This is not directed an anyone here. It was prompted by a movie I saw last night. It included Pagans, Christians and Jews. And there was a lot of fighting and killing over which faith was the only faith.
We see this with other faiths too. All these religions up in arms, often in direct confrontation with one another, fighting over who worships the right god, over which holy books should be followed, over who is the real savior. It seems to me the epitome of insanity.
Why does it matter so much? What is it about my faith that makes you so offended or fearful? Why do you feel a need to pressure me into converting to your faith? To challenge me? To go to war with me? To kill me? Isn't it enough I wish to live in peace with you? That I cause you no harm? Why do I have to believe in the same god as you? How does me having different beliefs harm you?
I don't get it. Can anyone here explain this?
It matters because it IS that persons belief. Typically when you believe in a "religious system" it has to be correct (and the only correct one) or your "faith" is no longer valid.
Does it mean you need to kill those who do not agree, No.
I personally believe it is a mixture of many different issues that has people believing this way: you have insecurities, pride of your specific religion, an unwavering truth that you really believe your God is the only way, a scornful history with another religion that creates hostility, etc.
There are obviously more reasons and explanations of why people feel that their faith has to be the right one. There are also other people, while they do not believe their religion is the "right one," they will freely harass other religions. It happens all the time. As I mentioned in another post, I have seen Christians put down Pagans and I have seen Pagans put down Christians. I have seen Jews put down Muslims and I have seen Muslims put down Jews. I have seen Atheists put down people who believe in God and vice versa. I think being in Seminary, I have seen it all.
It would be nice to see interfaith respect but I don't think they will happen anytime soon.
Hi Julie,
I'm sorry if I can't answer your question. Because your beliefs are your own and that doesn't matter, offend or make me fearful of you. I certainly do not want to convert you to my faith, it may be in direct contradiction to yours. My faith is an ongoing journey and I'm simply not in a position to challenge yours. I don't know it all.
As for going to war or wanting to kill you for yours. No thank you. I respect yours too much for that. After all; I may be wrong. I have been known to be wrong in the past. And I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility of leading you astray.
I'd love to live in peace with you, and hope I do. So far you haven't harmed me and you don't have to believe in the same God as me. Although He may be the same. I don't know. Your different beliefs don't harm me at all. In fact they may help me in my journey. You just never know. I've had people from other disciplines of engineering tell me things I didn't know that have helped me in my discipline of engineering.
I understand what you are saying. But wouldn't it be nice if we all respected each others opinion and went about living our own lives and not trying to live someone elses for them? Arrr to dream!!
Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa huggs
Catherine
I may be mistaken, but I think the majority of religious warfare has been conducted exclusively within the Abrahamic religions, which is especially hilarious considering they were all developed from one another. By hilarious, I mean terrible and tragic, but that's how it goes, right?
As far as people insulting each others' religious views, it reminds me of the nonsense argument that can be found on the Wikipedia discussion page for the song Money by Pink Floyd. A whole lot of people who don't begin to understand music kept yelling at each other and insulting each other, saying why they were right and other people were wrong, when real musicians would know instantaneously that the debate in question was completely irrelevant and nobody was right or wrong. This debate has gone on for 6 years so far and despite clear statements about how music works from myself and another person, people still insist that they are "right" in the sections devoted to fighting.
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 08, 2011, 02:29:23 PM
I may be mistaken, but I think the majority of religious warfare has been conducted exclusively within the Abrahamic religions, which is especially hilarious considering they were all developed from one another. By hilarious, I mean terrible and tragic, but that's how it goes, right?
There were just as many wars waged by Pagan leaders as well.
Babylonian Empire, Assyrian Empires, the Egyptian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the fighting under a patron God or Goddess in the South America regions, etc etc.
So wars had not be committed exclusively within the Abrahamic religions. In the Middle ages and during the renaissance it was exclusive in Europe plus the current jihad issues in the Middle East. But other than that, throughout the world and ages it was not exclusively Abrahamic.
Almost every religion out there has been guilty for taking a life in some God(s)' name
I'd say that it's because faith is about revealed Truth - a central truth bestowed to humanity and so only one group can have that central truth.
Also, I'd say that most of those who fought 'for religion' were fought for personal and political reasons.
Annah - I'm not so sure about those empires' attempts to conquer being considered religious warfare, but I suppose that would probably level the historical playing field. However, there's so much prehistoric time that various tribes with various Gods would almost certainly have comprised the vast majority of warfare.
As far as lives being taken in general, yeah, I think plenty of people have died through various peoples' interpretations of various holy texts.
Regardless, let's not forget that war is an important social construct to gather those who would kill and face them off against those who would kill. If you've got groups so full of bloodlust that they would do so with texts aimed at understanding spirituality as their motives, all the better to see them gone.
Yes, Julie. It is hard to find the right one faith to believe in. I am a Christian, but the mainline denominations are either too rigid or their mission charters are too vague. I am not talking about transgender inclusion. Another is the change of the Sabbath to Sunday. The main reason of that the sun worshipers used Sunday as their day and the change was to keep them from their places of worship on that day with the excuse of "Jesus arose on that day of the week". Ironically, that's where we get the name for that day.
Joelene
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Why I don't give any 'god-centric' religion the time of day..."Every religion has a group of people who swear that what they preach is the truth and what everyone else preaches is false. Therefore, all religions cancel each other out !"
* However in saying this, I do respect the rights of a person to hold a belief in a god [just so long as it's a nice friendly, helpful god]... ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Just do what most people do and that's ask: Is my faith popular? One of my favorite college proffs used to say: A cult is just an unpopular church, and a church is just a popular cult.
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 08, 2011, 04:08:22 PM
Annah - I'm not so sure about those empires' attempts to conquer being considered religious warfare, but I suppose that would probably level the historical playing field. However, there's so much prehistoric time that various tribes with various Gods would almost certainly have comprised the vast majority of warfare.
Most of the empirical conquests in ancient civilizations had been motivated by their desire to spread their religion and their power to neighboring civilizations. The Assyrians, Babylonians, and Egyptians cultures highly regarded their faith as a driving force behind any attack. If the battle was won it was proof that their God had wanted it to be so and it was proof that their God was more powerful than the defeated nations' Gods. If they lost the war, then they saw it as a time of deep reflection and some type of wrong doing they had done to warrant the defeat.
QuoteAs far as lives being taken in general, yeah, I think plenty of people have died through various peoples' interpretations of various holy texts.
Regardless, let's not forget that war is an important social construct to gather those who would kill and face them off against those who would kill. If you've got groups so full of bloodlust that they would do so with texts aimed at understanding spirituality as their motives, all the better to see them gone.
It happens in every religion. With religion you can go three ways:
1. Piousness and charity (as many religious figures had "preached" such as Jesus, the Buddha, etc)
2. Complacency (they worship theirs and others worship their own where no interference occurs)
3. Warfare (as an attempt to spread their religion through forceful means)
It happens everywhere and not just the Abrahamic ones. I just wanted to point that out.
If the battle was won it was proof that their God had wanted it to be so and it was proof that their God was more powerful than the defeated nations' Gods. If they lost the war, then they saw it as a time of deep reflection and some type of wrong doing they had done to warrant the defeat.
In one of the classic Greek tragedies a king had to sacrifice a virgin to insure a great military victory over their foes. To make victory a sure thing he chose his daughter. They lost and everyone blamed the gods for not favoring them. I always figured that the more obvious answer was that he was mistaken about his daughter.
I understand why someone would say theirs is the right religion for them, personally and individually. But what I'm asking is why a person feels the need to convert another to their faith, pressure another into believing in their faith, cause physical harm to another who does not accept their faith, kill another who refuses to convert to their faith, or assemble with others of their faith and wage war on those of another faith just because the other faith won't convert to their faith?
Why is is so important someone else believes in the same religious tenets as you? Why can't these people just accept each person has their own religious beliefs and leave it at that?
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 09, 2011, 03:06:12 PM
Why can't these people just accept each person has their own religious beliefs and leave it at that?
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Because they're mentally unbalanced nutjobs and I'm being serious when I say this....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Annah on December 08, 2011, 03:35:34 PM
There were just as many wars waged by Pagan leaders as well.
Babylonian Empire, Assyrian Empires, the Egyptian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, the fighting under a patron God or Goddess in the South America regions, etc etc.
So wars had not be committed exclusively within the Abrahamic religions. In the Middle ages and during the renaissance it was exclusive in Europe plus the current jihad issues in the Middle East. But other than that, throughout the world and ages it was not exclusively Abrahamic.
Almost every religion out there has been guilty for taking a life in some God(s)' name
I beg to disagree, all pre christians cultures and civilizations were very tolerant of other people religion. The war of antiquity were all about resoruces (money) not about religion. The Jews have never persecuted Christians or muslims. The religion wars have been waged by Christians against Christians, Muslims against Muslims, and Christians against Muslims. In Asia Hinduist have gotten in wars with both Christians and Muslims.
The point the JM makes is that mostly Christians have this so self-rightous postions, that they and they alone are the bearers of the truth, the basic command of their religion is to proselytize, it is a mandate conversions. Jews do not proselytize.
I agree with you JM, I personally do not care who believes what, it is only when they are trying to "push" their beliefs that we have a problem.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 06:16:25 PM
I beg to disagree, all pre christians cultures and civilizations were very tolerant of other people religion. The war of antiquity were all about resoruces (money) not about religion.
The ancient wars were not just about money. It was also fueled by religion and their desire for conquest was religious, cultural, and monetary reasons.
QuoteThe Jews have never persecuted Christians or muslims.
True, but their numbers were also small and their people were in diaspora. However, the Jews were just as guilty; do not mistake that. The Jews were responsible were countless acts of Genocide in many regions and the book of Joshua chronicles most of it. Even if the acts are not historically accurate, the fact that they added it into their holy books speaks volumes. And this isn't me being anti Semitic. I am Jew by blood. I know very well the horrors the Jews had done and the horrors that had befallen them.
Every religion has been responsible for acts of atrocity. Every single one. Even the Native Americans fought and killed men, women, and children in tribal conquests and the eating of their opponents hearts in order to gain their strengths and their soul was commonplace.
QuoteThe religion wars have been waged by Christians against Christians, Muslims against Muslims, and Christians against Muslims. In Asia Hinduist have gotten in wars with both Christians and Muslims.
Don't forget the Muslim conquest of Spain where their expansion was halted by Charles the Hammer.
QuoteThe point the JM makes is that mostly Christians have this so self-rightous postions, that they and they alone are the bearers of the truth, the basic command of their religion is to proselytize, it is a mandate conversions. Jews do not proselytize.
True, Jews do not proselytize and neither do some other religions; however, when the Jews were a considerable force they never proselytize....they killed everyone...and the ones they did not kill they were shunned (the Samaritans being one example). You cannot dismiss the fact that all religions have been guilty of warfare and this is my point.
Quote from: Annah on December 09, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
The ancient wars were not just about money. It was also fueled by religion and their desire for conquest was religious, cultural, and monetary reasons.
True, but their numbers were also small and their people were in diaspora. However, the Jews were just as guilty; do not mistake that. The Jews were responsible were countless acts of Genocide in many regions and the book of Joshua chronicles most of it. Even if the acts are not historically accurate, the fact that they added it into their holy books speaks volumes. And this isn't me being anti Semitic. I am Jew by blood. I know very well the horrors the Jews had done and the horrors that had befallen them.
Every religion has been responsible for acts of atrocity. Every single one. Even the Native Americans fought and killed men, women, and children in tribal conquests and the eating of their opponents hearts in order to gain their strengths and their soul was commonplace.
Don't forget the Muslim conquest of Spain where their expansion was halted by Charles the Hammer.
True, Jews do not proselytize and neither do some other religions; however, when the Jews were a considerable force they never proselytize....they killed everyone...and the ones they did not kill they were shunned (the Samaritans being one example). You cannot dismiss the fact that all religions have been guilty of warfare and this is my point.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Do you mean in the name of religion or members of a religion ? There's a big difference, for example if you see Buddhism as a 'religion' like many in the West do, then the religion itself has NEVER been involved in any kind of atrocity... And if one refers to the second world war and the Japanese, again it was not the Buddhist religion that went to war- *
The Japanese people went to war for the 'Emperor' whom many believed to be a living god ...Plus one must remember in Japan there are also followers of animist religions - Shinto comes to mind...
Metta Zenda :)
JMO but religion and politics have been linked for ever and politicians have used religious belief to support their ambition. You may not motivate the average Joe or Jill to go to war about the price of whatever or access to trade routes but if you convince them that people are blasphemous against their God belief well they go hell for leather. Propaganda isn't new. Just the adverts change.
It is happening now.
Watch it
Cindy
The awareness of higher spiritual plains seems to be innate in humans. This is evident because it affects every human culture and seems to have always done so. Moreover, inspite of the numerous instances where once powerful religious groups have been utterly discreditied, such as the Reformation, where the singular religious organisation soiled itself from the sale of indulgences, individuals and communities continue to pursue a spiritual quest.
One of the most significant of recent times seems to be the expanding aethist movement. Inspite of their claims, they are a religious movement in that they are based upon a system of belief and personal faith.
Most religions, possibly all, base their claims to preminance upon their predictions of general disaster, if they are ignored. Moreover, they all appear to be based upon a hierarchy, formal or otherwise, plus systems of confirmation, affirmation, identity and submission.
Islam for example, it is largely based upon their general manipulation of persecution as a tool of social management. Muslims are raised, from an early age, to see themselves as persecuted by an uncaring world. The creation and manipulation of the Palestine issue for example. It allows leaders to behave in almost any way they choose, as evident by the Saudis claiming that anyone who defies them is defying their god!
Christianity is a good example of a contrived religious group, A purely political creation, manipulated and sustained by catering to the fears eminating from the innate spiritual awareness that afflicts all humans, like a terminal disease. This is emphasised by the various schisms which have each created alternate power bases but continuing, essentialy the same message, acceptance of slavery. ie Nietzsche.
Religion exists for its own sake. It is and always will be, a political tool, to manipulate and cajole. Wars in the name of god. Payment for god.
As each new religion is established, only one thing is and will be certain. That those not submitting to the will, as expressed by the leaders, paying dues to the leaders, dividing themselves from all non-adherients will be opposed.
Hence, each religion is correct. In the same way that a boiled egg should be broken from the large side. (or is it the smaller?)
I hope you are not a Big Ender (Little Enders Unite!)
Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 04:53:54 PM
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Because they're mentally unbalanced nutjobs and I'm being serious when I say this....
Metta Zenda :)
So you're saying maybe this condition belongs in the DSM?
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
So you're saying maybe this condition belongs in the DSM?
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Most definately ! Let's face it who in their 'right' mind would go out of their way to kill people, believing that a 'being' whose existence can not be proved, wants/orders they to do it...
::) Yes definately a case for the 'mental health professional' one who specialises in 'schizophrenia' ! ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Oh, I'm not going to stop with killing - I think a lot of basic/general religious stuff should be in the DSM.
Julie,
I cannot speak for others as the mess of so-called christianity is far from being Christianity.
For me my faith is very important as according to my beliefs I have only one chance to get it right. After that I answer for what I believed and how I lived. Then comes eternity where it is far to long to be wrong. The idea of flames continually burning me as I fall endlessly and worms covering my face is just too fearful for me to take salvation without care.
Also, I know some wait to see miracles to believe like doubting Thomas.
I have seen the miracles because I believe. They verify my faith just as written and after believing and seeing I find it foolish for me to turn back.
The Lord has been too good to me all these years.
I freely admit I don't deserve it but am thankful for it.
I do not believe in trying to convert others beyond what the scriptures say. That is that Jesus said the fields were white already to harvest and that the parts of the Lord's body were written in the Book of Life before we ever were born. Those whom are meant to hear will hear when Christians do not deny the Lord or hide their faith.
I do not believe in killing either for the faith. The Lord said his kingdom was not of this world. If it was his servants would fight. Since it is not of this world we are supposed to be as David said strangers and pilgrims in this world.
As written Come out from among them and be separate. Not teaching people to covet the world we are supposed to be willing to forsake.
But that does not bring in tithes and offerings. Not popular.
From what I read the letters of the new testament were to show how the church should live. Not the non-believing folk outside the faith.
In conclusion that is why my faith is important to me and how I feel about trying to convert outsiders.
The Spirit of God will lead those whom are written in the Book of Life to repentance and then lead them to a church where they can grow in their faith. The same Spirit will verify their faith with signs following.
No need to fight or kill.
Also, I know some wait to see miracles to believe like doubting Thomas
Thomas made sainthood despite the doubt.
I like what this priest has to say...
Priest Says Hell Is Fake And Religion Is About Control (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYPmGKzFYOw#)
Quote from: Del on December 10, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
Julie,
I cannot speak for others as the mess of so-called christianity is far from being Christianity.
No need to fight or kill.
Kia Ora Del,
::) I've read some of your posts and respect your peaceful position and 'harmless' beliefs...However how would you describe the 'mental stability' of those who believe killing others is justified -and that their god would approve of it ?
::) Personally, out of compassion [and if I could] I would have them sanctioned/sectioned and made to undergo a psychiatric assessment [ a similar assessment to what many of us here had/have to go through-to prove our sanity ]...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 02:24:03 PM
Kia Ora Del,
::) I've read some of your post and respect your peaceful - harmless beliefs...However how would you describe the 'mental stability' of those who believe killing others is justified -and that their god would approve of it ?
::) Personally, out of compassion [and if I could] I would have them sanctioned/sectioned and made to undergo a psychiatric assessment [ a similar assessment to what many of us here had/have to go through-to prove our sanity so to speak]...
Metta Zenda :)
I would have to add the need to cause harm, physical or otherwise, the need to pressure others, the whole going out and converting process. None of that should be socially acceptable. Imagine sending out throngs of people in an attempt to convert Packer fans into Bears fans. Of course we laugh at that but isn't it the same as trying to convert people to your faith?
BTW, the movie that prompted this line of thought was "Agora." It's a Hollywood adaptation about Hyaptia of Alexandria, the female Roman philosopher, mathematician, scholar and teacher. Yes, a woman actually teaching men. According to Socrates Scholasticus, Cyril, the Christian leader of Alexandria at the time, was jealous of the popularity and respect she enjoyed. The Roman prefect Orestes, often sought her out for counsel. Orestes had converted to christianity, Hypatia refused. Finally a band of christian thugs brutally tortured and murdered her.
"...it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them."Socrates Scholasticus (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/hypatia.asp)
While the Pagans had no problem with the position Hypatia had earned in Alexandria, the Christians did. And they responded by brutally murdering her.
That someone died for refusing to convert to christianity didn't surprise me. The movie was more a reminder of just how misogynistic christianity is. And the brutality... I just can't see how anyone could do the things they did and say they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Zenda, you're right, this is a mental disorder.
Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 11:38:26 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Do you mean in the name of religion or members of a religion ? There's a big difference, for example if you see Buddhism as a 'religion' like many in the West do, then the religion itself has NEVER been involved in any kind of atrocity... And if one refers to the second world war and the Japanese, again it was not the Buddhist religion that went to war- * The Japanese people went to war for the 'Emperor' whom many believed to be a living god ...Plus one must remember in Japan there are also followers of animist religions - Shinto comes to mind...
Metta Zenda :)
I would say both. In every religion people killed that were in a religion and also in the name of a particular religion. Buddhism was also part of my "every religion that has killed or waged war."
For example, Buddhist astrologers had 500 men, women and children killed and buried in order that their Capitol be saved. During the British occupation of that region, the practice of buddhist related sacrifices were put to a stop.
Records of Buddhist related sacrifices can be seen all the way up to 1850.
Quote from: Del on December 10, 2011, 01:46:21 PM
In conclusion that is why my faith is important to me and how I feel about trying to convert outsiders.
The Spirit of God will lead those whom are written in the Book of Life to repentance and then lead them to a church where they can grow in their faith. The same Spirit will verify their faith with signs following.
No need to fight or kill.
So do you believe those that reject Jesus as the Son of God are going to hell?
That's the part the rubs me raw when it comes to some people in Christianity. It's like "it's our way or the highway." Then some will say "I still love and care for you but if you die not knowing Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will be either wiped out of existence or sent to hell.
This is one of the main reasons why I went to progressive Christianity. I couldn't stand it when people "tried to save souls."
The Bible says "For God so loves the WORLD." Not "For God so loves those who sent a telepathic link of saying 'ok I believe in you now'."
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 02:08:14 PM
I like what this priest has to say...
Priest Says Hell Is Fake And Religion Is About Control (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYPmGKzFYOw#)
That's John Shelby Spong.
I love that man. I had coffee with him five years ago and I am trying to get him to go a lecture at my Seminary.
You should read his books. They are mind blowing and his ideas are dead on.
Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 05:03:14 PM
So do you believe those that reject Jesus as the Son of God are going to hell?
I grew up in a Catholic environment but the first time I heard
if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God you won't be saved I was in my 30's. My mom told me after she joined a born again cult. Then I asked her, "What if Jesus was just a man who man made into a deity?" Naturally, she was offended just by the thought. I think she also told me I could go to hell for even thinking that. It reminded me of the political leaders through history who jailed, tortured and/or executed anyone who spoke against them.
For me, any faith that encouraged you to say to others
you will go to hell if you don't believe what I do isn't a faith sanctioned by god. At least not the being I grew up learning about. It baffled me as to how anyone could be so sure of something there was no way to be sure about. And it upset me that anyone would think they had a duty to convert someone else to their faith.
The entire concept of "I need you to believe what I believe" seems borne out of insecurity. When someone is secure in their beliefs you don't see them out there actively and aggressively campaigning to get others to believe what they do, unless there is personal gain attached. And when that campaign includes causing harm to others, no society should ever condone it, no exceptions.
I have asked these questions many times in my life. I have yet to hear a logical response.
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 12:41:07 PM
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Most definately !Let's face it who in their 'right' mind would go out of their way to kill people, believing that a 'being' whose existence can not be proved, wants/orders they to do it...[/b]
::) Yes definately a case for the 'mental health professional' one who specialises in 'schizophrenia' ! ;)
Metta Zenda :)
You mean George Bush?
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 02:08:14 PM
I like what this priest has to say...
Priest Says Hell Is Fake And Religion Is About Control (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYPmGKzFYOw#)
He speaks like true followr of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's school of theology
What exactly would be the value of having a faith that is 'the wrong one'?
Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 04:56:47 PM
I would say both. In every religion people killed that were in a religion and also in the name of a particular religion. Buddhism was also part of my "every religion that has killed or waged war."
For example, Buddhist astrologers had 500 men, women and children killed and buried in order that their Capitol be saved. During the British occupation of that region, the practice of buddhist related sacrifices were put to a stop.
Records of Buddhist related sacrifices can be seen all the way up to 1850.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Interesting points, and I couldn't agree with you more in regards to human behaviour/nature... However[ there's always an 'however'] unlike other religions/belief systems, nowhere in Buddhist scripture does it advocate war, violence, killing or an 'eye for an eye' mentality ...
::) The word Buddha in simple layman's terms means 'awaken' and such an awaken mind is free from the bonds of Samsara...[Therefore every Buddhist's goal is to achieve Nivana-an awaken mind]... So for a person who calls themselves a follower of the Buddha's teaching [The Dharma] to take up arms and kill others is in no way doing this in the name of the 'Buddha' [Buddhism], but their actions are a by-product of their cultural upbringing/beliefs...
::) For many countries that had adopted Buddhism as a national belief system, much of their ancestral cultural beliefs were incorporated with the Buddha's teaching, hence polluting the purity of the Dharma...
So anything that goes against the 5 basic precepts for lay Buddhists [see below]
is not done in the name of Buddhism...But through cultural influence!
The 5 precepts [that Buddhist lay-people are meant to try and up hold] in other word to reframe from Stealing –
Killing – Intoxicants-Lying-Sexual misconduct...[SKILS]...
::) Humans being humans can at times be easily manipulated and lead, ever those who call themselves Buddhists-Buddhists are human and so was the Buddha[be it a somewhat more 'enlighten' one]...
::) Hate begets hate...Violence begets violence...Do no harm is what the Buddha taught !
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: spacial on December 10, 2011, 06:34:03 PM
You mean George Bush?
Kia Ora,
::) When it comes to George Bush Spacial, I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it. ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 10, 2011, 03:02:34 PM
I would have to add the need to cause harm, physical or otherwise, the need to pressure others, the whole going out and converting process. None of that should be socially acceptable. Imagine sending out throngs of people in an attempt to convert Packer fans into Bears fans. Of course we laugh at that but isn't it the same as trying to convert people to your faith?
BTW, the movie that prompted this line of thought was "Agora." It's a Hollywood adaptation about Hyaptia of Alexandria, the female Roman philosopher, mathematician, scholar and teacher. Yes, a woman actually teaching men. According to Socrates Scholasticus, Cyril, the Christian leader of Alexandria at the time, was jealous of the popularity and respect she enjoyed. The Roman prefect Orestes, often sought her out for counsel. Orestes had converted to christianity, Hypatia refused. Finally a band of christian thugs brutally tortured and murdered her.
"...it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles. After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them."
Socrates Scholasticus (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/hypatia.asp)
While the Pagans had no problem with the position Hypatia had earned in Alexandria, the Christians did. And they responded by brutally murdering her.
That someone died for refusing to convert to christianity didn't surprise me. The movie was more a reminder of just how misogynistic christianity is. And the brutality... I just can't see how anyone could do the things they did and say they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Zenda, you're right, this is a mental disorder.
Kia Ora Julie,
::) I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality hence why those who believe absurdities will more likely commit atrocities...
::) And if history is anything to go by, I'm inclined to 'believe' this...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 07:21:52 PM
Kia Ora Julie,
::) I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality hence why those who believe absurdities will more likely commit atrocities...
::) And if history is anything to go by, I'm inclined to 'believe' this...
Metta Zenda :)
Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:25:41 PM
Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil
Kia Ora Jen,
::) If the [skull] cap fits....... ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil
Paul had about the same grip on reality that your sentence has on spelling and grammar. A violent predator, one with a psychopathic personality, spends too much time in the desert sun, falls off his horse and starts to have visions of god speaking to him. Right. He (like Joan of Arc) would find a pretty different diagnosis today then they got then. For sure on that.
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 06:52:54 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Interesting points, and I couldn't agree with you more in regards to human behaviour/nature... However[ there's always an 'however'] unlike other religions/belief systems, nowhere in Buddhist scripture does it advocate war, violence, killing or an 'eye for an eye' mentality ...
::) The word Buddha in simple layman's terms means 'awaken' and such an awaken mind is free from the bonds of Samsara...[Therefore every Buddhist's goal is to achieve Nivana-an awaken mind]... So for a person who calls themselves a follower of the Buddha's teaching [The Dharma] to take up arms and kill others is in no way doing this in the name of the 'Buddha' [Buddhism], but their actions are a by-product of their cultural upbringing/beliefs...
::) For many countries that had adopted Buddhism as a national belief system, much of their ancestral cultural beliefs were incorporated with the Buddha's teaching, hence polluting the purity of the Dharma...
So anything that goes against the 5 basic precepts for lay Buddhists [see below] is not done in the name of Buddhism...But through cultural influence!
The 5 precepts [that Buddhist lay-people are meant to try and up hold] in other word to reframe from Stealing – Killing – Intoxicants-Lying-Sexual misconduct...[SKILS]...
::) Humans being humans can at times be easily manipulated and lead, ever those who call themselves Buddhists-Buddhists are human and so was the Buddha[be it a somewhat more 'enlighten' one]...
::) Hate begets hate...Violence begets violence...Do no harm is what the Buddha taught !
Metta Zenda :)
Oh I totally agree. However Buddhists still killed in the name of their religion.
Just as Christians. Christ taught that when hit, you turned the other cheek. To give your cloak away. To love your neighbor as yourself.
So many religions, at it's core, is centralized around peace. However, you have the vices of humanity who will exploit the religion the moment someone follows it.
Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 10:25:19 PM
Oh I totally agree. However Buddhists still killed in the name of their religion.
Just as Christians. Christ taught that when hit, you turned the other cheek. To give your cloak away. To love your neighbor as yourself.
So many religions, at it's core, is centralized around peace. However, you have the vices of humanity who will exploit the religion the moment someone follows it.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) I'm open to a change of mind, so could you please give examples of Buddhism[or if you like the Buddhist 'faith'] being at the forefront of any major conflict/war...Say something similar to the crusades for example ?
::) It's possible you have found something that I've missed, however I should point out when it comes to Buddhism I'm no historian, and have not studied its history in depth...My interest lies solely with the Dharma...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) I'm open to a change of mind, so could you please give examples of Buddhism[or if you like the Buddhist 'faith'] being at the forefront of any major conflict/war...Say something similar to the crusades for example ?
Around 400 CE, The Tibetan Temples coordinated attacks with the Mongolians warlords and as a result of the Buddhists leaders providing monks, arms, and strategic advice, the temples were rewarded with sizable amounts of loot, gold and other costly items.
In 612 CE, the Buddhist temples and monks sided with the Tang Dynasty to bring it into power. This was performed by the leaderships of the Shaolin Temples.
In 900 CE, the Yamabushi were Buddhist monks with practices of Shingon, Tendai, and Shinto disciplines. They helped Emperor Go-Daigo to overthrow the Kamakura Shogunate who had an employ of Samurai at his disposal.
In 1300 CE, Buddhist monks were employed to push the Mongols out of China.
In 1400-1500 CE, the Sohei warrior monks of the Buddhist faith was employed by different feudal leaders of Japan to fight for territory. The warriors of Japanese military during the second world war was the "marrying" of Zen Buddhism and the Samurai Code.
1950-1990 CE, Buddhist monks of Sinhalese and the Hindu monks of Tamil fought in Sir Lanka. Over 50,000 people died.
Overall, the Buddhist monks were embroiled in warfare just as their Christian "counterparts" who were Knights Templar, Etc. And they (Buddhist Temple Leaders) used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the monks' hearts to be involved in war just as the Pope used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the Priests and Knights' hearts. Both promised a good and justly afterlife (as according to their theology of the afterlife, of course).
As I said, many religions promote peaceful coexistence but it is the human nature of ourselves to exploit it. It is one of the driving forces behind me getting a Ph.D. in world religions. One must realize the mistakes of the past, regardless of religion or what the religion says about peace and violence, to prevent further religious related acts of war...or "try" to prevent it.
The first step (and hardest step), in my opinion, is the peaceful respect for each others' religion and to follow the tenants of their religion as it is suppose to be followed. However, as long as you have Christians who say "Jesus is the only way or you'll fry in hell in eternity" or the Muslims who say the same thing (as well as other religions), we will never get there.
The good news is, at least in Christianity, is the fact that progressive churches are becoming more accepted by Christians. However, in the overall scheme of things, religion in general is diminishing.
Then you get to the issue of Atheist related warfare (in which 62 million people have been killed in the last 150 years alone by those who were proclaimed Atheists who killed those who followed a religion)...which were vastly more than the Christian Crusades (including the Albigensian Crusades), witch hunts, and the Inquisitions put together. The Black Death created more deaths with over 70 million souls.
So whatever way you look at it, war is a human condition with greed, conquest, power and pride as it's co-morbids. Killing in the name of a religion or killing those who are religious by atheist people is still killing and it all comes back to the primary source: a human being causing it.
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:14:07 AM
Around 400 CE, The Tibetan Temples coordinated attacks with the Mongolians warlords and as a result of the Buddhists leaders providing monks, arms, and strategic advice, the temples were rewarded with sizable amounts of loot, gold and other costly items.
In 612 CE, the Buddhist temples and monks sided with the Tang Dynasty to bring it into power. This was performed by the leaderships of the Shaolin Temples.
In 900 CE, the Yamabushi were Buddhist monks with practices of Shingon, Tendai, and Shinto disciplines. They helped Emperor Go-Daigo to overthrow the Kamakura Shogunate who had an employ of Samurai at his disposal.
In 1300 CE, Buddhist monks were employed to push the Mongols out of China.
In 1400-1500 CE, the Sohei warrior monks of the Buddhist faith was employed by different feudal leaders of Japan to fight for territory. The warriors of Japanese military during the second world war was the "marrying" of Zen Buddhism and the Samurai Code.
1950-1990 CE, Buddhist monks of Sinhalese and the Hindu monks of Tamil fought in Sir Lanka. Over 50,000 people died.
Overall, the Buddhist monks were embroiled in warfare just as their Christian "counterparts" who were Knights Templar, Etc. And they (Buddhist Temple Leaders) used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the monks' hearts to be involved in war just as the Pope used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the Priests and Knights' hearts. Both promised a good and justly afterlife (as according to their theology of the afterlife, of course).
As I said, many religions promote peaceful coexistence but it is the human nature of ourselves to exploit it. It is one of the driving forces behind me getting a Ph.D. in world religions. One must realize the mistakes of the past, regardless of religion or what the religion says about peace and violence, to prevent further religious related acts of war...or "try" to prevent it.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Thanks for finding and providing this info... It would seem on a mundane level, there's much I'm not aware of when it comes to some of Buddhism's somewhat shady history[What some did back then in the name of Buddhism ]...
::) However the pure core of the Buddha's teachings are about being in the 'here and now' and not to cling to the past ,
"Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !" Perhaps that's why I have no attachment to it, that is, past history in this sense even if true is irrelevant...What's done is done and can't be changed...But thanks again for providing the proof that I ask for, and that backs up your statement...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:14:07 AM
Then you get to the issue of Atheist related warfare (in which 62 million people have been killed in the last 150 years alone by those who were proclaimed Atheists who killed those who followed a religion)...which were vastly more than the Christian Crusades (including the Albigensian Crusades), witch hunts, and the Inquisitions put together.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...
::) Access to modern weapons of mass destruction[including cannons, machine guns, bombs, etc] enables humans to kill more humans, just imagine what it would have been like if they were available at the time of the crusades or Spanish inquisition...One has to compare 'apples with apples'...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:23:11 AM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...
::) Access to modern weapons of mass destruction[including cannons, machine guns, bombs, etc] enables humans to kill more humans, just imagine what it would have been like if they were available at the time of the crusades or Spanish inquisition...One has to compare 'apples with apples'...
Metta Zenda :)
I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. People use any justification to go to war.
The first Gulf war, an obviously embarrassed US general claimed they had liberated the freedom loving people of Kuwait.
The second, Bush says Iraq is now democratic.
Neither of these statements is an inditement of democracy or liberty. But were both used by some to attack both. Indeed, one of the more popular signs in 2006, when 3500, apparently Muslim people wandered around London saying, among other things, they wanted to kill us all, was, Democracy go to Hell and down with liberty.
Religion doesn't cause war. The Crusades were and are still claimed to have been holy wars. Yet the reality was they were an attempt by the European aristocrats to re-establish trade routes to India, cut off since the invention of Islam. This led to the gradual exploration of the seas around Africa and westwards and so the colonasiation and enslavement of the Americas and Australisia. (Africa was always enslaved and remains so).
The suicide bombers apparently acting on behalf of contemporary Islam don't seem to be the leaders who try to brainwash frightened people into believing that suicide bombing leads to paradise.
Just because people claim to be acting on behalf of religion, doesn't mean it's true.
Muslims are very peaceful, tolerant people. Christians are, almost pacifists and not permitted to judge others.
The clue is in the behaviour.
I listen to the spirits-above who speak to me as voicesinmyhead
Its wild how some times they say to turn right or left or watch this or make sure i do that or thank so and so..
I have learned the hard way when i don't listen to that voice in my head that trys to guide me and help me
That voice needs to be taught to children at a young age to help them be able to hear from those caring spirits.
I also know if they are negative things i hear than i am not to listen or follow
Finally what i say to another (you all reading this) is really meant for me and if it speaks to another (any of you) then so be it, it is not from me, i am just the vehicle from above, that is reaching that person (you). I get no claim to fame i am just a surrendered soul ;D
Quote from: Amazon D on December 11, 2011, 07:38:34 AM
I listen to the spirits-above who speak to me as voicesinmyhead
Its wild how some times they say to turn right or left or watch this or make sure i do that or thank so and so..
I have learned the hard way when i don't listen to that voice in my head that trys to guide me and help me
That voice needs to be taught to children at a young age to help them be able to hear from those caring spirits.
I also know if they are negative things i hear than i am not to listen or follow
Finally what i say to another (you all reading this) is really meant for me and if it speaks to another (any of you) then so be it, it is not from me, i am just the vehicle from above, that is reaching that person (you). I get no claim to fame i am just a surrendered soul ;D
there is an area of our brain that seems to function as a relay for communicating with G-d. Would it be correct to say that you are listening to messages from the Lord G-d ?
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2011, 06:51:32 PM
What exactly would be the value of having a faith that is 'the wrong one'?
That's not how the question was posed (as explained in my original post.)
Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 07:21:52 PM
I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality
There's also the knowledge factor, where Atheists and Agnostics score the highest.
U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey (http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpewforum.org%2FuploadedImages%2FTopics%2FBelief_and_Practices%2Freligious-knowledge-01.png&hash=b0c02bcfb1ed81b336ee7fbd55eb0496a622815f)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:23:11 AM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...
Oh yes they did. There were/are three leaders who killed people who followed a religion. They killed these people because the people refused to believe in an absence of God.This leaders made it clear in their writings and manifests that they had people put to death for refusal to stop worshiping.
The 62 million people I stated earlier were those who were killed for following a religion and refusing to not believe in a God. Again, I can get you multiple sources of this. Yes, they did kill for their atheistic philosophies.
I can provide sources of multiple leaders who visibly killed in the name of atheism if you desire.
My point out of this entire set of arguments is that religion or the disbelief of religion is not the cause of war. It is the inherit desire of humankind that, so far, has proven to be less than stellar. Then again, you have acts of kindness and generosity from both religions and atheist people.
It is humans that circulate the desire for war and any reason will be used as an excuse to commit it.
Well when I hear John sing 'imagine no religion' I can see the twin towers still standing.
Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 07:20:33 AM
I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. People use any justification to go to war.
The first Gulf war, an obviously embarrassed US general claimed they had liberated the freedom loving people of Kuwait.
The second, Bush says Iraq is now democratic.
Neither of these statements is an inditement of democracy or liberty. But were both used by some to attack both. Indeed, one of the more popular signs in 2006, when 3500, apparently Muslim people wandered around London saying, among other things, they wanted to kill us all, was, Democracy go to Hell and down with liberty.
Religion doesn't cause war. The Crusades were and are still claimed to have been holy wars. Yet the reality was they were an attempt by the European aristocrats to re-establish trade routes to India, cut off since the invention of Islam. This led to the gradual exploration of the seas around Africa and westwards and so the colonasiation and enslavement of the Americas and Australisia. (Africa was always enslaved and remains so).
The suicide bombers apparently acting on behalf of contemporary Islam don't seem to be the leaders who try to brainwash frightened people into believing that suicide bombing leads to paradise.
Just because people claim to be acting on behalf of religion, doesn't mean it's true.
Muslims are very peaceful, tolerant people. Christians are, almost pacifists and not permitted to judge others.
The clue is in the behaviour.
Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],
::) What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities,[they just don't have a belief in a god] they [like theists and agnostics] are
driven by ignorance in the form of misguided belief, fear, greed, etc... ::) However in the case of religion, manipulation by use of a powerful figure such as a god, adds a lot of weight to the war mongers self serving cause...And one has only to look at some of the propaganda tactics use prior to the Gulf war, statements by some powerful military figures when talking to church congregations in the US, using the term "Crusades' even our friend George B, used it...
::) Some people are easily lead and fed propaganda.... I remember a while back the controversy when it was discovered that some of the sights on the rifles use by the US military had a biblical quote inscribed [ I can't remember the exact verse], and the manufacturer of those sights was a right wing Christian...One would have thought surely those in authority who were in charge of buy and supplying would have picked up on such a blatant act of promoting religious belief [in this case Christianity] and to antagonise not only Muslims but other non Christians serving in the US military...
::) Sadly there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life all religions/belief systems who will manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2011, 12:30:25 PM
Well when I hear John sing 'imagine no religion' I can see the twin towers still standing.
And on the same musical phrase, countless of baby boomer generation (and the generation older) Russians see the many relatives they lost from execution squads.
If religion becomes extinct, humans will just find another excuse to justify their killings.
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],
::) What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities
For the numbers I quoted, they were specifically killed because they refused to stop worshiping their God and would not yield to an atheistic form of community.
Atheism, in the examples I had given, were indeed driven to commit those atrocities.
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:34:47 PM
If religion becomes extinct, humans will just find another excuse to justify their killings.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) True, but you must admit, at present there's no getting away from the fact 'god-centric religion' is the catalyst for a good percentage of the world's troubles/woes...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:46:09 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) True, but you must admit, at present there's no getting away from the fact 'god-centric religion' is the catalyst for a good percentage of the world's troubles/woes...
Metta Zenda :)
I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.
I have seen good come from the Abrahamic religions. I have seen evil come from the Abrahamic religions.
I have seen good come from atheism. I have seen evil come from atheism.
I have seen good come from the earth based religions. I have seen evil come from the earth based religions.
I have seen good come from politics (I know...hard to swallow). I have seen evil come from politics.
I've just seen, heard, read, and study too much to dismiss otherwise. If you want to use the law of numbers, it works it's self out to almost a balance to all three spheres when it comes to deaths and lives prospered.
If your argument is true that the majority of the world's troubles and woes then one would presuppose that the planet would experience a large percentage of tranquility and peace if religion were to be abolished or if everyone stopped worshiping what they worshiped. I am sorry. I have been studying religion, sociology and anthropology to tell you that will not happen.
Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop and it will not come from separating each other religions out or to get rid of them. Once the dust of an extinct religious belief settles, wars and atrocities will still continue.
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:37:37 PM
For the numbers I quoted, they were specifically killed because they refused to stop worshiping their God and would not yield to an atheistic form of community.
Atheism, in the examples I had given, were indeed driven to commit those atrocities.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Were they killed just for refusing to stop worshiping their god ? Or their ideology when it came greed and corruption regarding the state of affairs ie, economy, equality, etc ? However in saying this, we all know that 'power' eventually will corrupt no matter what side of the fence one sits...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.
I have seen good come from the Abrahamic religions. I have seen evil come from the Abrahamic religions.
I have seen good come from atheism. I have seen evil come from atheism.
I have seen good come from the earth based religions. I have seen evil come from the earth based religions.
I have seen good come from politics (I know...hard to swallow). I have seen evil come from politics.
I've just seen, heard, read, and study too much to dismiss otherwise. If you want to use the law of numbers, it works it's self out to almost a balance to all three spheres when it comes to deaths and lives prospered.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Then I'm afraid we don't see eye to eye and will have to agree to disagree...
::) However there's one thing I'm sure we agree on...
There are unscrupulous people in all walks of life all religions/belief systems who will manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"..
.Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:54:28 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) Were they killed just for refusing to stop worshiping their god ? Or their ideology when it came greed and corruption regarding the state of affairs ie, economy, equality, etc ? However in saying this, we all know that 'power' eventually will corrupt no matter what side of the fence one sits...
Metta Zenda :)
They were killed because they would not stop worshiping the God they believed in and in the Governments' charters, to worship a God over their leader was a treasonous offense. If they stopped the worshiping they would have been spared. If they continued, they were put to death.
That appears to specific to me.
If one were to argue the case that there were other things in play then one has to portray that to religious warfare. There can be an excuse easily applied to anything....such as The Great Crusades' excuse of wanting to reopen their pilgrimage back to the Holy Lands so they sent "Pilgrims to Jerusalem with a sword." It;'s an excuse in my eyes because they killed along the way; which directly went against Christ's teachings of "love your neighbor as yourself."
When someone overplays goodness in what they believe in but then blames another group of people for atrocities and warfare, then you are no different than the people you blame.
This isn't pointed at anyone but just a general belief I have.
True acceptance is when you can see the goodness and faults, not only in the religions and beliefs you do not follow, but in yours as well.
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 01:02:19 PM
They were killed because they would not stop worshiping the God they believed in and in the Governments' charters, to worship a God over their leader was a treasonous offense. If they stopped the worshiping they would have been spared. If they continued, they were put to death.
That appears to specific to me.
If one were to argue the case that there were other things in play then one has to portray that to religious warfare. There can be an excuse easily applied to anything....such as The Great Crusades' excuse of wanting to reopen their pilgrimage back to the Holy Lands so they sent "Pilgrims to Jerusalem with a sword." It;'s an excuse in my eyes because they killed along the way; which directly went against Christ's teachings of "love your neighbor as yourself."
Kia Ora Annah,
::) What appears as the truth to you [your beliefs and your faith in a god] is not true for me[my understanding of life]...You have your reasons to believe, I have no reason to believe the same...
::) However as I mentioned before... There's one thing I'm sure we agree upon...And that is
there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life, all religions/belief systems who will use whatever means possible to manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"
."The road to hell is often paved with good intent !"
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],
::) What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities,[they just don't have a belief in a god] they [like theists and agnostics] are driven by ignorance in the form of misguided belief, fear, greed, etc...
Metta Zenda :)
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.
There are many claiming to be driven by many things. But all are driven and will use whatever means they can take.
There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weaposn. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.
Rape, senseless destruction of civilian property, slavery, looting. All banned, yet all done with impunity. How many veteranes of any war do you know don't have war trophies?
The use of religion, politics, threats, lies. Hell, when the British troops were being trained to go kill Germans in WW1 they were told that the Germans were eating babies. When the war was over, the Germans had been told the same thing about the British. Does anyone remember the crying (apparently Kuwaitie) girl testifying to Congress that drug crazed Iraqi troops were ripping babies from their incubators and throwing them onto the floor?
Just because someone claims to be doing something on behalf of their religion doesn't men it's actually true. The evidence demonstrates that the sort of people to go to war have a fluid grasp of truth.
Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 01:30:56 PM
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.
There are many claiming to be driven by many things. But all are driven and will use whatever means they can take.
There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weaposn. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.
Rape, senseless destruction of civilian property, slavery, looting. All banned, yet all done with impunity. How many veteranes of any war do you know don't have war trophies?
The use of religion, politics, threats, lies. Hell, when the British troops were being trained to go kill Germans in WW1 they were told that the Germans were eating babies. When the war was over, the Germans had been told the same thing about the British. Does anyone remember the crying (apparently Kuwaitie) girl testifying to Congress that drug crazed Iraqi troops were ripping babies from their incubators and throwing them onto the floor?
Just because someone claims to be doing something on behalf of their religion doesn't men it's actually true. The evidence demonstrates that the sort of people to go to war have a fluid grasp of truth.
Kia Ora Spacial,
::) In Buddhism 'ignorance' covers a wide scope of things [not only these I mentioned]... It includes any 'unskillful' acts that might start with good intent, but ends with immoral outcomes, both theists and atheists and long with agnostics are guilty of this...
::) I guess because this is the spiritual section I can safely quote Buddhism, for example the Eight fold path...The first three, of the eight involve developing wisdom "right understanding[or right view]", "right thought", "right speech", and as one delves deeper into their contents developing a deeper insight, this in turn gradually dispels 'ignorance' in all its forms...
::) So my use of the term ignorance Spacial goes deeper than ones general understanding...Beyond ones 'ignorance' of the term ignorance, so to speak...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 01:30:56 PM
There are, for example, laws preventing the use of chemical weapons, torture, especially of prisoners in war time, even some types of weapons. Yet when war breaks out, these things are rolled out and used. Such prohibitions are irrelevant.
Actually chemical weapons have not been used since WWI. Biological weapons were used at very limited scale WWII (Japan drop biological weapons over China in the 1930. Allegedly the Soviets used the Tularemia weapon against the Germans in WWII), but have not been used since. Flamethrowers have not been used since Vietnam.
Ummmm, Don Rumsfeld and the Reagan Administration sold chemical weapons to Iraq to use on Iran. So, not a match.
Google it, you'll get more than 11 million hits.
And use of things like Agent Orange et. all. is also considered chemical warfare.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:05:20 PM
Actually chemical weapons have not been used since WWI. Biological weapons were used at very limited scale WWII (Japan drop biological weapons over China in the 1930. Allegedly the Soviets used the Tularemia weapon against the Germans in WWII), but have not been used since. Flamethrowers have not been used since Vietnam.
Kia Ora Jen,
::) If I remember rightly I read somewhere that the Israeli military have used/tested[or were accused of using] a new 'chemicals'[in the form of a gas] they had developed on unsuspecting Palestinians...Perhaps you know more about this allegation...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:29:01 AM
there is an area of our brain that seems to function as a relay for communicating with G-d. Would it be correct to say that you are listening to messages from the Lord G-d ?
I would say so
but that was from above, speaking to you, thru somebody's surrendered vehicle not mine since it came from you even before you knew me
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop
Don't forget the profit motive. Imagine what kind of war weapons would be developed if the profit was taken out.
"From this point forward, all developers and manufacturers of war-based products will be no longer be permitted to add profit to the sale of their products to the armed forces. After all, it is un-American to profit from the protection of our freedom."
Right.
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2011, 12:22:42 PM
There's also the knowledge factor, where Atheists and Agnostics score the highest.
U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey (http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpewforum.org%2FuploadedImages%2FTopics%2FBelief_and_Practices%2Freligious-knowledge-01.png&hash=b0c02bcfb1ed81b336ee7fbd55eb0496a622815f)
Kia Ora Julie,
::) In some strange, paradoxical way, some atheists/non theists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners ! They do a lot more research, for example by 'actually' studying the bible with an open mind...
::) Tis also said the bible is one of the most powerful means at the atheist's disposal for 'converting' people to atheism...And if an atheist's understanding/commitment begins to weaken they just need to pick up 'their' copy *
of any god-centric holy book* and read a few verses, and their 'faith' in atheism is restored ;) ;D I might say this in jest, but it holds true for many....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:52:44 PM
I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.
Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop and it will not come from separating each other religions out or to get rid of them. Once the dust of an extinct religious belief settles, wars and atrocities will still continue.
Kia Ora Annah,
::) And in what form will this 'enlightenment' arrive ? Enlighten me !
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2011, 02:16:09 PM
Ummmm, Don Rumsfeld and the Reagan Administration sold chemical weapons to Iraq to use on Iran. So, not a match.
Google it, you'll get more than 11 million hits.
And use of things like Agent Orange et. all. is also considered chemical warfare.
You are slipping Tekla, usually your post are right on the money but lately you are slipping. I am afraid the facts make your post above inaccurate at best.
USA or Germany never sold any chemical weapons to Iraq or anybody else. They sold them technology to built a pesticide plant. True this is a dual use technology.
Agent orange, a defoliant, is not considered a chemical weapon. And even if it was, it use by US in Vietnam (1961-1971) was before the USA become a party to the Chemical Weapons Convention or the Geneva Convention on Chemical WeaponsSee below:
Chemical Weapons Convention: Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction
Drafted September 3, 1992. Signed January 13, 1993. Effective April 29, 1997. Ratification by 65 states. Signatories: 165. Parties:188 (as of December 2010)
The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol. The USA become a party to this convention on 10 April 1975
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:28:22 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) What appears as the truth to you [your beliefs and your faith in a god] is not true for me[my understanding of life]...You have your reasons to believe, I have no reason to believe the same...
I am not debating religious truth because I do not believe in a religious absolute truth. I find all religions (and lack of religion) to be equally embracing.
My point of contention is the debates that wars are done by all religious people regardless of what religion they are and kindness and charity has been done by those same religions. The same goes for atheism. I am also sharing historical events that proves that religion and atheism of all shapes and sizes has done harm and good. I am not debating a belief in a god. If someone worships the flying spaghetti monster, then so be it.
Quote::) However as I mentioned before... There's one thing I'm sure we agree upon...And that is there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life, all religions/belief systems who will use whatever means possible to manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"
.
I agree
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 03:33:31 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) And in what form will this 'enlightenment' arrive ? Enlighten me !
Metta Zenda :)
I have absolutely no idea and I don't think humankind will know for thousand of years in future if we haven't blown the planet apart by then
Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 09:35:46 PM
I have absolutely no idea and I don't think humankind will know for thousand of years in future if we haven't blown the planet apart by then
Kia Ora Annah,
::) A Buddhist perspective on 'Enlightenment'...Enlightenment is when there is no longer a concept of 'two'.. "The 'self' does not exist, and to realise this is to achieve enlightenment... But if there is no 'self', who or what is it that becomes enlightened ? ::) ;)
::) You have a nice day Annah :icon_bunch:
Metta Zenda :)
There is only one truth faith.
When I find it, I'll let you know. Right now, the Farce is in the front running,.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 12, 2011, 12:00:13 AM
There is only one truth faith.
Yeah, it's called Discordianism. Look it up.
I believe Bob and Robert Anton Wilson are their gods. Except for, you know, when they're not.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on December 12, 2011, 08:37:23 AM
Yeah, it's called Discordianism. Look it up.
I believe Bob and Robert Anton Wilson are their gods. Except for, you know, when they're not.
Hail Eris! I think it's safe to say that the only things killed by Discordianism are brain cells, by the millions! Also, I don't think anyone's been killed by Jains except themselves...
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 12, 2011, 12:16:15 PM
Hail Eris!
Oh yes, how could I forget about Eris
QuoteAlso, I don't think anyone's been killed by Jains except themselves...
Jains are so good at killing themselves, that they don't even need to wage any wars!
Half-serious jokes aside, I have HUGE respect for Jainism.
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 12, 2011, 12:16:15 PM
Also, I don't think anyone's been killed by Jains except themselves...
Chandragupta, a Jain believer and founder of the Mourya Dynasty in India killed many. One of them was Necoter, the General of Alexander the Great.
Ashok, a Jain believer, led a war in which hundreds of thousand of people were killed. After the wars, he was so concerned over the Jain philosophies of warfare at the time, that he abandoned the faith and converted to Buddhism.
Mahameghvahan Kharvel was a Jain believer and emperor who waged war in Western India and won. Two years later he led a conquest that unified all of India (including present day Pakistan and Afghanistan).
Quote from: Annah on December 13, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
Chandragupta, a Jain believer and founder of the Mourya Dynasty in India killed many. One of them was Necoter, the General of Alexander the Great.
Ashok, a Jain believer, led a war in which hundreds of thousand of people were killed. After the wars, he was so concerned over the Jain philosophies of warfare at the time, that he abandoned the faith and converted to Buddhism.
Mahameghvahan Kharvel was a Jain believer and emperor who waged war in Western India and won. Two years later he led a conquest that unified all of India (including present day Pakistan and Afghanistan).
Kia Ora Annah,
::) On your reckoning "all" religions have blemished pasts[some continue to be tainted as such]...So what's the point of 'religion' [or more to the point people having 'faith' in religion ?]... Wouldn't it be better if 'civilised' man gradually did away[through means of education] with 'god-centric faith-based' religions ? After all, they do tend to be the ones with the most human blood spilled and continue to be/do so...Some use their belief in an almighty supernatural power as an excuse to commit atrocities, suppress others, manipulation etc...It's a proven effective 'tool' for controlling the gullible/ignorant masses, and even in this day and age in the wrong hands a most dangerous one...
::) Some 'food' for thought ;)
::) A donkey is a simple creature it would follow a carrot on a stick, but it is still capable, even with its most basic of intellect of determining when there is 'no' carrot ! ::) It does make one wonder about so called higher human intelligence...
::) Any belief system that promotes self discovery[or goes a little deeper, ie, that there is no self] and that is 'not' reliant on any outside supernatural influence[which quite often corrupts the mind eg, in a delusional state "God spoke to 'me' so 'I' know the truth, 'I' know what god wants !"], will greatly benefit humanity...I'm sure you would agree...
Metta Zenda :)
I don't think we can do away with God.
We can't outgrow Him, we can't out science Him, we can't out civilize him.
God is God and will always be so.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 13, 2011, 02:32:15 PM
I don't think we can do away with God.
We can't outgrow Him, we can't out science Him, we can't out civilize him.
God is God and will always be so.
Kia Ora Sarah,
::) So what is 'god' ?
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 13, 2011, 02:32:15 PM
I don't think we can do away with God.
We can't out science Him !
Kia Ora Sarah,
::) But science can and is gradually diluting the concept into a more harmless, user friendly solution...One more palatable...
::) " Blind faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich." And one has got to seriously question a story where the 'fruit of knowledge' is forbidden !
Metta Zenda :)
I disagree with you Zenda, but you have your right to your opinion.
Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I'll say it up front... mine may not be. I don't worry about it. People are free to choose as long as they don't start infringing on personal rights.
Cindi
Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 13, 2011, 03:49:28 PM
I disagree with you Zenda, but you have your right to your opinion.
Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Kia Ora Sarah,
::) I have no wish to ridicule a person's personal beliefs, even though at times when I'm expressing an opinion, it might look like it...I respect you, your beliefs and that you choose to disagree[we agree to disagree :icon_flower: :icon_hug:]...
::) May your beliefs/faith bring you comfort in your times of need...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 13, 2011, 02:26:43 PM
Kia Ora Annah,
::) On your reckoning "all" religions have blemished pasts[some continue to be tainted as such]...So what's the point of 'religion' [or more to the point people having 'faith' in religion ?]... Wouldn't it be better if 'civilised' man gradually did away[through means of education] with 'god-centric faith-based' religions ?
As I mentioned before in my posts here, religions generally have a peaceful overtones to their practices. It is humanity who distorts religion. I have never seen a perfect religion.
I point out contrasts of religions because my point is it isn't the religion or dogma of a particular religion that is to be blamed (unless your holy books call for babies being sacrificed, etc etc) but the corruption of those who follow a particular religion where they corrupt the belief to shape it to their will. The Pope bends their doctrine of Penitence by encouraging Christians to sign up for the Crusades, Bin Laden bends their doctrine of Jihad by having people strap bombs to their chests, etc etc.
The core principal of most religions are peaceful in nature. It is humankind that manipulates and molests it.
As I pointed out earlier (three times :) ), if civilized man did away with religion you will still have killings as I pointed out in Atheistic based massacres where the Atheist leaders killed their religious subjects. So, no, taking God out of the picture would do absolutely nothing to stop violence in the name of a faith.
QuoteAfter all, they do tend to be the ones with the most human blood spilled and continue to be/do so...Some use their belief in an almighty supernatural power as an excuse to commit atrocities, suppress others, manipulation etc...It's a proven effective 'tool' for controlling the gullible/ignorant masses, and even in this day and age in the wrong hands a most dangerous one...
As I stated before, three leaders who executed their citizens in the name of Atheistic values killed more people than the Great Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and Roman-Pagan conflicts combined. I have actual numbers to prove this as well as sources.
To say the most human blood spilled and
continue to be/do so is due to an almighty supernatural power is whole fully inaccurate. Again, this correlates to my previous statement above this one.
Quote::) A donkey is a simple creature it would follow a carrot on a stick, but it is still capable, even with its most basic of intellect of determining when there is 'no' carrot ! ::) It does make one wonder about so called higher human intelligence...
Sounds like you are calling people who follow a faith that they cannot tangibly see, a simple jackass. I hope I am misreading your analogy.
Quote::) Any belief system that promotes self discovery[or goes a little deeper, ie, that there is no self] and that is 'not' reliant on any outside supernatural influence[which quite often corrupts the mind eg, in a delusional state "God spoke to 'me' so 'I' know the truth, 'I' know what god wants !"], will greatly benefit humanity...I'm sure you would agree...
I do agree, and I would go a step further and say this occurs in every aspect and form of social interaction. Religion is just a fraction in which people will usurp an idea, goal, vision, or a cause to manipulate things for matters of greed, power, or sex.
Quote from: Zenda on December 13, 2011, 02:46:14 PM
Kia Ora Sarah,
::) But science can and is gradually diluting the concept into a more harmless, user friendly solution...One more palatable...
::) " Blind faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich." And one has got to seriously question a story where the 'fruit of knowledge' is forbidden !
Metta Zenda :)
I just want to point out you are doing is the same exact thing that religious fundamentalists are infamous for. They take their own opinions and assuming theirs is the right way and anyone who doesn't follow their belief are fools and blinded.
You given the allegory of faith to a human is like sand to an ostrich and a carrot being dangled in front of a donkey is assanizing and you are fulfilling the OP thread question "Why does your Faith have to be "The Right One."
Because, you see, anyone who has a faith or as you call it "a blind faith" is foolish. That to me, is you saying your ideas are right where the others are "living with their heads in the sand" etc etc
It shows me irreverence to someone who follows a belief system in which you do not follow.....irreverence is something someone should not have if they desire co existence and respect with a diverse world.
Whatever you choose to believe is your right. No one should take that from you, try to take that from you or pressure you into believing something else. We, as a society, should deplore any actions that attempt to force, coerce, convince, pressure or take any other actions against someone who has a different attitude, outlook or belief then we do. We talk about free will but then campaign to punish those who do not live the way we want them.
This is not exclusive to religion but I fear it is the history of this in religion that has caused us to accept such action against another as tolerable and even preferable.
"I am a Mormon."
"I am a Jew."
"I am a Muslim."
"I am a Catholic."
"I am an Evangelical."
"I am hungry."
"Okay, let's go eat."
Most would find that funny because most would expect those people to shun one another, if not completely, at least to some degree. But shouldn't we all aspire to just getting along rather spending our time trying to convert the world to our faith?
Quote from: Annah on December 13, 2011, 07:38:08 PM
As I mentioned before in my posts here, religions generally have a peaceful overtones to their practices. It is humanity who distorts religion. I have never seen a perfect religion.
I point out contrasts of religions because my point is it isn't the religion or dogma of a particular religion that is to be blamed (unless your holy books call for babies being sacrificed, etc etc) but the corruption of those who follow a particular religion where they corrupt the belief to shape it to their will. The Pope bends their doctrine of Penitence by encouraging Christians to sign up for the Crusades, Bin Laden bends their doctrine of Jihad by having people strap bombs to their chests, etc etc.
The core principal of most religions are peaceful in nature. It is humankind that manipulates and molests it.
As I pointed out earlier (three times :) ), if civilized man did away with religion you will still have killings as I pointed out in Atheistic based massacres where the Atheist leaders killed their religious subjects. So, no, taking God out of the picture would do absolutely nothing to stop violence in the name of a faith.
As I stated before, three leaders who executed their citizens in the name of Atheistic values killed more people than the Great Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and Roman-Pagan conflicts combined. I have actual numbers to prove this as well as sources.
To say the most human blood spilled and continue to be/do so is due to an almighty supernatural power is whole fully inaccurate. Again, this correlates to my previous statement above this one.
Sounds like you are calling people who follow a faith that they cannot tangibly see, a simple jackass. I hope I am misreading your analogy.
I do agree, and I would go a step further and say this occurs in every aspect and form of social interaction. Religion is just a fraction in which people will usurp an idea, goal, vision, or a cause to manipulate things for matters of greed, power, or sex.
Kia Ora Annah,.
::) 1) It was man 'who' invented religion ! [Unless that is one believes in a god creator]...
::) 2) One example "The Bible also contains the horrific account of what can only be described as a "biblical holocaust". For, in order to keep the chosen people apart from and unaffected by the alien beliefs and practices of indigenous or neighbouring peoples, when God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword!"
Deut 20:
13 And when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword;
14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth,
17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee;
::) 3) And as I mentioned before one must compare apple with apples, 'time', place, killing devices available at the 'time' etc a sword or bow and arrow is no match for a machine gun[basic example]...
::) 4) Where did I say this ? "On your reckoning "
all" religions have blemished pasts[some continue to be tainted as such]...So what's the point of 'religion' [or more to the point people having 'faith' in religion ?]... Wouldn't it be better if 'civilised' man gradually did away[through means of education] with
'god-centric faith-based' religions ? After all,
'they' do tend to be the ones with the most human blood spilled and continue to be/do so!" Annah what I'm discussing here is
god-centric faith base religions compared to
non theist ones...
::) 5) All god-centric religions are based upon 'faith' and for the most part it is 'blind faith' requiring no proof whatsoever! A few simple questions[to get my point across] What is god ? and What's god's purpose ? What makes a person believe -have faith in and worship that which is 'unknown' ?
Annah, being happy is what we 'all' want in life, and if one can find this by believing [or not believing] in a god, so be it...The truth lies within...Know thyself...For it's all the 'mind'...If a person's 'faith' is strong then no matter what I say it would have little if any impact upon them !
BTW I have an understanding but I don't have a 'faith' as such...I think it would be best Annah if you saved your anger/aggression/frustration for those religious people[those who have 'faith' perhaps] who despise trans-people...
::) However this discussion is getting a little personal :eusa_naughty: ,[example by likening me to a fundamentalist-not that I mind though, it's only a word-I've been called worse ;) ] so lets agree to disagree[as originally agreed upon]...You have your beliefs of which I'm truly happy for you and I know what I know...I wish you well Annah...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 13, 2011, 08:20:53 PM
"I am a Mormon."
"I am a Jew."
"I am a Muslim."
"I am a Catholic."
"I am an Evangelical."
"I am hungry."
"Okay, let's go eat."
Kia Ora Julie,
::) Eat what ? ..... So long as it's not pork/meat/greens/cheese/carrots/potatoes/broccoli/pasta etc etc... "You can please some of the people some of the time-but not all of the people all of the time !" ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Zenda, you left out the parts where Kings Josiah and Hezekiah wiped out everyone who would not participate in the "true" religion. The Bible's first written version was crafted during Josiah's reign somewhere around 800 BC and revised by Hezekiah some 150 years later.
But that's of little consequence in this discussion. I have neighbors who firmly believe in UFO's. Every week or so, someone tells me of something they've seen in our little valley. Hey... I'm outside nearly every night staring at the stars, even on those very nights and times these sightings occur not even half a mile away. I have nothing to say other than "I'm sorry, I didn't see it." I've tried and failed miserably to give them the facts. It's not that they are unintelligent, it's that they want to believe. What can I say about that?
Quote from: Cindi Jones on December 13, 2011, 11:09:34 PM
Zenda, you left out the parts where Kings Josiah and Hezekiah wiped out everyone who would not participate in the "true" religion. The Bible's first written version was written during Josiah's reign somewhere around 800 BC and revised by Hezekiah some 150 years later.
But that's of little consequence in this discussion. I have neighbors who firmly believe in UFO's. Every week or so, someone tells me of something they've seen in our little valley. Hey... I'm outside nearly every night staring at the stars, even on those very nights and times these sightings occur not even half a mile away. I have nothing to say other than "I'm sorry, I didn't see it." I've tried and failed miserably to give them the facts. It's not that they are unintelligent, it's that they want to believe. What can I say about that?
Kia Ora Cindi,
::) And the list goes on and on, but Annah would know this of course, as she has studied this in depth...And I believe could give an in depth account of what all the different holy books say on the subject, if she so felt inclined to do so...
::) UFO and gods, both 'aliens' so to speak.... At times it can be hard to convince a person of anything[not that I'm trying to ], for their beliefs are not based upon evidence, they're just based on a deep-seated 'need' to believe! The human mind is amazingly creative...One is never bored studying ones mind...So my advice to others, don't leave home without one ! ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 13, 2011, 10:26:12 PM
Kia Ora Annah,.
::) 1) It was man 'who' invented religion ! [Unless that is one believes in a god creator]...
Humankind, since intelligence became of them have looked above themselves to have faith in something higher than themselves.
One cannot prove humankind "invented" religion or if they "discovered" it. No one will ever know how the exact details came to pass.
Quote::) 2) One example "The Bible also contains the horrific account of what can only be described as a "biblical holocaust". For, in order to keep the chosen people apart from and unaffected by the alien beliefs and practices of indigenous or neighbouring peoples, when God commanded his chosen people to conquer the Promised Land, he placed city after city 'under the ban" -which meant that every man, woman and child was to be slaughtered at the point of the sword!"
As did almost every other book written during that time including secular centric writings. Religion was just one slice of the pie as a rallying cry to commit to war. Other reasoning as I stated earlier were also responsible. To blame religion entirely or say it was the majority of all killings throughout history and modern times has some hints of truths but to entirely blame religion is relaxing the hand on other motives in which people kill.
QuoteDeut 20:
13 And when the LORD thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword;
14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 Howbeit of the cities of these peoples, that the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth,
17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee;
Galatians 5:22
~The fruit of the spirit is love, joy and peace.
1st Corinthians 13:4-8
~Love is patient, love is kind, Love does not insist on its own way. Love bears all things, believes all things, Hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.
Isaiah 9:6
~His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Matthew 22:39
~And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Like any aspect of life and like every part of known and unknown civilization, be it religion or secular reasons, there are acts of loving kindness and there are acts of horrific acts.
The Bible is not alone in this measure. It's a common integer in any aspect of ourselves as human beings that there are acts of atrocity and acts of kindness. I have shown this in the Buddhist examples, the Christian examples, etc.
And as I pointed out the atheist related atrocities, there has also been generous acts of charity by those who are Atheists. No one thing can be blamed.
Quote::) 3) And as I mentioned before one must compare apple with apples, 'time', place, killing devices available at the 'time' etc a sword or bow and arrow is no match for a machine gun[basic example]...
Death is death no matter the method applied to it. A life is lost.
Quote::) 4) Where did I say this ? "On your reckoning "all" religions have blemished pasts[some continue to be tainted as such]...So what's the point of 'religion' [or more to the point people having 'faith' in religion ?]...
The point of religion is the point of the believer. There is no point in religion for someone who does not believe. A believer in a certain religion believes in their diety(ies).
It is up to others who do not believe in that religion to have the respect to allow them to worship. Likewise, it is up to others who do believe in a religion to have respect to those who do not have a faith.
When someone makes fun, belittles, degrades, or find another person's beliefs (or no beliefs) wrong, then we repeat the cycle all over again with intolerance.
QuoteWouldn't it be better if 'civilised' man gradually did away[through means of education] with 'god-centric faith-based' religions ?
As I stated four previous times, no, it would not work. It's been tried before (less than a hundred years ago) and millions of religious people died for their beliefs. When someone believes in something, you cannot weed it out like an antibiotic to bacteria.
And to assume only civilized "man" is civilized because they do not worship a god is narrow minded.
QuoteAfter all, 'they' do tend to be the ones with the most human blood spilled and continue to be/do so!" Annah what I'm discussing here is god-centric faith base religions compared to non theist ones...
As am I. As I explained in numerous posts, blood has been spilled in the name of a particular religion and blood has been spilled in the name of an Atheist action.
Quote::) 5) All god-centric religions are based upon 'faith' and for the most part it is 'blind faith' requiring no proof whatsoever! A few simple questions[to get my point across] What is god ? and What's god's purpose ? What makes a person believe -have faith in and worship that which is 'unknown' ?
And as I pointed out faith should not be comparable to a ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. When an ostrich does this it has a false security in thinking that if it cannot see the threat then the threat is no longer there.
Faith is so much more deeper than that and it in no way comes close to the allegory of the Ostrich and the Sand. I am not here to convince you nor am I here to explain to you how faith works. You either have faith in something or you don't. I am responding to your posts because your posts exhibits the behavior of exactly what the original poster was asking.
Your answer to eliminating the chances of people fighting over faith and religion as being the right one is to get rid of all of them so that there are no more arguments over the right one, ergo, you become guilty over your own explanations by saying "My non centric God belief has to be the right one because the only way to stop the violence is to get rid of god centric religion." You are being hoisted by your own petard.
QuoteAnnah, being happy is what we 'all' want in life, and if one can find this by believing [or not believing] in a god, so be it...The truth lies within...Know thyself...For it's all the 'mind'...If a person's 'faith' is strong then no matter what I say it would have little if any impact upon them !
And being happy with oneself and others despite faith, religion, politics, etc is a big step to peace.
QuoteBTW I have an understanding but I don't have a 'faith' as such...I think it would be best Annah if you saved your anger/aggression/frustration for those religious people[those who have 'faith' perhaps] who despise trans-people...
1. I am not angry.
2. I am writing to show you that your own philosophy in these matters are showing a sense of "I am right and you are wrong" when my position has been and always will be, one should have the right to worship in anything or have the right to worship in nothing. When someone starts saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "Atheism is right and religion is wrong" or "My religion is right and Atheism is wrong"; those statements sound exactly the same to me. It shows little respect for diversity.
3. I do not show anger/aggression/frustration for those religious people who despise trans people. I deliver my beliefs and convictions to the table in a manner in which I do not say "I am right and you are wrong and your way is silly." Every denomination in the Christian Church who has accepted LGBT through the witnesses of LGBT church leaders and though the fruits of their labor in these religious institutions. The saw kindness and godliness in people they had once thought to be immoral sinners. Also, our push for a more accurate interpretation of the Koine Greek in relation to homosexuality has helped the ordination of LGBT tremendously. Speaking in regards to the acceptance of LGBT in the church, anger did not win the fight. Patience and understanding did. Yes, there are other denominations who has not accepted the LGBT population but that is their lost not mine.
Every Sunday morning, I put on my clerical collar and deliver the Christian word of God to a Church in Lancaster, PA and a few days later I attend Coven and cite the rede and embrace earth spirituality. I embrace evolution, I embrace all religions, I am a 3rd degree witch and next year an Ordained Christian Pastor.
I attend a Seminary with three Atheists who are my closest friends, my boyfriend is Buddhist, and my Seminarian Vice President is gay and married to the college bookstore Manager. I could not be happier. I am not just saying these words on a forum, I am living out my convictions. I truly enjoy the company of every philosophy out there and I enjoy the company of every type of person as long as they do not disrespect other people's convictions.
Quote from: Annah on December 13, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
Chandragupta, a Jain believer and founder of the Mourya Dynasty in India killed many. One of them was Necoter, the General of Alexander the Great.
Ashok, a Jain believer, led a war in which hundreds of thousand of people were killed. After the wars, he was so concerned over the Jain philosophies of warfare at the time, that he abandoned the faith and converted to Buddhism.
Mahameghvahan Kharvel was a Jain believer and emperor who waged war in Western India and won. Two years later he led a conquest that unified all of India (including present day Pakistan and Afghanistan).
This makes me incredibly sad. It seems as though religion is the exception to the rule that there is always an exception to the rule.
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on December 14, 2011, 10:37:21 AM
This makes me incredibly sad. It seems as though religion is the exception to the rule that there is always an exception to the rule.
sadly, until we find a way to peacefully co exist there will always be someone who finds an exception to any rule to go to war.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on December 13, 2011, 11:09:34 PM
I have neighbors who firmly believe in UFO's. Every week or so, someone tells me of something they've seen in our little valley. Hey... I'm outside nearly every night staring at the stars, even on those very nights and times these sightings occur not even half a mile away. I have nothing to say other than "I'm sorry, I didn't see it." I've tried and failed miserably to give them the facts. It's not that they are unintelligent, it's that they want to believe. What can I say about that?
"Ah," they will say to you, "only when we open our eyes completely do we see the truth."
Maybe you blinked.
Quote from: Annah on December 14, 2011, 02:13:10 AM
Kia Ora,
"First of all Annah I would like to compliment you on your diligence when providing points of reference and to also commend you on your steadfastness [Sticking to your guns so to speak]...However .........My comments in red"
Humankind, since intelligence became of them have looked above themselves to have faith in something higher than themselves.
One cannot prove humankind "invented" religion or if they "discovered" it. No one will ever know how the exact details came to pass.
"I find this very hard to believe, again one would have to have 'faith' to believe this ! And your above statement does in a way state that man 'came up with' religion-When looking for something greater than themselves !"
As did almost every other book written during that time including secular centric writings. Religion was just one slice of the pie as a rallying cry to commit to war. Other reasoning as I stated earlier were also responsible. To blame religion entirely or say it was the majority of all killings throughout history and modern times has some hints of truths but to entirely blame religion is relaxing the hand on other motives in which people kill.
"'Entirely !' Your words Annah, not mine !"
Death is death no matter the method applied to it. A life is lost.
"Then why go out of your way to give examples of how 'bad' atheists atrocities were and how many they have killed[in modern times using modern means] compared to theists with their swords and bows and arrows! It would seem your means of comparison leaves out then and now-ancient verses modern times[within the last 150 years]
The point of religion is the point of the believer. There is no point in religion for someone who does not believe. A believer in a certain religion believes in their diety(ies).
"Annah, this would be all well and good if this were true, however many of them expect non believers to adhere to what 'their' so called deities have deemed moral/true, according to their holy books..."
It is up to others who do not believe in that religion to have the respect to allow them to worship. Likewise, it is up to others who do believe in a religion to have respect to those who do not have a faith.
"True...But throughout history 'for the most part' it was the religious who disrespected those who chose not to believe and those who believed in a different god/s[squabbling amongst themselves so to speak and as well as persecuting the non believers] ...Nowadays, I 'believe' humanistic atheism and the free thinkers *agnostics* [of the age of enlightenment] have brought this respect to the table and the religious theists were forced to come to the party or become even more isolated from mainstream society ..."
When someone makes fun, belittles, degrades, or find another person's beliefs (or no beliefs) wrong, then we repeat the cycle all over again with intolerance.
"True...But I would presume one who has 'faith' would not 'fear' what another says about them or their belief in a god...To do so would indicate insecurity on their part,[or if you like a lack of 'faith'] And if this is the case then what's the point in living with this uncertainty about a so called almighty creator/benefactor ? Having faith in this case would serve no beneficial purpose whatsoever..."
As I stated four previous times, no, it would not work. It's been tried before (less than a hundred years ago) and millions of religious people died for their beliefs. When someone believes in something, you cannot weed it out like an antibiotic to bacteria.
"One hundred years is a very short span, it took 2000 years to get Christianity up and running and it's still on shaky ground- with all the splinter groups/cults that have sprouted from it all claiming their slice/version of the truth!"
And to assume only civilized "man" is civilized because they do not worship a god is narrow minded.
"What is it that all Abrahamic religions have in common ? A 'narrow minded' belief that their faith is the right one and that god chose them ! Civilised man does not need a 'faith' in a god to know what's 'right' "
As am I. As I explained in numerous posts, blood has been spilled in the name of a particular religion and blood has been spilled in the name of an Atheist action.
"Have I said anything different ?"
And as I pointed out faith should not be comparable to a ostrich sticking it's head in the sand. When an ostrich does this it has a false security in thinking that if it cannot see the threat then the threat is no longer there.
Faith is so much more deeper than that and it in no way comes close to the allegory of the Ostrich and the Sand. I am not here to convince you nor am I here to explain to you how faith works. You either have faith in something or you don't. I am responding to your posts because your posts exhibits the behavior of exactly what the original poster was asking.
"I had to smile when I read this ![But I'm guessing you don't see the funny side]... However at times you do tend to come across as having to be right, and perhaps find it difficult when others challenge your understanding/personal beliefs...I enjoy a challenge...I guess it's because I enjoy life..."
our answer to eliminating the chances of people fighting over faith and religion as being the right one is to get rid of all of them so that there are no more arguments over the right one, ergo, you become guilty over your own explanations by saying "My non centric God belief has to be the right one because the only way to stop the violence is to get rid of god centric religion." You are being hoisted by your own petard.
"What ??? "
And being happy with oneself and others despite faith, religion, politics, etc is a big step to peace.
"What is it that both Islam and Christianity as a whole wants ? To save us from 'ourselves'! You of all people should know this, you yourself are a convert..."
I am not angry.
2. I am writing to show you that your own philosophy in these matters are showing a sense of "I am right and you are wrong" when my position has been and always will be, one should have the right to worship in anything or have the right to worship in nothing. When someone starts saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "Atheism is right and religion is wrong" or "My religion is right and Atheism is wrong"; those statements sound exactly the same to me. It shows little respect for diversity.
"I have respect for diversity but even as patient as I am[as a saint so I'm told ], I have little time for stupidity!"
3. I do not show anger/aggression/frustration for those religious people who despise trans people. I deliver my beliefs and convictions to the table in a manner in which I do not say "I am right and you are wrong and your way is silly." Every denomination in the Christian Church who has accepted LGBT through the witnesses of LGBT church leaders and though the fruits of their labor in these religious institutions. The saw kindness and godliness in people they had once thought to be immoral sinners. Also, our push for a more accurate interpretation of the Koine Greek in relation to homosexuality has helped the ordination of LGBT tremendously. Speaking in regards to the acceptance of LGBT in the church, anger did not win the fight. Patience and understanding did. Yes, there are other denominations who has not accepted the LGBT population but that is their lost not mine.
"But I do detect some of this towards me because of how I see things... However, I express my opinions in order to help others think a little deeper about what they believe ! My personal beliefs are my personal beliefs and when I express them, people should see them as such...If they find them threatening in any way, that's an issue for them to sort out[with their god/s]..."
Every Sunday morning, I put on my clerical collar and deliver the Christian word of God to a Church in Lancaster, PA and a few days later I attend Coven and cite the rede and embrace earth spirituality. I embrace evolution, I embrace all religions, I am a 3rd degree witch and next year an Ordained Christian Pastor.
"Good on you! However if it weren't for the free thinkers and humanistic atheism you would have been burnt at the stake by now! Think about it ! 'Christianity and Paganism' make strange bedfellow... "
I attend a Seminary with three Atheists who are my closest friends, my boyfriend is Buddhist, and my Seminarian Vice President is gay and married to the college bookstore Manager. I could not be happier. I am not just saying these words on a forum, I am living out my convictions. I truly enjoy the company of every philosophy out there and I enjoy the company of every type of person as long as they do not disrespect other people's convictions.
"I'm truly happy for you and your conviction[BTW how long did you get ? ;)]... My work involves helping people of all walks of life who are in 'need' [desperate need in some cases].. I see the 'person' who is suffering, not their religious conviction or lack of...
I bring my compassion and understanding without judgement to my work , I guess, like many I also live out my conviction too!"
Theism and atheism are NOT and have NEVER been compatible, history highlights this truth ! And no matter how one tries, one can not bring these two opposing mind sets together in harmony- for any 'long period of time' that is!
Like two opposing thoughts can NOT occupy the same space at the same time within ones mind, this applies to the theist and atheist !
It would be illogical to think otherwise! 'Faith verses logic and reason'... One as got to give way for the other ! Or be prepared to exists in a very 'diluted' form/state !
"Faith" in something does not mean it will come to pass. These two ARE facts that empirical evidence does support.
We may not see eye to eye but I thank you Annah, for providing some food for thought for not only myself, but for others who read your comments too...
Metta Zenda :)
QuoteKia Ora,
"I find this very hard to believe, again one would have to have 'faith' to believe this ! And your above statement does in a way state that man 'came up with' religion-When looking for something greater than themselves !"
My previous statements tell how humans since they became intelligent had a yearn to seek out something higher than themselves. This does not mean they "made it up." The issue remains that no one will be able to prove if man created religion or discovered it.
And yes, it is a matter of faith...just as you have faith that humankind created religion because you will never have the proof you need to know for sure if it was created.
QuoteDeath is death no matter the method applied to it. A life is lost.
"Then why go out of your way to give examples of how 'bad' atheists atrocities were and how many they have killed[in modern times using modern means] compared to theists with their swords and bows and arrows! It would seem your means of comparison leaves out then and now-ancient verses modern times[within the last 150 years]
My point still stands that a death is a death. I do not measure the value of killing because of how efficient it is. The fact of the matter is, people died.
Furthermore I never made any comparisons between bows and arrows and machine guns. I made the point that humankind's desire to harm and inflict pain is here regardless of religion and it matters not what instrument they use to carry it out. The act of killing is still the same.
Quote"Annah, this would be all well and good if this were true, however many of them expect non believers to adhere to what 'their' so called deities have deemed moral/true, according to their holy books..."
And likewise, many non believers (and yourself) makes suggestions that they should abandon their beliefs to make the world a better place. This to me, is no different than religious people doing it to non believers to make the world a better place....what I have been saying in the last five posts.
Quote"True...But throughout history 'for the most part' it was the religious who disrespected those who chose not to believe and those who believed in a different god/s[squabbling amongst themselves so to speak and as well as persecuting the non believers] ...Nowadays, I 'believe' humanistic atheism and the free thinkers *agnostics* [of the age of enlightenment] have brought this respect to the table and the religious theists were forced to come to the party or become even more isolated from mainstream society ..."
And as I stated earlier, religious related violence is not the only violence here on earth. People have killed in the name of God, people have killed in the name of territory, people have killed in the name of sex, people have killed in the name of Atheism. I do not look at one portion and then point my fingers and scream foul. I look at the whole picture.
Quote"True...But I would presume one who has 'faith' would not 'fear' what another says about them or their belief in a god...To do so would indicate insecurity on their part,[or if you like a lack of 'faith'] And if this is the case then what's the point in living with this uncertainty about a so called almighty creator/benefactor ? Having faith in this case would serve no beneficial purpose whatsoever..."
People who have in faith in whatever they believe in should not fear when another says something about their religion; however, people do act that way. Hence my points in the first two posts on this thread. Atrocities has been committed because of ignorance, fear and pride over religion. Then again, as my point continues, atheists has done the same exact thing as well as others under different convictions (such as territory, honor, money, etc)
Quote"One hundred years is a very short span, it took 2000 years to get Christianity up and running and it's still on shaky ground- with all the splinter groups/cults that have sprouted from it all claiming their slice/version of the truth!"
Again, you have been misinformed. Christian has been up and running since the earliest Roman manuscripts speaks of Christian as early as 90 CE. Furthermore, the religion was so stable that once the goths and other people sacked Rome on August 24, 410, the Christian churches and ecclesiastical standing remained unshaken despite the Roman Empire's infrastructure crumbling before their eyes.
It is not debate but a fact that the Christian religion was like a small candle giving hope to others during the Dark Ages when everything crumbled including roads, infrastructures, aqueducts, government, education, living conditions, etc.
The Church was never on shaky ground after the dissolution of the Roman Empire. They continued under the Holy Roman Empire and then the Orthodox Church in the East formed as a result of earlier councils.
The Christian Church was alive and well even before it became the Roman State Religion on February 27, 380 CE under Emperor Constantine.
I am not sure where you received information stating that Christianity took 2000 years to get it up and running but your information is in error.
Quote"What is it that all Abrahamic religions have in common ? A 'narrow minded' belief that their faith is the right one and that god chose them ! Civilised man does not need a 'faith' in a god to know what's 'right' "
Again, attacking religions as being narrow minded is narrow minded. It is quite clear you hate the Abrahamic religions and I am not here to convince that you shouldn't hate them. If that is your thing then that is your thing, but I am also here to tell you, I have studied the Bible for over eight years in a post graduate environment and yes there is violence in the Bible and acts of aggression and narrow mindedness, but my whole entire point is: This exists in ALL forms of religion and non religion. Religion is not to blame, Abrahamic religions is not to blame, Atheism is not to blame. Humanity is to blame for narrow-mindedness occurs in every facet of human civilization.
[quote Annah]our answer to eliminating the chances of people fighting over faith and religion as being the right one is to get rid of all of them so that there are no more arguments over the right one, ergo, you become guilty over your own explanations by saying "My non centric God belief has to be the right one because the only way to stop the violence is to get rid of god centric religion." You are being hoisted by your own petard.[/quote]
Quote"What ??? "
When you claim religion is narrow minded and then you act the same why in which you are accusing religion to be doing, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard. Meaning, you are committing the act in which you are blaming religion as doing.
Quote"What is it that both Islam and Christianity as a whole wants ? To save us from 'ourselves'! You of all people should know this, you yourself are a convert..."
Each religion has their own dogma. If you don't like it you don't have to follow it. I find it interesting that I am a "convert." It implies that someone convinced me into believing something. No. I believe in what I believe and I respect what others believe in.
Every religion has an aspect of having one go above and beyond than what they assumed they are. If you don't like that, it's fine. I am not debating that. I am debating your views on certain religions.
[quote Annah]I am not angry.
2. I am writing to show you that your own philosophy in these matters are showing a sense of "I am right and you are wrong" when my position has been and always will be, one should have the right to worship in anything or have the right to worship in nothing. When someone starts saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "Atheism is right and religion is wrong" or "My religion is right and Atheism is wrong"; those statements sound exactly the same to me. It shows little respect for diversity.[/quote]
Quote"I have respect for diversity but even as patient as I am[as a saint so I'm told ], I have little time for stupidity!"
If you find my beliefs stupid then that's your thing. What makes me different from you is the fact that I will never call your beliefs stupid.
Quote"But I do detect some of this towards me because of how I see things... However, I express my opinions in order to help others think a little deeper about what they believe ! My personal beliefs are my personal beliefs and when I express them, people should see them as such...If they find them threatening in any way, that's an issue for them to sort out[with their god/s]..."
I do not find your opinions threatening. However, if you were to become a world leader, then I would find your beliefs extremely dangerous.
QuoteTheism and atheism are NOT and have NEVER been compatible, history highlights this truth !
This is untrue. The simple fact that we have atheists attend our seminary and the fact that some of my best friends who are atheists respect each others beliefs shows me that Theism and atheism is compatible. Only those who are insecure in their religious beliefs or atheist beliefs would say they cannot be compatible.
I've seen it first hand of them being compatible. Every day I see it.
QuoteAnd no matter how one tries, one can not bring these two opposing mind sets together in harmony- for any 'long period of time' that is!
Like two opposing thoughts can NOT occupy the same space at the same time within ones mind, this applies to the theist and atheist !
If you, with your views, and Pat Roberston, with his views, got to together for lunch then I would agree with you. However, as I stated, I have seen the two mindsets in harmony. I see it everyday. I see it in action.
QuoteIt would be illogical to think otherwise! 'Faith verses logic and reason'... One as got to give way for the other ! Or be prepared to exists in a very 'diluted' form/state !
Again, this is a stereotype. I have seen it first hand that faith and logic/reason are intertwined in a harmonious balance. I see it everyday.
Quote from: Annah on December 14, 2011, 10:28:17 PM
The issue remains that no one will be able to prove if man created religion or discovered it.
::) 'Religion' is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, so it's more than likely it 'was' created
And yes, it is a matter of faith...just as you have faith that humankind created religion because you will never have the proof you need to know for sure if it was created.
::) What proof do I need Annah ? I have nothing to prove! "What can be asserted without proof can just as easily be dismissed without proof !"
My point still stands that a death is a death. I do not measure the value of killing because of how efficient it is. The fact of the matter is, people died.
Furthermore I never made any comparisons between bows and arrows and machine guns. I made the point that humankind's desire to harm and inflict pain is here regardless of religion and it matters not what instrument they use to carry it out. The act of killing is still the same.
::) I know you never made these comparisons[machine guns, bow, arrow and swords], I was just pointing out the fact you didn't take both the time of theses events and what killing devices were on hand, into account when coming up with the figures !
And likewise, many non believers (and yourself) makes suggestions that they should abandon their beliefs to make the world a better place. This to me, is no different than religious people doing it to non believers to make the world a better place....what I have been saying in the last five posts.
And as I stated earlier, religious related violence is not the only violence here on earth. People have killed in the name of God, people have killed in the name of territory, people have killed in the name of sex, people have killed in the name of Atheism. I do not look at one portion and then point my fingers and scream foul. I look at the whole picture.
::) Did I say it was ? I also look at the whole picture but not through 'theist eye'...What eyes do you see things through Annah are they 'uncontaminated' ?
People who have in faith in whatever they believe in should not fear when another says something about their religion; however, people do act that way. Hence my points in the first two posts on this thread. Atrocities has been committed because of ignorance, fear and pride over religion. Then again, as my point continues, atheists has done the same exact thing as well as others under different convictions (such as territory, honor, money, etc)
::) Remove 'god' from the equation and there would be one less evil to worry about !
Again, you have been misinformed. Christian has been up and running since the earliest Roman manuscripts speaks of Christian as early as 90 CE. Furthermore, the religion was so stable that once the goths and other people sacked Rome on August 24, 410, the Christian churches and ecclesiastical standing remained unshaken despite the Roman Empire's infrastructure crumbling before their eyes.
It is not debate but a fact that the Christian religion was like a small candle giving hope to others during the Dark Ages when everything crumbled including roads, infrastructures, aqueducts, government, education, living conditions, etc.
::) Now I've heard it all, you are joking aren't you? You don't seriously believe this do you ? ! If you believe this you will believe anything !
The Church was never on shaky ground after the dissolution of the Roman Empire. They continued under the Holy Roman Empire and then the Orthodox Church in the East formed as a result of earlier councils.
The Christian Church was alive and well even before it became the Roman State Religion on February 27, 380 CE under Emperor Constantine.
I am not sure where you received information stating that Christianity took 2000 years to get it up and running but your information is in error.
::) Annah, give or take a few hundred years-no big deal [unless one chooses to make it a big deal]...But more to the point all that you quote in regards to dates and events are irrelevant...Info passed down, passing through many hands...No first hand accounts..Errors are possible...
Again, attacking religions as being narrow minded is narrow minded. It is quite clear you hate the Abrahamic religions and I am not here to convince that you shouldn't hate them. If that is your thing then that is your thing, but I am also here to tell you, I have studied the Bible for over eight years in a post graduate environment and yes there is violence in the Bible and acts of aggression and narrow mindedness, but my whole entire point is: This exists in ALL forms of religion and non religion. Religion is not to blame, Abrahamic religions is not to blame, Atheism is not to blame. Humanity is to blame for narrow-mindedness occurs in every facet of human civilization.
::) 'Hate' now I've heard it all [again], when bringing 'hate' into it, you are beginning to sound like the *guy' I had a confrontation with a few years back,[I'm hoping this is not the case though- because he started to go on about 'hell fire and damnation' and that I would burn in hell, amusing really, not only for myself but other readers of the paper] the debate went on for around half a dozen issues of the local paper... He started by accusing me of 'hating' god and 'despising' all Christians...How can I hate what does not exist[beside hate is not part of my make up] and why would I despise all Christians? It's funny how religious people bring hate into the equation[alarm bells go off force of habit I guess]....I might dislike 'stupidity' but I have no 'hatred' or fear of it, I more so have compassion toward those who suffer from it...
When you claim religion is narrow minded and then you act the same why in which you are accusing religion to be doing, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard. Meaning, you are committing the act in which you are blaming religion as doing.
::) What do religions want Annah[I'm refer to the Abrahamic ones] ? Do they want freedom of choice ? Do they strive for human rights[the right of all humans ]? Or do they want the whole world to believe just as they do ?
Each religion has their own dogma. If you don't like it you don't have to follow it. I find it interesting that I am a "convert." It implies that someone convinced me into believing something. No. I believe in what I believe and I respect what others believe in.
::) Were your parents religious ?
Every religion has an aspect of having one go above and beyond than what they assumed they are. If you don't like that, it's fine. I am not debating that. I am debating your views on certain religions.
::) I'm not sure what you mean by this Annah ?
If you find my beliefs stupid then that's your thing. What makes me different from you is the fact that I will never call your beliefs stupid.
I do not find your opinions threatening. However, if you were to become a world leader, then I would find your beliefs extremely dangerous.
::) Now 'that' I find interesting...Like yourself I tend to call it as I see it, for example you call me a 'hater' because you disagree with my opinions...
This is untrue. The simple fact that we have atheists attend our seminary and the fact that some of my best friends who are atheists respect each others beliefs shows me that Theism and atheism is compatible. Only those who are insecure in their religious beliefs or atheist beliefs would say they cannot be compatible.
I've seen it first hand of them being compatible. Every day I see it.
::) Are they all as compatible ? I mentioned before in order for co existence there has to be some form of dilution of one's faith[I'm talking about A R believers here]
If you, with your views, and Pat Roberston, with his views, got to together for lunch then I would agree with you. However, as I stated, I have seen the two mindsets in harmony. I see it everyday. I see it in action.
Again, this is a stereotype. I have seen it first hand that faith and logic/reason are intertwined in a harmonious balance. I see it everyday.
::) Logic/reason dilutes faith and the more it's applied the weaker the faith becomes...
::) Sorry for the delay I'm watching Coro street on TV...
* I've just removed a 'term/word' that might have offended you when reading the sentence and replaced it with a more appropriate word 'guy'...The term I originally used was 'nutjob' because this was the closest thing to describe this person's ranting,verbal attacks and accusations[which I might add started off with accusing me of 'hating']...He flew off the handle when I happened to say that not all Christian values were wholesome and should be adhered to...
Metta Zenda :)
Kia Ora Annah,
::) I think it's about time we called a 'truce' don't you ? A definition of insanity "Continuing to do the same thing over and over again each time hoping for a different outcome/result !" ...
::) I have found your comments both interesting and informative[ and I'm not being sarcastic when I say this]...But we don't see eye to eye, we both have a point to prove and this could go on for ever...So I'll leave it to you to have the last say on the matter...I've said my piece re our discussion...Thank you and as I've said once before, I wish you well and I mean this...No hard feelings Annah...Remember they are just words...Nothing more nothing less !
"Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !" Annah...
:) Happy mindfulness :icon_hug:
Metta Zenda :)