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Why Does Your Faith Have To Be "The Right One"?

Started by Julie Marie, December 08, 2011, 09:11:39 AM

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Anatta

Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:25:41 PM
Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil

Kia Ora Jen,

::) If the [skull] cap fits....... ;)

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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tekla

Oh dear, by your account the Apostol Paul grip of reality was nil

Paul had about the same grip on reality that your sentence has on spelling and grammar.  A violent predator, one with a psychopathic personality, spends too much time in the desert sun, falls off his horse and starts to have visions of god speaking to him.  Right.  He (like Joan of Arc) would find a pretty different diagnosis today then they got then.  For sure on that.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Annah

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 06:52:54 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

::) Interesting points, and I couldn't agree with you more in regards to human behaviour/nature... However[ there's always an 'however'] unlike other religions/belief systems, nowhere in Buddhist scripture does it advocate war, violence, killing or an 'eye for an eye' mentality  ...

::) The word Buddha in simple layman's terms means 'awaken' and such an awaken mind is free from the bonds of Samsara...[Therefore every Buddhist's goal is to achieve Nivana-an awaken mind]... So for a person who calls themselves a follower of the Buddha's teaching [The Dharma] to take up arms and kill others is in no way doing this in the name of the 'Buddha' [Buddhism], but their actions are a by-product of  their cultural upbringing/beliefs...

::) For many countries that had adopted Buddhism as a national belief system, much of their  ancestral cultural beliefs were incorporated with the Buddha's teaching, hence polluting the purity of the Dharma...
So anything that goes against the 5 basic  precepts for lay Buddhists [see below] is not done in the name of Buddhism...But through cultural influence!

The 5  precepts [that Buddhist lay-people are meant to try and up hold] in other word to reframe from  Stealing – Killing – Intoxicants-Lying-Sexual misconduct...[SKILS]...

::) Humans being humans can at times be easily manipulated and lead, ever those who call themselves Buddhists-Buddhists are human and so was the Buddha[be it a somewhat more 'enlighten' one]...

::) Hate begets hate...Violence begets violence...Do no harm is what the Buddha taught !

Metta Zenda :)

Oh I totally agree. However Buddhists still killed in the name of their religion.

Just as Christians. Christ taught that when hit, you turned the other cheek. To give your cloak away. To love your neighbor as yourself.

So many religions, at it's core, is centralized around peace. However, you have the vices of humanity who will exploit the religion the moment someone follows it.
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Anatta

Quote from: Annah on December 10, 2011, 10:25:19 PM
Oh I totally agree. However Buddhists still killed in the name of their religion.

Just as Christians. Christ taught that when hit, you turned the other cheek. To give your cloak away. To love your neighbor as yourself.

So many religions, at it's core, is centralized around peace. However, you have the vices of humanity who will exploit the religion the moment someone follows it.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) I'm open to a change of mind, so could you please give examples of Buddhism[or if you like the Buddhist 'faith'] being at the forefront of any major conflict/war...Say something similar to the crusades for example ?

::) It's possible you have found something that I've missed, however I should point out when it comes to Buddhism I'm no historian, and have not studied its history in depth...My interest lies solely with the Dharma...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Annah

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

::) I'm open to a change of mind, so could you please give examples of Buddhism[or if you like the Buddhist 'faith'] being at the forefront of any major conflict/war...Say something similar to the crusades for example ?

Around 400 CE, The Tibetan Temples coordinated attacks with the Mongolians warlords and as a result of the Buddhists leaders providing monks, arms, and strategic advice, the temples were rewarded with sizable amounts of loot, gold and other costly items.

In 612 CE, the Buddhist temples and monks sided with the Tang Dynasty to bring it into power. This was performed by the leaderships of the Shaolin Temples.

In 900 CE, the Yamabushi were Buddhist monks with practices of Shingon, Tendai, and Shinto disciplines. They helped Emperor Go-Daigo to overthrow the Kamakura Shogunate who had an employ of Samurai at his disposal.

In 1300 CE, Buddhist monks were employed to push the Mongols out of China.

In 1400-1500 CE, the Sohei warrior monks of the Buddhist faith was employed by different feudal leaders of Japan to fight for territory. The warriors of Japanese military during the second world war was the "marrying" of Zen Buddhism and the Samurai Code.

1950-1990 CE, Buddhist monks of Sinhalese and the Hindu monks of Tamil fought in Sir Lanka. Over 50,000 people died.

Overall, the Buddhist monks were embroiled in warfare just as their Christian "counterparts" who were Knights Templar, Etc. And they (Buddhist Temple Leaders) used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the monks' hearts to be involved in war just as the Pope used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the Priests and Knights' hearts. Both promised a good and justly afterlife (as according to their theology of the afterlife, of course).

As I said, many religions promote peaceful coexistence but it is the human nature of ourselves to exploit it. It is one of the driving forces behind me getting a Ph.D. in world religions. One must realize the mistakes of the past, regardless of religion or what the religion says about peace and violence, to prevent further religious related acts of war...or "try" to prevent it.

The first step (and hardest step), in my opinion, is the peaceful respect for each others' religion and to follow the tenants of their religion as it is suppose to be followed. However, as long as you have Christians who say "Jesus is the only way or you'll fry in hell in eternity" or the Muslims who say the same thing (as well as other religions), we will never get there.

The good news is, at least in Christianity, is the fact that progressive churches are becoming more accepted by Christians. However, in the overall scheme of things, religion in general is diminishing.

Then you get to the issue of Atheist related warfare (in which 62 million people have been killed in the last 150 years alone by those who were proclaimed Atheists who killed those who followed a religion)...which were vastly more than the Christian Crusades (including the Albigensian Crusades), witch hunts, and the Inquisitions put together. The Black Death created more deaths with over 70 million souls.

So whatever way you look at it, war is a human condition with greed, conquest, power and pride as it's co-morbids. Killing in the name of a religion or killing those who are religious by atheist people is still killing and it all comes back to the primary source: a human being causing it.
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Anatta

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:14:07 AM
Around 400 CE, The Tibetan Temples coordinated attacks with the Mongolians warlords and as a result of the Buddhists leaders providing monks, arms, and strategic advice, the temples were rewarded with sizable amounts of loot, gold and other costly items.

In 612 CE, the Buddhist temples and monks sided with the Tang Dynasty to bring it into power. This was performed by the leaderships of the Shaolin Temples.

In 900 CE, the Yamabushi were Buddhist monks with practices of Shingon, Tendai, and Shinto disciplines. They helped Emperor Go-Daigo to overthrow the Kamakura Shogunate who had an employ of Samurai at his disposal.

In 1300 CE, Buddhist monks were employed to push the Mongols out of China.

In 1400-1500 CE, the Sohei warrior monks of the Buddhist faith was employed by different feudal leaders of Japan to fight for territory. The warriors of Japanese military during the second world war was the "marrying" of Zen Buddhism and the Samurai Code.

1950-1990 CE, Buddhist monks of Sinhalese and the Hindu monks of Tamil fought in Sir Lanka. Over 50,000 people died.

Overall, the Buddhist monks were embroiled in warfare just as their Christian "counterparts" who were Knights Templar, Etc. And they (Buddhist Temple Leaders) used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the monks' hearts to be involved in war just as the Pope used their religion to ignite pride and loyalty in the Priests and Knights' hearts. Both promised a good and justly afterlife (as according to their theology of the afterlife, of course).

As I said, many religions promote peaceful coexistence but it is the human nature of ourselves to exploit it. It is one of the driving forces behind me getting a Ph.D. in world religions. One must realize the mistakes of the past, regardless of religion or what the religion says about peace and violence, to prevent further religious related acts of war...or "try" to prevent it.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) Thanks for finding and providing this info... It would seem on a mundane level, there's much I'm not aware of when it comes to some of Buddhism's somewhat shady history[What some did back then in the name of Buddhism ]...

::) However the pure core of the Buddha's teachings are about being in the 'here and now' and not to cling to the past , "Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !" Perhaps that's why I have no attachment to it, that is, past history in this sense even if true is irrelevant...What's done is done and can't be changed...But thanks again for providing the proof that I ask for, and that backs up your statement...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:14:07 AM

Then you get to the issue of Atheist related warfare (in which 62 million people have been killed in the last 150 years alone by those who were proclaimed Atheists who killed those who followed a religion)...which were vastly more than the Christian Crusades (including the Albigensian Crusades), witch hunts, and the Inquisitions put together.



Kia Ora Annah,

::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...

::) Access to modern weapons of mass destruction[including cannons, machine guns, bombs, etc] enables humans to kill more humans, just imagine what it would have been like if they were available at the time of the crusades or Spanish inquisition...One has to compare 'apples with apples'...

Metta Zenda :)   
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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spacial

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:23:11 AM
Kia Ora Annah,

::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...

::) Access to modern weapons of mass destruction[including cannons, machine guns, bombs, etc] enables humans to kill more humans, just imagine what it would have been like if they were available at the time of the crusades or Spanish inquisition...One has to compare 'apples with apples'...

Metta Zenda :)   

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. People use any justification to go to war.

The first Gulf war, an obviously embarrassed US general claimed they had liberated the freedom loving people of Kuwait.

The second, Bush says Iraq is now democratic.

Neither of these statements is an inditement of democracy or liberty. But were both used by some to attack both. Indeed, one of the more popular signs in 2006, when 3500, apparently Muslim people wandered around London saying, among other things, they wanted to kill us all, was, Democracy go to Hell and down with liberty.

Religion doesn't cause war. The Crusades were and are still claimed to have been holy wars. Yet the reality was they were an attempt by the European aristocrats to re-establish trade routes to India, cut off since the invention of Islam. This led to the gradual exploration of the seas around Africa and westwards and so the colonasiation and enslavement of the Americas and Australisia. (Africa was always enslaved and remains so).

The suicide bombers apparently acting on behalf of contemporary Islam don't seem to be the leaders who try to brainwash frightened people into believing that suicide bombing leads to paradise.

Just because people claim to be acting on behalf of religion, doesn't mean it's true.

Muslims are very peaceful, tolerant people. Christians are, almost pacifists and not permitted to judge others.

The clue is in the behaviour.
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Amazon D

I listen to the spirits-above who speak to me as voicesinmyhead

Its wild how some times they say to turn right or left or watch this or make sure i do that or thank so and so..

I have learned the hard way when i don't listen to that voice in my head that trys to guide me and help me

That voice needs to be taught to children at a young age to help them be able to hear from those caring spirits.

I also know if they are negative things i hear than i am not to listen or follow

Finally what i say to another (you all reading this) is really meant for me and if it speaks to another (any of you) then so be it, it is not from me, i am just the vehicle from above, that is reaching that person (you). I get no claim to fame i am just a surrendered soul    ;D
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Jen61

Quote from: Amazon D on December 11, 2011, 07:38:34 AM
I listen to the spirits-above who speak to me as voicesinmyhead

Its wild how some times they say to turn right or left or watch this or make sure i do that or thank so and so..

I have learned the hard way when i don't listen to that voice in my head that trys to guide me and help me

That voice needs to be taught to children at a young age to help them be able to hear from those caring spirits.

I also know if they are negative things i hear than i am not to listen or follow

Finally what i say to another (you all reading this) is really meant for me and if it speaks to another (any of you) then so be it, it is not from me, i am just the vehicle from above, that is reaching that person (you). I get no claim to fame i am just a surrendered soul    ;D

there is an area of our brain that seems to function as a relay for communicating with G-d. Would it be correct to say that you are listening to messages from the Lord G-d ?
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Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2011, 06:51:32 PM
What exactly would be the value of having a faith that is 'the wrong one'?

That's not how the question was posed (as explained in my original post.)
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 07:21:52 PM
I read somewhere that the intensity of a person's religious conviction is inversely proportional to their grip on reality
There's also the knowledge factor, where Atheists and Agnostics score the highest.

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey

When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Annah

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 01:23:11 AM
Kia Ora Annah,

::) But atheists did not go to war and commit atrocities in the name of 'atheism', that is they were not driven by an atheistic philosophy as such...Remember just like theists an atheist can be a capitalist, communist, humanist, etc, just because they don't believe there is a god does not mean they are 'immoral' or any better or worse than theists...

Oh yes they did. There were/are three leaders who killed people who followed a religion. They killed these people because the people refused to believe in an absence of God.This leaders made it clear in their writings and manifests that they had people put to death for refusal to stop worshiping.

The 62 million people I stated earlier were those who were killed for following a religion and refusing to not believe in a God. Again, I can get you multiple sources of this. Yes, they did kill for their atheistic philosophies.

I can provide sources of multiple leaders who visibly killed in the name of atheism if you desire.

My point out of this entire set of arguments is that religion or the disbelief of religion is not the cause of war. It is the inherit desire of humankind that, so far, has proven to be less than stellar. Then again, you have acts of kindness and generosity from both religions and atheist people.

It is humans that circulate the desire for war and any reason will be used as an excuse to commit it.
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tekla

Well when I hear John sing 'imagine no religion' I can see the twin towers still standing.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: spacial on December 11, 2011, 07:20:33 AM
I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. People use any justification to go to war.

The first Gulf war, an obviously embarrassed US general claimed they had liberated the freedom loving people of Kuwait.

The second, Bush says Iraq is now democratic.

Neither of these statements is an inditement of democracy or liberty. But were both used by some to attack both. Indeed, one of the more popular signs in 2006, when 3500, apparently Muslim people wandered around London saying, among other things, they wanted to kill us all, was, Democracy go to Hell and down with liberty.

Religion doesn't cause war. The Crusades were and are still claimed to have been holy wars. Yet the reality was they were an attempt by the European aristocrats to re-establish trade routes to India, cut off since the invention of Islam. This led to the gradual exploration of the seas around Africa and westwards and so the colonasiation and enslavement of the Americas and Australisia. (Africa was always enslaved and remains so).

The suicide bombers apparently acting on behalf of contemporary Islam don't seem to be the leaders who try to brainwash frightened people into believing that suicide bombing leads to paradise.

Just because people claim to be acting on behalf of religion, doesn't mean it's true.

Muslims are very peaceful, tolerant people. Christians are, almost pacifists and not permitted to judge others.

The clue is in the behaviour.

Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],

::) What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities,[they just don't have a belief in a god] they [like theists and agnostics] are driven by ignorance in the form of misguided belief, fear, greed, etc...

::) However in the case of religion, manipulation by use of a powerful figure such as a god, adds a lot of weight to the war mongers self serving cause...And one has only to look at some of the propaganda tactics use prior to the Gulf war, statements by some powerful military figures when talking to church congregations in the US, using the term "Crusades' even our friend George B, used it...

::) Some people are easily lead and fed propaganda.... I remember a while back the controversy when it was discovered that some of the sights on the rifles use by the US military had a biblical quote inscribed [ I can't remember the exact verse], and the manufacturer of those sights was a right wing Christian...One would have thought surely those in authority who were in charge of buy and supplying would have picked up on such a blatant act of promoting religious belief [in this case Christianity] and to antagonise not only Muslims but other non Christians serving in the US military...

::) Sadly there are unscrupulous people in all walks of life all religions/belief systems who will manipulate, kill. steal, cheat, and lie, to get others to serve their purpose...Or like Amazon would say "There are some sick puppies out there!"...

Metta Zenda :)     
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Annah

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2011, 12:30:25 PM
Well when I hear John sing 'imagine no religion' I can see the twin towers still standing.

And on the same musical phrase, countless of baby boomer generation (and the generation older) Russians see the many relatives they lost from execution squads.

If religion becomes extinct, humans will just find another excuse to justify their killings.
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Annah

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Kia Ora Spacial [and Annah],

::) What I meant was, an atheist is not 'driven by' atheism to commit atrocities

For the numbers I quoted, they were specifically killed because they refused to stop worshiping their God and would not yield to an atheistic form of community.

Atheism, in the examples I had given, were indeed driven to commit those atrocities.
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Anatta

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:34:47 PM

If religion becomes extinct, humans will just find another excuse to justify their killings.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) True, but you must admit, at present there's no getting away from the fact 'god-centric religion' is the catalyst for a good percentage of the world's troubles/woes...

Metta Zenda :) 
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Annah

Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 12:46:09 PM
Kia Ora Annah,

::) True, but you must admit, at present there's no getting away from the fact 'god-centric religion' is the catalyst for a good percentage of the world's troubles/woes...

Metta Zenda :)

I don't see it that way at all. I see Athiest centered and Religious Centered and politically centered excuses to wage war just as equally. They go hand in hand like peanut butter and jelly.

I have seen good come from the Abrahamic religions. I have seen evil come from the Abrahamic religions.
I have seen good come from atheism. I have seen evil come from atheism.
I have seen good come from the earth based religions. I have seen evil come from the earth based religions.
I have seen good come from politics (I know...hard to swallow). I have seen evil come from politics.

I've just seen, heard, read, and study too much to dismiss otherwise. If you want to use the law of numbers, it works it's self out to almost a balance to all three spheres when it comes to deaths and lives prospered.

If your argument is true that the majority of the world's troubles and woes then one would presuppose that the planet would experience a large percentage of tranquility and peace if religion were to be abolished or if everyone stopped worshiping what they worshiped. I am sorry. I have been studying religion, sociology and anthropology to tell you that will not happen.

Wars will continue until man receives the enlightenment they need to stop and it will not come from separating each other religions out or to get rid of them. Once the dust of an extinct religious belief settles, wars and atrocities will still continue.
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Anatta

Quote from: Annah on December 11, 2011, 12:37:37 PM
For the numbers I quoted, they were specifically killed because they refused to stop worshiping their God and would not yield to an atheistic form of community.

Atheism, in the examples I had given, were indeed driven to commit those atrocities.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) Were they killed just for refusing to stop worshiping their god ? Or their ideology when it came greed and corruption regarding the state of affairs ie, economy, equality, etc ? However in saying this, we all know that  'power' eventually will corrupt no matter what side of the fence one sits... 

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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