I'm stuck with an avatar pic because I don't know how to attach pics with my phone...
I think that ffs will be required to pass...I hope the hormones will help a lot!
Hi Steph!
HRT will change you a lot. Though I understand the desire to pass ASAP, it is best to let HRT work, let your hair grown and learn how to dress for your body type. Being a woman is very challenging.
HRT changes us a lot. I remember I desired to get full FFS before, but these days, I wonder if I will do any FFS at all.
From that photo you do not need ffs but a smile, longer hair and thinner eyebrows would make a BIG difference.
Many on here seem to think that perfection and beauty are needed to pass. Look at Donatella Versace. She passes but she has many features that FFS sets out to correct - high hairline, narrow eye, low eyebrows, poor definition around the mouth, larger then average nose (quite a fleshy one IMO). http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/donatella-versace/ (http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/donatella-versace/)
Susan Boyle is another example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Boyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Boyle)
Passing is about being perceived and accepted as female and a lot of it is in gesture, posture, voice and appearance. I would at least give the hormones time to work as they will make a lot of difference as will laser hair removal. Remember that most people you pass in the street cannot remember if you are black or white or male or female. Fine differences in facial features will be lost on most people.
Quote from: Beverley on March 26, 2012, 12:27:50 PM
From that photo you do not need ffs but a smile, longer hair and thinner eyebrows would make a BIG difference.
Many on here seem to think that perfection and beauty are needed to pass. Look at Donatella Versace. She passes but she has many features that FFS sets out to correct - high hairline, narrow eye, low eyebrows, poor definition around the mouth, larger then average nose (quite a fleshy one IMO). http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/donatella-versace/ (http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/donatella-versace/)
Susan Boyle is another example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Boyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Boyle)
Passing is about being perceived and accepted as female and a lot of it is in gesture, posture, voice and appearance. I would at least give the hormones time to work as they will make a lot of difference as will laser hair removal. Remember that most people you pass in the street cannot remember if you are black or white or male or female. Fine differences in facial features will be lost on most people.
Thanks. I am going to take another pic and smile in this one. I get smile lines around my eyes though, and I need dental work.
I agree that the physical is only one aspect of passing, but I can't help it; I want to be pretty! Lol, if possible. ^-^
Let the HRT do its thing for a while first before jumping to FFS. We are all too keen on going under the knife and have a tendency to forget about the risks associated with surgery!
There are enough tricks with makeup and hair to make your presentation feminine enough once HRT has done its thing - I don't think you have a particularly heavy set facial bone structure. (Hard to tell off one blurry photo though! :D)
Budget for it if you have to, and if you don't need it, you've saved up for a really nice holiday!
As far as dental is concerned - if you've got holes in your teeth get them dealt with quickly before it becomes too expensive!
I think that you already look quite female and with several months on hormones you should look very feminine. Your nose is on the large side, but large noses aren't an exclusively male characteristic. I would get on hormones for at least a year before you make a final decision. I've seen some get FFS and look less attractive than they did before. Listen to people who are objective. I think people think that FFS is always better, but this is not the case. You are already very pretty.
Sure you will pass as a guy after you take T shots.. oh change your name it sounds feminine. FFS most FTMs never get that. The T will change yo and make you look male after a yr or so.
She's an mtf, amazon...
Quote from: sonopoly on March 26, 2012, 07:03:23 PM
She's an mtf, amazon...
Just had to quote the fail. Funny.
Anyway, Stephanie_b:
1. The picture has too low a quality for us to ever hope to tell you reliable advice.
2. Deciding on FFS before hormones is pointless. The effects HRT have on the face are vastly "random" (not quite random, but rather a genetic lottery), and no matter the starting point (except maybe in very extreme cases on both sides of the passing spectrum), it's hazardous to plan on FFS before seeing those.
3. And to begin with, FFS is not a good idea to be performed until about a year on HRT (or more), no matter the need, since tissue movements can still happen in the face and look weird with surgery.
Quote from: Amazon D on March 26, 2012, 06:38:05 PM
Sure you will pass as a guy after you take T shots.. oh change your name it sounds feminine. FFS most FTMs never get that. The T will change yo and make you look male after a yr or so.
Hahaha, I love you! Well thanks so much, but I am mtf like was said.
As has been mentioned, the photo is blury; was set on beauty shot on my phone. I haven't been able to get on this site much today...usually its not available on my phone.
I will be posting a better, clearer photo instead. I am not very photogenic though; I appear quite different in person than I do in the photos (I look better). :)
Quote from: sonopoly on March 26, 2012, 06:08:57 PM
I think that you already look quite female and with several months on hormones you should look very feminine. Your nose is on the large side, but large noses aren't an exclusively male characteristic. I would get on hormones for at least a year before you make a final decision. I've seen some get FFS and look less attractive than they did before. Listen to people who are objective. I think people think that FFS is always better, but this is not the case. You are already very pretty.
Awww, thank you very much! Also yes my nose is on the bigger side unfortunately. It looks a little smaller on profile shots, larger straight on.
Quote from: A on March 26, 2012, 07:35:51 PM
3. And to begin with, FFS is not a good idea to be performed until about a year on HRT (or more), no matter the need, since tissue movements can still happen in the face and look weird with surgery.
I'd go so far as to say no less than 2 years of HRT should be required before FFS. It takes quite a while for the face to round out completely. But A is pretty spot on with everything she said.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 26, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
I'd go so far as to say no less than 2 years of HRT should be required before FFS. It takes quite a while for the face to round out completely. But A is pretty spot on with everything she said.
I tend to agree with you and what a said. I probably will never come up with the money for ffs anyway. I was just curious if people think that my starting point is okay, or not so good.
Guess time will tell
Also unfortunately a fee days ago my phone fell out of my pocket, while I was jogging. Somehow I managed to stomp on it full force!
The lens has cracks in it now...will probably never take good shots again. :embarrassed:
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 26, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
I'd go so far as to say no less than 2 years of HRT should be required before FFS. It takes quite a while for the face to round out completely. But A is pretty spot on with everything she said.
I agree but :P
Your nose and chin will not change from HRT and if either of those is extra manly, I don't see any problem with addressing them earilier. I had just my nose done 6 months into HRT and have no regrets. I would agree though on "full boat" FFS, wait and see what HRT does.
Quote from: Amazon D on March 26, 2012, 06:38:05 PM
Sure you will pass as a guy after you take T shots.. oh change your name it sounds feminine. FFS most FTMs never get that. The T will change yo and make you look male after a yr or so.
Why would a FTM even ask about facial feminization surgery?
xD
You appear to have a female-like face already. With HRT that should do the trick.
Quote from: Stephanie_b on March 26, 2012, 12:08:15 PM
I'm stuck with an avatar pic because I don't know how to attach pics with my phone...
I think that ffs will be required to pass...I hope the hormones will help a lot!
No, you'll be perfectly fine after HRT.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi845.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab11%2Fxmandeh%2Ftumblr_lzaho2AEJj1qd34zl-1.gif&hash=425de3957d5c9f1fb6f9dc3d1a2afaea66d5d895)
Quote from: Stephe on March 27, 2012, 12:05:11 PM
I agree but :P
Your nose and chin will not change from HRT and if either of those is extra manly, I don't see any problem with addressing them earilier. I had just my nose done 6 months into HRT and have no regrets. I would agree though on "full boat" FFS, wait and see what HRT does.
Amen to this, people should know that there are certain feature on the face that HRT cannot change. Like if you have a strong masculine square jawline, there is no way HRT can take your jawbone away. Or let's just say you have butt chin like a lot of men have, I don't think HRT can change that into a pointed chin either so sooner or later you will need to seek the help of FFS
Stephe and Lexy711, yes, there is an influence when resorting to FFS before HRT has done its work. The fat AROUND the areas to be changed is the problem. That, and the muscles in the face that do change. They attach to bones, and if they change after the bones have been altered, it can yield unexpected results in time. And in some cases, just fat movement changes the way we see the same nose or chin entirely. It's still big, but it doesn't appear manly anymore.
And yes, HRT can actually do something for noses and even chins. A large part of the nose is cartillage, which can be affected (though definitely not as much as skin or fat) by HRT. On the chin, there is also a little layer of fat/thick skin that can be reconfigured, possibly rendering less visible any butt-chin effect; the muscles of the jaw nearby, too, can change. Anecdotal evidence of subjects under 25 have also (unscientifically) seen reports of bone changes.
Plus, I think most people getting their nose and chin worked on will probably have other bits to do.
For all these reasons and even more, probably, I still think that in every case, the more you wait, the better it is. And even if you're right, I think that whilst whether or not it is harmful not to wait is discutable, everyone agrees that waiting can in no way hurt, right?
Listen, in my time on Susan's I've seen that most mtf's have their looks drastically improve over a period of months to years with HRT. I mean before I thought that was the best that their faces were going to get but then, DAMN. You need to give it a couple years before deciding FFS, it might just be a waste of money. Plus your face looks fine now anyway.
Quote from: A on March 30, 2012, 05:33:08 PM
everyone agrees that waiting can in no way hurt, right?
For me my nose was probably the biggest thing that make me "get clocked", I am living full time and was sick of not passing because of this. I have always hated my nose. So yes it can hurt to wait. And how long should I be required to suffer with a big, manly nose living full time? A couple of more years in hopes I might end up just a ugly looking woman and want to get this fixed anyway?
Also please post a reliable resource than says HRT will change cartilage or chin bone structure. My doctor who has been prescribing HRT for 20 years said he has NEVER seen it change either of these, he was the one who suggested I go have my nose done. And he was right, it made a HUGE difference and I highly doubt HRT is going to make is somehow not look right later. "Anecdotal evidence" from non-listed sources don't give your POV any more credibility. No amount of HRT is going to turn up the end of your nose or change the angles etc to a female nose shape.
And also don't try to turn this around into a "People will get more done". I SPECIFICALLY STATED don't mess with anything other than your nose or chin until you have been on HRT for a couple of years.. Being honest the changes -I- have seen in many before and after HRT pictures were very subtle. I sure wouldn't wait in hopes, especially if your past 35, for HRT to magically fix everything. It's not going to.
Uhm, I meant strictly physically. Waiting can sure hurt your morale and all, but I'm sure you understood
I never claimed to have reliable sources; nothing but testimonies I read and saw. Those, I'll agree, are certainly not enough to prove that HRT is likely to do such things. However, it's enough for me, myself, to believe that no matter the odds, such changes are possible. Cartillage is alive and the cartillage of our ears, notably, grows all our lives. It would actually be extremely surprising if hormone rates in the blood during that growth had no effect whatsoever on the shape.
As for bones, I don't remember anything on older people; it was always about people below, say, 25, even 20; not sure. And since biological males theoretically grow until an average of 25 years of age, I find it logical that hormonal changes during that period would have an effect, however small. Plus, men tend to get heavier facial features as they age, way past that point. Who are we to say that there is absolutely no possiblity that a reverse process - again, however minor or rare - could happen with HRT?
I also never mentioned MAJOR changes to any of these. In almost all cases I saw, any change reported was minor.
Another thing to remember is that one of the most important points of my post was that changes that HRT causes on other parts of the face influence the way we see a big nose or a wide chin, for instance. It has been shown a lot in the picture threads here: people say "Your nose hasn't shrunk, but somehow, it looks so much more feminine now! I don't know what it is, but it's better!"
Finally, aren't you overreacting or something? I may be getting it wrong, but reading your post, I feel like you're shouting at me, looking for reasons to be angry. I kind of feel attacked. Did I hurt you?
Quote from: Stephe on March 30, 2012, 06:02:55 PM
For me my nose was probably the biggest thing that make me "get clocked", I am living full time and was sick of not passing because of this. I have always hated my nose. So yes it can hurt to wait. And how long should I be required to suffer with a big, manly nose living full time? A couple of more years in hopes I might end up just a ugly looking woman and want to get this fixed anyway?
Also please post a reliable resource than says HRT will change cartilage or chin bone structure. My doctor who has been prescribing HRT for 20 years said he has NEVER seen it change either of these, he was the one who suggested I go have my nose done. And he was right, it made a HUGE difference and I highly doubt HRT is going to make is somehow not look right later. "Anecdotal evidence" from non-listed sources don't give your POV any more credibility. No amount of HRT is going to turn up the end of your nose or change the angles etc to a female nose shape.
And also don't try to turn this around into a "People will get more done". I SPECIFICALLY STATED don't mess with anything other than your nose or chin until you have been on HRT for a couple of years.. Being honest the changes -I- have seen in many before and after HRT pictures were very subtle. I sure wouldn't wait in hopes, especially if your past 35, for HRT to magically fix everything. It's not going to.
I will just have to wait and seehow it goes, I will probly need a minimal amount of ffs, maybe not.
I'm not past the age of 35; I'm 33. One thing I know for sure is I have really good genetics for this, I am extremely lucky this way.
The last time my face already went through noticeabe changes for the better-after only 4 months. I hope that being a little older now doesn't mean that it won't work as well this time... ???
Quote from: Lexy711 on March 29, 2012, 10:38:42 PM
Amen to this, people should know that there are certain feature on the face that HRT cannot change. Like if you have a strong masculine square jawline, there is no way HRT can take your jawbone away. Or let's just say you have butt chin like a lot of men have, I don't think HRT can change that into a pointed chin either so sooner or later you will need to seek the help of FFS
I may have a mannly "but chin," but my jaw line isn't square at all. I have a good jaw line and my chin is more like Jennifer Aniston's.
There are lots of women out there that I have seen that dont have pointy chins, and are still beautiful.
One thing I don't want to do is change my chin very much actually...
Wtf I thought you were a teenager. o.O
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on March 30, 2012, 07:36:41 PM
Wtf I thought you were a teenager. o.O
I am really starting to like this place! :laugh:
*hugs*
Quote from: A on March 30, 2012, 06:50:09 PM
I may be getting it wrong, but reading your post, I feel like you're shouting at me, looking for reasons to be angry. I kind of feel attacked. Did I hurt you?
No but bad advice -can- hurt other people. Telling people HRT will make all these changes is nonsense and gives people false hopes. I do hate bad information being posted like it's based on factual information.
You missed the main point of my post ^^'. I was mainly talking about the surrounding changes.
Maybe just partial FFS, I think everyone could benefit from a little plastic surgery even if it's just a nose job or trach shave.
Quote from: Stephanie_b on March 30, 2012, 07:26:27 PM
I may have a mannly "but chin," but my jaw line isn't square at all. I have a good jaw line and my chin is more like Jennifer Aniston's.
There are lots of women out there that I have seen that dont have pointy chins, and are still beautiful.
One thing I don't want to do is change my chin very much actually...
My chin is like Jessica Simpson's, you can't see it in my avatar because it has been photoshopped a little bit, but that's how I want my chin to be like. It's quite amazing to see just a small fix like that can make my face looks so much more feminine. Well good for you that you have a good jawline, I don't. Mine is like Jennifer Aniston's. I don't know why my square jawline doesn't show up as bad in my avatar. And my nose is pretty big, I mean the nostrils so if I have money, I'd definitely get a nose job but it doesn't really bother me as much as my butt-chin and my square jawline, these two are a big give away to me. Thanks God my Adam's apple is literally invisible so I don't need a trachea shave.
If I'm going to get FFS, I'd definitely get the chin implant combine with jawline contouring so they look like Kim Kardashian's (She has such good bone structure so I'm kinda go for her look), and maybe a forehead contouring/lift as well lol. I don't think I wanna wait 2-3 years for HRT to do some small changes to my butt-chin and square jawline, so I'm just gonna seek FFS for some help so I can feel completely confident and happy about look. I know I'm pretty and all already, but I guess having these flaws fixed will give me a piece of mind. It's what I need. HRT can do other jobs, like make my skin softer and distribute fat to make my butt bigger lol
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KIetKHvkf14%2FT02MnKb02bI%2FAAAAAAAAAVg%2F6Rc10d1lLtY%2Fs1600%2Fkim_kardashian_beehive_updo499.jpg&hash=af6bdb06def82e28a273abedb945aec67f7c5211)
Quote from: Lexy711 on March 31, 2012, 03:58:06 AM
My chin is like Jessica Simpson's, you can't see it in my avatar because it has been photoshopped a little bit, but that's how I want my chin to be like. It's quite amazing to see just a small fix like that can make my face looks so much more feminine. Well good for you that you have a good jawline, I don't. Mine is like Jennifer Aniston's. I don't know why my square jawline doesn't show up as bad in my avatar. And my nose is pretty big, I mean the nostrils so if I have money, I'd definitely get a nose job but it doesn't really bother me as much as my butt-chin and my square jawline, these two are a big give away to me. Thanks God my Adam's apple is literally invisible so I don't need a trachea shave.
If I'm going to get FFS, I'd definitely get the chin implant combine with jawline contouring so they look like Kim Kardashian's (She has such good bone structure so I'm kinda go for her look), and maybe a forehead contouring/lift as well lol. I don't think I wanna wait 2-3 years for HRT to do some small changes to my butt-chin and square jawline, so I'm just gonna seek FFS for some help so I can feel completely confident and happy about look. I know I'm pretty and all already, but I guess having these flaws fixed will give me a piece of mind. It's what I need. HRT can do other jobs, like make my skin softer and distribute fat to make my butt bigger lol
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-KIetKHvkf14%2FT02MnKb02bI%2FAAAAAAAAAVg%2F6Rc10d1lLtY%2Fs1600%2Fkim_kardashian_beehive_updo499.jpg&hash=af6bdb06def82e28a273abedb945aec67f7c5211)
If that's you in your avatar, I wouldn't worry about ffs as being a necessity-you are already a very pretty girl who looks cis. For your peace of mind, I can understand why you would want it, and most people would probably like to improve their looks in some way if possible.
As fas as what I think I will want out of ffs (will have to give hrt some time first),
Is a slightly reduced chin size and only a little more pointed, and a nose job-I have a big honker! Lol.
With those changes I picture myself as being attractive, maybe even pretty but certainly not a beauty contest winner. ;D
Also, I looked again at your avatar, but could not see your butt chin for the life of me. Lol
I think your chin is perfect, I wish mine was more like yours! :P
Quote from: Stephanie_b on March 31, 2012, 07:26:40 AM
If that's you in your avatar, I wouldn't worry about ffs as being a necessity-you are already a very pretty girl who looks cis. For your peace of mind, I can understand why you would want it, and most people would probably like to improve their looks in some way if possible.
As fas as what I think I will want out of ffs (will have to give hrt some time first),
Is a slightly reduced chin size and only a little more pointed, and a nose job-I have a big honker! Lol.
With those changes I picture myself as being attractive, maybe even pretty but certainly not a beauty contest winner. ;D
Also, I looked again at your avatar, but could not see your butt chin for the life of me. Lol
I think your chin is perfect, I wish mine was more like yours! :P
Yup, the avatar is my pic. You can see more in the "You look fabulous darling" thread. Like I said, I know I'm pretty, sometime to the point that some people don't even believe that I'm a TS or worst they don't believe that I'm the girl in the pic. They think I'm a model. I was like really, come on. I mean I'm flattered but at the same time frustrated. Girl, I just told you that I photoshopped my chin in my avatar so of course you couldn't see my butt-chin. I'll have that chin after I get the FFS and I'd definitely feel so much more confident
Like right now, even though I'm very passable but I feel that my butt-chin can be such a give away and it's make my face kinda unproportional due to the square jawline. So honestly, even if HRT can fix those flaws in 2-3 years, I still don't have that kind of time to wait. I want them fixed ASAP so hopefully I can get the FFS like around summer or else I've to wait til Jan which I really don't want to but we'll see lol
Quote from: Lexy711 on March 31, 2012, 08:29:44 AM
Yup, the avatar is my pic. You can see more in the "You look fabulous darling" thread. Like I said, I know I'm pretty, sometime to the point that some people don't even believe that I'm a TS or worst they don't believe that I'm the girl in the pic. They think I'm a model. I was like really, come on. I mean I'm flattered but at the same time frustrated. Girl, I just told you that I photoshopped my chin in my avatar so of course you couldn't see my butt-chin. I'll have that chin after I get the FFS and I'd definitely feel so much more confident
Like right now, even though I'm very passable but I feel that my butt-chin can be such a give away and it's make my face kinda unproportional due to the square jawline. So honestly, even if HRT can fix those flaws in 2-3 years, I still don't have that kind of time to wait. I want them fixed ASAP so hopefully I can get the FFS like around summer or else I've to wait til Jan which I really don't want to but we'll see lol
Oops...you did say you photoshpped it. :embarrassed: Lol. I should have not only been born a girl, I should have been born blonde too. No offense to the blondes out there though!
;D
I just want to mention how bad an idea I think it is to compare yourselves and your desired looks to stars'. First, how we see them is how they want us to see them; optimal angles; optimal make-up; optimal hairstyle. Many of them have otherwise disadvantageous features that people even come to desire, only to find that outside a very strict visual environment, they are manly and undesirable.
You mustn't forget that often, female models' physical features are quite manly. Women that the fashion field find fabulous are actually not that fabulous; they are even amongst the least aesthetically advantaged, in my very own opinion. They are tall, have strong jaws and chins, even visible brow ridges, they have broad shoulders...
I know I'm over-generalising, but I just felt like saying this to everyone: even if your favourite actress or singer can rock a square, large jaw and broad shoulders, it doesn't mean you can.
Quote from: A on March 31, 2012, 10:59:07 AM
I just want to mention how bad an idea I think it is to compare yourselves and your desired looks to stars'. First, how we see them is how they want us to see them; optimal angles; optimal make-up; optimal hairstyle. Many of them have otherwise disadvantageous features that people even come to desire, only to find that outside a very strict visual environment, they are manly and undesirable.
You mustn't forget that often, female models' physical features are quite manly. Women that the fashion field find fabulous are actually not that fabulous; they are even amongst the least aesthetically advantaged, in my very own opinion. They are tall, have strong jaws and chins, even visible brow ridges, they have broad shoulders...
I know I'm over-generalising, but I just felt like saying this to everyone: even if your favourite actress or singer can rock a square, large jaw and broad shoulders, it doesn't mean you can.
Sweetie, Kim Kardashian might be a celebrity but she's not that smoking hot. When I said I'm going for her look meaning I want to have my chin and jawline like that. That's it. Plus I don't think she's that hotter than me either so she's not someone that I "desired". Thank you very much. There are thousands of women out there who have her chin and jawline, I mentioned her because she's popular so people get an idea of what I'm talking about
And amen to your last statement, when you are a genetic woman, even if you have a square jawline like Jennifer Aniston or Angelina Jolie, or a butt-chin like Jessica Simpson or Adele, there is nothing wrong with that and people still think that you are beautiful and gorgeous. But when you are a trans woman who has those masculine features, it's a whole different story. People notice those masculine features on your face and they would start asking questions or even talking sh*t. Genetic woman don't care if they ever get questioned about their butt-chin or square jawline because it doesn't matter what people say or think, at the end of the day they have the vajayjay to back everything up, we don't have that luxury. That's the reason why some of us want to get FFS to fix those masculine features because we want to look passable and feel feminine not only on the inside but the outside as well
Quote from: Lexy711 on April 01, 2012, 02:00:18 AM
And amen to your last statement, when you are a genetic woman, even if you have a square jawline like Jennifer Aniston or Angelina Jolie, or a butt-chin like Jessica Simpson or Adele, there is nothing wrong with that and people still think that you are beautiful and gorgeous. But when you are a trans woman who has those masculine features, it's a whole different story. People notice those masculine features on your face and they would start asking questions or even talking sh*t. Genetic woman don't care if they ever get questioned about their butt-chin or square jawline because it doesn't matter what people say or think, at the end of the day they have the vajayjay to back everything up, we don't have that luxury. That's the reason why some of us want to get FFS to fix those masculine features because we want to look passable and feel feminine not only on the inside but the outside as well
Amen to all that. We as transwomen are at a disadvantage with gentic women so FFS is truly a lifesaver. I think every t-girl would benefit from at least a little plastic surgery. The first thing people look at is your face and that's how they gender you as male or female, your face and then your voice are the two biggest indicators of your gender.
Quote from: Bird on March 26, 2012, 12:17:52 PM
Hi Steph!
HRT will change you a lot. Though I understand the desire to pass ASAP, it is best to let HRT work, let your hair grown and learn how to dress for your body type. Being a woman is very challenging.
HRT changes us a lot. I remember I desired to get full FFS before, but these days, I wonder if I will do any FFS at all.
HRT is not some magic potion that will drastically change someone. I've not changed much since I started on HRT 15 years ago. HRT isn't going to physically change your bone structure and the changes are very limited. I get tired of people hyping up HRT like it was a miracle cure or something!
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 01, 2012, 07:15:47 PM
HRT is not some magic potion that will drastically change someone. I've not changed much since I started on HRT 15 years ago. HRT isn't going to physically change your bone structure and the changes are very limited. I get tired of people hyping up HRT like it was a miracle cure or something!
+1 for this.
I have seen many before HRT and like 2 years after comarisons and on many I see almost no real difference to face structure. It can make some subtle changes to your cheeks but the pics that do look different: the pre hrt shot will be guy hair, no makeup, serious expression etc and second post-HRT shot will be with very fem long hair, makeup and of course a smile. Now it does make your skin smoother which helps and skin all over my body also feels smoother/softer. Part of that is likely due to better skin care and using lotion too.
But back to the topic at hand, as far as going from needing a nose or chin work and not because of HRT, I'm not going for that one :P
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 01, 2012, 07:15:47 PM
HRT is not some magic potion that will drastically change someone. I've not changed much since I started on HRT 15 years ago. HRT isn't going to physically change your bone structure and the changes are very limited. I get tired of people hyping up HRT like it was a miracle cure or something!
True, it is no miracle cure. I do believe that results are nowhere near the same for everyone though. Genetics play a part along with being healthy, age and bone structure. Some really young people have great results, some do not. The same goes for those who are older than myself.
I may be wrong, but if someone has soft features and very good genetics (tons of estrogen receptors), shouldn't hrt help soften those features even more?
I would certainly agree that if someone who has genes that are less than ideal, and has more masculine features-hrt may not be enough to feminize to the degree desired.
Just my 2©
Anyone have other ideas on this?
Quote from: Stephanie_b on April 01, 2012, 08:09:14 PM
I would certainly agree that if someone who has genes that are less than ideal, and has more masculine features-hrt may not be enough to feminize to the degree desired.
Anyone have other ideas on this?
The important thing that you have put down here is
"feminize to the degree desired". The effects of HRT are variable and there's no telling exactly how one will end up after a long period on HRT.
To a certain extent, I feel as though we tend to compare ourselves harshly against the feminine ideal, as we try and undo what nature has done to us. There are plenty of cis females out there with somewhat masculine features, but don't go off seeking surgery to correct said features.
We, mtfs on the other hand, having started off male in the first place, often make it a goal to eradicate as many hints of masculinity that we possibly can as we feel much more self conscious about our presentation to the world. I often see some girls who look gorgeous without ffs, but they still end up going for it anyway, as they do not feel right without removing the features that may be considered male from their face.
At the end of the day though, I think it boils down to whether or not you feel comfortable in your own skin.
Quote from: luna nyan on April 02, 2012, 06:25:07 AM
The important thing that you have put down here is "feminize to the degree desired". The effects of HRT are variable and there's no telling exactly how one will end up after a long period on HRT.
To a certain extent, I feel as though we tend to compare ourselves harshly against the feminine ideal, as we try and undo what nature has done to us. There are plenty of cis females out there with somewhat masculine features, but don't go off seeking surgery to correct said features.
We, mtfs on the other hand, having started off male in the first place, often make it a goal to eradicate as many hints of masculinity that we possibly can as we feel much more self conscious about our presentation to the world. I often see some girls who look gorgeous without ffs, but they still end up going for it anyway, as they do not feel right without removing the features that may be considered male from their face.
At the end of the day though, I think it boils down to whether or not you feel comfortable in your own skin.
Yes, I actually agree 100%. I think that was a very good reply!
Even if one gets ffs, male characteristics will still be there. I don't think it's the ultimate panacea.
Truth is, biological males and biological females have different morphological structures in the skeleton and ffs merely changes the appearance of that. But to a trained eye, you will still register "male" to some people.
In my opinion, if we're still talking about just the face here, you'd need a bad surgeon or unsufficient surgery, a wrong decision by the patient, a really extreme case of masculinity or super uneffective HRT to have that. That, or the world's most trained expert in detecting aesthetical surgery.
Quote from: A on April 02, 2012, 03:34:08 PM
In my opinion, if we're still talking about just the face here, you'd need a bad surgeon or unsufficient surgery, a wrong decision by the patient, a really extreme case of masculinity or super uneffective HRT to have that. That, or the world's most trained expert in detecting aesthetical surgery.
Where are you purchasing your rose colored glasses? I want to add them to my collection. I have a pair of heart Lolita glasses now..totally fab. But they don't allow me to see the world through those swell rose colored glasses.
Quote from: Elasmotraxx on April 02, 2012, 03:36:04 PM
Where are you purchasing your rose colored glasses?
-1
How about not worsening the bad atmosphere in this topic with a fight?
from what i have seen with others. diet and Hrt can change person alot. could make you a hot mamma. or you could do like i did. FFS then Hrt and SRS all within 16 months of each other. be warned though all that surgery makes you a little tired. i even added in a boob job.
Quote from: Elasmotraxx on April 02, 2012, 02:16:06 PM
Even if one gets ffs, male characteristics will still be there. I don't think it's the ultimate panacea.
Really? Lol I don't think so many people would be getting expensive FFS then if even after surgery male features are still there. I think your underestimating the power of plastic surgery hun. I don't think it's the ultimate panacea either, but with enough surgery even the most masculine of faces can be feminized considerably.
I think most mtf's who have FFS and learn how to apply makeup properly shouldn't have any trouble passing their face off as female. :)
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 02, 2012, 11:56:31 PM
I think your underestimating the power of plastic surgery hun.
Surgery can't fix a long face, or widen close-set eyes. Both of these features especially together could be indicators as I've seen a lot of transgirls unable to pass because of them. With too much surgery you also risk looking "done" which combined with a masculine body (broad shoulders, tall), will lead people to question your biological gender.
I think that everyone is forgetting that many cis-females are not perfect beauties, nor is there a 'tick list' of 'must have' features needed to pass.
B.
Quote from: 8888 on April 03, 2012, 06:39:55 AM
Surgery can't fix a long face, or widen close-set eyes. Both of these features especially together could be indicators as I've seen a lot of transgirls unable to pass because of them. With too much surgery you also risk looking "done" which combined with a masculine body (broad shoulders, tall), will lead people to question your biological gender.
My ex has a long face and small close set eyes, I guess she doesn't pass? O.o
When I read things like this, what I see is that some people assume the world is that interested in us to study us this closely. It's normal to be self conscious, especially at first but at some point we have to realize we just are not that important to other people to where they study us this closely. Most people will just give us a casual glance and go about there day. Too many trans women focus on visually passing. I still say most of passing is NOT being self conscious, carry yourself with assurance and look -reasonably close-.
Get any very obvious things fixed, work at dressing so not to emphasize any obvious flaws and get on with your life.
Quote from: 8888 on April 03, 2012, 06:39:55 AM
Surgery can't fix a long face, or widen close-set eyes.
Just wondering, do you think my face passes?
I mean I sport a long face and close set eyes.
Or do I get the automatic
"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" because of it?
*edit*(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDe2xb.jpg&hash=7426768a78cfbc119f33ce11117698a4815a9d88)
had to.
I know this trans girl with a moon face and passes all the time.
Quote from: JoeyD on April 03, 2012, 09:34:39 AM
Just wondering, do you think my face passes?
I mean I sport a long face and close set eyes.
You do not have close set eyes.
Quote from: JoeyD on April 03, 2012, 09:34:39 AM
"YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"
Oh... wait - I know this one.... it is ...... Gandalf, on the bridge of Khazad-dum.
http://youtu.be/V4UfAL9f74I
Of course you pass..... unless you have Scharznegger's body and Brian Blessed's voice, which I rather doubt....
B.
I understand what your saying 8888 but as Stephe pointed out people don't go around looking for transsexuals. Most people wouldn't know the difference and would probably just think your an ugly woman.
Your right though about having too much surgery makes you look plastic but would you rather look super masculine like Arnold Schwarzenegger or would you rather look like a plastic female? :D