Hostility towards non-binary in trans communities

[saint]

I have recently been using another trans forum, and had a whole lot of negative responses to my being non-binary.  Such as being called a man, being told I should not express myself as I make life harder for 'real' trans people etc.  I wonder how widespread this is?  Susan's is such a cool place  I have not seen any of that stuff here, and although I don't post all that much here I do a lot of reading.  Has anyone else experienced this in other places online or in the real 3d world?

[AbraCadabra]

Hi Saint,

* Has anyone else experienced this in other places .... *

Yes honey, to be very honest - right in my own head, never mind the web!

Now, I could or should be ashamed of this, but I have to admit being of a binary disposition - and I noticed, more so (binary) since being post-op.
I'm at quite a loss with the Androgen disposition... Really.

Also you mention the dislike being called a 'man', - now I'd assume if you were called a 'woman' the same issue would have arisen, right?

It is plain tricky for binary folks to get their head around this disposition. Well, - what we can't feel we can't understand -, I'm the first to admit for myself too.

Some folks consider being BI-sexual being some sort of cop-out, so some would feel quite similar towards the Androgynous disposition. I'm quite sure.
It's bad enough for most cis-folk to get a grip on changing sex, to align with (brain) gender, now try some empathy, and see what comes up when they have to deal with the Andro position...
ONE FEELS LOST!
And feeling lost is not a very nice place to be in. So many react negatively, because it's impossible to actually understand, and what to think of, and call such a person! Shim? Sher? No idea.
I guess it would be anything but... and as such demands one VERY special placement in the scheme of things – and many will just not bother to give you that special placement.

This is just what's coming up for me, I do have some empathy with the pain involved being not accepted - but I think the above will explain why this would be so – when you experience it.

Thoughtful,
Axélle

[Padma]

People build their sense of security out of identity, and we're conditioned from birth with the binary paradigm.

As Axélle said, both gay and het people can be unsettled by bisexuals (and be cruel in consequence), and it's a similar phenomenon when it comes from cis and more "classically" trans people towards those of us who are not simply male or female in our gender identity. I don't expect to be understood; I do, however, expect respect. But as with the response of some gay people towards bisexuals, it's often the already threatened (in this case trans people) who feel more easily threatened by difference, while they're trying to get their own identity accepted.

The best thing you can do is to find people who are supportive, be supportive of them in turn, and forget the ones who are unable to do so.

[Pica Pica]

It's quite understandable considering the very different places a transsexual person and an andro,

[Padma]

It's quite understandable considering the very different places a transsexual person and an andro,

Not to mention us transsexual andros (or is that andro transsexuals?) . See? Diverse... .

[eli77]

Susan's is better than some, but it definitely happens here. Anything that doesn't fit perfectly along male/man/masculine/het and female/woman/feminine/het comes under attack periodically. And in a strange way a lot of transsexual folks are even more invested in the binary than cis folks since they had to fight so hard to claim their identity.

For me, people are people. I really am not fussed how you identify as long as you are pleasant. But given I'm female/______/androgynous/gay, I guess I'm on the outside of trans* communities anyway, despite being transsexual.

[Padma]

I've spent some months kind of fanning the flames of my "certainty" that being trans but androgyne put me on the outside or fringe of the trans community. But lately, I've been actually paying attention to what people are actually saying to me and how they are with me, and realised nearly all of this "outsider" vibe was invented in my own head.

Pretty much everyone who's going through whatever kind of transition they're going through (anyone who's journeying to arrive in their true selves, whether that's to do with gender or the physical side or whatever) is at times scared and isolated and feels like everyone else except them is doing it right and is part of the gang.

Yes, I've occasionally encountered binary-type prejudice on Susan's, but they're either trying to understand something outside of their experience, or they're not and aren't people I care to like me anyway. I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.

[Pica Pica]

I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.

Too true, people are, on the whole more interested in sorting themselves out and that is largely the case in the outside world also.

[Kinkly]

I have received a lot of nasty experiences IRL and in the non Androgyne parts of susan's and other on-line forums.
The Androgyne parts of susan's are great but outside of those you may be hit with strange comments.  not normally intended to be hurtful but sometimes they seen that way

[saint]

I am talking more deliberate attacks rather than odd comments that just happen to be offensive.  I see how the non-binary thing can be challenging, especially for binary transexuals.  I have experience plenty of biphobia from 'gay and lesbian' communities (although most of course are smart and lovely) and can definately see similarities here.  It is pretty sad though really cuz one would think that such people would develop some understanding through their own experiences.

Axelle-Michelle; well I can see where you are coming from; for me the gender binary and the gayorstraight thing seem kind of strange and confusing - but I am able to accept that other people see the world and themselves different to me, and accept their difference.  It don't seem that complicated really

[Kinkly]

most of the real world attacks on me have been intended to be hurtful, online are mostly not intended to be upsetting

[AbraCadabra]

[clipped]
Axelle-Michelle; well I can see where you are coming from; for me the gender binary and the gayorstraight thing seem kind of strange and confusing - but I am able to accept that other people see the world and themselves different to me, and accept their difference.  It don't seem that complicated really

Hi Dear,
come to think of it, I lived in the non-binary for a long time, knowing only partially of course what was going on.

It was an endless situation of everyone and their uncle to go and figure out if I was gay, not gay, straight, not straight, a weirdo, an attractive male, an unattractive male, etc. etc.

It is in my experience tiring, very tiring after trying to figure it even out for myself – and that for quite a long time...

Well, then came the 'big bang' and so now I'm BI as I might have been before... yet not Andro, that be last thing on my menue at present :-)

Life gets at least never boring, or rather seldom :-)

Axélle

[Shantel]

I have recently been using another trans forum, and had a whole lot of negative responses to my being non-binary.  Such as being called a man, being told I should not express myself as I make life harder for 'real' trans people etc.  I wonder how widespread this is?  Susan's is such a cool place  I have not seen any of that stuff here, and although I don't post all that much here I do a lot of reading.  Has anyone else experienced this in other places online or in the real 3d world?

Unfortunately human beings in all groups just love to lord it over others who they consider to not have quite arrived at their same level. It's childish and immature behavior, the best way to handle it is to just ignore it and refuse to include them any further in the conversation. It's reverse ostracism and it always works wonders to elicit either an attitude change or an early departure from the ongoing discussion. A good Native American friend of mine who holds a masters degree was getting the negative attitude treatment by a white fellow we both know. Frankly, it infuriated me and I related my feelings to my native friend, who in his own great wisdom told me not to worry about it because it was the white fellow's problem and not his. I had not considered this line of thought before on such matters. Eventually the white fellow had a complete reversal in his attitude toward my native friend. It was an enlightening experience for me.

[eli77]

I suspect that on the whole, there's a lot less prejudice out there than we're expecting.

Direct prejudice is somewhat rarer, but it happens periodically. Hell, it happened yesterday on Susan's. In fact I had the displeasure of reading the most offensive post I've ever seen on Susan's about same-sex attraction.

But as for just randomly offensive things that people say without realizing what they are doing? That happens constantly. And it becomes a case of either fighting every little tiny battle, or feeling constantly othered, or just walking away entirely. I've moved from the first category to the second, and eventually will proceed to the third, I'm sure. Want a list of the number of times I've seen "If you aren't ready to go outside in a skirt, you aren't ready to transition" or some permutation there of? Just a fairly innocuous example.

I'm glad you are feeling all loved and accepted these days, but I'm not.

[Padma]

I guess I'm on the one hand trying to counter my current tendency to expect trouble (I'm negotiating daily with PTSD at the moment), and on the other hand recognising that there's potential trouble out there, and being prepared to face it.

And the way I'm preparing myself to face it is to make damn sure I'm loved and accepted by me. Well, I have loving friends and supportive people around, but in the end, when I feel clear that who I am in terms of androgyny and bisexuality and femaleness does not require justification or apology, I don't need others to love and accept me on my behalf - and it also seems that when I'm confident in that way, people don't give me a bad time.

This is how I see it and experience it at the moment - subject to change, E&OE etc.

[Padma]

No worries, I in no way meant to invalidate your experience either xx.

[Shantel]

Sometimes we can internalize something someone else has said in a way other than it was intended. I have, and I'm sure everyone else has too at one time or another. Best bet is to become an exceptional listener, and when in public learn to read body language, because it often tells more than what is actually being said. I try to have a thicker skin when I'm around others, and not get my panties in a wad over their use of pronouns and other descriptive language that may denigrate my personage. Some people are just ignorant and lack understanding about the GLBTI community, others are willfully ignorant and mean spirited. It's incumbent on us to be able to differentiate between them and peacefully and skillfully educate the ignorant while ostracizing the willfully mean types.

[ativan]

Sometimes we can internalize something someone else has said in a way other than it was intended.

A good reason to not pay any mind to what I say 
Ativan

[EmmaM]

Not to mention us transsexual andros (or is that andro transsexuals?) . See? Diverse... .

Got your back ( andro girl )

[justmeinoz]

I have been reading a lot of stuff by Kate Bornstein and Julia Serano, and have come to the conclusion that the gender binary can be oppressive if we regard it as the only way to be.   If it works as a way of looking at their own gender for someone that is great, but some of us find ourselves in a more fluid situation.

The main drawback to the binary is that it allows for rejection of being trans as an option too.  The patriarchal bigots who have largely maintained their control of society have enough ammunition as it is.  I would prefer to disarm them.

Karen.