With this, my 1000th post, I bid y'all adieu. Well some at least, because I know where those in the exodus have gone to and I have a fair number of friends over there that had originally been made here. I'm not going to mince words like I know that Val did when she posted her exit speech a few days ago...
This was a site I had stumbled on a few months back while looking for something completely unrelated to transsexuality. Given the number of years I had functioned in the real world as a former transsexual, I felt there might be elements of that experience that some would find of use. And I know that SOME have found it useful. Others, however, elected to take those experiences and claim that it was further indicia of post-operative elitism and a host of other criticisms that were hurled my direction. I was also taken to task repeatedly because I don't agree with the attempts to redefine what a woman is and I don't agree with the steps some are taking that WILL have the net effect of "othering" the newer transsexuals and that pose a real risk of negating the changes some of us have had in place for decades.
There was also a growing sense of frustration with the manner in which some of us who were post-operative had found our voices being squelched (and in the case of one poster, silenced entirely). We have a history that some would seemingly choose to erase in the name of political correctness. My guess is that, as some here eventually get their surgery, they will grasp why so many of those of us who were formerly transsexual feel as strongly about some of these issues as we do. Some may even come to understand why some of us subscribe to and will do whatever we can to uphold a binary construct and move on with a normal everyday life in society. Those will be the people who can avoid looking at opinions such as those I have proffered without claiming that they were hateful or bigoted or any other wholly incorrect claim that certain posters on this site were allowed to use with impunity and without sanction.
Those that need to find me know how to do so...
Another one leaving. Best wishes. Ta'ta.
Have a good day and a better tommorow.
~waves good bye to Ann~
Why not wait until your 2,000th post.
I'm sorry to see you leave, but that is certainly your right.
Good luck.
Couldn't resist...
http://youtu.be/bMvqPffzDMQ (http://youtu.be/bMvqPffzDMQ)
Best of luck
Like lemmings to the sea. Old posters are abandoning ship. Take care of yourself Ann.
Ann,
Every post I have read of yours I have read with great interest and respect for you. A voice of some wisdom and much rational experience. Truth is difficult for some, though not all.
Thank you for participating, at least for a while. Unlike some of the more aggressive and virulently mean spirited, I think that your perspectives of the binary societal construct are palatable and believable. Being able to debate issues without disdain and vitriol for others opinions is far more productive to convincing a winning argument. That, I feel is where you have shown best.
You will be missed.
Dawn
Best of luck Ann!
Z
When i read this topic earlier Ann had 1,000 posts, now only 995, is someone purposely playing games, if they are they are petty and childish, i thought this was a support site, everyone needs to remember who's site this is.
Paula
Paula..It is possible Ann deleted a few of her posts, maybe? I saw 1,000 posts as well.
Bye Ann, I wish you the best, hugs, Tracey
Goodbye Ann, your posts will be missed.
Randi
Take care of yourself and blessings on your future. I lived near the town with the same name you had bolded. Its a nice place.
Be safe!
Quote from: JenJen2011 on September 22, 2011, 12:22:10 PM
Paula..It is possible Ann deleted a few of her posts, maybe? I saw 1,000 posts as well.
Nope it wasn't Ann .. slowly the post ops are moving on from this site to another
Bye Ann. :(
No, Ann did not remove any posts, neither did any staff member. An entire thread was removed by the person who started it. Ann had made 5 responses in that thread.
Which thread and which member is not important.
" There was also a growing sense of frustration with the manner in which some of us who were post-operative had found our voices being squelched "
Words fail me! Several have been handing down the transsexual tablets from Mount Sinai. ........ it seemed to me was full of Transsexual thou shalts and thou shalt nots. You have not been 'squelched' people just grew tired of all the 'we post-ops are the transsexual elders and keepers of the sacred flame. Listen to us, do as we say, think as we think or you are just a pretend ->-bleeped-<-!' To be fair you might not have meant to projection this image but it is how some of you came across.
Anyone who had the courage of their convictions wouldn't slope of to another anonymous forum(only the chosen few are given the name of this new forum, so if you don't know the web address then you aren't one of the chosen few anointed by the matriarchs of the transsexual/transgender movement and can rot here as far as they are concerned.)
So Adieu to you!
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on September 22, 2011, 05:40:57 PM
(only the chosen few are given the name of this new forum, so if you don't know the web address then you aren't one of the chosen few anointed by the matriarchs of the transsexual/transgender movement and can rot here as far as they are concerned.)
There's always Google--nothing is secret online if you know how to use it. But seriously, there is no perfect utopia. Happiness is found within and, no matter where you run, you will always find misery if you are not truly happy inside.
I will play devils advocate once again...
There is no problem in the message/position that Ann and Val were taking. There was a serious problem with the delivery of that message and a conflict of egos.
There needs to be a place here on susans where they can say what they want to without being completely bitched about.
I will admit that I did report 1 of Anns posts but that was only 1 time and I really thought she could have said her peace in a more politic fashion.
Most of the time I am much happier with the back and forth and so are others.
When an argument is shut down by a third party then it leaves everyone with a bad taste in thier mouth. Moderating a thread and asking for calmer heads would work better than the private mod to usser smack downs and thread closings.
Like I said, it leaves a bad taste. People need to be able to get to the end of an argument before there can be peace.
Some of my best friends in the world have been people who I started out in a state of conflict with. But once the conflict ran its course we were able to find common ground.
We can not get to that stage around here until the cycle is allowed to complete. But we are constantly stoping that cycle for fear it may cause issues. But there in lies the rub, this is causing more issues than it is solving.
This is causeing folks to walk away. If they can not say their peace then they say screw it and move on.
Personally I will miss a few of the gals that left.
Name calling is not the proper way to communicate here.
This is a good bye thread, why not let bygones be bygones.
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on September 22, 2011, 05:40:57 PM
Anyone who had the courage of their convictions wouldn't slope of to another anonymous forum(only the chosen few are given the name of this new forum, so if you don't know the web address then you aren't one of the chosen few anointed by the matriarchs of the transsexual/transgender movement and can rot here as far as they are concerned.)
Oh please that's rediculous. If you're not happy here and decide to go to another forum it has zero to do with lack of courage. One of the posts that got deleted yesterday annoyed me. Someone asks questions and we try to help and when she doesn't get what she wants she throws a tantrum demanding the thread be locked. She did that more than once.
When I came here a few months ago it was to gain some insight to the stuff I was dealing with as an early postop. I was more than happy to help and answer some questions to help people behind me but what I see is the same thing I saw in support groups. It's always the poor me's. why we cant move forwards etc ...I couldn't attend support group because quite honestly it was a negative cesspool. If someone ASKS for help and then proceeds to tell you they cant when they get their answer, they never wanted help to begin with, they only wanted the avenue to complain. Sorry but we can only be victims if we allow ourselves to be victims
that's only one of many frustrations here.
I was afraid of coming out, I was afraid of what I had to lose, I was afraid of going out in public and yes I was afraid of the surgery. But I knew in order to be at peace within myself I needed to make those steps. I never complained about having to save $18k for my surgery. I never complained that I was being treated unfairly. I never demanded to be treated special because I couldn't attain my goals.
I see what people like Val and Ann have to offer. While I dont always agree with them I agree that they have a right to feel the way they do and share their experiences as they have exprerienced it. And if someone doesn't agree with it then they have the right to move on and not read it. But to squash their opinions because you dont agree with them is wrong. So now they are gone and I will stand in solidarity with my post op sisters and go where I feel welcome. Wanna know why we go stealth? Wanna know why pot op women stop being a part of the trans community? It's because of stuff like you've seen here recently ....
good luck to all of ya ..I'm done now too
I realize many did not agree with the sentiments of Ann and Val, for better or worse. While the general overview they had was not especially common, it is one I happen to agree with- and I'll leave it at just that. No need to violate the TOS.
Thanks for all your contributions, Ann- you've given me hope for my future, in my future (her current) profession. Your wit and intelligence truly was an asset to the forum, and will be truly be missed, by at least me. While we only chatted once, your advice proved very helpful to me- and I hope we can talk again soon elsewhere; you have touched my life for the better.
Farewell, and good luck in your future endeavors (except against me in court! >:-) )
~Jessica
I'm sorry to see you leave too, Karynm, I had hoped we could get past this and start rebuilding the community.
I think your post was good and needs to be heard and understood.
I think that we need a broad spectrum of members here at Susan's who are prepared to share their differing views amicably, but when you get a group who seem to want to lord it over other groups well.... I am not against the opinions of certain members here. I just would like them to understand that just because they are further down the road than most they shouldn't get to openly state what a transsexual is or isn't. These members are entitle to respect and understanding but when they get together and decide to flounce off to destinations unknown because people here won't or can't agree with everything they believe in then that is when I lose compassion for these members.
P.S. Just remember that age doesn't always bring wisdom nor experience valuable insight.
I say let these people go to their new spiritual home it won't be long before they are trying the more ->-bleeped-<- than thou attitude with each other and we see the deserters slowly drift back here.
I have seen this happen at another non TS forum where a group left in a huff and not long after they were back asking to be re-admitted to the fold as if nothing had happened. Some of them were astonished that they were not allowed to return to the status of moderator!
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on September 22, 2011, 07:06:33 PM
I think that we need a broad spectrum of members here at Susan's who are prepared to share their differing views amicably, but when you get a group who seem to want to lord it over other groups well.... I am not against the opinions of certain members here. I just would like them to understand that just because they are further down the road than most they shouldn't get to openly state what a transsexual is or isn't.
Seems to me that your own standards contradict themselves. In one breath you state you want a wide spectrum of opinion and you aren't against those opinions but then you state they shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions. Seems kind of hypocritical if ya ask me.
What you're really saying is that you want a group here that only agrees with your opinion and if you dont you're welcome here but you aren;t welcome to express that.
Certain individuals here strongly implied that if people didn't think exactly as they did regarding transsexuality then perhaps those dissenting individuals might be not be female after all. * What I strongly objected to was the implied accusation that if you don't think like me then you are just a ->-bleeped-<- wannabe after all I am post op now and that speaks for itself what I say transsexuality is IS the true definition.
Post ops are welcome here and they of course can express themselves but when they start smacking people down...
* I also didn't like their highly dismissive opinions regarding ->-bleeped-<-s.
Quote from: Karynm8621 on September 22, 2011, 07:53:57 PM
Seems to me that your own standards contradict themselves. In one breath you state you want a wide spectrum of opinion and you aren't against those opinions but then you state they shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions. Seems kind of hypocritical if ya ask me.
What you're really saying is that you want a group here that only agrees with your opinion and if you dont you're welcome here but you aren;t welcome to express that.
Exactly how I read the post Karyn. This type hypocrisy is part of the reason everyone has left or is leaving. Questions are asked, replies given, then offense taken because it's not what the poster wants to hear so they ask for the thread to be locked. Why bother asking the question and wasting everyones time answering if your not open to replies that may contradict what you want to hear.
Again, you're guilty of exactly what you are complaining about. They aren't conforming to your expectations and you dont like it. It makes you just as elitist as what you complain about. It's like saying its a free country unless you are gay lesbian bi or trans, then we all have to fight for inclusion. Just because YOU dont like the opinions of some doesn't mean their beliefs aren't welcome. But again, they would be welcomed as long as the agree with your system of belief
What if I felt that I was no longer transsexual because I finished my transition? Would that be considered elitist and offensive to you? Would you think that I'm looking down on you because I dont subscribe to the TG umbrella?
->-bleeped-<-s are a different thing altogether and while they somewhat deal with the same thing they aren't the same as transsexuals they are at different ends of the spectrum.
And by the way, Cisgender people view the binary in the same manner. I cannot count how many times i've heard them say that they wont view you as female unless you have surgery. In their eyes if you have a penis you do not belong in the womens locker room. Others will say that by not completing surgery that those people want the best of both worlds.
I get for some there are issues that prevent them from having surgery. My heart truly goes out to them. But please don't dilute all the hard work I did to be who I am today because I HAD to treat my incongruency with surgery and yes when you say what you're saying that's exactly what your doing, you're negating all my hard work to make myself right by making it sound like all I had to do was take a trip to the DMV and get a gemder marker change to be a woman .
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on September 22, 2011, 07:06:33 PM
I think that we need a broad spectrum of members here at Susan's who are prepared to share their differing views amicably, but when you get a group who seem to want to lord it over other groups well.... I am not against the opinions of certain members here. I just would like them to understand that just because they are further down the road than most they shouldn't get to openly state what a transsexual is or isn't. These members are entitle to respect and understanding but when they get together and decide to flounce off to destinations unknown because people here won't or can't agree with everything they believe in then that is when I lose compassion for these members.
P.S. Just remember that age doesn't always bring wisdom nor experience valuable insight.
I say let these people go to their new spiritual home it won't be long before they are trying the more ->-bleeped-<- than thou attitude with each other and we see the deserters slowly drift back here.
Why won't you let this go? It really has you wound up. It's
views like that that turn open and honest discussion into open conflict and it is totally unnecessary. If you don't like someone elses view or opinion.... SO WHAT!!! We aren't writing international trans policy here. Most of what happens here doesn't matter to anyone in any way It's a place to share information and ask for some help and maybe a shoulder to cry on.
If you disagree with someone, clearly state why you disagree and preferably offer a different viewpoint or solution. Ann was one of the most brilliant persons on this board and I honestly HATE to see her leave. Age doesn't always equate to wisdom. But...when you see large numbers of those with vastly more experience headed a different direction than the fledgelings, it may be wise to figure out why. Not react, but really wonder why!
Good bye Ann, I will really interacting with you here....
Oh dear, do I really want to mix myself in all this?
Quote from: Karynm8621 on September 22, 2011, 08:43:55 PM
... you're negating all my hard work to make myself right by making it sound like all I had to do was take a trip to the DMV and get a gemder marker change to be a woman.
Yes, that is my belief, however the bit with the DMV is optional.
I believe anybody that universally, consistently and emphatically declares themselves to be a women is one.
That bit about "negating all your hard work" sounds like heterosexual people not wanting same-sex marriage because it will invalidate their marriages.
Ann, You have contributed so much to this forum. Thank you for sharing of yourself.
You have been a joy to get to know, I only hope we can stay in touch.
I will be joining you soon in moving on.
Hugs!
Kristi
If a person has a concern or issue with something that is going on anywhere on this site please take it to a moderator or an administrator so it can be dealt with quietly and efficiently. Moderators are the only people who enforce the TOS on this site. Please don;t try to take this task upon yourselves. Public conflict over personal concerns does not further the mission of this site which is, if I may, to support ALL people who violate social gender norms.
This thread is getting very close to being locked because of the personal acrimony it has generated. Please, everyone, remember that kindness and tolerance is expected here.
I hope this warning is sufficient.
I feel that because I am not attracted to men nor for several personal reasons am I enthralled with surgery. I feel looked down upon here yet I remain here and try and put my views across.
Quote from: Emelye on September 22, 2011, 09:04:16 PM
If a person has a concern or issue with something that is going on anywhere on this site please take it to a moderator or an administrator so it can be dealt with quietly and efficiently. Moderators are the only people who enforce the TOS on this site. Please don;t try to take this task upon yourselves. Public conflict over personal concerns does not further the mission of this site which is, if I may, to support ALL people who violate social gender norms.
This thread is getting very close to being locked because of the personal acrimony it has generated. Please, everyone, remember that kindness and tolerance is expected here.
I hope this warning is sufficient.
No worries it's my last post on this board... see ya
Sad to see when people have a difference of opinion, they leave.
Both sides of the fence has made some valid and worthwhile points, but Ill be completely honest here: leaving like this in a group exodus of post ops seems a rather "immature." Sorry if that offends but it is how I see it. And other trans in my area asks me why I never attend Support Groups or Southern Comfort. Many of the posts here is the MAIN reason why. To see it on a forum is crazy enough. I have no desire to see it happen around me. I have other things to worry about.
Ill be post op soon and Ill still be hanging around. Even though my opinions may differ greatly from others, I know what makes a site great is the diversity that each one brings to the table. I will always believe that trans can be non op or whatever. Labels do not define us, we define ourselves. As soon as people stop pointing the label tag around and dictate to other people over the internet if they are "real or not" i think much of the storm will be calmer.
I do see each side's perspectives. I really do.
Some Post ops feel that they have the experience enough to voice their opinions or from life experience and it's valid.
Some Pre Ops or non ops feel like they are being "judged" because they do not fit the pegs of what some of the post ops would use to define a transsexual. And that's valid too.
I think if we can just understand and acknowledge there are differences here and be civil about it, things would be a nicer.
I will still be very happy to be part of this diverse family.
love u all. And Ann i wish you all the happiness whatever you decide to do. Blessings!
Some of the posts in this thread are immature, that much I can agree with, and I'm not talking about the post-ops leaving either.
for the record, I'm not going anywhere. I fully intend to stick around and annoy the hell out of all of you for a long time to come. :P
I have removed posts that were off topic. Please stay on topic and remember that you can all make the same point with kindness as you can with animosity.
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on September 22, 2011, 08:16:53 PM
* I also didn't like their highly dismissive opinions regarding ->-bleeped-<-s.
OPINIONS!
That is what they are! My opinion of the President I'm sure is different then most, my opinion of mexican food is different then most.
When I first came here I was fairly new too forums, I stated my opinion with my second or third post. Apparently I was bashing someone or something. I have a hard time articulating my words at times so the meanings might be different to someone else. I found it interesting that I was warned about bashing when I never was the one that started it.
I have an opinion about ->-bleeped-<-s its not a good one so I'll leave it to myself. I feel somewhat hypocritical with my opinion as I considered my self this for years. This was before I reached further into myself and realized if I want to correct my gender because of a fetish I think I have gone too far. This isn't the case since I am not a ->-bleeped-<-.
I have opinions about post ops or gg's thinking a preop is not a woman because of the plumbing. I feel this isn't right but only because I am not able to have surgery at this time. I am very binary and have a hard time viewing another prop as 100% woman because of what I still have my self. I just don't think its fair to jam it down my thought, I think many post ops have to remember what it felt like having that thing they didn't want. Did it make them feel less of a woman, yes I'm sure it does me. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be viewed as anything less then a woman.
We all have opinions for example my opinion of myself early on in a post was that I was not a gay man, I have heard others say they are not gay they like men. We all have opinions of ourselves and sometimes others. For pete's sake thier opinions not commandments or statutes!!
I also left this site for awhile but didn't feel a need to post a thread about it!
Shelly
Glad to hear YOU ARE NOT LEAVING Fairy Girl! And leave it to Annah to crack the "ANN O" Code!
SJ
Quote from: SandraJane on September 22, 2011, 10:37:55 PM
Glad to hear YOU ARE NOT LEAVING Fairy Girl! And leave it to Annah to crack the "ANN O" Code!
SJ
meh, it wasn't too hard. I cracked the Enigma machine of World War II in my prior life :P
I remember that day fondly like no other. Other than the X-ray debacle of 1864 It was the one of the most hardest puzzles I had to crack. God knows it probably was just luck because I have messed up these puzzle things time and time again.
Someone gave me good advice once at another forum. If you want to leave, just leave, anyone that makes a song and dance about leaving is just craving attention.
PoH, Hope you're not considering leaving said forum over less than controversial threads, that never seem to broaden and awaken the slumbering giant that remains teathered in
complete submission to mediocrity..
SJ
Quote from: Just Shelly on September 22, 2011, 09:40:56 PM
my opinion of mexican food is different then most.
You too?! :icon_yikes: I think Mexican food is fantastic to wear as a hat on a foggy day. What's your opinion?
I prefer to be naked on a sunny day. >:-)
When people leave it's generally because it's time to move on; the place where they are is no longer suitable to their needs so they find a more amenable arrangement. Some seem to take it as a personal affront that you won't be here to have their loving abuse heaped upon you anymore, but that is kind of a "oh it's all about me" attitude. Chances are the one who left could care less about what you think, hence the leaving.
If people want to leave and say goodbye to their friends or even make a point to explain their reasons for leaving, why is that such a big deal? Oh its easy to sit on your ostentatious high horse and make up all kinds of excuses and assumptions and assign them to others, with implications of "immaturity" and goddess only knows what else. Actually it's a very mature decision to know when to move on and get on with your life, especially if that means you know you will have to endure the pain of moving from a place you care about when conditions just become too intolerable to remain.
Godspeed to those who depart on their journey, and may they find peace wherever that journey takes them. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fsmilie%2Fliebe%2Fs045.gif&hash=de56883fd757293852d3473c0d745e12d7344b68)
I guess I don't understand. I am an 11+ year postop who realizes that, although she is a woman accepted by both those who know and those who don't know her transgender/transsexual background, she is not a biological female. Nevertheless, I am a very happy older woman.
SRS is not the be all, end all; it is one step in a journey that has many possible paths. So, whether preop, postop, or nonop for any reason, all are welcome under my umbrella. And, yes, there is room for all the men (and women) who cross dress. We all face the same slings and arrows from the Religious Wrong and the right wing politicians who pander to their owners' fears and bigotry for money and power.
What's to argue about? Let's fight for our rights together.
Robyn
.
Am I the only one who's noticed this topic was posted on the "Post-Op" Forum, yet a major argument has ensued about surgery itself?
Why are people who are opposed to the views of many post-ops even reading the Post-Op Forum?
I'll bet there are those who are sitting in their momma's basement who think they know more than those who hold University degrees, even Post-Graduate degrees.
It's not difficult for me to understand why some would put this argument up, for all they can see is the pre-op side. They can't comprehend that *all* post-ops have been on the pre-op side, as well as the post-op side. There is a very real and distinct experience that goes with surgery and it *does* change your brain. Until you've been there, you can't understand. There is a reason that many post-ops abandon the community after surgery. They've had all their TG/TS problems solved, they are different, they get tired of immature behavior, as has been demonstrated here.
I can't help but notice that you don't see post-ops creating a ruckus on the ->-bleeped-<- or Cross Dressers Forums. Even though I lived that life for decades, while in denial of my own true condition, I wouldn't do that. I am not concerned with what they think or do, as it doesn't affect me. Just as they shouldn't be concerned or affected by post-op discussion.
In the field of Psychology, there is a defense mechanism called "Projection", in which the individual "projects" their faults upon others. A person who is a self-centered cheapskate, for instance, will see others as being self-centered cheapskates. Those who are close-minded bigots will see others as close-minded bigots. If you tend to think that other people's opinions are OK, as long as they don't conflict with your own, but if they do, that person is a close-minded bigot, perhaps there is a message there.
If all the post-ops leave, who will be on hand to give advice in the future? Perhaps each forum should be left to those whose concerns it addresses.
I'm just sayin'....
The Dragonfly
Once, in a little pond, in the muddy water under the lily pads,
there lived a little water beetle in a community of water
beetles. They lived a simple and comfortable life in the pond
with few disturbances and interruptions.
Once in a while, sadness would come to the community when one of
their fellow beetles would climb the stem of a lily pad and
would never be seen again. They knew when this happened; their
friend was dead, gone forever.
Then, one day, one little water beetle felt an irresistible urge
to climb up that stem. However, he was determined that he would
not leave forever. He would come back and tell his friends what
he had found at the top.
When he reached the top and climbed out of the water onto the
surface of the lily pad, he was so tired, and the sun felt so
warm, that he decided he must take a nap. As he slept, his body
changed and when he woke up, he had turned into a beautiful
blue-tailed dragonfly with broad wings and a slender body
designed for flying.
So, fly he did! And, as he soared he saw the beauty of a whole
new world and a far superior way of life to what he had never
known existed.
Then he remembered his beetle friends and how they were thinking
by now he was dead. He wanted to go back to tell them, and
explain to them that he was now more alive than he had ever been
before. His life had been fulfilled rather than ended.
But, his new body would not go down into the water. He could
not get back to tell his friends the good news. Then he
understood that their time would come, when they, too, would
know what he now knew. So, he raised his wings and flew off
into his joyous new life!
~Author Unknown~
Sometimes all that needs to be said has already been said.
-Sandy
Quote from: Re: Joyce on September 23, 2011, 05:12:22 AM
Am I the only one who's noticed this topic was posted on the "Post-Op" Forum, yet a major argument has ensued about surgery itself?
Why are people who are opposed to the views of many post-ops even reading the Post-Op Forum?
I don't think its that at all.
Recently, there have been some discussion where non ops are not trans because they don't want the surgery. Sadly, some of those comments came from post op people. Also, there seems to be a sense of "it HAS to be the way I did it or no way." I've seen it here myself this week on several occasions.
Now, of course, I am not just blaming post ops for stating that. Ive seen others say it too, however, some post ops recently have been stating it. Disagreements arise and people are leaving.
QuoteI'll bet there are those who are sitting in their momma's basement who think they know more than those who hold University degrees, even Post-Graduate degrees.
It's not difficult for me to understand why some would put this argument up, for all they can see is the pre-op side. They can't comprehend that *all* post-ops have been on the pre-op side, as well as the post-op side. There is a very real and distinct experience that goes with surgery and it *does* change your brain. Until you've been there, you can't understand. There is a reason that many post-ops abandon the community after surgery. They've had all their TG/TS problems solved, they are different, they get tired of immature behavior, as has been demonstrated here.
I haven't seen that to be the contention of the bitterness. For
some (not everyone) post ops I have seen they have used their surgeries not as an expectation of experience but as a voice of "well i am right and you are wrong." Which is fine but when it comes to issues as delicate as telling a non op they really are not transsexual because they haven't gotten the surgery or will not get the surgery, then that is morally and ethically wrong; no matter how many vagina surgeries you have gotten. These are delicate issues and could even make a person suicidal so yeah, it pains me when anyone (not just post op people) start to define for other people who is a true transsexual.
QuoteIn the field of Psychology, there is a defense mechanism called "Projection", in which the individual "projects" their faults upon others. A person who is a self-centered cheapskate, for instance, will see others as being self-centered cheapskates. Those who are close-minded bigots will see others as close-minded bigots. If you tend to think that other people's opinions are OK, as long as they don't conflict with your own, but if they do, that person is a close-minded bigot, perhaps there is a message there.
Projection can go both ways.
QuoteIf all the post-ops leave, who will be on hand to give advice in the future? Perhaps each forum should be left to those whose concerns it addresses.
I'm just sayin'....
I will be having surgery in a month. I have no intentions on leaving. I also have no intentions on telling ANYONE who should or should not be a transsexual and I certainly will not be defining anyone's gender here by what they have between their legs. Thankfully, I will not be the only post op who will think like I do. There are many post ops who are genuinely awesome.
Annah,
You can not know how you will feel/think after your surgery, until after your surgery.
There is allot of merit in what those who have left were saying. Granted there could have been allot less snarkiness in the delivery of that message.
Quote from: cynthialee on September 23, 2011, 08:38:00 AM
Annah,
You can not know how you will feel/think after your surgery, until after your surgery.
There is allot of merit in what those who have left were saying. Granted there could have been allot less snarkiness in the delivery of that message.
When it comes to what or how I feel towards non op transsexuals or towards labels in general; trust me, that will not change after my surgery.
Yes. Things will change. My ethics will not.
Quote from: Re: Joyce on September 23, 2011, 05:12:22 AM
Am I the only one who's noticed this topic was posted on the "Post-Op" Forum, yet a major argument has ensued about surgery itself?
Why are people who are opposed to the views of many post-ops even reading the Post-Op Forum?
All members of Susan's are permitted to read and post in any public area of the Forum, regardless of how they might identify. Some people read the entire site, others read only the areas that pertain to them. The only areas of the forum that are off limits are the specific groups in Just for Us. When visiting in any area, please respect peoples' identities and post according to TOS.
Z
At the end of the day what is the name of this site? If people have an issue with those who are transgender or with the terminology itself perhaps they should take it up with the management and not with those who do not share their world view.
To be blunt there's no point coming here and putting down people for not being men or women or anything else in the same way as ourselves.
Most of us here have been on the receiving end of prejudice because of our gender, gender issues, sexual orientation, ethnic origin and even religious belief. As such let us try to show some compassion and tolerance and be careful not to do to others what has been done to ourselves. Transphobia is nasty stuff, may we never be guilty of it.
That seems an honest and fair position to all.
Quote from: cynthialee on September 23, 2011, 08:38:00 AM
Annah,
You can not know how you will feel/think after your surgery, until after your surgery.
There is allot of merit in what those who have left were saying. Granted there could have been allot less snarkiness in the delivery of that message.
A good point Cynthialee, and glad to see proper usage of "snarky". The "change" that I have seen other Post-Op's refer to is no doubt real, and that it affects some more strongly than others. Change is a at once both welcomed and rejected, is brings hope and fear, why shouldn't SRS/GRS/GCS be any different. In the past couple of weeks that this issue has raged like wildfire in this forum, and solicited emotions and introspection, and has left few of us untouched including myself.
Change is an action, a culmination of one or more other acts/actions that often join together to create an effect that can create, reshape, modify , destroy, or halt a process. A detour is also change, a pathway being closed and re-routed either temporarily or permanently, and for some it is no longer a detour but a re-routing or change in direction for their lives, etc.
As some of you may have noticed, my avatar has changed. At first I didn't have one, then an event occurred that prompted me have add the Cougar! It reflected a change in how I saw myself and wanted to be seen, now its the "Bride of Frankenstein", and even that has changed a little. At first I added the "Bride" without assigning it anymore meaning that just being funny...then it dawned on me a couple of days later that my thoughts about SRS/GRS/GCS (I like GCS/GRS instead), had changed, I was no longer afraid of it, and might not "The Bride"be a subtle clue . How did this happen? Not totally sure but the raging debates played a part, and I believe for
myself, it was a Godsend to overcome the fear of change, and it also came after I came out to my family from which I experienced a welcomed relief. Better living through Surgery? :laugh:
Likewise I ( so does Susan and many others :laugh:) feel there is a place for all of us here at this table we call "Susan's", but we are also guests at this table and there are certain rules or "Etiquette" we must abide by to remain, our choice.
Back to the change effect of Surgery, some say they were aware of it the moment they awoke from the Anesthesia, it was a feeling of being cured, so what's next? Others it is probably gradual and discovered by a small event, or like turning around while walking to see how far you have traveled or what's behind you.
So do you stay or do you go?
Quote from: SandraJane on September 23, 2011, 09:52:21 AM
So do you stay or do you go?
Sorry, couldn't resist
The Clash - Should I Stay Or Should I Go? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Gn0e7kvTA#)
Thank You MissF! Ha,ha..."I don't even know which clothes fit me!"...
SJ
Quote from: Laura91 on September 23, 2011, 10:07:31 AM
Damn right.
I will never understand why anyone that has been marginalized and ridiculed for being trans would turn around and dis someone else for their own stupid reasons.
So you are post-op? That is great for you (and I am using "you" in the general sense here) but it does not give anyone the right to turn into some elitist prick.
In my opinion the reasons lie in our society and its politics. A history of deference to the status quo, and a mistaken belief in the system of feral capitalism that oppresses us is really there to give us the opportunity to be one of them. Government will, and always has needed its 'enemies and outsiders' be they Jews, Communists or recently Muslims and it will do its best to convince us that outsiders threaten our (in reality their) way of life.
As victims of oppression and prejudice let us have the decency not to walk away and abandon the struggle.
Don't believe the hype.
> cue rousing rendition of the Internazionale ;)
Its because we're HUMAN, we have to consciously fight off this ugly monster from within.
Quote from: SandraJane on September 23, 2011, 11:37:35 AM
Its because we're HUMAN, we have to consciously fight off this ugly monster from within.
Yes. I totally agree.
However, in my opinion only, when an oppressed becomes an oppressor (in the example of how a cisgender person questions the gender of a trans and then that trans gets an operation and does the same thing to a non or pre op trans that an offender had done to them in the past regarding gender identity) then one needs to practice civility and thought when responding to or writing posts of that nature.
It's easy to fall into prejudice and malice or spite in any venue. It takes much more control to practice open mindedness and civility.
Quote from: Annah on September 23, 2011, 01:00:38 PM
It's easy to fall into prejudice and malice or spite in any venue. It takes much more control to practice open mindedness and civility.
It takes a daily act of conscious control, its not easy, but how does it feel to be treated like that? Not good at all.
Goodbye Ann and others. I value the diversity of opinion because it helps me think carefully about what often seems rather overwhelming. I'm learning to trust myself but hearing different views have often given me pause to thought. Although the tone of some threads can be more than a little challenging at times, I don't see why everything needs to be so tense and a little goodwill would go a long way when discussing so many emotional issues. But I appreciate it is difficult when we are so heavily vested in the topics.
In then end, people will come and go. They will move on and hopefully find what they need. I too hope that they find peace just as many of us are searching for it here. In the meantime, I hope that we can be kind to each other here in the midst of the most difficult topics otherwise this will feel a lot less safe a place to share. I know that in open sharing I have the best opportunity to develop on my own transition journey. Today, I am wishing everyone well! May the tough and difficult conversations continue, but may it be guided by the spirit of friendship.