The threads:
"When did you realize you're not really gay, but trans?"
"if you knew you couldnt pass, would you have transitioned anyway?"
"who else used to be a gay man before transitioning?"
"i'm ugly as a guy, i m going to be a really ugly woman, i have no hope left"
plus few myths from "The "Myth Vs. Reality about Transgender People"
All those responses got me to thinking about this question:
If you knew the road down the future had two forks:
1) you could be a very hot gay guy that everyone wants to sleep with/date or....
2) you could be a very ugly hetero woman that no one wants to sleep with/date or....
Which fork would you take?
(and don't give me cock and bull about your sex drive being low or killed by hormones that you don't care about sleeping with anybody, anyway! I saw that one coming! ;) )
I'd rather be an unattractive woman.
#2
I'm not transitioning to get away from the type of guy I used to be...I'm transitioning to get away from being a guy in general (indirectly; directly I am transitioning to become the woman I feel I am. Thus if that means being unattractive, so be it).
So you d rather sit home lonely night after night with no phone calls or emails from anybody and staring in the mirror, thinking, "Damn, I m ugly as hell"
than....
going out night after night with plenty of friends and having any hot gay man you could have and staring in the mirror thinking, "Damn, I m hot as hell"
I don't believe you ladies, lol. unless you enjoy that kind of boredom, loneliness, and depression
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 03:55:20 PM
So you d rather sit home lonely night after night with no phone calls or emails from anybody and staring in the mirror, thinking, "Damn, I m ugly as hell"
...
I don't believe you ladies, lol. unless you enjoy that kind of boredom, loneliness, and depression
One does not need to be physically attractive to live a happy, fulfilling and eventful life.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
The threads:
"When did you realize you're not really gay, but trans?"
"if you knew you couldnt pass, would you have transitioned anyway?"
"who else used to be a gay man before transitioning?"
"i'm ugly as a guy, i m going to be a really ugly woman, i have no hope left"
plus few myths from "The "Myth Vs. Reality about Transgender People"
All those responses got me to thinking about this question:
If you knew the road down the future had two forks:
1) you could be a very hot gay guy that everyone wants to sleep with/date or....
2) you could be a very ugly hetero woman that no one wants to sleep with/date or....
Which fork would you take?
(and don't give me cock and bull about your sex drive being low or killed by hormones that you don't care about sleeping with anybody, anyway! I saw that one coming! ;) )
Kia Ora Ms Daz,
::) So are you saying there's no such thing as 'asexuality' ?
Metta Zenda :)
I actually posted one of the threads above... its an interesting question to ask.
I don't think I'm a good-looking guy, and I think my idea of good-looking guy means can easily be transformed into a woman. I want to be that 15-year-old boy that I once was, not this awkward, unattractive 26-year-old man I am now.
I think we all really do crave to be liked, to be wanted, to be desirable. If a pretty girl came up to me and flirted with me I wouldn't mind it. It would be uncomfortable at the same time because it was affirmation from another person that I looked like a guy.
If I was going to be a guy I'd want to look like Emile Hirsch. I think he's beautiful:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fboyculture.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a00d8341c2ca253ef01053656d55f970b-400wi&hash=b3d0e5b3a6b30b46907c0fc1d6b7e5dccdc8303a)
In fact, its weird but I'd kill to look like that... because I know that in general I don't think I'm a pretty person...male or female.
I don't think I'd like to be a "hot" guy, more so beautiful... I'd want to date a hot guy not be one.
So to answer your question, I think that I would probably choose to live as a passable woman and that would be my life but passable means completely passable - I do not want to go through life looking like a man in a wig and a dress. Even crossdressers don't want to look like that.
You see, everybody wants to be beautiful, and we're all fighting so hard. I can't tolerate the images of me that I see now - whether they are in pictures or in the mirror because I hate them with a passion that consumes my entire being. I just cannot bear the thought of people looking at me and seeing what I look like now because it's repulsive. Yeah I'm hard on myself but I want to be beautiful, just like everybody else... I shouldn't be attacked for wanting what everybody in this world wants. I wish I was one of those people that just didn't give a ->-bleeped-<-, that didn't care- but I'm tired of looking like this, I'm tired of being alone...
which makes me want to choose the first one, even though I know that's not being true to myself.
I think I would have the FFS, I would try my best with the makeup and the hair, I would take the time needed to transition properly and then I would just live the rest of my life as a woman and improve whatever I could, but if it means being ugly, then I guess I'm ugly. You can only beat yourself over it for so long and I'm running out of beatings. After a while, we need to move on from it.
If we happen to be beautiful, other people will see it. We can't consciously control everything. Trying to has turned me into an ugly person, a person that has no personality, that is obsessed with physical appearances, perfection, facial structures, and it is making me really ugly...
the answer that lies inside your heart, which is I'll be an ugly woman... but I'll go to bed at night knowing who I am, who gives a **** what the rest of the world thinks?. At the end of the day, its just you anyway.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 01, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
Being attractive and living a happy, fulfilling and eventful life are by far not exclusive to each other.
Very true. Plus the two choices aren't remotely equal. It's basically "would you rather be unhappy and ugly or pretty and happy?" A true comparison would be something like "would you rather be pretty and alone or unattractive and surrounded by friends?" That being said, I'd still honestly choose to be an unattractive woman. Partially because I am transitioning away from being a guy, so why the heck would I choose to be one all over again? Plus, I'm not shallow and I don't need to be the hottest thing in the room to feel fulfilled. I feel pretty fulfilled now, and I have almost no friends and no social life. What's wrong with not wanting to be the kind of person that's constantly out partying?
Quote from: sysm29 on January 01, 2012, 04:10:33 PM
So to answer your question, I think that I would probably choose to live as a passable woman and that would be my life but passable means completely passable - I do not want to go through life looking like a man in a wig and a dress. Even crossdressers don't want to look like that.
Even if you have natural hair, makeup, etc...People are still gonna think "trans". Hate to burst your bubble. Makeup and hair is a huge amount of work. It takes me about an hour to get ready everyday. I was a very very feminine boy...but to look "damn she's hot" takes time.
If you want to be attractive and have people notice you, you have to WERQK. That means finding out what makeup works for you, what hair works, etc...that is even to get a basic date with a ->-bleeped-<-. There are many factors like what you looked like as a boy, hormones, etc. Your personality also accounts for a lot when appealing to men.
Simply putting on female clothes and expecting to pass or look attractive is unrealistic. Even subtle makeup goes along way.
Quote from: 30kps on January 01, 2012, 04:11:34 PM
Very true. Plus the two choices aren't remotely equal. It's basically "would you rather be unhappy and ugly or pretty and happy?" A true comparison would be something like "would you rather be pretty and alone or unattractive and surrounded by friends?" That being said, I'd still honestly choose to be an unattractive woman. Partially because I am transitioning away from being a guy, so why the heck would I choose to be one all over again? Plus, I'm not shallow and I don't need to be the hottest thing in the room to feel fulfilled. I feel pretty fulfilled now, and I have almost no friends and no social life. What's wrong with not wanting to be the kind of person that's constantly out partying?
I didnt say you had to do it all over again - i meant from the outset prior to even transitioning , like you had a crystal ball and could see your future -
Yourself as a hot stud on the phone and texting all the time
Yourself as a fugly chick with a dick sitting in a corner all the time
You understand what I mean?
Quote from: sysm29 on January 01, 2012, 04:10:33 PM
the answer that lies inside your heart, which is I'll be an ugly woman... but I'll go to bed at night knowing who I am, who gives a **** what the rest of the world thinks?. At the end of the day, its just you anyway.
My heart or YOUR heart? ;)
Quote from: Zenda on January 01, 2012, 04:06:26 PM
Kia Ora Ms Daz,
::) So are you saying there's no such thing as 'asexuality' ?
Metta Zenda :)
I acknowledge asexuality - but I was saying , given that you had a normal healthy sex drive and innate need for affection/sex/socialization - which fork would you take? Do you understand what I mean?
Honestly, we are all human beings and we need affection from others... i cannot fathom being so ugly that no one wants me and i lie alone in bed night after night to wallow in my misery... you know that babies who were raised by parents who dont hug or touch tend to become cold and unfeeling adults
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 01, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
One does not need to be physically attractive to live a happy, fulfilling and eventful life.
True that, but there is still a correlation between apperances and quality of life - beautiful or handsome people tend to have it better and more doors opened for them than ugly ones
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
I didnt say you had to do it all over again - i meant from the outset prior to even transitioning , like you had a crystal ball and could see your future -
Yourself as a hot stud on the phone and texting all the time
Yourself as a fugly chick with a dick sitting in a corner all the time
You understand what I mean?
I see what you mean, but A) it's an unequal comparison, since one is hugely positive and the other is hugely negative B) it comes off as horribly shallow and C) as a lesbian, I have to choose the second one by default since I have no interest in the male body or men at all.
And as for the fact that appearance and quality of life are correlated, that doesn't mean it is a good thing. What it says is that people are shallow and mostly only care about looks. By no means should we actually embrace something as perverse as that.
Quote from: 30kps on January 01, 2012, 04:58:31 PM
I see what you mean, but A) it's an unequal comparison, since one is hugely positive and the other is hugely negative B) it comes off as horribly shallow and C) as a lesbian, I have to choose the second one by default since I have no interest in the male body or men at all.
And as for the fact that appearance and quality of life are correlated, that doesn't mean it is a good thing. What it says is that people are shallow and mostly only care about looks. By no means should we actually embrace something as perverse as that.
Yes, it is a purposelfuly superficial and shallow situation that I posted. Yes, it is based solely on appearances. :)
Like I told Zenda, disregard for a moment about how high or low your sex drive is and your sexual orientation -
I guess this thread could be pared down to the very bare bones - "Is it better to be gay and popular or trans and unpopular?" Since transition is based on changing on how you appear to others and being gay doesnt require transition, which would it be worth it?
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 03:55:20 PM
So you d rather sit home lonely night after night with no phone calls or emails from anybody and staring in the mirror, thinking, "Damn, I m ugly as hell"
than....
going out night after night with plenty of friends and having any hot gay man you could have and staring in the mirror thinking, "Damn, I m hot as hell"
I don't believe you ladies, lol. unless you enjoy that kind of boredom, loneliness, and depression
Transition is not about how attractive you will be or how much sex you will have it's about being happy with how you look and live your life.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 01, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
One does not need to be physically attractive to live a happy, fulfilling and eventful life.
Totally the truth.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 04:33:30 PM
True that, but there is still a correlation between apperances and quality of life - beautiful or handsome people tend to have it better and more doors opened for them than ugly ones
And you are assuming that people need those "doors" opened for them to be happy and fulfilled in life.
I'd say option #2 as well. I'm not doing this for sexual purposes i'm doing this because I identify as female not male or even a gay male. Now don't get me wrong I want sex (who doesn't? lol) but it's not the driving force behind my transition. If sex is what you're after then transition is probably not the best road to take in my opinion.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 04:33:30 PM
True that, but there is still a correlation between apperances and quality of life - beautiful or handsome people tend to have it better and more doors opened for them than ugly ones
As far as the original false dichotomy, I'll say this: I passed on that life once; I will pass on it twice.
As far as the boatload of assumptions behind it, I'll just point to the many of us who have actually lived the charmed life you describe and
still transitioned anyway.
Quote from: raya on January 01, 2012, 05:17:13 PM
As far as the original false dichotomy, I'll say this: I passed on that life once; I will pass on it twice.
As far as the boatload of assumptions behind it, I'll just point to the many of us who have actually lived the charmed life you describe and still transitioned anyway.
Yeah, that is what I am wondering - who could have been gay
and popular but chose to transition anyway .., because from what I see and understand, most of the trans women
were heterosexual prior to transitioning, so i m not surprised that homosexuality is unappealing to them.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 05:21:10 PM
who could have been gay and popular but chose to transition anyway
trans people.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
Transition is not about how attractive you will be or how much sex you will have it's about being happy with how you look and live your life.
Totally ficitious - we all are born to appreciate beauty . Experiments have showed that even infants react better and happier to pics of gorgeous people than ugly ones. Transition is about appearances and the degree of beauty and appearance is correlated, like it or not,.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 05:13:58 PM
And you are assuming that people need those "doors" opened for them to be happy and fulfilled in life.
But the more doors opened, the more potential for your life to be happier and even more fulfilled
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 05:23:10 PM
trans people.
what do you mean ? like i said, most of the MTFs were hetero men before they transitioned thus the concept of being gay is repugnant to them, so I am not surprised heh
I was the first option.. and I'm happily taking the second option.
And why am I happy to take the second option? I'm not a man, can't be a man, never was one.. And I'd rather have a partner that is not solely wrapped up in appearances and will take my character and personality in to account.. Shallow people are not a turn on for me anyway..
Transition isn't about being a beauty queen. Sure I think we all would like to look like super models but that just isn't gonna happen for some so should they just not transition and be miserable just because they will probably never attract anyone? - No absolutely not, transition is not about sex it's about being who you really are and not living a lie. ::)
I'm post-op, aren't pretty and don't even pass most of the time.
I'm somewhat lonely and doubt anyone will ever love me.
Would I do it all again? Hell yeah, in an eyeblink!
- does that answer your question? ;D
If you are still currently awash with testosterone then whether you are consciously aware of it or not sexual activity is a core fundamental of your psyche and you cannot imagine what it is actually like to not have that.
I enjoy sex, but it is now an option that I can choose IF I find someone attractive enough. IMO male sex-drive is a permanent itch and one is looking for someone to scratch it - almost anyone above a certain theshold of fugliness will do, and the more it itches the lower that threshold is. :laugh:
Kia Ora Ms Daz,
::) Your views on sexuality and your obsession with 'appearance' and 'sex' is truly intriguing...Not that it's a bad thing,[whatever rocks ones boat I say]... I'm just fascinated by it...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 05:50:34 PM
Transition isn't about being a beauty queen. Sure I think we all would like to look like super models but that just isn't gonna happen for some so should they just not transition and be miserable just because they will probably never attract anyone? - No absolutely not, transition is not about sex it's about being who you really are and not living a lie. ::)
It may be hard for you to believe, but transition
also doesn't have to be always about being who you are, either. People transition for a variety of reasons. That is one reason a myth was mentioned in the other thread titled "Myths vs. Reality about transgender people"...
Transgender people must have a deep hatred of their genitalia to the point of suicide where they must transition or else I m sure you know what the reality is, right? ::)
For some people, transition is just a better option for them based solely on appearances. I submit "I'm Ugly as a Guy, I'm going to be a really ugly woman, i have no hope left" thread created by Syms29 as evidence.
Quote from: Steffi on January 01, 2012, 05:56:49 PM
If you are still currently awash with testosterone then whether you are consciously aware of it or not sexual activity is a core fundamental of your psyche and you cannot imagine what it is actually like to not have that.
I enjoy sex, but it is now an option that I can choose IF I find someone attractive enough. IMO male sex-drive is a permanent itch and one is looking for someone to scratch it - almost anyone above a certain theshold of fugliness will do, and the more it itches the lower that threshold is. :laugh:
No, I have been on hormones for two months now and testosterone is practically next to nil in my system at this point.
I've always had a female sex drive prior to transitioning, though. Yes, I participated in promisicous sexual behavior but that is hardly exclusive to either gender. Now after hormones, I feel the stronger need to cuddle and for intimacy rather than sex, but it has been always there since, just magnified by hormones now.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
It may be hard for you to believe, but transition also doesn't have to be always about being who you are, either. People transition for a variety of reasons. That is one reason a myth was mentioned in the other thread titled "Myths vs. Reality about transgender people"...
Transgender people must have a deep hatred of their genitalia to the point of suicide where they must transition or else
I m sure you know what the reality is, right? ::)
For some people, transition is just a better option for them based solely on appearances. I submit "I'm Ugly as a Guy, I'm going to be a really ugly woman, i have no hope left" thread created by Syms29 as evidence.
What are you saying exactly? That some people who were assigned male at birth and identify as male transition to female so that they can have sex with men?
As much as I get depressed about being "lonely" (despite going out multiple times a week, and still being that shy person) and getting extremely dysphoric about whether I'll look good or not months down the line.
I would still pick option #2, because I'm not a guy, I never want to live as a guy, no matter how popular or sexually active I am (for one thing being sexually active as a guy, ergo much penis use would make me very dysphoric).
To me the options aren't one very positive one and one very negative one, the options are both two very negative ones as I'd be miserable living as a popular attractive guy (gay or not, plus being hot as a guy would be no different than being ugly as a guy for me, as I'd still be a guy) and I'd be miserable about being ugly and lonely. But option #2 has the appeal of at least being comfortable as myself.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
It may be hard for you to believe, but transition also doesn't have to be always about being who you are, either. People transition for a variety of reasons. That is one reason a myth was mentioned in the other thread titled "Myths vs. Reality about transgender people"...
Transgender people must have a deep hatred of their genitalia to the point of suicide where they must transition or else
I don't remember saying anything about people having to transition because they hate their genitals but mkay. All I said was that you shouldn't base your decision to transition on looks alone.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
What are you saying exactly? That some people who were assigned male at birth and identify as male transition to female so that they can have sex with men?
Yeah it seems like that doesn't it? I asked her that question in another thread and she got mad and smited me lol! :laugh:
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 06:21:13 PM
It may be hard for you to believe, but transition also doesn't have to be always about being who you are, either. People transition for a variety of reasons.
*ker-snip*
If "Appearances" and "sex" are why
you are transitioning, more power to you. Nobody is denying you your motivation or your right to transition. All I ask is that you allow others the same courtesy.
I think I'd rather be the gay dude. Not having a social life or sex, and having to look at my ugly self in the mirror would be just as upsetting as looking in the mirror with dysphoria. The other thing I should mention is that ugliness =/= no social life. Plenty of ugly people have friends. So you're handicapping the female choice big time.
Before everyone jumps on me- let me explain. This does not mean I am transitioning purely so I can be a pretty girl. I'd be content being a 4/10 so to speak. Dysphoria for me is very appearance and socialization related. If I just looked like an ugly man in a dress, and nobody accepted me, and I have no friends, I don't think my mental state would be much better. I'd still have dysphoria of a sort. There are other neuroses than GID- crippling depression would hardly be any better. At least as a gay dude I'd have something to distract me from it. Ultimately the question is one of happiness. Just being a woman isn't magically going to save you from depression, anxiety, and anger from lack of sex, low self esteem, and no social contact. Life as a women isn't all lollipops and vaginas! If you think this, you are hardly any better than somebody who is transitioning solely to be pretty!
However in my case, neither option is likely. I am not a gay man, nor am I interested in m/m sex. Also, I am fairly young and good looking. I think with the proper effort, I should be a pretty girl. I'm not sure the question applies- I'm not gay now. Would I become gay? If this is the case, is it unreasonable to question if I still have GID?
For me it's a question of going from a decent looking straight guy with GID to a (hopefully) decent looking bi girl without GID.
Being an ugly trans woman is not the same as being a non-passable Trans woman.
None of us are completely passable but I know I'll be quite passable so it's worth it to me to transition. If I look like an ugly woman that's ok.
If I was terrible as passing then no I wouldn't do it. This doesn't mean I'm less trans than anyone else, I've just seen the gravely disastrous life those kinds of trans women are in. Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
I'm sorry for all the militant people I'm offending but it's not supportive or kind keep silent on this issue. And it would go against my conscience.
Kia Ora,
::) "Ugliness is a property of a person or thing that is unpleasant to look upon and results in a highly unfavorable evaluation. To be ugly is to be aesthetically unattractive, repulsive, or offensive.[31] Like its opposite, beauty, ugliness involves a subjective judgment and is at least partly in the "eye of the beholder." Thus, the perception of ugliness can be mistaken or short-sighted, as in the story of The Ugly Duckling by Hans Christian Andersen !"
::) " Although ugliness is normally viewed as a visible characteristic, it can also be an internal attribute. For example, an individual could be outwardly attractive but inwardly thoughtless and cruel !"
::) Without ugliness there can be no beauty and without beauty there can be no ugliness..It's all based upon the individual's perception...
::) It's an oldie but a goody "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!"
An Old or A Young Woman (how to find them) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9gPFVreivk&feature=related#)
Metta Zenda :)
Allow me to rephrase that- If I were an extremely ugly women (even if passing), it would still be hard to look in the mirror. Why would I want to go from hating to what I see in the mirror to hating what I see in the mirror? I guess passing makes the question a whole lot harder, but even still, like I said- I'd rather be an otherwise happy/psychologically normal gay guy with GID (inasmuch as one can be otherwise happy with GID) than a miserable woman with all the psychological baggage that comes from body image issues and social isolation and sexual frustration. I think at least.
It's a question of GID vs. body image issues, social isolation, anxiety, and no sex. Both angles come with a side serving of depression. You really lose either way. May as well get sex, good looks, and a healthy social life out of the deal.
For many trans women though it is a false dichotomy. For some, fixing their GID can help them with body image issues, social troubles, and even sex life. But the OP's question precludes this.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
What are you saying exactly? That some people who were assigned male at birth and identify as male transition to female so that they can have sex with men?
Sigh... I ll copy and paste what I wrote in the other thread titled "When did you realize that you were not really gay but trans?":
Re: When did you realize you're not really Gay but Trans?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 07:11:34 pm »Quote Modify Remove Quote from: Asha on Today at 07:02:46 pm
Yikes...so your really just a gay guy who became a woman for more sex? I ve been always trans since birth, but led a gay lifestyle when puberty hit because I thought it was me becaue I did not know better and my feminine interests was oppressed growing up. Also there was no Internet back there and I did not know anybody who was transgender until I finally got to college 10 years ago. I was gay throughout college and tried out that lifestyle but it was not working for me and I preferred being a trans woman so I decided to transition.Again, sex with men was A FACTOR in my decision to transition, yes, but it was NOT just the SOLE and DEFINING FACTOR.
I dunno how many times I can say this again and again.
I regard myself as already being a woman, but my anatomy would suggest that I am male. Does that make me an "ugly woman"? I'm bi, so going either way would be about equally limiting. As for being lonely, I've already been there; for many years, actually. (Finally found a wonderful woman who loved me "before" and also looks forward to "after" almost as much as I do.)
I guess if I am limited to only "hot gay man" or "ugly straight woman" I'd have to choose the latter because at least then I would feel self-consistent. Besides, there are options for dealing with "ugly" in most cases.
Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 08:41:16 PM
I don't remember saying anything about people having to transition because they hate their genitals but mkay. All I said was that you shouldn't base your decision to transition on looks alone.
Yeah it seems like that doesn't it? I asked her that question in another thread and she got mad and smited me lol! :laugh:
You are misinterperting what I said - I didn't decide just on looks alone to transition. Among other factors, looks was one of those factors.
About smiting, I am not walking into that one.
Quote from: raya on January 01, 2012, 08:56:06 PM
If "Appearances" and "sex" are why you are transitioning, more power to you. Nobody is denying you your motivation or your right to transition. All I ask is that you allow others the same courtesy.
See above about why I transitioned.
I do show others the courtesty - i don't question why they transitioned. The purpose of this thread was to see how important popularity and appearances are to people here.
Quote from: 0451 on January 01, 2012, 09:04:23 PM
I think I'd rather be the gay dude. Not having a social life or sex, and having to look at my ugly self in the mirror would be just as upsetting as looking in the mirror with dysphoria. The other thing I should mention is that ugliness =/= no social life. Plenty of ugly people have friends. So you're handicapping the female choice big time.
Before everyone jumps on me- let me explain. This does not mean I am transitioning purely so I can be a pretty girl. I'd be content being a 4/10 so to speak. Dysphoria for me is very appearance and socialization related. If I just looked like an ugly man in a dress, and nobody accepted me, and I have no friends, I don't think my mental state would be much better. I'd still have dysphoria of a sort. There are other neuroses than GID- crippling depression would hardly be any better. At least as a gay dude I'd have something to distract me from it. Ultimately the question is one of happiness. Just being a woman isn't magically going to save you from depression, anxiety, and anger from lack of sex, low self esteem, and no social contact. Life as a women isn't all lollipops and vaginas! If you think this, you are hardly any better than somebody who is transitioning solely to be pretty!
However in my case, neither option is likely. I am not a gay man, nor am I interested in m/m sex. Also, I am fairly young and good looking. I think with the proper effort, I should be a pretty girl. I'm not sure the question applies- I'm not gay now. Would I become gay? If this is the case, is it unreasonable to question if I still have GID?
For me it's a question of going from a decent looking straight guy with GID to a (hopefully) decent looking bi girl without GID.
+1 to this ... Also, you clarified my point precisely. Thanks!!
Quote from: 0451 on January 01, 2012, 09:47:55 PM
Allow me to rephrase that- If I were an extremely ugly women (even if passing), it would still be hard to look in the mirror. Why would I want to go from hating to what I see in the mirror to hating what I see in the mirror? I guess passing makes the question a whole lot harder, but even still, like I said- I'd rather be an otherwise happy/psychologically normal gay guy with GID (inasmuch as one can be otherwise happy with GID) than a miserable woman with all the psychological baggage that comes from body image issues and social isolation and sexual frustration. I think at least.
It's a question of GID vs. body image issues, social isolation, anxiety, and no sex. Both angles come with a side serving of depression. You really lose either way. May as well get sex, good looks, and a healthy social life out of the deal.
Exactly - and I get blasted for even questioning why one would rather be an ugly and depressed hetero woman than a hot gay man if given a chance to redo life with either those two choices as a blank human slate being. ???
i would want to be an ugly woman because if other people have problems with me i always ask myself :
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi845.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab11%2Fxmandeh%2Fdoigivea-%253E-bleeped-%253C-.gif&hash=df905c48aba2585075256fe6df0f891b72c65dea)
and the answer is always : nope.
Quote from: Zenda on January 01, 2012, 09:39:58 PM
An Old or A Young Woman (how to find them) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9gPFVreivk&feature=related#)
Metta Zenda :)
lol, I remember this illusion - when I saw it for the first time some years ago, I saw BOTH the young and old woman simulatenously.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 10:25:06 PM
lol, I remember this illusion - when I saw it for the first time some years ago, I saw BOTH the young and old woman simulatenously.
Kia Ora Ms Daz,
::) To see both is good [ones perception is balanced so to speak], however to see 'just' the person [in a non judgmental way] is even better ! IMHO!
Metta Zenda :)
Actually for some ts transitioning is a matter of life and death, they would rather die then live as a guy in
any aspect which includes being a gay guy. For them looking female is important but it is not the deciding factor in wether or not they should do this. I guess it depends on the level of dysphoria one feels about their body, some have it worse then others.
I personally would rather transition even if I wasn't pretty. For someone that is truly ts asking them if they would rather be a gay man is kind of insulting if you ask me. I don't want to be a man anything.....i'd rather be an ugly woman and be comfortable in my own skin then be someone i'm not just to make others comfortable around me.
If I couldn't transition i'd probably kill myself, that's how strongly I feel about it. Again it all depends on your level of dysphoria.
Quote from: Zarania on January 01, 2012, 10:22:37 PM
i would want to be an ugly woman because if other people have problems with me i always ask myself :
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi845.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab11%2Fxmandeh%2Fdoigivea-%253E-bleeped-%253C-.gif&hash=df905c48aba2585075256fe6df0f891b72c65dea)
and the answer is always : nope.
LOL that made my day! :D
Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 10:50:16 PM
Actually for some ts transitioning is a matter of life and death, they would rather die then live as a guy in any aspect which includes being a gay guy. For them looking female is important but it is not the deciding factor in wether or not they should do this. I guess it depends on the level of dysphoria one feels about their body, some have it worse then others.
I personally would rather transition even if I wasn't pretty. For someone that is truly ts asking them if they would rather be a gay man is kind of insulting if you ask me. I don't want to be a man anything.....i'd rather be an ugly woman and be comfortable in my own skin then be someone i'm not just to make others comfortable around me.
If I couldn't transition i'd probably kill myself, that's how strongly I feel about it. Again it all depends on your level of dysphoria.
Right - nothing i didn't already know. Your deep gender dyshporia is obviouly the significant factor in your transition and it is no less valid than any other factor that comes into play such as looks nor it is any more superior.
Transition includes
altering appearances, so I don't see what the big fuss is about drawing a
correlatioin between quality of life, happiness, and popularity with
appearances. Sorry but it is kinda hiding your head in the sand if you pretend ugly or beautiful/handsome appearances have zero impact on self-esteem and quality of life.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:08:21 PM
Sorry but it is kinda hiding your head in the sand if you pretend ugly or beautiful/handsome appearances have zero impact on self-esteem and quality of life.
No one is saying it doesn't impact ones self-esteem and quality of life. ::)
Some people just don't care what others think and are happy just being themselves, is that hard to understand?
I realize this entire thread is hypothetical, but just keep in mind the saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You can do all you want to make yourself pretty, someone may still find you unattractive. Thus, it really does come down to an image of self-liking. If I could [hypothetically] find a way to make my ugliness bearable and work for my liking, well, that's all that really matters. If I couldn't, I'd still be content in knowing I wasn't the very thing I despise once being, whether having been good looking or not.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 01, 2012, 11:26:01 PM
If I couldn't, I'd still be content in knowing I wasn't the very thing I despise once being, whether good looking or not.
+ 1 Amy, I feel the same way.
Quote from: Asha on January 01, 2012, 11:17:48 PM
No one is saying it doesn't impact ones self-esteem and quality of life. ::)
Some people just don't care what others think and are happy just being themselves, is that hard to understand?
That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we
all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.
We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.
I get hit on by men when I leave hayward... Would I waste my time transitioning if I couldn't land a straight guy(straight is a relative term here)...No I wouldn't.
To me, being trans is more about appearances than feeling "female". I am the same person I was as before...Just lookin more fabulous.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.
Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.
But you seem to care way too much about what others think.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 11:43:39 PM
Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.
But you seem to care way too much about what others think.
Actually it's important to care what others think.
I am almost 30. I want to live the life of a professional...which means ultimately conformity. Something I look forward to doin.
Quote from: Andy8715 on January 01, 2012, 11:43:39 PM
Of course otherwise we'd spend all day in our houses worrying about what people would think about this or that so we'd never do anything, we'd never live our lives.
But you seem to care way too much about what others think.
I was upfront about having looks being
one of the reasons for my transition and I got blasted for that - yes, I care about what others think about how I look; at least I am not deluding myself or hiding my head in the sand. I value good looks just as much as I do intelligence, compassion, etc. If it is shallow to say you would prefer to stay a hot and popular gay guy, then it is a sad day when you don't realize that appearances and happiness go in hand and has nothing to do with superficiality. It is just how it is. Evolution designed us to select the most good looiking people to procreate.
I gotta give Syms29 a +1 because in spite of her craziness, at least she is honest that appearance is an important deciding factor for her to transition or not.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
That is a typical defensive mechanism and rather Pollyanna Sunshine - "I don't care about what others think". Reality check - we all do deep inside. Evolution designed human beings to be social mammals, dependent on each other for support and nuturing.
We just tell ourselves and others "I don't care about what others think" to mask our fears, insecurities, and unmet needs.
Your reality and mine must be different.. I really don't care, something my therapist spent a rather annoying hour digging around trying to disprove. I have enough family and friends in my life who are caring and supportive, that I'm able to not care what the rest of the world thinks. I'm happy with who I am and where I'm heading.. On the topic of sex, I have 2 guys and a girl who are attracted to me and happy to oblige..
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 02, 2012, 12:10:59 AM
Your reality and mine must be different.. I really don't care, something my therapist spent a rather annoying hour digging around trying to disprove. I have enough family and friends in my life who are caring and supportive, that I'm able to not care what the rest of the world thinks. I'm happy with who I am and where I'm heading.. On the topic of sex, I have 2 guys and a girl who are attracted to me and happy to oblige..
Something must have happened to embitter you to the point where you truly
feel like you don't
indeed care about what others think. Perhaps constant ridicule or harassment to the point where you become volcanic and had enough?
Yeah, that is true - some need to really shut down all feelings about what others think to survive. I am just saying it is a
normal human trait and to say otherwise is hiding your head in the sand.
Anyhooo.... congrats! Sounds like your socia life is taking off! :)
Yes, looks are important to some, but surely not all (I for one do care, but it is not the reason I am transitioning). If no one claimed to care, none of us would be concerned with passing. BUT, as said; passing does not necessarily equal being attractive, and vice versa. As for option #1 - it cannot be assumed that just because a handful of trans people were once content with their previous gender, that all of us were; this is simply not the case. I could not be happy as a gay male, and I can assure you the "gay" part is not the issue. I despise once being male, despite acknowledging it. Hell, for all I know, as a guy I could have been unattractive, and for all I know once my transition is complete I could be unattractive as a woman (despite how much I do care about my looks) - that's life. Not every woman who has less-than-glam looks is unhappy, and not every gay guy who has charming looks is happy. We are who we are and make peace with that first; being attractive is merely an added bonus.
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 02, 2012, 12:15:11 AM
Ya, I care about how I look. A lot. I was also suicidally depressed when I was trying to live as a guy. Where is option 3) corpse? 'Cause that would have been my choice.
lol don't jump on me but did you ever try being gay when presenting as a male ? Just wondering
While I think I understand where you are coming from, I'll continue to get my psychiatric and psychological advice from my therapist.. After the hour of digging around in my head, even he was forced to admit that it was an amazingly healthy concept.. And somewhat surprising, given my personal history.
I also think you may misunderstand me slightly, I do care what my friends and family think of me.. It's the rest of the world I don't give a crap about..
MsDazzler, your perspective is interesting. I never thought people would "choose" to be trans purely based on attractiveness and popularity. From reading this forum for a few years, I've learned that it's something deep within. I do understand that you think life is much better and happier if a person is attractive, though not all attractive people are popular. They may attract people initially and may be able to hold the attention of someone for a period of time even, but if there's nothing else there, it won't last (happily anyway). I see plenty of unattractive people every day who are married with families and who seem quite happy.
I guess I don't see how being a hot gay male with all sorts of people chasing him and having one-night stands every night equates to being happy, nor do I think that being an unattractive female means a life of loneliness and misery. It just simply isn't true.
I do respect your feelings about yourself and believe that you are being honest. It's just different than what I've seen here by most trans people. I think everyone is trying to find happiness and what makes each person happy is different.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 12:17:17 AM
Yes, looks are important to some, but surely not all (I for one do care, but it is not the reason I am transitioning). If no one claimed to care, none of us would be concerned with passing. BUT, as said; passing does not necessarily equal being attractive, and vice versa. As for option #1 - it cannot be assumed that just because a handful of trans people were once content with their previous gender, that all of us were; this is simply not the case. I could not be happy as a gay male, and I can assure you the "gay" part is not the issue. I despise once being male, despite acknowledging it. Hell, for all I know, as a guy I could have been unattractive, and for all I know once my transition is complete I could be unattractive as a woman (despite how much I do care about my looks) - that's life. Not every woman who has less-than-glam looks is unhappy, and not every gay guy who has charming looks is happy. We are who we are and make peace with that first; being attractive is merely an added bonus.
Yes I know that being attractive does not automatically equate popularity nor being ugly automatically equate isolation.
But as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion,
suppose you could be,
indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or
indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life,
given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....
That is what people seems not to be getting here. Is being gay such a repugnant concept that you can't fathom being happy as one?
Well, for me this is actually my present problem...
I must chosee between be a almost atractive guy, straigh / bisexual ...maybe a bit androginous..if i got lucky whit my transform.
or be whatever i got..but maybe a not passable, maybe not atractive woman... solitary..because the lesbian girl surely will never want to date whit me.
In a utopic situation i would say "sure!! i am a woman no matter if i would be ugly!!" but..is not so easy for me..and i really believe that is natural feel this.because...one female desire always is feel herself atractive..beuty...
Of course this used to crush in one point...no matters how much hot you are as guy...the straigh girls..usually dont put to much attention to your manly beuty..they see more your personality...and others factors...and of course..how my personality is more female than male...i used to loose any chance whit a woman that want be whit a man....
So just to end..i am not sure what i would chosee...in some months maybe i told you XD
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 02, 2012, 12:49:21 AM
I'm not sure why you'd think I would jump on you, but I'm gay, so that kinda doesn't work. I wished I was a gay boy sometimes, instead of a girl, you know. It would have been so much simpler. I made a slight pretty andro boy - to the point that I accidentally passed as a girl rather a lot. But I wasn't really interested in dating anyone, regardless of gender. The idea of being with someone without disclosing what I was horrified me, and I was too scared to disclose. Add that to my body dysphoria and the testosterone-induced depression and I just couldn't give a ->-bleeped-<- about being with anyone.
I did try one relationship before transitioning. She'd known I was trans for a year before we got together. It was still... complicated. And I wouldn't have done it again.
I'm not resilient enough to survive the kinds of situations you are suggesting. I didn't really care about breathing enough as it was. I'm just not a very brave girl.
Well because people seem to fire bullets or get hissy every time the subject of homosexuality is approached... and I was flamed for
merely suggesting that having an existence of being a popular, happy, and hot gay guy
might be preferrable to an existence of an unpopular, depressed, and unattradtive woman given a chance at a life redo. Not only this thread but any other gay-related thread (unless it is lesbian-related)
It just has feelings of internalized homophobia carried over from having led lives as hetero men with lack of exposure to the LGBT community or being ingrained with homophobic doctrine or being around other people who were homophobic while growing up.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 02, 2012, 01:05:14 AM
MsDazzler, your perspective is interesting. I never thought people would "choose" to be trans purely based on attractiveness and popularity. From reading this forum for a few years, I've learned that it's something deep within. I do understand that you think life is much better and happier if a person is attractive, though not all attractive people are popular. They may attract people initially and may be able to hold the attention of someone for a period of time even, but if there's nothing else there, it won't last (happily anyway). I see plenty of unattractive people every day who are married with families and who seem quite happy.
I guess I don't see how being a hot gay male with all sorts of people chasing him and having one-night stands every night equates to being happy, nor do I think that being an unattractive female means a life of loneliness and misery. It just simply isn't true.
I do respect your feelings about yourself and believe that you are being honest. It's just different than what I've seen here by most trans people. I think everyone is trying to find happiness and what makes each person happy is different.
Thank you :) But again I emphasize, attractiveness and popularity are
some of the factors that make people decide to transition or not.
I know few trans friends in real life who were depressed and lonely ugly gay men but transformed in stunningly beautiful MTFs and became popular. Just saying that there are people out there who transitioned for other reasons than the "I must or I die" reason. We would be judgmental to take the higher moral ground to say one reason is less valid or better than another.
Besides, Syms29 has been pretty upfront about her reasons for wanting to transition and it has nothing to do with "I must or I die"... Is she bonkers? Maybe so, maybe she definitely needs a shrink first.... but we can't pass judgment on her. If she rather transition to have a better life as a stunning woman than a life as an ugly man, so be it. For her, quality of life based on appearances is a high priority.
Quoteut as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion, suppose you could be, indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life, given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....
Well, if you put it this way, meaning that a person has no power to make oneself be liked and loved (which is unrealistic, but if we're talking Twilight Zone scenarios....), then yes, I would choose to be the happy hot gay guy!
Well, not my case... i have a lot of exposure in the LGTB community..because have gay friends...my sister is lesbian..and well i used to explore my sexuality whit men too...that explation end whit the discover that i dont liek men :P..but sometimes i got some fanties about them...so maybe i am a bit bisexual who knos..or maybe men ar jut a kinky for me...
Well to the point...in my case..a i told in other post... the "man to man" thing and the "strigh woman whit striagh men" thing ... make me react inside (but try to dont explode and do the kind of comment that you refer... because some lesbian women feel the same competitiveness or disgust against men that some gay men feel against women (my gay friend used to dislike and hate women...whit some few exceptions)
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 01:22:39 AM
Well because people seem to fire bullets or get hissy every time the subject of homosexuality is approached... and I was flamed for merely suggesting that having an existence of being a popular, happy, and hot gay guy might be preferrable to an existence of an unpopular, depressed, and unattradtive woman. Not only this thread but any other gay-related thread (unless it is lesbian-related)
Well, that's pretty ->-bleeped-<-. If it makes you feel any better, there's been some pretty nasty lesbian-related threads too. The posts that imply I'm not really female 'cause I like girls, or I'm just confused about my sexuality, or I'm not feminine enough to be a real girl... The forums go through cycles.
It's sad to see people getting all twisted up over other peoples' identities and experiences. How much effort does it really take to just let people BE, and not make assumptions and judgments? What happened to diversity being a good thing? Bleh. I'd rather talk about skin care. :-\
MsDazzler, I think everyone has a right to make their own choices for their lives and shouldn't be questioned, or maybe they should only for their sake -- to make sure they don't make irreparable mistakes. I think some people here have it easier because they live in an accepting community with very accepting family members and friends while others live in quite the opposite environment. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think a person in an accepting environment may transition without having the extreme "do or die" dysphoria. Whereas a transperson with very little dysphoria in a very conservative, restrictive community may not transition, but would if he/she were in a more open and accepting environment.
Quote from: Sarah7 on January 02, 2012, 01:38:18 AM
Well, that's pretty ->-bleeped-<-. If it makes you feel any better, there's been some pretty nasty lesbian-related threads too. The posts that imply I'm not really female 'cause I like girls, or I'm just confused about my sexuality, or I'm not feminine enough to be a real girl... The forums go through cycles.
It's sad to see people getting all twisted up over other peoples' identities and experiences. How much effort does it really take to just let people BE, and not make assumptions and judgments? What happened to diversity being a good thing? Bleh. I'd rather talk about skin care. :-\
this answer have a lot of sense. Usually all we have diferent experience of life....and is not easy understand others. Usualyl as a lesbian transgender..i dont have any support where i live....hhere all the other trans girls that i meet are straight...and dont believe that a trans woman can be lesbian :P
Quote from: sonopoly on January 02, 2012, 01:28:40 AM
Well, if you put it this way, meaning that a person has no power to make oneself be liked and loved (which is unrealistic, but if we're talking Twilight Zone scenarios....), then yes, I would choose to be the happy hot gay guy!
+1 to this - she understands what i am driving at
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 01:19:02 AM
But as I patiently repeat, for the sake of discussion, suppose you could be, indeed a popular and hot gay guy with a happy and fulfilling life or indeed an unpopular and fugly woman with a zero social life, given a chance to redo your life prior to transitioning or hell, before you were born and God presented you with two choices....
That is what people seems not to be getting here. Is being gay such a repugnant concept that you can't fathom being happy as one?
You're asking a question in which is so hypothetical in nature that you're insisting we not put any actual true emotion into it. Thus, I interpret this question to imply I would be utterly brain-dead, however given just enough brain power to understand the two choices and the ability to press button A or button B, which in turn would choose my lifestyle. Given this; a complete memory wipe, no prior dysphoria or knowledge of being trans, and the ability to choose a lifestyle that would either guarantee happiness via being an attractive homosexual male or misery via being an unattractive woman, of course the majority of us would pick A. Seeing as these are simply ludicrous stipulations even in the form of being hypothetical, I cannot bring myself to answer the question despite my inadvertent doing so in my prior sentence. However, with actual true emotion added to the equation, I remain with choice B.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 01:45:09 AM
You're asking a question in which is so hypothetical in nature that you're insisting we not put any actual true emotion into it. Thus, I interpret this question to imply I would be utterly brain-dead, however given just enough brain power to understand the two choices and the ability to press button A or button B, which in turn would choose my lifestyle. Given this; a complete memory wipe, no prior dysphoria and knowledge of being trans, and the ability to choose a lifestyle that would either guarantee happiness via being an attractive homosexual male or misery via being an unattractive woman, of course the majority of us would pick A. Seeing as these are simply ludicrous stipulations even in the form of being hypothetical, I cannot bring myself to answer the question despite my inadvertent doing so in my prior sentence. However, with actual true emotion added to the equation, I remain with choice B.
To be honest, when I threw out that hypothetical situation, I was not even expecting strong and intense responses. I thought it was a simple & innocent "this or that" situation - and to see how important appearance/popularity was to people here...
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:11:04 AM
To be honest, when I threw out that hypothetical situation, I was not even expecting strong and intense responses. I thought it was a simple & innocent "this or that" situation - and how important appearance/popularity was to people here...
:laugh: Ya, I figured this thread got out of hand...but is that really so surprising?
Look, I mean nothing negative by my comments. I admire your creativity...even if I don't quite understand it ;)
Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.
I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question.
Quote from: sonopoly on January 02, 2012, 01:42:43 AM
MsDazzler, I think everyone has a right to make their own choices for their lives and shouldn't be questioned, or maybe they should only for their sake -- to make sure they don't make irreparable mistakes. I think some people here have it easier because they live in an accepting community with very accepting family members and friends while others live in quite the opposite environment. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I think a person in an accepting environment may transition without having the extreme "do or die" dysphoria. Whereas a transperson with very little dysphoria in a very conservative, restrictive community may not transition, but would if he/she were in a more open and accepting environment.
I agree - I noticed people who come from LGBT environments tend to have very little "I must or I die" feelings compared those to who do not come from LGBT environments. I presume it is because LGBT culture, especially in San Francisco, is open to gender experimentation so those who transitioned have had already opportuities to express their gender safely over the years so the frustation doesn't get built up over the years from being repressed like one in a midwest, LGBT-devoid culture.
For example, a gay man who grew up arund people who are okay with showing femme characteristics, drag, and transfolks will have opportunities to be able to dress up as a woman in a safe space then eventually decide that he is better off as a woman because he got "previews" of what he would look like and saw that he would be popular. Because he never had to bottle up or repress, it never built to the "I must or I die" volcano.
Contrast this with a hetero man who grows up around homophobic people who say "->-bleeped-<-" at the slightest show of feminiity is bound to have all those feelings and not being able to play with gender presentation building up and bottled until it blows or spiral into a severe depression then "I must or I die" finally happens.
So you see how two different people from different backgrounds might arrive at the point of transitioning for different reasons. It just happens that appearnce and popularity played a role in the guy #1's decision because he had opportubities to "preview", while the guy #2 never really had any "previews" (perhaps aside from discreet and guilty cross dressing in private) so appearance and popularity never enters the picture.
Quote from: Asha on January 02, 2012, 02:25:59 AM
Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.
I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question.
That is what people are NOT getting here. I know of course, transgender people are transgender because they are not happy with their assigned gender at birth. That is patently obvious. I am not challenging whether you are transgender or not.
I just was taken aback when people started insisting appearances and popularity were irrevelant to transition, when in truth,
they are.
And it is an one-sided question? How so?
Would it be more balanced to say, "Would you rather be a popular, happy, and attractive
heterowoman than be an ugly, depressed, and lonely
hetero man?" 100%, not the majority, would choose Option A, of course. ::)
That is why I mixed it up by throwing in the homosexual quality - which apparently stirred the pot for some. heh.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:31:55 AM
That is what people are NOT getting here. I know of course, transgender people are transgender because they are not happy with their assigned gender at birth. That is patently obvious. I am not challenging whether you are transgender or not.
I just was taken aback when people started insisting appearances and popularity were irrevelant to transition, when in truth, they are.
Not for everyone it seems.. And this seems to be something you don't get..
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 10:22:00 PM
Exactly - and I get blasted for even questioning why one would rather be an ugly and depressed hetero woman than a hot gay man if given a chance to redo life with either those two choices as a blank human slate being. ???
Because it entirely changes who we are as a person (at least for me), being a hot gay guy is so very far from being anything close to me I can say if I chose that option that I wouldn't even be me anymore, it'd be like never being born, or being dead.
Quote from: Asha on January 02, 2012, 02:25:59 AM
Yeah I have to agree with Amy, it's like asking "would you rather be rich or would you rather be poor?" obviously people are gonna say they would rather be rich. I think the reason the majority of people here said they would rather be an unattractive girl rather then being a gay guy is because most transsexuals don't want to be a guy period.
I think an equally balanced question would've appealed more to people rather then this one sided question.
To me it's more like "would you rather be poor or would you rather be poor?" being attractive as a guy has never been a desire of mine, attractive masculine traits tend to not be how I want to be seen nor how I want to see myself.
And sure appearance has some factors in, but there's plenty trans girls who were very attractive as guys and popular even, just being attractive as a guy wouldn't be enough to remove dysphoria for some people.
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 02, 2012, 02:36:42 AM
Not for everyone it seems.. And this seems to be something you don't get..
Oh, I do get it really - the unhappier you are with yourself, the less you care about your appearance leading to a decline in popularity. That is a fact. People have commented here that once they transitioned, they were happier and started taking steps to improve their appearances.
So, it is all interwined, really.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:31:55 AM
That is why I mixed it up by throwing in the homosexual quality - which apparently stirred the pot for some. heh.
No hun, what stirred the pot was the implication that we cannot incorporate any true emotions [in relation to being trans] into our decision. Many of us have emotions leading us to become defensive toward any influences suggesting being an attractive [happy] man of any type (sexual orientation irrelevant)
should be more desirable than being an unattractive [miserable] woman. But again, to imply that we cannot incorporate those emotions into our decision, it would seem you're merely asking, "Would you rather be happy or sad?";
man,
woman and
homosexual merely being adjectives causing confusion (unintentionally, I presume), offering no direct purpose without emotion being involved in the answer.
I get what you were asking, I really do. But it just doesn't work that way. We can't provide an answer without true emotion; any attempts to do so naturally and automatically would seem to lead all of us to choose option A; any denial of this is merely emotion becoming involved.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 02:40:34 AM
Oh, I do get it really - the unhappier you are with yourself, the less you care about your appearance leading to a decline in popularity. That is a fact. People have commented here that once they transitioned, they were happier and started taking steps to improve their appearances.
So, it is all interwined, really.
I'm not unhappy.. Not at all, and trust me, I know what unhappiness is.. I'm quite happy being me.. However that might turn out..
At this point, I can only assume there's a difference in cultures. I'm an Australian.. and we Aussie's are well known for not giving a rat's ass what people think..
I have to agree with Amy here -- she explained it perfectly, though I do understand MsDazz a bit. I do think that being attractive is great and can be a real privilege especially for a woman. I think that most people who are unattractive get used to it early in life and accept it while hopefully doing what they can to make themselves more attractive. I don't think this is being shallow, but just taking pride in one's appearance. Anyway, I think people get over that they'll never be beauty queens or have men constantly chasing them early and move on, and work on other qualities and talents which make them attractive.
I think if a beautiful woman gets in an accident where her face is disfigured then that would be so much more difficult to cope with than the person who was unattractive in the first place. I think this is similar to the thinking of transitioning from man to woman, because the change is more conscious and sudden and the idea of appearance is more important. I'm probably not making sense and not articulating this very well, but maybe someone can make sense of this!
Kelly, you are a very pretty lady.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 02:46:31 AM
No hun, what stirred the pot was the implication that we cannot incorporate any true emotions [in relation to being trans] into our decision. Many of us have emotions leading us to become defensive toward any influences suggesting being an attractive [happy] man of any type (sexual orientation irrelevant) should be more desirable than being an unattractive [miserable] woman. But again, to imply that we cannot incorporate those emotions into our decision, it would seem you're merely asking, "Would you rather be happy or sad?"; man, woman and homosexual merely being adjectives causing confusion (unintentionally, I presume), offering no direct purpose without emotion being involved in the answer.
I get what you were asking, I really do. But it just doesn't work that way. We can't provide an answer without true emotion; any attempts to do so naturally and automatically would seem to lead all of us to choose option A; any denial of this is merely emotion becoming involved.
It is really similar to the "If you knew you couldn't pass, would you transition, anyway?" thread. That thread was all about appearances. Some passable people there admitted that they wouldn't have transitioned if they knew they couldn't pass or become beautiful in the first place. This is only different because I threw the word "gay" into the picture that got people riled up. :)
Maybe I should have said, "Would you rather be ugly but popular or hot but lonely?" ?
No worries :)
Nonetheless, you did get quite the replies from this thread, no? ;)
It doesn't really have anything to do with the word gay being in the question, people who have said they would pick option #2 have said it is because they're not to be a guys, not that they don't want to be a gay guy. But a guy full stop.
It may not be your intention but throughout this thread it's felt like you've jumped on people just for saying that for them appearance is the most important thing and then being an attractive guy would be no better or in a lot of case worse than being an ugly girl. Because they have a different opinion to you, and then you trying to re-enforce your own ideals on them.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 03:08:11 AM
No worries :)
Nonetheless, you did get quite the replies from this thread, no? ;)
I guess so - i learned quite few things about you guys, heh
Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 03:12:11 AM
It doesn't really have anything to do with the word gay being in the question, people who have said they would pick option #2 have said it is because they're not to be a guys, not that they don't want to be a gay guy. But a guy full stop.
It may not be your intention but throughout this thread it's felt like you've jumped on people just for saying that for them appearance is the most important thing and then being an attractive guy would be no better or in a lot of case worse than being an ugly girl. Because they have a different opinion to you, and then you trying to re-enforce your own ideals on them.
I never said which option you should choose nor said which one is better. I merely presented the choices and got a firing squad in return, lmao
What firing squad? All I see is people saying they pick option 2 because they're not a guy giving reasons for it and you feeling attacked by them for no reason.
Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 03:42:26 AM
What firing squad? All I see is people saying they pick option 2 because they're not a guy and you saying people are flaming you by doing so. ;/
Yeah, I was curious about their reasons for picking option 2 and they got defensive. Then flaming me for asserting that appearances and popularity are
deciding factors for
some people to transition or not, heh.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 03:46:02 AM
Yeah, I was curious about their reasons for picking option 2 and they got defensive. Then flaming me for asserting that appearances and popularity are deciding factors for some people to transition or not, heh.
The only real issue I have in this thread is the assertion that I must be unhappy because I'm able to not care what people who mean nothing to me think.. Something that my therapist assured me was a pretty healthy state of mind - only after he had spent an hour or so picking through my head..
My mum told me that I shouldn't transition because i'll be an ugly woman, then on another occasion she told me that if I went through with this then i'd spend the rest of my life alone.
My answer to these two statements is simple: I'd rather be an ugly woman who dies alone but old & happy with herself than live my life in misery as a man who despises his body, if I try to keep living as a man because it's what others want then I don't know that i'll even make it to old age
Quote from: Jane on January 02, 2012, 02:55:13 PM
My mum told me that I shouldn't transition because i'll be an ugly woman, then on another occasion she told me that if I went through with this then i'd spend the rest of my life alone.
My answer to these two statements is simple: I'd rather be an ugly woman who dies alone but old & happy with herself than live my life in misery as a man who despises his body, if I try to keep living as a man because it's what others want then I don't know that i'll even make it to old age
Yeah we pretty much would prefer to die women, but like I pointed out earlier, this is just a superficial "this or that" dealing with the value of appearance/popularity to individuals.
The option of being gay just threw people for a loop. >:-)
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 01, 2012, 05:11:23 PM
Like I told Zenda, disregard for a moment about how high or low your sex drive is and your sexual orientation -
I guess this thread could be pared down to the very bare bones - "Is it better to be gay and popular or trans and unpopular?" Since transition is based on changing on how you appear to others and being gay doesnt require transition, which would it be worth it?
Err, if one disregards extremely important aspects of themselves to answer this question, how is it an honest answer about the fork they would take? It is no longer them answering the question, but some hypothetical person that is not like them at all. In the case of someone of my nature, being stuck with the options of being male (gay or not) in general or being forever alone would both probably drive me to suicide.
Quote from: Cori on January 02, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
Err, if one disregards extremely important aspects of themselves to answer this question, how is it an honest answer about the fork they would take? It is no longer them answering the question, but some hypothetical person that is not like them at all. In the case of someone of my nature, being stuck with the options of being male (gay or not) in general or being forever alone would both probably drive me to suicide.
Putting aside your deep dyshoric feelings for a second (you can do that, can't you?), can you fathom being with another man as a man and actually happy about it?
I thought not - gender dysphoric or not, it has nothing to do with it... it is internalized homophobia from growing up in an non-LGBT community that is making the fork scenario unpleasant for most people here.
It is
already terrible to even be a man in the first place - I get it. But - the
"ewww, and I would have to be gay also?" factor is the dealbreaker to this fork scenario.
Only one or two posters out of 20+ posters here was even open minded to acknowledge that having a gay existence might not be so bad after all.
Again, I am not pushing my agenda on anyone. I have none...
Just thought I'd share my ruminations after a good night's sleep (lying on my bed in my pink bathrobe as I type this :) )
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 04:14:13 PM
I thought not - gender dysphoric or not, it has nothing to do with it... it is internalized homophobia from growing up in an non-LGBT community that is making the fork scenario unpleasant for most people here.
No, not quite. I grew up in a very open LGBT minded area and one of my good friends has been open about his homosexuality since high school. Nonetheless, I cannot fathom being a [gay] guy. Why? Because
I do not want to be a guy, not because I cringe at the thought of liking men.
But hell, you know what, yes - I guess if I was to
completely throw away anything I've ever felt and known about gender identity and sexual orientation and start a completely brand-spankin'-new life, then perhaps yes, I could be a gay guy. But my gosh hun, given that, I find this question to be quite pointless; the answer inadvertently is always going to be A. I'm almost convinced you planned this thoroughly, knowing the answer would have to be A, just to cause mass amounts of confusion. If you want
honest answers, you will have to allow us to incorporate true feeling into the answers. Otherwise the entire question was rhetorical, as you already knew the answer.
You are beginning to contradict yourself. You say it's a simple hypothetical choice that requires no real emotion put into it. You've given two options, most of us having picked B. Thus, that should be it. But it's not, is it? No. You want to argue why B is not a legit choice and why we all should really have picked A instead. Those who counter-argue are simply misguided, as it must be their suppressed subconscious homophobia causing such a reaction. Please. Your argument suggesting being a guy could be awesome is just as equal to our argument suggesting being a guy is not so awesome; it's opinion, not fact. I didn't like being a guy, plain and simple. There is no underlying reason in addition to my transsexualism, it just is what it is. Let it go.
I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure that every single person in this thread that picked option #2 never once had the thought of "ew no why would I want to be gay" and more had the thought of "I'm a girl, why would I want to be a guy". And rather than not fathoming being a gay guy, they can't fathom being a guy at all.
Quote from: Nurse With Wound on January 02, 2012, 05:25:24 PM
I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure that every single person in this thread that picked option #2 never once had the thought of "ew no why would I want to be gay" and more had the thought of "I'm a girl, why would I want to be a guy". And rather than not fathoming being a gay guy, they can't fathom being a guy at all.
Exactly this.
Sigh... I am being ganged up on. One grrl taking on a whole team of you.
How about a lezzie gangbang instead? :-*
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 05:43:12 PM
Sigh... I am being ganged up on. One grrl taking on a whole team of you.
How about a lezzie gangbang instead? :-*
:laugh:
No thanks.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 05:43:12 PM
How about a lezzie gangbang instead? :-*
^ This is the option I would choose ^ ;D
Seriously I would also choose to be a woman. I have so many interests other than partying and having sex.
Jennifer
Quote from: Jennifer on January 02, 2012, 05:52:42 PM
^ This is the option I would choose ^ ;D
Seriously I would also choose to be a woman. I have so many interests other than partying and having sex.
Jennifer
I've had lezzies pick up on me. It's really hot being a former gay boy picked up on by a ciswoman who doesn't want you to take her shopping or do her makeup.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 05:52:30 PM
:laugh:
No thanks.
Aww, not even a kiss ? You are bi, arent you? :-*
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 11:04:50 PM
Aww, not even a kiss ? You are bi, arent you? :-*
Oh, just
so tempting...
Eh, not quite. Sorry lol.
Quote from: ~Amy~ on January 02, 2012, 11:08:19 PM
Oh, just so tempting...
Eh, not quite. Sorry lol.
I m not even your type? boohoo.
Quote from: MsDazzler on January 02, 2012, 11:12:47 PM
I m not even your type? boohoo.
I hope you don't lose any sleep over it :P