And of course my profile picture is Pete Burns, the queen of plastic surgery. How appropriate.
What if that person first decides other people also would look good with no arms and legs...
There is a pretty bright line between what you do to yourself, and what you would do to others. Often expressed as: Your freedom to swing your arm stops at my nose. So bringing that into the issues is just a straw-man/red herring argument trick. We're not - and no one did - talk about forcing/mandating others to do this. No one is talking about forcing anything on anyone, except Sharky who wants to punish non-conformity (I'm all for imprisoning those who can't conform to societies rules).
I guess my first (and really only question) about any of this, all of it, body mods/transsexuals/hippies/Amish and Mennonites/anybody and everybody outside the mainstream is.... What's it matter to you? If it's not harming you, interfering with your life, impacting you personally what's it matter if someone wants body tattoos making them look like a lizard, or a cat person, or if they want to live off the grid, or pursue a life structured around a different and differing set of values what's it matter to you? Is the lizard guy, or the cat person, or the TS person impacting your life? If not, what's it matter to you?
Worrying that some person might lump you in with 'those people' is useless as you can't control what other people think. And if it comes down to freedom or fear, I'll take freedom. Some people will always take things 'too far'. That's how we find out exactly were 'too far' is. And, usually after they are dead, they tend to be seen as pioneers, visionaries, artists and all that. But that's not why they do it, I think they do it because, like the summit of Everest, they do it because it's there. And still, in all the differences, we're all still more alike then we are different.
Besides, some people's purpose in life is to serve as a bad example and a warning.
Long ago blues guys were tossing around versions of this.
There ain't nothing I can do or nothing I can say
That folks don't criticize me
But I'm going to do just as I want to anyway
And don't care just what people say
If I should take the notion to jump into the ocean
Ain't nobody's business if I do
If I go to church on Sunday then cabaret all day Monday
Ain't nobody's business if I do
They were right then, they are still right.
Not everyone deserves a place in society.
Okey dokey, then, if that's the way you want to play it. Do we get to vote? What happens if your the first person voted off the island, is that OK? I mean we got big dog piles of people like you, one more or less ain't gonna make a big difference but how many tiger people do we have? ICID - infinite diversity in infinite combination: 'Twas ever thus.
I have nothing wrong with what any of these people are getting done to themselves, but yeah. It does piss me off that we gotta struggle to get the things we NEED to get done, as a core of our identities....even if its the core of their identity too, why should they be so priviliged to just go and get it done, when it can take so many of us YEARS or even worse, not AT ALL? Ugh. Touchy topic for me.... :-\
Quote from: Kyle_S on September 18, 2011, 04:51:12 PM
I have nothing wrong with what any of these people are getting done to themselves, but yeah. It does piss me off that we gotta struggle to get the things we NEED to get done, as a core of our identities....even if its the core of their identity too, why should they be so priviliged to just go and get it done, when it can take so many of us YEARS or even worse, not AT ALL? Ugh. Touchy topic for me.... :-\
The standereds of care weren't written for us, its for people who "think" they're transsexual.
Quote from: xxScarlettxx on September 18, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
The standereds of care weren't written for us, its for people who "think" they're transsexual.
...and what's wrong with people who "think" they might be? Not everyone knows from a young age. For some, it's a process and for some, therapy greatly benefits them. I'm not upset or angry that I have to go to therapy to get T, surgery...etc...it's part of the process and one I'll gladly take to make sure I know what I'm doing and can work out any feelings I may have.
Quote from: Darrin on September 18, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
...and what's wrong with people who "think" they might be? Not everyone knows from a young age. For some, it's a process and for some, therapy greatly benefits them. I'm not upset or angry that I have to go to therapy to get T, surgery...etc...it's part of the process and one I'll gladly take to make sure I know what I'm doing and can work out any feelings I may have.
Note your post uses the word "I" six times talking about what others should have to do.
Not everyone needs professional therapy to work out their feelings on this. Some people have spent years of introspection and talked with many different people to figure themselves out. I would agree that some people (such as yourself?) do much better talking to strangers about this sort of thing, some people respond better talking with people who care about them. Some of us -knew- from the time they can remember they felt this way..
I would never say no one should ever need professional therapy, why do others try to say everyone does?
Quote from: Stephe on September 18, 2011, 08:40:42 PM
Note your post uses the word "I" six times talking about what others should have to do.
Not everyone needs professional therapy to work out their feelings on this. Some people have spent years of introspection and talked with many different people to figure themselves out. I would agree that some people (such as yourself?) do much better talking to strangers about this sort of thing, some people respond better talking with people who care about them. Some of us -knew- from the time they can remember they felt this way..
I would never say no one should ever need professional therapy, why do others try to say everyone does?
Please be aware that I don't think everyone needs to see a professional. You're right, I feel more comfortable talking to people who are considered professional therapists. I was responding to the idea that the standard of care was written strictly for people who "think" they might be trans*. To me, that comment came off as a little condescending. I was saying that some people DO need to work through things with professionals, like myself. Others, like yourself? Don't and it's a little more clear to you I'm assuming. Nothing wrong with that. I just think both groups need to be respected.
Quote from: Darrin on September 18, 2011, 08:55:14 PM
Please be aware that I don't think everyone needs to see a professional. You're right, I feel more comfortable talking to people who are considered professional therapists. I was responding to the idea that the standard of care was written strictly for people who "think" they might be trans*. To me, that comment came off as a little condescending. I was saying that some people DO need to work through things with professionals, like myself. Others, like yourself? Don't and it's a little more clear to you I'm assuming. Nothing wrong with that. I just think both groups need to be respected.
The problem is the SOC shows ZERO respect for persons like myself.
I had been living full time for over 2 years, yet still was required to get a hormone letter from a professional therapist before I could get on HRT. I would kinda think if someone has been living as the opposite gender full time for over 2 years, they might have figured out if this was right for them or not? I had to go through several sessions before she was "convinced I had GID"???
Didn't mean to jump on you but it sounded like you think there is nothing wrong with the present -set of rules-. It clearly fits in with your needs but it sure doesn't for everyone.