Allo.
In my present life, I find that I'm 'afraid' of cis people. What I mean by that is that, generally, I find difficulty in talking to them - especially cis girls my age. Guys I don't find I want to talk to very often... so I'm unsure if it's easier for me to talk with them.
I imagine other people experience something similar here. The reason for it was probably how I grew up: Pretty alone, feeling judged by everyone, making friends only with loners and suiciders, that sort of thing.
... these days, I'm amazing at making friends with trans people. I feel that I can trust them, and I don't feel judgement from their eyes... and around them, I'm extremely outgoing and extroverted.
But when it comes to cis people, I can only imagine how they are thinking of me - how they are dissecting me in their minds. I don't say much to them - and not purely out of shyness. I think that if I could think of any words to say, I would be able to say them. But alas, I cannot.
My solution to the problem has thus far been to let them initiate if I'm to have a cis friend. If I don't get any friends like this I would be happy - or at least, this was the case until recently.
I find myself sorely disappointed in my fear of cis people. 'Just getting out there and doing it' isn't really something I'm willing to do - I think it would be easiest if I could put myself into a situation where I would be strongly encouraged to interact; preferably one where the people are likely to be open-minded.
I pass well, but somehow... I still feel their eyes burrowing into my skull a lot of the time. This could be merely my insecurity, and my own self-esteem and self-image.... but I prefer to think that it also involves my history.
Any suggestions on how to deal with it? If I'm justified or not?
Thanks for reading. ;D
I don't know about being afraid of cispeople specifically, but I can relate to being afraid of people.
For me, I'm afraid of people who claim to be "different" because they are the cruelest people I have ever met. When I talk to them, I keep anticipating when they are going to hurt me. I keep thinking about what they must be thinking about me. I know it's paranoid and weak and I hate myself for it, but I can't ignore the fact that it has happened so many times before.
The only solution I have heard so far is to just put yourself out there. To practice ignoring it. To talk to people despite it.
I'm not. I'm actually a bit more comfortable around cis people than I am trans. I don't feel like I'm being compared to anyone when I'm around cis people either, but I do around many trans people I've been around. Plus, any conversation is pretty much not going to be anything trans related and I kind of like that.
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on April 06, 2012, 11:20:32 PM
Any suggestions on how to deal with it? If I'm justified or not?
I think it boils down to confidence. I saw somewhere a poster who wrote, "...don't let a few sour apples be representative of the whole barrel."
Don't be owned by your fears.
(Except maybe spiders. Good things to avoid.)
Quote from: Jamie D on April 07, 2012, 12:07:15 AM
I think it boils down to confidence. I saw somewhere a poster who wrote, "...don't let a few sour apples be representative of the whole barrel."
Don't be owned by your fears.
Definitely. I kind of forgot to offer my thoughts on what she could do. I know that staying away from situations with them does not help as your mind can come up with all sorts of stuff. Its best to just put yourself out there and after a bit, it should get better as you gain confidence and stop being so anxious.
The best thing I ever did for it was to get a job working with the public.
Thanks for the responses...
@Edge: I'm pretty paranoid, yes. :) Thanks for understanding... hope that if I find something that works, that it might help you too.
@Jamie D: My rebuttal might be that the majority of apples I have met have been sour - the sweet portion of my barrel is the minority. However, when they are sweet... they are exceptionally good.
... but yes. I still seek those super-yummy ones. :)
@Jaime: I did say in my post that I was looking for alternatives to 'just doing it'. I realize that it's a silly request - I doubt I'll find any alternative suggestions... a job working with the public is definitely what I was looking for, suggestion-wise. There are many different jobs like this though - I still have yet to go to college (still pretty young) so any job like that I could get would be, like past jobs, more like processing people, treating them with formalities and small talk and the like. It was mostly good, but it was hardly anything like real socializing.
Thanks again ^.^
Have you considered that you might have social anxiety disorder? Lots of people suffer from social anxiety and never seek treatment out of fear or even think it will fix it's self. Maybe talking to therapist who deals with anxiety issues would be helpful, that and maybe some medications for anxiety & depression would help.
The store I work at is in a small community, but it also serves an area with only one road in and out other than a long ferry ride, so I see a lot of people, most of them regular and have actually gotten to make some friends through work. I've gotten to be more of a part of the community and with so many people knowing everyone else, there is more than just small talk and formalities. Honestly, I don't think I would have done so well in a larger city as compared to here.
You do have to learn how to make people comfortable around you though and I'm not sure how to explain that so well.
And yes, there is some risk of being treated like crap, I dealt with that too. But those have learned that they aren't going to gain anything by it and actually looked like straight up ->-bleeped-<-s in front of others as well. The main thing it took on my part was a good attitude, politeness and trying not to react negatively to them.
but yeah, if you want things to change, you have to just do it and take the chances.
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 07, 2012, 01:12:11 AM
Have you considered that you might have social anxiety disorder? Lots of people suffer from social anxiety and never seek treatment out of fear or even think it will fix it's self. Maybe talking to therapist who deals with anxiety issues would be helpful, that and maybe some medications for anxiety & depression would help.
This is me. When I was growing up, everyone just thought I was shy. As it turns out, I have social anxiety. I have difficulty interacting with other even if I know them. I have a hard time making phone calls. Sometimes I have to really work myself up before I can dial. Sometimes even hitting send on an email is difficult. I definitely recommend talking with a therapist to figure out what is going on because if it is social anxiety it will not go away on its own.
Actually, posting on Susan's is a little like therapy for me in this respect. It helps that there are so many wonderful people here; as scary as it is for me to participate sometimes, I've never felt unwelcome or outcast.
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 07, 2012, 01:12:11 AM
Have you considered that you might have social anxiety disorder? Lots of people suffer from social anxiety and never seek treatment out of fear or even think it will fix it's self. Maybe talking to therapist who deals with anxiety issues would be helpful, that and maybe some medications for anxiety & depression would help.
I have thought about it, but haven't quite pictures it as likely. I'm extroverted around most trans people these days - if I had SAD, I would be anxious around everyone I think... not just cis people.
Anxiety/depression I consider very likely. I have heard many terrible things about anti-depressants though.
I'm seeing someone next week about this stuff... hopefully she'll be useful, unlike any of the other doctors in the area. My psych is as affective as trying to do Kendo with a wet noodle.
@Jaime: I'll see if I can find some sort of group. I don't live in a small enough community to have regular customers that actually talk to service... sounds like a nice place. :)
I was pretty good. Customers didn't get to me... it was the co-workers that made me cry for hours. :p
@ Dana: I definitely know the phone thing, in addition to some of the other stuff. Except, I'm usually good at getting along with people I've known...
@ Dana - Yeah me too, i've been on a low dose of Celexa for my anxiety & depression and it does help alot. The first week or two when your body is adjusting to the meds is the only bad part.
I had really bad insomnia from the meds. :icon_eek:
I think its great that you're aware you have this issue and want to do something to fix it. Based on those two things alone I'm willing to bet that you'll have it taken care of in the near future :)
Thanks for the faith.
I'll have to hope that it's well-placed... I'm coming up with ideas. ;D
I'm not bigoted against normal people. I afraid of all people :angel:
I don't know why you mention cis people this is merely regular S.A.D. and lack of confidence.
For me it's the other way around. I only have cis friends I don't see myself befriending other trans because it's like "hey you have cancer and I have cancer OMG let's hang out together!" I just don't hang out in LGBT spaces for the most part and I'm not comfortable around unpassable trans women. So I guess you could say that I'm a transphobic trans <.<
Quote from: Seyranna on April 13, 2012, 06:50:01 AM
For me it's the other way around. I only have cis friends I don't see myself befriending other trans because it's like "hey you have cancer and I have cancer OMG let's hang out together!"
Agreed. At least in real life, anyway.
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 07, 2012, 01:31:13 AM
@ Dana - Yeah me too, i've been on a low dose of Celexa for my anxiety & depression and it does help alot. The first week or two when your body is adjusting to the meds is the only bad part.
I had really bad insomnia from the meds. :icon_eek:
I'm on Wellbutrin myself. Boy, I can sure tell when I miss a day. :(
Sorry for poking my nose in here, but there are a few things I've picked up from what you've talked about.
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on April 07, 2012, 01:27:05 AM
I have thought about it, but haven't quite pictures it as likely. I'm extroverted around most trans people these days - if I had SAD, I would be anxious around everyone I think... not just cis people.
I think this is more likely the case. I'm inclined to say that it's not social anxiety, in the traditional sense. Mainly because only selective portions of society make you anxious, while others give you no issues whatsoever.
I think it's more that the 'cis' part is more prevalent in your mind than the 'people' part. That you've associated that tag with something, something which causes you to have these feelings. And it's something which your mind picks up on immediately upon meeting someone, which in turn leads to a defense mechanism that you created based on your past eperiences. Namely: fear. And fear can lead to all sorts of things. For example your body language, and the way you are with those people because of this... it can be a symbiotic relationship of a sort, because folks often pick up on the slightest little cues that the person themselves aren't even aware they're doing. Like... hmm... intentionally closing yourself off, perhaps, or seeming withdrawn because you're afraid. Generally not being the bubbly, sparkling personality that you know is there. And that in turn may affect how people react, which may reinforce the way you feel, and it becomes a cycle.
The reason it's different with trans people is because you feel at ease, you feel free to express yourself and be yourself, and because of this, the reactions you get are more open, maybe warmer, you know? Because just as you feel at ease with trans folks, you make it possible for them to feel at ease with you. Often the other party in an encounter may have their own feelings of anxiousness. So any encounter with another person becomes a dynamic thing, playing out as a two-way process with both taking cues from the way the other is behaving and expressing themselves.
In order to get past this, I think that maybe it's a good idea to re-assess if the defense mechanism which causes you to feel fear is necessary anymore, by understanding where it came from, the circumstances at the time which first led to this, and seeing if those circumstances still apply to you. Hopefully this is something you'll be able to work through with the person you're going to see. Often, a change in perspective and a re-evaluation of your feelings from a different time in your life is a good start to making progress in dealing with it. The mind often falls back on tried and tested methods of protecting itself from hurt, even if those methods are outdated. Because it doesn't know any better.
I probably shouldn't say too much more because it's not really appropriate to base something like this on a few forum posts. I really hope that you're able to work through this, hon, and that when you do talk to someone who can get to know you better and 'get inside your head', as it were, that you find a way between you to resolve the way you feel. *big hug*
That all seems about right...
About the assessment part, though, I can't really say that I'm sure I could even make the call as to whether I need to defend myself anymore or not. My experiences with people had not been positive the majority of the time while I was growing up... and the transitional phase between male and female only saw a little more negativity, in regards to social relations.
I would not blame that negativity on trans stuff, either. As far as I know I did a very good job of blending in as a male throughout most of my school years - interestingly, the ones where I had the least trouble were the ones where I was being myself.
So... I have very little context to base a new judgement on. It comes down to needing to meet new people, in the end, in order to convince myself that I no longer have to be on the defensive. I've met many, many good people, and so I'm actually pretty okay with relating to older (30+) individuals - I have only rarely been treated poorly by that crowd. My problem is mostly relating to people within and around my age group, as I tend to get along with this category of people very rarely.
I have a new tool or two, since I first posted this topic, to deal with the issue. One being a lovely dream I had this morning... one that I'm very sad that I had to leave! :P A large part of what's at play is my security, and generally how I feel about myself. A large part of the fear is fear of judgement - not for being trans, as I'm very confident in my passability - but just general judgement of how I act, dress, sound, etc.
That fear is pretty long-standing, and at one point it was very justified. It may still be... but I don't know just yet.
Thank-you Sephirah. Very much. ^.^
Quote from: Seyranna on April 13, 2012, 06:50:01 AM
For me it's the other way around. I only have cis friends I don't see myself befriending other trans because it's like "hey you have cancer and I have cancer OMG let's hang out together!" I just don't hang out in LGBT spaces for the most part and I'm not comfortable around unpassable trans women. So I guess you could say that I'm a transphobic trans <.<
Lol I'm the same way! :D
@Sephirah I have to disagree, SAD is not confined to being anxious around all people, people with SAD can have more anxiety issues around certain individuals or certain groups of people or even certain numbers of people. I'm not a doctor but it's obvious that Kelly has some kind of anxiety issues wether it's SAD or just general anxiety.
Maybe so. But whatever the cause, anxiety can be dealt with. :)
Just to throw another question out there. Kelly, do you suppose that the reason you find it hard to relate to people of your own age group could have anything to do with a perception, either conscious or subconscious, that they somehow experienced life differently to you while growing up, and that maybe you're missing some key experience, whatever it may be, that would enable you to feel any sort of commonality with them?
It would definitely include that. I'm not sure to what extent their differing experiences while growing up affect me... but I believe that it plays a part. It might be more subconscious than anything else, I suppose - while I don't actively see it hinder my relation to cis girls my age, I am quite troubled by it when I think about it. When I think about it, I feel a space between me and them - as if they are far away, and better than me.
Perhaps it plays a bigger part than I had imagined.
@ MacKenzie: My 'anxiety' is very selective if you're right. If I were shy around most people, and just a lot more shy around others... I would probably agree. However, I can be quite the extrovert when I'm dealing with other TS, and with a few cis.
:)
Quote from: Seyranna on April 13, 2012, 06:50:01 AM
I don't know why you mention cis people this is merely regular S.A.D. and lack of confidence.
For me it's the other way around. I only have cis friends I don't see myself befriending other trans because it's like "hey you have cancer and I have cancer OMG let's hang out together!" I just don't hang out in LGBT spaces for the most part and I'm not comfortable around unpassable trans women. So I guess you could say that I'm a transphobic trans <.<
Unpassable trans women should not make you uncomfortable. I suspect this is because if someone sees you with an 'unpassable' trans woman they may look closer at your features and realise you were born male? Perhaps it is your own confidence that needs a boost?
The only people who make me uncomfortable are bullies and ignorant people. I like diversity and if I had issues of being uncomfortable around certain groups I would mix with them more in an attempt to try and correct my issues. Btw there are so so many trans woman who talk about being in stealth and passing yet they don't, it's a delusion. That's sad (the way people must conform to what others want) but not a reason to avoid people, many people portray an image and believe it very much, it helps them get on with life.
I've never felt this way and have zero trans friends. I know a few trans people but they just didn't seem to be people I really wanted to be friends or hang out with. Most of them seem to be obsessed with being trans :P I honestly don't care if people understand me as far as why I am trans.
I agree with the poster who relates this to "hey you have cancer and I have cancer OMG let's hang out together!". It's not that I am uncomfortable around other trans people, just never met one I had a lot in common with other than we are both trans. I'm not stealth so it's not about that either.. It's just being trans isn't a reason to base a friendship on.
Quote from: amberrain on April 17, 2012, 02:24:47 AM
I like diversity and if I had issues of being uncomfortable around certain groups I would mix with them more in an attempt to try and correct my issues.
Then again I find "groups of trans women" mostly obnoxious and most of the time focus either on how bad being trans sucks or some other trans related issues. Being trans is a very back burner issue for me now and I don't feel I need to hang out with obnoxious, negative people to "correct my issues" with them.
Unpassing (unpassable is a word filled with dread) trans women are understandable to be uncomfortable around. At times, they can act very masculinely, and most of the time their voice is very male, and often this is without feminine speech mannerisms.
These traits, when put together with potentially going full-time/part-time, can be uncomfortable to deal with as when you're around them, they will be a centre of attention, which by extention puts you under a spotlight.
Alternatively, their masculine-at-times presentation could be uncomfortable by itself, even if you are in a safe environment. Sometimes you have to wonder if they really are women with how they act and speak... and while they might claim it to be an act, they have a tendancy to "act" even when they don't have to.
I think being uncomfortable with non-passing trans women is a bit counterproductive, and I'm glad that I can be comfortable around most of them... but it's totally understandable why someone would not be, and there doesn't have to be much or any other psychological reason behind it.
:-\
In my experience, trans women are usually pretty cool. Trans-related discussion is the minority of things as far as I have seen - I suppose I'm just lucky for that, and for the fact that so far, we have all tended to be nerds. Plenty of stuff to have in common...
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on April 17, 2012, 01:18:46 AM
When I think about it, I feel a space between me and them - as if they are far away, and better than me.
Sorry for the late reply, but this certainly illuminates a few things.
Maybe you're experiencing a sort of perfomance anxiety, hon. Like... hmm... you feel you have to somehow live up to cis girls of your own age group's expectations or something, or somehow 'fit in' with them, and that makes you hyper-aware of yourself when you speak to them, therefore stifling any sort of natural, free-flowing interaction as you constantly internally evaluate yourself in relation to this.
"Was that the right thing to say?"
"Can they relate to what I just said?"
"What if my perception of <this> idea is different to theirs? What will they think?"
Which in turn leads to a certain awkwardness, or hesitance, which just heightens the anxiety.
I am curious though, about what you said with regard to being better than you. Is that something that
you feel yourself, or that you believe
they feel?
That sounds pretty much perfectly accurate, Sephirah :)
As to the better-than-me thing... yeah, most of that is what based on how I feel. I don't really see them as being better than me, but that's what it feels like at times. And a lot of the time, I'm sure they'd feel superior to me if they knew about me being trans. When people have known, that's the feeling I got a lot of the time...
... which tends to put me on the defensive. My biggest flaw is that I get defensive so easily.
^.^
It's not a flaw, hon. No doubt you have reasons for it, and it's saved you from a lot of pain in the past.
But it is something that can be worked on.
If I can be frank, I think that a lot of the problem comes from an assumption that cis people are going to be scrutinising you as closely as you scrutinise yourself. I don't think you're alone with this, either, I think it's a problem that a lot of trans folks face. Your perspective is too internal. When you're in a situation where you talk to cis people, particularly girls of your own age, you're busy concentrating on what you feel you should be doing rather than just doing it, you know? And perhaps this comes from a deeper, subconscious idea that you have to somehow be like the people you're talking to.
The only thing I can really say, hon, is that in future conversations maybe try to remember that you don't have to try to be a woman. You already are one. That you had different life experiences doesn't lessen this fact one bit. And the girls of your own age will have had experiences in their lives which differed considerably from you and every other girl your age. Your differences are what make you unique, and interesting, and valuable. Women come in all shapes, sizes and colours. Each is as unique as a snowflake. Cookie cutters are only good for cutting cookies, hence the name. :P
And also, cis girls have just as many insecurities as you, some a whole lot more. We all have our secrets and things we don't want others to know. Heck for all you know, the person you're talking to could be thinking the exact same thing you are, and wondering if you're watching every thing they do, and feel that you're better than them, for whatever reason. That sort of thing isn't restricted to being trans. One girl I know, she had a miscarriage and every time she spoke her eyes were darting around and she was really quiet, hesitant, looking to see if anyone could 'tell', because her parents gave her a really hard time over it, made her feel like crap etc. I won't go into anymore detail sufficed to say that she is actually one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and it was only the emotional baggage that prevented her from expressing that, her own idea that somehow everyone would notice something about her.
The truth of it is that most people are more interested in what someone's got to say than the background of the person who's saying it. Especially if you've only just met.
As you've said, you're confident in your passability, so you just need to stop thinking about it, and do it. :)
I was at an event with a lot of trans folk in attendance with a healthy mix of LGBs. I was trying to chat with folks after the event, and I recall this one trans man in particular who I only got to chat with very briefly. I got the impression that maybe he thought I was trans and it gradually dawned on him that I (probably) wasn't and he seemed to quickly lose interest in talking with me.
I'm well aware that this could all be in my head, and in fact probably is. So I'm really just expressing that it felt that way to me. I don't feel superior to trans guys. I'm a little embarrassed to admit that part (but only part) of my motivation for wanting to chat with him was because I found him attractive. (Non-reciprocated feelings of attraction don't contribute much to delusions of superiority) That's why I think it's probably just in my head, blaming it on being cis, kind of like when a str8 guy gets turned down by a woman he's flirting with and for the sake of his pride he may convince himself "she must be a lesbian!" ::)
Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2012, 11:36:01 PM
It's not a flaw, hon. No doubt you have reasons for it, and it's saved you from a lot of pain in the past.
But it is something that can be worked on.
...
As you've said, you're confident in your passability, so you just need to stop thinking about it, and do it. :)
For me, the issue has been present for ages, and I might say was even stronger back in school... except I didn't have any Ts in my life, so it just felt like I was universally disliked. I did like what you said, though, as here:
QuoteAnd perhaps this comes from a deeper, subconscious idea that you have to somehow be like the people you're talking to.
That's pretty correct. I don't think the issue has a whole lot to do with me being trans, although that is a part of it, so much as it just has to do with my experiences as a whole. I've always tried to be like the person I'm talking to for the sake of getting along - sometimes to the point of contradicting myself, as I would say one thing to one person, and another to another person because of this.
The trans thing makes it a little bigger, I'd suppose.
I might guess at one thing... that, perhaps, I still carry some leftovers from school. I'm probably still searching for a personality flaw that I can blame for being the reason I was an outcast then (and now).
I was never sure what it was about me that appeared to repel people, and I have yet to do more than guess at it. This mystery, at the time, would have been responsible for me trying to become like whoever I was talking to in order to relate better, as being myself was quite obviously not good enough.
And I imagine it's that same feeling that persists. It was blurred slightly by finding other Ts to befriend... I was and am myself around them, and for the most part I would say I'm fairly liked as a person when I'm not causing drama (which is unfortunate, as I find drama to be quite fun). I only do that occasionally, in any case... However, it's probable that I have people talking behind my back about me, and it's probable that I'm not liked nearly as much as I would think I am. I am aware that it goes on - to what extent I can only guess at.
So that's why I'm searching, I suppose. I still think there's something about me that people don't like - it's just a personality issue, more than a trans one. It just happens to be that trans people have been more accepting of me, which isn't really all that surprising.
My best guesses would be either my reckless lack of awareness toward what the person I'm talking to is feeling, or the fact that I speak my mind, thinking only a little about how what I will say will affect the other person. If I bother them, I might not pick up on it half the time, and if I do notice, I don't usually understand
why they're bothered, as all I'm doing is being honest - and not brutally so.
Just thinkin' aloud. Writing one's thoughts down is much better than talking about them, as you can order and organize them, and write as slowly as you like so that you can think about every word. :)
I will admit I am frightened of Cis-people to a slight extent.
It's not an innate thing but rather I'm frightened that if they find out they might persecute or attack me for begin a transsexual rather than anything else. It's happened before and prior to when I was passable I would get laughed at called names and intimidated. I don't wish to return to that situation. While I don't know exactly how fallible this defence is I still consider it to be my best defence.
I'm comfortable interacting with the public. This is something I enjoy because, in a sense, I'm educating them.
I have not started HRT quite yet, but I'm afraid of getting close to a lot of cis people. I always feel like crap when other girls look at me. I always feel like they're saying "Ha! We're girls and you aren't!"
Feels bad. :(