just something I've been wondering about for quite a while.......why we are referred to as elitists? we referring to post up gals
The most hurtful things I have ever had hurled my way since I started transition were from post-op women who were sitting in judgment, using their post-op status as their credentials for explaining my failings as a person and as a woman when their opinion was neither solicited nor wanted.
It has happened on more than one occasion and in more than one setting.
Now, I know some fabulous post op ladies who would never do that. But I also have yet to have a pre-op woman even come close to what some have said.
It depends on the person. There are some transwomen who claim to have a higher status just because they are post operative. In fact I met one a month ago claiming that everyone who doesn't have the srs as his or her highest priority is just playing dressup and not a real (wo)man.
It is people like these that might give others the unjust image that post op girls see themselves as elitist.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftransgirldiaries.com%2Fcomics%2F2011-04-22-0074.png&hash=53bdedc957fcf8bb89b4aefff7533336328cd248)
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 25, 2011, 10:35:30 PM
The most hurtful things I have ever had hurled my way since I started transition were from post-op women who were sitting in judgment, using their post-op status as their credentials for explaining my failings as a person and as a woman when their opinion was neither solicited nor wanted.
It has happened on more than one occasion and in more than one setting.
Now, I know some fabulous post op ladies who would never do that. But I also have yet to have a pre-op woman even come close to what some have said.
eg?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 10:39:33 PM
eg?
Some posts in a locked thread in the "ARGGHH" forum, basically to the effect that non-ops (even those who want but can't afford) are not "real women."
imho it's the minority that has issue with currently used terms and the whole "more (whatever) then thou" mentality that could take place within any other group/community.
while I disagree with some of the terms myself, getting something (terms) that both everyone can get behind of and is easy for joe public to understand is the hard part.
Well it's really simple for me. I call people what they ask to be called. Having respect for someone else's identity doesn't cost me anything and it makes them feel great, so why not?
well, for me, I do not believe that crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s should not be looped into the transgender umbrella. I fully believe that they should use a restroom/lockerroom/bathroom that is congruent with their sex and not their presentation.
I despise being categorically lumped into the same group as a crossdresser and a ->-bleeped-<-. does that method of thought qualify me as an elitist? or does my post op status qualify me as an elitist?
Why do you feel TVs should be restricted to men's rooms?
because they dont have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder and have no intentions of ever changing their sex.
oh god, not this argument again. It was beat into a bloody pulp last week
Quote from: Annah on October 25, 2011, 11:05:00 PM
oh god, not this argument again. It was beat into a bloody pulp last week
I wasnt back in here last week.........
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 10:58:39 PM
well, for me, I do not believe that crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s should not be looped into the transgender umbrella. I fully believe that they should use a restroom/lockerroom/bathroom that is congruent with their sex and not their presentation.
I despise being categorically lumped into the same group as a crossdresser and a ->-bleeped-<-. does that method of thought qualify me as an elitist? or does my post op status qualify me as an elitist?
pretty much, yes. Its that method of thought.
But as a non-op i have the legal right to use the bathroom that is congruent with my presentation under my states anti discrimination law (its specificly listed). It protects me from all kinds of people.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 11:02:55 PM
because they dont have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder and have no intentions of ever changing their sex.
I don't have the diagnosis and yet here I am.
(it takes a few years to get the "green light" in my country)
true, Jamie, but the last week before you left back in August you carried this conversation and we beat this into a pulp too.
You've been back for only a day and a half and it's starting right back up again.
Your opinion will never change. Other people's opinion will never change. To keep on bringing this up is kinda fruitless.
The History channel had a rather interesting program on Zombies this evening. It might be rearing as of now.
Though here on Susans, it's the night of the Undead Thread.
Quote from: amanda barber on October 25, 2011, 11:07:10 PM
pretty much, yes. Its that method of thought.
But as a non-op i have the legal right to use the bathroom that is congruent with my presentation under my states anti discrimination law (its specificly listed). It protects me from all kinds of people.
are you taking steps to correct natures mistakes.......estrogen, anti androgyns, planning on surgery or do you just dress as a woman?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 11:02:55 PM
because they dont have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder and have no intentions of ever changing their sex.
Is there a way to tell them apart from us? There are a lot of TVs who pass quite well whereas I still look like a man with long hair.
Leaving aside the moral arguments, how would you even police this?
Quote from: Annah on October 25, 2011, 11:09:11 PM
true, Jamie, but the last week before you left back in August you carried this conversation and we beat this into a pulp too.
You've been back for only a day and a half and it's starting right back up again.
Your opinion will never change. Other people's opinion will never change. To keep on bringing this up is kinda fruitless.
you're vastly misinterpreting the original post. the post wasnt intended to be a discussion about restroom rights and such, it's a question about the majority of post up gals being addressed as "elitists"......
Quote from: Lily on October 25, 2011, 11:12:09 PM
Is there a way to tell them apart from us? There are a lot of TVs who pass quite well whereas I still look like a man with long hair.
Leaving aside the moral arguments, how would you even police this?
but if I happen to be post op and that is my opinion and thought process, does that qualify me as being "elitist?"
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 11:15:43 PM
but if I happen to be post op and that is my opinion and thought process, does that qualify me as being "elitist?"
Does it really matter? Wear it with pride. :)
....
/sigh
I have an androgyn spouse.
I can not get behind anything that may restrict where my spouse can safely go to the toilet.
I do think that there are issues putting everyone of us under an umbrela but it is the best answer to a messy dilema.
Back on topic...
I don't think that all post op women are elietist but there are some that do seem to drip entitlement.
Quote from: amanda barber on October 25, 2011, 11:07:10 PM
pretty much, yes. Its that method of thought.
But as a non-op i have the legal right to use the bathroom that is congruent with my presentation under my states anti discrimination law (its specificly listed). It protects me from all kinds of people.
so what exactly about this thought pattern is elitist?
It sounds to me that you having passed thru the gate, now wish to become the gatekeeper.
Quote from: Michelle. on October 25, 2011, 11:33:33 PM
It sounds to me that you having passed thru the gate, now wish to become the gatekeeper.
me? if so, gatekeeper of what
Of who belongs and who docent belong. She who decides who, " is more equal than others".
This type of divisiveness is like a cancer.
Quote from: Michelle. on October 25, 2011, 11:39:33 PM
Of who belongs and who docent belong. She who decides who, " is more equal than others".
This type of divisiveness is like a cancer.
belong where?
I do not feel elitist, not before and not after SRS.
It might a delusion, if so please tell me.
HOWEVER, certain non- / pre-op members that like to dangle THEIR "dangle" blatantly in your face and keep on telling how much "WOMAN" they are - do become offensive to post-ops, if not "elitist" in THEIR own way?
Like hey! I'm one great gal, sexy woman AND I have and will keep my dangle! Look at ME!
That has the effect of saying: You dumb dolls had to go ALL THE WAY - and how much waste of time, pain and effort. LOOK AT ME! Nice dangle, eh!? And all the fun I have with it, and how LONG it is, golly!
By slightly overstating it above I might make the point that "elitism" is ALSO, or at least appears also, to be practiced on the non-post-op side, yes?
Like hey! I'm even one better, I can be SUCH a WOMAN and be a TV ... fill in what ever else you like.
And you dilly, silly, girls, look at me! I can have it all! Ouch!
Food for thought?
Axelle
Quote from: Axélle on October 25, 2011, 11:51:05 PM
I do not feel elitist, not before and not after SRS.
It might a delusion, if so please tell me.
HOWEVER, certain non- / pre-op members that like to dangle THEIR "dangle" blatantly in your face and keep on telling how much "WOMAN" they are - do become offensive to post-ops, if not "elitist" in THEIR own way?
Like hey! I'm one great gal, sexy woman AND I have and will keep my dangle! Look at ME!
That has the effect of saying: You dumb dolls had to go ALL THE WAY - and how much waste of time, pain and effort. LOOK AT ME! Nice dangle, eh!? And all the fun I have with it, and how LONG it is, golly!
By slightly overstating it above I might make the point that "elitism" is ALSO, or at least appears also, to be practiced on the non-post-op side, yes?
Like hey! I'm even one better, I can be SUCH a WOMAN and be a TV ... fill in what ever else you like.
And you dilly, silly, girls, look at me! I can have it all! Ouch!
Food for thought?
Axelle
me personally, I dont think........no, I know, I'd never refer to a ->-bleeped-<- or crossdresser as being a woman. for me, it's a whole lot more to the overall picture of a "woman" then just appearance or presentation, but hey, that's just me.
did you enjoy your time in Thailand? catch any of the kathoey shows while you were there?
Quote from: Laura91 on October 25, 2011, 11:59:13 PM
Well, let's flip that coin to the other side, shall we?
What about a post-op chick walks up to a bunch of bigots and says "I'm post op so I am a woman now!"
Would those bigots agree with her? Nope. Nada. Nu uh.
I think anyone that throws themselves in anyone's face is a douche no matter who they are.
+1
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 25, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
I'd never refer to a ->-bleeped-<- or crossdresser as being a woman. for me, it's a whole lot more to the overall picture of a "woman" then just appearance or presentation, but hey, that's just me.
Just a practical side question, how would you see the difference between a crossdresser and a pre-hrt transsexual if you met one? Would you call that person by the genetic sex or by the appearance?
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 12:03:52 AM
Just a practical side question, how would you see the difference between a crossdresser and a pre-hrt transsexual if you met one? Would you call that person by the genetic sex or by the appearance?
like I said, it's alot more involved than just appearance
Ok, then I'll rephrase it: how would you see the difference between a crossdresser and a pre-hrt transsexual if you met one? Would you call that person by the genetic sex or not?
I am asking this because although I agree with you in theory, I foresee difficulties by putting it into practice.
the answer to that is quite obvious, if they are pre estrogen you wont see any difference which is precisely the reason I said that it's a whole lot more than just appearance!
If it is obvious, then why haven't you answered it?
Jamie, you wrote:
QuoteI'd never refer to a ->-bleeped-<- or crossdresser as being a woman.
Because in real life the difference between a crossdresser and a pre-hrt transsexual is vague at best I wonder how you tell the 2 apart.
If you can't tell the 2 apart, then I wonder how you would refer to one, as male or as female (in case of a male to female ts, or a male crossdresser)?
Quote
did you enjoy your time in Thailand? catch any of the kathoey shows while you were there?
You joking hon, eh?
In any case I had to mind my post-op "condition" not sitting for any time on chairs, soft or hard... never mind for fun and games.
Working in Malaysia some years back I'd seen it. Seen one seen all. It can be entertaining the first time around though. A lot of cis folks go uh and ah, but so what, um.
Now, the "flipped coin" --- if it REALLY happens the same on each side then we both ELITE(ist), so then FFS what's the argument I ask?!? Please help!
Also a TV makes money as a VERY passable artist (my take) has to, and that is not so with a cd or pre-hrt person in general. Exceptions will always confirm the rule, and YMMV... ah.
Some of the latter can be/act downright embarrassing to the public in general, um?
My 2 cents,
Axelle
Wow. This thread has turned into a textbook case of the attitude the OP was asking about.
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 12:22:31 AM
If it is obvious, then why haven't you answered it?
Jamie, you wrote:Because in real life the difference between a crossdresser and a pre-hrt transsexual is vague at best I wonder how you tell the 2 apart.
If you can't tell the 2 apart, then I wonder how you would refer to one, as male or as female (in case of a male to female ts, or a male crossdresser)?
I did answer it, cant you read? lol there is no way to tell the difference, based on appearance, between a crossdresser and a pre estrogen transsexual.........unless you know them. now, I may be politically correct and address them with the proper pronoun based on their presentation but that's where it ends. And, I dont think in any way shape form or manner does that qualify me or any other post op as being elitist
because, some of the things that were said on this forum, were elitist. making claims that someone has to get srs to deserve any treatment or that someone who doesn't have the preop/postop status is an "other" is elitist. it's very offensive.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 12:45:04 AM
because, some of the things that were said on this forum, were elitist. making claims that someone has to get srs to deserve any treatment or that someone who doesn't have the preop/postop status is an "other" is elitist. it's very offensive.
naturally, I'm assuming that you are referring to TV and CD's when you mentioned someone who doesnt have the preop/postop status?
I rarely cease to be amazed at this forum's skills in equestrian resuscitation.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:44:12 AMthere is no way to tell the difference, based on appearance, between a crossdresser and a pre estrogen transsexual.........unless you know them. now, I may be politically correct and address them with the proper pronoun based on their presentation but that's where it ends.
Thanks, that is what I wanted to know. I was curious how you would address such a situation.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:44:12 AMAnd, I dont think in any way shape form or manner does that qualify me or any other post op as being elitist
I wasn't getting at this at all.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 12:45:04 AM
because, some of the things that were said on this forum, were elitist. making claims that someone has to get srs to deserve any treatment or that someone who doesn't have the preop/postop status is an "other" is elitist. it's very offensive.
but then again, when someone throws around that "elitist" term, couldnt that be deemed as offensive to some?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:47:19 AM
naturally, I'm assuming that you are referring to TV and CD's when you mentioned someone who doesnt have the preop/postop status?
I think FullMoon also means non-ops.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 12:48:00 AM
I rarely cease to be amazed at this forum's skills in equestrian resuscitation.
it's much better than talking about some of the other topics, wouldnt you agree? some really thought provoking conversation?
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 12:50:18 AM
I think FullMoon also means non-ops.
I dont include non ops in my thought process lol
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:51:27 AM
it's much better than talking about some of the other topics, wouldnt you agree? some really thought provoking conversation?
If by "thought provoking" you mean hashing out the exact same ideas over the exact same topic over and over again 100 different times, then I would agree that this thread is thought provoking.
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 12:50:18 AM
I think FullMoon also means non-ops.
i was trying to explain that what was said here before, is that if you don't have an intense desire to get srs or you are not post op, then you don't deserve treatment, and you are not really a woman, but "other." it's just gendering on the basis of genitalia. how common.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 12:48:00 AM
I rarely cease to be amazed at this forum's skills in equestrian resuscitation.
well, I am the chosen one! jk
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:52:50 AM
I dont include non ops in my thought process lol
I see this line of thinking in the same way I would a cis-person denouncing a post-op's identity, and I think this is where a lot of the friction comes from...
Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 12:56:41 AM
I see this line of thinking in the same way I would a cis-person denouncing a post-ops identity, and I think this is where a lot all of the friction comes from...
I fixed it for you...
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 12:53:42 AM
Why not?
non op, you're referring to someone who has no desire to transition and seek corrective surgery?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
non op, you're referring to someone who has no desire to transition and seek corrective surgery?
No, this also includes people who transition in every way *but* surgery.
Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 12:59:20 AM
No, this also includes people who transition in every way *but* surgery.
does this person want surgery?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
non op, you're referring to someone who has no desire to transition and seek corrective surgery?
If they're doing nothing, they're
non-transitioning, not non-operative. And yes, for various reasons (age, money, family, and religion being the primary ones) there are many trans people who are non-transitioning.
Non-op just means that for various reasons (money, medical complications, lack of desire for it) a person simply does not want surgery. That says nothing about whether they transition socially, hormonally, or legally. Would you lump this entire category under "crossdressers"?
Lastly, not everyone who gets it or intends to get it views it as corrective, either.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:02:31 AM
does this person want surgery?
No, not everyone wants surgery. That's where I see a difference between pre- and non-op.
since you're only concerned with genitals. what about someone who lives as a man, dresses as a man, no hormone replacement therapy, but just wants a vagina because he's sexually excited by it? if he became post op, but is still a man in every way, he is a woman, because vagina equals woman.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:08:13 AM
since you're only concerned with genitals. what about someone who lives as a man, dresses as a man, no hormone replacement therapy, but just wants a vagina because he's sexually excited by it? if he became post op, but is still a man in every way, he is a woman, because vagina equals woman.
if he wants a vagina because he's sexually excited by it? I highly doubt that any therapist in the world would provide a recommendation letter based on that criteria.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
if he wants a vagina because he's sexually excited by it? I highly doubt that any therapist in the world would provide a recommendation letter based on that criteria.
it doesn't matter.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
I highly doubt that any therapist in the world would provide a recommendation letter based on that criteria.
You'd be surprised how convincing people can be when they really want something, or the lengths they will go to achieve it....
Quote from: Cori on October 26, 2011, 01:07:22 AM
No, not everyone wants surgery. That's where I see a difference between pre- and non-op.
so, not wanting surgery......is this because of fear of going under the knife or something similar, or, is it because the person wishes to keep their male anatomy?
Either is a valid reason.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:12:29 AM
You'd be surprised how convincing people can be when they really want something, or the lengths they will go to achieve it....
then to me, it's nothing more than a fetish
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 01:15:17 AM
Either is a valid reason.
if somebody does not want surgery because of fear of going under, no money, etc etc that is one thing......but if somebody wants to keep their male anatomy, that kind of defeats the whole diagnosis of gender dsyphoria and yes, I'd have a hard time referring to that person as a woman.
for the most part, biologically speaking, every species on the planet is identified as male/female/hermaphrodite based on their reproductive organs and their genitals
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:15:40 AM
then to me, it's nothing more than a fetish
This is the answer to your question in the OP. Deciding for someone else whether they are legitimately trans is what others consider elitist.
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.
you're right, but the majority of it lies with what is between the ears.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:25:46 AM
you're right, but the majority of it lies with what is between the ears.
That would be a skull, the majority of the time.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.
those organs are characteristic of male species but it is certainly does not define one as one sex or the other
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:27:10 AM
That would be a skull, the majority of the time.
meaning?
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
the next thing is, did you forget about the prostate, cowper's gland, seminal vesicles, the xy chromosomes? i don't hear any of that being talked about. those pieces are no less male than the penis. srs is a privilige not everyone had. can you speak for them on their feelings? no, you can't.
like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:29:42 AM
like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not
just because you got it?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:27:18 AM
those organs are characteristic of male species but it is certainly does not define one as one sex or the other
many people outside this forum wouldn't agree. that's already been said earlier. you look like you're playing both sides of the fence to me. it's either black or white as far as i would be concerned if this thread has any value.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:27:48 AM
meaning?
Meaning that, biologically speaking, skull differentiation is a much better indicator of sex than looking inbetween someone's legs.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:31:11 AM
just because you got it?
it has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with the fact that i've completed my transition and it certainly is not an "elitist" point of view
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:33:19 AM
Meaning that, biologically speaking, skull differentiation is a much better indicator of sex than looking inbetween someone's legs.
i suppose that if that was the case, more people would select ffs instead of srs
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:29:42 AM
like i said, it boils down to whether they want surgery or not
By saying so , do you mean that according to you a non-op transwoman isn't a woman but a man?
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:35:41 AM
i suppose that if that was the case, more people would select ffs instead of srs
In all honesty I find it more important to be able live my life as a woman socially than to correct that unfeminine boy part between my legs that few people will ever see.
So yes, if ffs is vital to me for passing as a woman, I will take ffs over srs.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:33:48 AM
it has absolutely unequivocally nothing to do with the fact that i've completed my transition
This phrasing, coupled with the opinion you have expressed up to now, strongly implies that those who do not get surgery have not completed their transition.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:19:43 AM
...but if somebody wants to keep their male anatomy, that kind of defeats the whole diagnosis of gender dsyphoria...
"Dysphoria" is the condition of finding it hard to bear one's current state - in this case one's gender presentation. The official definition of gender dysphoria embraces anyone who finds their current gender presentation hard enough to bear that it affects their everyday life. The treatment for this depends on the nature of and triggers for the gender dysphoria - for some, therapy is enough to help them become less dysphoric - for some, change of outward appearance (clothes, makeup, hair etc.) is enough - for some, hormone therapy to change the body shape is enough - for some, only SRS (and a blend of the above) is enough.
But these are all recognised and appropriate treatments for different manifestations of gender dysphoria in different individuals.
If you consider gender dysphoria to be synonymous with the need for SRS, then you are not discussing gender dysphoria as defined by the healthcare community at large, you are using your own definition - and it will be hard to have a balanced discussion using that terminology.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 01:36:35 AM
This phrasing, coupled with the opinion you have expressed up to now, strongly implies that those who do not get surgery have not completed their transition.
i was going to say the phrasing now goes down to "because i say so." your's works too.
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 01:36:27 AM
By saying so , do you mean that according to you a non-op transwoman isn't a woman but a man?
defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes
are these opinions elitist? if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:40:21 AM
defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes
are these opinions elitist? if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist
i'm getting tired and bored of this, but i'll just conclude with the fact that you said "most of it is the brain." most of it is the brain and you have to get srs or desire it intensely do not mix to me. in my opinion, this thread has no real value.
Quote from: Padma on October 26, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
"Dysphoria" is the condition of finding it hard to bear one's current state - in this case one's gender presentation. The official definition of gender dysphoria embraces anyone who finds their current gender presentation hard enough to bear that it affects their everyday life. The treatment for this depends on the nature of and triggers for the gender dysphoria - for some, therapy is enough to help them become less dysphoric - for some, change of outward appearance (clothes, makeup, hair etc.) is enough - for some, hormone therapy to change the body shape is enough - for some, only SRS (and a blend of the above) is enough.
But these are all recognised and appropriate treatments for different manifestations of gender dysphoria in different individuals.
If you consider gender dysphoria to be synonymous with the need for SRS, then you are not discussing gender dysphoria as defined by the healthcare community at large, you are using your own definition - and it will be hard to have a balanced discussion using that terminology.
I'm pretty sure I've been very clear on my "opinions" lol
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:40:21 AM
defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes
are these opinions elitist? if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist
The large majority of the human population thinks we are mentally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.
That being said it surprises me how much value some transsexuals put in the reproductive organs in order to determine ones sex.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on October 26, 2011, 01:42:50 AM
those opinions play both side of the fence. someone could lie to you and say they are fearful just so they meet your approval.
my approval? seriously? i'm just the love child of aphrodite and zeus! lol
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 01:45:02 AM
The large majority of the human population thinks we are menatally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.
If anything, history has shown us that the majority of people are almost always WRONG. History books are just a long list of things that everyone has done wrong over the centuries.
Whether or not 99% of people are considered elitist has no bearing on whether or not they actually are elitist...
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:40:21 AM
defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes
are these opinions elitist? if thats the case then 99% of the human population would be considered elitist
99% of the population are not members of the trans community who have had SRS and then use it as a claim to authority on the topic. It is not the opinion alone that makes it elitist behavior. It is that the opinion places the speaker definitively on one side of the line, and others
the speaker considers unworthy on the other.
There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider
you a woman. Again, it's drawing a line that places them on one side, and you on the "unworthy" side.
What makes it elitist behavior is that you got to the other side of a line that has meaning
to you and then declared anyone not there yet to be less than you.
Quote from: Venus-Castina on October 26, 2011, 01:45:02 AM
The large majority of the human population thinks we are menatally ill, should be imprisoned or worse. So I don't think that is a good indicator.
That being said it surprises me how much value some transsexuals put in the reproductive organs in order to determine ones sex.
that's because we are!! lol my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 01:48:02 AM
There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider you a woman.
Yeah, everyone knows that SRS is just a cosmetic procedure. It's not a real vagina. There's no way that a MAN can ever become a woman.
Quote from: LifeInNeon on October 26, 2011, 01:48:02 AM
99% of the population are not members of the trans community who have had SRS and then use it as a claim to authority on the topic. It is not the opinion alone that makes it elitist behavior. It is that the opinion places the speaker definitively on one side of the line, and others the speaker considers unworthy on the other.
There's a large number of people who wouldn't even consider you a woman. Again, it's drawing a line that places them on one side, and you on the "unworthy" side.
What makes it elitist behavior is that you got to the other side of a line that has meaning to you and then declared anyone not there yet to be less than you.
I've thought the same way before my surgery......i certainly did not have a complete change of thought pattern just because I had surgery
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:49:56 AM
that's because we are!! lol my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol
Internalized transphobia at its finest. Ultimately, this is the root of the elitism.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:40:21 AM
defining nonop as someone who cannot afford surgery, is fearful of surgery, etc etc, then no
defining nonop as someone who has no intention, no desire, etc etc, then yes
Now I am thinking about it, I believe I have read a publication a few months ago by Swaab et al on research on the brains of deceased transsexuals. If I am not mistaken he found no difference between those who did "fully" transition and those who haven't for various reasons.
EDIT: Disregard that, I just grasped the publication and read that the sample size was too small to draw significant conclusions.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 01:49:56 AM
that's because we are!! lol my god, who in their right mind would want to jeopardize being terminated from employment, losing custody of children, being ridiculed by society in general, transforming a penis into a vagina or vice versa? lol
To elaborate further, everything you've listed here can be said about those who have pink hair and facial piercings.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 01:50:45 AM
Yeah, everyone knows that SRS is just a cosmetic procedure. It's not a real vagina. There's no way that a MAN can ever become a woman.
real or not real, natural or man made surely doesnt matter to me......all that matters is I have one, my body is congruent with my mind........I can sit down to pee, I can F*** in any position I wish, etc etc
I wonder if we have the same discussion 30 years from now, but about womb transplantations.
Quote from: Jamie Nicole on October 26, 2011, 02:00:19 AM
real or not real, natural or man made surely doesnt matter to me.
"To me" being the key phrase. I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people: the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.
For that matter, whether or not I have a penis doesn't matter much to me. Apparently, it does matter to you.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 02:15:34 AM
"To me" being the key phrase. I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people: the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.
I could give a F*** less what the people at wbc think! I highly doubt that you've followed any of my posts from several months ago before I came back to this site......I'm a woman that doesnt give a F*** what anybody says or thinks about me.......I'm gonna live my life as I want regardless of what others think
Quote from: VeryGnawty on October 26, 2011, 02:15:34 AM
"To me" being the key phrase. I assure you that it matters a great deal to other people: the Westboro Baptist Church, for example.
For that matter, whether or not I have a penis doesn't matter much to me. Apparently, it does matter to you.
I can assure you, that whatever is or isnt between your legs does not matter to me for I could care less. if you have no intentions of ever completing SRS because you want to keep your junk as is, then yes, I have a problem calling you or anyone else, a woman as well as inclusion in anti discrimination legislation. its my opinion and has nothing whatsoever to do with me being post op
I'm locking this thread - personal insults, and excluding specific groups from under the transgender umbrella, are a breach of the ToS.