Hullo, comrades! I've got a story to tell ye.
Today I was walking to work, wearing a denim jacket and a metal hoodie underneath, my newly dyed dark purple hair swaying in the wind. Earlier in the morning I got a message on my Tumblr about how much of a babe I was, and of course, being pre HRT, I smiled and dismissed it, as I have little confidence in my ability to pass. I figured "eh, no way, no one would say that IRL if they saw me...". That thought stayed in my mind all morning until I passed an older looking guy on the sidewalk who whistled at me. And I'm positive he was whistling at me, as there was no one else nearby. My concept of reality crumpled like tinfoil as I realized I not only pass decently well without HRT, but I had just been catcalled for the first time ever. Before I could even start feeling comfortable in my own skin, some creep turned it into a sexual object.
I'm now facing womanhood, complete with weird, strange looks and people treating me like I'm nothing more than eye candy. I wasn't socialized for this! And even if I was, it would still be creepy and annoying! Women shouldn't have to put up with this if they're uncomfortable with it! I recall a story Kate Bornstein wrote in Gender Outlaws, about how some guy would follow her to her car, rubbing his crotch going, "Wanna suck those tits, bitch." She froze like a deer in headlights. My situation wasn't nearly as scary, but it's along the same topic...
How have you folks dealt with this sort of thing early on in your transition? I mean, on one hand, it's good to know you're passing, on the other, it's pretty creepy (to me.) Don't get me wrong, some of you might enjoy such things, and that's fine by me, but yeah. This one's for the people out there who are/were as weirded out as I am.
I am staying in a hotel for this month and, I am unsure why, there are a lot of working class males staying here. I figure some company requires them for a job, or whatever. Anyway, everytime I go to the breakfast rooms I have some of these people turning their heads to look at me and they don't even try to be discret about it. Although I am passing, that is besides the point, because I know I pass without this. It is annoying to get this all the time.
One day one of them even sang when passing by me, some brazilian music with very sugestive lyrics.
I am ignoring them like they weren't there. First of all, I am passing, so I don't feel the need to fear TG hate, second, it is a hotel and there is always staff near. Now, if I knew I wans't protected, I wouldn't go anywhere near them.
Quote from: Beverley on March 13, 2012, 06:02:49 PM
I was not socialised for it either and all GGs have had to grow up with it and learn to deal with it. We do as well, this is part of the package deal of becoming female. I hope it happens again.... >:-)
Beverley
As a feminist I believe that while yes, these things do happen and will happen again, we shouldn't have to deal with it. No one should have to deal with being objectified if they don't want to be. Our minds should be just as respected as our bodies, and when men behave like this, it's just another thing keeping us from being respected as equals in a gendered world. I don't want to accept it and grow complacent.
You just laugh to yourself and move on. Letting it get to you doesn't hurt them, only you.
I think the point of the OP was not about being noticed or not. I like being noticed, when guys open doors for me, the works. There are certain situations though, where it can get past a certain comfort zone. There are certain times, guys are rude when they approach a woman, or are rude in the manner they express their admiration, such as grabbing their crotch and letting out a gutural sound.
Also, there are certain situations where it is not how individual males are acting, but the amount of individual males you are getting attention from. Aside from the improper song I heard, I didn't receive any other rude comment from the males here, but it is uncomfortable to walk into a room and be noticed by 8 males and have them check you out!
I feel it is annoying and I just ignore them. There is nothing else to be done about it :)
Quote from: Queen Erika on March 13, 2012, 06:19:18 PM
As a feminist I believe that while yes, these things do happen and will happen again, we shouldn't have to deal with it. No one should have to deal with being objectified if they don't want to be. Our minds should be just as respected as our bodies, and when men behave like this, it's just another thing keeping us from being respected as equals in a gendered world. I don't want to accept it and grow complacent.
I wouldn't call myself a feminist, but I am a realist or a cynic, and I am a strong believer in gender equality.
Fact is while these things shouldn't happen, they do, and I honestly doubt it will ever completely stop.
But I just want to throw it out there, things aren't all fine and dandy for the male side either.
I usually just ignore being hit on, it's apart of the reality of the world we live in and unfortunately that world includes a lot of sucky things. Sexual objectification not the worst of it.
But we are in the middle of a male degradation too. I see advertisements everywhere routinely portraying men as dumb, useless, better off if they just listen to their wifes and girlfriends. Stuff that in todays world would never be accepted if done with the genders reversed.
I don't mean or want to derail the topic. Just to put some new perspective into it. I don't think women are treated equally, I don't think men are either.
Quote from: Beverley on March 13, 2012, 06:37:13 PM
Most men like to notice women and most women like to be noticed. You are fighting against our biological programming.
I understand where you're coming from on that, but I'm not 100% sure it's "biological programming". That seems a bit deterministic. Sure, testosterone can make you extra horny and therefore you "look" for more women, but that can have roots in culture too, where men are the ones who are typically expected to find mates and ask girls out; It's a pretty rigid "butch" and "femme" labelling system that's all over media and art etc.
That said, maybe I'll feel less crazed by this whole thing once I actually start HRT :P
And yeah, my main point is that while attention is often good,
too much attention or the wrong kind of attention can be harmful.
I'm sorry, I don't see what's so new about this?
After you probably spent your whole life being objectified as a male ("lift this for me", "open this jar", "fix this ____"), getting catcalled once means it's time to fly the feminist flag?
People suck, that's all there is to it imo :-\ it's not a woman-only issue. Not that those pushy come-ons are good but it's just life.
Btw, the example you gave with Kate Bornstein was legitimate harassment and you have to draw a line between harassment and just rude-seeming woo-hoos. It's a different type of thing.
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 01:56:15 AM
I'm sorry, I don't see what's so new about this?
After you probably spent your whole life being objectified as a male ("lift this for me", "open this jar", "fix this ____"), getting catcalled once means it's time to fly the feminist flag?
People suck, that's all there is to it imo :-\ it's not a woman-only issue. Not that those pushy come-ons are good but it's just life.
Btw, the example you gave with Kate Bornstein was legitimate harassment and you have to draw a line between harassment and just rude-seeming woo-hoos. It's a different type of thing.
I agree with this.
Except i think it was hilarious what happened to Kate Bornstein.
I most likely would have burst out in laughter, what an absolutely terrible way to hit on someone, it's laughable.
Worst chat line I have ever had. A guy came up to me in a bar and said 'If I buy you a drink can we have sex?' If that is how guys think, then the species is terminal :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:.
He thought is was normal!!!
Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your experience op. I don't think that any woman should have to put up with any form of unwanted sexual attention (which cat calling is). Men are not "biologically" predisposed towards treating women as objects and pushing that view actually limits men's sexuality as well as women's. I find it a shame that we have people here telling the OP that this should be considered normal. It isn't.
I find the best thing to do when anything like that happens is to talk to your girlfriends about it and they will have had similar experiences and will most likely give you a hug and make you fell better.
When I was living a male lifestyle, I had been objectified as a man a total of once, to my memory. I was never asked to open anything, fix anything, and I never really enjoyed the cool male privileges like people valuing my input, taking me more seriously, and stuff like that. That one time was a guy advising me to think with my penis, a comment I giggled at at the time.
On the other hand, I have heard a catcall once, but haven't experienced much, if any, objectification as a woman either. I have men politely telling me that I'm beautiful every now and then, so I guess that's as objectifying as Canada gets... but it isn't very extreme, though it is often.
Maybe it's attitude. I like to think I'm the cute and silly type, with a little punk and sass mixed in. Perhaps people respect me because I present myself as someone who is strong, as opposed to conforming to an image of being weaker.
Or perhaps it's location. After all, Canada is a pretty cool place.
This isn't necessarily even to do with passing, so much as with conditioning. I've noticed male friends of mine are inclined to treat me differently since they found out I was transitioning - arm round the shoulder, calling me dear, door opening, all that kind of malarkey - and I'm definitely not "passing". It's just what a lot of men are conditioned from a young age to do in the presence of women - and it's really weird suddenly to be on the receiving end of it.
As for the flirting and trying it on and all that side of things, this isn't "men", it's "straight men" ;D.
Eh, I guess I got used to being seen that way as a gay bottom... at first it was definitely kind of hard to get used to being looked at in a less dominant way and being the target of guys attention / advances... but... eventually it stops bothering you.
I also was used to being seen in the "strong male" type of way. Where I would be asked to do more physical things (like moving heavy objects)... but I had no problem with that! I actually enjoyed having a nice body and being in great shape with a good amount of strength (and enjoyed showing it off).
And now it is a complete turn-around ... people never expect anything like that anymore :) Kind of funny how life is sometimes haha.
Just relax and enjoy it :)
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on March 14, 2012, 04:42:49 AM
Maybe it's attitude. I like to think I'm the cute and silly type, with a little punk and sass mixed in. Perhaps people respect me because I present myself as someone who is strong, as opposed to conforming to an image of being weaker.
Or perhaps it's location. After all, Canada is a pretty cool place.
Agreed on Canada part and it can be a factor (I don't hear.. well, any catcalls in Finland, people just keep their eyes peeled). :p But, alas, I'm going to go with punk and sass mixed in with your style to work just around everywhere. "Normal" men don't exactly like punkstuff that much that they would go catcalling after you. It's not much at any standards, but I have a feeling that it's those "normal"-type (those on fashionmagazines) are the type that gets most calls, because it's what typical men want.
When we get out from the main mainstream, some of the jerks drop out, reducing catcalling. Further you move, the less you get. And the more you get in polite way. At least that's what I think, I haven't done any studies on the matter. And it could be just Finland that has general men who don't really go well into punkish style and attitude. :p
Then, imagining myself in the situation, I'd probably like it for the first few times (now that's a pass! :p), but it would get uncomfortable in the long run.
I love being hit on. It reassures me that I look good, hehe. No one has ever crossed the line though IRL, only in chats. Some guys online can be total creeps.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on March 14, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
I love being hit on. It reassures me that I look good, hehe. No one has ever crossed the line though IRL, only in chats. Some guys online can be total creeps.
+1
except no one hits on me lol
BUT IF THEY DID!... then I would say I agree.
whatever..stop lying :p
It was a bizarre scenario the first few times that men treated me with extra...attention? No cat-calls, but overly helpful and sending out that "giddy" vibe and all smiles. The first man that treated me in such a fashion was a clerk at a Smashburger. When he learned it was our first time there, he ran around the counter with a menu, got really close to me(not my girl_friend), leaned in, and started explaining the menu. I didn't know what to do except play the flattered female role. When he got around to his side of the counter, and I ordered and handed him my credit card, he asked to see my license because the back wasn't signed. I handed him my license - which had male pic, male name, and male sex on it. The vibes quickly died. :)
I've gotten used to what little attention I get from men. The stares are bizarre. I tend to feel complimented, unless it's some guy that sends off the creeper impression - like, "would you feel attracted to anything that had boobs?" Then it's not so much of a compliment toward me personally.
I don't mind the objectification because I don't have to deal with this person on a regular basis - if I did, I would politely ask them to stop. :)
Ah yes, the stares! It can be very disconcerting. I sometimes think "why are so many guys staring at me?", but it's just what guys do.
When I'm walking around town I try to avoid eye contact with males so I don't see the stares.
Quote+1
except no one hits on me lol
+1
I never get hit on either, must be unattractive and too tall for anyone to hit on me LOL. I don't think i would mind it really unless they had that serial killer vibe.
I've been hit on twice... once with no makeup, wearing work clothes (company shirt w/ male jeans) by some random ->-bleeped-<-. Another time at a club, again with no makeup, wearing all male clothes.
It's pretty reassuring that ->-bleeped-<-s know I'm trans without even going out as female. I love going to straight clubs, too. I get more looks from guys there than I do at gay clubs :P .. and I've never been out in public in female clothes, or with makeup on.
I just love it how if I'm at a restaurant sitting down, waiting for food, guys walk by me and through my peripherals, see them looking down at me right as they walk past me.
I just remembered, i was in Thailand and i was in an elevator and got off the wrong floor, this guy tilted his head and smiled at me, i had no make up on and because i was going to the air port had male outfit on.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft1.ftcdn.net%2Fjpg%2F00%2F10%2F36%2F36%2F400_F_10363659_R1bEPtmAJc2A8Ag33zCu30I6TkCZTgHk.jpg&hash=aa0c9c62cb8cd26bffac0e06231799890a509912)
His smile was like this but he tilted his head, like it was falling from his head. I thought he was making fun of me, was he?
P.S - He wasn't that handsome.
Unless the man involved makes a habit of it, I'd just accept it as proof that you pass pretty well, and leave it at that. Just consider it a compliment from someone socially retarded. ::)
Must admit I don't mind if it's another woman, never know where it could lead. But I know where I'd like it to! >:-)
Karen.
QuoteIt was probably just a shy guy. So he smiled at you? Why are you LOOKING for failure here Donna? Did he run out of the elevator screaming? Did he lie on the floor laughing, kicking his legs in the air like a dying fly? Did he yell "OMG your are a transexual?". No - he smiled.
There is an old saying in England (maybe everywhere, but definitely England) and that is "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then whatever you think, it is probably a duck". Learn to accept people's behaviour for what it appears to be. People are NOT going to walk up to you in public and say "You are clearly a woman - well done" and pin a badge on you. When people accept you as a woman you will get glanced at, sometimes you will get smiles, most times you will just get ignored.
I completely understand and you're right, i'm just weird...yes negative...i just can't find anything positive about myself but before this goes on being about me, it was a cheek to cheek smile/grin so i just thought it was weird....my mom quipped "he likes what he see's"....i told her "he was laughing at me"...*sigh*. You have to admit it's weird that he tilted his head, who smiles like that?!
QuoteUnless the man involved makes a habit of it,
No, i never saw him again, i don't live in Thailand lol :).
Quote from: JenJen2011 on March 14, 2012, 08:35:21 AM
No one has ever crossed the line though IRL, only in chats.
Yea, I had only had guys cross the line in chats too.... untill yesterday :| :|
I was going to pick up a friend at 7:30 am and was on the elevator in my building. Another guy got on on the way down... I said hi and then started looking at my phone. He asked if i lived there, and said he had seen me before, and then asked for my number. After checking to make sure he was ok with my type (heh, i was a little shocked) ... i said sure he could have my number.
This is where he crossed the line... when we got off the elevator... as I was walking out past him, he grabbed me and started kissing me!!!!!
I guess I wasn't as used to the aggressive approach as I had thought. I just froze and couldn't think :| The rest of the day turned out to be interesting too lol
The thing is, all this was with him knowing I was trans... I wasn't dolled up or anything that early in the morning....
Lol. And what did you do? Did you like it? Or did you give him a good ol' slap in the face? :p
Quote from: JenJen2011 on March 16, 2012, 08:57:08 AM
Lol. And what did you do? Did you like it? Or did you give him a good ol' slap in the face? :p
I was just so shocked that I froze up.. i don't react to things violently :P
Looking back, I made a lot of mistakes yesterday :P But I'm still alive and not hurt... so.... live and learn.
Oh, btw, apparently when a guy tells you he just wants to talk... he is lying!!
Quote from: Queen Erika on March 13, 2012, 05:56:24 PM
How have you folks dealt with this sort of thing early on in your transition? I mean, on one hand, it's good to know you're passing, on the other, it's pretty creepy (to me.) Don't get me wrong, some of you might enjoy such things, and that's fine by me, but yeah. This one's for the people out there who are/were as weirded out as I am.
It can be creepy, depending on what the guy does. But I do enjoy it most of the time :)
As a matter of fact, I instigate it a lot of times. Talk a bit, flirt a bit, smile, walk with a little extra wiggle. Just to mess with their head. I was talking to a girl friend last night about it, it's practically a hobby and it really builds my self esteem. I like to give one last smile over the shoulder as I leave to make the guys head explode (yes the head that's attached to his neck..... xD ).
Quote from: Beverley on March 16, 2012, 09:10:28 AM
There is nothing weird about it. Go to India where tilting the head whilst smiling is very common. There are about a billion indians... how common do you need this to be?
Besides - what does it matter? You will never ever see him again and he was not rude or ill mannered. So even if you are right, why are you going to let someone you do not know make you upset? Right now at this precise moment in time, do you think he is sitting somewhere remembering you and laughing? He has already forgotten you. No matter how good or how bad YOU feel will make no difference to him so why brood on it? Simply accept that you passed and forget it.
Beverley
I did not know that, i know he'll never see me again but i just want to know if it was a good thing or a bad, passing is all i care about, i don't know why.
Quoteyes the head that's attached to his neck..... xD
LOL
Quote from: Beverley on March 16, 2012, 11:06:11 AM
If they do not jump up and down and point at you and nudge their mates then you are passing. It is fairly obvious when you fail....
Remember that most of the time, passing is a big disappointment because absolutely nothing happens because you pass.
Confidence Donna - and practice. Go out and pass some more.
Beverley
I just need to improve my make-up before i do what i stated in my thread, i look exactly like i do in my avatar so...that's a pretty good gauge at what i look like. Thanks Bev
HUGS!
If that avatar picture is you, I don't understand your fear. I would think you would pass perfectly.
Quote from: Renee D on March 16, 2012, 11:43:06 AM
Some guys seem to think that our "type" is more open to things without the niceties that "normal" women would expect for some reason. I've run into a little of that, but I'm adamant about no sex, especially from someone who thinks that way.
I'm with you Renee, It's not only nervy but extremely insulting of anyone to assume that because we are MtF trans we must be looking for sex with a man. That fellow is a good candidate for a swift knee in the crotch! Any woman regardless of their gender at birth deserves to be treated with the same civility and respect that has been traditionally afforded to women in civilized society for generations.
Not because we're *trans*, but i think its because of our genitalia.
They think we're the same as them, sexually.
It's true. Some guys go from total gentlemens to perverts within seconds after telling them I'm trans. Then that's when I hit the X button.
Quote from: Renee D on March 16, 2012, 11:43:06 AM
Some guys seem to think that our "type" is more open to things without the niceties that "normal" women would expect for some reason. I've run into a little of that, but I'm adamant about no sex, especially from someone who thinks that way.
Eh, I dunno... "normal" women jump into bed ALL the time. My best friend (same age as me, hot 'normal' woman) will have sex with a guy just for sex (without all the niceties).
Friends with benefits sittuations are common... and kinda needs a frisky partner to work :P
Not all normal women are sluts and hop in the sack with just anyone. Those that do don't get any respect from the guy anyway, they're just a convenience until the thrill is gone. Bring up the word commitment and the guy is gone at warp speed!
I kind of understand what you're going through a lil better now.
Today I was approaching a door but there were 2 guys in front of me. They got to the door first and opened it, and let me though. I said thanks, and one of the guys gave me one of those "looks". It was very difficult for me to understand how he couldn't see I'm a "guy". I mean, here I am, work clothes and zero makeup.. about 30 hours since I've shaved, and a guy is looking at me with a smile I never get from straight guys. I kind of smiled and walked by him tucking part of my hair behind my ears.
It's really hard to believe you'd pass when you've NEVER, EVER been thought of as female. I mean, for 25 of my 30 years, my perceived sex has ALWAYS been male, so when I look in the mirror I see all the features that make me look like a guy. But apparently HRT has changed enough to make that very questionable on good days.
And btw, when I walked out of that building again, some guy sitting in a van yelled out "Hey girl!". I was the only person in the parking lot and I was about 75 feet away, so I know he wasn't talking to anybody else...
Anyways, just letting u know that I know how you're questioning things right now, but honestly I think the guy thought you were cute.
Quote from: Shantel on March 16, 2012, 04:34:08 PM
Not all normal women are sluts and hop in the sack with just anyone.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-snc7%2F429619_386474274704071_199625580055609_1510245_1467615276_n.jpg&hash=70418bf334241091c736572ba5d78739e19cd47c)
I've had a bunch of guys who were on site at the factory I work at that who were here doing construction openly stare at me as I put my lunch away in the break room. It disgusted my friend, who is also trans and not out about it.
Then just yesterday I caught one of the press operators staring at my butt as I swung out of the press and landed on my feet. I happened to glance over my shoulder and he gave me this leering grin. I just ignored it. He knew me from when I was a guy, which makes it really awkward. lol.
It all depends on the context I suppose.
Ten years ago I was on holiday in Europe and the gondoliers in Venice flirted with all the girls on the bridges we went under. The girls flirted back just as hard. Obviously nothing was actually going to happen, and it was all treated as just a bit of fun by everyone.
Making obscene gestures at work, on the other hand, needs to be dealt with by the HR dept or similar.
Karen.