As I write this, I've just gotten out of the shower, turned on Madonna, and wearing my ever present black camisole and bra.
I've often pondered what a transsexual woman is. After all, this is the title thrusted on me by my friends, family, and even gay men I've had relationships with. I read through the stories on this board, and I can't help but feel a bit different. I love my male genitalia and would never do anything to it. It's as part of me as Madonna or the Teachings of RuPaul. But for many people here, they have deep dsyphoria that goes beyond anything I've yet to understand.
I got into wearing makeup, hair, etc back in high school. Growing up I had always been an effeminate boy, but I was more inclined to monster/robot action figures than Barbie any day. I admired Barbie for her style, hair, and makeup. I knew it was certainly a career path for me when I was younger. In high school, I was the only boy who listened to Britney Spears, wore glitter, and when I got my own money...I bought very feminine clothes. Of course, my lesbian parents threw a fit and I had to put on my transformation on the side. Even going as far as hiding my gayness from them. My Mom wanted a grandchild, and I think to this day...she wants a legitimate one.
But my Mom always knew, and I think a lot of parents didn't want the child who they raised as a boy to become the very image of a female...Most post 70s feminists like my Mother wanted to avoid.
18 was very much a turning point for me. I was openly gay, extremely feminine and when my "metal head" friends in high school went away. I wanted to fully embrace who I was. But of course, my Mom needed me to support her and got me a job at a local stadium. I was told to act like a boy...and it damaged me. But I also got to questioning who I actually was... Even to this day I question who I am. I try not to think too much about my identity defining me, and just
I knew what MtFs were from a young age. But I knew I could never relate to them 100%. I was cool with drag queens. I loved drag queens, some of them looked better than any woman I had ever seen. Even to this day, I relate to them more than any MtF. Most of my facebook friends are drag queens. They praise me for doing what they do on the weekends...fulltime. We've had several discussions about transsexuals and they see a correlation between what you're doing and what they.
But in discovering my interest in drag queens. I had discovered more about myself, back in 2008. My gay relationships had fallen apart. There were numerous std rumors connected to my boyfriend and I. We were both extremely promiscuous and I had been looking for more validity than just being another kinky twink in SF. I got more into drag than I ever was in high school. Starting in 2009, I went from having an androgynous kink look(shaved head with military fetishes) to Kat Von D's ripped up tops, pixie haircut and more makeup. But I was surprised how many people did not see me as male. I put my interest in DQs on the side and decided to go all the way.
2 years of HRT later, I have a life I only wished for as a gay male....except I am not able to perform and I still crave a real relationship with a gay male even though I am far from anything a gay male wants. I identify as a gay male first, albeit an extremely hyper feminine one and an MtF first. As nothing can change that I have XY chromosomes. My mind simply cannot wrap my mind around going beyond the illusion. I don't identify with CDs, but I definitely see the whole MtF/TS/TG/CD/DQ thing as being related.
The only difference is how we feel inside.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 09, 2011, 05:04:26 PM
As I write this, I've just gotten out of the shower, turned on Madonna, and wearing my ever present black camisole and bra.
I've often pondered what a transsexual woman is. After all, this is the title thrusted on me by my friends, family, and even gay men I've had relationships with. I read through the stories on this board, and I can't help but feel a bit different. I love my male genitalia and would never do anything to it. It's as part of me as Madonna or the Teachings of RuPaul. But for many people here, they have deep dsyphoria that goes beyond anything I've yet to understand.
I got into wearing makeup, hair, etc back in high school. Growing up I had always been an effeminate boy, but I was more inclined to monster/robot action figures than Barbie any day. I admired Barbie for her style, hair, and makeup. I knew it was certainly a career path for me when I was younger. In high school, I was the only boy who listened to Britney Spears, wore glitter, and when I got my own money...I bought very feminine clothes. Of course, my lesbian parents threw a fit and I had to put on my transformation on the side. Even going as far as hiding my gayness from them. My Mom wanted a grandchild, and I think to this day...she wants a legitimate one.
But my Mom always knew, and I think a lot of parents didn't want the child who they raised as a boy to become the very image of a female...Most post 70s feminists like my Mother wanted to avoid.
18 was very much a turning point for me. I was openly gay, extremely feminine and when my "metal head" friends in high school went away. I wanted to fully embrace who I was. But of course, my Mom needed me to support her and got me a job at a local stadium. I was told to act like a boy...and it damaged me. But I also got to questioning who I actually was... Even to this day I question who I am. I try not to think too much about my identity defining me, and just
I knew what MtFs were from a young age. But I knew I could never relate to them 100%. I was cool with drag queens. I loved drag queens, some of them looked better than any woman I had ever seen. Even to this day, I relate to them more than any MtF. Most of my facebook friends are drag queens. They praise me for doing what they do on the weekends...fulltime. We've had several discussions about transsexuals and they see a correlation between what you're doing and what they.
But in discovering my interest in drag queens. I had discovered more about myself, back in 2008. My gay relationships had fallen apart. There were numerous std rumors connected to my boyfriend and I. We were both extremely promiscuous and I had been looking for more validity than just being another kinky twink in SF. I got more into drag than I ever was in high school. Starting in 2009, I went from having an androgynous kink look(shaved head with military fetishes) to Kat Von D's ripped up tops, pixie haircut and more makeup. But I was surprised how many people did not see me as male. I put my interest in DQs on the side and decided to go all the way.
2 years of HRT later, I have a life I only wished for as a gay male....except I am not able to perform and I still crave a real relationship with a gay male even though I am far from anything a gay male wants. I identify as a gay male first, albeit an extremely hyper feminine one and an MtF first. As nothing can change that I have XY chromosomes. My mind simply cannot wrap my mind around going beyond the illusion. I don't identify with CDs, but I definitely see the whole MtF/TS/TG/CD/DQ thing as being related.
The only difference is how we feel inside.
Kia Ora Mahsa,
::) Only time will tell, so in the mean time if how you feel about things is not a big issue... Enjoy life don't waste it !...Who knows, in a few years time you might feel the need to have genital surgery, and if this should be the case, just go with your natural flow and ...Enjoy life ['without' a penis] ! ;)
* Transsexual-is just another label....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 09, 2011, 05:04:26 PM
I've often pondered what a transsexual woman is. After all, this is the title thrusted on me by my friends, family,
Definition of TRANSSEXUAL
: a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transsexual (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transsexual)
http://www.mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm (http://www.mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm)
Suppose that you are not what would be called a transsexual... so what ??? just be yourself... like Zenda said, "transsexual" is just another label...
Masha and I are alike in some ways, yet so different in other ways. lol.
Like Masha, we started out as gay men.
Unlike Masha, I loved Barbies and had an aversion to other male toys.
Like Masha, I had interests in makeup and hair in high school.
Unlike Masha, I was immaculate and preppy (no makeup, or anything) in high school.
Like Masha, I was openly gay and feminine by the time I was 18 and in high school.
Unlike Masha, I was not happy with being gay throughout my college years and early 20s.
Like Masha, I had dressed like a woman, although not drag like she did, throughout my 20s.
Unlike Masha, I was very happy when I was dressed like a woman.
Like Masha, I don't particularly hate my genitals.
Unlike Masha, I am happy with where I am going now. :)
Like Masha, I absolutely adore gay men and would definitely not mind sleeping with some I have met, lol.
Unlike Masha, I ultimately want a straight man and settle down with him for ever. :icon_bunch:
Quote from: MsDazzler on December 09, 2011, 08:00:36 PM
Unlike Masha, I was very happy when I was dressed like a woman.
Unlike Masha, I am happy with where I am going now. :)
I am happy with the way I dress. Just sometimes... I get a bit dsyphoric...Like, 'wtf, who would want to sleep with that?"
Sweetie darhling... catch yourself a man who is bisexual and effeminate. Rich would always be a plus as well.
Quote from: Michelle. on December 10, 2011, 02:32:56 AM
Sweetie darhling... catch yourself a man who is bisexual and effeminate. Rich would always be a plus as well.
I like effeminate guys, but ones within a masculine range. I don't want him to steal my cosmetics or even apply them to his face. On a related note, my boyfriend and I got our sex life back. It was the best it's ever been tonight, even if I had Ryan on my mind.
I currently feel like I have entered a slightly more fluid state, and seeing myself as moving a bit towarrds a self-description of 'transsexual' more than 'transsexual woman.' I am also noticing a slight attraction to men sexually. I am also not as dysphoric as I was a few months ago, and starting to think that an Orchi,. for physical comfort may be all I need rather than full SRS.
I will be discussing this with my Gender Therapist next week, and think it may be because I am feeling more secure and therefore starting to relax my boundaries a little, and not feeling as much need to self-label. I will revisit this thread after my appointment.
Damnit Mahsa, as much as i find myself disagreeing with you in other threads you gotta realise you are a strong confident no-nonsense woman and you dont need a label to classify yourself, your unusual mix of + and - Rep on this forum shows that you arent afraid to say what you think or do what you want and as much as i hate to say it, i do admire you at times.
Its a bit of a pickle about performing and its a problem that i havent had to face (sex is something im avoiding till after my downstairs mix-up is corrected). I suppose you just hve to decide whether you want to be able to perform or you want to continue the HRT. Only you can decide that im afraid and i wish you luck! Just remember its not labels who make you who you are, its what you believe and what you do. Gender is a spectrum, sexuality is another, sometimes they overlap so theres a huge range of different types of trans folk, try not to worry about where you are amongst them.
So yea, as much as you irritate me, i love you and i respect you and i know when you figure out what you want, you will get it in double quick time.
Maybe on a different note; I just today wondered about that question myself.
"What is a transsexual woman?"
If anyone had to LABEL me that's what I am - I suppose. But does it FEEL like that to ME?
To be honest it doesn't. I'm Axélle, with some sort of trans-history. Do I run about declare myself at the top of my voice as being a WOMAN? No, - actually why should I?
Do I feel FEMALE? What do I know? Actually I always felt as I feel now... so now what?
I could only say: "I now feel like a female", if I'd had a comparison like having felt male before transitioning - and I actually didn't.
I never had this notion of FEELING male, or a PROUD father and such, wrong title that was (stress!), as little as I now FEEL female, I am just ME - what ever that is/was.
As far as PRESENTATION goes that's a bit different.
I'm only now presenting my real-myself, something I never could do, was not allowed to do before transition – and that, seems to be female - of sorts. What ever "female" is in the first place. It's a VERY wide range in deed, if you may agree with me.
So, what is a transsexual woman?! Something like me? I guess. Male frame, small boobs and a fanny... something like that?
It is a label OK, but nothing I personally feel to be - it's some sort of explanation rather - as be some far less flattering titles, you'd all know about.
Like say, "girl-with-extra" for the OP?
BTW I used that 'title' at times when pre-op, now the 'extra' is gone that title is lost too, he he.
Axélle
I still don't know the answer to that question. I simply know that I need to be myself.
Z
First and foremost, I don't believe that any person should be overly concerned with labels for themselves. I think it's everyone's primary duty to be comfortable with who they are. Our prime directive is to first love ourselves. After all, we cannot love others until we first love ourselves.
My understanding is that the term transgender means "across" gender lines. Based on what you've said about yourself, I could build a case that you fit in the broad category of transgender.
My understanding of the term "transsexual" is a person who desires to alter their body to match their mind. Based on that definition and the fact that you state you're happy with your parts, I could build a case that you don't fit as a transsexual. Based on the above definitions, all transsexuals are transgender, but not all transgenders are transsexuals.
I further believe that, once GRS has been performed and the mental conflict of gender has been resolved, the body parts match the brain. At this point, it could be argued that one is no longer "transsexual" anything, but that they are either male or female, depending on what surgery they had.
Being trans anything can really take over your brain and occupy your thoughts. It can create serious compulsions at times. Once the body parts match, the conflict can be over. A normal life can be lived. This might be one of the reasons that post-ops leave "the community", as they no longer have any identity with trans people. They see themselves as ordinary people at that point.
I can tell you that I no longer have any of my old thoughts of anxiety over gender issues. I am very comfortably a woman now, just living my life as I should have from the beginning.
Should any other trans people reach the point where they are comfortable with themselves, they should consider that that is the right spot for them and they should consider themselves a success regarding gender issues. We each have to find our own spot and no one else can tell us where that is.
QuoteThe only difference is how we feel inside.
I usually disapprove of what you post, but this one sentence is the key one. Drag-queens, crossdressers, transvestites, transgenders, transsexuals, androgynes and even some gays to some extent have one definite common point : to varying degrees, they question, go against, their supposed sex.
The difference is how they feel inside. A transsexual, namely, is someone who deeply feels they do not belong with their birth gender, and as such, are subject to much dismay. As such, they do everything they can, given their social and financial situation, to join the opposite sex. Of course, some transsexuals will not go "all the way" by choice: the hassle of surgery and the money spent aren't worth the benefit they would get with SRS.
Still, I think that to qualify as a transsexual, an individual should normally, if there were no social pressure (e.g. a wife, homosexual friends, etc.) at all, if they had a magic wand that would make it free, easy, fertile and painless, at least "kind of" prefer having female genitalia.
But even without that (discutable) criteria, even if one is not a transsexual strictly speaking, they can still be transgendered, and transition is not wrong at all even in that less "crystal clear" case.
Over everything, you should not hassle yourself with such labels. Transsexualism has yet to be understood and studied enough. The key point is how happy you are. If you do not feel like a female or a male (because I doubt anyone feelig 100% male would go on HRT), very well. Even though such people are hard to understand for the great majority, me included, there are people who fit the best between genders.
Since you joined, I've been uneasy towards you. Your posts are often crude; sometimes plain unappropriate. But you never feel like a troll, or anything. You feel honest, but in some way distressed. I don't know your whole story, but the glimpses I get of it through your posts feel kind of unhealthy. And you seem like you know something is wrong inside you.
Some people thrive the most in so-said "unhealthy" lives, but if you were one of those, you wouldn't be questioning, looking (clumsily?) for help of some sort, would you?
It's just my own opinion, but I think you might get a great deal of help from a good follow-up with a psychologist, to the conditions that you imply yourself in it responsibly and honestly, and that the professional is comfortable with gender issues/differences and will not focus on that as being your only, obvious problem. I think something, deep inside you, needs to be soothed... But even though I don't stalk you for posts, nor do I know if you're like that in your everyday life, you feel like you easily get sarcastic, "aggressive". You're going to have to open up.
I hope I could help.
Quote from: A on December 10, 2011, 03:18:46 PM
Since you joined, I've been uneasy towards you. Your posts are often crude; sometimes plain unappropriate. But you never feel like a troll, or anything. You feel honest, but in some way distressed. I don't know your whole story, but the glimpses I get of it through your posts feel kind of unhealthy. And you seem like you know something is wrong inside you.
OMFG...LMAO
Why because I don't live in the transworld? Cuz I have the elitist "gay" attitude? Cuz I am upfront about sexuality and my past. I am sorry hun, I know I was born XY and I've accepted it. I happen to like that part in my pants. I am not gonna deny my past...that's idiotic.
There is nothing wrong inside of me, I am secure within myself and successful. I just don't live in the trans "bubble" and don't suspend my believe system. I don't see things through rose colored glasses.
Quote from: A on December 10, 2011, 03:18:46 PM
It's just my own opinion, but I think you might get a great deal of help from a good follow-up with a psychologist, to the conditions that you imply yourself in it responsibly and honestly, and that the professional is comfortable with gender issues/differences and will not focus on that as being your only, obvious problem. I think something, deep inside you, needs to be soothed... But even though I don't stalk you for posts, nor do I know if you're like that in your everyday life, you feel like you easily get sarcastic, "aggressive". You're going to have to open up.
I hope I could help.
No you can't. I don't even know you... LMAO
I am sorry. I don't support gender therapists or other people in the community "helping". I'd rather go get help from my drag queen and transgender performer friends. I feel the therapists ignore an important part of transition...that is staying grounded in reality. I had a therapist and I was pretty much "secure" and ready to go the day I showed up. I have no family or anything...No commitments, so I am not hurting anyone. I loved when the old married transitioner in the group insisted on coaching me how to act "lady like"... Shrink attitudes...LOL
Btw, I am extremely shaddow, sarcastic, arrogant, superficial and aggressive in real life. It's just how I am...
I think, based on what little knowledge I have, that TG/TS/CD/Gay etc are probably descriptions of a continuum...although it's not strictly "this" or "that"; one can have elements of one label, while elements of another label might dominate the person's (public) presentation and/or (private, inner) self-awareness.
For myself, I am what I am...and I'm happy with where I'm going.
Sigh, I guess I am wrong. I won't burden you any more.
Quote from: A on December 10, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
Sigh, I guess I am wrong. I won't burden you any more.
I never said your burdened me. LOL
Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 10, 2011, 04:46:12 PM
I think, based on what little knowledge I have, that TG/TS/CD/Gay etc are probably descriptions of a continuum...although it's not strictly "this" or "that"; one can have elements of one label, while elements of another label might dominate the person's (public) presentation and/or (private, inner) self-awareness.
For myself, I am what I am...and I'm happy with where I'm going.
Thank you...you got it!!
I feel like a gay man inside, but it's my personal identity...But want to present as a female outside. trust me, hang out in the gay community long enough and you'll see all the variations. People who say, "gay men are attracted to masculine men and not transgirls/femmies" has never had an A4A account where most people thought i was an FTM when I was living as a boy...LOL
Gay men are as varied as straight men.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 04:54:33 PM
Thank you...you got it!!
I feel like a gay man inside, but it's my personal identity...But want to present as a female outside. trust me, hang out in the gay community long enough and you'll see all the variations. People who say, "gay men are attracted to masculine men and not transgirls/femmies" has never had an A4A account where most people thought i was an FTM when I was living as a boy...LOL
Gay men are as varied as straight men.
So, with ail due respect, I am just trying to understand your post above, and do nnot want to insult you. You are a gay man who whants to present as female in the outside to attract male gays who like gay males who look like a female. Is this right ?
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
OMFG...LMAO
Btw, I am extremely shaddow, sarcastic, arrogant, superficial and aggressive in real life. It's just how I am...
That is about the smoothest antithesis to being a "good (boy/girl) scout" I have ever heard :) - but I can't buy the superficial. You care not where the wind blows, you have, and will continue, to follow your own direction and heart.
Inasmuch as I can never fulfill all that some say is required to meet a "standardized" definition of transsexual, woman, man or Goddess, I can and do embrace and admire the broad diversity these terms engender. To paraphrase Beth Andrea: For myself, I am what I am... and I'm at peace with my inner self.
Though I may not always agree with what you say, you leave little doubt about what you are saying in a reader's mind.
Susan
Masha you fascinate me!
You're just the opposite of me!
I never get into DQ or much transvestitism because also if I repressed it I considered myself a woman, and tought that dressing proper clothes came only after sex-change, this is probably also the reason why I never come out completely and today I am still fighting for it.
It's like something in my mind, every time I want to be more feminine, tells me "you don't have a vag, you have beard you're fat, you're tall you look a total disaster and so on", and it's like i have let this fear grow to such level to prefer to live in the closet, and choosing "unlife" as a man instead of a life as a woman.
You, just at the opposite, define yourself by everyday actions more than categories, but also live the difficulties of other people categorizing you!
I think we both maybe will run trough our journey in opposite directions, for sure I will try to live more as the female I am inside fighting more my own illusion, but I don't know if you'll also take steps further trough transition toward what usually defines a woman ( the vag ) getting rid of the little gay male!
Anyway I think that men, gay or ether, must be crazy to not pay enough attention to you, looking instead once at the makeup once at the genitalia. You're a smart sexy person. You deserve nor categories.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 05:25:16 PM
So, with ail due respect, I am just trying to understand your post above, and do nnot want to insult you. You are a gay man who whants to present as female in the outside to attract male gays who like gay males who look like a female. Is this right ?
No, meaning I can't change what I was born because it's at a spiritual level. I prefer gay men...But straight men are nice too. LOL
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 05:25:16 PM
So, with ail due respect, I am just trying to understand your post above, and do nnot want to insult you. You are a gay man who whants to present as female in the outside to attract male gays who like gay males who look like a female. Is this right ?
I see you smited too for expressing my opinion. LMAO... I'm toxic baby! Truth is, you smited me for who I am... Wow, class act Jen61. LOL
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRtZwFcqkUDQdwkzNgrkhwCrmTQycdrtXI1196_UejOBwoJONQxQjVFF9FhxQ&hash=79793d6325556a37ef1c118a8feed7e2370f3ee5)
Please don't make this a new nonsense topic filled with self envy and few respect....
I hope jen is not the second personality of Masha claiming she must Do the sospired operation!
Cuz I have the elitist "gay" attitude?
To be fair, it's not like the 'gays' have corner on elitism in the Bay Area. South Park's episode on 'smug' was pretty much dead on. That's why I - and just about everyone else in the SF area cracks up whenever all those red-state people talk about 'exporting SF values' (which if it happened would only make Topeka and Omaha better places). It's funny because we don't care about those places at all. They don't enter into our thinking (except to remember what it was we were trying to get away from when we got here) and 'our give-a-damn' is pretty much busted when we try to empathize with them. It's all 'fly-over' country* to most of us, though they seem to worry much more about us in a day then we have about them since the beginning of time.
As for what it is - well... It's whatever the person who wants to say they are feels it is (TS is a 100% self-identified and self-verified condition). And that was the rather vague definition agreed upon in the beginning, despite many warnings that it would be all but impossible to actually have it mean anything specific in the end. And you can't say that only SRS qualifies you as that excludes most of the FtMs from ever being TS.
Btw, I am extremely shaddow, sarcastic, arrogant, superficial and aggressive in real life. It's just how I am...
Oh honey, you say that like those are bad things. First of all the opposite of arrogant is the kind of constant self-doubt that keeps most of the people here from any real interaction, and from any action. Given the choice between no doubt and constant doubt, the first is the much better way to live. Sure it's gets people like that into some pretty spectacular train wrecks, but constant doubt ensures you never get your train on the tracks in the first place. And, at least it's outward. Self-doubt is just an inward downward spiral.
And the inner-beauty of arrogance is responsibility. Self-doubters, it's NEVER their fault (can't be, they see themselves as powerless), it's society, it's the culture, it's some cartoon show making a joke - it's anything and everything BUT them. Arrogant people will always take the blame, because blame is a constant companion of power. Heavy lies the head that wears the crown and all that.
Sarcasm is just a rational way of dealing with the amount of junk floating around in a totally irrational world. "Yeah, sure" is a perfect way of expressing a healthy and proper contempt without having to actually argue with the marching morons.
Aggressive is very sexy. Humans tend to worship aggressive and denounce the opposite for lots of pretty good reasons.
And I would think that shallow and superficial is an ideal mindset for someone doing cosmetics, which is a shrine to the superficial. And hey, of course it's shallow, beauty is only skin deep (but ugly goes all the way down to the bone.) I'm totally down with the shallow and superficial (and their super-power, the created image). Anyone doing rock concerts who thinks that anything about it is even vaguely deep and meaningful is an idiot. Like 'Heavy Metal' - strip off the dumb outfits, the Halloween/Satanic/Occult kindergarten level sets, the bad haircuts and all you have is four geeks playing three chords. It ain't rocket science, and it sure ain't Mozart or Miles Davis. And that's not a condemnation, if you actually tried to do anything deep and meaningful, complex and intricate full of substance - well, you've just lost 99% of the people in the audience.
Besides, if you read the posts you'll find that what most people think of as being 'male' and 'female' are nothing more than materialistic consumer choices - "I liked Barbie or Hot Wheels" - as if gender is determined by a shopping list as opposed to inner values and core behaviors. That dear, is superficial and shallow on a level that is far beyond you.
* - From the notion that the US is really just the East Coast and the West Coast with a 6 hour plane flight between them. In it's most perfect incarnation it's that the US is LA and NYC and not much else.
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2011, 06:47:59 PM
Cuz I have the elitist "gay" attitude?
To be fair, it's not like the 'gays' have corner on elitism in the Bay Area. South Park's episode on 'smug' was pretty much dead on. That's why I - and just about everyone else in the SF area cracks up whenever all those red-state people talk about 'exporting SF values' (which if it happened would only make Topeka and Omaha better places). It's funny because we don't care about those places at all. They don't enter into our thinking (except to remember what it was we were trying to get away from when we got here) and 'our give-a-damn' is pretty much busted when we try to empathize with them. It's all 'fly-over' country* to most of us, though they seem to worry much more about us in a day then we have about them since the beginning of time.
As for what it is - well... It's whatever the person who wants to say they are feels it is (TS is a 100% self-identified and self-verified condition). And that was the rather vague definition agreed upon in the beginning, despite many warnings that it would be all but impossible to actually have it mean anything specific in the end. And you can't say that only SRS qualifies you as that excludes most of the FtMs from ever being TS.
Btw, I am extremely shaddow, sarcastic, arrogant, superficial and aggressive in real life. It's just how I am...
Oh honey, you say that like those are bad things. First of all the opposite of arrogant is the kind of constant self-doubt that keeps most of the people here from any real interaction, and from any action. Given the choice between no doubt and constant doubt, the first is the much better way to live. Sure it's gets people like that into some pretty spectacular train wrecks, but constant doubt ensures you never get your train on the tracks in the first place. And, at least it's outward. Self-doubt is just an inward downward spiral.
And the inner-beauty of arrogance is responsibility. Self-doubters, it's NEVER their fault (can't be, they see themselves as powerless), it's society, it's the culture, it's some cartoon show making a joke - it's anything and everything BUT them. Arrogant people will always take the blame, because blame is a constant companion of power. Heavy lies the head that wears the crown and all that.
Sarcasm is just a rational way of dealing with the amount of junk floating around in a totally irrational world. "Yeah, sure" is a perfect way of expressing a healthy and proper contempt without having to actually argue with the marching morons.
Aggressive is very sexy. Humans tend to worship aggressive and denounce the opposite for lots of pretty good reasons.
And I would think that shallow and superficial is an ideal mindset for someone doing cosmetics, which is a shrine to the superficial. And hey, of course it's shallow, beauty is only skin deep (but ugly goes all the way down to the bone.) I'm totally down with the shallow and superficial (and their super-power, the created image). Anyone doing rock concerts who thinks that anything about it is even vaguely deep and meaningful is an idiot. Like 'Heavy Metal' - strip off the dumb outfits, the Halloween/Satanic/Occult kindergarten level sets, the bad haircuts and all you have is four geeks playing three chords. It ain't rocket science, and it sure ain't Mozart or Miles Davis. And that's not a condemnation, if you actually tried to do anything deep and meaningful, complex and intricate full of substance - well, you've just lost 99% of the people in the audience.
Besides, if you read the posts you'll find that what most people think of as being 'male' and 'female' are nothing more than materialistic consumer choices - "I liked Barbie or Hot Wheels" - as if gender is determined by a shopping list as opposed to inner values and core behaviors. That dear, is superficial and shallow on a level that is far beyond you.
* - From the notion that the US is really just the East Coast and the West Coast with a 6 hour plane flight between them. In it's most perfect incarnation it's that the US is LA and NYC and not much else.
We are digressing. After 17,000 plus post, certainly you Tekla must have a good definition of what is a transsexual woman, please share
I did. It's whatever the person who wants to say they are feels it is (TS is a 100% self-identified and self-verified condition).
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 06:40:23 PM
I see you smited too for expressing my opinion. LMAO... I'm toxic baby! Truth is, you smited me for who I am... Wow, class act Jen61. LOL
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRtZwFcqkUDQdwkzNgrkhwCrmTQycdrtXI1196_UejOBwoJONQxQjVFF9FhxQ&hash=79793d6325556a37ef1c118a8feed7e2370f3ee5)
Following guidance from the the forum moderators I will keep this issue out of the public forum. Please feel free to PM
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:04:37 PM
We are digressing. After 17,000 plus post, certainly you Tekla must have a good definition of what is a transsexual woman, please share
You want her to define something personal?
Even though humans are extraordinarily complex and there are endless variations in any condition....
As if people who fall outside the definition aren't transsexuals...It doesn't work like that. What are you really tryin to prove? I see you as a woman, so do the other people here.
Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 06:47:43 PM
Please don't make this a new nonsense topic filled with self envy and few respect....
I hope jen is not the second personality of Masha claiming she must Do the sospired operation!
No Chuck Pulchinik stuff here. jen61 and I are too very different persons... A yin and yang of the transsexual community.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:26:48 PM
You want her to define something personal?
Even though humans are extraordinarily complex and there are endless variations in any condition....
As if people who fall outside the definition aren't transsexuals...It doesn't work like that. What are you really tryin to prove? I see you as a woman, so do the other people here.
I am sure Tekla can speak for ..... self, but by all means why you do not give us your defintion of what a transsexual woman is ?
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:34:12 PM
I am sure Tekla can speak for ..... self, but by all means why you do not give us your defintion of what a transsexual woman is ?
Someone who was born XY taking up the appearances, mannerisms of a conceptualized female that they see themselves as, either by product of environment or personal views. May or may not have been born with GID or not.
It is also a umbrella term covering drags, tv/cds, etc
Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 06:47:43 PM
Please don't make this a new nonsense topic filled with self envy and few respect....
I hope jen is not the second personality of Masha claiming she must Do the sospired operation!
What is "sospired operation" senorina ?
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
May or may not have been born with GID or not.
Are you telling me that youbelive GID is in some case acquiered post natally ?
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:44:06 PM
Are you telling me that youbelive GID is in some case acquiered post natally ?
I think in some cases, people use it to justify their transsexualism.
I think environment influences transition more than any chromosomes. As the brain grows, people change and find different things they are interested in.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:31:18 PM
No Chuck Pulchinik stuff here. jen61 and I are too very different persons... A yin and yang of the transsexual community.
It's a pity, this sometimes, often, too personal arguing could end easily that way...hope jens understands many are not interested in a continuous fight towards searches of definitions, but more in some healty tip to share to move on, to go forward in the everyday battle. Also because I suspect Jen wants to make some nazi-trans-purity-doctrine that wouldn't include me or many of us.
As for me i fall into the chuck palanuck sthereotype without fight but with much pain, and i assure you I came here because i want to move on, seeing people that have yet walked on similar steps ( for as much similar can be two different people's steps ) and that living in an unlucky little country i can't meet in normal life, and maybe even sharing what I have passed yet for the ones that will came after me...
I find that this arguing is the main activity and I don't like it... Even dating tips are better than that... Also if i would prefeer just hugs and cheers or funny things in this moment in wich nothing is more far from me than a date.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
conceptualize by whom?
I don't think transsexualism is a genetic trait. But is rather learned. Using my ex's child as an example...her dad my ex is a homosexual man and her mom is our former fruitfly and is a bisexual female raised her to be a girl, if she decides later she wants to be more like her dad... she might eventually use the concept of her dad, who is a masculine gay man to justify her GID or transsexualism.
If a child was raised by genderless robots, would it be male or female? Gender is another concept. A personalized concept of self. Some people fall into society's view of gender, others don't conform. it doesn't make either right or wrong.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
It is also a umbrella term covering drags, tv/cds, etc
I beg to disagree, TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals.
Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 07:48:59 PM
It's a pity, this sometimes, often, too personal arguing could end easily that way...hope jens understands many are not interested in a continuous fight towards searches of definitions, but more in some healty tip to share to move on, to go forward in the everyday battle. Also because I suspect Jen wants to make some nazi-trans-purity-doctrine that wouldn't include me or many of us.
You can throw doctors behind any dsyphoric disorder. It still doesnt' change that someone is like the rest of us...Born with a penis between their legs. Of course, she's an individual and she's not for the greater good. Just her own...her motivations for that? I don't know or care.
Of course, someones definition of how everyone should be is how they first consider themself or not....
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:49:18 PM
I don't think transsexualism is a genetic trait. But is rather learned. Using my ex's child as an example...her dad my ex is a homosexual man and her mom is our former fruitfly and is a bisexual female raised her to be a girl, if she decides later she wants to be more like her dad... she might eventually use the concept of her dad, who is a masculine gay man to justify her GID or transsexualism.
If a child was raised by genderless robots, would it be male or female? Gender is another concept. A personalized concept of self. Some people fall into society's view of gender, others don't conform. it doesn't make either right or wrong.
The last ten year has seen an explosion on our understanding of the neurological basis of TS. There are several genes who are critical in making the BST, which is a small nucleus in the brain, either male or female. The data seems to indicate that this center (BST) is mostly responsible for your gender identity. Mutations to a number of genes seems to prevent BST from becoming masculine in some XY fetuses. Mutations to one of this genes, aromatase gene, was found in TS people, and the TS BTS was identical to those of a XX-female.
There is also emerging evidence that some forms of GID do run in families.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:59:47 PM
The last ten year has seen an explosion on our understanding of the neurological basis of TS. There are several genes who are critical in making the BST, which is a small nucleus in the brain, either male or female. The data seems to indicate that this center (BST) is mostly responsible for your gender identity. Mutations to a number of genes seems to prevent BST from becoming masculine in some XY fetuses. Mutations to one of this genes, aromatase gene, was found in TS people, and the TS BTS was identical to those of a XX-female.
There is also emerging evidence that some forms of GID do run in families.
You can justify the brain/gene theories any way you want. A person's sex is usually determined by the part between their legs, which also determines secondary sexual characteristics.
I was raised by two Lez women with NO FATHER..... That probably had to have influenced my transition in some subconcious way.
Quote from: Sweet Blue Girl on December 10, 2011, 07:48:59 PM
It's a pity, this sometimes, often, too personal arguing could end easily that way...hope jens understands many are not interested in a continuous fight towards searches of definitions, but more in some healty tip to share to move on, to go forward in the everyday battle. Also because I suspect Jen wants to make some nazi-trans-purity-doctrine that wouldn't include me or many of us.
As for me i fall into the chuck palanuck sthereotype without fight but with much pain, and i assure you I came here because i want to move on, seeing people that have yet walked on similar steps ( for as much similar can be two different people's steps ) and that living in an unlucky little country i can't meet in normal life, and maybe even sharing what I have passed yet for the ones that will came after me...
I find that this arguing is the main activity and I don't like it... Even dating tips are better than that... Also if i would prefeer just hugs and cheers or funny things in this moment in wich nothing is more far from me than a date.
I took the warning that i got from the forum moderator very serious, so i have been very careful as not to make my post very personal.
Mahsa and I disagree over some issues like the present issue, Mahsa contention is that TS is acquired trait, I contend that it is a biological/gentic condition.
I am respectfully presenting my options in the matter. No offense intended
HolyMother, this is SO slipping into relativist territory now...
Meaning that following this discourse a transsexual woman can just be -anything- so long one claims it for oneself?
If the 'environment' of e.g. a dog (not a bitch mind you) would serve well - and he could speak - he too might just be a transsexual female.
Well done,
Axélle
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 08:03:30 PM
You can justify the brain/gene theories any way you want. A person's sex is usually determined by the part between their legs, which also determines secondary sexual characteristics.
I was raised by two Lez women with NO FATHER..... That probably had to have influenced my transition in some subconcious way.
Wait a minute darling, i thought we were talking about gender identity, not about sex, as we have discussed before they have nothing to do with each other
I just want to invite you to admit that apart from knowing if someone is Ts and showing your verbal skills this post doesn't add nothing to the community!
Yes it's genetic it's science!
But, no if someone feels woman and don't want srs we can't discriminate, because she just knows what it's best for her at that time!
Yes drag queens are not ts although some start to express femininity in that way so yes some dq are Ts so again we shouldn't discriminate.
Basically we shouldn't discriminate whatsoever.
Definitions after definitions we don't go nowhere.
If for Masha femininity is staying like she wants, and believing in what she believes, also the wrong parts, and she gets a decent life from it, cheers!
I know what is femininity for me, and from what i know of science, and I'ma a f*** engineer, and still the definitions don't make me happy a bit more than I am. Instead living in a different city and environmental conditions probably would! Basically Masha is wrong about definitions of Ts but knows well the conditions that help a Ts to live better or maybe easier.
Living in an ethero contest is tougher, all the definitions don't help that much.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 08:14:46 PM
Wait a minute darling, i thought we were talking about gender identity, not about sex, as we have discussed before they have nothing to do with each other
Look I'm with you and plenty others too - but recall: "behind all such assumptions are just some doctors that find it is their 'thing' to make such claims."
Lower stratum of the BSTc area variations between male and female are just brain farts of these folks - according to some, that is.
So, if it suits you, you just start to feel like a female and so you are a transsexual woman, easy peacy.
Some arguments are just not worth to pursue, like "we never landed on the moon..." in deed "I" didn't.
Also I had SRS because I'm into body modifications? Hey, why NOT?!
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
Look I'm with you and plenty others too - but recall: "behind all such assumptions are just some doctors that find it is their 'thing' to make such claims."
Lower stratum of the BSTc area variations between male and female are just brain farts of these folks - according to some, that is.
So, if it suits you, you just start to feel like a female and so you are a transsexual woman, easy peacy.
Some arguments are just not worth to pursue, like "we never landed on the moon..." in deed "I" didn't.
Also I had SRS because I'm into body modifications? Hey, why NOT?!
Axélle
Under normal circumstances I will let your post go unresponded, but the issues at hand is to important to be summarly dismisse because soembody just "farted the other way"
There are many peer-review publicantions that indicated that there is not only the the BST, but also the Putmane, IH3, and cingula, and others, that have been ascribed as having a role in gender identity.
By chosing to ignore what it is so you will chose to live in a place near reality
I have come to discuss the ongoing hostilities like the rest of the great warriors.
I'm not sure if this is the case but there seems to be a confusion between parties and their uses of different words and phrases. For example; Masha seems use transsexual as an encompassing term for people whom which differ from their assigned gender/sex from drags to full MtFs, Jen on the other hand sees transsexual as the doctors text book definition. So Jen takes it that Masha was to imply that TS is a learned trait and not biological she took it to mean like full blown GID is something you learn.
If I'm wrong, well then I'm with Jen on this one, there's no way this soul crushing dysphoria is something I learnt growing up.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 08:42:55 PM
Under normal circumstances I will let your post go unresponded, but the issues at hand is to important to be summarly dismisse because soembody just "farted the other way"
There are many peer-review publicantions that indicated that there is not only the the BST, but also the Putmane, IH3, and cingula, and others, that have been ascribed as having a role in gender identity.
By chosing to ignore what it is so you will chose to live in a place near reality
*
Under normal circumstances I [would] let your post go unresponded [too]... *
But well said, and thank you for helping to ground my neo-vj in some more reality.
Or as one might say... what ever blows your hair back :-)
Just try and loosen up a little it be more 'feminine' also...
Axélle
Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 10, 2011, 08:44:36 PM
I have come to discuss the ongoing hostilities like the rest of the great warriors.
I'm not sure if this is the case but there seems to be a confusion between parties and their uses of different words and phrases. For example; Masha seems use transsexual as an encompassing term for people whom which differ from their assigned gender/sex from drags to full MtFs, Jen on the other hand sees transsexual as the doctors text book definition. So Jen takes it that Masha was to imply that TS is a learned trait and not biological she took it to mean like full blown GID is something you learn.
If I'm wrong, well then I'm with Jen on this one, there's no way this soul crushing dysphoria is something I learnt growing up.
Well said :)
TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals
And you know that how? Talk to all of them? How many of those people do you know IRL? Right.
Turns out - and we've seen it time and time again - that lots of people who think they are TS are not. And I'm sure that many who are either try to deny it, or refuse the label because they don't want to be put in a group of people that includes people like you. I know several people who did drag, or cross-dressed and eventually transitioned. Hell the old joke was: What's the difference between a CD and a TS? Ten years.
Everyone is on a road to somewhere. Few know the real destination, but the road goes on anyway.
As for the Nurture/Nature debate I'll leave it to all you internet PhDs to solve an argument that has been going on in biology and behavioral science for over a hundred year now. But, in the end, you're going to find (as they did) that it's a combination of the two. You may be biologically predisposed, but there has to be the right kind of environment conditions for it to come about. And environmental conditions have everything to do with how you handle it once it emerges.
What is a transsexual woman?
A genetic male who's gender identity is female.
What causes it?
It's believed to be a mental disorder causes by an increase in hormones or prenatal meds during pregnancy, but really nobody knows.
Gift or a curse?
That's for you to decide. ;)
Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 10, 2011, 09:45:18 PM
What is a transsexual woman?
A genetic male who's gender identity is female.
What causes it?
It's believed to be a mental disorder causes by an increase in hormones or prenatal meds during pregnancy, but really nobody knows.
Gift or a curse?
That's for you to decide. ;)
Nothing to add.
Joelene
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2011, 09:37:50 PM
TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals
And you know that how? Talk to all of them? How many of those people do you know IRL? Right.
I've known all variations since I was younger. I was a gay male in SF....I've met all types.
Many people aren't used to the fact that a lot of transsexual women used to be drag queens. Rumor has it, Carmen Carrera from RuPaul's drag Race is transitioning...
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 10:38:05 PM
I've known all variations since I was younger. I was a gay male in SF....I've met all types.
Many people aren't used to the fact that a lot of transsexual women used to be drag queens. Rumor has it, Carmen Carrera from RuPaul's drag Race is transitioning...
Kia Ora Elle,
::) So after 50 odd posts are you any closer to finding out what a transsexual woman is ?
Metta Zenda :)
Well Mahsa thinks we learn GID by learning (nurture)... and she didn't.
All the other findings are crock, as in bad science.
So then it seems she's just a bad learner for GID, or a slow developer?
Doing all this girl stuff just for fun only and $$$, is like what TVs are all about.
That's all I know about on that subject, and as Tekla pointed out also.
Wondering who is now 'trannier than thou'?
Axélle
Quote from: Jen61 on December 10, 2011, 07:50:25 PM
I beg to disagree, TV/CDS, drags do not consider themselves transexuals.
Amanda Leopore, Jessica Savano, Candis Cayne, Calpurnia Addams, the list goes on...several transwomen are also transgender performers like me.
Do you have something against a gay man being feminine though? I mean you did used to present as a straight man with six kids, and our old selves exist as one in our true selves. Many straight men and lesbians are bothered by the display of gay male femininity...the no hold bars fabulousity and bitchiness which scares them and their traditional gender values. I know my Mom and Aunt were bothered that their "son" could do makeup and hair instead of playing sports and dating girls. Then there's the drag queen aspect... My parents had friends who were...But it was not allowed in the house.
But drag queens. It's no different than a crossdresser...they just do it fabulous and for show.... I've hung out with several drag queens and they are better friends than some of my GG friends. I wanted to make over my lover who passed on, and he was so beautiful. He was 5'3", part Turkish, with the most adorable face. His ex was a DQ as well...
They seem more like women in my eyes.... I'd be a total ladydragonMom if I wasn't tethered by my boyfriend. Since I've learned more in my transition from drag queens, gay men, and my fellow transgender performers(Not DQ) then I will ever learn from Susan Stryker or Kate Borestein or some older transitioners who seem to want to educate on me what a "woman" is. Because really, if we're going by who's more of a "woman". I think KukiSuki has us all beat.
Quote from: Axélle on December 11, 2011, 12:30:25 AM
Well Mahsa thinks we learn GID by learning (nurture)... and she didn't.
All the other findings are crock, as in bad science.
So then it seems she's just a bad learner for GID, or a slow developer?
Doing all this girl stuff just for fun only and $$$, is like what TVs are all about.
That's all I know about on that subject, and as Tekla pointed out also.
Wondering who is now 'trannier than thou'?
Axélle
Going on my previous assumptions being wrong, if this is a case of "my trans experience is the only real one" then, well.
If Masha feels that she became TS through nurture over nature then perhaps she did, and it would be silly to deny that TG performers are any less TG than other trans people I'm sure many transgirls start out their adventure as drags queens, transvestites, etc, perhaps it is a way of release from GID such as how others deal with GID in a different ways, I myself unable to put on a manly facade or and lacking the confidence to come out ended up reclusing into a shell so no one would see the real me. However that does not mean being TS is learned behavior, as me and I'm sure many other trans people never had any interaction with any sort of gender bending people thoughout our lives where it really does seem to be a case of being "born this way". And this of course does not mean those of us who never had any sort of performance life style are any more trans than people who have.
In the end whether there is definitive proof whether it is nature or nurture or a combination people are still going to argue about it and there will still be trans girls and boys.
I had "no interaction with any sort of gender bending people throughout my live..." either.
In fact I only cross-dressed 2 times I can ever recall in 40 years, and that was for Halloween during my Air-Force time, and some or other party in the 70s.
I had much later minor contact with some lesbians (ex's lover and friends), a gay male (son's ex-teacher) with sometimes an odd friend of his.
All this would, I suggest to make me bolt straight - yet here I am transsexual.
Never could tune into male-gay sexually. They of course tuned into me – but got frustrated by my "doing the talk and not walking the walk" i.e. getting laid, doing anal, admiring dick, but I just don't for care for it – really not.
It may well be this huge diversity in background that makes it so tricky to fit us all under one cap/umbrella?
Thanks for the input,
Axélle
I haven't had any direct contact with any homosexual people really, apart from one guy in my high school who was never openly gay and only recently came out now that I hardly talk with him anymore. And it's the same for me as well, I could never be a homosexual male, hell it never even crossed my mind when I was figuring things out it was and always has been "I'm a girl".
But yeah, there are so many varying trans experiences yet we all share a common goal, at least to an extent, some people a little further than others. The problem is, is that people tend to think theirs is the only "true" one.
Doctoral Theses from University of Gothenburg /\nDoktorsavhandlingar från Göteborgs universite
Incidence sex ratio gender identity disorder regret phenomenology attitudes aromatase androgen receptor estrogen receptor candidate gene
Description: Transsexualism denotes a condition in which the gender identity-the personal sense of being a man or a woman-contradicts the bodily sex characteristics. This thesis is based on three
independent surveys about transsexualism.
FIRST, all 233 subjects applying for sex reassignment in Sweden during 1972-1992 were retrospectively examined through medical records. The incidence of applying for sex reassignment was 0.17/100,000 individuals over 15 years of age and per year. The male-to-female (M-F)/female-to-male (F-M) ratio was 1.4/1. With the exception of an incidence peak related to the legislation regulating sex reassignment in the early 1970s, the incidence has remained fairly stable since the first estimates in Sweden in the late 1960s. The M-F (n=134) and F-M (n=99) groups were phenomenologically compared. M-F transsexuals were older, and more often had a history of marriage and children than their F-M counterparts. M-F transsexuals also had more heterosexual experience. F-M transsexuals, on the other hand, more frequently reported cross-gender behaviour in childhood than did M-F transsexuals. It is concluded that transsexualism is manifested differently in males and females. The regret frequency (defined as applying for reversal to the original sex) was 3.8%. Prognostic factors for regret were, 'a poor support from the family', and 'belonging to the secondary group of transsexuals' (denotes people who develop transsexualism only after a significant period of transvestism or homosexuality). SECOND, 28 M-F transsexuals and 30 male controls were investigated. To test the hypothesis that genes coding for proteins involved in the sexual differentiation of the brain influence the susceptibility of transsexualism, we analysed: (1) a tetra nucleotide polymorphism of the aromatase gene, (2) a CAG repeat sequence in the first exon of the gene coding for the androgen receptor, and (3) a CA repeat polymorphism of the estrogen receptor beta gene. Results support the notion that the gender identity is related to the sex steroid-driven sexual differentiation of the brain, and that certain genetic variants of three of the genes critically involved in this process, may enhance the susceptibility for transsexualism.THIRD, a questionnaire comprising questions about attitudes towards transsexualism and transsexuals was mailed to a random national sample (n=998) of Swedish residents, 18-75 years of age. The response rate was 67%. The results showed that a majority supports the possibility for transsexuals to undergo sex reassignment. However, 63% thought that the individual should bear the expenses for it. In addition, a majority supported the transsexuals' right to get married in their new sex, and their right to work with children. Transsexuals' right to adopt and raise children was supported by 43% whereas 41% opposed this. The results indicated that those who believed that transsexualism is caused by psychological factors had a more restrictive view on transsexualism than people who held a biological view
My take on this question is based on the Existentialism I have come to realise I have been practicing since I started transition.
What meaning we attach to the term is determined by our consciousness, and what choices we make as a result.
Mahsa has made certain choices in her life, Axe'lle has made others, and I have made different ones again. These have led to different actions. All are equally valid.
Whether Mahsa doesn't accept the data provided by the latest research is irrelevant. What matters to her is her choices and actions. As long as she doesn't try to force her opinions on others, I will treat her's with respect, and defend her right to hold them, even if I believe she is mistaken. If she doesn't treat others with the respect they deserve I will call her out on that.
There is an urgent need to resurrect the qualities of respect, nobility and dignity, here and in society generally. They are not something that belongs to the Roman Republic or Medieval Knights, but something we can practice in our daily lives now.
To me a "transsexual woman", is a woman with a transsexual history. It is two words, it is not the person themselves, who is unique and so beyond precise definition.
And that's my two bob's worth. Karen.
Well, I think it is difficult for most of you guys to understaqnd where Masha is coming from, but I do - because like her, I've been actively invovled in the LGBT community so I've seen people from all walks of life.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi273.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj209%2Fjayrocksufu%2Fsisko_facepalm.gif&hash=e7e5f1fa3d673cdb53475e006bd4976d7146959a)
Kia Ora,
::) I have heard of at least one person who calls herself 'a reluctant transsexual' this person was in her words an effeminate child and was on a regular bases sexually abused as a child, she now believes this had something to do with her wanting a sex change...
::) So as you can see there's more than one reason as to why transsexual women believe they are transsexual women...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 02:08:10 PM
Kia Ora,
::) I have heard of at least one person who calls herself 'a reluctant transsexual' this person was in her words an effeminate child and was on a regular bases sexually abused as a child, she now believes this had something to do with her wanting a sex change...
::) So as you can see there's more than one reason as to why transsexual women believe they are transsexual women...
Metta Zenda :)
A guy walk in an emergency room and demand SRS to match his female identity. Family reports he has never vocalized or demonstrated any CD/TG/TS/TV. For the next three days his demands continue. On the fourth day he stops his demands for SRS and his class to be female. Toxicological examination demonstrated high level of some of the ingredients present in the nasal inhaler Vicks; patient acknowledge having smoked the contents of of a vicks inhaler.
No doubt that the mind can be bent and change by trauma or drugs, but here we are talking about the majority of TS people. As I posted before GID is biological in origen and no doubt modified by environmental and sociological factors.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:36:12 PM
, but here we are talking about the majority of TS people. As I posted before GID is biological in origen and no doubt modified by environmental and sociological factors.
Kia Ora Jen,
::) A transsexual is a transsexual is a transsexual...No matter what direction one is coming from, it's all subjective..."I think [I am] therefore I am [transsexual] !"...But only time will tell if this thought holds any truth !
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 02:36:12 PM
A guy walk in an emergency room and demand SRS to match his female identity. Family reports he has never vocalized or demonstrated any CD/TG/TS/TV. For the next three days his demands continue. On the fourth day he stops his demands for SRS and his class to be female.
You seem to have a lot of proof on chromosomes, psychological evidence for why you're female. What are you tryin to prove? That your more female than the rest of us. From your "I was always female" stuff. The stuff I always hear from older transitioners... It seems to be an endless mantra by older transitioners. While I completely understand why they say such... Other people have different perspectives on transsexual identity that don't match the textbook examples.
I support you Jen61, but you've also had six children and were married for 20+ years. I definitely think there's some overcompensation going on. Much of our conflict has been because I have no problem with my past, I am not gonna deny that I was a gay male or anything. That person I was years ago is still me. You on the other hand, were living your life in a very traditional masculine role for the past 20+ years. You presented as a straight man and although you're a lez now, I don't think the apple falls from the tree. A straight man and a lez woman are polar opposites in many aspects. Transition rarely changes personality and the soul is always the same.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 03:29:52 PM
You seem to have a lot of proof on chromosomes, psychological evidence for why you're female. What are you tryin to prove? That your more female than the rest of us. From your "I was always female" stuff. The stuff I always hear from older transitioners... It seems to be an endless mantra by older transitioners. While I completely understand why they say such... Other people have different perspectives on transsexual identity that don't match the textbook examples.
I support you Jen61, but you've also had six children and were married for 20+ years. I definitely think there's some overcompensation going on. Much of our conflict has been because I have no problem with my past, I am not gonna deny that I was a gay male or anything. That person I was years ago is still me. You on the other hand, were living your life in a very traditional masculine role for the past 20+ years. You presented as a straight man and although you're a lez now, I don't think the apple falls from the tree. A straight man and a lez woman are polar opposites in many aspects. Transition rarely changes personality and the soul is always the same.
I am at awe at the clarity of your thinking. Who am I to argue with you ? All I have to say is "Amen"
I consider myself transgendered because i vary from traditional gender roles, its a blanket term. I consider myself transexual because i have and for as long as i can remember always have identified my own gender identity as female where my biological gender so to speak is male. Although there is a huge scope of transgendered people i find that my own experiences fit very nicely into the medically pre-defined definitions of these words, transgendered and transexual.
The only time in my life i consider myself to have been a "crossdresser" was when i was in boy-mode pre-transition, the last time i cross dressed was the day before i went full time. Now i accept that many people belive they are transvestites etc and then later realize they are transexuals but i do believe if we are sticking to actual meanings of these words the two are mutually exclusive (unless maybe there was a FTM transexual who did a drag act or some other rare case?)
I believe when the doctors say "only you can decide if you are transexual" they mean only you can decide whether you truelly believe/feel that your internal gender does not match your exterior gender. They do not mean, you can take a word and make it mean something else. Fair play if you dont fit within the definded catagory of what a transexual is, by no means let anyone put you down for it or try to label you somethign you are not, call yourself transgendered and leave it at that or call youself a human being? I just take issue with the hijacking of words that have well defined meanings. It sucks to be labeled as something you dont feel you are and i understand some people in the community loath all of these words and labels BUT the reason for having these labels is for people who DO fit into them to be able to express ideas and have people udnerstand what is trying to be said.
Im sure if i was to say "I identify as a trainspotter because i like to eat cake" people would take an issue in that is not what a trainspotter is.
Quote from: Zenda on December 11, 2011, 02:46:47 PM
Kia Ora Jen,
A transsexual is a transsexual is a transsexual...No matter what direction one is coming from, it's all subjective...
Metta Zenda
But the laws that enslave us, or the absence of law that protect us, or the absence of health service for us are not subjective, they are a reality
Educating the decision makers, religious leaders, and the general public on the biological underpinnings of GID will no doubt will result on la favorable laws and in a changes in public opinion and acceptance.
The results indicated that those who believed that transsexualism is caused by psychological factors had a more restrictive view on transsexualism than people who held a biological view
Its probably worth mentioning. My parents are still together, my father worked as a landscape gardener (very masculine job) and my mother was in sales and marketing before i was born and has been a stay at home mum/ ebay power seller ever since. I have a straight brother who has no trouble with the ladies and I am not aware of any abuse in my past.
Okay, I am in awe of this discussion and quite frankly, I really shouldn't be surprised. Just for kicks, I'll reiterate the dictionary terminology of "transsexual".
Quote
trans·sex·u·al
[trans-sek-shoo-uhl]
noun
1.
a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
Wow, do you see what I see? Or rather do you not see what I don't? It doesn't mention a source of the transsexualism; it doesn't say it must be biological nor does it say it must be caused. Hmm, that's interesting. I'd say the greatest definition of all, is the
actual one because it encompasses all of the thrown around opinions and comments within this thread, into one term; oh look, that term is
transsexual!
I mean, seriously. There is no evidence to support anything as to the source or cause of transsexualism, thus it just is. If you are one gender and have desires to be the opposite, ding ding ding - you win! Aside from society's games and discriminative regulations, there are no try outs, there is no test to pass; if you feel you are transsexual and you can read the above definition and say without a doubt that it applies to you as your belief you are transsexual, then you are. As mentioned, terminology cannot be bent to fit a criteria if is not included in the definition of that term, plain and simple.
I love reading these arguments, I really do. They get no where and no one is going to change their opinion, which is the most fascinating of it all;
it's your opinion. Do you know why "agree to disagree" exists? Because opinions contain
no fact, thus debate of opinion is something that can go on for eternity. Convincing the general public, government and health care providers of transgender needs, does not require the factual knowledge of the source of transsexualism. Why? Because we don't know it, and as soon as we all start bickering with each other as to what we each believe the cause/source of it is, everyone is going to have it in their minds that if we the transsexuals cannot come up with an agreement as to what the hell is going on and why, how can we possibly take them seriously? Anti-discrimination rights exist because of people fighting
for what they believe in as an expression of who they are. Not knowing the cause does not in any way invalidate a true issue and certainly does not attribute to failure in anti-discrimination rights.
Get over yourselves, seriously. Agree to disagree on opinion, and accept that transsexualism has no known factual cause as of yet;
this attitude is what will closely knit our community and aid us in equal rights.
I define myself a transsexual in drag now, continuing the male stereotype till the end of this i hope short time.
I just wish world would come out easier than it is even in this forum.
It's right that definitins are done to understand things, and help people in the beginnings to confront such themes, butwe're far from that self-conscience state, and i guess reality is more than a sum of definitions, otherwise we should have an ID card a mile long.
I think that i trust my soul enough to don't care about definitions anymore, i am just a woman, ->-bleeped-<- for me is the passage from a desolate maleness to my reality, transsexualism is who I am for the society altough I just feel another type of woman, blondes, brunes, redhaireds and transsexuals.
I dont like people who uses science to defend themselves or to attack just as it was a religion. Science tells it's genetic, but we are the ones who make questions to science and search too much or too few, because there are really more than two genders, there are man women and something in between, androginous, intersexed and so on, who knows how many. And if someone doesn't fit into transsexualism genetically but maybe fits in another situation who are we to use our lacking science agains them?
I agree with Gracie on the most part.
I also think that older transsexuals are like pioneers of our history so i pay respect.
But like in every situations age makes people conservative to new frontiers. In the end I dream a word in wich parents will raise their transsexuals childs without all the sufferings I paid because I wasn't understood or i didn't express myself well and I did not understand the answers given. i dream of this world for the children i will never have.
The cause really doesn't matter to me. If someone says they are a woman/man/other, that's enough for me.
Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 11, 2011, 04:21:13 PM
I mean, seriously. There is no evidence to support anything as to the source or cause of transsexualism, thus it just is.
Biol Psychiatry. 2009 Jan 1;65(1):93-6. Epub 2008 Oct 28.
Androgen receptor repeat length polymorphism associated with male-to-female transsexualism.
Hare L, Bernard P, Sánchez FJ, Baird PN, Vilain E, Kennedy T, Harley VR.
Source
Human Molecular Genetics Laboratory, Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR), estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
METHODS:
Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ERbeta gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene and male-to-female transsexualism.
RESULTS:
A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p=.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or ERbeta genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism were identified.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.
Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism
Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism
Lauren Hare, Pascal Bernard, Francisco J. Sánchez, Paul N. Baird, Eric Vilain, Trudy Kennedy,
and Vincent R. Harley. BIOL PSYCHIATRY 2009;65:93–96
Background: There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We
explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization
and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR),
estrogen receptor _ (ER_), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
Methods: Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions
were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ER_ gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene
and male-to-female transsexualism.
Results: A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat
lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p_.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or
ER_ genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism
lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism
were identified.
Conclusions: This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.
Sex steroid-related genes and male-to-female Transsexualism
Susanne Henningssona, Lars Westberga, Staffan Nilssonb,
Bengt Lundstro¨mc, Lisa Ekseliusd, Owe Bodlunde, Eva Lindstro¨md,
Monika Hellstranda, Roland Rosmondf, Elias Erikssona, Mikael Lande´ng,*
Department of Pharmacology, Institute of Physiology and Pharmacology, Go¨teborg University,
Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Mathematical Statistics, Chalmers University of Technology, Go¨teborg, Sweden Section of Psychiatry, Institute of Clinical Neuroscience, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Neuroscience, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden
eDepartment of Psychiatry, UmeaUniversity, Umea, Sweden
fDepartment of Heart and Lung Diseases, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden
gDepartment of Clinical Neuroscience, Section of Psychiatry S:t Go¨ran, Karolinska Institutet,
Stockholm 112 81, Sweden
Received 16 November 2004; received in revised form 12 February 2005; accepted 14 February 2005
Summary Transsexualism is characterised by lifelong discomfort with the
assigned sex and a strong identiÞcation with the opposite sex. The cause of
transsexualism is unknown, but it has been suggested that an aberration in the early
sexual differentiation of various brain structures may be involved. Animal
experiments have revealed that the sexual differentiation of the brain is mainly
due to an inßuence of testosterone, acting both via androgen receptors (ARs) andÑ
after aromatase-catalyzed conversion to estradiolÑvia estrogen receptors (ERs). The
present study examined the possible importance of three polymorphisms and their
pairwise interactions for the development of male-to-female transsexualism: a CAG
repeat sequence in the Þrst exon of the AR gene, a tetra nucleotide repeat
polymorphism in intron 4 of the aromatase gene, and a CA repeat polymorphism in
intron 5 of the ERb gene. Subjects were 29 Caucasian male-to-female transsexuals
and 229 healthy male controls. Transsexuals differed from controls with respect to
the mean length of the ERb repeat polymorphism, but not with respect to the length
of the other two studied polymorphisms. However, binary logistic regression analysis
revealed signiÞcant partial effects for all three polymorphisms, as well as for the
interaction between the AR and aromatase gene polymorphisms, on the risk of
developing transsexualism. Given the small number of transsexuals in the study,
the results should be interpreted with the utmost caution. Further study of the
putative role of these and other sex steroid-related genes for the development of
transsexualism may, however, be worthwhile.
2005 Elsevier Ltd. All
I dont really think you're transsexual, some degree of transgender maybe, but not transsexual
I dont know why im transexual, i just know i am, i think thats all that matters. I believe it to be something biological as i see no environmental factors it could have been but i studied psychology and i know that something as small as a mother panicing about a spider on one occasion in front of a baby can cause life-long arachnaphobia in that child. So i wont discount a environmental influence.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 04:31:36 PM
Biol Psychiatry. 2009 Jan 1;65(1):93-6. Epub 2008 Oct 28.
Androgen receptor repeat length polymorphism associated with male-to-female transsexualism.
Hare L, Bernard P, Sánchez FJ, Baird PN, Vilain E, Kennedy T, Harley VR.
Source
Human Molecular Genetics Laboratory, Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Melbourne, Australia.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR), estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
METHODS:
Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ERbeta gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene and male-to-female transsexualism.
RESULTS:
A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p=.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or ERbeta genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism were identified.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.
Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism
Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism
Lauren Hare, Pascal Bernard, Francisco J. Sánchez, Paul N. Baird, Eric Vilain, Trudy Kennedy,
and Vincent R. Harley. BIOL PSYCHIATRY 2009;65:93–96
Background: There is a likely genetic component to transsexualism, and genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are good candidates. We
explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization
and/or feminization. Specifically, we assessed the role of disease-associated repeat length polymorphisms in the androgen receptor (AR),
estrogen receptor _ (ER_), and aromatase (CYP19) genes.
Methods: Subject-control analysis included 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. Associations and interactions
were investigated between CAG repeat length in the AR gene, CA repeat length in the ER_ gene, and TTTA repeat length in the CYP19 gene
and male-to-female transsexualism.
Results: A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat
lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p_.04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or
ER_ genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism
lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism
were identified.
Conclusions: This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor.
Sex steroid-related genes and male-to-female Transsexualism
Susanne Henningssona, Lars Westberga, Staffan Nilssonb,
Bengt Lundstro¨mc, Lisa Ekseliusd, Owe Bodlunde, Eva Lindstro¨md,
Monika Hellstranda, Roland Rosmondf, Elias Erikssona, Mikael Lande´ng,*
Department of Pharmacology, Institute of Physiology and Pharmacology, Go¨teborg University,
Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Mathematical Statistics, Chalmers University of Technology, Go¨teborg, Sweden Section of Psychiatry, Institute of Clinical Neuroscience, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden Department of Neuroscience, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden
eDepartment of Psychiatry, UmeaUniversity, Umea, Sweden
fDepartment of Heart and Lung Diseases, Go¨teborg University, Go¨teborg, Sweden
gDepartment of Clinical Neuroscience, Section of Psychiatry S:t Go¨ran, Karolinska Institutet,
Stockholm 112 81, Sweden
Received 16 November 2004; received in revised form 12 February 2005; accepted 14 February 2005
Summary Transsexualism is characterised by lifelong discomfort with the
assigned sex and a strong identiÞcation with the opposite sex. The cause of
transsexualism is unknown, but it has been suggested that an aberration in the early
sexual differentiation of various brain structures may be involved. Animal
experiments have revealed that the sexual differentiation of the brain is mainly
due to an inßuence of testosterone, acting both via androgen receptors (ARs) andÑ
after aromatase-catalyzed conversion to estradiolÑvia estrogen receptors (ERs). The
present study examined the possible importance of three polymorphisms and their
pairwise interactions for the development of male-to-female transsexualism: a CAG
repeat sequence in the Þrst exon of the AR gene, a tetra nucleotide repeat
polymorphism in intron 4 of the aromatase gene, and a CA repeat polymorphism in
intron 5 of the ERb gene. Subjects were 29 Caucasian male-to-female transsexuals
and 229 healthy male controls. Transsexuals differed from controls with respect to
the mean length of the ERb repeat polymorphism, but not with respect to the length
of the other two studied polymorphisms. However, binary logistic regression analysis
revealed signiÞcant partial effects for all three polymorphisms, as well as for the
interaction between the AR and aromatase gene polymorphisms, on the risk of
developing transsexualism. Given the small number of transsexuals in the study,
the results should be interpreted with the utmost caution. Further study of the
putative role of these and other sex steroid-related genes for the development of
transsexualism may, however, be worthwhile.
2005 Elsevier Ltd. All
These are studies based off a controlled number of transsexuals, thus it cannot possibly apply to the entire community. It is a theory. Try again.
I have taken the liberty of putting words in bold for you in the above quote to further prove there is no known cause.
Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 11, 2011, 04:35:00 PM
These are studies based off a controlled number of transsexuals, thus it cannot possibly apply to the entire community. It is a theory. Try again.
I have taken the liberty of putting words in bold for you in the above quote to further prove there is no known cause.
Epileptic fits were first consider an evil curse, then the product of a feeble mind. Later on we discover it had a biological origin. As the resolution of brain activity mapping increase our understanding of GID will grow. The sample size is small, but we have to start somewhere.
Yes right now is just an hypothesis (I think that is what you meant by "theory') with some evidence.
FYI: a theory is a series of verified scientific facts about a physical phenomena
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 06:08:59 PM
Epileptic fits were first consider an evil curse, then the product of a feeble mind. Later on we discover it had a biological origin. As the resolution of brain activity mapping increase our understanding of GID will grow. The sample size is small, but we have to start somewhere.
Yes right now is just an hypothesis (I think that is what you meant by "theory') with some evidence.
FYI: a theory is a series of verified scientific facts about a physical phenomena
Then what is your argument? You have clearly stated an agreement on the fact there is no known cause. Despite any progressive understanding on the matter, it still has not resulted in a factual conclusion. Thus anyone arguing at this point that
they feel their cause of transsexualism was adapted due to environmental influences, is in no way less valid from someone claiming it was biologically present, despite any studies conducted regarding either. They are both opinions (yes, scientifically a hypothesis) with no fact to support either is true or false. As we know and I've stated, opinion cannot be factual. I cannot understand this argument.
Quote from: stldrmgrl on December 11, 2011, 06:22:06 PM
Then what is your argument? You have clearly stated an agreement on the fact there is no known cause. Despite any progressive understanding on the matter, it still has not resulted in a factual conclusion. Thus anyone arguing at this point that they feel their cause of transsexualism was adapted due to environmental influences, is in no way less valid from someone claiming it was biologically present, despite any studies conducted regarding either. They are both opinions (yes, scientifically a hypothesis) with no fact to support either is true or false. As we know and I've stated, opinion is not factual, otherwise it would not be opinion.
You are right and so is everyone else. I cannot understand this argument.
Let me try one more time. Two hundred years ago we did not know much about the biological origins of a variety of illness and disease; yet the enlightened scholars of that time suspected that all diseases or pathological states have a biological origin. There are thousand of disease that have clearly ascribe to genetic origins. The emerging research on GID indicates that genes and/or hormones are the causative of the condition. We do not know all the details yet, but there is no doubt that this condition is biological on nature.
Not reading anyone's posts, btw.
According to John Money, I'm a transsexual woman. Stupid bastard.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 06:33:18 PM
Let me try one more time. Two hundred years ago we did not know much about the biological origins of a variety of illness and disease; yet the enlightened scholars of that time suspected that all diseases or pathological states have a biological origin. There are thousand of disease that have clearly ascribe to genetic origins. The emerging research on GID indicates that genes and/or hormones are the causative of the condition. We do not know all the details yet, but there is no doubt that this condition is biological on nature.
Hey I still believe in spontanous generation and I will argue with anyone who tells me otherwise.
Fortunately for you this is America -land of the Free- and you can believe anything you want. There are people in America who believe:
Earth is flat,
We did not land in the moon,
Evolution does not exists,
Homosexuals are an abomination,
Transsexuals are perverts,
HIV is G-d's punishment to homosexuals,
Women's place is in the kitchen,
African, Asian, and other Brown people are inferior to "white" people,
GID is an acquired learned lifestyle,
Jesus was just a prophet,
Santa does not exists,
Doctors do not make spellings mistakes,
Siddhartha was just another prophet,
what else ?
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:33:30 PM
Fortunately for you this is America -land of the Free- and you can believe anything you want. There are people in America who believe:
Earth is flat,
We did not land in the moon,
Evolution does not exists,
Homosexuals are an abomination,
Transsexuals are perverts,
HIV is G-d's punishment to homosexuals,
Women's place is in the kitchen,
African, Asian, and other Brown people are inferior to "white" people,
GID is an acquired learned lifestyle,
Jesus was just a prophet,
Santa does not exists,
Doctors do not make spellings mistakes,
Siddhartha was just another prophet,
what else ?
Only like 3 of those are true....sheesh even I knew that. LMAO
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 08:36:34 PM
Only like 3 of those are true....sheesh even I knew that. LMAO
and they are ....
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:44:51 PM
and they are ....
Siddartha landin on the moon. Baby angel cosmic dust.
Oh yeah...those were the days. You see god in the disco ball.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 08:47:10 PM
Siddartha landin on the moon. Baby angel cosmic dust.
Oh yeah...those were the days. You see god in the disco ball.
G-d is a waderful thing, you can even find her in a guitar
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 06:33:18 PM
Let me try one more time. Two hundred years ago we did not know much about the biological origins of a variety of illness and disease; yet the enlightened scholars of that time suspected that all diseases or pathological states have a biological origin. There are thousand of disease that have clearly ascribe to genetic origins. The emerging research on GID indicates that genes and/or hormones are the causative of the condition. We do not know all the details yet, but there is no doubt that this condition is biological on nature.
lol Jen, you are certainly entertaining. Listen, I'm not going to do this with you. My point is very simple...
Proven = fact
Not proven = opinion/hypothesis/theory
Nothing in terms of a confirmed cause of transsexualism has been proven. You believe what you believe, and others believe what they believe. Until something is scientifically proven otherwise, there is no right or wrong belief. It is incorrect to denounce someone's opinion simply because you do not believe in it. You certainly do not need to agree with it, but respect should be upheld.
As to the origin of this thread, I fully support the idea and diversity we all present in our personal beliefs of what a "transsexual woman" is and means to each of us. To put it quite simply, you can travel by vehicle, airplane or boat and still reach the same destination. Apply that to this situation, and hopefully it becomes a bit more clear.
I'm bowing out now, ta ta.
i think we should all quit trying to answer these questions. you just are who you are. you have an awareness of who you are, and that's all that matters in the end. people just need to learn to accept others for their differences. asking what a transsexual woman is, is just like asking what is man, woman, boy, or girl for that matter? people have different beliefs, but if you're secure enough in your own, there's no need to look any further. i remember you told me that before, mahsa. it's better to just live and be.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:33:30 PM
Fortunately for you this is America -land of the Free- and you can believe anything you want. There are people in America who believe:
Earth is flat,
We did not land in the moon,
Evolution does not exists,
Homosexuals are an abomination,
Transsexuals are perverts,
HIV is G-d's punishment to homosexuals,
Women's place is in the kitchen,
African, Asian, and other Brown people are inferior to "white" people,
GID is an acquired learned lifestyle,
Jesus was just a prophet,
Santa does not exists,
Doctors do not make spellings mistakes,
Siddhartha was just another prophet,
what else ?
I believe Jesus was just a prophet, whatever that means, and I think Siddhartha was a misogynistic deadbeat dad who was overly glorified for coming up with stuff every suburban white male stoner teenager thinks about, Hesse be damned.
What are we talking about, exactly?
Quote from: Felix on December 11, 2011, 09:03:58 PM
I believe Jesus was just a prophet, whatever that means, and I think Siddhartha was a misogynistic deadbeat dad who was overly glorified for coming up with stuff every suburban white male stoner teenager thinks about, Hesse be damned.
What are we talking about, exactly?
The spoon in the moon man....
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 09:16:34 PM
The spoon in the moon man....
Ho, Mahsa,
That was a good one, :laugh:
Good night ladies and gents
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 11, 2011, 08:13:23 PM
Hey I still believe in spontanous generation and I will argue with anyone who tells me otherwise.
Maggots from meat! Maggots! Meat!
(and mice from granaries, etc)
Awesome stuff. I'll back you up Mahsa.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
OMFG...LMAO
Why because I don't live in the transworld? Cuz I have the elitist "gay" attitude? Cuz I am upfront about sexuality and my past. I am sorry hun, I know I was born XY and I've accepted it. I happen to like that part in my pants. I am not gonna deny my past...that's idiotic.
There is nothing wrong inside of me, I am secure within myself and successful. I just don't live in the trans "bubble" and don't suspend my believe system. I don't see things through rose colored glasses.
The idea of living in a "bubble" bothers me a bit. I'm not suspending my belief system by
not being defined by chromosomes, genitals, or anything else physical. A chromosome is nothing other than a message, which
might be read by the body (hence recessive genes and what not). The Y chromosome is just a shriveled up former X chromosome that helps make sperm and determine sex. After my orchiectomy, my Y chromosome does virtually nothing... Well besides being used by other people to undermine my feelings of being female.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 10, 2011, 07:49:18 PM
I don't think transsexualism is a genetic trait. But is rather learned. Using my ex's child as an example...her dad my ex is a homosexual man and her mom is our former fruitfly and is a bisexual female raised her to be a girl, if she decides later she wants to be more like her dad... she might eventually use the concept of her dad, who is a masculine gay man to justify her GID or transsexualism.
Maybe your form of transsexualism is acquired, but you do not speak for everyone.
I'm not compensating by saying that I've always been female. It's just what I feel. I can't remember a time when I didn't feel this way.
I resent being told what I was or wasn't born with. In the same way there's not conclusive evidence yet of a natal or genetic cause, there's certainly not the opposite either. And as everyone is different, there may be multiple causes.
around the world there are millions of people of all ages including ones born in the last five minutes who have observable physical problems and deformities and we know that there are many who look fine at birth but will soon display problems in their brains that stop them living what should be the normal life for their particular societies - there is a special school for these people right next to my apartment - and we know that a very big 5/6/7/10% of all people will reject normal heterosexual stereotyping and live and love as LGBT - which all to me seems to point out that pregnancy can produce all sorts of misprogramming of bodies and brains - so transsexualism must have a biological basis.
A transsexual woman to me is one who has an inner femaleness that shows through from infancy regardless of attempts to suppress or modify it.
Logically a good percentage of transsexuals would also have the programming fault to be BLG.
Equally logically a good percentage of transsexuals would reject the GBL lifestyle and rights and want no contact with it and think it an abomination just as many 'normal' heterosexual men and women do.
Equally logically many of these normal heterosexuals hold their beliefs due to culture and social conditioning or their particular society who without this programming would have grown up to accept variances of what is right in their peers.
Why we TS get such a bad press and have so many LGB critics and fools who push reparist theories and laws is strange unless my belief in pheromonic addiction and brain altering is true and many LGBs are made not born.
We know that when young boys are cloistered together in schools and seminaries a lot become homosexual and the same applies to girls but girls easily demonstrate the possible causes for this in that their periods quite often synchronise which to me shows that hormones can easily modify subconscious brain activity that may bring on lesbianism.
I am certain that Mahsa's theory is totally wrong.
Quote from: Jen61 on December 11, 2011, 08:33:30 PM
Fortunately for you this is America -land of the Free- and you can believe anything you want. There are people in America who believe:
Earth is flat,
We did not land in the moon,
Evolution does not exists,
Homosexuals are an abomination,
Transsexuals are perverts,
HIV is G-d's punishment to homosexuals,
Women's place is in the kitchen,
African, Asian, and other Brown people are inferior to "white" people,
GID is an acquired learned lifestyle,
Jesus was just a prophet,
Santa does not exists,
Doctors do not make spellings mistakes,
Siddhartha was just another prophet,
what else ?
Kia Ora Jen,
::) Jesus 'IS' [a] profit -just check out the $$$ those mega churches are pulling in... ;) ;D
::) One can't say the same for Siddhartha, perhaps he was more so 'not' a [for] profit... ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
being known and proven the fact that women are a mystery, i guess we can conclude the discussion saying that transsexual women are a mystery as well
I found this link on another trans community I use, it's pretty interesting but only a short part of the lecture video. About similarities between natal female and trans female brains, and the dissimilarity between a phenomenon that occurs in men that have to get their penis' removed for whatever reason and post-op trans women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE&feature=player_detailpage#t=5033s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE&feature=player_detailpage#t=5033s)
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I just think it's interesting and video form is nicer on the eyes than massive document.
Kia Ora,
::) There is no such thing as a transsexual 'women' !
Metta Zenda :)
So, pretty much like I said a few pages ago, it's whatever any self-described transsexual woman says it is.
I go along with what the guy in the video says which explains why I spent a lifetime blanking off every little thought I had that I was just living a lie and was in the wrong body and was crazy to think that I was just as normal a male as my body was.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 14, 2011, 01:57:16 AM
I go along with what the guy in the video says which explains why I spent a lifetime blanking off every little thought I had that I was just living a lie and was in the wrong body and was crazy to think that I was just as normal a male as my body was.
how to not quote your words?