So I was reading the topic "All of you hate your female genitalia?" and I'm really confused now. Keep in mind reading this, I'm young so my brain hasn't developed fully yet so... Cut me some slack if I come across badly.
I thought being FTM (Female-TO-MALE) meant transitioning from female to male. I'm right so far, right? Yes. But yet I keep hearing about guys who don't want bottom surgery (I know the options aren't the best but they surely must be better than what you have now, if you're pre-op). Some don't even want Testosterone, I've even heard of people who doesn't want to do anything, not even TOP SURGERY! So basically they just want to be called HE and that's really it. What's the point of that? I don't get at all. Because I could care less about what people call me (I'm FTM btw). What I do care about though is fixing this horrible situation I'm in. And I don't see how you can forget that your body is wrong. And I just can't seem to find any other guy (or girl even) that feels this the way I do. Like it is so INTENSE and it's 24/7, I can barely function! Showering and that time of the month is just unbearable, I go into a deep depression EVERY SINGLE TIME either happens. The only way I could imagine it happening would like this, "oh right, I'd forgotten, my life is a living hell." Which is impossible, I'd have a bigger chance of forgetting I'm on fire.
So yeah, and I'll add a bonus question, is there anybody that actually has the same intense dysphoria? or knows anywhere I could find some people that do? it just feels like the cliche, "nobody understands me" or at least not how I feel.
I think it may just come down to how an individual's gender dysphoria shows itself. Granted, I never understood the FTM's who didn't even want to go on T, but who am I to judge? If it feels right to them, and it makes them feel like their true self, then more power to them. On the side note, I don't believe any female can "truly" transition to male. For that to be true, we would have to change our DNA. However, one can transition into MAN, which is a much broader and much more difficult word to define. After all, I know plenty of males who are NOT men. So with this thought process, it is completely possible to transition to a MAN without hormones or operations. Now - the public absolutely does not approve of this idea, and it would be much harder to "pass", but to each his own.
I personally don't care about bottom surgery. It's not that I like what I got, but (as long as it doesn't have a monthly) it doesn't drive me up a wall either. If I had the choice and a magic wand, then hell yea, I'm gonna get the right nether regions, but the surgeries are just not that worth it to me. My most important goals were to have the body type of a male and my breasts removed. I feel mostly relieved. The only time I feel stressed about it is when it comes to relationships. Not having a penis has caused real upset in my love life (and has attracted some very unwanted ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s). Perhaps not being a very sexual person makes me less apt to care about my sexual organs. I dunno. That's just me.
There are plenty of people out there with the same intense dysphoria. And just because some FTMs don't want as many procedures as another, it doesn't mean their dysphoria is any less intense. We all know how it feels to be the odd one out. So don't worry...there are plenty who understand. :)
I'm going to be brave and throw my two cents out though, mind you, this is probably just going to be a gaggle of my own personal opinions.
Anyway, ahem.
About your take on FtM. That's not how I interpret it. When I think of FtM, or MtF, I don't think of the transitioning aspect, I actually think about the identifying aspect. You don't have to have surgery and hormones in order to identify as the opposite gender (Or as a combination of the two, for that matter) I know some people who think of 'Transsexual' as being 'Born into the wrong body,' That's how I usually explain it when someone asks me about it, and that sentence says nothing about me 'fixing' my predicament of not belonging in my body.
Transition is a very personal thing.
A lot of FtM's don't get bottom surgery not only because the results suck, but because of the cost. That being said, I will probably never get bottom surgery. As much as I'd love to have a dick, the truth of the matter is that I hate where the results are now, and would rather have the genitalia that I have now as opposed to wasting thousands of dollars on a surgery that I might not be happy with. For me, stuffing my pants is enough to curb my dysphoria. Besides, I see my own junk as...man-junk, and that's all that matters.
As far as top surgery goes. Well, I'm sure that money is an issue for some people, and maybe some people are terrified of getting the surgery. Any surgery is risky, and expensive. I think that these are enough of a good reason to pull some FtMs away from getting surgery. Besides, some people are perfectly happy to bind, like me. Yes, I want to lop my chest off, but I understand that It's going to have to wait for a very long time, and a binder makes me happy enough for now.
Hormones are also very personal, and not everyone likes the idea of taking them. I'm sure that I'm not the only trans guy without insurance, so again, money is likely an issue. Unfortunately for myself, I very well may have to stop taking testosterone for a few months because of my lack of money. But I'm okay with that, because I've gotten pretty far with it and the changes are noticeable. I'd really prefer to not go off it, but if I have to, there's nothing I can do.
In short, FtMs come in all varying degrees. It's a spectrum within a spectrum. I think that the form of transition depends on the amount of dysphoria that one is going through. Just look at yourself Darknavy. You seem to have severe dysphoria and believe that it's necessary to go through every single step. But with me on the other hand, my dysphoria isn't quite that bad and I'm okay with taking or leaving some of those steps.
One more thing, when it comes to dysphoria, it doesn't bother me like it does you...anymore. But I know how you feel, before I came to terms with things that I could and couldn't do in transition, I had days where I struggled to get out of bed. If you ever need someone to talk to, I don't mind holding out an ear.
Quote from: darknavy on February 28, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
So I was reading the topic "All of you hate your female genitalia?" and I'm really confused now. Keep in mind reading this, I'm young so my brain hasn't developed fully yet so... Cut me some slack if I come across badly.
I thought being FTM (Female-TO-MALE) meant transitioning from female to male. I'm right so far, right? Yes. But yet I keep hearing about guys who don't want bottom surgery (I know the options aren't the best but they surely must be better than what you have now, if you're pre-op). Some don't even want Testosterone, I've even heard of people who doesn't want to do anything, not even TOP SURGERY! So basically they just want to be called HE and that's really it. What's the point of that? I don't get at all. Because I could care less about what people call me (I'm FTM btw). What I do care about though is fixing this horrible situation I'm in. And I don't see how you can forget that your body is wrong. And I just can't seem to find any other guy (or girl even) that feels this the way I do. Like it is so INTENSE and it's 24/7, I can barely function! Showering and that time of the month is just unbearable, I go into a deep depression EVERY SINGLE TIME either happens. The only way I could imagine it happening would like this, "oh right, I'd forgotten, my life is a living hell." Which is impossible, I'd have a bigger chance of forgetting I'm on fire.
So yeah, and I'll add a bonus question, is there anybody that actually has the same intense dysphoria? or knows anywhere I could find some people that do? it just feels like the cliche, "nobody understands me" or at least not how I feel.
its because. "being transexual is when ones sex/asigned gender as birth dosen't match ones gender identety" <--- basic
which mean you can be the the most femenine biological girl, who dress up in women clothes and dont have surgery or homones or anything, so on so on AS LONG you identify as a man.
its hard to explain this but I will try.
theres many people on the earth in all kinds of situations and way of looking at it being transexual.
You cant really change on how you where born, but you can change your way of living as well as your clothes, your name, your homones, or surgery.
its all a choice you make, not everyone is equal to make it as people are in diffrent situations,
and it dosent mean the choises who are made means same everywhere.
ex theres a place in indonesia (I think it there) where theres people called fafafini, where men choose to live as women, and they get fully accepted as that, without homones or surgery.
another country like iran you can also be transexual, however your only accepted to be that if you get surgery.
(please correct me if the names of the countrys I just mention, are wrong, I do tend to mix them up alittle)
I always think people should only change what is nessesarry, but what people find important is diffrent from person to person and place to place.
some people can only feel they are fully male or female is they do all the surgery and threatment to be male/female, and some dont feel they need them cause they feel they are men/woman no matter the fact of there body, or so.
---
I have homones, and top surgery but I dont want to do bottom surgery.
the reason is many
1 I do enjoy my genetalia for sex, and I dont think the doctors could make a penis I would be satified with,
I would like to have a penis and get totally jelous when I see a guys penis,but im just simply not satified with the result or think I will be, and because of that im not willing to sacrifice so much money, or trouble for just having a bigger one. and it dosent make me feel less man, It just make me feel diffrent than cis-gender men as I already am. as I said before in a earlyer theat I dont hate my female part, I just hate how it sign me as female in some ignorant peoples eyes. I know I can still live as a man with it, around the right people, but the world is cruel so theres always places where it will put me into a categori of something.
--
I hope it make sort of sense.
-----
"is there anybody that actually has the same intense dysphoria? or knows anywhere I could find some people that do? it just feels like the cliche, "nobody understands me" or at least not how I feel."
yeah, Its a very common felling for transgenders, I got that as well.
---
I add a question, you say your young, how old are you?
For myself, my own situation, and what I know, I personally do not want surgery.
Now, a lot of people have asked me "have you had top surgery?" or I've had people say things like "oh, you'll totally pass all the time once you get top surgery" and frankly, I don't weigh top surgery as important. I pretty much came to this decision between weighing the pros and the cons. Being that I have a large chest, I think it's likely that I'll have some level of sensation loss. I don't have money and insurance won't cover it. To me, $7,000-$10,000 is almost a year's worth of pay when I did have a job for a full year. I'm terrified of having surgery. I've put off having my wisdom teeth pulled because I'm so scared. I believe that with my body type I'll have some sort of dog earing and will need a revision which will cost more money. I don't like the idea of not being able to lift things, or being unable to do basic things for myself.
With all those things that I consider as being bad, and likely I don't think it's worth it...because I don't feel my "maximum potential happiness" is equal or greater than all the potential downsides. Plus, I dislike my large hips more than my chest.
From my own viewpoint, I am NOT FtM. I am NOT female. I have parts that are considered female by most people, and while I hate them, they will NEVER make me female. I am(and in a sense, always have been), male from the inside.
I want hormones and top surgery, and most definitely a hysterectomy. But bottom surgery is something I'm still thinking on. Having something closer to a cisgender male's penis may be technically "better" than what I have now, but it's not going to make me any more of a man than I already am. The procedures are risky, expensive, and could make my dysphoria worse than it already is should anything go wrong.
I hate my body. I hate it so much. But it's still my body, the only one I will ever have, and I need to do what I feel is best for it. Top surgery can go wrong, too, but the point of that is to be FLAT for me. I'm not saying bottom surgery is bad or always doomed to failure(I've seen some WONDERFUL results that I could be happy with if mine ever turned out that way), but right now I am not comfortable with compromising my health for something like that just yet.
Packing doesn't rid me of the dysphoria all the time, but I find it to be a less-risky way to feel better about the way my body is at present.
Despite my hate for my body, I have to keep going and do what I can to bring myself closer to feeling more at home in it. This doesn't make me any less of a man, it just means I'm doing what I can to survive and persevere in what is an incredibly tough situation to be in. My dysphoria is so intense, it hurts, but I have to keep going. If I lay around and feel sorry for myself, things will NEVER get done. I just made $1,300 towards top surgery and hormones by selling things I no longer needed. I had to push aside my social anxiety and managed to get a job where I can make money to support myself and my transition. I have to be productive, or all these things I need will never ever see the light of day. I'm scared, I'm depressed and angry and all that ->-bleeped-<-, but I have to carry on because no one else but me can make this a reality.
And regarding folks who don't want surgery or hormones -
Not all people feel the same about their bodies, really. Some guys just want to be called he, as well as be SEEN as male. Some don't feel surgery and hormones are necessary to bring them happiness or contentment in their bodies. They are still men in my eyes and deserve respect and support, too. Transition is not a one size fits all deal.
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
But not everyone has the same level of dysphoria. I personally am not bottom dysphoric at all. Granted, I'm excited about dick growth on T, but that's all I want. The only surgery I want is top because I don't like or need my chest.
I hate threads like these because this is what perpetuates the "not trans enough" BS floating around in the trans community. We all feel differently about our bodies and it doesn't make anyone less trans or anything. I don't identify as a cis male or "just a guy". I'm a transmale and embrace my trans experience because I did live as a female for 25 years. That's my personal experience and I respect everyone else's that are different from mine. We all should.....
My dysphoria is mostly socially triggered than triggered by my body alone. If I'm at home, in my room Aline I feel usually 100% fine with ny body.
Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
but we are not born cis-men.
If I had been born as a cis-man and I lost my penis Im sure I would freak out as well, manly because thats not something im use to, I would be used to have my penis there and then out of sudden I lost it and I wouldnt know what to do.
as trans I wasnt born with a penis, I got a small one T but still not like a cis-gendered one. So even thou I want a penis like that, I got more used to not having one, and then you have to think furture what your gonna do about it,
You need to understand that you are not alone in your feelings and it's ok to have such questions. I have a similar situation to what you describe and, having never been around genderqueer or other non-binary individuals, I also felt confused at first finding so many variations within the FTM identity. The important thing isn't resolving the "why's" and "how's" of what others feel comfortable with, but knowing that you have support here and that there are plenty of guys who feel the same level of dysphoria as you do and who want the same things.
Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
I agree, and I see where the original poster is coming from.
Only once Id started researching other ftms out there (this is after I began wanting to transition) did I find that so many people do not identify on the far end of the spectrum. I do find it quite astonishing too. To me, I am male, fully male. Im on T, had chest surgery and am having the phallo and hysto. I cant not. I completely refuse to acknowledge the "wrong parts" of me, (and dont understand why people would happily use them if they feel male....)
So many people have more of a fluid gender, between male and female, like feminine male etc. I think it is this reason partly why I dont identify as even ftm anymore. Im just male. The ftm is for me, something I dont want to associate with, its more a medical term.
I had that extreme dysphoria you did, darknavy, its improved greatly with T and top surgery, but part of the worst bit isnt sorted yet. And I cant forget it, I have to deal with it and I hate it.
I respect the fact others feel and identify differently.
But yeah, I have felt at times that there doesnt seem to be out there, many people who can attach this term "ftm", who do have such strong dysphoria/strong strictly male identity.
But we are all different, Im glad everyones not like me :p
I was like you at first thinknig the same thing about people not wanting bottom surgery or even any surgery or hormones at all but if there's one thing I learned from the trans community is to be open and to not shove opinions down people's throat. I find myself having to avoid words like "better", "all" "every" "should" etc and to use more open ended words like "could", "perhaps", "maybe" "in my personal experience/opinion" "might" "but that's just me" "for me at least" etc.
Not every cis person is the same so why should all trans people be the same in their wants and needs? Some transguys love what they have down there and live by the code "If it ain't broke don't fix it. " Others hate what they have and some are neutural. The same goes with the breasts. By saying guys need to have surgery or be on hormones is detrimental to younger or confused guys who need guidence. There's nothing wrong with redefining what it means to be man or woman.
Also be careful of telling guys that their body is wrong. I know plenty of guys who for whatever reasons feel that their body is right. This particular gentleman actually tells his reason on Youtube and it deals with his religion and spirituality and as a result refuses to physically transition.
http://youtu.be/XTOtUjtpHbw (http://youtu.be/XTOtUjtpHbw)
I admit I do have dysphoria because of the time of the month thing and I do believe my lower parts are wrong. I am currently saving for top surgery and then a hysto and I would love to get a metoidioplasty but because of cost and my obesity that I'm trying to work on I may never reach that goal. Does it make me less of a man? No.
To sum it up I'm glad to meet different Ftms who are different and similar to me.....now if I can just meet one who is about my weight lol.
You're not alone in your dysphoria, darknavy. And there are guys who experience intense dysphoria like what you describe without desire for bottom surgery. I had such intense dysphoria that I also had problems showering, running, etc. But mine was centered on what puberty did to my body, not so much on what I was born or not born with.
Also, I think that especially for guys in the US and other countries without NHS, the cost is so prohibitive that a lot of guys just make peace with what they've got. If a guy knows he'll probably never be able to afford it or the results will never be to his liking, what choice does he really have?
Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
I'm sorry guys, but I really see where he is coming from. I feel very similar about this and want to have a body as close as to the one I feel I should've been born with as possible. I'm really uncomfortable in "this" body unless I'm in some hypnagogic state. A lot of guys won't get bottom surgery because some of results are really poor right now and I understand that part of it (even though I want it), but as far not getting top surgery I don't understand why any male identified person would be proud of their fatty breast tissue, which is essentially produced by estrogenic effects on the body. If any bioguy was boastful about having man boobs, it would baffle me all the same. Nonetheless, I try my best to be accepting of people who are different to me, even though I don't think I will ever quite understand it.
I hate labels but perhaps this will help.. There is a difference between the terms 'transsexual' and 'transgender'. And in their true meaning, they are not interchangable - although most people think they are. I have grabbed this info from the FTM Australia website so go check that out if you want to read more www.ftmaustralia.org (http://www.ftmaustralia.org) and this is just my 0.02c...
Basically the term 'transgender' was coined by a cross dressing man, who wanted to live as a woman without hormones or surgery. She coined the term to refer to transgender people separately and distinctly from transsexual people. Transgender people generally recognise multiple genders or a gender spectrum, some will have one gender their whole life and others will shift along the continuum, some identify as having multiple genders all at once, others prefer a more fluid presentation, some avoid permanent changes, some are naturally androgenous and able to live with no medical interventions at all and some use medical assistance to relieve their discomfort through a range of different strategies. "Eschewing any strict male-femal dichotomy, transgendered people instead reach for a wide mixtures of male and female restructured anatomies and manifest masculine and feminine styles.." - Prof. Milton Diamond, 2000.
Transsexual men generally have an unchanging male core, never change gender, strongly feels his body didn't develop the way it should have, requires medical treatment to resolve his physical discomfort, seeks correction of his legal sex, fundamentally and irrevocably male, is not described by terms like FTM, transgender, transman etc. "Transsexualism is the unshakeable feeling that you belong to the other sex.. There's no way out for transsexuals than to adapt the body to the mind.." - Prof. Louis Gooren, 2000.
This is a really good table for those interested too http://www.ftmaustralia.org/transition-info/transgendertranssexualism-table (http://www.ftmaustralia.org/transition-info/transgendertranssexualism-table)
Again I hate labels. But if I had to pick one - I'm a man, with a transsexual past. FTM and 'transman' suited me to explain my situation to others when I was first coming out but I never felt they truly described me, I could say the same for 'lesbian' when I was living as one of them. I was assigned female at birth incorrectly and I will do anything in my power to correct that in this lifetime. I don't necessarily understand those who don't want surgery or hormones but I don't have to - that's the beauty of us being our own people and on our own journey. I would never judge anyone for I do not want to be judged myself. But I must admit anyone who doesn't feel exactly as I do - I put in the transgendered group. I'm a very down the line kind of guy and the definitions are there. But again - we are all living our own lives and answer to only ourselves.
So my answer to the OP how can one be transsexual if you don't want SRS - simple, you can't.
j.
i'v wondered about this myself but don't we believe its a state of mind already? its different for each person granted but i personally wavier about things like T. i mean top surgery is a no-brainer, if i could get rid of them tomorrow i would but i'm always concerned about the medical repercussions of T for example knowing full well that i may not be able to get necessary medical procedures because of it and also the long term effects. do i feel it would make me more complete? absolutely. could i live without it? i don't know, is it worth my life? is it worth seeing my little brother grow up? as for bottom surgery, when they can grow me a dick from my own DNA we will talk but at the end of the day my gender is in my head, what makes me physically different as a pre-o then non-o if thats what we are talking about. its all about intent really, or am i wrong in concluding that?
If I woke up tomorrow and had naturally grown a dick overnight (as in, more growth than what has happened on T), sure, I'd love that.
But, fairies aside, my only option would be to go through a course of several surgeries, sacrifice a so-called donor site (who says a penis is worth more than an arm? you sure a cis guy would sacrifice the appearance of his arm any time to reconstruct a penis? not so sure about it), cope with complications and fistula and hope to be able to pee standing up at some point. I would have to leave work for surgery and there are no guarantees regarding sexual sensation.
I feel slightly alerted when I hear guys who haven't gone on T and haven't had top surgery talk about how we should all want bottom surgery. First off, dysphoria usually changes significantly after top surgery and once T is working its way through the system. Secondly, top surgery gives you a fairly good idea of what bottom surgery might be like. One experiences the recovery time it takes, the numbness that will only go away after months for most, the way it feels to be not in perfect physical condition for a while. Multiply that experience by 10 to 20 (just a guess), and you're getting close to the effects of bottom surgery. Any romantic dream of waking up with a dick that works....is just that, a dream.
Then, there's the practical considerations. Some of us think "never change a running system", and that is a fair way to feel about it, isn't it? Bottom surgery changes a running system into a system that may in many cases be flawed ,,,,and some people just want to pee in peace.
I live in a country where bottom surgery is covered by insurance, so more people get it; not all of them can pee without difficulty after that; not all of them have good sexual sensation; nearly none of them only had the three surgeries (phalloplasty, pump and glans), there were usually follow-up surgeries required; many aren't happy with their results.
Then I'd also like to mention prosthetics. People who have lost a limb use them, people who never had that limb to begin with can use them as well.
On the other hand, there is no real analogy between cis men who have lost a penis and transguys, since we do have a clitoris developing into what I refer to as a micropenis on T. So a transguy on T could rather be compared to a guy with a micropenis. We don't expect men with micropenisses to get a "proper sized penis" via surgery. If he can accept his genitalia the way they are, we actually see that as a sign that they are at peace with themselves.
-- Why would it be wrong for an FTM to be at peace with himself? An FTM doesn't need to feel miserable with himself for the rest of his life to prove he is FTM. Instead, he needs to find his very own way to get to where he feels at peace with himself. The less medical measures need to be undertaken to get there, the better for him, in my opinion.
When I see a man who is fine with his body, despite certain physical features that would cause insecurities, dysphoria, depression etc. in other guys, I feel happy for him. How can he be FTM? He can be FTM because he knows he is, and because that's how he identifies.
As a guy who plans on getting top surgery as well as hormones in the near future I completely understand what you mean for that. But as a guy who does not plan on getting any bottom surgery I will explain. To me, its about the results. I have this image in my mind of what I would want resulted of a surgery and because as of now the surgeries can't give me that, I don't feel comfortable getting any bottom surgery. But in the future if things improved a lot, there would be no doubt in my mind that I would be one of the first to sign up. I personally can't deal with surgerys that don't give me what I have invisioned. Its bad, i know. But thats how I feel and I can't help but feel that way.
Quote from: emil on February 28, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
I feel slightly alerted when I hear guys who haven't gone on T and haven't had top surgery talk about how we should all want bottom surgery. First off, dysphoria usually changes significantly after top surgery and once T is working its way through the system. Secondly, top surgery gives you a fairly good idea of what bottom surgery might be like. One experiences the recovery time it takes, the numbness that will only go away after months for most, the way it feels to be not in perfect physical condition for a while. Multiply that experience by 10 to 20 (just a guess), and you're getting close to the effects of bottom surgery. Any romantic dream of waking up with a dick that works....is just that, a dream.
This. I concur.
Ooo this is a fun thread. Since I'm one of those odd balls I feel obligated to make a post.
One of the reasons why I don't like labels or physiological diagnosis when it comes to gender is because there exists in the world a lot of variance. This is truth. I live that truth every day, not just because I came into this world transsexual, but I also came into it with not having the "right" body. Beyond just being transsexual, my body doesn't conform 100% to male or 100% to female. I've had screwy hormones from the get-go among other things.
So to me, someone coming along and not understanding how there can be variation, is simply someone who hasn't realized the whole world is actually full of variation. They're wrapped up in text-book definitions and clear-cut labels.
Until science can grow test tube dicks and attach them to you without rejection you're never going to have the "cis male" body you "should have been born with". Actually, even then, you're never going to have the cis male body. An archeologist unearthing your bones thousands of years from now would see female bones and even your remains will be labeled female. Welcome to reality. Yes, there's some "treatments" that exist that will get you close in an outward physical appearance (to be able to live as your chosen gender in society) and for those that are willing to put their bodies and their health on the line in an attempt to "correct" it, that is entirely their choice.
Obviously, I'm one of the people who feel very strongly about my health. This body is the only one I got in this life and no matter what, I'm going to try to live my life as naturally and healthy as possible. I've already been down the drugs and alcohol route because I had hated my body so much I just wanted to cover up reality. Well, that didn't work for me any more than taking extra hormones did (which is also, technically, taking drugs to cover up the reality). So my reality was I had to find other, alternative ways to deal with the situation. I get that there's people out there who would rather be dead than live with their body as-is. I've already been there too, but realized I wanted to live ... "perfect body" or not. I didn't want to die and I didn't want to risk the health I had to obtain something that in my mind, would always have been a band-aid to a much larger issue. I would never have that "perfect body" so for me, it's taken years to get to a place where I'm comfortable in my own skin and that I can live my life and be mostly happy.
Since, like I said, I didn't start out life like many others do - as a healthy, easily-gendered baby, I came to the conclusion that maybe I really am "normal" just the way I am. Maybe for me, being part of both genders (and looking that part) was the most natural thing I could do. I should just "be me" as they say, and that me has female aspects and male aspects. My brain is definitely one of the male aspects. I know for many of us the brain-body difference is what causes most of our problems. We see ourselves one way, but society doesn't, and our bodies not matching what our minds "see" is another whole layer of issues. "Transition" was developed to help society see transsexuals "correctly" and for transsexuals to be more comfortable in their bodies. It's a treatment plan for a set series of symptoms.
Well, for me, I realized I didn't need transition. Yes, a lot of society is still going to deal with me as female even though I don't look 100% female and I certainly don't feel female. But my own personal perspective is that I am mostly male and that actually is the normal, natural me. Someone calling me "ma'am" at the grocery store doesn't actually change that.
I'm well into my 30s right now and to say that I had a rough time of it as a teenager and in my 20s would be a colossal understatement. I was unaware of anything like "transition" when I was younger. Being the hot-headed, easily depressed youth I was I can't say that I wouldn't have snapped at the chance to walk down that path. But I can say in hindsight that I'm really glad I didn't. That's my personal choice and no one but me has to understand it - even though I don't mind explaining why I made the decision and what impact it has on me and my life. I am a living example that there are many different choices that someone who has been dealt these kind of cards in life can have. And also that in my case, years passing gave me perspective and the mental tools to solve some of my problems that I never could get out of a syringe full of hormones. But that's just me. From what I see, that's not the "majority rule" around here.
People make their own choices for many different and personal reasons.
And just as a side note - I know two, male-born individuals who don't give two-sh*ts about their dicks. One says, and I quote, "The damn thing is an annoyance" and the other simply says, "Yeah, it's there, I piss out of it, that's about it." So don't lump every male into that boat that dicks are everything. Once again, there is much variation in the world and making assumptions and broad statements, even if it may be in the majority, still leaves that minority out there where the usual "rules" don't apply. Transsexuals themselves are a minority where the normal rules don't apply.
FTM is simply an additional term created to apply to males in female bodies and yes, the "T", as I understand it, stand for "to" implying there is a transitional path the individual is on from female TO male. This is why I don't personally call myself FTM. I can certainly relate to you all, which is why I come around here. I can call myself transsexual because by definition that does fit, but I don't even like that label either because of the psychological "disorder" implications. I don't feel I have a disorder. I just feel this is the normal, natural state for me. The only actual label so far that I don't mind is simply the descriptor, androgynous. That pretty much fits for me. So I'm an androgynous dude in a somewhat female body who's really into natural health. ;)
ETA
I forgot to mention I've also known many male-born guys who developed "moobs" and are just fine with them.
One thing to keep in mind also is that the transsexual classification was modeled after mtfs. Our bodies, surgeries, and needs aren't perfectly analogous to theirs.
Maybe the term 'transsexual' isn't perfectly accurate for someone who hasn't had genital surgery. But the BMV, SSA, and my workplace all classify me as male, I've altered all my documents, body contours and even body chemistry (top surgery and T). I've changed from a female life to a male one in the eyes of the world. I'd say that's pretty damned transsexual. :laugh:
Not that wikipedia is the be-all, end-all but I think the definition of transsexualism they have is pretty accurate:
"Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her assigned sex. Simply put, it defines a person whose assigned sex at birth conflicts with his or her psychological gender. A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex, or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification."
Quote from: Nygeel on February 28, 2012, 10:59:36 AM
I've had people say things like "oh, you'll totally pass all the time once you get top surgery"
Those people are being ridiculous, like someone can tell what your chest looks like, especially if you are wearing layers or something. That sounds like the people who tell others "Oh, you'll pass so well once you get on T"
Quote from: poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
I don't understand either. Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick. It's not something they'd be OK with or able to say "out of sight, out of mind" about. But somehow the people on here don't care, and that is astounding to me.
I, too, experience the same level of dysphoria. Can't go more than 5 minutes without thinking about it unless I'm sleeping, high or drunk. When I was pre-T I couldn't function at all -- could barely even get out of bed. My entire life revolves around trying to cope with this
Sorry you feel so dysphoric, but not everyone else does. Your experience =/= everyone else's Some of us are perfectly fine with the dicks we've got.
Quote from: Darrin on February 28, 2012, 01:15:56 PM
I hate threads like these because this is what perpetuates the "not trans enough" BS floating around in the trans community. We all feel differently about our bodies and it doesn't make anyone less trans or anything. I don't identify as a cis male or "just a guy". I'm a transmale and embrace my trans experience because I did live as a female for 25 years. That's my personal experience and I respect everyone else's that are different from mine. We all should.....
Same, not everyone ID's as binary or whatever. We are all different.
Quote from: emil on February 28, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
-- Why would it be wrong for an FTM to be at peace with himself? An FTM doesn't need to feel miserable with himself for the rest of his life to prove he is FTM. Instead, he needs to find his very own way to get to where he feels at peace with himself. The less medical measures need to be undertaken to get there, the better for him, in my opinion.
This so much.
For me, my intense need was to live as a woman, be treated as a woman and to BE a woman. I know the cisgender model that sex=gender is wrong or I wouldn't exist. I used to buy 100% into the cisgender model and wanted a sex change. Once I figured out that the cisgender model is totally wrong, all I needed to do was deal with being a woman. I've done that, have lived as a woman for several years now and while I am still making some "adjustments" to my body to be more feminine, the -need- to have my sex changed has all but disappeared.
But then again I don't define myself as a transsexual, mainly because of the question you just posed. Who is a "true transsexual" etc is just more buying into the whole broken cisgender model I don't buy into.
I do think it's interesting you have this strong desire to have a males body but say you don't care what people gender you as. Like if you had a penis and no breasts, you'd be fine still being seen and treated as a woman? Or do you think getting your body "fixed" will fix everything at once?
I can't (and wouldn't) speak for anyone else, but I don't honestly give a goddamn about my downstairs region. Maybe its because I'm with someone I know I'd rather die than be without, and he's fine with my bits, and maybe its just because the near-apocalyptic loathing I have for my chest outweighs nearly everything else, but I don't want bottom surgery. At all. Ever.
To me, its not the same at all. Because nobody is going to see my screwed up downstairs besides my boyfriend. Its not like my chest, where I can't go out without layers on, even during the disgustingly hot, humid summer. Its not something that literally interferes with my physical comfort and ability to breathe. Its something I piss out of, and something I, to be blunt, really enjoy my boyfriend being in. So, I'm fine with that.
Is it weird? Hell, yeah its weird. I know its weird. I know I'm a gigantic walking joke, and maybe I'm growing a bit as a person or just becoming cynical in a new and exciting way, but I don't care. Let me be a damn joke. Let me be a fake and a bull->-bleeped-<-ter, and whatever else anyone else thinks up. At this point, it barely registers.
Granted, I'm in a huge minority here. I'd rather cut off my hand then go through HRT, as one of the few tiny blessings I've got is an unusually deep voice. I don't want to look like a walking carpet. And hell, I wear makeup. I'm sure some people one here, though they've never said it, would love to sling "fake" at me, and I don't blame them. I'm not, never have been, and never will be Joe Average.
And I'm totally fine with that.
I have a close relative who is FtM, and has had top surgery, intends to have a hysto, but has no intention to have phalloplasty. Main reason being he believes the results available currently are problematical at best, and would rather be able to enjoy what he has. Even if it is not ideal.
It is a totally subjective situation, with no right or wrong involved.
Karen.
Quote from: Andy8715 on February 28, 2012, 11:41:11 PM
Sorry you feel so dysphoric, but not everyone else does. Your experience =/= everyone else's Some of us are perfectly fine with the dicks we've got.
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.
Quote from: Stephe on February 28, 2012, 11:54:45 PM
For me, my intense need was to live as a woman, be treated as a woman and to BE a woman. I know the cisgender model that sex=gender is wrong or I wouldn't exist. I used to buy 100% into the cisgender model and wanted a sex change. Once I figured out that the cisgender model is totally wrong, all I needed to do was deal with being a woman. I've done that, have lived as a woman for several years now and while I am still making some "adjustments" to my body to be more feminine, the -need- to have my sex changed has all but disappeared.
But then again I don't define myself as a transsexual, mainly because of the question you just posed. Who is a "true transsexual" etc is just more buying into the whole broken cisgender model I don't buy into.
I do think it's interesting you have this strong desire to have a males body but say you don't care what people gender you as. Like if you had a penis and no breasts, you'd be fine still being seen and treated as a woman? Or do you think getting your body "fixed" will fix everything at once?
it's pretty much the same story with me, except i'm not totally sure if i want to be non op or get it. i was fortunate enough to have an uncle who put away all this money for me because of this. i figure, if he's giving me all this money, maybe i really should go and do it, but i don't see having a vagina making my life significantly better. i'd be more comfortable having the female genitals for sex with the male i want to marry somewhere down the road, but i certainly don't buy into the "i am a real woman because i walk around naked in the women's locker room, and have vajayjay shaving parties with all my girlfriends." cisgender women do NOT care about their vagina that much. in fact, they use it for sex, and of course, the reason some of them say a "real woman" has a vagina is because they are blatantly ignorant about gender and only know enough to use that old standby phrase, that's all.
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.
I'm male so my body is that of a male. Sure my body doesn't look like an "average guy's" body but then what's average mean anyway.
I think folks that can work that out for themselves are really blessed... well, I was not.
If you're BURNING to have SRS so badly, it IS hard to figure out how some folks can sort that out for themselves... yet it is fine. IT IS JUST FINE also.
At the same time I also have to admit to a 'perception problem' as most any other binary person would, I'm sure. Would I ever be able to wrap my head around it? Maybe with some practice?
Right now, I'm sure short of just that... sad maybe, but true.
Nobody is perfect...
Michélle
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.
*facepalm*
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.
I think you might want to define "physically female" (and "physically male") as you see them. Not everyone is using the same definitions, Poptart. And just about any definitions you come up with are going to leave out a significant percentage of people.
for people who having a hard time understanding the non-binary umbrella point please watch this, its a interesting documentary about diffrent kinds of transgenders.
It dosen't exactly explain all dirrectly the topic of this threat,
however it dose,give a idea of how gender really is so it might be more easy to understand topic like these;
National Geographic, Part 1 Sex, Lies, And Gender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ScgvPvauKE#)
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on February 29, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that, while there's this intense effort to classify transsexual as separate from transgender, a lot of people who could be classified as transsexual are opting for the term transgender of their own accord, myself included (though I usually use the shorthand trans). I've seen others express the exact same reasoning for it as I feel, that there are a lot of extremely bigoted transsexuals saying very hurtful things about transgender people. Meanwhile, I've only seen people who are more open-minded and accepting of gender variance use the term transgender for themselves.
Please be aware that when I mention bigoted transsexual people, I am not talking about anyone on this site. I've seen different opinions about the gender binary on this forum, but I've never seen anything blatantly cruel said in regards to those who don't subscribe to it. I've mostly seen these opinions on article comments, blogs, and Facebook.
it hurts me pretty bad to see diffrent part of transgender people who arnt able to accept each other.
its like to suport lesbians but not gay men
or homosexuals who dont accept bisexuals, so on so.
I tend to hear the reason to be "that they will just make us look bad" I understand this just comming from frustration but I still fell it ignorant.
ex- mtf who wont accept ->-bleeped-<-s cause male ->-bleeped-<-s will make people belive the mtf is a ->-bleeped-<-, but its not really there fault that the world isnt that good educated, I personally also been mistaken for a lesbian or butch and I really hate it, but its not the lesbians fault or the butch ones.
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 02:20:48 AM
I know that's the case and I don't understand how or why. If you are male then why are you fine with being physically female? I understand that there's diversity, but this particular thing confuses me.
A forwarning: this is solely my personal opinion, and I do not apply this to anyone else. This is not meant to offend anyone.
Everyone is different, what works for one person doesn't work for others. I am confused by why people do/think certain things all the time, but I understand that I am not that person, and I can never understand fully how they feel. No matter what people say, no one can know what another person thinks and feels. To put it bluntly, you don't really need to know "how" or "why", and probably never will. People are complex creatures. But I understand being confused by others motivations. Am I "okay" with having a female body? No, not really. But its the only one I am going to get, so I want to do right by it and take care of it as I see fit. Being healthy is my number one priority, even if I have a body created by XX chromosomes.
I am one of those who is not dead set on bottom surgery. I want to get in shape, get on hormones, and get top surgery. That's as far as I have gotten. I feel way more dysphoria over my chest and my figure than I do anything below the belt. The only person who sees it is me and my husband and being that we are gay it never gets used anyway so I tend to forget that its there (excluding the visits from the captian). I would do anything to get rid of the Marilyn Monroe shape I have. I would take Anthony Hopkins' figure over mine any day.
Why don't I want bottom surgery? Well, the reasons are as follows: It costs a lot of money to go through surgery, and quite frankly, if I had that kind of money, I would use it to help my family who are struggling to make ends meet. It kills me to see the woman who is like my sister living off of substandard assistance while taking care of her nephew and father, and it kills me to know that there is no money for my brothers to go to college. Even if my family were set, my husband and I could certainly use the money for things that we need. Time is another huge factor. Maybe once I get through my masters and PhD programs and get settled into a teaching career/reach college tenure then I might have the time and desire. At the moment, I cannot afford to take time off. The time needed for recovery after top surgery is already going to be difficult, but I luckily have time to save up and get ready for that. But really, I cannot stand to sit around and do nothing. I am probably overly busy, but I like my life like that. Being productive takes away a huge amount of dysphoria I have, and I feel good about myself knowing that I am productive.
Healing is another huge factor for me. I heal much slower than the average person, and it comes from my past history of being disordered in my eating and bad luck in the genetics department. After I had my wisdom teeth removed, it took me almost four weeks before I was able to eat solid food comfortably and the holes were bleeding for about four days longer than they were supposed to. When I had two ingrown toenails removed it took them a couple weeks before the wounds closed, and even now my nails never have grown back right. Healing after top surgery is going to be painful and difficult enough, though luckily I am small chested and can get key-hole rather than the double, so according to my doctor, it will help with my healing process. Sitting still during that time is going to kill me. I go stir crazy. I hate/am terrified to see what I am like after the energy I will get from T. :laugh: I doubt I will ever sit down!
I wil be honest that another reason it is not a goal is because of my relationship. My husband is a gay man, and even though I am dickless he treats me like a man. I may be slightly goofy, but he doesn't mind. Despite my love of sweater vests, doofy oversized glasses, and my fanboy-dom over Benedict Cumberbatch, at the end of the day, I am his husband and he never blinks twice at my lack of dick or my chest or my curves. For a long time before I ever dared to utter "trans" even to myself, I was so focused on the idea that being a man meant having a penis. I punished myself with this thought for years, and it was the reason it took me so long to be honest with myself. I know now, thanks to him that I am a man. Yes, some men think that having a penis is the be-all end-all of being male, but I personally don't think so. Not anymore, at least. If someone tells me that they are a man, I will give him the same respect and treatment I would any man. If someone told me they were a woman, then I will treat her as such. If someone walked up to me and said they were third gender, two spirit, androgyne, non-gender or anything else (not familiar with all the catagories, we are a very diverse group!) then I will treat them as such and use their preferred pronouns or titles. Gentials are really a superficial thing to me now, it is the person at their core, no their body that define who they are.
Basically, everyone is different even within a small group like the trans community. I don't understand why someone would ever want to study military history over my chosen focus of idealogical history, but my lack of understanding doesn't make their area of study any less valid or make them any less of a historian. Just because I am gay and have no attraction to women doesn't mean that I think straight men are any less men. I could ask ten people in a row the exact same question and get ten different answers. Every human is odd, quirky and unique but that is the kind of world I like to live in. It makes life much more interesting.
Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.
I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
Quote from: Darrin on February 29, 2012, 09:20:10 AM
*facepalm*
What are you facepalming at?
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.
I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
What are you facepalming at?
I think people who do it for those reasons have the "trans and proud" way of thinking,
the way of not need to prove your a man as long you know yourself, or in some caises as I said, there might also be no need.
there are culture/and amount of people, who can accept you as your gender even without changing,
but in most places around the world its hard to get there and the people who dont fit in of what we expect of men and woman are sure having much more trouble than the ones who do.
Quote from: Natkat on February 29, 2012, 03:30:33 PM
I think people who do it for those reasons have the "trans and proud" way of thinking,
the way of not need to prove your a man as long you know yourself, or in some caises as I said, there might also be no need.
there are culture/and amount of people, who can accept you as your gender even without changing,
but in most places around the world its hard to get there and the people who dont fit in of what we expect of men and woman are sure having much more trouble than the ones who do.
so lets take homones exemple, its a choice whatever you want to take them or not, many do take homones for getting changes they want, but many also do it to be able to pass better and have less to deal with when it comes to explain to people to be a man all the time.
so theres 2 aspects in it, yourself and others around you. If you feel satified with yourself knowing your a man but dont feel you wanna change your body, then there can be a presure from sociaty for you to still do it.
some transfolk simple dont want to do it just to "please" there image, so its a "take me or leave me, im not gonna change to get your acceptense"
Even thought I dont think I could do it myself (cause its way to difficult where im from and I guess many other places to live like that)
I do understand people like that. I myself am not all traditional dressed as male, and people somethimes wonder why I dress so femenine if I really wanna be a boy? but the answer is simple, theres many way of being a man I want to be myself, in my own way, not to be like I nessesarry suposed to be, if I was to be, then I should just had "stayed female". LOL
Gender is between the ears not the legs.. thats why we transition and are enabled to do so.
also we knew we were the gender we believed even before we did one thing.. many can't afford to do that one thing and many are scared and many will take their time to decide..
so whats for you is for you now and may change later as it may change for others..
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
Yes, there are in fact people who are outside the "queer bubble" who are straight and cisgendered who understand why someone who identifies as a male would not get bottom surgery, would be ok with themselves without it, etc. You can't make an assumption like that about the entire non-queer community as a whole.
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
Call me naive, but I don't expect anyone to "understand" what's between my legs and what I decide to "put" there or not - because it's honestly none of their business at all.
When people perceive someone as male, they will draw conclusions regarding what's between their legs anyway - however they tend to have no chance to verify those conclusions (and for the most part, they don't care).
Just like any other person, I am not obliged to discuss my downstairs with anyone.
All I can say to someone "outside the queer bubble" who says "I can't understand why an FTM wouldn't want bottom surgery", is "I can't understand why you would care so much about what's in other people's pants". What makes people think that voyeurism is any less inappropriate when it comes to trans people anyways?
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
Yeah, I wasn't referring to people who've given up on it because of financial issues or the bad quality of the results or even the long healing time. I mean the people who, if those things weren't factors, still wouldn't get it. The explanation you gave was reasonable and I can understand that; thanks for clarifying, Ayden.
I never said that it makes someone less male. I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
I didn't think you were saying that it made anyone less male, I was just caught up in the discussion. :) It is interesting for me to hear about others opinions on things.
I don't really understand the confusion, to me it's quite simple. Transsexuals are people whos gender doesn't match what their sex is, transsexuals have different levels of dysphoria and therefore different needs transition wise.
For me I have no difficulty in understanding why some trans men don't want T, top surgery and hysto even though for me they absolutely had to happen, I need those things due to my dysphoria. I have no dysphoria with my genitals and don't require surgery there, I haven't ruled out meta but if I ever had meta it would be because I wanted it, not because I needed it.
And those outside the 'queer bubble' don't understand even if we do get bottom surgery. In fact, the whole genital surgery aspect is what squicks the general public out in the first place. Everybody can relate to wanting to change their appearance. Plenty of people get breast or facial procedures. Or even take HRT or steroids. It's the idea of scalpels in the genital area that really makes people uncomfortable. That's excluding the social aspects of course, but if we're just talking the physical part, that's what the rest of the world has a harder time wrapping their heads around.
Not that it's their business either way.
Quote from: darknavy on February 28, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
So I was reading the topic "All of you hate your female genitalia?" and I'm really confused now. Keep in mind reading this, I'm young so my brain hasn't developed fully yet so... Cut me some slack if I come across badly.
I thought being FTM (Female-TO-MALE) meant transitioning from female to male. I'm right so far, right? Yes. But yet I keep hearing about guys who don't want bottom surgery (I know the options aren't the best but they surely must be better than what you have now, if you're pre-op). Some don't even want Testosterone, I've even heard of people who doesn't want to do anything, not even TOP SURGERY! So basically they just want to be called HE and that's really it. What's the point of that? I don't get at all. Because I could care less about what people call me (I'm FTM btw). What I do care about though is fixing this horrible situation I'm in. And I don't see how you can forget that your body is wrong. And I just can't seem to find any other guy (or girl even) that feels this the way I do. Like it is so INTENSE and it's 24/7, I can barely function! Showering and that time of the month is just unbearable, I go into a deep depression EVERY SINGLE TIME either happens. The only way I could imagine it happening would like this, "oh right, I'd forgotten, my life is a living hell." Which is impossible, I'd have a bigger chance of forgetting I'm on fire.
So yeah, and I'll add a bonus question, is there anybody that actually has the same intense dysphoria? or knows anywhere I could find some people that do? it just feels like the cliche, "nobody understands me" or at least not how I feel.
I'm assuming you're young and haven't started physical transition, so I apologize if I'm wrong in thinking that. But the dysphoria you're dealing with now, it will get better. I felt the same way before T and about my chest. I couldn't focus on anything else except how much I hated my body and how uncomfortable it made me. I was similar to you, I didn't care as much about presenting as male (and actually held off on transition because I didn't want people to see me as a typical dude), but the dysphoria was too much to deal with. A lot has changed in 3 years though, I'm not dysphoric at all anymore, and I haven't had bottom surgery and most likely never will. I used to want it, but honestly since starting T, I've been cool with it for reasons I can't explain. Some people don't get how I could accept this part of my body, just like I don't personally understand how someone would not want top surgery. But it's just that everyone's different and deals with different levels of dysphoria about different parts of their body. Some people find a way to cope with it. For me, I think I just learned to accept the things that I can't change and focused on the ones that I could. But trust me, you're not alone, I know I felt the same way, and many other trans people do as well.
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PMWhat are you facepalming at?
I'm facepalming at this entire thread. The language being used is inaccurate. Someone assumed that unless you've had bottom surgery you're down stairs area is female. Many (my self included) people do not consider it female even BEFORE surgery. Secondly, no one has a right to assume the gender of another person based on what surgeries they've had or plan to have. Someone who is pre-T and pre-op or no HRT and non op can be male. No one can tell them otherwise because it's their body. Not anyone elses. I thought we've moved on from this? I get that people can get confused, but a few people have used language that is disrespectful and tactless. Remember, the trans* spectrum is huge and many people are under it. Let's not make assumptions about anyone's bodies or identities.
Quote from: poptart on February 29, 2012, 03:19:58 PM
I said that I don't understand it, and neither does the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website.
This is a really bad form to assume for your sake "the rest of the world outside of the queer bubble that makes up this website" agrees with you. It's basically saying -I'm going to speak for the billions of other people on the planet and use them to reinforce my position-. I know for a fact many of the people "outside of the queer bubble" do not agree with you and I would venture to guess more than a few think surgically altering our bodies is wrong, unnecessary and don't understand that. I've had several people, who were new to discussing TG issues, say they can't understand why someone would want to alter their bodies if they can live as their chosen gender without surgery.
I can only speak for myself when I say how I feel. Or possibly reflect on what a very small percentage of the worlds population I have talked with have said to me, realizing they don't represent "The rest of the world". Lets try not to over generalize and bring an army of sock puppets into the conversation.
I'd like to add my two cents.
Just because I don't want SRS right now and am not rushing towards it in a frenzy doesn't mean that I don't want it ever. Firstly, it's incredibly expensive. On that note, I'd rather pay for a college education and the things I need for said education right now. I'm thinking that T will be on the table if I have a surplus of money later. Another thing to consider is that despite the fact that I've been ruminating for the past four years, it doesn't mean I know a thing about what I want down the road. I worry that I might choose SRS and regret it. That's something that bothers me...what if I do regret it? The reason I think of this is because my mother commented on it, and worries that I'd be one of those people who regret the decision to transition. Granted, her constant cajoling doesn't help at all when it comes to determining what I want, because I know she'd rather have a cis-gendered daughter than a transgendered son. However, she has a point; there are transsexuals who regret their decisions, even if it's rare. How do I know that won't happen, in my case? I'd rather be sure than sorry. Another thing is that I'm just mildly discontent, and can go through my day to day life without many problems.
I suppose the short-hand version of what I'm trying to say is that when it comes to transitioning, I have multiple conflicting interests.
I just play the hand I'm dealt. I can't afford bottom surgery. Top surgery is an absolute necessity for me but I don't know how or when I can pull it off. Even if I had the money, who takes care of my kid while I recover? Who takes care of me? Last time I had surgery the hospital refused to release me because I couldn't prove I had a ride home. When my (mentally ill) daughter got angry she kicked the incisions. I wasn't able to rest and my recovery was not quick.
I'm still paying off old medical bills, and I likely will be for years. I live how I live, and I find that it's usually other people deciding they need to categorize and label it.
Also, this site isn't a bubble. Go to most colleges or any major city, and you'll see what you see here.
Funny thing about that whole "queer bubble" that was mentioned?
Its not like there's some magical exclusion of dumbass, bigoted idiocy even in said mythical bubble. How many people have been harassed for being too femme/tomboy? I can't speak for MTFs, but there are plenty of transmen who outright hate guys who are anything other than super-macho gym fanatics. Hell, there's probably entire sites dedicated to it.
If you haven't encountered this yourself, then I could see where you might think everything really is all sprinkles and sunshine in queer communities, but its absolutely not. Hate is universal, often unrelated to who you're sleeping with and what parts you have/don't have. Anyone can be a jackass.
I've seen all sorts of insensitive and bigoted and ignorant behavior inside the queer bubble. I've seen bigotry against a trans guy (not me) who came to the gay men's group and wasn't "passing." They called him "she." I'm quite certain that some of the men in my gay group would shun me if they knew my history. Some wouldn't care what I've done to my body. Some wouldn't care if I had equipment that rivals theirs. No matter what, they would see me as a liar or an impostor or both.
Inside the trans community, I've been attacked for not telling every person I meet that I am trans, for not being openly trans (without telling absolutely everyone), for not being an activist, for missing trans events, for being gay and not straight, for being gay rather than pansexual or bisexual, for having issues with women, for spending most of my time with cisgender men, for not wanting to consider sexual relationships with trans men, for wanting sexual relationships with guys who have typical penises, for being interested in bottom surgery, for not being interested in bottom surgery, for not being in touch with my "female history/side," and for feeling solidly male rather than identifying as trans or non-binary or genderqueer.
I think you'll find more than one contradiction in that mess. Why people can't just let me be who I am, I'll never know. I have a hard enough time with self-acceptance without everybody else's judgments piled on top of that.
At first, I didn't want bottom surgery. I came out back in the days when Lou Sullivan's FTM book was a key resource, and I saw the pictures. I heard the stories of failed surgeries, deformed results, infections, fissures, and multiple revisions. And I knew that my partner wouldn't be cool with bottom surgery.
I'm out of that relationship now. I still don't know whether I want bottom surgery. I don't heal well, I'm prone to infection, and, quite frankly, I don't have the cash. If I did have the money, I wouldn't spend it on surgery. Not in this economy.
I've had my big soulmate relationship and don't expect another, so I'm not expecting anyone else to see my downstairs bits. I pack, and it helps. Do I want a typical penis, or something closer to a typical penis? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean I want one of the current surgical options, and it doesn't mean I can afford it. Do I have dysphoria about that part of my body? Absolutely. Every damned day, and I wish I didn't.
And I have a couple of close trans friends who say they do not want bottom surgery, ever. Maybe they'll change their minds. Maybe not. What the f*** do I care? What business is it of mine? They are my friends, they are boys, they live as men (as I do), and they have some peace with the lower part of their bodies. That's a damn sight better than where I am. The way I fight and struggle and hold onto things, I may never be at peace. But my ambivalence about bottom surgery has nothing to do with you, and it's really none of your business.
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.
Quote from: Realdimensionaltggirlhere on September 03, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.
This is why I think this tread is stupid.
1. Why do you always use so many labels? Sometimes I feel I need to use labels or else people don't understand. I can't just say I'm male without people wanting to use labels on me.
2. transsexual is when you have body dysphobia. It's so simple. Body dysphobia may make you want to take T and maybe have surgeries. It's doesn't mean that they have to do it. I fir example don't want bottom surgery because I don't want skin from other parts of my body to be used as a penis.
3, why do people even care about what's in your pants?
I am over 14 yrs post op but there was a time when i hadn't done barely one thing except for in my mind. I was still a transsexual then. Some will never do anything because of health etc etc but that makes them no less a TS
Quote from: Realdimensionaltggirlhere on September 03, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.
So if someone is "just transgender," he or she CAN be a transsexual.
To me, it seems pretty presumptuous to tell other people what they are. And I should point out that telling people here that they are not real transsexuals (if they don't want "the sex change") is against the Terms of Service. We are not allowed to tell others that they are less legitimate.
ETA:
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Quote from: Arch on March 01, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
I've seen all sorts of insensitive and bigoted and ignorant behavior inside the queer bubble. I've seen bigotry against a trans guy (not me) who came to the gay men's group and wasn't "passing." They called him "she." I'm quite certain that some of the men in my gay group would shun me if they knew my history. Some wouldn't care what I've done to my body. Some wouldn't care if I had equipment that rivals theirs. No matter what, they would see me as a liar or an impostor or both.
Inside the trans community, I've been attacked for not telling every person I meet that I am trans, for not being openly trans (without telling absolutely everyone), for not being an activist, for missing trans events, for being gay and not straight, for being gay rather than pansexual or bisexual, for having issues with women, for spending most of my time with cisgender men, for not wanting to consider sexual relationships with trans men, for wanting sexual relationships with guys who have typical penises, for being interested in bottom surgery, for not being interested in bottom surgery, for not being in touch with my "female history/side," and for feeling solidly male rather than identifying as trans or non-binary or genderqueer.
I think you'll find more than one contradiction in that mess. Why people can't just let me be who I am, I'll never know. I have a hard enough time with self-acceptance without everybody else's judgments piled on top of that.
At first, I didn't want bottom surgery. I came out back in the days when Lou Sullivan's FTM book was a key resource, and I saw the pictures. I heard the stories of failed surgeries, deformed results, infections, fissures, and multiple revisions. And I knew that my partner wouldn't be cool with bottom surgery.
I'm out of that relationship now. I still don't know whether I want bottom surgery. I don't heal well, I'm prone to infection, and, quite frankly, I don't have the cash. If I did have the money, I wouldn't spend it on surgery. Not in this economy.
I've had my big soulmate relationship and don't expect another, so I'm not expecting anyone else to see my downstairs bits. I pack, and it helps. Do I want a typical penis, or something closer to a typical penis? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean I want one of the current surgical options, and it doesn't mean I can afford it. Do I have dysphoria about that part of my body? Absolutely. Every damned day, and I wish I didn't.
And I have a couple of close trans friends who say they do not want bottom surgery, ever. Maybe they'll change their minds. Maybe not. What the f*** do I care? What business is it of mine? They are my friends, they are boys, they live as men (as I do), and they have some peace with the lower part of their bodies. That's a damn sight better than where I am. The way I fight and struggle and hold onto things, I may never be at peace. But my ambivalence about bottom surgery has nothing to do with you, and it's really none of your business.
Yeah, gay men can be a bit...ehh when it comes to ftms. Most of them are totally cool with mtf's (they think cause we get to enjoy straight men ::) ::)) , but many wouldn't date ftm's and how can you blame them? Even if an ftm has had bottom surgery it still doesn't look quite *natural* where mtf's can be post-op and it wouldn't be evident.
It was disrespectful to call that ftm "she" though.
Quote from: SilentOwls on September 03, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Yeah, gay men can be a bit...ehh when it comes to ftms. Most of them are totally cool with mtf's (they think cause we get to enjoy straight men ::) ::)) , but many wouldn't date ftm's and how can you blame them? Even if an ftm has had bottom surgery it still doesn't look quite *natural* where mtf's can be post-op and it wouldn't be evident.
It was disrespectful to call that ftm "she" though.
Can you just not come to the ftm board and say messed up things about our surgeries? Thanks.
Quote from: Andy8715 on September 03, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Can you just not come to the ftm board and say messed up things about our surgeries? Thanks.
Sorry, but a lot of *biological* men (note that I didn't say all)are highly visual creatures and know what they want and ftm surgery is not there *YET* (I'm sure someday it will be) and neither is MTF surgery (in terms of depth and *feel* things like a uterus the surgery leaves something to be desired.)
Quote from: Andy8715 on September 03, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
Can you just not come to the ftm board and say messed up things about our surgeries? Thanks.
There is an old TS adage that states, "It is more difficult to make a pole than a hole."
We must recognize there are shortcomings with all cosmetic surgeries. Perhaps the future lies in genetic engineering, and the ability to grow our own organs.
The chromosomes are there.
Quote from: Jamie D on September 03, 2012, 04:21:32 PM
and the ability to grow our own organs.
Last I heard, the possibility was getting closer.
Quote from: SilentOwls on September 03, 2012, 04:10:59 PM
Sorry, but a lot of *biological* men (note that I didn't say all)are highly visual creatures and know what they want and ftm surgery is not there *YET* (I'm sure someday it will be) and neither is MTF surgery (in terms of depth and *feel* things like a uterus the surgery leaves something to be desired.)
Not helping the case.
Quote from: SilentOwls on September 03, 2012, 04:10:59 PM
Sorry, but a lot of *biological* men (note that I didn't say all)are highly visual creatures and know what they want and ftm surgery is not there *YET* (I'm sure someday it will be) and neither is MTF surgery (in terms of depth and *feel* things like a uterus the surgery leaves something to be desired.)
OK, so I do not discuss an awful lot of things with cismen about their sex lives, but I am 99% sure that the uterus is not part of the sexual act. Lol. Unless the penis is going through her cervix.
Also, I have met a few gay men through my old job, and quite a few of them either have dated FTMs, or know someone who has dated an FTM. And they never seemed to have a problem with it at all.
I am not transgendered, nor am I a transsexual. I am simply a woman who is inventing her gender expression for herself for the first time. I'm coming in upon my womanhood and enjoying all the ups and downs that come with the journey.
I don't like the term "trans" it means to cross, like transatlantic--cross the Atlantic. I prefer the term invent. It literally means to "come in upon."
I'm not transitioning. I'm inventing. I've never been a man. I've always been a woman. Now, if I decided one day I wanted to be a man, then maybe I'd be transitioning.
Personally, I would be a lot more excited about bottom surgery if there were better results. Even though I don't exactly love what I have, I'd rather keep it than have expensive and painful surgery to have something that doesn't look or function much like the real thing. I'm also finding that the growth and extra sensitivity from being on T is making it easier to enjoy what I've already got.
There are a lot of reasons why some people don't have SRS. And while there are some "->-bleeped-<-s", there are also a lot of guys who honestly don't care if a woman has a penis, and wouldn't see her any differently than a ciswoman.
Quote from: SilentOwls on September 03, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Yeah, gay men can be a bit...ehh when it comes to ftms. Most of them are totally cool with mtf's (they think cause we get to enjoy straight men ::) ::)) , but many wouldn't date ftm's and how can you blame them? Even if an ftm has had bottom surgery it still doesn't look quite *natural* where mtf's can be post-op and it wouldn't be evident.
I've seen some pretty spectacular, natural-looking results. It's what I'm hoping to get myself someday. If I get the job I want in a few years, I can get SRS covered or mostly covered.
Frankly, I myself wouldn't be particularly interested in dating an FTM even if he had had a very successful phallo. I mean, I would try to keep an open mind, but one turnoff is...well, at the present moment, I feel that there is no substitute for a fully functional, nature-made penis. I love the way it behaves, reacts, and seems to have a mind of its own. So, in that respect at least, I'm a lot like the men I hang out with.
So I probably wouldn't date me, and I would understand if someone didn't want to date me, even after phallo.
Quote from: edderkopp on September 03, 2012, 04:32:12 PM
Also, I have met a few gay men through my old job, and quite a few of them either have dated FTMs, or know someone who has dated an FTM. And they never seemed to have a problem with it at all.
I hang out with an older crowd, and I know of only one man who met an FTM for a date. Apparently, the cis guy practically ran out of there before getting to know the trans guy. And that's the experience one of my gay trans acquaintances has had as well. But I don't think A4A is the best testing ground.
Quote from: Arch on September 04, 2012, 01:21:24 AM
I hang out with an older crowd, and I know of only one man who met an FTM for a date. Apparently, the cis guy practically ran out of there before getting to know the trans guy. And that's the experience one of my gay trans acquaintances has had as well. But I don't think A4A is the best testing ground.
lmao I <3 that you know abuot A4A.
Quote from: SilentOwls on September 04, 2012, 01:26:28 AM
lmao I <3 that you know abuot A4A.
Honey, I've been steeped in gayness for decades. I know things my GAY friends don't know, much to my surprise. And most of them are older than I am.
No wonder nobody suspects me of being anything but a typical cisgender gay man. Now, if only I could learn to swish properly...that would be the icing on the c***.
Quote from: Arch on September 04, 2012, 01:30:44 AM
Honey, I've been steeped in gayness for decades. I know things my GAY friends don't know, much to my surprise. And most of them are older than I am.
No wonder nobody suspects me of being anything but a typical cisgender gay man. Now, if only I could learn to swish properly...that would be the icing on the c***.
yes daughter, you have to master the swish!
Although it depends, I don't know how west coast gays are :P
And I've only been steeped in gayness since my early teens, I suppose I'll have to now live vicariously through the chelsea queens that I know and love ;D
You two are soooooo bad
Quote from: Realdimensionaltggirlhere on September 03, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
That is just silly. You are not transsexual if you do not want the sex change. You are either genderqueer or just transgender. Transgender= intersex indivduals, transsexuals, and qenderqueers.
People want different things out of life. Just because someone doesn't get a complete surgical reassignment for whatever reason doesn't have a bearing on their identity. Your definition doesn't apply to everyone, and I am sure a lot of folks don't agree with your reasoning. We are a more diverse group than our labels, which is part of what makes it such an interesting community.
Quote from: Jamie D on September 03, 2012, 04:21:32 PM
There is an old TS adage that states, "It is more difficult to make a pole than a hole."
We must recognize there are shortcomings with all cosmetic surgeries. Perhaps the future lies in genetic engineering, and the ability to grow our own organs.
The chromosomes are there.
This just seemed so appropriate for how I am feeling today. :laugh: I dunno why, but it certainly made me chuckle, thanks Jamie.
There are some great results out there. They just cost a lot more than most folks have and for some people it just isn't a realistic goal.
A very relevant question (to me too).
Rephrase that just a little: "How can you be transsexual if you don't want sex reassignment?
Well how in deed?
Lifestyle?
You better be kidding! SERIOUSLY, very seriously.
Just saying,
Axx
Quote from: Abracadabra on September 04, 2012, 05:50:47 AM
A very relevant question (to me too).
Rephrase that just a little: "How can you be transsexual if you don't want sex reassignment?
Well how in deed?
Lifestyle?
You better be kidding! SERIOUSLY, very seriously.
Just saying,
Axx
huh?
There are as many answers to this question as there are people it applies to. What makes a man or a woman. It certainly is not just a bit of tissue.
The whole question sounds like the sort of thing Gatekeepers ask too many of us. SRS is pretty well irrevocable, so for many the whole idea of SRS is just too daunting to face.
Lets be a bit kinder to each other I say.
Karen.
Quote from: Arch on March 01, 2012, 02:42:07 PM
Why people can't just let me be who I am, I'll never know.
Oh, wow. That's a lot of crap coming at you from a lot of different directions. I feel for you, Arch.
I'm going to venture a guess and say it's because they are troubled by their own doubts about themselves and the decisions they're trying to make and they are looking to others to validate them. You making different decisions, wanting different things, expressing yourself differently--those who love themselves can better appreciate the diversity in others but these are all threats to a desperately insecure person. It's like someone who was raised under certain religious beliefs that they find themselves questioning later in life. They feel under tremendous pressure to retain those beliefs. There is a lot of fear associated with the doubts they're starting to have. So they start surrounding themselves with people who share their beliefs. They start evangelizing to convert others to their same beliefs. It's a desperate attempt to shore up one's own insecurities. Such a person desperately needs confirmation and validation from others for their choices.
Quote from: Poptart on February 28, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
Any cisgendered man's worst nightmare is losing his dick.
A much worse nightmare that I actually (unfortunately) can't help thinking about sometimes is getting a horrible facial disfigurement, like from a car accident or a psycho on bath salts. At best, I'd probably become a total social recluse and just live a virtual life online. At worst, I'd probably kill myself. My prediction is the latter within a fairly short period of time, though obviously I couldn't know unless it actually happened. I've actually ended up in conversations stimulated by some shocking story in the news where guys are talking about the hypothetical of losing some or all portions of genitals and yes, I heard one guy say he'd kill himself, but the answer was very curious to me. 99% of my life is not my sex life, and even that part, I feel I would adjust and it would still be largely salvageable. Meanwhile, I could still go out and enjoy most of the stuph I'm enjoying now and it wouldn't change any of it. Would it suck? Of course. Is it the most nightmarish thing imaginable
to me? Nowhere near.
Meanwhile, I don't think it's even fully analogous to most guys here. If I merely lost my penis in an accident, I'm assuming pleasure-receptive nerves are just gone. That's quite different from having other than my ideal size & shape of genitalia but where pretty much the same nerves are there in some form.
Huhmm "gender queer" is a very ambiguous word.. could apply to anything that disturbs the natural nature of the gender roles as they are traditionally played out. Transexual to me means transitional sex. Your neither totally one or the other, and have the mind and body of two different parts that are not in harmony with each other. I am not presuming what to tell you that you are, you are all individuals and sexual identity is very complexed, and can't always be dismissed as a "label". If you are comfortable in the state of mind and body you are in, then to me your fine as you are.
Labels are always hurtful, even the word queer which generally applies to us all. From a stright cis persons perspective, much of the time. I really wouldn't get hung up on words, they are flawed and dont always accurately describe who you are as a person, and in your mind.
Catherine x <3
Quote from: dalebert on September 04, 2012, 09:22:26 AM
Oh, wow. That's a lot of crap coming at you from a lot of different directions. I feel for you, Arch.
It's one of the big reasons I stopped going to trans meetings and hanging out with trans men very much. Once I realized that I had much more in common with the men in my gay group, I was only too happy to let the trans world slip out of my fingers. I still have a close trans friend and another couple of trans guys that I see from time to time, but I'm done with the meetings and events.
It's why I prefer the term "transgender". Of course this is a global term. But it never really was about sex. It's about gender.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on September 04, 2012, 11:23:48 PM
It's why I prefer the term "transgender". Of course this is a global term. But it never really was about sex. It's about gender.
--Jay Jay
Well, it kind of is about sex for a lot of people. Their gender isn't the problem; their biological sex is the issue and that's what being addressed.
Quote from: edderkopp on September 04, 2012, 11:29:38 PM
Well, it kind of is about sex for a lot of people. Their gender isn't the problem; their biological sex is the issue and that's what being addressed.
Basically. For me, my sex is what's wrong. I need to fix that (my sex) not my gender.
My friend and co-host referred to the subject of this thread as the 'No True Scotsman' Phallasy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman).
The mis-spelling is of course, purposeful.
Quote from: dalebert on September 04, 2012, 11:51:14 PM
My friend and co-host referred to the subject of this thread as the 'No True Scotsman' Phallasy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman).
The mis-spelling is of course, purposeful.
Good point. Actually, I think this is something that is good to keep in mind whenever we are interacting with anyone. Thanks for the link.
Quote from: Tristan_Markus on February 28, 2012, 05:43:01 PM
its different for each person granted but i personally wavier about things like T. i mean top surgery is a no-brainer, if i could get rid of them tomorrow i would but i'm always concerned about the medical repercussions of T for example knowing full well that i may not be able to get necessary medical procedures because of it and also the long term effects.
Tristan, if you wouldn't mind, could you expound on that? What medical procedures would you be precluded from having if you were on T?
Thanks........30 hours and counting, before the removal of the "evil twins"
Quote from: N.Chaos on February 29, 2012, 01:49:47 AM
Maybe its because I'm with someone I know I'd rather die than be without, and he's fine with my bits, and maybe its just because the near-apocalyptic loathing I have for my chest outweighs nearly everything else, but I don't want bottom surgery. At all. Ever.
To me, its not the same at all. Because nobody is going to see my screwed up downstairs besides my boyfriend. Its not like my chest, where I can't go out without layers on, even during the disgustingly hot, humid summer. Its not something that literally interferes with my physical comfort and ability to breathe. Its something I piss out of, and something I, to be blunt, really enjoy my boyfriend being in. So, I'm fine with that.
Is it weird? Hell, yeah its weird. I know its weird. I know I'm a gigantic walking joke, and maybe I'm growing a bit as a person or just becoming cynical in a new and exciting way, but I don't care. Let me be a damn joke. Let me be a fake and a bull->-bleeped-<-ter, and whatever else anyone else thinks up. At this point, it barely registers.
And hell, I wear makeup. I'm sure some people one here, though they've never said it, would love to sling "fake" at me, and I don't blame them. I'm not, never have been, and never will be Joe Average.
And I'm totally fine with that.
People too busy judging you as "fake" aren't people I'm all that interested in knowing. People with the bravery to speak their individual truths as you have, I find are the people I want to get to know most. The kind of people I would love to "break bread" with, as "they" say.
Good for you for saying just how you like your body touched. It's your body, it's your right to have it touched or not touched in any way you like. Whatever happened to " My Body My Rights." When did so many in the LGBTTIQ community decide for themselves that it was just fine and dandy to police every other member's sexual habits, or gender expressions?
Oh we'll rail and scream and protest for days, if a mainstream straight person does it, but if a MOT (member of the tribe) tries to judge another member's way of being, well you end up getting a crowd, judging things they ought not stick their noses into. It's analogous to the DOMA types screaming about how gay marriage harms the family and the institution of marriage, and yet say nothing of dirty old bastards in their 60s and 70s, and even (ug) older marrying children. And yes, at 15 you're still a child. Or at least you should be allowed to be one. Or the multiple marriages that are now fodder for television producers too cheap, or lacking in an sense of creativity, to hire WRITERS. To write good stories. But I digress....
I truly admire your conviction in walking your own path, in spite of judgements that in the end, mean nothing. And are really a reflection of the one judging.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 28, 2012, 07:55:19 PM
Ooo this is a fun thread. Since I'm one of those odd balls I feel obligated to make a post.
One of the reasons why I don't like labels or physiological diagnosis when it comes to gender is because there exists in the world a lot of variance. This is truth. I live that truth every day, not just because I came into this world transsexual, but I also came into it with not having the "right" body. Beyond just being transsexual, my body doesn't conform 100% to male or 100% to female. I've had screwy hormones from the get-go among other things.
So to me, someone coming along and not understanding how there can be variation, is simply someone who hasn't realized the whole world is actually full of variation. They're wrapped up in text-book definitions and clear-cut labels.
Until science can grow test tube dicks and attach them to you without rejection you're never going to have the "cis male" body you "should have been born with". Actually, even then, you're never going to have the cis male body. An archeologist unearthing your bones thousands of years from now would see female bones and even your remains will be labeled female. Welcome to reality. Yes, there's some "treatments" that exist that will get you close in an outward physical appearance (to be able to live as your chosen gender in society) and for those that are willing to put their bodies and their health on the line in an attempt to "correct" it, that is entirely their choice.
Obviously, I'm one of the people who feel very strongly about my health. This body is the only one I got in this life and no matter what, I'm going to try to live my life as naturally and healthy as possible. I've already been down the drugs and alcohol route because I had hated my body so much I just wanted to cover up reality. Well, that didn't work for me any more than taking extra hormones did (which is also, technically, taking drugs to cover up the reality). So my reality was I had to find other, alternative ways to deal with the situation. I get that there's people out there who would rather be dead than live with their body as-is. I've already been there too, but realized I wanted to live ... "perfect body" or not. I didn't want to die and I didn't want to risk the health I had to obtain something that in my mind, would always have been a band-aid to a much larger issue. I would never have that "perfect body" so for me, it's taken years to get to a place where I'm comfortable in my own skin and that I can live my life and be mostly happy.
Since, like I said, I didn't start out life like many others do - as a healthy, easily-gendered baby, I came to the conclusion that maybe I really am "normal" just the way I am. Maybe for me, being part of both genders (and looking that part) was the most natural thing I could do. I should just "be me" as they say, and that me has female aspects and male aspects. My brain is definitely one of the male aspects. I know for many of us the brain-body difference is what causes most of our problems. We see ourselves one way, but society doesn't, and our bodies not matching what our minds "see" is another whole layer of issues. "Transition" was developed to help society see transsexuals "correctly" and for transsexuals to be more comfortable in their bodies. It's a treatment plan for a set series of symptoms.
Well, for me, I realized I didn't need transition. Yes, a lot of society is still going to deal with me as female even though I don't look 100% female and I certainly don't feel female. But my own personal perspective is that I am mostly male and that actually is the normal, natural me. Someone calling me "ma'am" at the grocery store doesn't actually change that.
I'm well into my 30s right now and to say that I had a rough time of it as a teenager and in my 20s would be a colossal understatement. I was unaware of anything like "transition" when I was younger. Being the hot-headed, easily depressed youth I was I can't say that I wouldn't have snapped at the chance to walk down that path. But I can say in hindsight that I'm really glad I didn't. That's my personal choice and no one but me has to understand it - even though I don't mind explaining why I made the decision and what impact it has on me and my life. I am a living example that there are many different choices that someone who has been dealt these kind of cards in life can have. And also that in my case, years passing gave me perspective and the mental tools to solve some of my problems that I never could get out of a syringe full of hormones. But that's just me. From what I see, that's not the "majority rule" around here.
People make their own choices for many different and personal reasons.
And just as a side note - I know two, male-born individuals who don't give two-sh*ts about their dicks. One says, and I quote, "The damn thing is an annoyance" and the other simply says, "Yeah, it's there, I piss out of it, that's about it." So don't lump every male into that boat that dicks are everything. Once again, there is much variation in the world and making assumptions and broad statements, even if it may be in the majority, still leaves that minority out there where the usual "rules" don't apply. Transsexuals themselves are a minority where the normal rules don't apply.
FTM is simply an additional term created to apply to males in female bodies and yes, the "T", as I understand it, stand for "to" implying there is a transitional path the individual is on from female TO male. This is why I don't personally call myself FTM. I can certainly relate to you all, which is why I come around here. I can call myself transsexual because by definition that does fit, but I don't even like that label either because of the psychological "disorder" implications. I don't feel I have a disorder. I just feel this is the normal, natural state for me. The only actual label so far that I don't mind is simply the descriptor, androgynous. That pretty much fits for me. So I'm an androgynous dude in a somewhat female body who's really into natural health. ;)
ETA
I forgot to mention I've also known many male-born guys who developed "moobs" and are just fine with them.
I absolutely love the way you think. Aside from my being at least ten years older than you, we could have been twins. I too wasn't "easily gendered" at birth, and that continued throughout my life. And, if I had A cups or double As like an old g/f (ooooh, so jealous) I would not be having surgery. I would rather do it all naturally. And I am also on T, though I would rather not be on T at all. I actually had much bigger muscles before I went on T. I'll see how I feel about taking it after the surgery is over and healed. I've been off for a month now, just to be ready for the surgery, and I was taking a lower and lower dose before going off. I may go back on, and I may stay off. I'll see how I feel.
So, although I am taking a route you won't be taking, I hope you will wish me well, since my top surgery is about 30 plus hours away. I thoroughly respect the choices you have made for yourself. It is your body, and no one should dictate or judge what you decide to do with *your* body. That should be a decision for you and you alone to make. And I don't understand people having the time on their hands to wonder about and judge (sometimes very harshly) the choices people in similar circumstances make for themselves. If they aren't stressed about not making certain choices, why should anyone else "worry" (read: judge) what others do? Worry/judge your own body, not others.
Anyway, I completely agree with what you wrote. And I love the way you think.
Peace brother
Quote from: edderkopp on September 04, 2012, 11:29:38 PM
Well, it kind of is about sex for a lot of people. Their gender isn't the problem; their biological sex is the issue and that's what being addressed.
Well I see your point. But I see mine as well, in that this is not about sex necessarily-- the problem is that the body doesn't align with the gender actually. I think that's why they are using some other terms now-- genital reassignment surgery or even genital (or gender) confirmation surgery.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: N.Chaos on February 29, 2012, 01:49:47 AM
I can't (and wouldn't) speak for anyone else, but I don't honestly give a goddamn about my downstairs region. Maybe its because I'm with someone I know I'd rather die than be without, and he's fine with my bits, and maybe its just because the near-apocalyptic loathing I have for my chest outweighs nearly everything else, but I don't want bottom surgery. At all. Ever.
To me, its not the same at all. Because nobody is going to see my screwed up downstairs besides my boyfriend. Its not like my chest, where I can't go out without layers on, even during the disgustingly hot, humid summer. Its not something that literally interferes with my physical comfort and ability to breathe. Its something I piss out of, and something I, to be blunt, really enjoy my boyfriend being in. So, I'm fine with that.
Is it weird? Hell, yeah its weird. I know its weird. I know I'm a gigantic walking joke, and maybe I'm growing a bit as a person or just becoming cynical in a new and exciting way, but I don't care. Let me be a damn joke. Let me be a fake and a bull->-bleeped-<-ter, and whatever else anyone else thinks up. At this point, it barely registers.
Granted, I'm in a huge minority here. I'd rather cut off my hand then go through HRT, as one of the few tiny blessings I've got is an unusually deep voice. I don't want to look like a walking carpet. And hell, I wear makeup. I'm sure some people one here, though they've never said it, would love to sling "fake" at me, and I don't blame them. I'm not, never have been, and never will be Joe Average.
And I'm totally fine with that.
Buck Angel, who is a porn star, is one of the manliest men I have ever met. He gets penetrated all the time, and enjoys it; I doubt anyone would have the courage to walk up to that big muscular dude and say " I don't get you! Why don't you get bottom surgery?"
So you are not weird at all. You are you. Don't let anyone make you feel less than for what YOU want to do with YOUR body. It's got absolutely no bearing on their life. Anyone who criticizes your choices for your body is being a douchebag. And should stick to working on their own gardens instead of criticizing other people's choice of garden.
I know this is a hot topic, but let's respect the rules and keep the language to a dull roar, OK? Thank you, hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: TwoSpirit on September 05, 2012, 01:03:27 AM
I absolutely love the way you think. Aside from my being at least ten years older than you, we could have been twins. I too wasn't "easily gendered" at birth, and that continued throughout my life. And, if I had A cups or double As like an old g/f (ooooh, so jealous) I would not be having surgery. I would rather do it all naturally. And I am also on T, though I would rather not be on T at all. I actually had much bigger muscles before I went on T. I'll see how I feel about taking it after the surgery is over and healed. I've been off for a month now, just to be ready for the surgery, and I was taking a lower and lower dose before going off. I may go back on, and I may stay off. I'll see how I feel.
So, although I am taking a route you won't be taking, I hope you will wish me well, since my top surgery is about 30 plus hours away. I thoroughly respect the choices you have made for yourself. It is your body, and no one should dictate or judge what you decide to do with *your* body. That should be a decision for you and you alone to make. And I don't understand people having the time on their hands to wonder about and judge (sometimes very harshly) the choices people in similar circumstances make for themselves. If they aren't stressed about not making certain choices, why should anyone else "worry" (read: judge) what others do? Worry/judge your own body, not others.
Anyway, I completely agree with what you wrote. And I love the way you think.
Peace brother
Thank you :) And I hope you're recovering nicely!
I will never be able to put myself in the shoes of a guy or girl who doesn't want HRT, but I try to be chill about letting people call their own shots about who they are, the same as I expect people to understand that I am a "real" (trans)guy even though I'm not putting surgery ahead of everything else in my life. I don't think that surgery is an option for me right now because I don't have the ability to put my kid on a shelf. I'm still male, and just because my body didn't get the message when I was a fetus doesn't change that.
Also "transsexual" is not defined by surgery. That's outdated and was never true by consensus to begin with.
I personally would like to have it all done asap but I know for me thats not possible. I live as a male, I am a guy but I have the wrong parts. Most of the time this isn't as big a problem until it comes to relationships and sex for me. I will one day get everything though right now i am hormone free surgery free thats because of my current situation. I am sending my son to private school which honestly cost more than i can afford so due to that mad house situation and only making like 10.40 an hr American I know it will be way down the road. I bind and I pass more than not. Its not ideal but it's what works for me for now. I am sorry you feel that your alone and that no one understands. I used to hate myself soo much for having the wrong body when I was younger I would do idiotic and dangerous things because i was a coward yet didn't want to live my life in this body. As I grew older I realized how simple minded I was and came up with a plan on how to go about it. Good luck with everything and even though you feel alone know that there are others out there who feel similar as well.
I am slowly coming to a position where I feel I am transitioning from male to someone who transcending Gender altogether. So the idea of SRS is not as urgent as when I believed I was becoming a woman per se. Now that I am starting to identify as the unidentifiable, I am starting to accept what is down there as just what is down there.
I am accepted by society as a woman on a day-to-day basis, which makes life easier and unless there is a possibility of a sexual or romantic relationship my genitalia is a non-issue. Any prospective partner will have a fair idea of what I will look like, so if they can't accept it then they are not going to be attractive to me in the long term anyway.
Karen.