I have recently been using another trans forum, and had a whole lot of negative responses to my being non-binary. Such as being called a man, being told I should not express myself as I make life harder for 'real' trans people etc. I wonder how widespread this is? Susan's is such a cool place 8) I have not seen any of that stuff here, and although I don't post all that much here I do a lot of reading. Has anyone else experienced this in other places online or in the real 3d world?
Hi Saint,
* Has anyone else experienced this in other places .... *
Yes honey, to be very honest - right in my own head, never mind the web!
Now, I could or should be ashamed of this, but I have to admit being of a binary disposition - and I noticed, more so (binary) since being post-op.
I'm at quite a loss with the Androgen disposition... Really.
Also you mention the dislike being called a 'man', - now I'd assume if you were called a 'woman' the same issue would have arisen, right?
It is plain tricky for binary folks to get their head around this disposition. Well, - what we can't feel we can't understand -, I'm the first to admit for myself too.
Some folks consider being BI-sexual being some sort of cop-out, so some would feel quite similar towards the Androgynous disposition. I'm quite sure.
It's bad enough for most cis-folk to get a grip on changing sex, to align with (brain) gender, now try some empathy, and see what comes up when they have to deal with the Andro position...
ONE FEELS LOST!
And feeling lost is not a very nice place to be in. So many react negatively, because it's impossible to actually understand, and what to think of, and call such a person! Shim? Sher? No idea.
I guess it would be anything but... and as such demands one VERY special placement in the scheme of things – and many will just not bother to give you that special placement.
This is just what's coming up for me, I do have some empathy with the pain involved being not accepted - but I think the above will explain why this would be so – when you experience it.
Thoughtful,
Axélle
People build their sense of security out of identity, and we're conditioned from birth with the binary paradigm.
As Axélle said, both gay and het people can be unsettled by bisexuals (and be cruel in consequence), and it's a similar phenomenon when it comes from cis and more "classically" trans people towards those of us who are not simply male or female in our gender identity. I don't expect to be understood; I do, however, expect respect. But as with the response of some gay people towards bisexuals, it's often the already threatened (in this case trans people) who feel more easily threatened by difference, while they're trying to get their own identity accepted.
The best thing you can do is to find people who are supportive, be supportive of them in turn, and forget the ones who are unable to do so.
It's quite understandable considering the very different places a transsexual person and an andro,
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 21, 2012, 05:25:16 AM
It's quite understandable considering the very different places a transsexual person and an andro,
Not to mention us transsexual andros (or is that andro transsexuals?) :). See? Diverse... ;D.
Susan's is better than some, but it definitely happens here. Anything that doesn't fit perfectly along male/man/masculine/het and female/woman/feminine/het comes under attack periodically. And in a strange way a lot of transsexual folks are even more invested in the binary than cis folks since they had to fight so hard to claim their identity.
For me, people are people. I really am not fussed how you identify as long as you are pleasant. But given I'm female/______/androgynous/gay, I guess I'm on the outside of trans* communities anyway, despite being transsexual.
I've spent some months kind of fanning the flames of my "certainty" that being trans but androgyne put me on the outside or fringe of the trans community. But lately, I've been actually paying attention to what people are actually saying to me and how they are with me, and realised nearly all of this "outsider" vibe was invented in my own head.
Pretty much everyone who's going through whatever kind of transition they're going through (anyone who's journeying to arrive in their true selves, whether that's to do with gender or the physical side or whatever) is at times scared and isolated and feels like everyone else except them is doing it right and is part of the gang.
Yes, I've occasionally encountered binary-type prejudice on Susan's, but they're either trying to understand something outside of their experience, or they're not and aren't people I care to like me anyway. I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.
Quote from: Padma on January 22, 2012, 03:38:21 AM
I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.
Too true, people are, on the whole more interested in sorting themselves out and that is largely the case in the outside world also.
I have received a lot of nasty experiences IRL and in the non Androgyne parts of susan's and other on-line forums.
The Androgyne parts of susan's are great but outside of those you may be hit with strange comments. not normally intended to be hurtful but sometimes they seen that way
I am talking more deliberate attacks rather than odd comments that just happen to be offensive. I see how the non-binary thing can be challenging, especially for binary transexuals. I have experience plenty of biphobia from 'gay and lesbian' communities (although most of course are smart and lovely) and can definately see similarities here. It is pretty sad though really cuz one would think that such people would develop some understanding through their own experiences.
Axelle-Michelle; well I can see where you are coming from; for me the gender binary and the gayorstraight thing seem kind of strange and confusing - but I am able to accept that other people see the world and themselves different to me, and accept their difference. It don't seem that complicated really :)
most of the real world attacks on me have been intended to be hurtful, online are mostly not intended to be upsetting
Quote from: saint on January 22, 2012, 06:58:17 AM
[clipped]
Axelle-Michelle; well I can see where you are coming from; for me the gender binary and the gayorstraight thing seem kind of strange and confusing - but I am able to accept that other people see the world and themselves different to me, and accept their difference. It don't seem that complicated really :)
Hi Dear,
come to think of it, I lived in the non-binary for a long time, knowing only partially of course what was going on.
It was an endless situation of everyone and their uncle to go and figure out if I was gay, not gay, straight, not straight, a weirdo, an attractive male, an unattractive male, etc. etc.
It is in my experience tiring, very tiring after trying to figure it even out for myself – and that for quite a long time...
Well, then came the 'big bang' and so now I'm BI as I might have been before... yet not Andro, that be last thing on my menue at present :-)
Life gets at least never boring, or rather seldom :-)
Axélle
Quote from: saint on January 21, 2012, 04:27:41 AM
I have recently been using another trans forum, and had a whole lot of negative responses to my being non-binary. Such as being called a man, being told I should not express myself as I make life harder for 'real' trans people etc. I wonder how widespread this is? Susan's is such a cool place 8) I have not seen any of that stuff here, and although I don't post all that much here I do a lot of reading. Has anyone else experienced this in other places online or in the real 3d world?
Unfortunately human beings in all groups just love to lord it over others who they consider to not have quite arrived at their same level. It's childish and immature behavior, the best way to handle it is to just ignore it and refuse to include them any further in the conversation. It's reverse ostracism and it always works wonders to elicit either an attitude change or an early departure from the ongoing discussion. A good Native American friend of mine who holds a masters degree was getting the negative attitude treatment by a white fellow we both know. Frankly, it infuriated me and I related my feelings to my native friend, who in his own great wisdom told me not to worry about it because it was the white fellow's problem and not his. I had not considered this line of thought before on such matters. Eventually the white fellow had a complete reversal in his attitude toward my native friend. It was an enlightening experience for me.
Quote from: Padma on January 22, 2012, 03:38:21 AM
I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.
Direct prejudice is somewhat rarer, but it happens periodically. Hell, it happened yesterday on Susan's. In fact I had the displeasure of reading the most offensive post I've ever seen on Susan's about same-sex attraction.
But as for just randomly offensive things that people say without realizing what they are doing? That happens constantly. And it becomes a case of either fighting every little tiny battle, or feeling constantly othered, or just walking away entirely. I've moved from the first category to the second, and eventually will proceed to the third, I'm sure. Want a list of the number of times I've seen "If you aren't ready to go outside in a skirt, you aren't ready to transition" or some permutation there of? Just a fairly innocuous example.
I'm glad you are feeling all loved and accepted these days, but I'm not.
I guess I'm on the one hand trying to counter my current tendency to expect trouble (I'm negotiating daily with PTSD at the moment), and on the other hand recognising that there's potential trouble out there, and being prepared to face it.
And the way I'm preparing myself to face it is to make damn sure I'm loved and accepted by me. Well, I have loving friends and supportive people around, but in the end, when I feel clear that who I am in terms of androgyny and bisexuality and femaleness does not require justification or apology, I don't need others to love and accept me on my behalf - and it also seems that when I'm confident in that way, people don't give me a bad time.
This is how I see it and experience it at the moment - subject to change, E&OE etc.
No worries, I in no way meant to invalidate your experience either xx.
Sometimes we can internalize something someone else has said in a way other than it was intended. I have, and I'm sure everyone else has too at one time or another. Best bet is to become an exceptional listener, and when in public learn to read body language, because it often tells more than what is actually being said. I try to have a thicker skin when I'm around others, and not get my panties in a wad over their use of pronouns and other descriptive language that may denigrate my personage. Some people are just ignorant and lack understanding about the GLBTI community, others are willfully ignorant and mean spirited. It's incumbent on us to be able to differentiate between them and peacefully and skillfully educate the ignorant while ostracizing the willfully mean types.
Quote from: Shantel on January 26, 2012, 12:31:41 PM
Sometimes we can internalize something someone else has said in a way other than it was intended.
A good reason to not pay any mind to what I say ;)
Ativan
Quote from: Padma on January 21, 2012, 05:30:13 AM
Not to mention us transsexual andros (or is that andro transsexuals?) :). See? Diverse... ;D.
Got your back ( andro girl )
I have been reading a lot of stuff by Kate Bornstein and Julia Serano, and have come to the conclusion that the gender binary can be oppressive if we regard it as the only way to be. If it works as a way of looking at their own gender for someone that is great, but some of us find ourselves in a more fluid situation.
The main drawback to the binary is that it allows for rejection of being trans as an option too. The patriarchal bigots who have largely maintained their control of society have enough ammunition as it is. I would prefer to disarm them.
Karen.
I'm resurrecting this dormant thread because it looks like the place to discuss what to do about the support group in my area. It's supposed to be for anyone with gender identity issues, and they make a point at meetings of saying that everyone is welcome.
But the only people that actually come (other than me) are transitioning MtF's. They are very nice to me, but don't seem to want to accept that I'm non-binary. Several times at last week's meeting I heard things like "we all said we weren't going to transition" and "we were all where you were at one time" and other hints that lead me to believe that they're reasonably certain I will end up transitioning.
I won't. Yes, I'd like to become a woman. Emphasize the word "become". Unlike MtF's either pre- or post-transition, I am not already a woman, and transitioning won't make me one. I am neither completely male, nor completely female. Since no body will match how I identify, I'm planning to stick with the one I've got.
Do I try to explain this to them and hope they'll back off? Or do I decide this isn't the group for me?
My stance is unchanged. I have no right to tell others what to do, and won't tolerate them telling me how to be. Whatever floats your boat is cool. End of subject, and if anyone wants to really argue I will see them out back with a Stilson wrench in hand. >:(
Karen.
It seems an undo amount of peer pressure to me, as if they are looking to you to help validate their decisions. Their decisions don't need validation, of course, but that's not an unusual reaction when society tries so hard to invalidate our personal decisions.
I assume it's why I am rather welcome in the transsexual ftm forum as they assume that I am *really* ftm. Actually the thought has crossed my mind as well. Since some ftms might go thru a period of relating as androgynous or genderqueer, I suppose we can assume that there are a lot of people (relatively) who go this way.
I've been finding out as I explore this though that there are rather many female characteristics (if I understood this, which I don't) which I identity with.
As for the hostility, I haven't actually experienced it. I am guessing I will.
--Jay Jay
Yeah I admit I am waiting for that other shoe to drop in general... "if you don't want to transition then you're actually just a woman" or some variation thereof. And part of that comes from my own confusion, regardless. But I've seen enough bigotry toward bisexual people in from homosexuals to understand that, yes, marginalized people can get just as judgemental as everyone else.
The thing is that some of it, I think, comes from ignorance... people say how much "better" it must be to be bisexual, because one has more options... when really for me it means that no single partner will have everything I want. It's both, not either/or.
I'm still wrapping my own head around the non-binary thing... honestly mostly wrapping my head around what of what I'm experiencing is allowing myself to feel this way, and what will stay and what will fade. I guess I don't blame other people, especially people deeply invested in a binary identity, for not getting it. I just wish the default was always respect.
Quote from: dalebert on June 01, 2012, 09:55:03 AM
It seems an undo amount of peer pressure to me, as if they are looking to you to help validate their decisions. Their decisions don't need validation, of course, but that's not an unusual reaction when society tries so hard to invalidate our personal decisions.
That is exactly what they are doing. It is pretty common among other TG support groups in my experience. It isn't so much you need to follow the binary, you just need to do things the "right" way, or in other words, the way they did them. Doing so validates the choices they made in getting to where they are. Doing something different invalidates them and can cause them to become defensive or patronizing.
Personally, and I can't really comment validly on anyone else's experiences, the question I tend to ask on meeting someone is are they a person I would enjoy the company of? On the principle that nature loves diversity, if they are different to me, that just adds to my knowledge of people. If after a time they prove to be then I consider them a friend, and their gender presentation will be neither here or their. They might have problems with my situation, so it cuts both ways. It is no different to me having straight male friends, even though I am a lesbian.
If there is a connection I might then consider a relationship. I have no emotional or sexual interest in cismen, but anyone else is a possibility. At that point I would be more interested in their feelings towards me.
Karen.
Karen.
I used to hear about trans people bullying non-binary and androgynes and wouldn't believe it, but it happened to me very recently. Trans people do not understand us and I guess they are dealing with androgyn and non-binary phobia. I was threatened because of it. However welcoming this place is, it is still "Susan's Place, Transgender Resources".
I don't understand how people who do not fit into "social norms" can discriminate against another person who doesn't "fit". I would think that they would be able to relate to that person all the more. People just need to be true to themselves. No matter what that means. Sorry, I guess I am just a bit ignorant in this area.
The 'not tolerated' can often be quite intolerant. You see this in many, many minority groups, that they themselves have another minority group they dislike. I think it comes out of fear and insecurity. It's like the unpopular kids in the school playground not wanting to be seen with the more unpopular kids.
Makes sense. I still don't like it, but it makes sense. This would go well in the "Racism" thread that was started.
Quote from: justmeinoz on June 01, 2012, 09:05:29 AM
My stance is unchanged. I have no right to tell others what to do, and won't tolerate them telling me how to be. Whatever floats your boat is cool. End of subject, and if anyone wants to really argue I will see them out back with a Stilson wrench in hand. >:(
Karen.
You're going to hit them with a
cheese??
Oh! Sorry. "Stilson" not "Stilton."
Quote from: Metroland on June 02, 2012, 12:12:36 PM
I used to hear about trans people bullying non-binary and androgynes and wouldn't believe it, but it happened to me very recently. Trans people do not understand us and I guess they are dealing with androgyn and non-binary phobia. I was threatened because of it. However welcoming this place is, it is still "Susan's Place, Transgender Resources".
I feel very lucky to have found this safe and accepting site to explore my own androgeny. I would still be lost in the wilderness without it.
Androgynes do
transcend stereotypical gender norms.
It's been my experience that many people who are unconventional in one area of their lives (whether sexuality, gender, or whatever) are still very conventional otherwise. I've found, for example, that most of the trans women in my area are inclined towards presenting as very conventional heterosexual women, and are uncomfortable with me having a more androgynous, dykey presentation. But they are not unwelcoming, we just don't 'get' each other, and I long for trans and genderfluid friends who are more like me. I've found a lot of people here on Susan's that I can relate to much more easily (this is the advantage of having many thousands of users, more diversity!) as well as many people who don't 'get' me and do appear to have very conventional views on what makes 'a man or a woman'. So it goes.
I dont know anyone face to face that is trans, or gender fluid. I wish I did. Maybe someday.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:
A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.
I am really sorry you feel like that. Try and remember, not all non-binaries fit into the groups you described.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
It goes against everything I believe in too. I can understand why you think that though. When I first found out about genderfluid people, I was pretty excited because I thought there were more people like me out there. However, the more I looked around, the more I found people who kept talking about the friggin social roles. That's when I started freaking out about it and I haven't quite stopped freaking out yet.
It is
not a choice. I do not consider this confusion fun. I hope to get used to it and be able to enjoy it, but the fact still remains that I didn't choose this.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:
A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.
I can't answer for A as I don't exactly understand it. The other thing is that it is something you feel which I can't really address. Perhaps it's since I am bio-female-- I look not so female, does that negate you in some way. Or let's say for MAAB that they could still identify as partly male. Again as I say, I don't understand this.
As for B. I do NOT see this as a choice for ME. I did not wake up and decide one day to be androgyne. I *am* this way, just as you are (I don't know how you want to be addressed) a woman. I do NOT see this as some personality type, disorder of personality, or choice of any sort. The choice I have (and you as well) is in how I *present*. You could choose to present any no of ways from ultra feminine to somewhat boyish to lots of things in between. But what is between your ears, that's what's important.
BTW, Edge, I have an interest in the "friggin' gender roles, presentation, etc etc". I have a sort of intellectual bent (okay I'm a nerd :)) but it doesn't make this anything like a choice, just because I want to talk about these things.
--Jay Jay
Mutual respect. The key word being mutual.
In fairness, I don't think it's entirely one sided. Sometimes it seems as though there are views among some non-binary individuals that, as a group, people who view their gender as binary are relics of a bygone age, archaic in their thinking and limited in their perception, and that non-binary identification is heralded as a new dawning of humanity. It doesn't take a great deal of looking to see how that can rub people the wrong way just as much as the skeptical views of some binary identified people about the existence of any identification outside the binary model.
The need for some people to live as part of the binary is often as little understood by non-binary people as the reverse is for binary identified people.
Acceptance of others comes partly with acceptance of oneself, but also with the understanding that what makes some people one thing, and some another, is neither better, nor worse - neither less nor more valid - just different. And, if not seeking to understand, then at the very least respecting and embracing these differences free from prejudice and with an open mind - knowing that what makes your neighbour who they are contributes no more and no less to your own internal makeup than them eating a heavy meal would give you heartburn.
This can only be achieved when everyone shares one commonality - the understanding that all people have equal right to an identity, be that binary or non-binary.
How'd you get so smart, Seph? Book learnin' or 'sperience?
Anyway, I have an ongoing, raging, internal battle everyday as to which aspect of my psyche is going prevail.
I spent nearly 40 years trying to conform to a binary role, ultimately without success, and I believe, to my own detriment. I think I have a good understanding of the gender binary perspective, I just can't seem to fit comfortably in it.
I've certainly seen this hostility expressed online, however I haven't experienced it in my local community. People seem to be very accepting of who I am, whether or not they totally "get it".
I respect everyone's right to live as and express their gender in whatever ways that feel right for them. If I don't understand it, I listen and try to learn more about their reasons. My being non-binary in no way negates someone else who is binary.
Z
Maybe the reason there is all sorts of "friggin' discussions" (I really like this and will now include it in every post. :)) of gender roles, etc. is because we as androgynes don't have any clue what else gender could possibly be. I, for one, have no clue what it is to be male or female. I am not sure this is a *better* state. It could conceivably (and in my case) IS confusing. It's different.
Not everybody likes Aspies (people with Asperger's syndrome) either. I think they don't understand it either.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:
A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.
Trista, thanks for be so honest about your feelings. I think I understand better after reading what you said. Even though my experience is similar to Edge and Jay Jay that my non-binary nature is not a choice, I can understand how it would look that way, and how it would make you uncomfortable. Don't let us non-binaries run you out of town for expressing your feelings of discomfort :)
I'm still on the fence about going back to that support group. After hearing what you said, I realize that despite what they said, my presence does make them uncomfortable enough to make it hard for them to see me as a person rather than a reflection of themselves.
Quote from: aleon515 on June 03, 2012, 01:55:20 AM
Maybe the reason there is all sorts of "friggin' discussions" (I really like this and will now include it in every post. :)) of gender roles, etc. is because we as androgynes don't have any clue what else gender could possibly be. I, for one, have no clue what it is to be male or female. I am not sure this is a *better* state. It could conceivably (and in my case) IS confusing. It's different.
Not everybody likes Aspies (people with Asperger's syndrome) either. I think they don't understand it either.
--Jay Jay
That makes sense and I think ties in to something agfrommd noticed in another thread. I know I researched what gender is when I first realized I was male (at the time) to try and figure out what it is.
lol Sorry. I have a potty mouth. Censoring it can be fun though. Saying "darn you to heck" tends to make people laugh and diffuses situations. I stole that from Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light.
My best friend in high school has Aspergers. He was the sweetest guy ever. Ironically, the people who thought he was "slow" are losers (ex: drug addicts and working minimum wage). He is now an engineer.
Sorry for the bit of thread derailment.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 02, 2012, 01:57:22 PM
It's perfectly understandable from my perspective. I'm not hostile, but I am guilty of feeling uncomfortable around non-binaries because:
A) You guys make me feel significantly insecure about my credibility as a woman.
B) You seem to see gender as a personality choice determined by how masculine or feminine you are, which goes against everything I believe in.
But whatever, you guys do whatever you want.
This except, well, my credibility as a man.
I don't see gender as personality thing - I feel different everyday and I even used to express in androgynous fashion years ago, but I still have trouble seeing androgynous as an identity - I still identified as male while I was wearing those clothing. It's okay to feel more masculine and more feminine on certain days, but I will never understand androgyny as an identity per se. That's okay though, I guess, because I mean, as Trista said, people can express themselves however they want.
I'm all for mutual respect, but the key word there is mutual.
I am very much against the idea of gender being a personality choice or a choice at all. No one has the right to tell me (or anyone else) that I (or they) think that just because I can't fit into the binary (much as I would like to). No one has the right to tell me (or anyone else) that how I (or they) identify or what I feel isn't valid.
I can understand not knowing any better, as I have said. What I can't understand is continuing to act like one doesn't know any better after one has been corrected by several people.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
What I can gather from androgynes is that they treat their gender like a masculinity/femininity scale, and I just don't believe that's what gender is.
Certainly isn't that way for me. My way of approaching problems, my approach to my job, the way I reason about the world, are very male. When I do these things, I recognize the male in me. My way of forming friendships and being involved in friendships, my emotional life, how I relate and identify with other people are very female. When I am involved in these parts of my life, I recognize the female in me. I certainly couldn't place myself on any kind of a scale. I'm just me.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
@agfrommd: If you're asking me, I think you should just keep going lolz. Don't stop yourself just because it makes people feel uncomfortable.
Thank you for the advice. It's giving me courage to go back.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
My definition of gender is simply, how you feel and how you want to be treated. As a guy I have low self-esteem and several issues with my body. When puberty started I became depressed ....What I can gather from androgynes is that they treat their gender like a masculinity/femininity scale, and I just don't believe that's what gender is. What I meant by insecurity is that they made me feel like we were all just crazy, and I wouldn't mind so much but when dealing with the subject of hormones, my fertility is precious to me, and I don't want to limit it unless there's a pretty damn good reason.
Anyways, that's my rant, sorry if it's offensive somehow, as that's not my intention.
As for offending, it is hard to be very nuanced, given the type of feedback. I try not to be, but sometimes I am. It's sort of automatic.
Anyway, I don't know re: your definition of gender, since I don't think I have one. The only thing I know is that I didn't choose this. I didn't wake up one day, as I say.
I don't know that a scale is the best way to think about this. But I know that it is often a metaphor (or something). There are lots of problems with the "gender gumby thing" (might look this one up), but there end up to be 5-10 scales which to me works a bit better than one. But still I think it's only a metaphor, and perhaps a quite flawed one.
I don't think anyone's crazy (well unless they are actually crazy, not sure that I met anyone there on susan's). As for hormones, I don't know that I would do this but I definitely see the draw. Some people who do this feel more comfortable in their bodies, as dysphoria is not so uncommon here either. I would say 90% of androgynes would not take hormones. (Though I have no stats at hand.) My fertility (well when I had it that is) was not at ALL precious to me though. I never had more than a very fleeting passing interest in bearing children. I am asexual so it would be a moot point anyway.
BTW, there are mtfs and ftms who are careless users of hormones too, so I don't think this is all on the androgyne side in the slightest. (For instance, get off the net and so on.)
--Jay Jay
As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.
I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so. I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years). I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender. I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns. I could go on hormones. I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.
What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.
None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others. Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.
There is nothing about gender that could possibly be a "wrong" choice; it doesn't matter if someone is born a certain way or they choose it. And they most likely wouldn't choose it if they weren't naturally inclined toward it anyway. I wish society understood that.
I don't think of gender as a masculinity/femininity scale. That's one possible model for discussing gender, and is sometimes useful as a tool to communicate and understand -- because we all have a pretty good idea of what is male and what is female, so they are handy reference points. But some people will tell you truthfully they have no relationship to that scale.
What I most want people to understand about gender is that the map is not the territory. All these terms and models and so on should not be divisive.Really we are all just who we are.
Quote from: Ariel on June 02, 2012, 04:34:52 AM
The thing is that some of it, I think, comes from ignorance... people say how much "better" it must be to be bisexual, because one has more options... when really for me it means that no single partner will have everything I want. It's both, not either/or.
Oh dear. It's exactly that concern that makes me reluctant to consider dating a bisexual and the bisexuals I've met have repeatedly told me this is a fallacy. In other words, what they have been telling me is in fact, either/or rather than needing both. I'm sure it's different for everyone.
I guess if I ever go out with a bi person again, I'll have to discuss this with them at some point before I start to take the relationship too seriously and find out where they stand. This tends to trigger some insecurities in me, knowing that there are some things my partner might crave that I can never provide.
Quote from: Padma on June 02, 2012, 12:56:54 PM
It's like the unpopular kids in the school playground not wanting to be seen with the more unpopular kids.
Yikes! What a viscous cycle... but you're probably right.
A lot of this seems related to the topic.
http://www.thescavenger.net/glb/bisexuality-does-not-reinforce-the-gender-binary-39675-467.html (http://www.thescavenger.net/glb/bisexuality-does-not-reinforce-the-gender-binary-39675-467.html)
It is totally logical for nature to create every combination. I seem to have some level of gender fluidity with ability to move to guy, gal or Bird of Paradise.
I have not found trans community to be mean to me; however they do not like to get outed and they have their own confidence issues.
I am not a Drag Queen as I use very little makeup, do not like high heels, and do not like frilly clothes. I love bright clothes and nice jewelry. I hate wigs and I have a receding hairline. I appear to be "super gay" to everyone rather than "Queen".
I think my autism and lack of empathy makes me totally oblivious to what people are telling me.
I now present either MTF or FTM and have eliminated Gender Blender.
General society and trans community seem much happier. I am MTF for community and FTM for my cisgender family and neighborhood. In fact community is positive I finally transitioned and neighborhood is positive that I gave up. No way. I just swim upstream. In fact my name translates to live by a stream.
I seem to be happier as a gal but when I get frustrated or feel threatened I need to scream. I literally scream with a male voice box. It is so unladylike!
I dislike being called sir even presenting guy and ma'am is nice when presenting gal. I prefer my fem name in either mode. My paranoia makes me think I never pass. However community tells me I am fine and if I do not out myself I pass. It is cool. I think I do pass sometimes. At least many are nice to me.
Susan's site have always been rather nice and very informative.
First there is no High Council of Gender Norming that we all have to present ourselves to, to find out if we meet all of the characteristics to be one gender or the other. Stereo types of male and female are created by Hollywood, advertising wizards, and modelling agencies. This committee exists only in the fear centers of our brains. There is no magic closet we can appear out of as the perfect male or the perfect female. There are no gender police who will arrest us if we do not live within the gender norms for either male or female. In fact the gender norms don't even really exist except in the book of definitions put out in some ivory tower museum of divine psychology. Yet our fear of being different creates these mythical norming agencies in the nether reaches of our brain. Maleness and Femaleness exist on some kind of continuum and most people are somewhere in between. When we identify ourselves as one gender or another we are identifying with one end of the continuum or the other. But we are either in the middle of the continuum or on the male side or the female side. If we are transgender our physical body is on one end of the continuum and our gender identification is on the other. We want to live on the side of our gender identity. But as far as physical appearance is concerned unless we start early we are going to have problems blending our bodies to fit our gender identification. Some of us transgender women may look like we have male hormone problems, which we actually do have.
Some people will see our choices are at either one end or the other end of the continuum. While others may only identify themselves according to the continuum line and be totally oblivious to either the male end or the female end of the continuum and may well present themselves somewhere between male and female stereo types. Many transgender women want to forget that the male side of the continuum even exists even though the effects that male sex hormones have had on their bodies growing up will shine through unless they were able to start becoming female before the male hormones shaped their bodies. This is the same for male transgenders.
Everyone on the continuum whose bodies do not match with our gender identification are a part of the transgender community no matter of their point of view. No matter how much many of us transgender women wish to get lost in the feminine end of the continuum and for get that the any of our existence was ever on the male side, our bodies were born male and any one who really cares can discover this and bring us out of the closet.
We really need to be all inclusive if we ever want to have any acceptance of ourselves according to our gender identity because people will be more and more blind to our physical incongruence if feminine males or masculine females are accepted as normal.
Quote from: foosnark on June 04, 2012, 12:05:02 PM
As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.
I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so. I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years). I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender. I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns. I could go on hormones. I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.
What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.
None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others. Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.
Yes, your route, what you do with what's inside, that's up to you. What you feel, what is internal, is not a choice. I think it causes some confusion. I see that I have several routes as well. I am pretty sure I wouldn't do some of them. They range from doing nothing at all to partial transition including low dose hormones. People with the set of feelings I have have done all of them.
I doubt that anyone with similar feelings and so on, would do a full ftm transition. This requires an internal drive of how on-right their insides and outsides are that I don't have.
At least I think this is what this is in essence-- it's feeling that the outer and inner self don't match. There are things I can do to either ignore this or act on it to a greater or lesser extent. Whether you are binary or not, I think that essentially is what this is about.
IF being non-binary were a choice, then I could maybe brag about it (or feel lesser about it).
But it is the above question, imo.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: michelle on June 04, 2012, 11:00:49 PM
First there is no High Council of Gender Norming that we all have to present ourselves to, to find out if we meet all of the characteristics to be one gender or the other.
I love the way you put this Michelle.
While there is no High Council, I feel like there are a hundred million low councils who each have there own (highly overlapping) versions. I've always had a hard time fitting in socially and that's made me kind of inhibited about doing anything that makes me stand out as Different.
Quote from: agfrommd on June 05, 2012, 07:08:42 AM
I love the way you put this Michelle.
While there is no High Council, I feel like there are a hundred million low councils who each have there own (highly overlapping) versions. I've always had a hard time fitting in socially and that's made me kind of inhibited about doing anything that makes me stand out as Different.
Too funny. One hundred million low councils do perpetuate high council policing!
I do not fit in and I have tried to fit in but I do things that cause me not to fit in.
Even twin 7 year old girls down block when I walk dog in boy mode try to "teach" me how to be a man.
They concluded I must be grandma. I asked how old?
One said 84.
One identical twin is much nicer to me and big Irish Setter. We are all very different. Even identical twins can be very different.
Quote from: foosnark on June 04, 2012, 12:05:02 PM
As I see it, the force behind our gender identities is not something we choose, but there are often elements of choice in how we respond to it.
I could choose to be MtF, and I would not be wrong in saying it suited my nature to do so. I could choose to just be a geeky dude occasionally confused by an inner female voice, which i would explain to myself as some kind of spirit or anima, the proverbial "feminine side" (and in fact I did that for many years). I could just consider myself a somewhat feminine man and forget about nonbinary gender. I could publicly declare myself androgyne/genderqueer, change my name, fight policy battles, insist on neutral pronouns. I could go on hormones. I could make stronger efforts on my appearance to send a clear "something is different about my gender" message.
What I choose is to know myself and be true to myself, which includes not making a big issue of it and embracing the mystery.
None of those choices would be wrong either morally or personally, though some would fit me better than others. Going MtF for instnace would be a very rough ride and emotionally tear me apart, and I suspect I would be *more* insecure as a result and still just slightly off the best fit.
There is nothing about gender that could possibly be a "wrong" choice; it doesn't matter if someone is born a certain way or they choose it. And they most likely wouldn't choose it if they weren't naturally inclined toward it anyway. I wish society understood that.
I don't think of gender as a masculinity/femininity scale. That's one possible model for discussing gender, and is sometimes useful as a tool to communicate and understand -- because we all have a pretty good idea of what is male and what is female, so they are handy reference points. But some people will tell you truthfully they have no relationship to that scale.
What I most want people to understand about gender is that the map is not the territory. All these terms and models and so on should not be divisive.Really we are all just who we are.
Funny, I just about agree with ALL you state – the only difference was choosing MtF and going the whole 9 yards, balls to the wall, the whole enchilada --- SRS :)
Yes, it is a choice and better be figured out well. Very well!
I my case it was easier as my alternative was going to "check out of this here hotel".
I also have to say that when I'm called by my true/real gender she, her, ma'am and the like, it's like some light switch is turned on inside me.
It happens a lot, as I do pass OK so as not to create an issue with mis-gendering.
Having said that - life GOES on, and we get do downs being a gal - as being a guy... my best guess. I had a pretty good guy act going, but essentially was ALWAYS more female than I dared to acknowledge - until something snapped.
So, yes there are choices... in my case it was MtF. Period.
Sitting "on the fence" or "between chairs" of the binary world in my case, would have been the worst of choices, I feel.
One reason why it took so long till the "last nail" broke? Could well be.
Axélle
Witnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:
Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."
This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.
Quote from: dalebert on June 04, 2012, 12:49:53 PM
Oh dear. It's exactly that concern that makes me reluctant to consider dating a bisexual and the bisexuals I've met have repeatedly told me this is a fallacy. In other words, what they have been telling me is in fact, either/or rather than needing both. I'm sure it's different for everyone.
I guess if I ever go out with a bi person again, I'll have to discuss this with them at some point before I start to take the relationship too seriously and find out where they stand. This tends to trigger some insecurities in me, knowing that there are some things my partner might crave that I can never provide.
Well in my experience no one person can ever provide everything for anyone--this is why it's good to have friends and family and etc.! But please don't take me to be like all bisexual people--there are plenty who are either/or, and even those who might not be who choose to be monogamous. Just trust your partner, I suppose.
By the same token, non-binary people seem to be different in a lot of ways. I think most would say it isn't a choice... I know I wouldn't have chosen to feel the way I am... and the body dysphoria I've had off-and-on most of my life seems to have something to do with that. I talk about societal roles because that
does matter but I don't think suddenly reversing what it meant to be "male" or "female" would cause people to suddenly think they weren't male or female, or even cause mass body dysphoria. Gender seems to be a lot of things, a lot of it very much innate.
Quote from: Padma on June 05, 2012, 12:42:21 PM
Witnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:
Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."
This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.
Forgive me for stealing, but I just had to Facebook that!
Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.
I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support
Quote from: peky on June 05, 2012, 06:52:11 PM
Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.
I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support
Nicely stated, Peky
I = In
M = My
O = ??
H = Humble
O = Opinion
What is the middle "O"?
Quote from: Jamie D on June 05, 2012, 07:23:05 PM
Nicely stated, Peky
I = In
M = My
O = ??
H = Humble
O = Opinion
What is the middle "O"?
O stands for Own, LOL
QuoteWitnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:
Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."
This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.
Very interesting. I wonder why they felt this way.
Quote from: DrillQuip on June 05, 2012, 08:56:12 PM
Very interesting. I wonder why they felt this way.
I assumed it was because they weren't old enough to know about biological differences between men and women, but they'd already been conditioned since birth to tell the sociological differences - blue/pink, trousers/skirt, short hair/long hair and all that crap. So because A&E were naked, the kids didn't have the usual cues to help them.
Quote from: peky on June 05, 2012, 06:52:11 PM
Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.
I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support
Aww thank you, peky. :)
I agree except I don't like the continuum idea. That's probably just because I bristle at the idea of me being "in between."
Quote from: Edge on June 06, 2012, 05:32:29 AM
I agree except I don't like the continuum idea. That's probably just because I bristle at the idea of me being "in between."
I don't like the notion of a continuum either. It tempts me to try to put a number on how much of me is female and how much is male, but you really can't look at it that way. Some things defy quantitization. There are both male parts and female parts in me but they are so different I can't say there's more of this or less of that.
God and/or nature creates every combination. You are what you are. It is not bad or wrong or immoral to be a combination that is not accepted or typical to society. However society prefers uniformity and unless you have some special gift to offer to society then you may become an outcast.
No less do I not understand myself I get confused with all combinations. I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender? How can society understand trans community when we do not understand ourselves? What does no gender mean?
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 09:19:41 AM
I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender?
When you understand that whatever everyone else experiences as gender identity, you were born without that.
Quote from: agfrommd on June 06, 2012, 09:33:21 AM
When you understand that whatever everyone else experiences as gender identity, you were born without that.
Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said.
I understand none of them. Does that equate to gender fluid?
How does someone with no gender express themselves?
"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 09:19:41 AM
God and/or nature creates every combination. You are what you are. It is not bad or wrong or immoral to be a combination that is not accepted or typical to society. However society prefers uniformity and unless you have some special gift to offer to society then you may become an outcast.
No less do I not understand myself I get confused with all combinations. I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender? How can society understand trans community when we do not understand ourselves? What does no gender mean?
How do you describe an absence? Okay... imma do my best. Remember this is my own perception and does not represent other people's.
I have a physical sex. A combination of my genetics and biology. For me personally, I had a mismatch between the imprint on my brain and certain other parts of my body. We sometimes call the results of that dysphoria. It's unpleasant and as a result I've altered my flesh with hormones and surgery. I give primacy to my brain as the most important organ in my body, and consider myself female according to my sex.
Gender. I'm not sure I even know what that word is supposed to mean. When people talk about gender identity, usually they define it as a "deeply felt sense of yourself as male, female, androgyne, genderqueer, etc." I don't have any "deeply felt sense" of a gender. It's like when people talk about "souls." I just... can't relate. I'm flesh, nothing else. As far as I can tell, without my dysphoria I would have just been male.
And "no gender" sounds kind of odd to me. I'd rather say I have no gender identity. Everyone is gendered due to the way our world works at present, regardless of their desires.
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said.
I understand none of them. Does that equate to gender fluid?
No, genderfluid is something entirely different as far as I know.
QuoteHow does someone with no gender express themselves?
Well, I live as and look like a girl. All my gender/sex markers say female, since I just go with my sex regardless (though occasionally I'm tempted to leave it blank on forms out of irritation). Otherwise, I dunno. I'm just me.
I have short androgynous hair, I usually wear a mix of men's and women's clothes in fairly neutral styles and dark colours. I wear makeup rarely. I feel weird and uncomfortable if I go too masculine or too feminine in my presentation. I don't really know why. I guess it feels like buying in to a system I don't really understand or respect. Not so much the clothes themselves, but the context. And in some ways the way I present reduces the quantity of gendered crap I have to deal with, because it cues people that I'm a bit... off.
I really dislike when people gender behaviours and things. It makes me really uncomfortable and embarrassed for the person. I always feel like pointing out that there is extremely limited evidence for gendered anything. And that tendencies and correlation are not the same as certainties and causality. But mostly I keep my mouth shut.
I guess it comes down to: I don't really believe in gender identity. Not that I disbelieve in gender identity. I'm not atheist on the subject, I'm just agnostic. And I accept that other peoples' experiences are different from my own.
Quote from: Brooke777 on June 06, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan
That says better in ten words what I've been trying to say with many more.
Quote from: Brooke777 on June 06, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan
"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein
;)
Lol, this is all getting a bit too esoteric, even for me. I'm gonna go look at some horses or something.
Here's how I understand "no gender": I don't know that I DO understand that. However, I don't understand gender without context. Take away the roles, the interests, the stereotypes, the appearance, the presentation. I have no idea what it is.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: Sephirah on June 06, 2012, 11:44:42 AM
"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein
;)
Lol, this is all getting a bit too esoteric, even for me. I'm gonna go look at some horses or something.
Seph esoteric is such a sexy word. I can not even spell it. Life is an illusion but love and peace are real.
Susan's has always been cool site. I laugh, cry and learn and on occasion get silly...........
What does it mean to be trans?
Does it get in way of your plans?
Are you binary or fluid or non-gender?
Are you MTF or FTM or blender?
God does not care.
Because one day you'll get there!
................
BTW I believe an Angel might have no gender and be non-binary and would welcome all varieties of God's children.
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 01:58:41 PM
Seph esoteric is such a sexy word. I can not even spell it. Life is an illusion but love and peace are real.
Susan's has always been cool site. I laugh, cry and learn and on occasion get silly...........
What does it mean to be trans?
Does it get in way of your plans?
Are you binary or fluid or non-gender?
Are you MTF or FTM or blender?
God does not care.
Because one day you'll get there!
You're a poet and you know it! ;) ;D
(The horses were boring and I love poetry).
Quote from: aleon515 on June 06, 2012, 01:34:10 PM
Take away the roles, the interests, the stereotypes, the appearance, the presentation.
Then you take away life and humanity, and leave mere existence in its place. So maybe that's all gender is - living.
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 09:44:57 AM
Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said.
I understand none of them. Does that equate to gender fluid?
How does someone with no gender express themselves?
Maybe a movie analogy will help. Ever see "Wizard of Oz"? Glinda asks Dorothy "are you a good witch or a bad witch." Dorothy repeatedly tells her, "I'm not a witch at all." I remember the first time I saw this I was so frustrated I wanted to wrap Glinda's wand around her head. "Why won't you believe her when she says she's not a witch?"
Agender is like that. Asking an agender whether they're male or female is like asking whether Dorothy is a good or a bad witch. It makes no sense because they are neither. They have no gender at all. They're not male, they're not female, they're not anything. Maybe they have a gendered body, and maybe even some of the personality characteristics commonly believed attributable to gender. But they don't identify with any of it. All the rest is just them, and they can't figure out why they have to declare themselves a gender when they just don't feel it.
How do they express? In a way unrelated to gender. They wear what they feel like wearing, or maybe what they're expected to wear based on their body, but it doesn't express their gender identity because they don't have one.
Does this help?
Quote from: agfrommd on June 06, 2012, 06:23:26 PM
Maybe a movie analogy will help. Ever see "Wizard of Oz"? Glinda asks Dorothy "are you a good witch or a bad witch." Dorothy repeatedly tells her, "I'm not a witch at all." I remember the first time I saw this I was so frustrated I wanted to wrap Glinda's wand around her head. "Why won't you believe her when she says she's not a witch?"
Agender is like that. Asking an agender whether they're male or female is like asking whether Dorothy is a good or a bad witch. It makes no sense because they are neither. They have no gender at all. They're not male, they're not female, they're not anything. Maybe they have a gendered body, and maybe even some of the personality characteristics commonly believed attributable to gender. But they don't identify with any of it. All the rest is just them, and they can't figure out why they have to declare themselves a gender when they just don't feel it.
How do they express? In a way unrelated to gender. They wear what they feel like wearing, or maybe what they're expected to wear based on their body, but it doesn't express their gender identity because they don't have one.
Does this help?
Movie analogy is excellent. I understand that Dorothy is not a good or bad witch. Dorothy is not a witch.
If a gender blender wears whatever they want then how does that differ from agender wearing whatever they want? Could you look at a gender blender next to an agender and tell which is which?
Do agender or gender blender have a strong need to change how they look and modify their bodies? If they are agendere or gender blender do they change their homones?
Emerald probably could answer these questions.
Thanks!
Much easier questions.
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
If a gender blender wears whatever they want then how does that differ from agender wearing whatever they want? Could you look at a gender blender next to an agender and tell which is which?
You couldn't tell them apart, because you can't tell by looking at someone what gender they identify with. They are different because of how they identify inside, not how they look.
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
Do agender or gender blender have a strong need to change how they look and modify their bodies? If they are agendere or gender blender do they change their homones?
Hormone use and body presentation differ with each individual. Just as some androgynes feel the need to androgynize their appearance and others don't. I think it has to do with how much dysphoria they feel, how important appearences are for them, whether they think making changes will help, etc.
Quote from: agfrommd on June 06, 2012, 07:47:38 PM
Much easier questions.
You couldn't tell them apart, because you can't tell by looking at someone what gender they identify with. They are different because of how they identify inside, not how they look.
Hormone use and body presentation differ with each individual. Just as some androgynes feel the need to androgynize their appearance and others don't. I think it has to do with how much dysphoria they feel, how important appearences are for them, whether they think making changes will help, etc.
Thank you again. How would a gender blender describe their feelings? Does a gender blender have a body that looks like an hermaphrodite? What would good witch ask Dorothy and what would be Dorothy's response if Dorothy was a gender blender?
Quote from: wendy on June 06, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
If a gender blender wears whatever they want then how does that differ from agender wearing whatever they want? Could you look at a gender blender next to an agender and tell which is which?
Do agender or gender blender have a strong need to change how they look and modify their bodies? If they are agendere or gender blender do they change their homones?
Thanks!
In answer to question one, probably not. Gender presentation is not the same as gender. Besides I'm not sure that what you call yourself, in this case, means that much. We are trying to get a hold of something that defies getting ahold of. I don't know that one of identifying as GQ say and another identifying as agender are really all that different. Otoh, we could all be endlessly different. I doubt that helps much. LOL. :)
In answer to two, some people who are in the whole umbrella of gender varient or non-conforming may actually feel so strongly dysphoric that they would take hormones. I know of a couple people. Some of them start to do the whole transition ftm, say, and find out that they are not exactly ftm. OTOH, others who are in this umbrella do not have very strong (or any) dysphoria. I personally am between that.
--Jay Jay
The assumption that you can tell someone's gender by looking at them comes from the binary; it assumes everyone is playing with the same rules. If binary gender is like being on a checkerboard, some people are given that little car from Monopoly or a deck of cards. And people still want to know whether they are a red checker or a black checker.
Or maybe Flatland is a better metaphor. A visitor from a 3D world will look two-dimensional, and might even look like several 2D objects. They have no way to describe or explain themselves to someone who lives in 2D.
A scale that runs between M and F just doesn't describe everybody.
Quote from: foosnark on June 07, 2012, 10:09:43 AM
The assumption that you can tell someone's gender by looking at them comes from the binary; it assumes everyone is playing with the same rules. If binary gender is like being on a checkerboard, some people are given that little car from Monopoly or a deck of cards. And people still want to know whether they are a red checker or a black checker.
Or maybe Flatland is a better metaphor. A visitor from a 3D world will look two-dimensional, and might even look like several 2D objects. They have no way to describe or explain themselves to someone who lives in 2D.
A scale that runs between M and F just doesn't describe everybody.
Foosnark thankyou. Maybe you are a teacher? I look at things from 3D and most look at things from 2D.
.......................
O.K. back to thread. I have high functional autism (Asberger-like) and push left side of rainbow. It is my reality. There are far more non cisgender people in United States than society thinks. Maybe 1% of cis-males fit somewhere at end of rainbow and smaller percent of cis-females. I live in a big city and once trans community opens its doors to you, then you find how many of us exist. Most are stealth. Most of my closer friends are trans or in rainbow.
I have several TS mentors, GQ mentors and Bigender mentors. Each "sub"-group considers me part of their group.
Correct word is not hostile but Frustrated. I frustrate community!
Trans community does not understand its own diversity!
Let's take perspective from that of TS person. They absolutely hate being outed! At great personal sacrifice they have changed their gender. They do not hate gender variants; they hate being outed! TS person does not get upset if outed by me if I tried to pass; but few want to get outed just because I did not try to pass.
I do not think they are hostile; but TS do not want to get outed.
Life is easier for me if I present one gender or other. I seem to be totally fluid.
Now I present either gender because it makes my life easier.
Whew, I wasn't keeping up with this thread very well and missed a lot..
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
My definition of gender is simply, how you feel and how you want to be treated.
Hmm, I don't see anything there that's obviously different from how I see gender, except I couldn't define it so simply...
I think what happens is that we non-binaries tend to analyze things to the point where we realize we don't really fully understand what it means to "feel" a gender or be treated as a gender. I think the analyzing (maybe over-analyzing) is a result of all the thinking required to figure out a gender that we haven't been taught about growing up. I imagine a male or female who over-analyzed their gender that much would get just as confused.
Once we convince ourselves we don't know anything, we sort of get desperate for ways to define gender, and that's when we end up talking a lot about personality and gender roles and feminine and masculine traits and stuff.
Actually I shouldn't be over-generalizing so much; what I've said doesn't apply to all non-binaries... maybe it applies to a lot of us? It applies to me, anyway, I know that much.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 03, 2012, 01:11:34 PM
As a guy I have low self-esteem and several issues with my body.
Me too. But in my case, I'd feel the same way with a female body, because that wouldn't match either.
Quote from: BlueSloth on June 11, 2012, 05:35:40 AM
I think what happens is that we non-binaries tend to analyze things to the point where we realize we don't really fully understand what it means to "feel" a gender or be treated as a gender. I think the analyzing (maybe over-analyzing) is a result of all the thinking required to figure out a gender that we haven't been taught about growing up. I imagine a male or female who over-analyzed their gender that much would get just as confused.
Once we convince ourselves we don't know anything, we sort of get desperate for ways to define gender, and that's when we end up talking a lot about personality and gender roles and feminine and masculine traits and stuff.
Well, for me it wasn't so much a matter of swinging and debating and getting technical that made me realize my gender. My gender was something I always knew but I didn't realize it was an option culturally speaking until about a year ago. Over-thinking did over-complicate things to the point of confusion. But, this confusion was not about how I saw myself to be, but whether non-binary gender was actually something that a person could be after looking more into the community.
It's directed at anyone who continuously says that non-binary gender identities have anything to do with social roles or that it was our choice. That's very rude.
Seriously, how would you feel if someone accused you of choosing to be female to fit an illogical social fad? It doesn't feel very good does it? Well, it's the same for me. Luckily, I'm not ignorant enough to say something like that to someone because I know how much it sucks. It makes me feel like my gender dysphoria is being mocked and makes me a little insecure. I wouldn't wish that on someone else.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 19, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
Is that like some sort of mass-brainwashing, everyone's been trying to "correct" me? I'm trying to understand but it doesn't make much sense to me. It's harder to because everyone just gangs up on me and tells me I'm wrong.
RoadToTrista, like you said this is a touchy subject for many of us, and thus it is only natural that we get on the defensive. As for "telling you you're wrong?" I'm sorry, dear, but what did you think was going to happen if you question someones gender. I mean, they're probably going to strongly disagree with you. I'm sorry that you were feeling bullied.
But, do realize that it's not about conforming or not conforming to gender roles (Well at least for most of us.). After all, like you said, there are plenty of male and female gender-nonconformist. We are not non-binary gender because we see male and female as social constructions that are "too narrow" for us. Most of us do not feel we are "in between" male and female and most of us are not trying to balance male and female traits to be somewhere in the middle. (I believe that's what you were saying earlier, right?) It's about what feels natural. It's about not being sure which of the two boxes to check and getting a odd feeling that you were lying either way even before you knew why. It's about all the reasons you know you are female, but for us we know that we aren't strictly either.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 19, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
We don't all conform to gender roles, but we still identify with a gender.
It may be hard to relate to, but not all of us identify with a gender. Or we identify with a "third" gender (and ect.), even. But that's the way the world works. Some of us don't. But trying to prove that is like trying to prove people identify with gender at all. Some might not be convinced no matter what you tell them. But it's true. A lot of folks feel one way or the other and say so.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 19, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
Those trans people probably feel like their gender dysphoria is being mocked, and it probably makes them a little insecure
But, hell, even I feel like sometimes my gender dysphoria is being mocked and I'm non-binary! But usually it's because people ask me why can't you be happy being an androgynous man/woman? It's like someone asking you why couldn't you be happy being a feminine boy? It's obvious yet, at the same time, difficult to explain to someone who's inclined not to be convinced.
Further, I personally know a few FTM's that are drastically more gender non-conforming than me. They will wear dresses and make up and whatnot. Honestly, it will sometimes bug me when it's very extreme, and I'll feel like I won't be taken seriously because of the way they parade around. So, it's not like binary trans* are the only ones who feel as if their dysphoria is being mocked by other trans*. But. That's a personal problem. I have to learn not to be judgmental about it. It would be nice if others would pay me the same respect.
There's a lot of ambiguity in the world, it's a science fact.
I hope you didn't find any of this rude, I am trying to address you viewpoint without being rude. I'm not trying to "attack" your opinions, but nevertheless can't help but strongly disagree with them and be a little offended by them.
The thing is this is no more of a choice for me than any of transgender is for anyone else. I didn't wake up one morning and say "oh gosh this non-binary thing must be lots of fun, let's go try some of that".
>We don't all conform to gender roles, but we still identify with a gender.
As a matter of fact, I don't. I am totally confused by gender. Why are some people male and some female. What to they mean when they say they are male or female. I don't get it.
Yet another in a long long list of things I will never get. I recall being totally puzzled by this even as a kid. The more I know about it, the less sense it makes. I understand it DOES make sense to others, which is even more confusing.
I don't really have trouble getting along with with ftms or mtfs. Dysphoria is something we have in common (though I know not all androgynes have dysphoria). I certainly do. It is just the same, I don't see the concept is any different. In some way the inside doesn't match the outside. There would be no earthly reason to "mock" dysphoria in binary trans folks as I feel it too. I have had similar experiences, I can tell you that. I was talking to a transguy today how much I hate the mirror. Sounds the same to me. I am thinking my dysphoria might not be as severe (but this varies and some androgynes have severe dysphoria). The thing that I think is essentially different is how is "what do I look like inside?"
I am a little puzzled why someone who doesn't get this needs to. I mean I know there are things I will never understand, and I will never understand the feelign of a mtf very much at all. I can appreciate it for sure. But understand, like really get inside and walk around understand, it isn't going to happen.
I don't think that anyone said that being binary was an illogical social fad. I have said it could be a construct, but that is NOT at all the same as being an illogical/irrelevant fad. Look at money. It is totally a construct. There is nothing intrinsically real about it. However the consequences of not having enough can be life-threatening. Gender may or may not be a construct, but the consequences are life long and may even be life threatening. Nothing "silly" about it. We're all wrestling with it esp. here. (I'm not sure it IS a social construct, but if it were the consequences wouldn't be irrelevant in the slightest.)
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on June 20, 2012, 12:19:34 AM
I am a little puzzled why someone who doesn't get this needs to. I mean I know there are things I will never understand, and I will never understand the feelign of a mtf very much at all. I can appreciate it for sure. But understand, like really get inside and walk around understand, it isn't going to happen.
This is probably something that could be emphasised and where, perhaps, a lot of the issues arise. There are just some things that one will never understand on a fundamental level because they haven't experienced it firsthand. And no amount of explaining will lead to that innate understanding because it's essentially a difference of perception based on internal sensation and one's own experience.
The saying I like to use in cases such as this is: "I can explain it
to you, but I can't understand it
for you."
Perhaps, to move past this, and really accept people for who they are, and who they perceive themselves to be, it helps to remember that how one person feels and how they come to terms with their own identity bears no relation to how another feels and comes to terms with their identity. I sometimes wonder if the struggles with acceptance of
any gender identity come more from an insecurity of how that impacts
our own rather than the inherent qualities of that identity itself.
I don't think that feeling one's sense of self being questioned is a result of those we perceive as displaying the traits which lead us to question; rather an uncertainty which arises from our own tendency to construct who we are based a lot on who others are, and how we see things in others which we then apply to ourselves. And once that tendency is understood for what it is, maybe a lot of these issues will disappear. When an awareness is reached beyond the acceptance that someone could identify differently to ourselves, and into an understanding that our own identity is not
dependent upon the similarities and differences in order to exist in its own right... then we can begin to see people with fresh eyes, and start to appreciate the diversity in identity and the way that manifests in those around us.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 20, 2012, 01:06:04 AM
This is probably something that could be emphasised and where, perhaps, a lot of the issues arise. There are just some things that one will never understand on a fundamental level because they haven't experienced it firsthand. And no amount of explaining will lead to that innate understanding because it's essentially a difference of perception based on internal sensation and one's own experience.
The saying I like to use in cases such as this is: "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
Perhaps, to move past this, and really accept people for who they are, and who they perceive themselves to be, it helps to remember that how one person feels and how they come to terms with their own identity bears no relation to how another feels and comes to terms with their identity. I sometimes wonder if the struggles with acceptance of any gender identity come more from an insecurity of how that impacts our own rather than the inherent qualities of that identity itself.
I cut this but here here for the whole thing! Awesome post!
--Jay Jay
Personally I believe that nature loves diversity, so who am I to argue. Whatever works for you is cool with me.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 20, 2012, 01:06:04 AM
There are just some things that one will never understand on a fundamental level because they haven't experienced it firsthand. And no amount of explaining will lead to that innate understanding because it's essentially a difference of perception based on internal sensation and one's own experience.
Sephirah, that's true, but I really appreciate when someone makes an effort to understand what's happening in my experience.
It may not make me popular, but I'm going to say that I really like Trista's questions. They've made me think about myself and I've learned a lot by trying to answer them in my mind.
I am sorry, but I really could not resist this. When I here the word binary. I think of the binary number system. It has two digits. 1 and 0. 1 must be the guys. Look at the shape. And us girls must be the 0. I know this is not what you mean. I just feel a little puny this morning.
If you mean by binary both 1 and 0. Then you get 10 and 01. 10 is equivalent to 2 and of course 01 just means 1. If their is a some kind of a hidden message is I am just dense this morning. Or I haven't woken up yet.
Quote from: michelle on June 20, 2012, 08:38:04 AM
I am sorry, but I really could not resist this. When I here the word binary. I think of the binary number system. It has two digits. 1 and 0. 1 must be the guys. Look at the shape. And us girls must be the 0. I know this is not what you mean. I just feel a little puny this morning.
If you mean by binary both 1 and 0. Then you get 10 and 01. 10 is equivalent to 2 and of course 01 just means 1. If their is a some kind of a hidden message is I am just dense this morning. Or I haven't woken up yet.
You are correct. Are people digital or are they analog? Are they male or female or can they be a mixture or neither? Someone's reality is their reality.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 20, 2012, 01:06:04 AMI don't think that feeling one's sense of self being questioned is a result of those we perceive as displaying the traits which lead us to question; rather an uncertainty which arises from our own tendency to construct who we are based a lot on who others are, and how we see things in others which we then apply to ourselves. And once that tendency is understood for what it is, maybe a lot of these issues will disappear. When an awareness is reached beyond the acceptance that someone could identify differently to ourselves, and into an understanding that our own identity is not dependent upon the similarities and differences in order to exist in its own right... then we can begin to see people with fresh eyes, and start to appreciate the diversity in identity and the way that manifests in those around us.
One of the first and best pieces of advice I was given when I joined this forum, was something to the effect of:
Be careful that you don't become what you read.
It's very easy to agree and to also join in the disagreements of any group or even an individual.
There are those who adhere to 'popular' thinking within their own selected groups.
If that works for you to be defined by group thinking, then fine. It works for you, to help you find definition for yourself.
In this Androgyn section of the '*misguided* children' under the Transgender umbrella, the diversity can be overwhelming.
This doesn't present a problem, in fact it lends itself to an understanding that none of us can conform to a 'known'.
Transsexuals have a beginning and an end destination. There is a physical transition period that most will go through.
It's during this period that they may experience what it is to be Non-binary for awhile. To what degree, who knows.
But to experience something is different than being that something.
The same thing holds true for some Non-binaries who do go through some form of physical transformation.
These are both glimmers into another world for most, if not all of us, as Trans* People.
They are two separate things though. What defines this separation is the end results.
There are genders that don't follow the rules of binary. They don't have the same destination.
They don't come from the same beginnings.
The awareness of these possibilities is the beginnings of a real awareness of one's self as a gender.
Whatever that gender may be. There are no hardfast rules to gender. Not even for Cisgender People.
Questions about someones gender is legitimate. Questioning someones gender, isn't.
(I'm as guilty as the next, it's a relexive defense I suppose)
The game is played on a different field here, as it is elsewhere. It's about perspective. Nothing more.
It's losing your perspective, becoming what you read, that creates the hostility, the real point of this topic.
In becoming what you read, as opposed to using the parts that apply, you create a sameness of yourself with others.
The danger of hostility arise's when you believe a group is behind you in your thinking and statements.
I was mildly surprised that this topic was allowed. It was also surprisingly open and reasonable, to a point.
It has degraded somewhat to opposing perspectives. It became personal.
Sephirah has made this point in an eloquent manner.
The advice about being careful that you don't become what you read holds true.
If you do, you shouldn't expect that others have done the same, as you have.
It's a damn shame when that happens.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan on June 20, 2012, 10:35:44 AM
...These are both glimmers into another world for most, if not all of us, as Trans* People.
They are two separate things though. What defines this separation is the end results.
There are genders that don't follow the rules of binary. They don't have the same destination.
They don't come from the same beginnings.
The awareness of these possibilities is the beginnings of a real awareness of one's self as a gender.
Whatever that gender may be. There are no hardfast rules to gender. Not even for Cisgender People.
Questions about someones gender is legitimate. Questioning someones gender, isn't.
...
Ativan
Nice. I find forum an excellent source of education. I understand myself better by being open to various concepts. I also think many suffer from mild autism which skews their reality with respect to understanding their gender differences.
In fact if people can find some level of comfort that is a compromise they may also chose that.
Opposing positions are excellent way to learn and question. My reality is a commonality with various people on this forum.
As I understand myself better I have changed. It is scary to change. Making changes means you can make a mistake but not making changes seems to be a worse alternative for me.
I agree that as a bitch I have to find my own voice and my own personality and my own version of bitchiness. But every girl has to that. We all have to decide if we wish to go down a dark and scary path to self discovery or if we wish to become the bitch society has stereotyped for us. But we do either in the context of those we interconnect with. But most of us don't sit alone in Plato's cave looking out at the shadows developing our inner selves like hermits. Yes though our interactions with people here we do change how we feel and see ourselves, but we are sewing a patch work quilt into a beautiful design and opening our hearts to new possibilities.
If not I become a Stepford Wife of the 1950s because those were my childhood years. Well I am becoming overly dramatic but that was a satirical view of how us women were supposed to behave then. Besides most of us exist in a world outside of Susan's and we bring those experiences here. And while I love the other girls here and would very definitely miss them, my bitchy personality is being shaped by the other woman I live with and ride the bus with and chat with. My bitchy personality is being shaped by the little old men who flirt with me and the people who do not seem to notice, inspite of everything, that I have a lot of male characteristics, but even so I must be an old granny.
We come here for understanding and support and ideas. But reading Ann Landers does not turn you into her. I am becoming more of a female because of the acceptance I am finding from family and friends from my past. But as transgenders we have no common language of understanding. If any of you have had linguistics you know that we communicate through common understandings and definitions. I away that is also what we are doing here. We are developing a language and vocabulary that we can communicate with. Of course in doing this there will be debate, but that's life.
Oops, my Master's Degree is showing through, sorry. Please forgive my mistakes in word usage. As I get older I find myself thinking one word and typing another. It's either that or one of my fingers gets ahead in line and my words scramble themselves.
Very eloquently put, Sephirah and Ativan.
True, there is a lot of diversity, but I think that some of the hostility is caused by focusing on the differences and completely ignoring the similarities. Or maybe it's because some people find it difficult to understand that it's not either/or and, therefore, want to reject the possibility of any similarities. (This is not directed at anyone. Just something I've observed in real life and in various places on the 'net.)
Sorry, Ativan, I also don't understand what you mean by "don't become what you read." Is that a reference to how some psych students start thinking they have the disorders they've been studying? (Sorry I'm a curious nerd. :P)
Sure... I have seen people come to this section and because of the desire to identify, can and do have a similiar reaction to what they read. There are so many similarities to different terms and descriptions that they identify with what they may not necessarily be. Nothing wrong with that, it's everyones learning curve. The problem is, as it can with psyche students, that they don't progress any farther or worse yet, reinforce those assumptions.
It's as easy to do here as anywhere, but I was cautioned and I in turn caution. It can seem like you're on the fast track to understanding yourself, to finding the answers to questions you may not have even realized you had.
It's just the beginning, as things will change, you will change as you discover more about yourself. You will change into who you are from who you thought you were. A mistake in the beginning can slow up that process and make it stressful. That just makes it more difficult on yourself.
I don't think anyone, anywhere, on this forum wants that to happen. But it does, and it can cause friction.
You get more than a couple people who are doing this very thing to themselves together and the results can be disastrous.
Not only to themselves (we don't want this) but, also to others (we don't want this).
Life is a journey. Don't get stuck in a dead end alley.
Ativan
I guess on our Walk about to become who we really are, which I believe is never ending sometimes we see brick walls where there are none. And then again sometimes we don't see a brick wall where there is one. I am learning with myself some times I see may changes and many times I don't. That doesn't mean I am not changing. Sometimes a change becomes so much apart of me that I don't see how much I have changed. Progress can not always be measured nor is it always necessary to measure it. When we make changes at a certain time we need to stop changing and integrate the changes into our personalities and being. Then we change again. Sometimes we make what we think is a big change towards becoming our true selves like the first time we go out in heels. We get all psyched up for a big reaction and the world yawns at us. Then there are times that we make a small change like our shade of lipstick and all of the world notices we are wearing lipstick which we may have worn for months or years and we feel like a big brick has landed on us.
This happens to me all the time. I can go out with my girl friend wearing bright red lipstick and after walking around for hours she looks at me and exclaims your wearing make up. Dah! I have been for days.
All we can do is be ourselves and change happens for us when we are ready for it. When we are not ready we may put up all sorts of mental blocks to keep us for doing it.
As for any assumptions we make in life about ourselves we have to keep checking on them daily and be willing to change then when they become barriers to our moving on.
And yes transitioning for some of us may be like a yo yo. Especially for us woman because the more we change the more emotional we may become. Those of us who have defended our selves with reason all our lives may wake up some day and find we have become the dizzy emotional women we made fun of in our more rational days. Why because we had been using logic and reason not for the love of logic and reason, but as a means of defense and we had progressed to the point that we did not need them any more and became crazy, dizzy, and irrational woman. All women are not this way, but I have to realize that some day I might wake up and be more like Sarah Palin in personality and not politics then I ever though possible. I won't be young and pretty as she is, I will be old and grouchy.
Oh yeah. It makes sense that that would cause friction. I've never understood how people can do that though. It just seems so illogical.
Quote from: Ativan on June 20, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
Sure... I have seen people come to this section and because of the desire to identify, can and do have a similiar reaction to what they read. There are so many similarities to different terms and descriptions that they identify with what they may not necessarily be. Nothing wrong with that, it's everyones learning curve. The problem is, as it can with psyche students, that they don't progress any farther or worse yet, reinforce those assumptions.
It's as easy to do here as anywhere, but I was cautioned and I in turn caution. It can seem like you're on the fast track to understanding yourself, to finding the answers to questions you may not have even realized you had.
It's just the beginning, as things will change, you will change as you discover more about yourself. You will change into who you are from who you thought you were. A mistake in the beginning can slow up that process and make it stressful. That just makes it more difficult on yourself.
I don't think anyone, anywhere, on this forum wants that to happen. But it does, and it can cause friction.
You get more than a couple people who are doing this very thing to themselves together and the results can be disastrous.
Not only to themselves (we don't want this) but, also to others (we don't want this).
Life is a journey. Don't get stuck in a dead end alley.
Ativan
Ativan very good post. There is another axiom on this forum to this effect, "If you want to transition then you must be prepared to lose all."
Well I do not want to lose all. Still feel I could have found a better solution. My goodness I have tested many combinations. Now I am at one of those dead end alleys. I did not get to this alley by reading but by trying to reduce confusion of gender. I encourage no one to follow my route because I travel against flow. Maybe I will see something that someone else did not see because it is reviewed many times.
If I listen to community I pass if people do not know me; otherwise we have confusion.
I dislike feel of a wig on my head. If I do not wear wig then effects of T are clear.
I dislike modifying my voice. If I do not then effects of T are clear.
Is is nice to share your life with friends and modifications must me made for gender presentation or you may end up on an island.
Hey I got outed by a bi-gender friend yesterday. She was presenting female but talked in male voice and she was called sir. I talked in my trained voice and wore my pixie and was casually dressed. No one even looked or noticed me until my friend outed me. Turn around is fair play, Rather ironic. I think she is MTF.
Trans people that are hostile to me are hostile to other trans people too.
I think many trans people were out for my best interest and they are my friends.
Finally we have different definitions for same word and our own definitions are not static.
I wanted to give a negative point to author of this post but system has a piece of coding that prevented option.
Author is guilty of talking on phone about a close friend (Ms. 1) that outed both author and lady on phone (Ms. 2). Ms. 2 said to author, "Maybe Ms. 1 is scared and Ms. 1 compensates by being loud and out there."
Author is subborn and comments of Ms. 2 made a lot of sense!
....................
A rhetorical question: "Does society view a trans person that does not pass different from a trans person that passes but is outed?"
Does it make sense to judge each other in community when society judges all in community?
......................
My old cocker spaniel is both deaf and blind. She finds her way around by smell. Sixty seconds after a new person comes in house she will hobble downstairs and walk over and bark at new person then go lie down. If you make a meal for her and it is not to her liking, she will not eat meal and push bowl around kitchen. If she wants water she will jump in bathtub and bark until you turn on tub faucet and she takes her drink.
Why are we deaf and blind to each other when majority of us can hear and see?
Quote from: wendy on June 23, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
A rhetorical question: "Does society view a trans person that does not pass different from a trans person that passes but is outed?"
Does it make sense to judge each other in community when society judges all in community?
Don't actually agree that society judges trans people. From what I see there's far from a consensus on trans people.
I've seen:
* A great deal of people accept trans people in whatever form they come in, outed, non-passing, or proud (my personal favorite).
* A lot of people are ignorant. They see trans people as vain and self serving but when faced with evidence of the wrenching life choices and crushing emotions associated with transgender, find themselves empathetic.
* Some people are judgmental. They think transgender goes against God's natural order . Some of these can be brought around to the point of view that if God created everything in the universe, then transgender must come from God also.
* Some people are terrified of anything gender non-conforming. It forces them to confront feelings that they want to keep buried.
* Some people have a visceral hate of anything that genderbends. Most such people hate all kinds of other stuff too. Heaven help them.
Quote from: agfrommd on June 23, 2012, 12:29:53 PM
Don't actually agree that society judges trans people. From what I see there's far from a consensus on trans people.
I've seen:
* A great deal of people accept trans people in whatever form they come in, outed, non-passing, or proud (my personal favorite).
* A lot of people are ignorant. They see trans people as vain and self serving but when faced with evidence of the wrenching life choices and crushing emotions associated with transgender, find themselves empathetic.
* Some people are judgmental. They think transgender goes against God's natural order . Some of these can be brought around to the point of view that if God created everything in the universe, then transgender must come from God also.
* Some people are terrified of anything gender non-conforming. It forces them to confront feelings that they want to keep buried.
* Some people have a visceral hate of anything that genderbends. Most such people hate all kinds of other stuff too. Heaven help them.
Agfrommd I agree with almost everything in your post except definitions of words. I view society as "collection of generally accepted societal principles". No one has ever physically hit me. A couple of times people actually made a big deal of me being in their presence and put me in danger. Occasionally people say a comment loud enough to someone else so that I can hear. Frequently people are just curious which is no different from any human. Occasionally I have a cisgender person go out of their way to make me feel part of their lives.
I consider church that I attended for twelve years and taught for as many part of society. I only go boy mode to church and they know my gender issues. I walked in and removed my membership. Their only concern was if my contributions could be placed under my ex's name. I told them yes and that was my last contact with a church of 8000 members. I have not gone to church this year and a trans person asked me if I would like to go to church with her. When we are both available we will go together.
There are no hate crime laws in Georgia.
Georgia is fire at will state and you can win if employer fires you for reason of being trans, but you will not win if they fire you because you did not follow their policies 100% of time even though cis-genders did not follow their polices 100% of time.
I agree that most people are nice to me regardless of gender expression; however, some people in positions of authority have made my life difficult due to gender expression.
Metro area is much more friendly than rural small towns.
Only people that have a right to feel betrayed with my gender expression are my ex and children.
Probably be a good poll question.
Quote from: wendy on June 23, 2012, 01:49:11 PM
Georgia is fire at will state and you can win if employer fires you for reason of being trans, but you will not win if they fire you because you did not follow their policies 100% of time even though cis-genders did not follow their polices 100% of time.
That's the nasty reality of employment law. A bad boss can find an excuse to get rid of you if he doesn't like you. Either that or make life so miserable that you decide to leave on your own. Luckily most bosses want their areas to run smoothly and if it's a trans person (or gay person or black/jewish/female/kyrgyzstani person) that does their job well, bosses will be thrilled. But there are bigots in the world, and there's little scarier than a bigot with power.
Then there are jobs like mine, where to be effective I need to make a good impression on a lot of people and earn their respect. Presenting as anything but good old traditional male scares the stuffing out of me.
Quote from: wendy on June 23, 2012, 01:49:11 PM
Probably be a good poll question.
Go for it. I love polls.
I put a poll under Transgender section. I consider people that have a conflict with their birth gender to be transgender even though we have dozens of variations.
Gender identity is an individual experience as is ones transition (either mental or physical) to the person they want to be. I don't know why people can't accept when someone has a differing stance on the own identity? In the end we have all struggled and fought, arguing over it just seems tiring