Why is it LGBT or GLBT why isn't it TLGB or TGLB? Is it because the T is riding on the coat tails of the LG political machine? I for one say TLGB when I happen to be talking about that subject and at times it really trips people up, it's almost as though I spoke in a foreign language.
I had been told that the L came first as a means to combat sexism/misogyny. That way, the L put women/females first.
I had been in the habit of just putting the letters in alphabetic order, with the B first and the T last. Originally, it was to put bisexuals first, as it had been my experience that bis were often disregarded by gays and straights alike. Now, I still keep things in alphabetic order, but it's so that I end up bracketing the group, as it were, since I'm bi and trans.
But, that's just my $0.02.
Not too sure on why the T is usually at the end but it does appear that we do get the short end of that stick.....at least in my area but isn't it actually LBGTQIA? If so then at least we aren't technically last.
Quote from: Gretchen on February 25, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
Why is it LGBT or GLBT why isn't it TLGB or TGLB? Is it because the T is riding on the coat tails of the LG political machine? I for one say TLGB when I happen to be talking about that subject and at times it really trips people up, it's almost as though I spoke in a foreign language.
Hopefully the LG community overall sees us as part of the "political machine", and not just as tag-alongs. There are individuals who think so, but I don't see that opinion as a major element.
That said, it doesn't matter to me one teensy leetle bit what order the letters are in. May I ask how "T" being in front affects your self-esteem or other things important to you?
Quote from: Malachite on February 25, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
Not too sure on why the T is usually at the end but it does appear that we do get the short end of that stick.....at least in my area but isn't it actually LBGTQIA? If so then at least we aren't technically last.
Someone has to be last, in any order of lettering.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 25, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
That said, it doesn't matter to me one teensy leetle bit what order the letters are in. May I ask how "T" being in front affects your self-esteem or other things important to you?
It doesn't, not one teensy leetle bit affect my self esteem. Is this post offencive to you? or are you reading into something that's not really there?
"someone has to be last" Not if you put the letters in a circle! Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on February 25, 2012, 07:54:35 PM
"someone has to be last" Not if you put the letters in a circle! Hugs, Devlyn
We should do that. :o
Quote from: Gretchen on February 25, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
Why is it LGBT or GLBT why isn't it TLGB or TGLB? Is it because the T is riding on the coat tails of the LG political machine? I for one say TLGB when I happen to be talking about that subject and at times it really trips people up, it's almost as though I spoke in a foreign language.
In my opinion, these kinds of terminology debates and semantics are exactly why so little positive political action gets done.
It is actually LGBTQQIA according to the main groups that associate and support people in this community
Quote from: lindsey26 on February 25, 2012, 08:13:51 PM
It is actually LGBTQQIA according to the main groups that associate and support people in this community
My point exactly...
Quote from: lindsey26 on February 25, 2012, 08:13:51 PM
It is actually LGBTQQIA according to the main groups that associate and support people in this community
I stand corrected. >:-)
Quote from: Gretchen on February 25, 2012, 07:51:38 PM
It doesn't, not one teensy leetle bit affect my self esteem. Is this post offencive to you? or are you reading into something that's not really there?
No, I'm not offended. Just trying to understand your thoughts on the issue.
Am I "reading into something"? Well, let me see...here's what you wrote:
QuoteWhy is it LGBT or GLBT why isn't it TLGB or TGLB? Is it because the T is riding on the coat tails of the LG political machine? I for one say TLGB when I happen to be talking about that subject and at times it really trips people up, it's almost as though I spoke in a foreign language.
First: Writing about which letter (meaning, which group) comes first, and suggesting that T should come first, indicates that you have a desire to have T be the primary focus of the LGBTQ-IDK-BTYVM alphabet.
Second: It appears that you think the T group is "riding on the coattails" of the LG machine, or that you are asking a rhetorical question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question). Do you think we're on coattails? Or, if rhetorical, for what purpose did you ask it?
Third: You mention you do say the T first, and that it trips people up, like you're speaking a foreign language. Why would you do this? (Speak in a way that confuses people)? It seems to me (imho) that deliberately speaking in a way that you know your audience won't understand is counter-productive to any political cause.
Again, I'm just curious.
Beth you are making this post way to over complicated.
Are we riding on the coat tails of the LG Community? This is not a rhetorical question Beth, I really am asking you your opinion and it's up to you whether or not you want to answer it.
Using the T first is not tool to confuse people, it is a statement. WE ARE HERE, I hope it makes people think. The repeal of DADT should include us too, along with a bunch of other issues that the LG community is heading.
So in closing for the night and in the words of the great man himself, Ricky Bobby: "If you aint first your last"
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 25, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
Hopefully the LG community overall sees us as part of the "political machine", and not just as tag-alongs.
What I have seen is the T is disposable if the LGB team thinks including us will be ANY problem.
I ran into this when a straight guy on our local city council made a motion to include sexual preference AND gender identity into the city's anti discrimination clause for city employees. The one gay man on the council said he would NOT support gender identity being included but was all for the sexual preference part. He had 3 others on the council that regularly follow his lead. I cornered him during the break and he said "Don't worry, people like you are gay so you would be protected" O.o "Uh then why are you opposed to gender ID being included exactly then?" "It would just make passing this more difficult" was his response. I talked to the other council members and none of them had any issue with both if Brian (the gay guy) supported it. I had to call in the local gay media on this, suddenly this idiot did a 180 and supported both. It passed. I know the federal edna stuff dumped the T part at one point, not sure if we are back in that or not.
QuoteAre we riding on the coat tails of the LG Community? This is not a rhetorical question Beth, I really am asking you your opinion and it's up to you whether or not you want to answer it.
Oh. In that case, I thought I answered this in my first post:
QuoteHopefully the LG community overall sees us as part of the "political machine", and not just as tag-alongs. There are individuals who think so, but I don't see that opinion as a major element.
That is, of course, referring to how the LG community sees us--if asking how we see ourselves, I'm not one to speak for the whole TG community.
How do I, as an individual, see our status? It is my opinion that there are more LGB people in the country than trans, and thus they have more money and influence. Yes, this means that we are "riding on their coattails." The LGB will, by definition, do the lion's share of the effort to secure civil rights. I am not opposed to the ordering of the letters "LGBTQ" because we really have nothing to gain by insisting the "T" go first in order and importance.
We must choose our battles.
Let's hear it for QUILTBAG!!! :)
I have never understood why trans issues have been glued to the Lgbt agenda. You are linking gender issues with issues of sexuality and they are not the same thing. In fact many in the trans community have suffered as much maltreatment from the gay community as they have from the rest of the world.
It should be T(LGB) because the T is the tie that binds.
Trans gender = crossing gender lines. It occurs with L, G and B. It is the one thing all have in common.
I don't think that's necessarily true. I know gay and lesbian folk who don't consider their sexual orientation to reflect at all on their sense of gender identity.
To my mind, LGBT got lumped together partly because of mutual experience of oppression, and partly because transsexuality has historically been sexualised as a concept (there are still plenty of people who assume all trans women want sex with men, for example), along with transvestitism.
We're all under the same umbrella even though we shouldn't be, but it's protecting us from the same spit.
Quote from: Padma on February 26, 2012, 03:40:19 AM
Let's hear it for QUILTBAG!!! :)
Now that makes more sense than any other point of view. :laugh:
Quote from: Gretchen on February 25, 2012, 06:51:37 PM
Why is it LGBT or GLBT why isn't it TLGB or TGLB? Is it because the T is riding on the coat tails of the LG political machine? I for one say TLGB when I happen to be talking about that subject and at times it really trips people up, it's almost as though I spoke in a foreign language.
i honestly do not think there is any political deviancy behind it.
I say LGBT and i'm trans (and i am not against myself). It's just the way I say it. I think you trip people up...not because of the political deviancy behind it, but because people are used to hearing/saying LGBT/GLBT. Honestly, if someone said to me verbally TLGB, it would take me a few moments to figure out what they are talking about...unless they use it in a context.
Quote from: Pippa on February 26, 2012, 05:00:11 AM
I have never understood why trans issues have been glued to the Lgbt agenda. You are linking gender issues with issues of sexuality and they are not the same thing. In fact many in the trans community have suffered as much maltreatment from the gay community as they have from the rest of the world.
Your last sentence answered your own issue of why T is in LGBT (well the second half anyways). Just because some Gays and Lesbians said something against Trans people doesn't mean they all do. So we shuoldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Hell, last time I checked, Gays and Lesbians are angels compared to what the Trans community do to other trans people. From my experiences the ratio of Trans treating trans like crap compared to L/G treating trans like crap is easily 100:1
Lesbians and Gays know it is not a sexuality issue. They do know we go through as much civil rights attacks as Lesbians and Gays do. So I like having us included.
Quote from: Annah on February 26, 2012, 07:23:15 AM
i honestly do not think there is any political deviancy behind it.
I don't think so either.
Quote from: Padma on February 26, 2012, 05:33:32 AM
We're all under the same umbrella even though we shouldn't be, but it's protecting us from the same spit.
^ This is made of win.
Quote from: Annah on February 26, 2012, 07:27:45 AM
Hell, last time I checked, Gays and Lesbians are angels compared to what the Trans community do to other trans people. From my experiences the ratio of Trans treating trans like crap compared to L/G treating trans like crap is easily 100:1
Lesbians and Gays know it is not a sexuality issue. They do know we go through as much civil rights attacks as Lesbians and Gays do. So I like having us included.
I seem to find good support from the trans persons I interact with face-to-face. Online, it's a different story. Overall, I find that the bulk of my support comes from cis persons, gay and straight alike.
There is no political deviancy in it. It's not some slight-of-hand chicanery , its' a bit of PC and a lot of history.
In the beginning, there was a gay movement. The birth of that movement really occured at two places, Stonewall in NYC and Comptons in SF that were really what we would call 'trans' places now, but then - of course - there was no such language. Hell. They didn't really even have 'gay' yet. But those first events known as gay liberation
Lesbian came in the 80s, and as correctly observed it was done in the LG as a very deliberate effort to avoid misogyny. That LG and not GL was in every formal naming using that nomenclature. Though 'gay and lesbian...' is still the overwhelming choice of spoken American English usage. So that the LG (and not GL) was kinda of a victory of style perhaps, but no one else used it. B was kind of added as an afterthought, and they really, really don't matter.
So in the 90s efforts to include (after a lengthy debate BTW) T and I were made. At the time I argued that their issues/cause/demands/whatever, were different and SHOULD NOT BE included, and were dropped. The T activists - most of whom had been a part of the gay scene, or organized around the gay power structure, or just using common facilities - and having a lot more in common then they had different, including enemies - worked hard to put the T in there for a bunch of reasons. Later stuff Q/QQetc. were added in sequence according to the latest self-labeling fad in a historical progression.