When I was little, I was always told to be nice to girls, not play rough with them, It they asked for a toy give it to them and to respect them.
Growing up I was told it was being a gentleman...to open doors for ladies, give up your seat on a bus or train, let them go infront of you in a queue and lots of other things around respect.
When I transitioned at work, on my very first day one of the Senior Managers opened the door for me and let me go through first... "after you ladies first", I will never forget that, good manners, well appreciated.
BUT IS CHIVALRY DEAD?
Recently a number events have shown me that the respect men had for women (i.e Chivalry) has changed......
On a recent trip, a young mother carrying a newborn and struggling with a stroller and a two large bags got onto a coach to transfer us to the plane, No one but me gave up a seat for her (I also carried the stroller & bags up the airplane steps for her)
On my last visit to the UK an elderly gentleman offered to give up his seat on an underground train to a single young girl and was met with a tirade of abuse about him being a pervert and a sexist and she didn't need help from any guy.
I recently got to a door the same time as an English guy. We both stopped looked at each other and he opened the door and walked through first (shutting the door behind him).
I recently had a puncture and changed the wheel by myself ( I have no problem with that), but two women stopped to ask if I was OK, not a single guy.
There are a number of other incidents that I could go into (but wont).
A number of reasons spring to mind.
(a) Women these days are focused on equality, it is almost seen as an afront that any man dare treat her as anything less than equal
(b) Men are less inclined to show any kind of friendship towards female strangers given how easy it is to fall foul of sexual discrimination laws
(c) Children are not brought up with the level of manners, respect that has been prevelant in previous generations and this is now being shown in adulthood.
As a woman, I find it wonderful when men treat me with respect, it nice, re-enforces my own feminimity, ups my confidence level and makes me feel good. I view this as part of female privlidges, that men will behave this way becaue we are ..... women.
I would be interested in what others think, how are you treated? What do FTM's think about chivalry and for our Androgyne friends... what role do you play in Chivalry.
Buffy
Dead..? No.. Seriously ill, yes.
But like you allready pointed out, chivalry isn't often appreciated nowadays. Not when a complete stranger is the one being chivalrous. Why?
I'll just call myself 'a complete stranger,' now...
Don't talk to me. I am dangerous, I rape little girls, and boys, and I want to give you poisonous candy.
If I speak to you, ignore me, because clearly I am interested in you, and I want to harm you.
Don't ask me the time, what time the next bus comes, and don't ask me for directions. I'm deeply evil and dangerous.
If you are a woman, I am trice that dangerous to you, because I have a beard, and therefor, I want to have sex with you.
Why am I? Because I am A Complete Stranger.
I once cycled past a woman shouting for her child. When I cycled on, I went past a child crying for her mother. So I stopped the bike, locked it, took the infant by the hand, and led her back to her mommy, saying: Here she is again. Found her down the road. I expected her to be happy with the help, because there was quite some distance between them. Instead, the woman grabbed the child by the arm, and pulled her away from me, giving me a nasty glare. Not exactly what one would call inspiring to try that a second time. When they wondered off, I heard the woman hiss: Don't you talk to strange men again!
Another example of the Male Perfect Stranger phenomenon:
This was at a school. In the auditorium. This girl comes up to me, and tells me I'm a woman-hater, because I have a beard. So I'm pretty confused, and ask her what a beard has to do with it. She says that men only have beards if they want to show off their masculinity, as opposed to femininity.
Well, facial hair sort of grows, I answered. She says I should shave off my beard to show compassion to woman. I told her to have her breasts removed to show compassion to men. I left, afterwards.
I am a great supporter of equal rights, for everyone. I really love a woman that doesn't get stuck in role-patterns. One of my best friends, a man, wears his hair in two pig-tails with pink bands. It looks really good on him, too. I hate it when people make remarks like: A man is only good to open jars and lift weights. I hate it when people say: A woman should stay in the kitchen.
But a little kindness is now often not at all appreciated, especially from men. So.. We tend to stop bothering, I think.
Quote from: Buffy on March 01, 2007, 07:12:18 AM
A number of reasons spring to mind.
(a) Women these days are focused on equality, it is almost seen as an afront that any man dare treat her as anything less than equal
(b) Men are less inclined to show any kind of friendship towards female strangers given how easy it is to fall foul of sexual discrimination laws
(c) Children are not brought up with the level of manners, respect that has been prevelant in previous generations and this is now being shown in adulthood.
The first 2 reasons are what immediately came to mind. I'm not so sure about the last one, although I think with teenagers nowdays, this would apply. I was raised to respect women. However, I think the first reason stated is one of the biggest ones. If we want to be treated equally, we should expect men to be the only ones doing the nice thing. Before I ever transition, I would hold doors open for both women AND men. I treated them as people, not men or women. I never got any complaints for doing this either. Now as a woman, I don't expect chivalry, but it is welcomed when I do see it.
Quote from: Dryad on March 01, 2007, 08:56:55 AM
I once cycled past a woman shouting for her child. When I cycled on, I went past a child crying for her mother. So I stopped the bike, locked it, took the infant by the hand, and led her back to her mommy, saying: Here she is again. Found her down the road. I expected her to be happy with the help, because there was quite some distance between them. Instead, the woman grabbed the child by the arm, and pulled her away from me, giving me a nasty glare. Not exactly what one would call inspiring to try that a second time. When they wondered off, I heard the woman hiss: Don't you talk to strange men again!
Oh, this is one of those things I hated about being male. You were always assumed to be a bad or guilty person unless you proved otherwise. Also talking to women was difficult because they assumed you always wanted sex and in my case, that was far from the truth. Once a guy is married, they are generally percieved as safer since they know at least one women has given him the ok. Living as a woman now and actually being presumed innocent is such a welcome relief. People don't scrutinize you as hard to make sure you are not trying to slip something by them.
Quote from: Dryad on March 01, 2007, 08:56:55 AM
Another example of the Male Perfect Stranger phenomenon:
This was at a school. In the auditorium. This girl comes up to me, and tells me I'm a woman-hater, because I have a beard. So I'm pretty confused, and ask her what a beard has to do with it. She says that men only have beards if they want to show off their masculinity, as opposed to femininity.
Well, facial hair sort of grows, I answered. She says I should shave off my beard to show compassion to woman. I told her to have her breasts removed to show compassion to men. I left, afterwards.
Great response. :D
Quote from: Dryad on March 01, 2007, 08:56:55 AM
I am a great supporter of equal rights, for everyone. I really love a woman that doesn't get stuck in role-patterns. One of my best friends, a man, wears his hair in two pig-tails with pink bands. It looks really good on him, too. I hate it when people make remarks like: A man is only good to open jars and lift weights. I hate it when people say: A woman should stay in the kitchen.
I don't think anybody likes to be expected to be stereotypical all the time. Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. For instance the stereotype for women is to dress up nicely and use makeup and everything. I do that when I go to work, but sometimes I just wear jeans if that's all I feel like doing.
Quote from: Dryad on March 01, 2007, 08:56:55 AM
But a little kindness is now often not at all appreciated, especially from men. So.. We tend to stop bothering, I think.
Well, perhaps with
some people this is true, but I know I appreciate it. :)
Melissa
Part of what goes on with declining gender differentiation is that gender-specific treatment will decline, including so-called chivalry. Conceding seats in my lifetime is pretty much limited to people with disability (at least we do that much). Regarding car trouble, it can be dangerous for someone to help others in that kind of situation, and I personally wouldn't know enough about cars to volunteer myself anyway.
I think an important thing floating in this topic is that someone being "chivalrous" is going to have their intentions questioned. It really does happen, and even if it is kidding, that sort of joke gets old in a hurry.
Personally, if I am going through a door, and someone behind me would have it close in their face (or would seem to struggle with opening the door themselves), I will hold it open, regardless of who the person is -- I sacrifice a little time and effort in exchange of preventing a greater inconvenience (as well as a mild danger). However, if the person is capable of opening the door on their own and they are trailing me somewhat, I am not waiting -- in fact, some people would rather do things for themselves (even many those with disability), and you don't want to make it seem as if a favor you offer is unnatural.
I think an ideal approach is to offer courtesies when cost to yourself is small compared to the benefit to the other. Of course, this is a gender-blind approach, so women will be lack certain "traditional" perks, but the people that really need them will get them. If there's going to be gender equality, you can't *expect* preferential treatment on the basis of gender in any capacity -- but remember you can expect equal treatment.
Equality. Women and men are similar in every sense, right? >:D
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
I have men open doors for me all the time. I haven't noticed much of a change in what we call "chivalry". There are many that don't but there are several who do.
Brick always opens the car door for me... okay most of the time. He certainly tries and that's what counts so much to me.
I always try to be considerate for people where doorways are concerned. I'll also try to help someone in need. What goes around comes around. I think a lot of it is in your face or personality or whatever. It certainly ain't my looks anymore ;)
Cindi
I just had a man open a door for me tonight, and a hotel clerk tell me "Be careful, ma'am." A store clerk treated me with courtesy like I have never experienced as a man. So sick, perhaps. Dead, not yet.
Kristi
At one of my former places of employment, the smoking area was outside one of the side doors. I had one co-worker and friend, a genuinely nice guy who, when out smoking, would open the door for anyone coming up to it, male or female. One morning a young woman was coming up to the door, my co-worker opened it for her and she actually went to management to file a sexual harassment complaint against him. The complaint of course had to be investigated but was dismissed because most everyone in management knew my co-worker was just being polite. Basically the complainant was told, in nice terms, to get a life. My friend quit opening doors for people.
Is it any wonder when things like this happen that men are gun shy about being polite?
Bev
Quote from: AnomieAssassin on March 02, 2007, 02:55:22 PM
My door policy is to hold the door open for whoever is behind me (not really hold it open, but nudge it so that it doesn't close in the person's face). If the person is far enough behind me that the door will close before they reach it, I will not hold it open because they will feel obligated to rush forward to accept my "politeness".
This is pretty much what I was raised with.
Yeah, that's what my "new" door policy has been since transitioning. Since I'm the girl now, I like to take advantage of it. ;D
Melissa
Well I happened to have recently had a nice evening with a gentleman. It was rainy and cold and he walked me to my car (we had to drive seperately) since he had a big umbrella, not once but twice. :)
I have seen many women react negatively to men doing things such as opening doors, etc so it is no wonder that we do not see it as often.
No, it's not dead. It's mutating. The cosmic radiation of the 21st century has morphed this once noble beast into a strange thing. I like to call it "hollow manners".
Everyone is polite to one another in this sort of paranoid, fake way. You ever notice that bizarre facial expression that people have only been doing for the past decade? You know, the one where they sort of purse their lips a little, but aren't smiling or scowling? They usually avert their eyes, and it's in a situation where they probably should be smiling, but they aren't. They're doing that wierd little expression. I don't know how to describe it, but it drives me insane (I work in customer service so I have to put up with it constantly.) I notice that upper-middle class Americans do it the most.
As a woman, I can say with honesty that I love having men open doors for me, or give up their seat, or other gestures. It makes me feel royal. I don't think it's necessary, though. I'd rather have people just help or be polite to one another based on the fact that they're people. I've noticed more and more of this universal politeness, though in America, paranoia seems to put a damper on it.
~ Blair
It seems to me that using good manners is simply a way to maintain friendly and peaceful relations between me and the world at large. "Chivalry" is an anachronistic term that we use today to describe those particular rules that apply to the areas of relation between men and women. The original chivalric philosophy put women on pedestals and contributed to their subjugation by the men who supposedly "worshipped" them.
I believe that the continuing marketing propaganda that we are subjected to makes us, as a culture, more and more self-centered and less likely to be willing to be thoughtdul and considerate of others. I think women who berate men for trying to be nice are being selfrighteously insecure and I think that men are unsure of how to act sometimes because of these women combined with the changing rules that we've seen in the past decades. (Of course, I never really knew the rules of being a guy in relation to women, but that's a different story :D)
So I think that I am glad the true chivalry is dead and I wish that more people would simply use respect, kindness and common decency when dealing with others in the world. It would make all our lives easier if that would happen.
hugs & smiles
helen
dying some but i do not think dead but this latest block of young people are very hard to understand.....
I think the world is rapidly changing we should take heed of how the young people are how they act what they view as important and not... cause it will affect us as we age and they come into adulthood and perhaps are ruling or governing our countries by then>?
Ricki
well, i think it depends on [your] definition of chivalry. the codes of chivalry have long been dead but have had a [profound effect] on the west's interpretation of [feminism], and was seriously reflected upon during the [victorian Era]. however, the [feminist movement] has done much to erase those [cultural attitudes towards females] originally brought upon by the codes of chivalry.
Keep in mind that I'm not out at work yet! Once several weeks ago, a female customer came up to me and asked me where the bathroom was. She was carting three kids around... one on each arm, one hanging on to her leg, literally. They were ranging from 1-4 years old. It was an odd sight and she obviously needed help so instead of just telling her where the bathroom was, I walked her back to where there and opened the door for her to let her in. She was very inappreciative and rude, but I figured "with three kids hanging all over me, I'd be pretty darned grouchy too!" and thought no more of it.
Two days later my manager came up to me and said that there had been a serious complaint made against me. This woman who I'd gone far out of my way to help claimed that I had used this as an excuse to gain an inappropriate view of the women's restroom. Words like "pervert" and "possible sexual harassment" came up.
With things like this going on... I can understand why men aren't eager to help out the random woman. It's my job to help people and I got slammed for it. Luckily my manager saw it for what it was and I got off the hook fairly easily.
Tak you still did the right thing, interesting as a woman or if a woman was there would a single woman have helped the mother of three?
I dunno chivalry old term to me
COMMON COURTESY - new term and it's severly lacking in the us culture....
people are just rude and ignorant now adays at least in the states, Pittsburghers are awful....
That's my story and i'm sticking to it!
Ricki
I'm a big believer in manners and courtesy. I agree with all of the previous commentators who have said that some women will take it as sexist and react very negatively when you open a door for them or help them. That seems to be declining though. It was worse a few years ago as I recall. I haven't had any incidents with women that would cause me to stop being courteous.
Except one, although it wasn't a rude response on the part of a woman. I was in an underground parking lot, alone, walking to the elevator, when a woman on crutches came out of the elevator with some packages. I was still quite a distance away from her and was going to go and help her, but I saw the look of fear on her face and thought she'd be more comfortable if I just walked the other way and took the stairs. It was a perfectly understandable look of fear, she was vulnerable and I was a lone guy in the underground parking lot, so I didn't take offense. I do wish there'd been something that I could've thought of to ease that fear and give her the hand she needed, but Ted Bundy pretty well killed that option.
The only person I've ever had react rudely to my opening a door for them was a man, pre-transition. He stopped dead and flat refused to go through it and yanked it away from me rudely as though I was trying to usurp his masculinity by holding the door open for him. And it had been perfectly logical. We both arrived at the door at the same time, I was on the right side, so I reached over and took the handle to allow him to go first.
And bus seats - a woman with children, a woman with heels on, or a senior or disabled person always gets my seat. I'm not gonna give it up for a woman in sneakers who looks as capable as me of standing though.
The fear women have for their children is quite understandable given the coverage of sex offences these days, so I also act very cautiously in those circumstances. I guess you have to temper the urge to help out with some empathy for the person. Sounds like that's what you did, Tak. That complaint you received was way out of line.
And a slight digression. An FtM guy, no bottom surgery, on another board I belong to, got a complaint at work - he works in a hospital - that he had had an erection while examining this woman's child. Now that's a tricky situation. How do you answer that? "Um, I don't have one, so I couldn't have..."
Anyway, I will continue to use manners and courtesy where able and if I get a rude reaction or a complaint, I guess I'll reassess it at that time.
Dennis
That was very good Dennis!
ricki
Quote from: Ricki on March 07, 2007, 07:35:04 PM
Tak you still did the right thing, interesting as a woman or if a woman was there would a single woman have helped the mother of three?
I dunno chivalry old term to me
COMMON COURTESY - new term and it's severly lacking in the us culture....
people are just rude and ignorant now adays at least in the states, Pittsburghers are awful....
That's my story and i'm sticking to it!
Ricki
I did it because it was customer service, and I'm customer service oriented despite being rather uncomfortable as a salesperson. Gender really played no role in it for me, I'd have done the same for a man.
I will say that it isn't dead. Recently, when I've bought things, I've had the sales guy carry it out to my car without even asking. I thought it was sweet, so I let them do it. Heck, I'm going to enjoy every aspect of being female.
Quote from: Dennis on March 07, 2007, 07:54:34 PM
And a slight digression. An FtM guy, no bottom surgery, on another board I belong to, got a complaint at work - he works in a hospital - that he had had an erection while examining this woman's child. Now that's a tricky situation. How do you answer that? "Um, I don't have one, so I couldn't have..."
Was he wearing a packer perhaps?
Melissa
Melissa it was your tattoo, I know it!
hehe
Ricki :-*
Apparently no packer, Melissa. Must've just been a fold in the cloth or something.
Dennis
Quote from: Ricki on March 14, 2007, 08:10:03 PM
Melissa it was your tattoo, I know it!
hehe
Ricki :-*
I didn't have the tattoo yet with the first guy and the second never saw it. Also, I have had several guys give up their seats on the train for me (no ricki, they didn't see my tattoo either). So it seems it is far from dead.
Melissa
Chivalry is not dead but that has actually created a slight problem for me. It's very hard for me to make the mental change from male to female as relates to accepting that chivalry, as opposed to offering it. For example, accepting a male opening a door for me while I'm en femme or my not offering to buy a round of drinks when I feel it's my turn (while sitting at a table with a male). Just two examples but I could list more. It's very hard to adjust to having things done for you that you feel are your responsibility due to your male mindset.
Quote from: Reana on March 16, 2007, 10:22:47 AM
It's very hard to adjust to having things done for you that you feel are your responsibility due to your male mindset.
Hmm, I never had that mindset. Holding doors for other people was about the extent of what I did, but I realize if I continue to do that, it would make it hard to pass. Buying a round of drinks? Hmm, never did that one. Sorry, I wasn't a very good male. The socialization never stuck.
Melissa