I just curious and wish to understand others here so please don't think I am judging what you have decided is best for you. I do see a common thread on the board that involves really unhappy people or people enduring incredible hardship and ostricism which because (In my humble best guess) they rush the Social Transition and have little chance of passing. Please understand, I'm not judging anyone in any way but only seek to understand!
I have struggled with GID as long as I can remember. When I decided realized that the GID wasn't going to accept anything short of medical transition I developed a plan to study every aspect of transition in order to make it as succesful as possible, then execute the plan. The central key to MY plan was to maintain optimum levels of HRT and let it do it's work as long as I could still pass as a guy. When I start getting mam'ed when presenting as a guy and people are really wondering WTF is wrong with me, I will take a month off, get a little FFS and make a switch when I get back.
So, that is MY plan and it is based on the belief that people will accept me and life will be much easier if I can at least not get clocked instantly by strangers.
I am really interested in knowing why people do what they do because knowing leads to undersanding. I DO suspect that for some the GID suddenly just becomes so unbearable that it suddenly becomes a life or death decision to transition now or die.
I think it's also possible that some people fight the GID so hard and long then the GID jsut brings them to their knees and leaves them with few options including the one stated above.
So what are your thoughts?
I don't pass very well, but passing really isn't my goal. Wholeness is my goal.
Someone else here a while back noted that whether or not one passes depends on the eyes of the beholder. So, while I don't pass well to my own eyes, I've had many a person address me as "ma'am" while out en femme, even before starting HRT.
My RLE starts next Friday, 9/16, after a little more than 3 months HRT and before any surgery. To me, it's time. I'm out as "Connie" in most of the places I go anyway, so there's little point, to me, in waiting any longer.
I was one who started fulltime before I went on HRT. For me, it was my own decision that, if I could not cut it presenting female to others on a fulltime bases, then why in the world would I subject my body to the changes and permanent changes HRT will make.
Also, remember, there are some countries that require at least some fulltime RLE before consideration for HRT is given.
I had no problems passing fulltime without the hrt. I was only fulltime for about 3 months before hrt, but i hadnt had any issues.n A lot of passing has to do with attitude more than the pills in my opinion.
@JessicaH
For me, HRT had bombstatic effects. At 4 months I was getting ma'amed more than sired, and some folks I recently knew assumed I was a dyke because of the guy clothes. One day, the son of my hairdresser asked us "Why is she dressed up like a guy?" and at that moment, I decided to go full time. I was even being called ma'am while wearing a male white overcoat with a male name written on it at work, while presenting myself as a male, no makeup and trying to use a male voice.
So, for me, I went fulltime as I was very passable. I just had a bit of luck and it happened fairly early.
Quote from: Annah on September 09, 2011, 03:28:52 PMI had no problems passing fulltime without the hrt. I was only fulltime for about 3 months before hrt, but i hadnt had any issues.n A lot of passing has to do with attitude more than the pills in my opinion.
+1 on that, with a bullet! I've been fulltime since April, and went on HRT at the end of March. I went on vacation April 8, and came back to work as Me April 25 (Easter Monday - I really LOVED the symbolism). I've had no problems at all. I now have my own house, and as far as I can tell the neighbors don't suspect a thing - I've met a few of them. If anyone reads me, nobody has given me any indication. And for me, the whole issue was more about being who I am, and living in alignment with that, rather than any specific idea of passing. I'm not a raving beauty, I accept that, but I don't break any mirrors, either... :laugh:
I was 5 months into HRT, before RLE. I wanted the right fuel to have a chance sculpting the body before hand.
I started full time about 5 months after starting HRT, but my first three months of HRT didn't give me any changes since my T was still at 650 (and I mean no changes at all). So the doc switched my AA and I went full time 2.5 months later. Basically, I went full time the moment I noticed that my face was changing because I couldn't handle one more day of being seen in public as a male. ;D Body changes didn't even start until a month after I went full time, and still lag far behind my face in terms of overall change.
I think paranoia was ingrained into my personality by my parents, both of whom are extremely cautious people who do not like to take risks. I was so terrified of something going wrong (and ruining my life) that I planned everything out and saved money for 3 years before starting transition so I could get FFS and reduce my chances of being rejected. It was *pain* to do so, but it paid off because I still have my job, pass 100% that I know of with strangers, and really haven't had any trouble.
Honestly, everyone is different. Some have a lot more luck with hormones, some have a lot less to lose, some don't care what others think, and some have stronger dysphoria. All these factors will play into how early someone can and will transition. Like you Jessica, I have a hard time imagining full-time before or shortly after starting hormones but I had a hard time getting over my mental hurdles. If I looked as nice as soon as some of the younger girls on this site, I would have gone full-time very quickly. But I still would have planned it out in advance. :)
I started both on the same day. Honestly at that point I didn't give a rat's patootie what anybody thought about it; I wasn't doing it for them in any case. But in the beginning when I started it wasn't even something I was concerned with in the least, because it was far more important to me to be able to stop living a lie than what anybody else thought about me.
Well... in my case I was full-time 3 years prior to HRT. I will say that I do pass (hate that word btw) extremely well, and did even so prior to HRT. It was more of a chore for me to pass as a male growing up, especially when I was younger. People would tell my mom she had a beautiful daughter, until she'd correct them and say, no that's my son. :-\ Also it depends not only on your presentation to the world, but when you are personally, mentally, and emotionally, ready to make that step to FT 24/7. For me, I couldn't do it soon enough. HRT has really just been the whipped cream on the dessert (SRS will be the cherry :)) for me.
HRT isn't a magic pill. You won't become a Victoria's Secret super-model overnight, or even over several years. There is so much more to living your life 24/7 as a female. More important things honestly. Being at peace and happy with yourself on a daily basis for example. The changes from HRT are only minor in comparison to the other changes and challenges you'll have to face along the way IMHO. For example, I stress more over how to organize my MAC eyeshadow palettes than worrying about the physical changes from HRT. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_lol:
I was full-time way before I started HRT. Why would I want to wait to me myself? Being full-time is not controlled by anyone but yourself.
I'm nearly full time, not on HRT. I don't really pass. But it does make me feel a lot better about myself to have friends, coworkers, and family address me with my preferred name and male pronouns. Makes the waiting for HRT easier.
I was able to pass very well before I got on HRT because I was lucky because I have a lot of feminine features so it was really just a matter of my hair growing out. I knew I needed to transition and I went full time as soon as I could get enough clothes to do so.
I went full time 2 months into HRT. Mainly because 2 years ago there was a rumor about me being on hormones at work, when I wasn't, and when I got back from being laid off, those rumors started again. So I figured what the hey. People know so no point keeping a secret that isn't secret. So, here I am, full time and couldn't be happier about it. ^_^
Like some others, I was only on HRT for a couple months before going full time, no surgery yet. We all have different reasons, but for me, I just had to. I was doing the back and forth thing for a while, and that, to me, was worse than anything, because I felt it was to jarring to be he one minute and her the next. I never had a problem in public, even way before I realized who I was, so after some laser on my face, I felt that I could live full time with little discomfort. Passing? Heh. I don't even think about it that much these days. That's not to say I don't want to pass, I do, but feeling like I'm being true to myself trumps passing every time, for me.
On a side, why does everyone who says they always pass and are super fem and have female traits naturally never have pictures? It's just that unless you began HRT pre-puberty, then most likely you have some male traits, so what? We're on a site for trans folks, so why the BS?
I have a question.. What constitutes full time? Is passing a necessity? I live as a woman, but don't pass at this point.. I've been on hormones about 4.5 months, but lived this way even before.. Transition is about me and my happiness/contentment. I've taken what steps I could, when I could..
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 11, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
I have a question.. What constitutes full time? Is passing a necessity? I live as a woman, but don't pass at this point.. I've been on hormones about 4.5 months, but lived this way even before.. Transition is about me and my happiness/contentment. I've taken what steps I could, when I could..
That's exactly it. It isn't about passing, it's about how you live. I'm a woman, 24/7. I live as a woman even when there's nobody around to see, so it isn't about passing. My driver's license, health card, credit cards, bank accounts, all identify me as Colleen. My driver's license identifies me as Female. There's no vestige of "him" left. I'm a woman, 24/7. I'm full-time.
Quote from: Annah on September 09, 2011, 03:28:52 PM
A lot of passing has to do with attitude more than the pills in my opinion.
Very true, I was living full time for a couple of years before I started HRT. I got ma'am most of the time and like another person said, I didn't really give a crap if people liked what I was doing or not. I think it toughened me up some too :P
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 11, 2011, 09:34:57 PM
I have a question.. What constitutes full time? Is passing a necessity? I live as a woman, but don't pass at this point.. I've been on hormones about 4.5 months, but lived this way even before.. Transition is about me and my happiness/contentment. I've taken what steps I could, when I could..
I was talking with my therapist about something quite similar today.
I started my physical transition when I started hormones back in June. I've been part-time for most of this year and I'm going full time starting 9/16. That's the social transition.
But, my identity transition is done. I'm David only in the legal sense. Connie is my true identity. The social transition will be complete when Connie is my legal identity, too.
I wanted to do the very thing you're talking about Jessica, but it didn't turn out that way. I had intended to go on HRT for up to 6 months and then go full time, but as it turned out I was about to go back to school for 6 months and I got to thinking about it and realizing that I really didn't want to go to school as a guy. It moved the whole thing up. So I signed up for school with the intention of starting HRT just before and then going full time on the first day of school. As it turned out I needed a small revision surgery on my toe so I held off on starting HRT for a couple extra weeks and actually ended up going full time before I started E, basically a good 6 months before I thought I would.
I guess I have been fortunate so far that people either haven't cared I was trans, or they didn't notice. Certainly I was really surprised when I went to school and people still talked to me and treated me normally. So I didn't hit the end of my rope necessarily, but maybe I had the luxury of being able to pass (at least sort of) even before I started HRT.
I'm glad this has turned out to be a productive and calm discussion. I was really nervous that it could turn into a flame-fest but everyone has discussed their reasoning very well without being negative and dismissive to others. I certainly feel like I have a little more insight into the minds and lives of others after reading everyone's comments so far.
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here but I do know that it has gotten worse with age and seems to be picking up speed so I guess what I'm doing is accepting that I won't be able to beat the GID so I may as well make plans to transition in the least painful way, while I still have choices in the timing.
Transition is a unique and personal process and I thank you all for sharing your stories.
Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others...
I had felt like this when I first started visiting this site. That was about 4 years ago. I really wasn't aware of my dysphoria as gender related. But, I had this nagging sense of being depressed and out of sorts for most of my life post-puberty. When I had the sudden insight that it was gender related, it was like a huge burden was lifted. It was relief, and now my transition is underway.
Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here...
You can't compare yourself to others... As cliche as it is to say this, you're the only one who can define yourself. I guess by now you realize that though ;)
I started going full-time pretty much as soon as I told a few friends. I just cut my hair off, started building up a male wardrobe, got a couple of binders and changed my name. I was getting ma'amed for quite a while and still occassionally get the odd female pronoun at work which is a little embarrassing because I'm completely stealth. But for me, it was more about getting my friends and family comfortable with the idea before making any permanent changes. I didn't want to call my dad one day with a deep, gravelly voice or visit him with 5:00 shadow. And as well, I had just moved to a whole new city that is a lot smaller, a lot less open-minded and a lot less queer. I'm living with another transguy as well, so I'd be risking his social status and his health by coming out - either people would figure him out or they'd see him as "harbouring a ->-bleeped-<-" and he could get his ass kicked and be shunned. People don't really even talk about being gay or bisexual here, so transsexuality is pretty taboo...
I figured my best bet would be to go in to this new city as Ryan, a fully male person. I figure if anyone does ask, which I highly highly doubt anyone would, I could just say I have a problem with my pituitary gland, I have low T, I have a medical condition, I'm intersex, or it's none of their g** d*** business. (The latter sounds like the best answer - I'd rather not lie and use a medical condition I don't even have). But no one really seems to suspect me of anything. I guess I pass well enough.
My only problem is girls. They're really cute in this city. And for once, they notice me. They treat me like a guy and there's a bit of casual flirting going on. Nothing heavy obviously, I'm not that good looking, but damn it's hard. There is a girl I like and I'm afraid to do anything D:
I started HRT shortly after I went full time. I had planned it that way. Of course the first step was to come out at work, second was to start my RLT followed closely by HRT. The way I saw this was that results from HRT are not instantaneous, and starting HRT would not convince all those in the company that I was a woman. Coming out and starting my RLE was more important to me than HRT, it also avoided complications of trying to hide any changes before I came out which can be tricky especially if breast development is significant. I felt that employees would be better able to rationalize seeing these changes after I came out and started RLT.
It worked out very well in my situation.
Quote from: JessicaH on September 11, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
I wonder sometimes if I'm "trans" enough because my disphoria doesn't seem as bad as some others here ......
Actually THAT seems to be the point that divides our community. People want to claim "I'm more trans than you because I took a knife to my..." or "I was suicidal". I could turn it around and say I was more trans than them because I starting living full time with ZERO medical support I needed this so badly. BUT none of that is true. We all have gender identity issues and each person has to figure out what they need to do to resolve it by
doing things that improve the quality of their lives.
Only you can decide what improves your life. For someone who is shy, being full time before they pass really well from months or more of HRT would decrease the quality of their lives. For an extroverted person, it would improve it by not waiting and suffering for no good reason. I had to make the choice between taking E and having a NASTY headache 24/7 or living without it. For me taking E lowered the overall quality of my life more than taking it improved it. Although Spiro has made a HUGE improvement in my life. We all have choices to make and how we make them doesn't reflect on "how trans we are" or how much of a man/woman we are no matter what some people say otherwise.
Simple answer:
Because in SA it is prescriptive according their interpretation of the SoC. 1 year RLE before HRT!
I understand the same is the case, was the case? in Germany and Switzerland.
NUTS, all I can say,
Went FT 4 month before DIY HRT, - due to the issue, see above.
Also, FT after 2nd 'gatekeeper' meeting 2 weeks after 1st meeting.
I just COULD NOT switch back and forth.
My GID went through the roof when I had to go back to boy-guise.
So the decision was simple, and to hell if I was going to be clocked.
BTW my avatar shows me pre-HRT.
Axelle
I wasn't willing to wait however long I was going to have to wait to get HRT to start living my life the way I wanted to. Therefore, I lived as a girl(I'm young :P) for over a year and a half now! HRT is coming soon! Yippe!
I'm in a similar position to Axelle; in the UK you need to have lived F/T for at least 3 months before they'll prescribe HRT - and by GIC standards, F/T = change of name, IDs, etc. Used to be longer - again, I think it was a year. Thank God they changed it, I'd have gone nuts :S
I'm going to apply hindsight in answering your question Jessica. But first I want to say I once asked the same question, as going full time, without having been on HRT for a while, made no sense to me.
Now I know HRT can affect your thinking. And it can take whatever inclinations one has about living life in the opposite gender and make them stronger. In other words, if you're on the fence, HRT can push you over it. So HRT can create a situation that's not truly congruous with one's personality. And that can result in a false positive.
Sure, if you transition you will most likely remain on HRT for the rest of your life. But that logic is like saying if you place yourself in a depressing situation you'll be okay, as long as you take anti-depressants the rest of your life.
My hindsight tells me you must first KNOW, not guess, not suspect, but actually know you need to transition. But if you don't know for sure and want to know, why not do the RLE to find out? No doubt, passing will be tougher. But if you still want to transition after that, you'll really know for sure this is right for you.
I realize going on HRT is a great way to experience a little of what it might be like to transition. And most can do it for a while without anyone knowing. Kind of like our little secret, and behind closed doors or out on late evening jaunts, it's great. But it does little in preparing you for the realities of transitioning and usually increases your belief transitioning is right for you. There's an element of illusion living this experience.
I look at my partner Julie. Hands down, without a doubt, I knew transition was right for her. And today she will tell you it was. I can't say the same for me. As time goes on, I am finding the pendulum swinging back to male more and more. I'm also getting tired of all the work I have to do to pass. And I think I've ruined my voice. I'd categorize myself as one of the fence sitters that HRT pushed over.
Now I can see the logic in doing the RLE before HRT.
Julie Marie, that is a great point of view and one I have not thought of. Personally, I was pretty damn sure of what I was but I just wanted to make sure I felt the same way after my T bottomed out and I was full of E. After that, I felt ready to start doing things I always thought were impossible, like sitting in front of a doctor and therapist and tell them the secret I have alwasy guarded with my life.
If someone wants to transition socially before HRT, I support them 100 percent but for gatekeepers to deny treatment with HRT becasue you aren't willing to transition without the help of HRT is absolutely cruel, in my honest opinion. I'm not sure what I'd do if that were my only option. One thing I have found out in the last year is that as the GID gets stronger, you will do things you never thought possible to relieve it's pain and pressure.
I have heard that trans people make a "choice" to transition. I guess it's a choice if you consider the other options to be viable choices. I kinda think it's like judging someone who leaps to their death from a tall building and forgeting to mention that they had second degree burns from the flames that instinctively lead the survival instinct to get away from the most immediate pain and harm.
So that leads me to a question. Should we be denied treatment until our pain gets so bad that we are at the point that nothing else matters and we will play the game like they want? Or are do we deserve compassion and RESPECT over our bodies and destiny? I know I have choices that many do not have but it just ignites a fury inside me that my brothers and sisters are treated this way by the system that is supposed to HELP us. I think we all should DEMAND better and NOT accept the status quo!
Ok, I got off on a tangent.....I also think my HRT is out of whack becasue I have had some serious anger and iritability issues lately. ;D >:( :P
Quote from: JessicaH on September 12, 2011, 03:11:26 PM
Julie Marie, that is a great point of view and one I have not thought of.
Many years ago I decided there is no way I could live full time, it just takes too much effort everyday to make myself "passable". Back then it might take 2 hours to get myself fem looking. I have MPB so have always had to wear a wig and they were hot and uncomfortable. I did think I could deal with that either.
I've discovered in a rush at this point I can get from bed to out the door in 20 minutes including shower and makeup. Most days casually doing this while fixing/drinking coffee, picking out and ironing etc takes like 45 minutes. I've found a comfortable wig I love and gotten very used to it. "Dealing" with being a woman isn't nearly the hassle I envisioned. Sure it takes time to keep my nails nice but some things like going to nail spa isn't too much suffering :) Makeup is getting easier and as my skin improves, I need less.
For me I knew this wasn't driven sexually but I wasn't sure I wanted to force myself with having to deal with being a woman the rest of my life. I needed to do a RLT for myself and make SURE I could deal with this on a daily basis before I got on HRT, had any surgery etc. For others maybe getting on HRT would prove to themselves this isn't sexually motivated before they turn their life upside down going full time.
I don't think there is one solution that works for everyone about any of this.
Your initial post, Jessica, pretty much lays out my own plans. I have only been on hormones for 2 1/2 weeks and plan on going stealth as long as possible. One day, when it's time, I'll take some time off and get FFS and whatever else needs to be done (non-op, but plan on the probability that I will need to get some nips and tucks eventually to finish filling out).
I was actually surprised that my doctor couldn't seem to understand that and thought it abnormal. Apparently the normal thing would be for me to immediately start presenting in fem mode, never mind the fact that I'm over 6' tall and have no curves.
I understand how people feel, going through GID myself, sometimes feeling like I was going crazy and wanting to rip my male-ness off along with my skin, but the fact remains that female clothes are made for female shapes and going out dressed as a female without having any sort of female body parts to fill them out (especially at my height) is just painting a target on yourself.
Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it.
Patience is the key. Being on HRT means you ARE moving forward. It's much better to let things flow naturally than to rush it, otherwise you're just creating more problems for yourself.
Quote from: Julie Marie on September 12, 2011, 01:34:34 PM
I can't say the same for me. As time goes on, I am finding the pendulum swinging back to male more and more. I'm also getting tired of all the work I have to do to pass. And I think I've ruined my voice. I'd categorize myself as one of the fence sitters that HRT pushed over. Now I can see the logic in doing the RLE before HRT.
Julie Marie, the idea of making a mistake of this magnetude terrifies me and, like JessicaH, I too have fears of not being sacked with enough "dysphoria" to feel the need to do or die. I just don't really see the reason to live any more. I tried everything that was supposed to make me "happy" and the "TG Thing" has always followed.
I think that there are two groups of us.... those that insist that they are the opposite gender from the time they can talk....... and then there are those of us that fight it tooth and nail every step of they way, only to discover that we too could not reasonable hold out and expect to enjoy the rest of our lives with who we are.
For me, I knew I was trans but the idea of transitioning was just too scary. It wasn't until I got on HRT that I realized it made me feel "so right" I could not go back. I do hope that I never regret these decisions but they are decades in the works and nothing in my life, or probably anyone that is reading this, has been given as much thought as "To transition or not to transition".... Not our choice of careers, schooling, choice of spouses, when to have and how to raise our children, our diet and exercise programs. For me at least, the "question" has demanded more time than all of the together.
I realized I was transitioning when I realized (thanks to my BFF for pointing it out to me) that "If you stay on HRT then you ARE TRANSITIONING" and I couldn't ever imagine not having access to E and going back to "that feeling". So while I deeply wanted to transition I found myself having to decide between the great possibility of loosing "it all" (my wife, kids, businesses, house, toys, etc.) and found myself making the long and hard decision that transition was really the only choice to enjoy the second half of my life.
I hope with all of this thought that the regret will later be for not doing it earlier than doing it at all. I feel confident it will.
I can portray my reason, which seems to be common, in one quote: "There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."
I fell into a deep depression for a while before I started living full time. My breaking point was at an airport, when I was dressed in skinny jeans and a tight fitted t-shirt. I wasn't even trying to dress that day, it was all men's clothing, but a security guard shot me a "ma'am" when my back was turned. I was in a good mood for the rest of the day. After that I was in complete overdrive. Within a couple weeks, I went from full time male to full time female. I cringed at any male pronouns, I started to build a new wardrobe, and I started coming out. I didn't care if people thought the change was too drastic, or even if I passed perfectly in public. I realized I would rather have an entire room full of people staring at me if it meant looking the way I want, instead of being "normal" and keeping up this boy act. I would get comments from friends, and I'd reply "yeah, I may be a freak to you, but I'm me now." As for strangers who cringe when they figure out what's between my legs, well, they can....[insert sexually graphic comment]. :)
Quote from: NatashaD on September 12, 2011, 11:00:03 PM
but the fact remains that female clothes are made for female shapes and going out dressed as a female without having any sort of female body parts to fill them out (especially at my height) is just painting a target on yourself.
Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it.
Two points,
one: not all womens clothing looks good on any female. Clothes are made in ALL kinds of shapes to flatter different body types. Many females have few curves either. I am VERY picky about the clothes I choose and how they are cut. I have few natural curves but feel I have clothes that are very flattering to me. I have accepted that some clothes will NEVER look good on me, like I know I'll never pull off looking good in a skimpy sun dress. There are plenty of females who can't either. Pencil skirts look awful on me, A line skirts look great.. Ultra short sleeves or sleeveless looks BAD on me, low cut v necks look great. Born females have to deal with this same issue, finding what looks good for their body type and avoiding what doesn't. BTW I'm 6' tall too.
Second, HRT isn't going to cure this "Sort of like Die Hard 3 when Bruce Willis had to walk down Harlem wearing a sandwich sign with the N-word on it" and if you feel like this even a tiny little bit, you might as well wear a "I'm a ->-bleeped-<-, kick here" sandwich board. As others have posted at least 75% of passing is your attitude and how you carry yourself.
Agree with you 100000000% Stephe, it is attitude.
But I want to add, HRT helps with giving you peace of mind and increasing your dose of self-steem, what in the end helps with passing. I think how it works in you mentally helps more in passing than the external changes. It is harder to go full time without it and I have a lot of respect for anyone who took that path.
Quote from: Bird on September 13, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
Agree with you 100000000% Stephe, it is attitude.
But I want to add, HRT helps with giving you peace of mind and increasing your dose of self-steem, what in the end helps with passing. I think how it works in you mentally helps more in passing than the external changes. It is harder to go full time without it and I have a lot of respect for anyone who took that path.
Agreed.
I noticed emotional and mental change not long after starting HRT. I've got more confidence now than I had before, and I'm more outgoing. I'm not an extrovert yet, but I'm not as shy as I used to be, either.
I have a few questions to ask that some people could take the wrong way so please know that my questions are honest and I have no agenda but to learn what I can from others. If my observations are incorect, please simply explain why I'm off base.
So...... I'm not sure if attitude really helps with passing. I have seen plenty of anxious or nervous ciswomen and not once did I think they might be trans. I DO however think that being confident in what you do will make people feel at ease and it's also hard to make fun of someone who is confident. It's like calling a gay guy a queer when he's marching in a pride parade and shouting "were here, we're queer"!
Unless you have a hormone imbalance or indocrine disorder, I'm just not sure that it is intellectually honest to say HRT doesn't help most people more passable. I'm 41 and I have seen a great amount of changes in the last 9 months that I have been on HRT and I would be much more passable when presenting female due to this. I respect other peoples choices on how they manage thier transitions but I think it is a misrepresentation of facts if someone says HRT isn't important in passing (considering that is your goal). There are certainly some other elements to passing, like beard removal, mannerisms,voice, skeletal features (which may even require surgery) and so on.
I guess one would also have to take into account what the most important goal is in transition, as well. Is it freedom to be yourself? Is it to see yourself as female and the world to see you as female? I'm sure I'm missing some other aspects and I trust that someone will help me fill in some spots here.
Again, this is kind of an open discussion and thinking out loud. Please put in your two cent and try to be nice. If something is offensive to you, please assume it wasn't intended to be!!!
With love, JessicaH
Quote from: JessicaH on September 13, 2011, 03:21:49 PM
I have a few questions to ask that some people could take the wrong way so please know that my questions are honest and I have no agenda but to learn what I can from others. If my observations are incorect, please simply explain why I'm off base.
So...... I'm not sure if attitude really helps with passing. I have seen plenty of anxious or nervous ciswomen and not once did I think they might be trans. I DO however think that being confident in what you do will make people feel at ease and it's also hard to make fun of someone who is confident. It's like calling a gay guy a queer when he's marching in a pride parade and shouting "were here, we're queer"!
Unless you have a hormone imbalance or indocrine disorder, I'm just not sure that it is intellectually honest to say HRT doesn't help most people more passable. I'm 41 and I have seen a great amount of changes in the last 9 months that I have been on HRT and I would be much more passable when presenting female due to this. I respect other peoples choices on how they manage thier transitions but I think it is a misrepresentation of facts if someone says HRT isn't important in passing (considering that is your goal). There are certainly some other elements to passing, like beard removal, mannerisms,voice, skeletal features (which may even require surgery) and so on.
I guess one would also have to take into account what the most important goal is in transition, as well. Is it freedom to be yourself? Is it to see yourself as female and the world to see you as female? I'm sure I'm missing some other aspects and I trust that someone will help me fill in some spots here.
Again, this is kind of an open discussion and thinking out loud. Please put in your two cent and try to be nice. If something is offensive to you, please assume it wasn't intended to be!!!
With love, JessicaH
I agree. Confidence helps, but it's not going to really make or break your passing ability. It's kind of like when people say that what words you speak with and how animated your voice is will make you pass vocally, when it really just comes down to pitch and resonance.
My experience of transition was more like a dam slowly opening rather than crumbling. I accepted the fact that I would transition nearly 15 months before starting hormones, but I took that 15 months to grow my hair out, learn how to wear makeup, and experiment with whether or not feminizing my appearance made me feel better or fueled the flames in my head (I was testing whether or not transition was the answer and not a diversion from some other problem).
However, I was fortunate to have a job that didn't care how I dressed or looked, as I was a peer tutor and not held to a dress code higher than what any other college student could wear to class without being arrested. So I wore the makeup to work and everyone assumed I was merely emo. But the change in me as I shifted my appearance from unmistakably male to androgynous gave me all the answers I needed as to whether or not going all the way in transition was right. That was the point when I knew I was ready for hormones and made a therapist appointment. I told her everything I had done, everything I wanted to do, and was pleased to find out that while she thinks the SoC are good guidelines, some people are simply ready to go the moment they walk in the door. I got my letter on my second appointment.
But that doesn't mean I went full time! I simply could not see myself doing it until my body and (I hoped at the time) face feminized to a point that I could just step out into the world on day 1 confident that I'd pass. With limited income, I didn't want to invest in false breasts. I wanted to grow some of my own before full time. Now I understand this is a luxury I had that many don't, but I didn't want to have to buy a wig and my face was WAY too blocky for short haircuts. My hair had to be long enough to hit my shoulders before I'd consider going full time.
And so, when I ticked that last mental box saying I was ready, I jumped right in. Face was feminizing (and has even come a long way since), breasts started growing, hair was long enough, and I had enough clothing to last me a week thanks to a friend who donated to my cause.
When it comes to confidence and attitude, I simply would have had neither before that checklist was complete. The reason being, and to answer your question, the goal of my transition was to have the world see me as nothing but female. I had nothing to prove to myself.
Zoe,
Mine is a similar story. A few months before I had actually pinned down the cause of my feelings, I started wearing tighter clothes, growing my hair out and wearing makeup, and looking as androgynous as possible. Mannerisms and dialect changed on their own, and I had no idea what to think. Everyone told me I was a gay man, but I knew I didn't like men, nor did I feel like a man at all, so I didn't know how to identify myself. It definitely paid off once I figured everything out; I have hair that's a decent length to pass, and the transition doesn't seem so "sudden" to everyone since the men's clothes I wore are similar to the girls' close I wear now.
Quote from: JessicaH on September 13, 2011, 03:21:49 PM
So...... I'm not sure if attitude really helps with passing. I have seen plenty of anxious or nervous ciswomen and not once did I think they might be trans. I DO however think that being confident in what you do will make people feel at ease and it's also hard to make fun of someone who is confident.
A couple of points. Being nervous or anxious makes people notice you, which is step one to being read. If you are uber confidant and someone thinks they might read you, you will appear to them -this is how they are supposed to be, what are you thinking- and they are more willing to just accept that you are what you appear to be. If you are acting all scared and self conscious, you might as well wear a sign of your back saying "Kick me I'm a ->-bleeped-<-" no matter how well you think you pass. Sorry but I totally disagree on your thoughts about not being sure if attitude really helps with passing. Without confidence, you will never pass.
I didn't say HRT doesn't help or is a bad idea etc, I don't think anyone did. I'm just saying that HRT IMHO isn't a huge part of being able to pass/live full time successfully. Again, this is just in my honest opinion. You don't have to agree :)
Quote from: Stephe on September 13, 2011, 08:35:35 PM
A couple of points. Being nervous or anxious makes people notice you, which is step one to being read. If you are uber confidant and someone thinks they might read you, you will appear to them -this is how they are supposed to be, what are you thinking- and they are more willing to just accept that you are what you appear to be. If you are acting all scared and self conscious, you might as well wear a sign of your back saying "Kick me I'm a ->-bleeped-<-" no matter how well you think you pass. Sorry but I totally disagree on your thoughts about not being sure if attitude really helps with passing. Without confidence, you will never pass.
I didn't say HRT doesn't help or is a bad idea etc, I don't think anyone did. I'm just saying that HRT IMHO isn't a huge part of being able to pass/live full time successfully. Again, this is just in my honest opinion. You don't have to agree :)
You have some good points there. I'm very glad that we can discuss all this like friend. After all, how does anyone learn anything if they can't discuss something they are not in agreement with. We all definately have enough obstacles in this path we were pushed down, without fighting each other over words and ideas. I appreciate the uniqueness of everyone here and I support everyone here in how they ttransition.
A few years ago when I was pre everything I realized that due to personal situations I may never get HRT, SRS, etc. So i decided to tell everybody and stated to dress as I wished and I was not concern in passing or not. I just felt like a confident bussines woman, and went about my business as such.
Well, my experience is that beside a few double takes, I have not been harassed. At work and at places and people I frequent everbody treats me as a female. I do not have any breast to speak off yet with my long hair and polished nails I pass all the time. Now I am about to styart on E
My point is that perhaps success is due to my energy projection, "I am a female"
Jen61
Quote from: JessicaH on September 13, 2011, 08:57:07 PM
You have some good points there. I'm very glad that we can discuss all this like friend.
And you have valid reasons for your thoughts as well. I just wanted to share that my "passability" has changed over the last year a lot and I think most of it has to do with my confidence. I have to add that being on HRT and having some minor FFS gave me a HUGE boost of confidence. I do feel that it's more my confidence level that caused this change but it's likely a mixture of all of them.
I guess my point was, don't discount the confidence part of this equation. If you need HRT to become confident, then it will help you a lot. I just feel it's the confidence part that does more than the changes to your appearance.
Quote from: Jen61 on September 13, 2011, 09:24:09 PM
My point is that perhaps my success is due to my energy projection, "I am a female"
It sure it is. Where you are is a hard place to get for many people, myself included. Now that I am there, I can see clearly why this is so important.
I just recently joined this forum very interested in the whole hormone part of transition.
There is also how I see it, while cosmetically I could transition into female and freak my daughters out or I could slowly physically transition so they can see not only the person that I am but who I transform into. I am definitely not interested in reversing what I do its more of a matter of resources to achieve the goals I want to reach. I am married with children this doesn't only reflect or effect me but effects them. I want them to understand I want to be part of their life and as best I can slip into that role.
Most of my life has been fit around making others happy its a hard theme to break and open up. So is it better that I do HRT first, in some ways I already have traits in other ways I have a ingrained mind male set that needs to be torn down. There is a lot of self discovery going on here, especially with therapy.
there are many shrinks who feel that TSism is mental illness and in my town a couple of years back the local gender clinic shrinks were asked if TSism was a mental illness and they refused to say NO.
These shrinks are stuck in the past and feel they have to control us so in fact they try to stick to the requirement to do RLE before agreeing HRT.
and to show how stupid they are and why I have a big case going through the courts I had been legally female for almost two years and was four years on HRT by our NHS but when I finally got to gender clinic the shrinks actually wrote on my file 'six months wait and assessmnets before we decide if SHE can have hormones.' This is the stupidity of shrinks who feel above the law and also do not understand what TSism really is.
To each their own. I went full time right after I got my legal name change, breast augmentation, and rhinoplasty. At that time I had been on HRT for 20 months. Passing to me is important so I couldn't see myself going full time overnight. And to me it just makes more sense to have a plan and take it step by step instead of just jumping right into something that could set someone up for failure.
Quote from: Stephe on September 12, 2011, 11:01:17 AM
For someone who is shy, being full time before they pass really well from months or more of HRT would decrease the quality of their lives.
I've always been quite shy when I first meet people & the better I know people the more I come out of my shell, when I first came out I went out as female & my friends were very supportive. I couldn't face living as a man any longer so started going out as a woman but after a few bad experiences my confidence was destroyed & I can't bring myself to go out as female right now, I also find being male so hard right now that I can't face going out in social situations as a male so at the moment I just don't go out.
So you are spot on when you say that being full time before you pass can decrease the quality of your life.
I was very shy as a man. But being out en femme and having people react to me with love and kindness boosted my self-confidence to the point where I went full time about 3 months after starting HRT.
But, that was how it played out for me.
I has the same view I wasn't going to transition unless I could be at least reasonably passable while part of me wanted it I need to do other things in my life and I won't let my transition swallow everything.
Whitch lead to my course of action I started HRT but didn't tell anyone until several months later... except for one or two close friends. Ultimately I did transition and go fulltime I'm aware of how lucky I am and while I reckon maybe 3-5% of the time I might not pass it's good enough for me I suppose.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 05, 2011, 10:00:37 AM
Passing to me is important...
...to me it just makes more sense to have a plan and take it step by step instead of just jumping right into something that could set someone up for failure.
I absolutely agree. I have a very specific transition plan and intend on following it. I am soon nearing my fourth month on HRT and have no plans of going full-time at this point. However, I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect time to go full-time, only the right time; which is specific to each of us individually.
For personal reasons I can't go fulltime yet, but I am spending as much time as I possibly can out in the world as myself. So far, I haven't had any problems, and people relate to me as a woman. How much of this is passing, and how much is just plain human decency, I'm not sure, but it feels the same: comfortable and uneventful, with a pleasing change in the way women relate to me--friendlier, and less guarded. I plan to start HRT in a couple of months, but like others here who frankly lost patience with living a lie, I got tired of waiting to begin my real life. I haven't had my medical tests done yet at the trans clinic, and for all I know I may not be able to have HRT or SRS, anyway; but that's not going to keep me from living the way I was meant to.
:) Lallie
My personal plan is to "androgynize" myself to the point I could pass as male or female (using FFS and at least androgen blockers) where I can test the waters of both sexes - I've studied MTF patients for a long time and the ones that have the ability to pass as male or female from birth are actually the happiest and most confident from the get-go, and this is exactly what I feel is needed to test myself and see what's up. There's no negatives to it - I'd be more beautiful as a man and more beautiful as a woman, gender attributes are not set in stone in my age, one look at Justin Beiber proves that. So by my plan, I have no negatives. Any other plan, especially the ones therapists have recommended? Full of pot holes.
20 Months full-time, still no hormones, ****ing NHS
Good job im so damn pretty XD (joke lol)
Edit: Probably worth mentioning that Im glad i went full time before HRT because i would have had to do the last 20 months with much worse dysphoria. I didnt realise i would still be waiting for HRT at this point and i have done a LOT of work making myself look better in these 20 months
get a Human Rights lawyer involved. the HRA guarantees the NHS has to help you transition if you feel TS even without official diagnosis.
They lost my paperwork, thats the setback, i was ok'ed to be reffered to Charing Cross within 3 appointments with my local gender specialist and told not to worry if i didnt hear within 6 months because of the waiting list. I got into contact with charing cross after 6 months and was told no reffereal was ever recieved and that it was probably "lost in the post". Im now waiting for another appointment with my local specialist to get a new refferal started. Its a joke really, after such a fast track up to the point of refferal its killing my soul not knowing what is going on
In the SA system - inherited from UK? Switzerland? or some place in Europe NO hormones are prescribed until after at least one year RLE - and having the 'green light' by the gatekeeper AND GRS unit! In fact really only after the first op i.e. penectomy and orchiectomy.
So about 1 1/2 to 2 years after the first session with the gatekeeper!!
When I went through this mill I could not BELIEVE it, yet so it is.
My gatekeeper was showing SHOCK when I asked him for HRT after I'd seen him for 3 month and about 6 times.
Reason:
It would make me change, behave differently, and so he would not be able to assess me correctly. Yet I had to be full time 24/7/365 RLE to show my full integration into the female role... ah... I just wanted to jump in the lake and not bother to come up again.
After some more rational thinking I did DIY, and then found a GP that was prepared to give me a prescription.
If the gatekeeper would have learned out it - he told me beforehand - he would terminate my sessions. Also if I cried - he also would terminate the sessions - due to lack of 'stability'.
Him being the only one that would clear anyone for SRS in SA, or at least for the practically only SA 'GRS-unit' (free of charge) in the Pretoria state hospital.
(They done some 50 ops to date only and the results look - bad)
The only other SA 'unit' is in Cape Town has a ~3 year waiting list and does about 3 ops a year only. So this would make > 3 years RLE without any HRT support.
So, ... some HRT decisions are, like hell, not only yours.
Welcome to the world of trans...
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on December 09, 2011, 12:47:53 PM
In the SA system - inherited from UK? Switzerland? or some place in Europe NO hormones are prescribed until after at least one year RLE - and having the 'green light' by the gatekeeper AND GRS unit! In fact really only after the first op i.e. penectomy and orchiectomy.
So about 1 1/2 to 2 years after the first session with the gatekeeper!!
When I went through this mill I could not BELIEVE it, yet so it is.
My gatekeeper was showing SHOCK when I asked him for HRT after I'd seen him for 3 month and about 6 times.
Reason:
It would make me change, behave differently, and so he would not be able to assess me correctly. Yet I had to be full time 24/7/365 RLE to show my full integration into the female role... ah... I just wanted to jump in the lake and not bother to come up again.
After some more rational thinking I did DIY, and then found a GP that was prepared to give me a prescription.
If the gatekeeper would have learned out it - he told me beforehand - he would terminate my sessions. Also if I cried - he also would terminate the sessions - due to lack of 'stability'.
Him being the only one that would clear anyone for SRS in SA, or at least for the practically only SA 'GRS-unit' (free of charge) in the Pretoria state hospital.
(They done some 50 ops to date only and the results look - bad)
The only other SA 'unit' is in Cape Town has a ~3 year waiting list and does about 3 ops a year only. So this would make > 3 years RLE without any HRT support.
So, ... some HRT decisions are, like hell, not only yours.
Welcome to the world of trans...
Axélle
How awfull, stalinistc in nature
Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 01:05:25 PM
How awfull, stalinistc in nature
Hum, and all based on SoC as they like to see it.
Interpretation makes their world go round...
Stalinist, fascist, nationalist, only the finest of it all :-)
Axélle
Quote from: Annah on September 09, 2011, 03:28:52 PM
I was one who started fulltime before I went on HRT. For me, it was my own decision that, if I could not cut it presenting female to others on a fulltime bases, then why in the world would I subject my body to the changes and permanent changes HRT will make.
Also, remember, there are some countries that require at least some fulltime RLE before consideration for HRT is given.
I had no problems passing fulltime without the hrt. I was only fulltime for about 3 months before hrt, but i hadnt had any issues.n A lot of passing has to do with attitude more than the pills in my opinion.
I could pretty much Ctrl + C and Ctrl + V this for my own sentiments and what I did for my transition - I transitioned three months before HRT too!
Interestingly as well, I seemed to start looking more feminine after I decided to transition and presented as female, even though I hadn't started taking hormones! At the time you could have mistaken it for wishful thinking, but I look back at photos now, five years later, and my photos at 17 look more masculine than when I was 19 (pictures without makeup) and about to transition.
I was told by my Sister that I would have to have an initial consultation with the Endo, have a chat with the hospital's Psychologist and get a blood test done before I could start HRT.
None of that happened for me. It was just a physical and then prescription. Then word got out that I was on hormones. 2 months later I was Keaira full time. Mainly because people at work found out I was on HRT and some of the men I worked with got a little uncomfortable with me sharing the bathroom with them. So I ended up using the women's bathroom and getting my name tag changed on my uniforms. My doctor is even writing me a letter so I can get my gender marker changed.
I did no RLE of any sort. I decided to transition, saw my doctor, wrote a ton of letters and went on with my life. I tried to get everything done as quickly as possible and in a way that impacted my life the least. If I could do it again, I'd do it exactly the same way.
The official(and free) way in our country is that you have to change your gender marker and name before you get the approval for HRT and SRS. Not many adhere to this regulation, most people here self medicate for a while, or pay a private doctor to do the blood-work and prescribe hormones.
I find it quite hard to understand the reasoning behind the official method, it doesn't really make any sense, a lot of people have a hard time passing without HRT, why push them into a really uncomfortable situation?
I'm lucky because I would be alright without HRT if I work on my voice, but I don't want to wait too long to start it, but given my financial situation I may have wait until I can get my name changed.
Quote from: Anne Caitlyn on December 27, 2011, 05:30:21 AM
The official(and free) way in our country is that you have to change your gender marker and name before you get the approval for HRT and SRS. Not many adhere to this regulation, most people here self medicate for a while, or pay a private doctor to do the blood-work and prescribe hormones.
I find it quite hard to understand the reasoning behind the official method, it doesn't really make any sense, a lot of people have a hard time passing without HRT, why push them into a really uncomfortable situation?
I'm lucky because I would be alright without HRT if I work on my voice, but I don't want to wait too long to start it, but given my financial situation I may have wait until I can get my name changed.
It keeps on to amaze me how so very different the SoC are being interpreted... hard to find words.
In my place of residence SA, I can NOT change my name, nor my gender marker (NO WAYS!) and then they expect us to go full time RLE without HRT for more then 1 year - mostly it becomes 2 years!
This is the time when you might have your 1st op (penectomy and orchiectomy - NO vaginoplasty yet!) THEN only may you get HRT clearance, and change your name and gender marker.
The obvious workaround, DIY HRT... and if you a citizen (not just a resident like I am) can apply to have your name changed - but gender change is only possible after GCS/SRS/GRS. It then will take another year or more before one's ID document is finally changed! At very best a 3 year process during which you need to work as a female with a male ID!
A very frustrating situation if you have to have GCS in SA. Otherwise some more sane rulings of 1 year HRT plus RLE will be fine, plus ONE letter for GCS, as is the case with Thailand surgeons.
Axélle
PS: may I ask your country id that is not an issue?
I live in Hungary, Central Europe. The whole gender marker and name change can be done in 2-3 months if you have a little money and a little luck with appointments. You only need to mail the government 3 medical reports(psychologist, psychiatrist, urologist) along with your request and they send you your new birth certificate(at least 1 month) and then you can start to change all your other documents as well.
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 27, 2011, 06:56:01 AM
This is the time when you might have your 1st op (penectomy and orchiectomy - NO vaginoplasty yet!) THEN only may you get HRT clearance, and change your name and gender marker.
I have to ask this, how do they do a vaginoplasty after you've had a penectomy? Given that the penis provides a lot of the donor tissue for a vaginoplasty?
Quote from: kelly_aus on December 27, 2011, 06:34:05 PM
I have to ask this, how do they do a vaginoplasty after you've had a penectomy? Given that the penis provides a lot of the donor tissue for a vaginoplasty?
Kelly, they (SBAH) ONLY do colovaginoplasty, yet they do 'keep' ALL scrotal and penile skin. How?
Both just bunched up (like two Turkish figs) behind a now created mini penis, sticking out in a perpetual mini erection. That's what I saw.
So, their version of penectomy mostly removes corpus cavernosa.
Furthermore, the urethra is not placed yet in the correct anatomical location i.e. further back, but comes out right after the mini penis, (to become the clit during 3d op). It's sort of like an early T Metoidioplasty clit... the size of a pinkie.
That is so, because there being no vagina/vaginal channel at the first op, the urethra be in the way during the 2nd op, i.e. colovaginoplasty.
The 3rd op then endeavours to create labia majora and minora from those 'Turkish figs' plus relocating the urethra (if you lucky...) and often easing open the ring-scar at the vaginal entry.
I hope this makes it clear - whether it makes sense, is written on another page :-)
Axélle
SABH = Steve Biko Academic Hospital, in Pretoria
Got that right hon,
I spend my last cent on having GCS in Phuket --- and I'm glad I did it.
Had some major motivation, right... :-)
They now they try to gather a group of 'victims' of that protocol- which is strictly OK for natal females with cervical and vaginal cancer. That 2nd op, colovaginoplasty is mostly designed just for that.
GRS is just put piggy-back on it all, so as to save cost.
After all, those ops are free of charge.
And so you get what you pay for... well?
Axélle
I only just started HRT and have been living full time since 2003.
I did it because there was absolutely no fricking way I was going to continue living as female, knowing it made me unhappy, just because I couldn't afford hormones yet. My personal appearance had nothing to do with it. I found a group of people that accepted me and didn't care that I didn't pass to strangers yet.
Because of that experience I eventually gained the behavior and dress skills to pass pre-HRT. That took time, though, and I'd be socially very far behind if I had just decided to wait until hormones.
Well I go as full as I can, with my friends they call me a boy and refer to me as "Thomas" all the time. (Ick!)
When I am by myself and walking around I usually get seen as a girl even when I am dressed like a boy.
Once I got "Hey beautiful lady." walking home, and another time a guy checked me out while saying "I like your hair."
I just was always seen as a girl by most since I was 5. So I have always tried to keep up the appearance.
QuoteOnce I got "Hey beautiful lady." walking home, and another time a guy checked me out while saying "I like your hair."
Ooh you found a reasonably nice one... you haven't really been hit on until you've been hit on by a Foot fetishist.
"Hey pretty lady I REALLY like your feet... Have you ever walked anywhere bare footed?" What an intresting evening.
"Could I take your shoes off for you" lol XD It was in the middle of the fricking street!
Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 01:05:25 PMHow awfull, stalinistc in nature
Yep... This and the post you quoted was my general point. UK requires it.
I personally avoided that fate by aquiring hormones through other questionable means and basically doing the whole thing alone with very marginal resources.
I'm not allowed to endorse my methodology however in accordance with forum rules. But I will say I have no regrets beyond not doing it sooner.
Quote from: pebbles on January 23, 2012, 07:22:14 AMI personally avoided that fate by aquiring hormones through other questionable means and basically doing the whole thing alone with very marginal resources.
I'm not allowed to endorse my methodology however in accordance with forum rules. But I will say I have no regrets beyond not doing it sooner.
I've gone through the same thing as you, and Axelle. We've only one therapist for the whole country, and if she denies treatment, you're out forever. Not to mention that one needs to go through RLE first, then they provide you with other things, like Axelle described. It's why I've started DIY.
I doubt I'd have got a foot past the gatekeepers and I wasn't going to waste any time trying. I followed an alternative route as well and didn't have anyone telling me what I had to first, or before doing that, or being considered for this, F that! Am I rid of the GD, you bet :) Do I wish I'd done it sooner, actually no. Apart from the GD my own life has been pretty ok and I'm not convinced it would have been better with my present day adjustments, in fact there's some things I don't think I would have experienced had I moved forward too quickly.
I read this earlier from Julie Marie
"I look at my partner Julie. Hands down, without a doubt, I knew transition was right for her. And today she will tell you it was. I can't say the same for me. As time goes on, I am finding the pendulum swinging back to male more and more. I'm also getting tired of all the work I have to do to pass. And I think I've ruined my voice. I'd categorize myself as one of the fence sitters that HRT pushed over."
My own experience was the opposite. My experience pushed me back over the fence. I'm still taking E but I don't present as female or even androgynous. My chemistry is female but that's it. It's what I had to do to deal with my own GD but once that was dealt with I just wanted to get on with life without the added complication of further transition. I wonder if transition for some is a rolling stone gathering momentum and difficult to stop the faster it goes....
I know some people arent going to like this but i agree with the policy of requiring RLE before HRT. It makes sure that the people asking for these expensive and potentially dangerous drugs are serious about transitioning. This policy also makes the transitioner deal with the realities of being trans rather than living in the magic world where hormones will instantly make you a pretty princess. On the whole its a great way of saving NHS money, making sure only people who are serious and sure about transition have access to these drugs and forcing people to accept the reality of their situation. I am currently doing my hormone free HRT and i am glad it was required of me, i dont think i would pass so well if i hadnt had to make so much effort up to this point.
Quote from: Beverley on January 25, 2012, 07:14:40 AM
I would not argue with that, but there are also some people who HRT would help with the RLE. There is a lot a potential for mental illness in the trans world and there are a lot of suicides.
Letting people kill themselves off because RLE is a living hell for them, is not really a valid selection mechanism IMO
Beverley
I so DO agree with you Beverley.,
I have had "therapy" that was more concerned with the "therapist's" own reputation not making any mistakes, then any patient committing suicide.
Crying during therapy was not allowed, neither was to use the word SRS or ask for HRT. That was made VERY clear at the start. Nuts!
It's really very easy to go this way for some gatekeepers, since all that be said: "ah well, I knew... that person was mentally just too unstable, could not be given E... couldn't be saved, so sorry"
So, that was just another statistic and NO-ONE gives a damn.
Axélle
PS: I was very close during my early transition until I found ways to get HRT other then from that pompous, over-inflated, ass-hole of a 'psychiatrist'... (BTW, the only allowed gatekeeper for SA government hospitals)
I agree HRT shouldn't require RLE and IMHO they should put you on AA BEFORE you start therapy as a diagnostic tool. If you like what the AA's do, then you probably will like what the rest of HRT does as well.
As far as SRS? I strongly feel RLE should remain a requirement. Pre or post op isn't going to cause any undo strain as far as living day to day or cause you not to pass/live as a woman. If someone can't live as a woman pre op, do they think somehow this surgery is going to make being a woman some sort of instant/simple given? And honestly being a woman involves a lot more compromises than many people grasp until they are there. Well worth it IMHO but they exist none the less and people NEED to accept everything that goes along with being a woman on a daily basis first. IMHO of course.
I lived for years full time before I was on HRT and think it helped me a LOT in developing self confidence.
I'll be at seven-ish months full time by the time of my bottom surgery.
I'm not saying that would be the right way to go for everyone, but it's right for me.
Quote from: Stephe on January 25, 2012, 09:47:38 AM
As far as SRS? I strongly feel RLE should remain a requirement. Pre or post op isn't going to cause any undo strain as far as living day to day or cause you not to pass/live as a woman.
No, being pre-op doesn't cause problems for passing, other than I can't go swimming. :(
But passing was never a problem for me. As far as causing undue strain on a daily basis? Ya, it does.
Good to remember that everyone has very different experiences, different starting points, different resources, and even different kinds of dysphoria.
Well for myself, I'm trying to go "full time" because it's the only thing within reach. I don't have insurance or the cash to pay someone $200 or more a week for 1-5 years in hopes of being given permission to seek a doctor who may or may not give me a prescription. I find that all too expensive, restrictive and out of reach. A name change is a lot more within my reach, even though I fear it being denied. But I really need some significant change to be happy and to feel like my life is moving forward and that I have control over how my life's going to go for once. And I believe a name change would be hugely beneficial for me because my birth name is ultra feminine and people expect to see a beauty queen with that name on my job applications, not some fat guy.
Quote from: thefire on February 06, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Well for myself, I'm trying to go "full time" because it's the only thing within reach. I don't have insurance or the cash to pay someone $200 or more a week for 1-5 years in hopes of being given permission to seek a doctor who may or may not give me a prescription. I find that all too expensive, restrictive and out of reach. A name change is a lot more within my reach, even though I fear it being denied. But I really need some significant change to be happy and to feel like my life is moving forward and that I have control over how my life's going to go for once. And I believe a name change would be hugely beneficial for me because my birth name is ultra feminine and people expect to see a beauty queen with that name on my job applications, not some fat guy.
Who the ->-bleeped-<- has been giving you your numbers sweety? You find a trans specialist, and see then like once a month. I'm every 6 weeks @ $150 a session. after 6 months start HRT and at two years you get the letter.
@ the thead topic, you do RLE before HRT because HRT is permanent.
I think RLE before HRT is a dated and silly concept. If it were a requirement to live as a woman before starting HRT I know I would of never bothered with therapy or hormones and just lived as a miserable guy. This is especially a problem for those with bad living situations or among the bible belt, you can't just start living as a woman when you look manly with 5 o'clock shadow etc. HRT is permanent, however early changes are reversible.
Simply answer, because power crazed therapists and brainwashed trans people believe they/you should.
Quote from: El on January 25, 2012, 07:10:55 AM
I know some people arent going to like this but i agree with the policy of requiring RLE before HRT. It makes sure that the people asking for these expensive and potentially dangerous drugs are serious about transitioning. This policy also makes the transitioner deal with the realities of being trans rather than living in the magic world where hormones will instantly make you a pretty princess. On the whole its a great way of saving NHS money, making sure only people who are serious and sure about transition have access to these drugs and forcing people to accept the reality of their situation. I am currently doing my hormone free HRT and i am glad it was required of me, i dont think i would pass so well if i hadnt had to make so much effort up to this point.
You're right, I don't like it.
'Potentially dangerous'? They're arguably less dangerous than OTC paracetamol/acetaminophen, that stuff will kill your liver SO easily.
And expensive is no excuse for anything, for one, spiro and estrogen are both relatively cheap even unsubsidised, for two, give us at least the OPTION of paying for it.
What is wrong with people who insist on controlling others. LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY'RE HARMING NOONE ELSE.
If I want to medicate myself without a doctors supervision, THAT SHOULD BE MY CHOICE. And if it goes wrong, that will be my responsibility.
Quote from: Beverley on February 15, 2012, 02:17:23 AM
Yes you can. Trust me on this. I know.
Beverley
I love it when people say "trust me, I know".
Here, watch this.
You can't expect to pass as a female if you look like a man, trust me, I know.
See? Now I have just as much backing up my assertion as you do for yours.
Quote from: Beverley on February 15, 2012, 02:48:24 AM
All right - if you want to be silly about it I will rephrase it for you. Here you go...
I had to start living as a woman when you looked manly with 5 o'clock shadow etc.
Beverley
Sometimes I post in anger and don't put enough thought into it.
I apologize for having a mocking tone in that post.
You can start living as a woman whenever you want, but I feel if passing is important to you, most people will have a VERY hard time doing it without HRT, and AA's should be started ASAP.
QuoteQuote from: Asfsd4214 on Today at 03:55:31 am
You can start living as a woman whenever you want, but I feel if passing is important to you, most people will have a VERY hard time doing it without HRT, and AA's should be started ASAP.
QuoteQuote from: Beverley
True enough, it was very hard and I did get read a lot, but I soon learned very quickly how to pass better. I also learned that I wanted the transition badly enough to put up with having to live that way until things got better.
Me too
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 15, 2012, 02:42:27 AM
I love it when people say "trust me, I know".
You know how "We know"? Because we actually DID IT and not just guess at the outcome.
I KNOW you can live passing as a female without HRT because I have done it. Did you ever even give it a real attempt? Or did you assume the outcome based on your own fears?
I fail to see how " I did it " mean everyone can or should do it.
Quote from: HavenIf it were a requirement to live as a woman before starting HRT I know I would of never bothered with therapy or hormones and just lived as a miserable guy.
Quote from: BeverleyI said that I did it and, for me, it simply proved to me how much I needed to transition.
And therein is the issue. Haven is young and has no idea what it was like when we were her age and no concept at all of what it was like when the early pioneers like Christine Jorgensen blazed the trail where none had previously existed.
The quote from Haven basically says "If you're going to make it difficult for me then I won't bother"
It takes a lot more determination than that to achieve peace as a transwoman - it's NOT any easy path
(EDIT) and there is also THIS
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,115623.0.html
Quote from: BeverleyBear in mid Steffi that I am a typical 'late transitioner'. I am 49. That is ME in the avatar.
.....and you're a mere slip of a kid........I'm 57 and that is me in my avatar ;D
I transitioned at 53
Although my ginger haired father was bald by age 30 and my face etc is mostly his, I had a fine head of hair apart from that my hairline was a very pronounced M-shape. In later years people often thought that my temples were receding but no, it has always been like that.
I've had hair this length since I was 13 - grew up in the 60's, then was a hippy-type and a rock guitarist.
With HRT, the M shape did lessen just a little ........ I have an acre of forehead so always wear the fringe and hate windy weather which blows it off my face.
Oh..... I have perms and sleep in curlers a couple of times a week to keep the body in it - straight flat hair does not suit me IMO
Quote from: Steffi on February 15, 2012, 04:50:56 PM
The quote from Haven basically says "If you're going to make it difficult for me then I won't bother"
It takes a lot more determination than that to achieve peace as a transwoman - it's NOT any easy path
I have to wonder if much of this preoccupation with passing/stealth etc is people who expect this to be simple. I also wonder how many of these "voices of authority" on these issues have any personal experience?
I by no stretch said if it's not going to be easy I won't do it, nothing about this has been easy and it is only going to get harder. I'm merely stating, the way things are these days and it being much easier to get on hormones with less restrictions theres no reason to force yourself to go fulltime before your ready and still be able to get on hormones. For those of you who went full time right away, before they got laser or anything else thats good for you. I realize some people just want to go full time as soon as they can because they can't handle it it anymore but thats not to say real life experience should be required before hormone treatment is allowed. Also if your going to misinterpret my message that much, just don't bother quoting me. Skip it and move on.
Quote from: Stephe on February 15, 2012, 11:47:56 PM
I have to wonder if much of this preoccupation with passing/stealth etc is people who expect this to be simple. I also wonder how many of these "voices of authority" on these issues have any personal experience?
[/quote
I certainly don't expect it to be easy but I also don't want it to be any harder or painful than it has to be. I also think (,my opinion on my situation) that if i stay on HRT for a while and have feminized a lot, it will be easier on everyone once I make my intentions known.
Quote from: Haven on February 16, 2012, 02:26:21 AM
I by no stretch said if it's not going to be easy I won't do it, nothing about this has been easy and it is only going to get harder. I'm merely stating, the way things are these days and it being much easier to get on hormones with less restrictions theres no reason to force yourself to go fulltime before your ready and still be able to get on hormones. For those of you who went full time right away, before they got laser or anything else thats good for you.
If I had taken this path, I'd likely never transition given all the problems I have had with HRT... Appearance IMHO is the EASIEST part of becoming a woman and being accepted as one.
Quote from: Stephe on February 16, 2012, 09:12:39 PM
If I had taken this path, I'd likely never transition given all the problems I have had with HRT... Appearance IMHO is the EASIEST part of becoming a woman and being accepted as one.
The classic question... is tolerance acceptance? And is acceptance a knowing acceptance.
QuoteQuote from: Asfsd4214 on Today at 06:12:02 am
The classic question... is tolerance acceptance? And is acceptance a knowing acceptance.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does it matter? Either you are accepted or you are not. The motives of the person doing the 'accepting' are a matter for them alone, not for me. I have a life to get on with.
Beverley
I should have transitioned at 24 ....... but I had met a couple of transsexuals by then and didn't want to be one. I wanted to be a woman,a REAL woman and nothing less was acceptable, especially as I was 6 foot and would never pass.
It took another 30 years for me to get to the point where I was driven to transition anyway.
I live life on the assumption that everyone reads me. I present as female to the best of my ability and it's not an act, it's just who I am.
Apart from an occasional transphobic lout shouting insults, people treat me 100% as female and women seem to accept me.
Occasionally, guys have hit on me and definitely not realised, despite my height etc etc.
Have people Read me? Are they Accepting me or are they Tolerating me?
I no longer care or even wonder about it. I am simply ME and you can like or dislike me as you choose.
It's all in ones own mind. If I had this attitude to begin with, I wouldn't have wasted 30 years.
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 09:32:58 AM
I should have transitioned at 24 ....... but I had met a couple of transsexuals by then and didn't want to be one. I wanted to be a woman,a REAL woman and nothing less was acceptable, especially as I was 6 foot and would never pass.
It took another 30 years for me to get to the point where I was driven to transition anyway.
I live life on the assumption that everyone reads me. I present as female to the best of my ability and it's not an act, it's just who I am.
Apart from an occasional transphobic lout shouting insults, people treat me 100% as female and women seem to accept me.
Occasionally, guys have hit on me and definitely not realised, despite my height etc etc.
Have people Read me? Are they Accepting me or are they Tolerating me?
I no longer care or even wonder about it. I am simply ME and you can like or dislike me as you choose.
It's all in ones own mind. If I had this attitude to begin with, I wouldn't have wasted 30 years.
Plenty of women are 6 ft, I have cousins who are about 6 ft.
When you get right down to it, everything is in our own minds. We are each a whole world and reality unto ourselves. None of us get to see reality, just our personal reality.
At the same time, we can't force ourselves to feel what we don't. To some of us, the knowledge that we pass is how we survive. And by pass, I mean that people do not know we are transgender. Not after 3 hours of make up and wigs and stuff, but immediately. The same way 99.9% of cisgendered women get read as what they are.
If you have your own philosophies, coping mechanisms, or definitions of how you want your life to be, in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that. Please don't get mad at me for using the term 'coping mechanisms', it was just an example.
I hate terminology arguments. Nobody wins an argument over what a particular term means or doesn't mean. You just have someone who gives up arguing before the other does. No conclusions can be reached because it's all subjective.
I personally am uninterested in arguing about what words like 'passing', 'reading', etc, should or shouldn't mean.
What I do think needs to be discussed, because it can fill people with false hope. Is how our society by and large thinks and perceives each other. By passing I mean being seen as your gender of identification with virtually nobody ever knowing any different without being told.
In that regard, I think this whole concept of passing being just a matter, of even at all a matter, of your personal attitude, completely false.
A LOT of women are self conscious. I am self conscious. I don't know of anyone, or any situation, where being self conscious, how you walk, mannerisms, etc, has made any difference to how people see their gender.
I think a large population of the transgender community that likes to think that passing, as I defined it previously, is highly dependent on those factors like attitude, because that is something they have a far higher degree of control over than physical appearance.
If this helps them feel comfortable in themselves, that's great. We all have to find our own way of surviving in our lives or we will cease to live. But when they seek to spread that viewpoint to other transgender people. Filling them with what I see as false hope and inaccurate information. I will provide my counter viewpoint as well.
Quote from: Beverley on February 17, 2012, 05:51:57 AM
Why does it matter? Either you are accepted or you are not. The motives of the person doing the 'accepting' are a matter for them alone, not for me. I have a life to get on with.
Beverley
And that works for you, nothing wrong with that.
I don't want to be humored by people. I don't want people to pretend they like me when they really don't. I believe in the truth, or as close as we can get to it in our subjective perception. I want to know the truth, even if it kills me.
Quote from: Beverley on February 17, 2012, 10:54:00 AM
Thank you.
I find this philosophy terribly bleak and if I subscribed to it then I would probably hurl myself under the next truck that passes me. It saddens me that for you that it has to be so all or nothing. I feel that you might never know peace or happiness because of it.
Beverley
I might well never know peace. But I can't force myself to be ok with the idea people can read me as transgender.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 10:14:28 AM
And that works for you, nothing wrong with that.
I don't want to be humored by people. I don't want people to pretend they like me when they really don't. I believe in the truth, or as close as we can get to it in our subjective perception. I want to know the truth, even if it kills me.
So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked..
I notice you and a few others here seem to obsess on every possible negative aspect of life. You assume the worst of everyone around you and also assume other people wake up every morning with their days focus being clocking TG people. Here's a fact you seem to miss, other people are too focused on themselves to pay ANY attention to you unless you stand out like a sore thumb. I understand you are extremely self conscious, that doesn't mean other people are this conscious of you. You just aren't that important and neither am I.
What you don't seem to grasp about this is being extremely self conscious and grossly wrong mannerisms etc is it makes ANYONE stand out like a sore thumb, which then makes people notice you. Of course if you choose to make yourself a focal point everywhere you go by acting strangely, you better pass visually 100%. It's no different than if you went skipping and dancing through the mall wearing a bathrobe.
Like Bev said, this attitude you, happy girl and a few others here have will preclude you from ever being happy. And I feel your goal is to spread this self loathing and negativity to others.. You may call this negativity "accurate information" when in fact it's just your own negativity trying to drag others into this dark place you have put yourself. Thank God I learned to have a more positive attitude.
Making the goal impossible to reach seems to be a way some people deal with their GID and resigning themselves from being able to do anything. Been there done that as have many others here. Many are still in that place. I only wish I had had a more positive attitude about all of this 20+ year earlier.
You totally misread my post, which was intended to support Beverley's viewpoint.
I am NOT saying "If you think you Pass and are always thought to be a born female, then that is how everyone will see you" That would be simply delusional, is bullsh1t and not to be promoted.
I said
QuoteHave people Read me? Are they Accepting me or are they Tolerating me?
I no longer care or even wonder about it. I am simply ME and you can like or dislike me as you choose.
It's all in ones own mind. If I had this attitude to begin with, I wouldn't have wasted 30 years.
Many people are understandably in the mindset I was in 30 years ago - wanting to totally Pass and nothing less is acceptable.
I have eventually come to accept that the only chance to get what I truly want - to be born female - passed when sperm met egg.
I NO LONGER CARE what people think I am. I live and present as female and consequently am treated as such in my daily life - whether other people realise the truth or not is irrelevant.
Yes, I would have FFS tomorrow if I could afford it ....... but it doesn't matter, I don't sit fretting about it because I am content to be ME.
In the final analysis, happiness and contentment is an internal construct.
A transwoman could transition, have SRS and Pass perfectly and still be unhappy, yearning that she cannot have children and for the missing years of girlhood from birth. Our situation can never be made perfect.
The way to peace is to do the best you can and then be content to be who you are.
Confidence in who you are and how you present yourself IS very important in gaining acceptance in the outside world.
I am NOT supporting delusion..... nor under any, not at all.
But the truth is that once you stop giving a flying fk what anyone else thinks of you, then you are at peace and if you present confidently as female then life is perfectly ok.
Quote from: Asfsd4214we can't force ourselves to feel what we don't. To some of us, the knowledge that we pass is how we survive. And by pass, I mean that people do not know we are transgender
Then I hope that you are a perfect pass and can live with the deficiencies that will still remain, because otherwise you have a lot of pain ahead of you.
As Beverley remarks above, you may never find peace or happiness.
QuoteI might well never know peace. But I can't force myself to be ok with the idea people can read me as transgender.
Then I am truly sad for you. I've been there and that is what stopped me transitioning and gave me a lifetime of torment.
I no longer give a damn, live and am treated as female and so am happy. 8)
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 11:22:45 AM
I might well never know peace.
I pray that one day you find a path to peace and happiness. Your current path will never take anyone there.
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
I am NOT saying "If you think you Pass and are always thought to be a born female, then that is how everyone will see you" That would be simply delusional, is bullsh1t and not to be promoted.
And I don't think any of us are saying this either :) You all know you can't walk around with a heavy 5 oclock shadow plainly showing etc and you will pass just because of attitude. That IS delusional.
What I am saying and have said: if you look -reasonable- AND have a good attitude, act like a woman etc, you can get away with being 95% of "perfectly 100% visually passable". Going from 95% to 100% visually is a nightmare for most people and I've found it just isn't needed to be happy -and- be accepted.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 11:28:43 AM
So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked..
And yet, it doesn't.
How do I know? Cause I dress gender neutral, be myself and see how people react.
Also, on a separate note. You have said before how people have no right to make comments, or even have opinions about your personal life because they don't know you. And yet, you just assumed my concern about it gets me misgendered.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 11:28:43 AM
I notice you and a few others here seem to obsess on every possible negative aspect of life. You assume the worst of everyone around you and also assume other people wake up every morning with their days focus being clocking TG people. Here's a fact you seem to miss, other people are too focused on themselves to pay ANY attention to you unless you stand out like a sore thumb. I understand you are extremely self conscious, that doesn't mean other people are this conscious of you. You just aren't that important and neither am I.
What you don't seem to grasp about this is being extremely self conscious and grossly wrong mannerisms etc is it makes ANYONE stand out like a sore thumb, which then makes people notice you. Of course if you choose to make yourself a focal point everywhere you go by acting strangely, you better pass visually 100%. It's no different than if you went skipping and dancing through the mall wearing a bathrobe.
Ah but that's the point. I feel it IS about passing visually 100%. If being noticed gets you read, I don't consider that to be passing. Again, not that my disclaimers matter one bit. This is how *I* define passing.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 11:28:43 AM
Like Bev said, this attitude you, happy girl and a few others here have will preclude you from ever being happy. And I feel your goal is to spread this self loathing and negativity to others.. You may call this negativity "accurate information" when in fact it's just your own negativity trying to drag others into this dark place you have put yourself. Thank God I learned to have a more positive attitude.
Making the goal impossible to reach seems to be a way some people deal with their GID and resigning themselves from being able to do anything. Been there done that as have many others here. Many are still in that place. I only wish I had had a more positive attitude about all of this 20+ year earlier.
Except it's not impossible to reach. Many trans people DO pass completely. However some people simply aren't biologically capable of getting there. Bad genetics, waited too long to start, whatever the reason.
You can think I make the bar impossible to achieve, that I try to drag others down into my pit of hopelessness or whatever. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
I am entitled to think you use your blind positivity and unreasonable expectations of passing ability as a way to cope with the fact you don't physically pass as well as you would like.
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 11:29:27 AM
But the truth is that once you stop giving a flying fk what anyone else thinks of you, then you are at peace and if you present confidently as female then life is perfectly ok.
An enviable quality. One I do not share. But I'm glad it works for you. All the more power to you.
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 11:29:27 AMThen I am truly sad for you. I've been there and that is what stopped me transitioning and gave me a lifetime of torment.
I've already transitioned. Things are better for me now than they've ever been in my life.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 11:39:58 AM
And I don't think any of us are saying this either :) You all know you can't walk around with a heavy 5 oclock shadow plainly showing etc and you will pass just because of attitude. That IS delusional.
What I am saying and have said: if you look -reasonable- AND have a good attitude, act like a woman etc, you can get away with being 95% of "perfectly 100% visually passable". Going from 95% to 100% visually is a nightmare for most people and I've found it just isn't needed to be happy -and- be accepted.
What I am saying is that if your goal is to pass visually/audibly 100%, which is how I define passing, then attitude won't help anything.
We would ALL like to Pass 100%
Actually, we would all like to be born women, not transsexuals.
If I could be Stealth, I would - I simply accept my real circumstances.
Those of us who are over tall, masculinsised etc etc have more of a problem than those who are small and androgynous - our remarks are usually aimed for those who are struggling.
QuoteWhat I am saying is that if your goal is to pass visually/audibly 100%, which is how I define passing, then attitude won't help anything.
What we are saying is that unless one is utterly incongruous in role, then a confident attitude will get you treated as female and accepted as female a lot more. It is in fact crucial to those who are not a great Pass.
I don't know whether my attitudes are "a coping mechanism" or a simple realistic acceptance of what is possible, nor care much as long as it works for me. :)
I own my words. I post with my own picture as my avatar because I have nothing to hide. I know I am trans, assume that everyone else knows too as soon as we meet and I don't care.
I am curious though as to why you are still on trans forums? I can understand not posting your picture if you're Stealth, but why are you even here? If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl? I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just puzzled.
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
We would ALL like to Pass 100%
Actually, we would all like to be born women, not transsexuals.
If I could be Stealth, I would - I simply accept my real circumstances.
Those of us who are over tall, masculinsised etc etc have more of a problem than those who are small and androgynous - our remarks are usually aimed for those who are struggling. What we are saying is that unless one is utterly incongruous in role, then a confident attitude will get you treated as female and accepted as female a lot more. It is in fact crucial to those who are not a great Pass.
I don't know whether my attitudes are "a coping mechanism" or a simple realistic acceptance of what is possible, nor care much as long as it works for me. :)
I own my words. I post with my own picture as my avatar because I have nothing to hide. I know I am trans, assume that everyone else knows too as soon as we meet and I don't care.
I am curious though as to why you are still on trans forums? I can understand not posting your picture if you're Stealth, but why are you even here? If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl? I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just puzzled.
That's actually a really good question, one I wish I had a better answer too.
I'm not in any way involved in real life with any trans groups or trans activism, or any other trans forums apart from susans.
I guess I came to susans quite a while ago now and just never left. I've thought about leaving more than a few times. More so because of my disputes with the policies of this forum. But I try not to get myself banned so there must be something that keeps me coming back.
I like being able to help and give what I try to keep as informed advise as possible to people just starting out. I think there's a shocking number of myths in the trans community. Regarding the safety of HRT, what you can expect both positively and negatively (e.g. I do think HRT probably has a marginal but potential effect on voice, and more so a good effect on facial hair provided you're under about 23ish when you start, again depending on genetics).
Another explanation I can think of. I'm a very very bad patient. I question too much, I know more than doctors expect patients to know and would rather not have to debate about with them. I lie to doctors because I know how the system works and how to manipulate it to get what I want. I've been screwed over by psychiatrists many times and seen others screwed over. I've seen doctors give bad and conflicting advice. And yet susans is a place that advocates absolute obedience to doctors. When I get the chance, I like to give people the facts I know and conclusions I have come to and how I came to them, hopefully to help them make an informed decision regarding their bodies and their health. I want people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. And if I can help, as impartially as I can, and as best I can without getting myself banned, I like too.
Plus it's a good way to pass time when I'm bored. ;D
@ Asfsd4214
;D OK then
Likewise...... I've been thru the entire journey and decades of going thru ALL the stages of self-hatred, denial, struggling etc before finally finding peace very late in life.
I long ago passed the point where I was answering questions rather than asking them.
I'm appalled at some of the delusions and false information and try and give realistic and accurate answers.
I feel that I have given back, on this and other forums, far more than I ever took.
I'm getting tired now of the never ending bickering, pedantry etc of forums and have been thinking for some time that frequent daily immersion in all-things-trans is probably becoming a negative influence on my own life.
As this year progresses, I intend to stop moderating elsewhere, take a step or two away from trans and just drop into forums occasionally.
I just asked the question above because I wondered why you hadn't, especially as you're a better Pass.
Thank you for answering :)
Quote from: Steffi on February 17, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
If you Pass perfectly, why are you not gone and living the life of the average girl?
What I don't get is they say "I might well never know peace." yet they say they have reached their goal of 100% passing? They ask us not to be sad for them but clearly they aren't happy from this quote.
I am very at peace with myself and very happy. I'm not sure why anyone would want to believe in their negative viewpoint, if when at the end (and you "pass perfectly") you still are not at peace with yourself.
"So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked.."
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 11:50:20 AM
And yet, it doesn't.
How do I know? Cause I dress gender neutral, be myself and see how people react.
So how do you KNOW they aren't just humoring you? You can't possibly know what everyone is thinking.
And I'm glad that for the most part, I don't really care what they think. They treat me as a woman and that's really all I care about. If someone doesn't, that's when I have a problem.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 01:31:50 PM
"So what are you going to do ask everyone you see "Are you humoring me or do you really think I am female"? Just the fact you would wonder this is enough to get constantly clocked.."
So how do you KNOW they aren't just humoring you? You can't possibly know what everyone is thinking.
And I'm glad that for the most part, I don't really care what they think. They treat me as a woman and that's really all I care about. If someone doesn't, that's when I have a problem.
If I don't present any other overt cues, and they read me as female, how would they even know to humor me? If you wear a dress, have a purse, act stereotypical female, then it's very obvious you're trying to be read as female, and most people will go along with it. If you are just a regular chick enjoying the freedoms of sexual equality by dressing casually and neutral, and just acting how you act, then the only way they could know what to gender you as is by your physical appearance.
Is it 100% certain from that that they read you as cis of your identified gender? Of course not. But it's far faaaar more of an accurate indication than going for broke.
Quote from: Stephe on February 17, 2012, 01:25:45 PM
What I don't get is they say "I might well never know peace." yet they say they have reached their goal of 100% passing? They ask us not to be sad for them but clearly they aren't happy from this quote.
I am very at peace with myself and very happy. I'm not sure why anyone would want to believe in their negative viewpoint, if when at the end (and you "pass perfectly") you still are not at peace with yourself.
"I will never be happy if I don't achieve x" does not mean "I will be happy if I do achieve x".
That's a logical fallacy.
I won't likely ever know peace because I have a lot of demons haunting me. The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that.
My screwed up abusive/traumatic past is also a major source of inner turmoil for me. Nothing will repair that except perhaps time.
My low self-esteem, depression, anxiety, stepping from much of the above, is also a reason it may be a very long time before I'm at peace, if ever.
Not to sound overly dramatic, as I said, my life is far better now than its ever been before. I have a great boyfriend, I finally got away from my parent, living with each other was slowly killing both of us. We even have a better relationship now provided we don't talk about the past.
But better is not the same as being ok, at peace, content... happy.
Quote from: JessicaH on September 09, 2011, 03:15:38 PM
I just curious and wish to understand others here so please don't think I am judging what you have decided is best for you. I do see a common thread on the board that involves really unhappy people or people enduring incredible hardship and ostricism which because (In my humble best guess) they rush the Social Transition and have little chance of passing.
I just wanted to reply to the original poster, JessicaH, as I had pretty much that experience. I started living full time over a year before I was able to start HRT (I even changed my gender marker at the DMV prior to HRT). It took me about two years since I sought therapy for me to finally be able to get on estrogen, and that was already after initially waiting a year (effectively putting my transition on hold) because I was not yet emotionally ready to go through a break up yet. The uber-gatekeeper therapist who finally approved me for HRT was actually the
fifth therapist I had gone to, and part of the problem was that I moved to start grad school and I had to begin the whole therapy process anew. I tried to get hormones from a clinic that prescribes to transsexuals, but I had to be a resident of the city and county, and I wasn't. And because moving expenses and electrolysis used up all my spending money, I had to delay therapy, and thus HRT as well. But it was the right time in my life to start living full time when I moved to go to the new university. I didn't want people to meet me and get to know me "as a guy" and then in my second year at the university suddenly switch genders on them. And when I moved, I had no idea it was going to take so long to get on hormones. Also, I had significant passing ability without hormones. I had already been living for two years rather androgynously, and had been speaking with a feminine-sounding voice for most of that time. So I already had quite a bit of experience prior to starting living full time of people ma'aming me or asking me if I was male or female. My main impediment to passing was my facial hair, and so electrolysis was a higher priority than HRT (I didn't have much money and so I had to choose between regular therapy or regular electrolysis). And then when I started living full time, I ran out of money and couldn't even continue the electrolysis for a while, which was a really dreadful, stressful, humiliating experience. There were quite a few occasions that first year I knew I definitely was not passable for that reason. I really wish I had had made more progress on clearing my face prior to starting HRT. I know that having to live female and not always pass was at times very difficult for me. But things had improved significantly after a few months. Then what happened was within four or five months into HRT, I was essentially stealth. And since I had begun dating, I suddenly had to face the dilemma of disclosure, because my status was definitely not something that was readily apparent.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 03:10:09 PM
If I don't present any other overt cues, and they read me as female, how would they even know to humor me? If you wear a dress....
I almost never wear a dress and sometimes have left my purse in my car etc and still get ma'amed too. But in my case you would claim they are just humoring me.
What I'm saying is how do you know people don't read you and aren't just humoring -you-? Maybe some see 95% female but can still tell you used to be a guy and are being nice. Why spend your life focusing on something you can never know or have any control over? If I am being treated with respect and being treated as just another woman, I could really care less if they can also tell I am trans.
You have said to others here "People are likely just humoring you" when you have NO IDEA what other people are thinking in other people's life or your own. You can only assume. Why do you always assume and seem to cherish the most negative possible outcome? And instead of looking at someone and thinking "They look pretty and in most cases would pass", you focus on some minutia that only a doctor or an obsessed transperson would likely notice as; a dead give away.
You also assume that ALL people see transwomen as different than "real women" or all people feel that transwomen are some kind of freak show. That's yet another example of overtly negative attitude about other people's thoughts and you assume everyone is a narrow minded bigot.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 03:10:09 PM
I won't likely ever know peace because I have a lot of demons haunting me. The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that.
And that is a negative reality of your own creation. Don't assume -your- negative reality is actually real. I know it's not. You can continue to hide from being trans and be ashamed of it, which you clearly are. And this attitude will also end up with you being miserable with your non-perfect self and as you said, you have already decided that nothing can change this.
Maybe instead of arguing that your CHOICE to be miserable is the best path, listen to people who are at peace with themselves and are happy. People like myself and others here who accept we are trans and it's not a barricade to happiness. I don't advertize it nor am I wanting to be clocked but I also know if I am, so what. Requiring to be perfectly stealth is a hell of your own creation.
Quote from: StepheIf I am being treated with respect and being treated as just another woman, I could really care less if they can also tell I am trans. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ People like myself and others here who accept we are trans and it's not a barricade to happiness. I don't advertize it nor am I wanting to be clocked but I also know if I am, so what. Requiring to be perfectly stealth is a hell of your own creation.
Exactly!
- though the mind is a strange thing. We all have to find our own way to this state of peace.
(....and my signature is no accident ;))
I have returned to post again in this thread because a way to put the concept across better has just occured to me.
There are some women who are feted for their beauty; both men and women agree that they look fabulous.
But most girls don't look like that. They are quite pretty, but fairly plain-Jane's in comparison.
Would those girls like to look like the feted beauties? Very probably - and furthermore the media is always pushing those standards in their face too!
But they don't look like that and they know it, especially the girls who are well below average prettiness for whatever reason.
They HAVE to come to terms with that, each and every girl out there ....... and they do.
They don't walk around thinking they are not beautiful enough or wondering whether people are looking at them and thinking "She's not as pretty as Cheryl Cole" or whoever.
They might look at these other women and think in passing "I wish I had her skin" or whatever but that's it, a fleeting thought.
They come to terms with who they are, learn to make the best of what they have and simply get on with their lives.
- What other choice is there anyway?
WE have reached the same point. We are happy enough with who we are.
QuoteI've reported your post to the moderator
Good luck with that, because I don't see ANYTHING wrong with the post in question, nor any of her other posts here. *shrugs*
The choice of the word "Choose" was possibly unwise as it's open to misinterpretation - IMO it was clearly used in a context which was intended to say "this is a mental problem, not a physical one"
We're not deluded and assuming no-one reads us as trans - we simply don't give a damn. (...as long as they're not stomping on our face)
Once you can reach that inner balance, you have peace.
I am not dissing you - I do understand your pain because I HAVE lived it myself, believe me I have.
I cannot tell you how to quickly get to the happy state of mind - If I could, I would. I have in fact been trying to. But it is something you have to work out and find for yourself because there is no other way. The trans people I met 30 years ago told me this then, but it took me all this time to get there.
You DO need to overcome your inner non-acceptance of yourself as trans ...... and just be happy to be you. Once you manage that, you won't even be asking yourself whether people have read you or not.
I hope that you find peace of mind for yourself soon. :)
Quote from: Steffi on February 18, 2012, 01:51:01 PM
Good luck with that, because I don't see ANYTHING wrong with the post in question, nor any of her other posts here. *shrugs*
The choice of the word "Choose" was possibly unwise as it's open to misinterpretation - IMO it was clearly used in a context which was intended to say "this is a mental problem, not a physical one"
I have no ill will towards any other poster here, just Stephe because of her attitude. Everyone else has been civil and hasn't tried to strawman my replys.
In the context you say it say it's in, it's no better.
As I said, it's like calling gay a mental choice.
The rules stipulate...
Quote15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.
I think it can reasonably construed as a personal attack.
If I said "Just because you CHOOSE to be transgender doesn't mean it's not your own sexual perversions". Aimed at you personally. Would you not consider it a personal attack?
Several years ago I got fed up with playing the male role so I let my hair grow, changed clothing, and told family, coworkers, and friends that I have always been a she, and asked them to call me "Peky." After a few years living as a woman my personal doctor suggested -and accepted- to go in spiro. After a year or so I saw a psychiatrist for one session. The psychiatrist sent me to an endo who put in me in E. Now I am thinking having SRS next year.
I never wonder about the "passing issue" as it was never my goal; my goal was just to live happy by be myself.
I have read many of the post in this thread, and it seems that everybody had taken a different path dictated by their unique situation.
Peky
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 18, 2012, 02:46:16 PM
If I said "Just because you CHOOSE to be transgender doesn't mean it's not your own sexual perversions". Aimed at you personally. Would you not consider it a personal attack?
Sure it might be but what I said was -you are choosing to be miserable over the fact you were born transgendered-. You can't change being transgendered. But you can change how you feel about the fact that you are transgendered, huge difference.
You said "The very fact I am trans, no matter how well I pass, will continue to haunt me. Nothing will ever change that"
Being 'haunted' over being trans is a hell of your own creation. You say -nothing can change this- when in fact YOU have the ability to change this if you wanted to. For what ever reason you choose not to. I have changed from years ago hating that I am trans and being ashamed of it to learning to accept and in some ways I now embrace it. Others have posted they have too. If you would stop lashing out from this position of misery for a minute you would see we are TRYING to help you.
Well said above Stephe. (.... and I understood what you were trying to say and the intent in the line that was found offensive)
@ Asfsd4214 After Stephe's post there is no need for me to respond to your last question.
QuoteYOU have the ability to change this if you wanted to. For what ever reason you choose not to. I have changed from years ago hating that I am trans and being ashamed of it to learning to accept and in some ways I now embrace it.
Me too.
I'm bored with this thread now - I've given what help I can, to the point of repeating myself in different ways.
As my last word here, take a look at this thread where a BORN WOMAN says
QuoteEnvy of female delicacy is something I understand very well even as a cisgendered girl. I can never ever wear heels because I am a hulking 5 11 girl. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I envy envy envy so much those petite girls around 5 7 who seem to have miraculously been born with flat stomachs and thin body.
I have issues with an enlarged mons pubis. I'm serious when I tell you that if you reached down the front of my pants my mons pubis is probably bigger than any penis you will ever find. So I can't wear tight fitted skirts or pants that ride up because I have a camel toe that looks like I decided to stop giving birth and throw on a pair of stretch pants.
I envy envy envy those Playboy type gals that are fit and tiny and sexy. I have been called a ->-bleeped-<- many times. I've also had people just flat out call me sir on several occasions. And I'm cis.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,115632.msg887997.html#msg887997 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,115632.msg887997.html#msg887997)
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