Just as a warning, many of the things I will say might be seen as generalizations. Although I am aware that many trans men exist that are not as described, it feels as if there's more of, or I'm noticing more of the type discussed here...
I've been feeling a lot if stress lately in a lot of places. Work, my health, financial issues, and now trans men and "the community." I often see a strong white, masculine, sorta sexist type as the folks who are seen the most, or have recently come up a lot. The latest person that has been called out (somebody essentially said "you're saying messed up sexist and racist stuff") is somebody that is fairly well known. It bothers me that he is seen as representing me yet comes across as a huge a-hole.
It sucks because there are so few of us that when people see one of us acting a certain way it reflects more strongly on the rest of us than on most other groups, but the problem is really just with people and not particularly trans men. Sure its awful, but a good number of people are awful. Its just life.
I don't know what to tell you. that happens everywhere with every group of people. Every group of people has a few a-holes who get noticed and then other groups of people stereotype that group as all being a-holes. A big example is Muslims or anyone of Arabic decent, really. Other groups of people will stereotype them as terrorists.
I think education is key, so people can see past the few who got noticed, and NOT stereotype the whole rest of the group.
The educators and people in more "mainstream culture" are the kind of people that I just wrote about.
Quote from: Caseyy on November 11, 2011, 11:08:01 PM
I wonder if you're talking about someone who has the initials B.A. :P This person seems to match your description rather well.
I was wondering this as well. Assuming this is who you are talking about, I feel absolutely terrible being associated with him. He makes the rest of us look like jerks. Why, why, why would anyone ever think it is okay to pick on someone for being poor!? :-\ He says some really busted things to other trans people...
It's bad enough that I grind my teeth in my sleep. I don't need more reasons to clench my jaw.
Quote from: Nygeel on November 11, 2011, 10:27:03 PM
Just as a warning, many of the things I will say might be seen as generalizations. Although I am aware that many trans men exist that are not as described, it feels as if there's more of, or I'm noticing more of the type discussed here...
I've been feeling a lot if stress lately in a lot of places. Work, my health, financial issues, and now trans men and "the community." I often see a strong white, masculine, sorta sexist type as the folks who are seen the most, or have recently come up a lot. The latest person that has been called out (somebody essentially said "you're saying messed up sexist and racist stuff") is somebody that is fairly well known. It bothers me that he is seen as representing me yet comes across as a huge a-hole.
I havent hit the spot exacly as you decribed it, but its been annoying me that the most maculine/most pass able/steriotype guy,
often are seen as the big spot while the not so maculine/not passing/not steriotypical guys are left in the background.
for my kind of view it takes more corrage to be a guy and not so typical than to be a guy who are just like your suposed..
and its been annoying me as the trans media came up that people who are very typical and so got way more respect.
Vocal minority. Every group has theirs. Look at Christians, for example. I'm sure most of them don't want to be associated with the Westboro Baptist Church...
Quote from: Natkat on November 12, 2011, 05:36:43 PM
I havent hit the spot exacly as you decribed it, but its been annoying me that the most maculine/most pass able/steriotype guy,
often are seen as the big spot while the not so maculine/not passing/not steriotypical guys are left in the background.
for my kind of view it takes more corrage to be a guy and not so typical than to be a guy who are just like your suposed..
and its been annoying me as the trans media came up that people who are very typical and so got way more respect.
I understand how it feels that only the most socially acceptable trans males are spotlighted not just by the mainstream but the trans culture as well. However, I think it is a better situation than being represented by the 'least passable' members of your group.
Around the country, trans women are shown as, and subsequently recognized as, nothing more than extreme ->-bleeped-<-s with a 5'o-clock shadow.
Sin embargo, I have to agree that it definitely takes more courage to transition when you suspect that you can't pass/live outside of the mainstream.
Yeah I swear every time I open my mouth outside of the internet I'm expected to speak the wisdom and common knowledge of the entire trans community. It drives me crazy.
But then in the trans community, I'm sometimes a rarity for being gay or poor or a parent, and my opinions from those perspectives seem to get a little too generalized to other people in those groups, too.
I don't know what transmen you are talking about, but you aren't alone in frustration with getting lumped in with anyone else who happens to be in your demographic.
Quote from: Felix on November 12, 2011, 09:25:37 PM
But then in the trans community, I'm sometimes a rarity for being... poor .....
I think maybe all those successful, cultured and handsome trans men should pick up a trans woman wife... or a few.
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 12, 2011, 09:30:49 PM
I think maybe all those successful, cultured and handsome trans men should pick up a trans woman wife... or a few.
What the-?
Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 10:03:42 PM
What the-?
They're aren't enough hunks for all of us trans ladies.
Some compromises might have to be made. ;)
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 12, 2011, 10:13:36 PM
They're aren't enough hunks for all of us trans ladies.
Some compromises might have to be made. ;)
Are you implying that you're going to compromise by instead of dating "hunky" cis men you'll date "hunky" trans men?
Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 10:15:47 PM
Are you implying that you're going to compromise by instead of dating "hunky" cis men you'll date "hunky" trans men?
No, no of course not. I'm definitely into any man, provided he is cultured, educated, generous, blah, blah, blah.
Felix stated that it was rare that he was both poor and a trans person.
If it really is to rare to be trans and poor, I want one of the those numerous successful trans men to sweep me off my feet and provide me for haha.
Except there are not enough rich trans men to go around, so us trans girls might have to share.
Excuse me, I didn't mean to offend. It was just a lame joke. (One of many that have sputtered from my brain and fell out of my mouth.
i think i might know who you are talking about and he pisses me off too. also i really dont like some other guys, and pretty much all trans characters in TV or movies piss me off.
Quote from: anibioman on November 13, 2011, 12:09:23 AM
i think i might know who you are talking about and he pisses me off too. also i really dont like some other guys, and pretty much all trans characters in TV or movies piss me off.
I know that it's an open secret around here- but can someone clue a hapless girl in?
I can't clue anybody in, I'm so out of the loop in most discussions.
I will say that most transmen I've known have been middle or upper class, and pretty well financially stable. I think having resources makes it safer and saner to come out of the closet and transition.
Quote from: Caseyy on November 13, 2011, 12:19:53 AM
Same here.
...Wait, there are trans characters in television?
I've only ever seen the TV with a beard who happens to be a serial killer.
Quote from: Guantanamera on November 12, 2011, 09:30:49 PM
I think maybe all those successful, cultured and handsome trans men should pick up a trans woman wife... or a few.
LOL,
well,
im happy they put up some good exempels, that transgenders can be happy and succesfull
but somethimes the good exempels are just "what fits of the expectations and what people wanna see" which I find wrong.
I dont see myself as a bad exempel,
but since I am a very atypical guy, not straight, not so maculine then people prefern someone who are straight and manly to be in the spotlight.
and if all what the "normal people" only are those exempels then the transgender people who dosent fit the steryotypes gets alot of prejugding.
--
I bet another factore is money, because people like to see someone who are either really misserable or really cool,
the stage where people arejust casual dosent really catch peoples interest.
Quote from: Caseyy on November 11, 2011, 11:08:01 PM
I wonder if you're talking about someone who has the initials B.A. :P This person seems to match your description rather well.
I agree entirely. I think that transmen are not very well represented. Not just in mainstream, but within our own communities. Now, not that there is anything wrong with preferring things that are coded "masculine", but those kinds of guys tend to be hailed within our communities. White, (can't make a coherent comment on class right now), "masculine"-oriented, straight, thin, and definitely able-bodied. Again, not that there is anything wrong with being that way, but it's a problem when a certain type of transman is taken more seriously and is well-liked and respected when guys that don't fit the mold.
It definitely made my path to self-acceptance more difficult. I'm not thin, which I'm trying to change but it is a slow process. I'm pre-T and likely will be for a while, I don't pass worth ->-bleeped-<-. I'm gentle, kind, empathetic, which can make me seem more feminine in the eyes of others. I guess what helped me become less stressed was realizing that I LIKE those qualities about myself. I don't want to change them, especially being knd and emotionally tuned in. I may be trying to lose weight (health), but I don't hate myself for being fat or think there's something "wrong" with me for not being muscular and whatnot. And I may not pass (yet), but I look in the mirror and I see a person with a lot of attractive and unique features.
It took me a while to get there though, and I'm with you - we definitely need more diverse representation.
Just curious, but how do you reckon that Buck Angel fits the description, other then him being white?
As Buck Angel is one of the least sexist people in the Community, and also one of the least prejudicul individuals, I would really like to know.
In fact, more would
need to be like Buck.
Yeah yeah, I know, he is in porn, a Trans-politicaly mega-forbidden territory as it makes everyone think that all T-people are in porn, or however the "logic" goes, but if anything, in fact, he rather proves that T-people working with porn is not just sexobjects but are just like other people and can also be really bright, smart, funny and intelligent.
Quote from: Bishounen on November 13, 2011, 11:20:25 AM
Just curious, but how do you reckon that Buck Angel fits the description, other then him being white?
As Buck Angel is one of the least sexist people in the Community, and also one of the least prejudicul individuals, I would really like to know.
In fact, more would need to be like Buck.
Yeah yeah, I know, he is in porn, a Trans-politicaly mega-forbidden territory as it makes everyone think that all T-people are in porn, or however the "logic" goes, but if anything, in fact, he rather proves that T-people working with porn is not just sexobjects but are just like other people and can also be really bright, smart, funny and intelligent.
No, Buck Angel is who I was talking about based on a series of tweets and discussions on tumblr.
http://moononwaters.tumblr.com/post/12653309554/something-interesting-just-happened (http://moononwaters.tumblr.com/post/12653309554/something-interesting-just-happened)
He said something about bottom surgery being self mutilation but went back and deleted it...some of that is quoted here...
http://environmint.tumblr.com/post/12489999013/buck-angel-buck-why-dont-you-get-a-penis (http://environmint.tumblr.com/post/12489999013/buck-angel-buck-why-dont-you-get-a-penis)
There's also his support for Dan Savage and lack of recognizeg that Savage messed up.
http://the->-bleeped-<-mentality.tumblr.com/post/12619339479/cassket-uh-buck-angel-what-the-->-bleeped-<- (http://the->-bleeped-<-mentality.tumblr.com/post/12619339479/cassket-uh-buck-angel-what-the--%3E-bleeped-%3C-)
And this...
http://note-a-bear.tumblr.com/post/12659822599/responding-to-buck-angel (http://note-a-bear.tumblr.com/post/12659822599/responding-to-buck-angel)
Quote from: Nygeel on November 13, 2011, 11:40:10 AM
No, Buck Angel is who I was talking about based on a series of tweets and discussions on tumblr.
http://moononwaters.tumblr.com/post/12653309554/something-interesting-just-happened (http://moononwaters.tumblr.com/post/12653309554/something-interesting-just-happened)
He said something about bottom surgery being self mutilation but went back and deleted it...some of that is quoted here...
http://environmint.tumblr.com/post/12489999013/buck-angel-buck-why-dont-you-get-a-penis (http://environmint.tumblr.com/post/12489999013/buck-angel-buck-why-dont-you-get-a-penis)
There's also his support for Dan Savage and lack of recognizeg that Savage messed up.
http://the->-bleeped-<-mentality.tumblr.com/post/12619339479/cassket-uh-buck-angel-what-the-<not allowed> (http://the->-bleeped-<-mentality.tumblr.com/post/12619339479/cassket-uh-buck-angel-what-the-<not%20allowed>)
And this...
http://note-a-bear.tumblr.com/post/12659822599/responding-to-buck-angel (http://note-a-bear.tumblr.com/post/12659822599/responding-to-buck-angel)
Just looks like the ordinary community-fights to me, but hardly something outrageuos.
Regarding his thoughts of surgery as "selfmutilation", I don't know how he worded it and during what circumstances he said it, but, it could easily had been him referring to how he would view such surgery being done on
him, out of his own perspective on the matter.
I do know that he is very proud of his female genitals and have also repeatedly explained that he would not have them altered for anything in the World, as they are part of him, works perfectly, and, perhaps most importantly, he don't need a phallus to be a man.
So for a person with this view on surgery on the
own self, it would indeed be mutilation, so to speak, but ofcourse not necasserily for
others, just on him.
One of the things I had an issue with, however, when reading through the linked pages, was that people in the T-community wants to tell him how to be, in order to be a "publical frontperson of the T-community", which I find quite insulting, actually.
After all, to Buck, he is foremost Buck, not a political sockpuppet for others opinions.
Yes, I do agree that being a spokesperson also comes with a big responsibility, but I still find it very rude to try to dictate how he needs to be, act and say.
However, coming to think about it, I can actually atest that I a few times in various discussions, have found him to be a bit rude himselves, in fact. However, I do know what the cause of it is, and it is sadly enough not anything unique amongst transpersons.
The reason is bad past-experiences with people and Humanity in general, which in time causes the individual in question to be constantly "on the edge" and lash out with sharp comments even to things that was not even meant as insulting, but things that the T-person
thought was meant as such.
Very tragic, but nonetheless sadly far from anything unusual.
The only thing one can do as an bystander if viewing such crossfire, is to try and act as a sort of "interpretator" and explain the missunderstandings for those involved. It usually helps, actually.
This is what he said in one of the links i posted about a picture of somebody's bottom surgery: "they
should be hurt by the photo it is not ok to want that:) I am teaching people to love their bodies not mutilate them"
That is clearly not talking about himself.
His porn really chalenged some of my preconcieved notions.
He opened my eyes that it is possible to be trans and still have sex with ones birth gender genitals and not have that somehow disprove or invalidate your expressed gender.
There is no way I can watch that man have sex and associate what he is doing as a female sex act regardless of what his is physicaly doing.
By seeing him in 'action' it really set my mind at ease in many ways.
I even told him so and he responded that he was very happy that I was able to come to terms with my sexuality because of his porn.
I think he is cool.
To share my own feelings, I think there is an image forced out there of what it means to be trans by the media. In the US at least, every news company in the country is owned by just a few mega-corporations. (Time Warner/Disney/etc.) I do not enjoy watching TV shows or movies and seeing the same portrayal of gays, lesbians, trans, Jews, and I keep going.
I don't know enough about Buck Angel to make a call on him, but I will be doing some reading after I finish here. I do know that I was equated to him when I came out to a friend and that was a little awkward. At the time I had no idea who he was. But, I think the portrayals of trans folk is hurt by the fact that a lot of us go through really rough times and we put a lot of effort into transitioing. Afterwards many of them just want to live happy, peaceful lives.
I do think that transpeople are portrayed pretty horribly, especially by some news and media companies. Those portrayals are not helped by people bickering in our community and putting eachother down.