in my country being transgender is seam as a mentall ill disorder.
some people wanna remove it from the list not to be, but other transgender people are agenst it, by the agument
"if we arnt ill then we wont get suport for our threatment, if we try to make our rights better insteed it would be for the best"
I heard in ex Japan being transgender is a Medicational disorder (I dont know how that compared to mentall illness)
but I wanna ask you guys, how it is where you live, and what you would prefern?
Not just your country, all countries.
http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F64 (http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F64)
The difference is in the prescription. Support or abuse?
so wha do you think?
The classification doesn't really bother me, it's just what some book says. It doesn't affect my everyday life or my access to the treatment I need. If they change it to a physical disorder that would be more accurate.... I would like that.... but either way, I'm fine with it. Either way proves it's not a choice, as no one can choose a mental disorder.
Personally, I don't think it should be considered a mental disorder anywhere. I think it should be considered a biological, or physiological, or even a hormonal disorder. and so it's still a type of disorder, and insurance should cover treatment.
people would probebly kill me for it, but I would prefern it where a gender identety.
I belive gender is fluent. I belive being transgender isnt a choice, but threatment are,
and I belive its not a illness to be yourself for who you are.
if it had to be some kind of dignose then I would prefern medical dignose, but even that seams alittle strange to me since not all transgender people want threatment.
I don't think I am mentally ill at all. I live a completely normal life and I am not really hindered in any way as far as my relationship with my partner, social life, academic career or my job. Not to say that transitioning will not affect these things, but I don't think my identifying as male will change my desire to seek success. Sure, I dislike my legal name and sex marker on my IDs and legal forms, but I consider it to be a physical disorder more than anything else. For some reason, my body decided that it liked estrogen. I think of it as a hiccup in my physical development that caused undeserved amounts of stress and emotional pain. I consider mental illness to be hindering in some way, or something that requires medical treatments designed to affect the chemicals in the brain. The family and friends that I have that do suffer from mental disorders (mental retardation in development, social anxiety disorder, autism and bi-polar disorder) show signs of difficulty in daily life that I personally do not have. This is not to say that being trans is not affected by these things. A lot of trans folks have social anxiety disorder, depression and other things that is caused by the fact that their bodies do not match their minds. In my opinion, transition will bring my body more in line with my brain, which I consider physical.
However, I can see the argument for treating transgender/transsexual people as if they have a mental condition. A lot of people have difficulty wrapping their minds around someone suffering from a physical or hormone disorder if they cannot physically see something that would be considered a deformity. Saying that it is a mental condition makes some people feel more comfortable with the fact that anyone in the trans community would chose to alter a body that functions normally. I do think that having some sort of medical diagonsis is helpful for those who seek any type of medical treatment and getting that treatment covered by insurance companies.
People who seek cosmetic surgery for any number of reasons are not required to submit to a medical diagnosis. If I had gotten into a car accident and needed facial recontruction, the medical system wouldn't tell me that I had to be diagnosis with something. (For some reason the term 'facial dysphoria/identity disorder' came to mind). I don't think that the standards of what gender is under the medical system is accurate, though. Plenty of people fall outside of the two-catagory system.
But, this is only my personal opinion and I do not speak for everyone.
I am also in no way saying that mental disorders do not manifest physically. Someone with severe depression does so physical symptoms. I just personally don't think that my condition of being female bodied is mental.
I think it's just another kind of intersex, and doesn't belong in the DSM. That said, I have a hard time getting worked up about it.
Quote from: Felix on December 21, 2011, 08:23:55 PM
I think it's just another kind of intersex, and doesn't belong in the DSM. That said, I have a hard time getting worked up about it.
Pretty much what I think too.
The term "Harry Benjamin Syndrome", which defines it as a physical intersex condition (brain-body mismatch) has potential. Although for some reason it has a negative connotation with trans women who view it as an elitist group. Whatever...
Don't call us transsexuals or transgenders (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-8Rw9L18nQ#)
I'm not sure why there's some folks in the intersex community who frown on transsexualism (not transgender) being classed as an intersex condition. I mean, there's most definitely something going on IN the body. Hormones are very powerful, especially on a developing fetus (as was my case - mass amounts of T in the womb, but didn't quite turn out all physically male) so I think being transsexual does come with some physical differences from everyone else (cis-gendered, if you will). There's already tons of variations on intersex so why not include this as valid?
That said, I don't believe it's a mental illness or disorder either. They don't call other intersex people mentally disabled. It's a physical condition. I know that because of the current mental classification people are able to get treatment, but I think if being transsexual were classed as intersex and the same treatment options applied it would be better than telling someone they were mentally ill.
However, this might make me unpopular but I'd have to draw the line at transsexual because I honestly believe that being "pansexual" or some of the other myriad of gender and sexual preferences out there does not make you abnormal. I think if someone is androgyne that they're actually normal as well. Does that mean I think they shouldn't have access to treatments like hormones and SRS? I'm really not sure. That's the problem with a lot of things ... like where is a line drawn? Unfortunately it's usually up to someone else to decide this for us all (which is it's own sort of problem).
In Australia, transsexualism is treated as a medical condition, not a mental illness. It's as it should be IMHO. I know I have other issues with depression and anxiety, but being trans does not make me mentally ill nor anyone else. I don't know why it's not classed as an intersex condition when other disorders that seem to simply be hormone imbalances of varying description are.
gonna quote the WPATH standards of care (which i agree within this case) all up in here.
"This statement noted that "the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one's assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative... transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals are not inherently disordered... The existence of a diagnosis for such dysphoria often facilitates access to health care... Research is leading to new diagnostic nomenclatures, and terms are changing in both the DSM and the ICD."
I feel pretty strongly that it shouldn't be considered a mental disorder.
When I was a kid, I had this heavy secret and felt uneasy about my mental status. When I was a teenager, I thought I was a sicko perv, seriously disturbed. One of my greatest fears was that I would be locked up in a mental ward.
Then, at 26, I discovered the first clinical book then in existence about FTMs. It basically said that we were mentally ill. Transition didn't help us. The only thing that could help us was intensive therapy--so we could learn to accept being women. This book, by a so-called expert with extensive knowledge and experience, did untold damage to me. Sure, I already questioned my sanity--at that point, I had never told a living soul about my longing to live as a man--but to have the expert confirm it was so terrifying that I blocked it out for years, just as I had my molestation. Rather than admit to being seriously mentally ill, I stopped considering transition as an option. I decided I was a crossdresser.
There were various bars to my transitioning at that time. I know that. But I'm talking about the emotional fallout from reading that book with that diagnosis. And I know that most of us know we're not mentally ill. But the stigma remains. And to be perfectly sane but know that some people--some "experts"--classify you as the exact opposite is disturbing and hurtful. I know who I am. Don't try to tell me I'm not.
Because my therapist is a stand-up guy--and because I paid for everything out of pocket--I did not need a diagnosis of GID to get hormones or surgery. I don't know whether U.S. insurance companies (the ones that cover us, I mean) require such a diagnosis, but I suspect that they do.
My depression is a mental disorder. My gender identity is not.
QuoteThe only thing that could help us was intensive therapy--so we could learn to accept being women.
This disturbs me more than any other aspect of living uncloseted. Learning that anybody thinks this way, that anybody ever thought this way, makes me doubt the value of getting up in the morning, ever.
The WPATH SOC state that it is not a mental illness, and any problems that do arise are as a result of the way the client is treated by society pretty strongly.
Unfortunately there are a lot of organisations that have not caught up. The official Vatican position is that we are mentally ill, for instance. I looked it up. >:(
Karen.
Quote from: Arch on December 22, 2011, 01:59:22 AM
I feel pretty strongly that it shouldn't be considered a mental disorder.
When I was a kid, I had this heavy secret and felt uneasy about my mental status. When I was a teenager, I thought I was a sicko perv, seriously disturbed. One of my greatest fears was that I would be locked up in a mental ward.
Then, at 26, I discovered the first clinical book then in existence about FTMs. It basically said that we were mentally ill. Transition didn't help us. The only thing that could help us was intensive therapy--so we could learn to accept being women. This book, by a so-called expert with extensive knowledge and experience, did untold damage to me. Sure, I already questioned my sanity--at that point, I had never told a living soul about my longing to live as a man--but to have the expert confirm it was so terrifying that I blocked it out for years, just as I had my molestation. Rather than admit to being seriously mentally ill, I stopped considering transition as an option. I decided I was a crossdresser.
There were various bars to my transitioning at that time. I know that. But I'm talking about the emotional fallout from reading that book with that diagnosis. And I know that most of us know we're not mentally ill. But the stigma remains. And to be perfectly sane but know that some people--some "experts"--classify you as the exact opposite is disturbing and hurtful. I know who I am. Don't try to tell me I'm not.
Because my therapist is a stand-up guy--and because I paid for everything out of pocket--I did not need a diagnosis of GID to get hormones or surgery. I don't know whether U.S. insurance companies (the ones that cover us, I mean) require such a diagnosis, but I suspect that they do.
My depression is a mental disorder. My gender identity is not.
im sorry to hear you went thought that,
but it sorta reminds me of myself and something I read.
here we got 1 hospital who generally threats transexuals, but they way of threating is in my eyes very wrong so most people go to other countys.
one of the thing is, its very steryotypical jugmenting, and very sexual.
they will point out that your really a man or a women, and insteed of saying "well sure you can be a man and be femenine, then they would rather say " no if your femenine then your not a man" and stuff like that, transgender women can be dignosed ->-bleeped-<- insteed of transexuals because they enjoyed having sex with someone.
those kind of threatment are the reason why theres so much fuss, because people are very unhappy about it and want it to be better,
not to be compared to sexual criminals and generally have the poorly threatment it is, but other belived that even thought its poorly it IS a threatment, and we should try make it better, but NOT remove it to be a mentall illness, because then we would not be able to get any help.
I can tell for everyone who are interesting we actually hit the gold of the signatures and more. so now im wondering if the politicals are gonna change this or not.
Quote from: Gifted on December 21, 2011, 09:39:21 PM
Pretty much what I think too.
The term "Harry Benjamin Syndrome", which defines it as a physical intersex condition (brain-body mismatch) has potential. Although for some reason it has a negative connotation with trans women who view it as an elitist group. Whatever...
Don't call us transsexuals or transgenders (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-8Rw9L18nQ#)
I think harra benjamin sound pretty old fashion or maybe its just me
Quote from: Arch on December 22, 2011, 01:59:22 AM
I feel pretty strongly that it shouldn't be considered a mental disorder.
When I was a kid, I had this heavy secret and felt uneasy about my mental status. When I was a teenager, I thought I was a sicko perv, seriously disturbed. One of my greatest fears was that I would be locked up in a mental ward.
Then, at 26, I discovered the first clinical book then in existence about FTMs. It basically said that we were mentally ill. Transition didn't help us. The only thing that could help us was intensive therapy--so we could learn to accept being women. This book, by a so-called expert with extensive knowledge and experience, did untold damage to me. Sure, I already questioned my sanity--at that point, I had never told a living soul about my longing to live as a man--but to have the expert confirm it was so terrifying that I blocked it out for years, just as I had my molestation. Rather than admit to being seriously mentally ill, I stopped considering transition as an option. I decided I was a crossdresser.
There were various bars to my transitioning at that time. I know that. But I'm talking about the emotional fallout from reading that book with that diagnosis. And I know that most of us know we're not mentally ill. But the stigma remains. And to be perfectly sane but know that some people--some "experts"--classify you as the exact opposite is disturbing and hurtful. I know who I am. Don't try to tell me I'm not.
Because my therapist is a stand-up guy--and because I paid for everything out of pocket--I did not need a diagnosis of GID to get hormones or surgery. I don't know whether U.S. insurance companies (the ones that cover us, I mean) require such a diagnosis, but I suspect that they do.
My depression is a mental disorder. My gender identity is not.
You know, I'm younger than you are and didn't experience this exact thing but I did have several psychologists tell me I was mentally ill. And one did try to force me to just accept being female. And I can say with absolute certainty that the being called mentally ill as a young teen totally f**cked me up. I also felt like I was "sick" and "perverted" at various times. I had believed the bull->-bleeped-<- and thought I really was messed up in the head. It led me to want to escape reality via the only route I could find - alcohol (and later, select drugs).
So if I could say anything to a younger person who is going through this, it's question what the psychologists tell you and just because you feel trapped in your own body and that you're the wrong gender, you are not mentally ill.
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 23, 2011, 01:29:37 AM
You know, I'm younger than you are and didn't experience this exact thing but I did have several psychologists tell me I was mentally ill. And one did try to force me to just accept being female. And I can say with absolute certainty that the being called mentally ill as a young teen totally f**cked me up. I also felt like I was "sick" and "perverted" at various times. I had believed the bull->-bleeped-<- and thought I really was messed up in the head. It led me to want to escape reality via the only route I could find - alcohol (and later, select drugs).
So if I could say anything to a younger person who is going through this, it's question what the psychologists tell you and just because you feel trapped in your own body and that you're the wrong gender, you are not mentally ill.
since I where 8 I got told I where diffrent, but theres a pretty big line between being told your diffrent and being told your generally "sick"
I think some people belive it to be a relief to have something to blame it on, that your ill" but if you ask me I felt it pretty disturbing because you easly get to be seen less worthy, or yourself might feel your are less.
thats my experiense on that point.
--
lilacwoman: I dont understand your point in those...
in my country gay and lesbians arnt mentall illness, they got removed from that list for 30 years ago and im happy for that cause I think its normal.
Dear all,
LGBT Denmark have campaigned the removal of gender variant people from the classifications of diseases for half a year now.
Studies of the impact of removing homosexuality from DSM in 1973 and from ICD in 1990 show an amazing increase in respect and rights after this event. Since gender diagnoses are coupled to civil rights such as legal gender recognition in a host of countries the removal of gender variant people from the classifications will most likely lead to improved rights.
Very recently Argentina proposed a new law removing all requirements of diagnosis or medical treatment prior to legal recognition. The law also propose allowing gender correction care with nothing but informed consent (i.e. no year long psychiatric evaluations). We believe it is no coincidence that this, the most advanced law in the world, is proposed in a country strongly represented in the movement against pathologizing transgender people.
There need to be a code to classify required treatments. The beauty of ICD is, however that several physical codes such as "N62 Hypertrophy of breast" exists already. They are used to treat people who develop biologic variations for genetic or hormonal reasons. None of them are in nature restricted to this use. This means that it is perfectly possible to provide chest surgery for a transman on the same terms and under the same diagnostic codes as it would be provided for another man who happened to develop the unwanted breasts by a hormonal imbalance.
Similar diagnoses exist for all desired treatments, which means a gender diagnosis is not required to provide treatment.
This means the main reason to retain it is to provide a means of psychiatric gatekeeping and restriction of access to treatment.
LGBT Denmark strongly opposes this and are happy to announce that Amnesty have joined our fight for removal stirring up 10.000 signatures and a big fuss in the media for the last few days :)
For more information see the communal statement from 37 organizations:
http://www.lgbt.dk/uploads/media/SPGV.pdf (http://www.lgbt.dk/uploads/media/SPGV.pdf)
Send me a PM if your organization wants to join
Best regards and Merry Christmas
Vibe Grevsen
LGBT Denmark
its what im talking about,
however I am wondering how it will work out and so.
some people say it will be removed all to be a dignoses some say you need to get another dignose on it.
for my caise I dont care so much, as long as its not called "mentall illness." for me it just dosent sound right.
--
another thing I am alittle wondering about is sweden, I heard people saying in sweden being transexual was a mental illness, but I talked to a guy for some days ago, he said it wasnt. now he wasnt transgender but gay, but I been kinda curious how many countrys who actually do have it as mentall illness and who dosent?.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
What?! Just no.
QuoteAs many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Lovely generalisation there.
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
sorry about that. :D
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
Having a mental health problem does not mean that homosexuality is a mental illness. There is a major difference between the two. White men between 15 -35 are more likely to commit suicide than other people, but does that make them mentally ill too? No. The likelihood is that the mental health problem that they are mostly suffering from is depression, which could be caused by the prejustice that they face by people in their daily lives, or fear of what might happen if they are found out be homo/bisexual in a bigotted area. Take away the stresses of not conforming to the hetronormalive ideals and I bet that figure would reduce. And then take out generally occuring mental illnesses such as bipolar, schitzophrenia, autism, etc, which occur in the general population regardless of sexuality and situation and the number will be less again.
Homosexuality is
not an illness regardless of the number of homo/bisexuals who suffer from them. There are perfectly healthy people who are not heterosexual.
I do not have depression because I am trans and not heterosexual. I have depression because I have depression. I attempted suicide because of it, but even then you don't need a mental illness to be suicidal.
If this isn't what you were saying then I appologise, but your blunt, not wholly clear manner makes it slightly hard to disciper the intention of your statement.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
sorry about that. :D
the reason for so is because we live in a sociaty where its more accepting to be straight than gay, in that fact you will get into more trouble when your gay and by that you of corse also are more likely to get into trouble.
the same thing goes for transexuals, I must admid that many transexuals seam to have emotionally/socially or mental problems, but when I see or hear there storys then I understand that this isnt because they simple where transgender but for the ignorance and hate people put on them for being so.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
I'm invested in this thread and can't actively moderate here. But I really, really, REALLY suggest you rethink the wording here. Is this truly what you meant to say?
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Homosexuality hasn't been listed in the DSM since 1974, so it isn't considered a mental disorder. I personally have many L&G friends, they don't hate TG/TS, and they know that I am trans.
A reminder of Rule 10
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Transsexualism is a physical disorder. It can however spark mental disorder because of dissatisfaction with one's own body.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Do you really believe this?
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
sorry about that. :D
Correlation does not imply causation. This cannot be stressed enough.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
Really? I hope I have read this wrong.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
sorry about that. :D
Society and brain chemistry. Plenty of straight or "normal" people have mental health issues.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
this 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
sorry about that. :D
You could quote very similar statistics for poor people or black people. Being black is not a mental illness, even if it does put you at higher risk for being mentally ill. It puts you at higher risk for heart disease too. We all have categories we fall into, and those categories may overlap and interact, but they do not equate.
Quote from: Brendon on December 23, 2011, 08:15:51 PM
Correlation does not imply causation. This cannot be stressed enough.
This. This this this. I was going to say more, but holy cow would I go off on a tirade. :o
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PMtaking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
Facepalm.
What is this I don't even.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
I beg to differ, the biological underpining of homosexuality and gender identity disorder have been documented and continue to accumulate. Thus, GID is an error in embryonic development (a medical condition), and not a mental illness.
Technically GID people are a form of intersex, in the sense that parts of their anatomy (including some parts of the brain) are either male or female.
Quote from: Julian on December 24, 2011, 01:10:43 PM
This. This this this. I was going to say more, but holy cow would I go off on a tirade. :o
correlation are but a tool to indicate a PROBABLE causation, but by themselves they prove nothing. In sciences we have a joke that says: "there are omissions, there are frauds, there are outright lies, and then there is statistics :laugh:"
Jen61
Quote from: Felix on December 24, 2011, 12:15:15 AM
You could quote very similar statistics for poor people or black people. Being black is not a mental illness, even if it does put you at higher risk for being mentally ill. It puts you at higher risk for heart disease too. We all have categories we fall into, and those categories may overlap and interact, but they do not equate.
Oh god, I read this and laughed so hard. My first thought was, using the flawed logic 'LGB people have a higher rate of mental illness, therefore being LGB is a mental illness', we now have 'black people have a higher rate of heart disease, therefore being black is a heart disease'. Suddenly, this whole argument seems about 47 times more ridiculous, and now I'm not even worked up about it. haha
your argument is faulty as everyone has a heart but few are BGL
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 24, 2011, 02:15:40 PM
your argument is faulty as everyone has a heart but few are BGL
Everyone has a heart and a brain. (Relatively) few people are LGB or black. I think that corresponds more closely between the provided examples.
I think Lilacwoman is not feeling very well and needs a hug.. (((((Lilacwoman))))
May your days go better and may you be able to sleep at nights..
okay sorry but this gay and black things are ridiculous.
could we keep to the topic about TRANGENDERS being mental ill or not.
Quote from: Brendon on December 24, 2011, 01:56:04 PM
Oh god, I read this and laughed so hard. My first thought was, using the flawed logic 'LGB people have a higher rate of mental illness, therefore being LGB is a mental illness', we now have 'black people have a higher rate of heart disease, therefore being black is a heart disease'. Suddenly, this whole argument seems about 47 times more ridiculous, and now I'm not even worked up about it. haha
Which for some reason made me think of this:
Wino vs. Dracula (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHMIduI2hUs#)
;D
Quote from: Natkat on December 24, 2011, 04:52:11 PM
okay sorry but this gay and black things are ridiculous.
could we keep to the topic about TRANGENDERS being mental ill or not.
Natkat you posted about mental illness and nationality. Gays and blacks are marginalized groups the same as transgender people, and their experiences are relevant to us.
Quote from: Felix on December 24, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Natkat you posted about mental illness and nationality. Gays and blacks are marginalized groups the same as transgender people, and their experiences are relevant to us.
black people and gay people are not on a list of mentall illness, at least not wher im from.
transgender people is, but might go off that list, I want peoples opinion on that not about black and gay people.
My therapist, a well qualified psycho-therapist, has been very forthright in telling me all along that being transgender/transsexual is not a mental illness.. And in fact, he describes his job as being there for the 'other issues' in life.. Given that I don't really have any, that may explain why I only see him for a 30 minute catch up every couple of months..
My belief, based on the available data, is that being trans is a physiological issue - just a variation on an intersex condition. It's certainly not a mental illness.
As far as being gay or lesbian being a mental illness, umm, :icon_hahano: And lilacwoman's use of stats also gave me a giggle.. I wonder if it's occurred to her that the reason G and L's suffer from mental illness is due to the stresses involved for some/many of them?
My psychiatrist doesn't consider it a mental illness either. It's difficult because you kind of have to talk about it like it is to be taken seriously by government, insurance companies, etc...how does one acknowledge that it is a legitimate condition that requires treatment (transition) without pathologizing it?
(Apparently my spell-check doesn't recognize "pathologizing" as a word but I'm sure that's how it's spelled >:( )
Quote from: Natkat on December 24, 2011, 06:14:51 PM
black people and gay people are not on a list of mentall illness, at least not wher im from.
transgender people is, but might go off that list, I want peoples opinion on that not about black and gay people.
I'm gay, and the circumstances that puts me in do overlap with those created by being transgender. I'll stop commenting if I can only say what you want to hear. It is your thread.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
facepalm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a39wwLKXUnY&feature=related#)
Quote from: Felix on December 24, 2011, 06:51:53 PM
I'm gay, and the circumstances that puts me in do overlap with those created by being transgender. I'll stop commenting if I can only say what you want to hear. It is your thread.
im gay as well,
but im not interesteed in having a discussion about that or being black.
I simple ask people to try stay in topic. this is not just you, I just say so in general when people starting getting offtopic with anything.
--
to make it all clear;
gay people or black people are not mental ill and not on the list.
at least not where im from.
black people have been unaccepted, but isnt anymore
and homosexualety have been a mentall illness,
but it got removed from the list years ago,
transexuals are about to get removed as well..
would you like that to happent or not?
------------
Sorry Natkat, but I just cannot let it pass when somone waves their hollier than thou-finger against people
under the same roof as themselves only to try to look "better" and more "righteous".
So, let's investigate the claims of our dear lilacwoman, then, and go by her logic and see where that leads us.
She claims:
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses
Her defence for her standpoint is the following:
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 03:37:18 PM
official statistics of how being LG or B causes mental health problems.
42% of gay men, 43% of lesbians and 49% of bisexual men and women have clinically recognised mental health problems compared with rates of 12% and 20% for predominantly heterosexual men and women. (16)
Gay and bisexual men are more than 7 times as likely to attempt suicide compared with the general population. (25)
According to her logic, then Transsexualism
must then be a mental disorder aswell, as the rate of depression, the unemployment, the social phobias, etc, is
extremely high in the T-group, and not any least, the suicide rate amongst transsexuals are 42%. That's right, 42%, even higher than the suicide rate amongst gay males, gay females and bisexuals.
So if going by lilacwomans famed logic, then transsexualism must be a mental disorder, too, given the extremey high rate of mental problems and illnesses the group contains.
However, here lilacwoman will now say: "NO! That is different! Transsexuals have these problems because of social misary and ignorance from the surrounding- Not because they are transsexuals!".
Ah, interesting claim. Could it perhaps be the same for homo and bisexuals, then?
Well, according to the following research, that is indeed the case:
QuoteMental Health HBTQ-people greater in Societies that are openminded:
Many studies show that gay teenagers with supportive families have better mental health and lower suicide rates. A study has also shown that gays who live in states with marriage bans have higher levels of depression than gays who don't. Another study shows that gays who are out(open about their sexuality) have better mental health than those who are not. There's a study that shows its a gay person's attitude towards their gayness that predicts their mental health with gays having a negative view of gayness having poorer mental health.
"The effects of social factors on the mental health status of homosexual men and women have been well documented in studies, which found a relationship between experiences of stigma, prejudice, and discrimination and mental health status.52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61 Furthermore, controlling for psychological predictors of present distress seems to eliminate differences in mental health status between heterosexual and homosexual adolescents.62 The mediating role of relationship status suggests that higher prevalence rates of some disorders in homosexual people compared with heterosexual people could also be caused by loneliness."
52 Brooks V. Minority Stress and Lesbian Women. Lexington, Mass: DC Heath; 1981
53 Meyer IF. Minority stress and mental health in gay men. J Health Soc Behav. 1995;36:38-56
54 Bradford J, Ryan C, Rothblum ED. National Lesbian Health Care Survey: implications for mental health care. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1994;62:228-242
55 Frable DE, Wortman C, Joseph J. Predicting self-esteem, well-being, and distress in a cohort of gay men: the importance of cultural stigma, personal visibility, community networks, and positive identity. J Pers. 1997;65:599-624
56 Herek GM, Gillis JR, Cogan JC. Psychological sequelae of hate-crime victimization among lesbian, gay and bisexual adults. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1999;67:945-951
57 Meyer IH, Dean L. Internalized homophobia, intimacy, and sexual behavior among gay and bisexual men. In: Herek GM, ed. Stigma and Sexual Orientation: Understanding Prejudice Against Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals. Thousand Oaks, Calif: Sage Publications; 1998:160-186
58 Herek GM, Gillis JR, Cogan JC, Glunt EK. Hate crime victimization among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults. J Interpersonal Violence. 1997;12:195-215
59 Otis MD, Skinner WF. The prevalence of victimization and its effect on mental well-being among lesbian and gay people. J Homosex. 1996;30:93-121
60 Ross MW. The relationship between life events and mental health in homosexual men. J Clin Psychol. 1990;46:402-411
61 Rotheram-Borus MJ, Hunter J, Rosario M. Suicidal behavior and gay-related stress among gay and bisexual male adolescents. J Adolesc Res. 1994;9:498-508
62 Safen SA, Heimberg RG. Depression, hopelessness, suicidality, and related factors in sexual minority and heterosexual adolescents. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1999;67:859-866
Oops. Seems like it after all is not the homo or bisexual orientations itself that is the mental problem, but the social factors and the attitudes from the surroundings.
Lilacwoman should know better at her age, and not the least, in her situation.
Quotethis 2005 survey for UK's Dept of Health shows that taking homosexuality out of the mental illness lists doesn't take mental illness out of homosexuals.
On the contrary, all the research done in this area not only proves that homo and bisexuality are not
the cause for the mental problems at all, but the social factors the homo or bisexual individual moves in.
In the surroundings where the homo and bisexual person is accepted, the person do not experience this rate.
You know, just because you look down upon "different" people and groups as being "deviant groups", it does not make you any more- big quote- "normal" in any way in the view of the people that condemn those groups, if that is your secret goal and reason for your attitudes.
For, according to the Religious condemners, the anti gay activists and the homophobes/transphobes, you are
just as "deviant" and "unwell" yourself, as these people do not view you as a woman but as a homosexual man, that, at best, "needs help",
no matter how
you view yourself.
You might just aswell realize, that- despite the differences between the groups- you are in the very same boat as the T-persons in all their versions, the Crossdressers, the Intersexuals, the Androgynes, the homosexuals, the bisexuals, the ->-bleeped-<-s, etc etc etc, whether you wants it to be that way or not, so you might just aswell start rowing.
Quotesorry about that. :D
You should be. Tsk tsk.
Quote from: Bishounen on December 26, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
Sorry Natkat, but I just cannot let it pass when somone waves their hollier than thou-finger against people under the same roof as themselves only to try to look "better" and more "righteous".
I dont blame you,
but I got the felling the person might be trolling,
and I dont wanna put energy on something whos already seam pretty clear.
I'm believe that she thought the stuff that she was saying was correct, and worried that someone looking at the sight would think that we had that sort of opinion on LGB people. Whichever it was, I think we've come to the conclusion that no one is mentally ill due to who they identify as, or love, but because of the pressure in communities across the world to conform to a heteronormative, cisgendered idealistic lifestyle and the pain that can come from dysphoria etc, LGBTQ people have a higher rate of mental illnesses like depression because of their opression.
"Lilacwoman" has been stopped from posting anymore and has been thoroughly corrected.
Quote from: AdamMLP on December 26, 2011, 04:29:04 PM
I'm believe that she thought the stuff that she was saying was correct, and worried that someone looking at the sight would think that we had that sort of opinion on LGB people. Whichever it was, I think we've come to the conclusion that no one is mentally ill due to who they identify as, or love, but because of the pressure in communities across the world to conform to a heteronormative, cisgendered idealistic lifestyle and the pain that can come from dysphoria etc, LGBTQ people have a higher rate of mental illnesses like depression because of their opression.
"Lilacwoman" has been stopped from posting anymore and has been thoroughly corrected.
opression is pretty much what I belive to be the case for when people are ill or not, in many situations.
I heard a funny story about autism people saying it where a mutation, which mean that in 1000 years (or something) from now on the non-autistic people would be in a lower number than autism people.
today its opposite which mean autism are seen as a disoder, people who think diffrently have diffrent thing there good and bad at than the rest of the people.
but if the number change then the normal people would be the one living in a sociaty who are built for something who dosent fit them, would that mean they would be the disordered ones with whatever it would be??
I wonder? (this sort of thinking remind me of the movie Shame no more)
Quote from: Natkat on December 26, 2011, 04:38:02 PM
opression is pretty much what I belive to be the case for when people are ill or not, in many situations.
I heard a funny story about autism people saying it where a mutation, which mean that in 1000 years (or something) from now on the non-autistic people would be in a lower number than autism people.
today its opposite which mean autism are seen as a disoder, people who think diffrently have diffrent thing there good and bad at than the rest of the people.
but if the number change then the normal people would be the one living in a sociaty who are built for something who dosent fit them, would that mean they would be the disordered ones with whatever it would be??
I wonder? (this sort of thinking remind me of the movie Shame no more)
Maybe, who knowns what people will be like in a few centuries? An example in me and my family is that our smallest toe is
very small. In my case it doesn't actually touch the floor at all, and people who used to see my footprints after getting out of the swimming pool at school thought it was really weird because I only had four toes showing on the footprint. So I was the strange out with freaky feet, but I heard in biology that humans are slowly evolving to have less toes as we need them less than our ancesteral apes did, so we're evolving to have less. Which actually means that eventually there will be four toed humans, and those who still have five toes will be the strange ones!
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
Are you sure? First, does L and G hate T that much? It seems if it's the case they could have dropped T from LGBT long ago. Second, does the L and G community have that much power over ICD and DSM?
We all know that sexual orientation and gender identity are separate things, but I don't think either community benefit from separatism, not to mention those who are both trans and gay.
Quoteblack people have been unaccepted, but isnt anymore
Have you ever been to Alabama or Georgia? I was taught never to speak to black people, that they're dirty and they steal, that they have no morals, etc. Then I lived in mostly black areas a lot where I was taught that white people are stupid and evil and weird. I still maintain that's completely relevant. We have the same bathroom issues, marriage issues, lots of stuff.
I've never until recently lived around other open trans people, but I've also never until recently been in the majority as a white person.
Quotetransexuals are about to get removed as well
I don't believe that will happen with the next edition, because not everybody on the decision committee is transfriendly. I do hope that it happens relatively soon, though.
Quote from: Felix on December 26, 2011, 06:47:29 PM
Have you ever been to Alabama or Georgia?
I've never until recently lived around other open trans people, but I've also never until recently been in the majority as a white person.
I don't believe that will happen with the next edition, because not everybody on the decision committee is transfriendly. I do hope that it happens relatively soon, though.
no I havent,
I been refering to my own country on those and the laws,
im sorry for my ignorance,
where I live black people and homosexuals arnt mentall ill, so thats why I dont understand it to be so.
No I'm sorry too. I didn't mean to be arguing and stuff. I just moved up north a few years ago, and I've never lived outside the states.
Re your original question, I do understand why some people don't want it taken out of the official category of mental illness. If there's any gap between having a mental health diagnostic category and having a physical health diagnostic category, then a lot of people lose access to treatment. That's a bit of a scary prospect.
Quote from: Felix on December 27, 2011, 12:03:27 AM
No I'm sorry too. I didn't mean to be arguing and stuff. I just moved up north a few years ago, and I've never lived outside the states.
Re your original question, I do understand why some people don't want it taken out of the official category of mental illness. If there's any gap between having a mental health diagnostic category and having a physical health diagnostic category, then a lot of people lose access to treatment. That's a bit of a scary prospect.
you mean canada?
I see,
I cant speak for anywhere ells by my own,
the people here who want it too stay as a mentall illness are as I see it either,
1; non transgendered people who dosent belive in being transgender, or who see that it must be a mentall illness if you wanna do surgery or take homones the rest of your life.
2; transexuals who belive we wont be able to get help without. currently theres no rule for being transexual, the only threatment is to be dignosed and by then be mentall ill to be helped, or you can go beyond that system to find some privat doctors or travel to another country.
many people arnt satified with the threatment you get by the goverment but some belive it to at least BE a threatment and we can make it better but then we should not remove it, other people say the dignose of it to be a mentall illness also is the cause of why transgenders are been theanten so badly.
Pretty close to canada, honestly. Northwest oregon.
I'm in the second category but I want to change that. I'm just not sure how.
Quote from: Felix on December 27, 2011, 10:27:42 PM
Pretty close to canada, honestly. Northwest oregon.
I'm in the second category but I want to change that. I'm just not sure how.
I heard a rumous about people from US moved to canada because GLBT rights are better there,
I dont know if its true.
--
wha do you mean by your the second one but wanna change it??
It's nice to see this discussion coming up.
I like to let you know that there are still a few days left for you to tell WHO to drop transgender people from the disorders of adult behavior and personality section. Here is how:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,112979.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,112979.0.html)
Happy holidays!
Quote from: Natkat on December 28, 2011, 07:09:18 AM
I heard a rumous about people from US moved to canada because GLBT rights are better there,
I dont know if its true.
--
wha do you mean by your the second one but wanna change it??
I mean I want it to stay a mental illness so I'll have a diagnostic category and get treatment, but I don't like that and I want it to be more generally accepted as a physical problem.
Quote from: Felix on December 28, 2011, 05:38:49 PM
I mean I want it to stay a mental illness so I'll have a diagnostic category and get treatment, but I don't like that and I want it to be more generally accepted as a physical problem.
Felix, which specific treatments do you want for your dysphoria?
Quote from: Tippe on December 29, 2011, 05:10:28 AM
Felix, which specific treatments do you want for your dysphoria?
Are you driving at something? Just to make it clear, I'm not shilling for any specific section of medicine, or for any political category. I just need a diagnostic code for billing, and it can't stop being a mental health dx until it officially falls into the purview of some other specialty.
The treatments I want blur into the civil rights I want. I need help presenting how I want to, and I need people's expectations for how I present to be less rigid. And I need to be safer in day to day life.
I think there are alternatives already when it comes to billing.
Let's say a transman wants hormonal treatment. Usually he will be born without testicles, thus the doctor could code the appointment as Q55.0 Absence and aplasia of testis. You could talk about the possibilities, effects, and any fears you may have regarding hormone treatment and in the end provide informed consent to start treatment.
You may also need assistance as your voice develops, which could be provided under the code R49.0 Dysphonia.
Later in the process you may approach the doctor again. Being a person with excessive breast growth you will classify as N62 Hypertrophy of breasts and be able to speak with the doctor about the possible treatments and provide informed consent prior to treatment.
Same goes for bottom surgery. Using Q55.0 again you may have testicular implants and using Q55.5 Congenital absence and aplasia of penis you may even have meteidoplasty or phalloplasty as required.
Notice that NONE of these codes are by definition restricted to persons of a certain chromosomal sex. As for the acceptance and recognition part I cannot see how that will benefit from classifying gender variant people as mentally ill either. On the contrary homosexuals have gained a lot of respect and rights during the decades following their depathologization.
Yeah but those codings only ever happen with super friendly doctors. They aren't standard.
Quote from: lilacwoman on December 23, 2011, 02:09:54 AM
Homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses but so many legislators and teachers are G or L or B that their internalised shame made them declassify their afflictions in order to purge the guilt.
As many G and Ls hate TS they ensured TSism was kept as a mental illness despite all evidence to the contrary.
That's my take on it anyway.
No, Your take on it is wrong. people are born that way. Sexual attraction is an automatic reponse. I'm bisexual. I can attest to this.
I just want to say to whoever said homosexuality is a mental illness is wrong
It's a physiological birth defect, just as being trans is - except they're two different defects
Homosexuality is a defect on a chromosome, while being trans has to do with brain development.
Now, I'm gonna flash outta here so I can get up in 3 hours >:-)
Homosexuality is a birth defect? What exactly makes a sexuality "defective"? That just makes me uneasy.
Quote from: stiltsk on January 23, 2012, 03:52:58 AM
I just want to say to whoever said homosexuality is a mental illness is wrong
It's a physiological birth defect, just as being trans is - except they're two different defects
Homosexuality is a defect on a chromosome, while being trans has to do with brain development.
Now, I'm gonna flash outta here so I can get up in 3 hours >:-)
I do agree that homosexuality is Congenital as all the Scientific Research have pointed towards Homosexuality being biological in its cause and not Psychological.
However, I have so far not come across any study that talks about it being Chromosomal, so could you enlighten me on what Cromosome it is that is afflicted?
I do know, however, that the cause for many
MTF's are Chromosomal, as many MTF-people have Klinefelters and hence possess one or up to two extra X-Chromosomes, but I did not know this regarding homosexuals.
Certainly there are Homosexuals with this affliction(Klinefelters) but I do doubt very much that each and every homosexual male have this condition.
From what the studies have shown, the cause, even with Homosexuals, seems to be Neurobiological.
Quote from: stiltsk on January 23, 2012, 03:52:58 AM
It's a physiological birth defect, just as being trans is - except they're two different defects
I do not consider myself defective, I am an expression of uniqueness.
Nature loves variety - unfortunately society does not.
By the way, check out our proposal for a non-psychiatric model on gender care:
http://www.change.org/petitions/icd11-committee-de-pathologize-gender-variation (http://www.change.org/petitions/icd11-committee-de-pathologize-gender-variation)