How accepted or not accepted are non-binary people?
For some reason, the few people I told (online people excluded) seem to think I chose genderfluid for political reasons which I am %100 against. How do I explain that I really am genderfluid and it's not some game?
I think in theory non-binary people are pretty well accepted, but in practice a lot of people don't take the identity/spectrum seriously. It's certainly hard to figure out pronouns.
I think it just takes time for people to really take you seriously as non-binary. A big part of it his expressing androgyne for a long period of time. Of course some can be non-binary without presenting as such, but people don't typically take such a claim seriously unless they see the person presenting accordingly. Keep in mind this is a culture with very sharp divides between what constitutes male and female with little gray area, and it is easy for people to disregard someone who falls in the middle as not really being that way.
Quote from: Anthropos on April 21, 2012, 08:34:03 PM
I think it just takes time for people to really take you seriously as non-binary. A big part of it his expressing androgyne for a long period of time. Of course some can be non-binary without presenting as such, but people don't typically take such a claim seriously unless they see the person presenting accordingly. Keep in mind this is a culture with very sharp divides between what constitutes male and female with little gray area, and it is easy for people to disregard someone who falls in the middle as not really being that way.
ideally id prefer to look 100 percent feminine without breasts or at least a very flat chest with a feminine bone structure/ small shoulders wide hips etc ( not going to happen even if i took hormones , too late )
im not really sure if that makes me an androgyne though in terms of what i desire to be physically , but regardless i am mentally an androgyne
What you desire for yourself physically is definitely a large part of being androgyne. But the most important part is when you think of yourself as "I" what if any gender do you see yourself as? Do you (like me) not see yourself as any gender? You're and androgyne. If you see yourself as sometimes male, sometimes female, you're also an androgyne. Being an androgyne is, purely and simply, not falling neatly into the binary society has made for us to a significant degree. Presentation is simply accessory to this basic character trait.
Quote from: Edge on April 21, 2012, 08:16:24 PM
How accepted or not accepted are non-binary people?
For some reason, the few people I told (online people excluded) seem to think I chose genderfluid for political reasons which I am %100 against. How do I explain that I really am genderfluid and it's not some game?
In my case, I am what I am. Politically, I'm a "republitarian," so that has no bearing on my genders.
In my experience not well accepted at all... IF wearing a sign "I'm non- binary".
(A lot of people would think it's some computer problem... you got – a virus?)
Now say, presenting like a guy, mustachio, and wearing a dress might do, in place of that sign though.
Biker leathers with a pink tutu, a full beard and wearing lipstick... seen that... some acceptance issues there to be sure.
But seriously, I'm XY, have a vj, boobs, and am a Monarchist... now... ... none of any of that is immediately apparent (hardly my boobs)... so?
If you don't advertise your being non-binary, I guess there be little acceptance issues.
In fact I have never knowingly met any real 'non-binary' in all my life – yet.
So... not a problem, or?
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 23, 2012, 11:54:06 AM
In my experience not well accepted at all...
This.
If you're in a very "hip" community, then maybe, but otherwise they tend to stand out and confuse people around them.
Of course, this should not stop you from being who you feel you are.
I have always thought there to be a difference between being non-binary among people, and been non-binary at people. I assume the first have an easier time than the second.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 23, 2012, 02:26:25 PM
I have always thought there to be a difference between being non-binary among people, and been non-binary at people. I assume the first have an easier time than the second.
How does one be non-binary at people? (Not meaning to be rude. I'm just curious.)
Well, non-binary need not mean outrageous or campy or over the top, you can be non-binary without dressing in such a way that says, 'LOOK AT ME! I'M NON-BINARY!! LOOK AT ME!!!' although a lot of people have fun with that, which is fair enough, but people of any gender who dress -big- should expect larger reactions as they go around.
For example, this is a man
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthemanwhofellasleep.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F08%2Ftwitter_the_man_who_fell_0107.jpg&hash=1670042c46c74f8b2deac3bae61e5b5198cf22af)
and this is a man dressing -big- and saying 'LOOK AT ME! I'M A MAN!! LOOK AT ME!!!'
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.starpulse.com%2FPhotos%2FPreviews%2FDog-Bounty-Hunter-tv-10.jpg&hash=8cd0608c2f9a5f6fe2a7feb0506fbd31d1a4083e)
They are both males presenting male, but one will get stares (and in the UK s->-bleeped-<-s). Apply that to non-binaries and it is the same point.
Haha I laughed for five minutes when I saw the picture of Dog the bounty hunter. I never ever want to look like that.
I don't want to dress big (unless I feel like dressing like a pirate or making a skirt out of scarves or whatever, but that's neither here nor there), but I do wish I could look like whichever gender I feel like. Since it happens to change, it would be noticeable to people who see me for a longish period of time. But I can't pass as male anyway (which sucks), so... Sorry for rambling.
No rambling, pretty on task for round here.
I dress like a pirate too, always had a thing for them, well the romantic type anyway. As the book says,
QuoteI have always wanted to be a pirate. I can't remember who to blame but I think I'll go with Errol Flynn because he swashbuckled with such a grin on his face.
He was a pirate but he was morally right, he fought for good and truth and he loved doing it. He was an active person in an active world, everything was grand in his films, it was all worth fighting for and dying for. Geoffrey Thorpe, his character in 'The Sea Hawk' would never have worried about a bus ticket or paying for the correct amount of stamps. A new chocolate bar or cereal would never have excited him, he was too busy fighting injustice and swinging from chandeliers.
That's how I envisioned my life, how I have always envisioned it but been unable to live it, fighting injustice and swinging from chandeliers.
(How's that for a tangent ;D I blame you.)
Anyway, back to what you said...
QuoteSince it happens to change, it would be noticeable to people who see me for a longish period of time.
I'm guessing those who see you for a longish period of time accept you in all your glory -n- facets anyway, at least to a certain extent.
As for you not passing, if that profile pick is you, you look like the fan of a lot of twee-pop bands I know. If not, it's probably someone famous I've never heard of, looks male anyway.
I don't think it's necessarily bad to be androgyne "at" people on occasion. Just like any bold fashion statement, as long as it's tasteful and not done in a caricature-like fashion, such a presentation can be starkly and profoundly beautiful.
Example:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2QQW6.jpg&hash=0ada7a780c6612c7f786dd1061655bac3daf3a7b)
Strangely enough, most people refuse to see me in all my glory (in more ways than just gender).
Sadly, that profile pic is not me. He is Vex from Lost Girl. I do want to be him or be with him, but he's a fictional character.
What's twee-pop?
Quote from: Anthropos on April 23, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
I don't think it's necessarily bad to be androgyne "at" people on occasion. Just like any bold fashion statement, as long as it's tasteful and not done in a caricature-like fashion, such a presentation can be starkly and profoundly beautiful.
Example:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2QQW6.jpg&hash=0ada7a780c6612c7f786dd1061655bac3daf3a7b)
Yeah, beautiful on a catwalk, absurd on a street (like most things on a catwalk).
Twee-pop: It's a sort of shambling, crude type of indie with a focus on the sweet, cute and 'nice'. It's purposely un-macho music, a little saccharine, but also pretty nice. This is one of the bands that kind of influenced it, I love this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyG7VzPY_hI
I've told many people in my community about who I am and where I live on the gender continuum, and they seem to get it. I'm now dressing more androgynous or femme. I often get compliments from friends, and also an occasional stare. I've noticed some women want to feel the fabric, particularly when I'm wearing silk blouses. ;D I'm happier now that I'm outwardly expressing my gender rather than keeping it hidden away, as I'd done for way too long.
Z
Anything orange and/or fuzzy is a no no for me, but that's just personal preference.
Interesting song. I'm more of a metal/rock/industrial/mixed genre person myself.
I think I just derailed my own thread.
That's great, Zythyra! I like blouses. They are great for steampunkish and pirate outfits. And silk blouses are even better.
Sure the peach fuzz is obviously a bit over the top. But replace that with a nice woman's linen top and denim jacket and you have a very nice, everyday outfit.
I am physically female and cannot pass as male. Wearing a woman's top does absolutely nothing to make me look androgynous. It does the opposite. But this isn't about looks anyway. It's about being out.
Sorry I wasn't explicit, I was responding more to Pica's comment and refering to what would look good with the model's body.
Oh right! Sorry.
Funny thing just occurred to me.... :)
Oh my word.
I might come across more androgynous then I want to, or had planned to. It simply would happen having a 'sporty' frame, still at age 65, hardly boobs (38A) nor curvy bottom (36), yet presenting female (include vj), and dressing that I don't look over the top (mostly, and learning) and certainly avoid anything that could look camp. Head-scarf, tingly-bell belts, glitter nail-varnish, mincing walk, stuck-on lashes, purple or pink hair... ???
Just some suggestions, and all this at 65!
Hey, honey seen it all and then some, believe you me :)
Add a low-ish voice (mine) - and a somewhat male-flavoured attitude - only at times, (thank you!) ... if that does not spell andro, then WHAT does?
I mention this, because in this way, I, personally, have NO acceptance issues - bar those folks that INSIST I have to meet THEIR male-picture of myself. Esstentially being an abomination upon the Lord, aye! (Well THEIR lord, methinks)
I simply do avoid them, which I do - now.
So, my guess, now androgynous, not quite by choice... oh well.
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 23, 2012, 11:54:06 AM
But seriously, I'm XY, have a vj, boobs, and am a Monarchist... now... ... none of any of that is immediately apparent (hardly my boobs)... so?
Good thing.
I am the last living descendant of James Francis Edward Stuart, and rightful ruler of Great Britain.
Those Germans in charge there now are mucking things up!
And your boobs are fine.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 24, 2012, 02:38:09 AM
Good thing.
I am the last living descendant of James Francis Edward Stuart, and rightful ruler of Great Britain.
Those Germans in charge there now are mucking things up!
And your boobs are fine.
Kiss, kiss, and hug :icon_bunch:
Axélle
To my observation, how we treat members of different genders differently is so hard-wired into most people's social programming that the mere concept of non-binary gender sends their circuitry haywire.
Notice I said "most people". There are those that are naturally flexible and those that have decided to become flexible.
I'm trying to become one of the second group, and not finding it easy. I shock myself with some of the assumptions I catch myself making based on the gender people appear to be.
Quote from: agfrommd on April 24, 2012, 10:46:17 AM
I shock myself with some of the assumptions I catch myself making based on the gender people appear to be.
Even for those of us who embrace diverse gender identities and expressions, we were still programmed with society's pervasive gender attitudes and stereotypes. It takes a lot of soul searching to rid ourselves of these assumptions.
Z
Quote from: Jamie D on April 24, 2012, 02:38:09 AM
Good thing.
I am the last living descendant of James Francis Edward Stuart, and rightful ruler of Great Britain.
That is tremendously cool. I wish I was that. Well, if you ever want to claim the throne, you have my support.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 24, 2012, 01:42:50 PM
That is tremendously cool. I wish I was that. Well, if you ever want to claim the throne, you have my support.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviewfrommybalcony.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F03%2Fv-for-vendetta-logo-wallpaper.jpg&hash=9bd4b0ea47150878bc000130c4f55eb8d41d1e6b)
Quote from: agfrommd on April 24, 2012, 10:46:17 AM
To my observation, how we treat members of different genders differently is so hard-wired into most people's social programming that the mere concept of non-binary gender sends their circuitry haywire.
Yes, I see this a lot, as they try to categorize me.
But I'm treated fine, once they give up.
That is so cool, Jamie!
I do not and have never understood this social thing people speak of or what it has to do with gender at all. I wish people would stop talking about it because, the more they talk about it, the more people pretend it exists and that does not compute which makes me feel confused and disorientated.
Quote from: Edge on April 24, 2012, 04:59:53 PM
That is so cool, Jamie!
I'll let you in on a secret. The legitimate Stuart line died out with "Bonnie Prince Charlie" in 1788,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F4%2F45%2FCarlos_Bonnie.jpg&hash=e7eff0f4c5296860e3d08163ef27601a2f6b91fc)
and his younger brother, Cardinal Henry Stuart ("Cardinal Duke of York") in 1807.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8e%2FHenry_Benedict_Maria_Clement_Stuart%252C_Cardinal_York_by_Antonio_David.jpg%2F179px-Henry_Benedict_Maria_Clement_Stuart%252C_Cardinal_York_by_Antonio_David.jpg&hash=f0d652a45a2fa0c68b205c3aa350b3d2d110faa4)
The is good evidence of one, or both, of the brothers having bastard children, and claiming to be heirs to the Stuart line is somewhat of a cottage industry.
In that case, so am I then.
Because you lost my support with this.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 24, 2012, 02:39:49 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviewfrommybalcony.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F03%2Fv-for-vendetta-logo-wallpaper.jpg&hash=9bd4b0ea47150878bc000130c4f55eb8d41d1e6b)
I don't want no warner brother hero world.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 25, 2012, 01:00:20 AM
I don't want no warner brother hero world.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwillblogforfood.typepad.com%2Fwill_blog_for_food%2Fimages%2Fguy_fawkes.jpg&hash=0463b2c3da8b51103340faf6d85c0ccc7a122a77)
Better?
In some parts of my life I feel like I'm tolerated more so then accepted When out and about I'm laughed at and have strange conversations with 'Normal' looking people there are some groups within the queer word that I feel accepted and others where I feel excluded. I'm often told I'm brave presenting as me ( but I have greater fear of my inner thoughts then of being attacked or insulted for not being me).
I try to present as a bearded Lady with most people seeing a "Man in a dress" but others not being sure what I am.
different people have different ideas I what I am I don't fit and feel ecluded a lot but some people accept me as a person who is a bit different.
Quote from: Jamie D on April 25, 2012, 02:36:58 AM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwillblogforfood.typepad.com%2Fwill_blog_for_food%2Fimages%2Fguy_fawkes.jpg&hash=0463b2c3da8b51103340faf6d85c0ccc7a122a77)
Better?
Not really, not being a militant Catholic and all.
Nice hat. lol
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 25, 2012, 02:15:54 PM
Not really, not being a militant Catholic and all.
It's not the Catholicism, but the sheer audacity that counts.
In some ways, Guy Fawkes is the British version of Don Quixote.
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
Quote from: Edge on April 27, 2012, 01:50:01 PM
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
It isn't wrong to want the body that you envision for yourself!
Z
Quote from: Jamie D on April 27, 2012, 12:00:43 PM
It's not the Catholicism, but the sheer audacity that counts.
In some ways, Guy Fawkes is the British version of Don Quixote.
I wouldn't say so.
For a start, Guy was not a planner, he was a paid mercenary brought in for his knowledge of fuses.
Quote from: Edge on April 27, 2012, 01:50:01 PM
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
Nothing wrong at all!
To get my body when my mind-image is at, I need to try and reach that compromise.
There are plenty of examples in nature.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 27, 2012, 02:58:26 PM
I wouldn't say so.
For a start, Guy was not a planner, he was a paid mercenary brought in for his knowledge of fuses.
Did the fuse work? Or was the plot found out?
I'll trust your rendition of British history, thought I took a course in "Tutor and Stuart England" back in college, from a visiting British professor. I'll have to unpack those text books!
At least Guido has a popular mask in his "honor."
Some people think the plot was set up in full knowledge (maybe even encouragement) of the government.
Others think the letter from one of the plotters to his mp cousin, warning him not to be there might have been a slight tip off.
Quote from: Edge on April 27, 2012, 01:50:01 PM
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
Not at all. It's what I'm going for, actually.
Quote from: Edge on April 27, 2012, 01:50:01 PM
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
I don't think it's ever wrong to want something unless it makes you unhappy. And it is never wrong to go after what you want unless it harms you or other people.
Edge, you deserve to be happy. You deserve to have everything you want from life.
Quote from: Edge on April 27, 2012, 01:50:01 PM
I have another question to do with the acceptance of non-binary people if that's alright.
Last night, someone made a comment about people taking offence to this, so I was wondering... Is it wrong to want a body that is in between male and female? That could be either?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be between Male and female there are many people here myself included that live in the real world with a gendered presentation that doesn't fit male or female. I often get laughter & "WTF" type of comments.
Some people at here at susans from the more binary transation world pop their heads in here I'm not sure of the comment where someone was taking offense but I'm guessing it was just someone who didn't understand.