Hostility towards non-binary in trans communities

[dalebert]

Witnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:

Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."

This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.

Forgive me for stealing, but I just had to Facebook that!

[peky]

Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.

I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support

[Jamie D]

Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.

I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support

Nicely stated, Peky

I = In
M = My
O = ??
H = Humble
O = Opinion

What is the middle "O"?

[peky]

Nicely stated, Peky

I = In
M = My
O = ??
H = Humble
O = Opinion

What is the middle "O"?

O stands for Own, LOL

[DrillQuip]

Witnessed by a psychotherapist acquaintance of mine a few years ago in a London art gallery:

Two small children standing in front of a painting of Adam & Eve.
The little boy says to the little girl "Which one's Adam and which one's Eve?"
The little girl replies "I don't know - they don't have their clothes on."

This also says it all. Eye/mind of the beholder.

Very interesting. I wonder why they felt this way.

[Padma]

Very interesting. I wonder why they felt this way.

I assumed it was because they weren't old enough to know about biological differences between men and women, but they'd already been conditioned since birth to tell the sociological differences - blue/pink, trousers/skirt, short hair/long hair and all that crap. So because A&E were naked, the kids didn't have the usual cues to help them.

[Edge]

Add to the narrative the fact that is so difficult to define the core or essence of what is "gender identity." We often confuse gender roles and/or sexual orientation with gender identity. To me, and IMOHO, gender identity is but the perception of being alone a gender continuum: from male to female with non binary in the middle, and non-gender individuals outside the continuum.

I think that living as a non-binary or non-gender individual is much more difficult that just transitioning, for that you have my respect and support

Aww thank you, peky.
I agree except I don't like the continuum idea. That's probably just because I bristle at the idea of me being "in between."

[suzifrommd]

I agree except I don't like the continuum idea. That's probably just because I bristle at the idea of me being "in between."

I don't like the notion of a continuum either. It tempts me to try to put a number on how much of me is female and how much is male, but you really can't look at it that way. Some things defy quantitization. There are both male parts and female parts in me but they are so different I can't say there's more of this or less of that.

[wendy]

God and/or nature creates every combination.  You are what you are.  It is not bad or wrong or immoral to be a combination that is not accepted or typical to society.  However society prefers uniformity and unless you have some special gift to offer to society then you may become an outcast.

No less do I not understand myself I get confused with all combinations.  I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender?  How can society understand trans community when we do not understand ourselves?  What does no gender mean?

[suzifrommd]

I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender? 

When you understand that whatever everyone else experiences as gender identity, you were born without that.

[wendy]

When you understand that whatever everyone else experiences as gender identity, you were born without that.

Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said. 

I understand none of them.  Does that equate to gender fluid?

How does someone with no gender express themselves?

[Brooke777]

"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan

[eli77]

God and/or nature creates every combination.  You are what you are.  It is not bad or wrong or immoral to be a combination that is not accepted or typical to society.  However society prefers uniformity and unless you have some special gift to offer to society then you may become an outcast.

No less do I not understand myself I get confused with all combinations.  I understand blending genders but what does it mean to have no gender?  How can society understand trans community when we do not understand ourselves?  What does no gender mean?

How do you describe an absence? Okay... imma do my best. Remember this is my own perception and does not represent other people's.

I have a physical sex. A combination of my genetics and biology. For me personally, I had a mismatch between the imprint on my brain and certain other parts of my body. We sometimes call the results of that dysphoria. It's unpleasant and as a result I've altered my flesh with hormones and surgery. I give primacy to my brain as the most important organ in my body, and consider myself female according to my sex.

Gender. I'm not sure I even know what that word is supposed to mean. When people talk about gender identity, usually they define it as a "deeply felt sense of yourself as male, female, androgyne, genderqueer, etc." I don't have any "deeply felt sense" of a gender. It's like when people talk about "souls." I just... can't relate. I'm flesh, nothing else. As far as I can tell, without my dysphoria I would have just been male.

And "no gender" sounds kind of odd to me. I'd rather say I have no gender identity. Everyone is gendered due to the way our world works at present, regardless of their desires.

Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said. 

I understand none of them.  Does that equate to gender fluid?

No, genderfluid is something entirely different as far as I know.

How does someone with no gender express themselves?

Well, I live as and look like a girl. All my gender/sex markers say female, since I just go with my sex regardless (though occasionally I'm tempted to leave it blank on forms out of irritation). Otherwise, I dunno. I'm just me.

I have short androgynous hair, I usually wear a mix of men's and women's clothes in fairly neutral styles and dark colours. I wear makeup rarely. I feel weird and uncomfortable if I go too masculine or too feminine in my presentation. I don't really know why. I guess it feels like buying in to a system I don't really understand or respect. Not so much the clothes themselves, but the context. And in some ways the way I present reduces the quantity of gendered crap I have to deal with, because it cues people that I'm a bit... off.

I really dislike when people gender behaviours and things. It makes me really uncomfortable and embarrassed for the person. I always feel like pointing out that there is extremely limited evidence for gendered anything. And that tendencies and correlation are not the same as certainties and causality. But mostly I keep my mouth shut.


I guess it comes down to: I don't really believe in gender identity. Not that I disbelieve in gender identity. I'm not atheist on the subject, I'm just agnostic. And I accept that other peoples' experiences are different from my own.

[foosnark]

"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan

That says better in ten words what I've been trying to say with many more.

[Sephirah]

"The identity of one changes with how one percieves reality"
Vithu Jeyaloganathan

"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein



Lol, this is all getting a bit too esoteric, even for me. I'm gonna go look at some horses or something.

[aleon515]

Here's how I understand "no gender": I don't know that I DO understand that. However, I don't understand gender without context. Take away the roles, the interests, the stereotypes, the appearance, the presentation. I have no idea what it is.

--Jay Jay

[wendy]

"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein



Lol, this is all getting a bit too esoteric, even for me. I'm gonna go look at some horses or something.

Seph esoteric is such a sexy word.  I can not even spell it.  Life is an illusion but love and peace are real.

Susan's has always been cool site.  I laugh, cry and learn and on occasion get silly...........

What does it mean to be trans?
Does it get in way of your plans?

Are you binary or fluid or non-gender?
Are you MTF or FTM or blender?

God does not care.
Because one day you'll get there!


................
BTW I believe an Angel might have no gender and be non-binary and would welcome all varieties of God's children.

[Sephirah]

Seph esoteric is such a sexy word.  I can not even spell it.  Life is an illusion but love and peace are real.

Susan's has always been cool site.  I laugh, cry and learn and on occasion get silly...........

What does it mean to be trans?
Does it get in way of your plans?

Are you binary or fluid or non-gender?
Are you MTF or FTM or blender?

God does not care.
Because one day you'll get there!

You're a poet and you know it!

(The horses were boring and I love poetry).

Take away the roles, the interests, the stereotypes, the appearance, the presentation.

Then you take away life and humanity, and leave mere existence in its place. So maybe that's all gender is - living.

[suzifrommd]

Usually a simple answer means someone really understands what they have said. 

I understand none of them.  Does that equate to gender fluid?

How does someone with no gender express themselves?

Maybe a movie analogy will help. Ever see "Wizard of Oz"? Glinda asks Dorothy "are you a good witch or a bad witch." Dorothy repeatedly tells her, "I'm not a witch at all." I remember the first time I saw this I was so frustrated I wanted to wrap Glinda's wand around her head. "Why won't you believe her when she says she's not a witch?"

Agender is like that. Asking an agender whether they're male or female is like asking whether Dorothy is a good or a bad witch. It makes no sense because they are neither. They have no gender at all. They're not male, they're not female, they're not anything. Maybe they have a gendered body, and maybe even some of the personality characteristics commonly believed attributable to gender. But they don't identify with any of it. All the rest is just them, and they can't figure out why they have to declare themselves a gender when they just don't feel it.

How do they express? In a way unrelated to gender. They wear what they feel like wearing, or maybe what they're expected to wear based on their body, but it doesn't express their gender identity because they don't have one.

Does this help?

[wendy]

Maybe a movie analogy will help. Ever see "Wizard of Oz"? Glinda asks Dorothy "are you a good witch or a bad witch." Dorothy repeatedly tells her, "I'm not a witch at all." I remember the first time I saw this I was so frustrated I wanted to wrap Glinda's wand around her head. "Why won't you believe her when she says she's not a witch?"

Agender is like that. Asking an agender whether they're male or female is like asking whether Dorothy is a good or a bad witch. It makes no sense because they are neither. They have no gender at all. They're not male, they're not female, they're not anything. Maybe they have a gendered body, and maybe even some of the personality characteristics commonly believed attributable to gender. But they don't identify with any of it. All the rest is just them, and they can't figure out why they have to declare themselves a gender when they just don't feel it.

How do they express? In a way unrelated to gender. They wear what they feel like wearing, or maybe what they're expected to wear based on their body, but it doesn't express their gender identity because they don't have one.

Does this help?

Movie analogy is excellent.  I understand that Dorothy is not a good or bad witch.  Dorothy is not a witch.

If a gender blender wears whatever they want then how does that differ from agender wearing whatever they want?  Could you look at a gender blender next to an agender and tell which is which?

Do agender or gender blender have a strong need to change how they look and modify their bodies?  If they are agendere or gender blender do they change their homones?

Emerald probably could answer these questions.

Thanks!