A post by another user reminded me of something I've been contemplating for a time.
Have you ever been walking down the street and seen a person and just known that they might be trans? It's not that they're not passable--they might be perfectly passable--but you know how transpeople (especially ones who hang out with other transpeople a lot) always have an unusually refined "transdar." We just know sometimes. Especially when they're our same sex.
Have you ever noticed what you think is another transguy, and then he notices you, and then gives you the same look and you think that maybe you're both thinking the same thing? How could two such people acknowledge each other discreetly in a manner that others wouldn't notice? (Especially if you're the nosy type that just can't leave well enough alone and let the mystery live.)
Solution: We need to agree on a secret wave or handshake. (I've had other guys do the "nod" thing before to me, but that always leaves the possibility that they're just saying hello in a subtle fashion and they're not trans.)
yeah the 'dude nod' is just a way of saying hello
Personaly if there was such a thing I would never use it. I would not want to ruin a fellow transitioners day by letting them know I clocked them.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 07:32:52 PM
Personaly if there was such a thing I would never use it. I would not want to ruin a fellow transitioners day by letting them know I clocked them.
I could see that, but at the same time, it's not like it's clocking, really. Sometimes I notice things a cis-gendered person would NEVER notice. It's not that they're not passable or anything, it's just that other transpeople know sometimes.
I can see what you mean though. I may have been offended in early transition if another transperson clocked me, but now that I'm deeper in and it's been longer, I don't really give that much of a crap. In earlier transition, being clocked pretty much ended up meaning someone thought I still looked like a girl, but after awhile when T had afforded me more in terms of passability, another transperson thinking I might be trans too meant nothing of the sort--it just meant they could sense something I had in common with them.
Being trans isn't a bad thing, and I don't think there's any need to be offended if someone--especially another transperson--just knows, especially if it's not due to any lack of passability.
Anyway, I still vote for their being a secret wave or such. Because I'm just that goddamn nosy.
Well, you didn't hear it from me, but when I signed up for the crossdressers membergroup here, I got a secret decoder ring. Shhhh, hugs, Tracey
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 07:32:52 PMyeah the 'dude nod' is just a way of saying hello
Personaly if there was such a thing I would never use it. I would not want to ruin a fellow transitioners day by letting them know I clocked them.
well that wouldn't happen in every circumstance.
For example, a very similar thing happened to me. First of all, I pass from a distance, but as soon as I talk people know I have a female body. which leads them to usually just wonder if I'm a lesbian then.
Well I walked into my sociology class on the first day, and there was another trans kid there who was like me, FTM, and he (hate to say it) did not pass all that well. People could look at him or hear him and know he had a female body. but there was something about him where I just knew he was trans, I kinda doubted myself and thought he could be a lesbian. But the main confirmation I had that he was trans was that the whole class time he kept looking at me. Like he also knew that I was trans.
In such a case, giving him the "secret wave" or something would not let him know that he wasn't passing to me, because he already wasn't passing. it was more just confirming to him his suspicions about me.
After class, I finally just talked to him and confirmed that he was trans that way, lol.
I vote we run up to each other and give each other a massive belly bump. ;D
In all seriousness though, I think this is a pretty good idea. Mostly because I find myself wondering sometimes. :s
Lol Tracey. And Bradd. This thread makes me giggle.
Yeah Leek I've thought the same thing. I'm nosy, and I see trans or possibly trans folks downtown or in my neighborhood all the time. I want to say something sometimes, but I'm not great at tact and lol that might be a really messed-up way to start a conversation. I do think I've been acknowledged a couple times by people who were looking at me the same way I was looking at them, and that's kinda neat.
I don't ever get offended if another transperson clocks me. That doesn't really count. We have telltales (which cispeople won't usually notice) that aren't really connected to whether or not we're passing.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 07:32:52 PM
yeah the 'dude nod' is just a way of saying hello
Personaly if there was such a thing I would never use it. I would not want to ruin a fellow transitioners day by letting them know I clocked them.
This.
Quote from: Leek on October 16, 2011, 07:39:36 PM
I could see that, but at the same time, it's not like it's clocking, really. Sometimes I notice things a cis-gendered person would NEVER notice. It's not that they're not passable or anything, it's just that other transpeople know sometimes.
I can see what you mean though. I may have been offended in early transition if another transperson clocked me, but now that I'm deeper in and it's been longer, I don't really give that much of a crap. In earlier transition, being clocked pretty much ended up meaning someone thought I still looked like a girl, but after awhile when T had afforded me more in terms of passability, another transperson thinking I might be trans too meant nothing of the sort--it just meant they could sense something I had in common with them.
Being trans isn't a bad thing, and I don't think there's any need to be offended if someone--especially another transperson--just knows, especially if it's not due to any lack of passability.
Anyway, I still vote for their being a secret wave or such. Because I'm just that goddamn nosy.
How do you
know? You say it's not cause they aren't passable but that you just
know. What basis are you using to identify other trans people. There is no way to know for sure because no matter what you think about the way a person looks, carries themselves, etc. you will never know what is in their pants or their hearts for that matter unless they tell you.
Some would be very offended even if you aren't saying they aren't "passable" because to them they are just any other guy or girl. They are not trans identified, they feel as though it's a medical condition that should not be the main descriptor/identifier of their lives.
I personally would be pretty pissed because I am a man and no one has the right to act so all knowing as to out themselves to me (while implying that I am trans) without any provocation.
Sometimes I wish I could just mentally transmit a thought to someone like that - like they, hey I know ... kinda thing. But then again, I'm never 100% sure either so I wouldn't want to look like a dork lol
Usually if I'm being really observant the things that tip me off are:
1) smaller bone structure - that just leads me to believe the "born female" thing more times than not
2) no facial hair but very male haircut
3) if they're only wearing one shirt and I can see they're binding
But other than that, all bets are off. Even on #1 and 2 above I've seen male-bodied people occasionally fit that, so it's just really tough to tell.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 16, 2011, 09:36:15 PM
Usually if I'm being really observant the things that tip me off are:
1) smaller bone structure - that just leads me to believe the "born female" thing more times than not
2) no facial hair but very male haircut
3) if they're only wearing one shirt and I can see they're binding
Or you think tip you off. They could have androgen insensitivity syndrome or any other number of things. They shave very closely or have light thin hair. They are from a race where small bone structure is the norm. They could have a back brace on (there are some you wear under your clothes) or be using a girdle cause they have a gut they are self-concious of.
Quote from: Leek on October 16, 2011, 07:27:28 PM
A post by another user reminded me of something I've been contemplating for a time.
Have you ever been walking down the street and seen a person and just known that they might be trans? It's not that they're not passable--they might be perfectly passable--but you know how transpeople (especially ones who hang out with other transpeople a lot) always have an unusually refined "transdar." We just know sometimes. Especially when they're our same sex.
Have you ever noticed what you think is another transguy, and then he notices you, and then gives you the same look and you think that maybe you're both thinking the same thing? How could two such people acknowledge each other discreetly in a manner that others wouldn't notice? (Especially if you're the nosy type that just can't leave well enough alone and let the mystery live.)
Solution: We need to agree on a secret wave or handshake. (I've had other guys do the "nod" thing before to me, but that always leaves the possibility that they're just saying hello in a subtle fashion and they're not trans.)
Wave with the pinky finger bent to the palm and the fingers together not loose.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 16, 2011, 09:51:57 PM
Or you think tip you off. They could have androgen insensitivity syndrome or any other number of things. They shave very closely or have light thin hair. They are from a race where small bone structure is the norm. They could have a back brace on (there are some you wear under your clothes) or be using a girdle cause they have a gut they are self-concious of.
You missed that I also said ...
"But then again, I'm never 100% sure either"
and
"Even on #1 and 2 above I've seen male-bodied people occasionally fit that, so it's just really tough to tell."
I'm one of the people who "get it" so you don't have to come at me as if I just said I know for certain, all the time, every time, that someone is transgendered and that I'd actually say something about it to them. People assume I'm female all the time, you think I'd be the type of person to assume gender about someone else and walk up to them and confront them about it?
What I say to myself in my head when I see someone who MIGHT be trans is a far throw from me actually going up to someone and saying something. I'd never go up to someone and say anything about gender, no matter what they looked like. People assume, that's just the nature of people - but when you take it a step further, that's a bit of a different story isn't it?
Besides all that I think the OP meant this as a joke.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 16, 2011, 10:05:46 PM
You missed that I also said ...
"But then again, I'm never 100% sure either"
You're right I did miss that but my points still stand for others that believe there is a way to
know when really there is not.
Quote from: cynthialee on October 16, 2011, 07:32:52 PM
yeah the 'dude nod' is just a way of saying hello
Personaly if there was such a thing I would never use it. I would not want to ruin a fellow transitioners day by letting them know I clocked them.
Sorry to intrude but I'm drunk enough ...
The 'dude nod' made me smile. This is one of those things that has vexed me for a long time (though I return it in kind as to not seem a jerk). I receive these from time to time, along with the way a guy holds a door open for another guy (looks back, pauses and lets go of the door in just enough time so that the next guy can catch it, if he hustles, just before it completely closes).
Almost depressing to see all the things you guys see happening to me.
(Again, sorry but Captain Morgan said it was Ok to post here tonight)
Anywho, carry on.
Wait are non FTM not aloud to go into the FTM section? ???
Quote from: Abstract on October 16, 2011, 10:40:29 PM
Wait are non FTM not aloud to go into the FTM section? ???
No, why do you think that?
It seemed implied when the above said, "(Again, sorry but Captain Morgan said it was Ok to post here tonight)"
IDK..just checkin I guess
Oh, nah I think it's fine to have the girls coming over here, but I guess some must feel like they don't want to intrude on our space.
There is a flaw in this plan. And it's not the idea. I do really like it. The problem is, people talk. Someone somewhere would blab and show the secret handshake to a non-trans person who would pass this information on. It's just human nature. Now say someone who is very transphobic learns of this ritual. They could in theory turn it against us and use it to cause us harm. He learns this handshake, sees a really cute guy or girl and does the handshake. Guy or girl responds with the correct response to identify themselves as trans. Villain has his next victim.
Another issue is spreading this secret handshake around to the trans- masses while keeping it among us and not into the cis-gendered world.
It's fun to talk about, but I don't think OP or the other posters really meant that we should invent and implement something like this. I took it as tongue in cheek.
Quote from: Keaira on October 17, 2011, 12:30:54 AM
There is a flaw in this plan. And it's not the idea. I do really like it. The problem is, people talk. Someone somewhere would blab and show the secret handshake to a non-trans person who would pass this information on. It's just human nature. Now say someone who is very transphobic learns of this ritual. They could in theory turn it against us and use it to cause us harm. He learns this handshake, sees a really cute guy or girl and does the handshake. Guy or girl responds with the correct response to identify themselves as trans. Villain has his next victim.
Another issue is spreading this secret handshake around to the trans- masses while keeping it among us and not into the cis-gendered world.
One option would be to choose a particularly long but common handshake and alter it slightly at the very end...
Ooo I've got it! We could all get one of those little LED light keychains in a certain color and flash them at each other. Like one person is questioning so they fiddle with it and flash it at the person and if you're trans you could flash yours back! :laugh:
And then your batteries die, and the other person thinks, "I guess I was wrong, he's not trans."
Lol, j.k :P
Quote from: JohnAlex on October 17, 2011, 02:47:37 AM
And then your batteries die, and the other person thinks, "I guess I was wrong, he's not trans."
Lol, j.k :P
I can totally see it! Running down the street after them going "waittt! You've got it all wrong! My batteries are just dead :(" and seeing the people on the side of the road just staring on in confusion. :D
yeah i was thinking the same thing. i was thinking of the christian fish thing and how christians in ancient rome would come up to another person they thought was christian and make an arc in the dirt and then the other person would complete the fish if they where christian.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.superchrist.com%2Fimages%2Ffish_black.gif&hash=12f205fcfb96e84ba3c3c23848d9fdf45c41ead7)
idk what our secret handshake should be.
Quote from: Abstract on October 16, 2011, 10:49:17 PM
It seemed implied when the above said, "(Again, sorry but Captain Morgan said it was Ok to post here tonight)"
IDK..just checkin I guess
FYI Captain Morgan isn't a mod or anything...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyUyuK.jpg&hash=4d105b4f256ec9180f3d1d340745ad3bf4fd1a29)
Oh dear.
First of all:
Quote from: Felix on October 17, 2011, 12:34:30 AM
It's fun to talk about, but I don't think OP or the other posters really meant that we should invent and implement something like this. I took it as tongue in cheek.
Yeah, I'm not launching a campaign here. It was just me letting my imagination run. But even if I was really serious about this, I don't see why it should be a problem at all that I was.
And second of all:
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 16, 2011, 09:33:30 PMHow do you know? You say it's not cause they aren't passable but that you just know. What basis are you using to identify other trans people.
Hard to say. There are just little things that are hard to parse. I'm sure if I sat down and thought about it, I could break it down, but there's no reason for me to do that because my transdar works okay as it is.
And it's different for every person, too. And also beyond the scope of this thread--goes way too off topic.
Besides, it doesn't matter, because you already seem to have an answer for me:
QuoteThere is no way to know for sure because no matter what you think about the way a person looks, carries themselves, etc. you will never know what is in their pants or their hearts for that matter unless they tell you.
Well, duh. lol. I didn't mean to say I knew absolutely for sure beyond a doubt, etc. It's more like a suspicion or something along those lines. It's a feeling that you
just know, not an actual absolute state of just knowing if that makes any sense. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise or implied I was clairvoyant or something.
Yes, there's no single tell-tale thing that will make any given transperson different from any given bioperson. But of course, you can't deny the history of a transperson and that's going to make some people from that general group have certain patterned things in common. There's no reason to deny this. It is what it is.
QuoteSome would be very offended even if you aren't saying they aren't "passable" because to them they are just any other guy or girl.
Of course there would be people who would be offended by this. I know this well. How do I know this? I'm trans and I hang out with other trans people. So many trans people (including myself) are offended by so many things, both reasonably and unreasonably. Name it, and I could find a reason for me to be offended about it. I mean, considering the types of situations a lot of us have been through, I wouldn't blame people, but still. WAY too sensitive. We all need to calm it down a little.
Btw, why can't someone be "just any other guy or girl" and also be trans? In a way, what that sort of attitude implies could also be kind of offensive to some people. It implies that a trans person is in fact not just any other guy or girl and has to hide the fact that they're not. That may be what some people out in the world think of us: That we're not "really" the gender we identify as, that we're not "normal" and should therefore pretend that we're not trans...but we all know that's not true. Being trans isn't a bad thing and it doesn't have to be that different from being a cis-person.
QuoteThey are not trans identified, they feel as though it's a medical condition that should not be the main descriptor/identifier of their lives.
Then wonderful.
But they're still transsexual in the sense of their history and I might notice it. Doesn't mean it's the center of either their life or mine. It's not. It's just a fact. I neither have to pay much attention to it in my daily life, nor do I have to deny it like it's a plague. I'm just a guy, trans or not.
Of course, if you sense that that's the type of person they are--very deep stealth--then it's only prudent to not try to talk to them about their transness. I know people who are like that--who don't like to acknowledge their transness--and that's fine. It's usually obvious by their demeanor if they don't want to be bothered. Either way, let's say you read them wrong and they
were very stealth and you did the "trans signal" to them anyway. They'd still have an easy way out: Not doing the secret handshake back or whatever.
Even deep stealth people need to get over it. There's moving beyond ones past, and then there's denying it to the point that you're offended if people notice they have a common condition to yours.
QuoteI personally would be pretty pissed because I am a man and no one has the right to act so all knowing as to out themselves to me (while implying that I am trans) without any provocation.
Wait, you'd be pissed if someone outed themselves
to you? I don't think it's something to be pissed about if someone, in goodwill, outs
themselves to you. That's showing a lot of friendliness and trust on their part, I think, even if by doing so they're implying that they think you're trans too. Again, why is being trans such a bad thing?
Aaaaanyway, obviously, this is all WAY off topic and there are different, underlying issues here that have to do with the difference between the "hating ones transness" camp, the "I don't really give a crap that I'm trans" camp," and the "Weeee! I'm trans!" camp.
We should all duke this out in a different thread if that's the case.
o.o Jeez lots of back and forth here.
I wouldn't mind if I got clocked by another trans person. I'd take it as a complement, because I guess that means there is something about me that leads them to think I'm a dude, and not a teenaged butch lesbian (like everyone including my family has assumed >.>).
So hey, I ran into a trans stranger on a train today and dealt with some of these dynamics. He asked me for a cigarette and called me "brother," then looked and asked "or is it sister?" I thought about it for a second and decided I was tired of being asked that question. I said I was trans. The guy immediately said "me too!" The answer was too quick, and I get messed with sometimes, so I thought he was teasing me. I just answered "Don't f*** with me," and went back to playing with my phone.
He moved to a seat closer to me and told me that he was MtF, but transition is difficult and expensive. He said he had just gotten out of the hospital after getting beat up for being gay. We talked a bit and he said it was so awesome that I identified trans so openly (I usually don't. I was just irritable), and it made him feel better. I had just outed myself on a crowded train, so I have to admit I was relieved at the lack of ill will. It worked out pretty alright.
Btw he told me to use male name and pronouns, so I swear I'm not being disrespectful.
I've never been asked directly, not even once, if I'm trans/boy/girl. Doesn't happen to me, people usually just make up their own ideas and don't consult me on the matter. I've had a few two way stares with people I suspected of being trans, even if it was based on zero evidence as anything can relate to a cisgender guy (only happens with people I think are ftm). I would actually not care at all if a trans person outed themselves to me, and wanted to know if I was trans, no matter how stealth I try to be... I like that connection, that feeling I get when I see them wondering the same about me and it's like for that moment no one has any idea what's going on. It's like secret agents from the same side noticing each other on the field, you may not know them that well, but you have an understanding of them that others just wouldn't get.
I would love if there was some secret wave/handshake thing, I know it borders on being offensive to some, but something like this would be the light of my day. I'm too scared to attend a trans group meeting so in reality I know ZERO trans people, so any, even just staring connections, lets me know that I'm understood and known by my own community, that generally doesn't go around with I'm trans t-shirts on every day or shouting it at the top of their lungs in super markets. I bet if the handshake/wave looked to cool though others may steal it, then you'd get all these people doing it to you and around you and you'd be stuck there wondering why everyone around you is seemingly trans and if you had some sort of trans bait attached to your bum.
I mean I like my privacy, I don't want the world to know everything about who I am, but when it's another someone like me, a trans person, I wouldn't mind sharing. Trans people are the one people who can understand a part of me (however big or small it is) that a non trans person just cannot do. It's like the most intimate stare/conversations that I have with trans people, because of that understanding. For me being trans isn't everything, I don't like to really talk about it because I constantly feel judged by the cisgender people, but with trans people I don't feel that way. But don't get me wrong, just because they are trans doesn't mean we'll get along or I'll share the most intimate/juicy details of my life, it's just sharing that I'm trans with non trans people isn't the same.
Anyways, I think we all should let our imaginations run wild here and come up with ideas regardless of what some trans people think. If you don't like the wave/handshake idea there is nothing that says if it were real that you'd ever have to be a part of it and do it. We're not making you sign a contract saying in such situations you are legally obligated to preform such handshake as to confirm any suspicions other trans people may have. That is all. :)
Quote from: Sharky on October 17, 2011, 03:06:23 PM
FYI Captain Morgan isn't a mod or anything...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyUyuK.jpg&hash=4d105b4f256ec9180f3d1d340745ad3bf4fd1a29)
::) really?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fundergroundfreakz.com%2Fs%2Fcontrib%2Fgeno%2Frofl.gif&hash=b3189dc4d39e2dbf9ea8ac883981eb2430e6fddb)
Quote from: Leek on October 17, 2011, 06:01:19 PM
Wait, you'd be pissed if someone outed themselves to you? I don't think it's something to be pissed about if someone, in goodwill, outs themselves to you. That's showing a lot of friendliness and trust on their part, I think, even if by doing so they're implying that they think you're trans too. Again, why is being trans such a bad thing?
I said I would be pissed if they outed themselves to me while implying that I am trans. I don't care if they out themselves but they should not imply that I am trans. I don't think that being trans is a bad thing but I do know that once someone finds out you are trans most usually aren't going to be able to stop themselves from asking questions that are invasive and rude, speculating on what you might look like without your clothes on, how you have sex, etc. I don't know about you but I personally transitioned so I could live as a man, not as "that guy who used to be a chick"
The phrase "some sort of trans bait attached to your bum" just leapt out at me. I know it was said to illustrate a point, and is not the point, but omg that made me laugh. :D
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 17, 2011, 11:36:24 PMI said I would be pissed if they outed themselves to me while implying that I am trans. I don't care if they out themselves but they should not imply that I am trans. I don't think that being trans is a bad thing but I do know that once someone finds out you are trans most usually aren't going to be able to stop themselves from asking questions that are invasive and rude, speculating on what you might look like without your clothes on, how you have sex, etc. I don't know about you but I personally transitioned so I could live as a man, not as "that guy who used to be a chick"
well if you got outed by another trans guy with the hand wave/shake thing, they would certainly NOT be thinking all that.
You're really getting offended for no reason, because like Jay said, even if such a hand shake/wave ever existed (which in likelihood never will) no one is forcing you to participate. So if a trans guy gives you a special wave, be my guest to look all confused and make him think he was wrong to suspect you of being trans.
that is all.
Quote from: JohnAlex on October 18, 2011, 01:06:32 AM
well if you got outed by another trans guy with the hand wave/shake thing, they would certainly NOT be thinking all that.
You're really getting offended for no reason, because like Jay said, even if such a hand shake/wave ever existed (which in likelihood never will) no one is forcing you to participate. So if a trans guy gives you a special wave, be my guest to look all confused and make him think he was wrong to suspect you of being trans.
that is all.
It's what it is implying that is ->-bleeped-<-ty. Why even bother transitioning if you believe everyone will be able to tell you are trans? And that not everyone identifies as a trans person. Some of us simply identify as people with a medical condition.
To me it is implying that we are trying to connect with someone who has most likely (obviously not always) had to deal with an in issue having to do with being trans.
Also I think it would be cool for the people who prefer to date trans people and are trans themselves. I mean think about it, there are gay bars and straight bars but no trans bars. I'm not suggesting there should be obviously because that could bring on so many hate issues. But it'd be nice to have a way of knowing "hey this person gets it. They won't hate on me for being myself ".
Andy, can I ask you something? Do you think a person can not be trans and also just be a man? No hate meant man, just curious because of your wording. Btw I try to be stealth to everyone except people who know and my groups I attend and I do get the wanting to just be seen as male in every day life.
Sorry for sidetracking your thread Leek.
Wether it's with LEDS, lasers, handshakes, smoke signals or dance, no one is forcing you to respond. You can look at them funny or flat out ignore them.
But me being me, I welcome others like me.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 01:14:23 AM
Why even bother transitioning if you believe everyone will be able to tell you are trans?
I thought we transition to feel comfortable in our skin...
I mean I know passing is important (for most), but if it's only really other trans people who guess that you're trans, I don't see the big deal. I mean I know it's not for all of us, but it's not EVERYONE who knows or has suspicions. I mean I'm sure everywhere you go there isn't a trans person on the prowl for other trans people... in fact I've only ever had it happen two-three times. It's not as though the moment you step outside the house there is going to be a trans person everywhere with that little signal to say they are trans too. It won't happen where you won't be able to step into a shop without some kid jumping frantically up and down shouting "ME TOO!" So again, I see no harm. If it's not in your interest to be out (as trans and remain full time stealth even with trans people) and assuming you don't live in a neighborhood where all your neighbors are trans, than there's nothing making you do something that doesn't exist... yet. >:-)
Quote from: xAndrewx on October 18, 2011, 01:41:38 AM
Do you think a person can not be trans and also just be a man?
I'm not sure what this wording means.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 07:00:28 AM
I'm not sure what this wording means.
Perhaps that it's not an either or choice. Like you don't have to choose being out as trans man or being seen as a cisgender man. Did I get it? It's kind of hard to explain, if I know what I think was being asked, lol. Like you have to remain stealth to all to be a man.... my brain hurts. I have no idea if I explained anything or made it more complex.
Haha yeah Jay thats what I meant. I haven't slept yet so you made way more sense than I did.
Basically I just meant (using myself as an example) do you think that if I choose to identify as trans does that mean I can't be just another guy too? Like am I not able to be a guy and identify as trans as the same time?
Honestly you dont have to answer. After thinking about it some more I realized that could be a personal question or one that some people on here might be afraid to answer because they don't want to start a disagreement. Sometimes my curiousity makes me a nosy guy, sorry.
Quote from: xAndrewx on October 18, 2011, 09:54:14 AM
Haha yeah Jay thats what I meant. I haven't slept yet so you made way more sense than I did.
Basically I just meant (using myself as an example) do you think that if I choose to identify as trans does that mean I can't be just another guy too? Like am I not able to be a guy and identify as trans as the same time?
Honestly you dont have to answer. After thinking about it some more I realized that could be a personal question or one that some people on here might be afraid to answer because they don't want to start a disagreement. Sometimes my curiousity makes me a nosy guy, sorry.
No I'm not saying that at all, but I don't like implications that because someone happens to have a trans history, that they will feel a connection to someone else with a trans history and want to converse about topics dealt with by trans people. I personally, at this point, though I identify as a man with a trans history and not as solely a trans man, have no problem discussing trans issues with others as long as I know them and have already told them about my past. Do I want random people coming to me on the street and saying "hey my brother, let's connect because we are both trans" that's not how it works. Do all people of a certain background, race, class, etc connect with each other all the time? Not really, because being of a somewhat common background or past really doesn't mean anything since everyone lives, experiences, and feels different things.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 12:10:47 PM
No I'm not saying that at all, but I don't like implications that because someone happens to have a trans history, that they will feel a connection to someone else with a trans history and want to converse about topics dealt with by trans people. I personally, at this point, though I identify as a man with a trans history and not as solely a trans man, have no problem discussing trans issues with others as long as I know them and have already told them about my past. Do I want random people coming to me on the street and saying "hey my brother, let's connect because we are both trans" that's not how it works. Do all people of a certain background, race, class, etc connect with each other all the time? Not really, because being of a somewhat common background or past really doesn't mean anything since everyone lives, experiences, and feels different things.
in my experience people of certain backgrounds connect all the time.
Quote from: Sharky on October 18, 2011, 01:19:57 PM
in my experience people of certain backgrounds connect all the time.
Lol I agree. If my family sees someone they suspect to be Ukrainian (usually by their last name) they will interact with them and treat them as though they were old friends. Sort of like when woman with children see other women with children and despite being entirely different people, just connect because of the one little thing no matter how insignificant others may find it to be. As humans this is what we do, we pick some one out out of the crowd and we connect, no matter how little or unimportant that factor is that we pick them out for. For trans people this may mean someone of gender, or for gays, another gay. I mean those in poverty connect with those in poverty. Those who are rich, connect with the rich. We find similarities, and we decide that it's enough to base the fact you may like this person and grow fond of them in the future. We're social creatures, we look for many excuses to say hello to someone.
Edit* Also sometimes we like to connect over deeper issues. I mean we have the option to walk up to someone who has the same sort of hair style or color, or we can look for a deeper connection that we may notice, for most this means bringing up things deeply personal. We think about something important to us, like if we are parents, or our background, religion, gender, sexuality, political views, and we talk about that. We could do light conversation about something simple, but than we don't get to truly know those around us, we lose the thing we're craving. We could talk about some movie we saw and learn little to nothing about the person, or we could reach a little further, see how far we can connect. I'm not an incredibly personal person, so I don't ask people things like this, but I respect when others do and try not to take offence because I know that unless they are asking it with a disgusted or angered look on their face, I have peeked their interest in human interaction that goes beyond small talk. And I have to say, I'd much rather chat with a stranger who isn't even trans about being trans, than about tJustin Beiber... so yeah... deep personal connection, GOOD!
Quote from: Sharky on October 18, 2011, 01:19:57 PM
in my experience people of certain backgrounds connect all the time.
You are missing my point which is that having a similar background doesn't imply a connection will be made or that both parties want that connection to be made.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 03:10:02 PM
You are missing my point which is that having a similar background doesn't imply a connection will be made or that both parties want that connection to be made.
All I was saying is that I do see people connecting over a similarity. I've connected with people after striking up a conversation when noticing a similarity before. You right, a connection isn't always made, but a lot of people enjoy connecting with others who have experienced a similar struggle. When I read the OP I assumed they were using "secrete handshake" for lack of a better term. I'm assuming the handshake doesn't have to be a handshake. In the scenario given a couple trans guys both want to acknowledge each other so the connection is wanted. Your right, in real life if you have a hunch someone is trans you won't be able to tell if seeking acknowledgement is wanted. The only way I see a way around this is a creation of a not so secret society of tight lipped individuals who enjoy discreetly connecting with each other. An easily misunderstood phrase would be ideal. Something that those outside of the society will not be able to pick up on. Obviously this is unrealistic because eventually someone will spill the beans especially since there will be little personal consequence. This is getting frivolous. It really isn't something to worry about, I doubt even a handshake will be implemented. I'm pretty sure the main idea was that OP wished he could easily find and connect with other trans guys, not lets get super defensive over a mountain made from a lighthearted mole hill.
Quote from: Sharky on October 18, 2011, 04:32:39 PM
All I was saying is that I do see people connecting over a similarity. I've connected with people after striking up a conversation when noticing a similarity before. You right, a connection isn't always made, but a lot of people enjoy connecting with others who have experienced a similar struggle. When I read the OP I assumed they were using "secrete handshake" for lack of a better term. I'm assuming the handshake doesn't have to be a handshake. In the scenario given a couple trans guys both want to acknowledge each other so the connection is wanted. Your right, in real life if you have a hunch someone is trans you won't be able to tell if seeking acknowledgement is wanted. The only way I see a way around this is a creation of a not so secret society of tight lipped individuals who enjoy discreetly connecting with each other. An easily misunderstood phrase would be ideal. Something that those outside of the society will not be able to pick up on. Obviously this is unrealistic because eventually someone will spill the beans especially since there will be little personal consequence. This is getting frivolous. It really isn't something to worry about, I doubt even a handshake will be implemented. I'm pretty sure the main idea was that OP wished he could easily find and connect with other trans guys, not lets get super defensive over a mountain made from a lighthearted mole hill.
Engaging in a discussion =/= getting
super defensive
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 04:59:14 PM
Engaging in a discussion =/= getting super defensive
You seemed to be getting pretty defensive, but it can be hard to tell over the internet. Sorry if I miss interpreted.
I actually haven't felt defensive in this post at all. Now if I was raging without thinking logically or admitting faults then yeah.
I just feel like Andy is the only one here who is against the idea and is trying to throw it out on account of his preference. But the fact is most everyone else who posted here likes the idea and would do it if such a thing were possible.
So you're just different, Andy. and you don't have to participate. But realize that most everyone else seems to like the idea and would do it. Therefore you should not be trying to throw it out on account of you.
Quote from: JohnAlex on October 18, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
I just feel like Andy is the only one here who is against the idea and is trying to throw it out on account of his preference. But the fact is most everyone else who posted here likes the idea and would do it if such a thing were possible.
So you're just different, Andy. and you don't have to participate. But realize that most everyone else seems to like the idea and would do it. Therefore you should not be trying to throw it out on account of you.
He's not the only one who is against the idea. I don't like it either. Just didn't feel the need to contribute.
Quote from: Adio on October 18, 2011, 09:30:40 PMHe's not the only one who is against the idea. I don't like it either. Just didn't feel the need to contribute.
Good idea. Because if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. This thread is more just for the people who DO want to do it.
Quote from: JohnAlex on October 18, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
I just feel like Andy is the only one here who is against the idea and is trying to throw it out on account of his preference. But the fact is most everyone else who posted here likes the idea and would do it if such a thing were possible.
So you're just different, Andy. and you don't have to participate. But realize that most everyone else seems to like the idea and would do it. Therefore you should not be trying to throw it out on account of you.
How about instead of you approaching those you feel are trans you could wear a button or other signal that says you are trans and would like to be approached.
Quote from: Adio on October 18, 2011, 09:30:40 PM
He's not the only one who is against the idea. I don't like it either. Just didn't feel the need to contribute.
This. Not everyone who is against it will be vocal about it. In fact, I would imagine the people who are against it are more likely to be quiet about it as they're probably the ones who are living stealth (i.e. they're probably not on this site anyway).
Sorry folks, but when you post in a public forum, you should expect differing opinions. That's how things typically work. :-\
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 10:01:58 PM
How about instead of you approaching those you feel are trans you could wear a button or other signal that says you are trans and would like to be approached.
I don't know why, but when I read this I immediately thought of trans toe rings, haha. Too bad that'll only work in warm weather ::)
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 10:01:58 PMHow about instead of you approaching those you feel are trans you could wear a button or other signal that says you are trans and would like to be approached.
Hey now this is a brilliant idea! You should have said this all along. I think this is a perfect compromise :)
Quote from: Brendon on October 18, 2011, 10:04:41 PM
This. Not everyone who is against it will be vocal about it. In fact, I would imagine the people who are against it are more likely to be quiet about it as they're probably the ones who are living stealth (i.e. they're probably not on this site anyway).
Sorry folks, but when you post in a public forum, you should expect differing opinions. That's how things typically work. :-\
Oh there's nothing wrong with differing opinions, but it's like this,
Imagine if someone here was the first to come up with the idea of a stand-to-pee device. And this person thought it was an idea worth looking into. And other trans people came along and said, "Hey, I would love a device to allow me to stand to pee."
And then a few other people came along and said, "I don't want to stand to pee. I have no need to." well that's fine that they don't want to. but that doesn't mean that they are the only ones who matter. There are others who DO want to, and they should be allowed to if they want to. and anyone who doesn't want to STP doesn't have to.
You can state your personal preference on using a STP or not. but don't ruin it for everyone else just because you don't want to.
This is all a moot point anyway because it'd be pretty much impossible to get all trans people to know the "trans" signal. So, everyone arguing is really about nothing.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 10:01:58 PM
How about instead of you approaching those you feel are trans you could wear a button or other signal that says you are trans and would like to be approached.
I know a guy who's got the trans symbol tattooed on his forearm. It's colorful and obvious, and he's pretty friendly and approachable. I've thought about ordering custom patches. I used to be gutterpunk, and I like to sew. If I had a patch I'd put it on my bag or something. They're not even expensive.
I'm not sure I'll ever be completely stealth. That's how my life worked out. To each his own.
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 17, 2011, 11:36:24 PMI don't think that being trans is a bad thing but I do know that once someone finds out you are trans most usually aren't going to be able to stop themselves from asking questions that are invasive and rude, speculating on what you might look like without your clothes on, how you have sex, etc.
Whether it bothers me or not that someone is speculating on what I might look like naked depends on how hot they are.
Though in all seriousness, I really don't think people think about that much. In my experience, most people are polite enough (or too embarrassed) to ask questions like that. Maybe that hasn't been the case with you and for some reason you've run into a bunch of rude people. I dunno. Just doesn't happen to me usually.
QuoteI don't know about you but I personally transitioned so I could live as a man, not as "that guy who used to be a chick"
Indeed, I don't think anybody transitions for that reason. And I don't think anybody is ever really known as "that guy who used to be a chick." Many guys may fear that, I know, but I think a person has to have a pretty bland personality if that's all they're known for. (Or else they're surrounded by less-than-smart individuals who just can't get past something slightly unusual. And I guarantee you, you can safely ignore what they have to say about you and not miss anything if that's the case.)
For me at least, the initial fear itself of being treated differently from other men because I'm trans was
way bigger than what actually turned out to be the reality of it on those occasions where people found out. (Basically, most of them didn't care.)
Quote from: Andy8715 on October 18, 2011, 10:01:58 PM
How about instead of you approaching those you feel are trans you could wear a button or other signal that says you are trans and would like to be approached.
I was thinking about this a moment, and I was like, "Really?!" [As I really only like collecting buttons, I am scared they will get lost/damaged if I wear them.] But, then I was looking around my room, trying think of an idea, when I spied my three month sober key chain. I demand we get key chains. ;p
Quote from: Felix on October 19, 2011, 03:16:50 AM
I know a guy who's got the trans symbol tattooed on his forearm. It's colorful and obvious, and he's pretty friendly and approachable. I've thought about ordering custom patches. I used to be gutterpunk, and I like to sew. If I had a patch I'd put it on my bag or something. They're not even expensive.
I'm not sure I'll ever be completely stealth. That's how my life worked out. To each his own.
My ex has the trans symbol on him somewhere, as does one of the ladies I'm interested in. We were swimming, and talking about tattooes, and she shows me the first, which had something to do with some frat, then she showed me her leg, "AND, THIS IS THE TRANS SYMBOL!" I mean, I knew that she was trans, but I was kinda shocked for it to be that way.