Susan's Place Transgender Resources

As has happened several times in the past whenever I venture out away from home to make it easier on us both, I'm getting pressure to come back again.  I know better from experience, I'm not stupid, but it seems I do have rocks in my head.  I always want to believe that perhaps this time things will be different and we can find some peace between us and some confort in each other.

This December would be our 26th wedding aniversary.  We have been through some hell together, from coast to coast, and we had some fantastic times together, all in all, a lot of ups and downs, but it seemed we could survive anything until I couldn't take it all anymore.  Things took a few twists from there on.

Anyway, most should be familiar with such stories, so no need to go into it.  This time though is a little tough.  I would always wish to make her happy, basically she is a good woman, and she did after all, take care of me through for fully half of her life now and gave me so much more then I ever returned.and I have put her through so much over the years in so many ways a woman should not be put through.  She claims that I am still her world, yet it would seem she can never accept how different I am now then then those years ago, and being a str8 type, not accepting of being ingaged in or being viewed as, being in a lesbian relationship.  I understand that, she didn't ask for it, rather it would be forced on her if she is to make a choice.\

She tells me she is concerned for our children, all adults, with lives, husbands, boyfriends and children of thier own, discussing wiith me about how they feel she has let me down in one way or another over recent years and are not as close to her anymore and wants to get married again, a reafirmation of vows to renew the bond and demonstrate to the children we are still a family, and she says she can cease to keep finding ways of trying to pulling my plug and even come out of retirement and go back to work, help me with whatever I need, would be nice as she made 2 to 3 times my present income before she left work and went on SSI.  She seems concerned about me going overseas so as not to have to wait another year or moreto save U.S. prices and says she will help make up the difference so I can finish up here in the states if I will only hold out a little while longer.

She wants a white wedding.  Rent a chaple in Reno, have all the kids, her family and whatever of my family would wish to come there to witness.  None of that this man and this woman stuff though, just a simple stating of our own vows to each other, from the heart and with the knowledge of all our years together, in the end to be pronounced a married couple.

We were talking about the manner of dress, half joking, but serious.  Not that I'd really wear one, but I told her I like matching gowns for us, but to that she refused,  She offered me instead a white tux, female cut with white pumps and we would both go down before getting dressed to have our hair cut and done, nails and toes done and professional makeup.  Ok, I guess I can suffer through such things without being to miserable.

Anyway, It's touching she would want to marry me again, and especially with genderless vows and proper attire for myself.  That would be a big step for her.  It all appeals to me and I appreciate her for it.  The only problem is past experience.  I've moved out before when things weren't so nice between us, but she always came found me and talked me into coming back and it's always ended again with deeper problems, I know better and this recent past has been especially bitter, some surprises for me best left private, but the thing is, I want to believe.  I'm not built to live alone, especially anymore, and I have no other special person,  especially one who has been there and back again with me.  I want to believe, and I've learned to protect myself and my interests, though doing so would have little to do with trust would it?

She did spell out some conditions though..  She doesn't want me in the company of, or corrisponding with any other women without her present with me.  Doesn't feel it to be proper, and besides, we've talked before about my becoming involved in emotional relationships in the past and one more recent where I crossed borders, but has always forgiven me because I've never been physical, though she views it as much the same for a maried person to become involved in anyway with another person where she's not included, and I have to agree with that at the bottom of it.

All in all, just a little rough, one of the things I most want to salvage in life, but the experience to be wary of it, though to be so is somewhat self defeating in such things.

Just a simple matter of should I marry my wife or not?  She has been my best friend and my worst enemy, she beat me over the head with killing myself over the hormones when I went down with stoke and made me feel all in the world was lost forever, and when she took me to surgery for orch, she dropped me off in the parking lot and told me to call when they were done with me as she wanted no part of it and gave me more ration about resuming mones afterwards, but I can remember her taking such carful care of me in past years when hurt or injured and always being there when I couldn't face my job and my life anymore and simply needed to be held and loved to make it through another day, she was always there until I went where she didn't feel she could go.  I can't ever forget that.

Terri

Wow... its 4 am and I really can't formulate an intellegent reply at the moment but I will give you*HUGS*

*ponders carefully*

I am afraid you will regret either decision. Given that, I vote for a nice white (re)wedding. From a purely analytical point of view, I think there is less to regret if you try again. Besides, benefit of the doubt, things might go better than before. Time, sometimes, is a wonderful doctor.

Just my coppers, for what they are worth. ... I wish you very well Terri
:angel:

Hi Terri, 

I'm going to do my very best to be objective here, though as you know that is somewhat difficult for me at times. 

I'm by no means a proponent of divorce, I highly regard the institute of marriage.  And yet I myself will be getting divorced from a man who absolutely adores me and would hang the moon for me and would take me back in less than a heartbeat.  Reason for doing so, in short, is that no matter his devotion to me, it would be unhealthy for me to remain in that marriage. So as much as I acknowledge that trying to salvage a marriage is commendable, I also believe that the marriage needs to be healthy for both parties. 

I would first encourage an examination of motives of both you and your wife.  From your end I hear 3 main things: 
1) You don't want to flush 26 years down the toilet.
2) You feel you owe your wife for all that she's been & done for you in the past.
3) You don't want to live alone. 

The second one can begin to get a little sticky--I've seen people go way overboard and end up hurting themselves because they try to overcompensate for others' kindness or for their own perceived inadequacy. In many cases the root of this has been guilt, and doing things out of guilt can get out of hand, because usually those do so really don't know where to stop, or how much is 'enough'. 

The third one seems to be a simple fear of leaving your 'comfort zone'...which is a legitimate fear that we all face in various areas of our lives.  But for that to be a main determining factor of one's decision might be unwise.  Often we need to step out of our comfort zone in order to grow fully into who we are meant to be. 

Your wife, however, if she fully accepts you into the marriage as a woman, (meaning no more monkey business trying to sabotage you) would be taking a giant leap out of her comfort zone, for which she would deserve major kudos. 

QuoteShe tells me she is concerned for our children, all adults, with lives, husbands, boyfriends and children of thier own, discussing wiith me about how they feel she has let me down in one way or another over recent years and are not as close to her anymore and wants to get married again, a reafirmation of vows to renew the bond and demonstrate to the children we are still a family

If this is a main determining factor of why your wife wants you back, it should probably be discussed further.  Why do the kids think that she has let you down?  Did they tell her that, or is that what she perceives from her own self-doubt?  Have you discussed it with the kids yourself? 

If you do go through with renewing your vows, it won't convince the kids that you're still a family unless they then see an improved relationship between you and your wife.  Which no doubt would be your goal if you went through with this, but thought I'd throw that out there. 

Having confessed to her your previous emotional relationship, it's understandable why she'd be uncomfortable with you associating with other women, though which demands you're willing to agree to is a personal decision.  You are of strong character, Terri, & I doubt you'd do such a thing again if you got back together.  Still, trust takes time to re-build itself. 

I'd say it's not in your best interest to re-enter the marriage without conditions of your own.  You've been burned a few times and are also at a pivotal point in your life.  There are some things you cannot afford to relinquish and it's a good idea to spell them out for her.  Where trust is concerned, it's not a violation of trust to protect your interests where you've seen time and time again that they've been sabotaged. 

If you get back together, I would suggest you seek therapy together; therapy that lasts well beyond your full-transition.

A marriage needs to be fair and healthy for both parties. 

Another thing is that in my mind it doesn't seem there should have to be an urgency in your decision-making.  You can (and should) still talk and be friends and see each other regularly while living apart.  The time apart gives you both time to yourselves to reflect. Staying in communication reminds you both that the relationship hasn't dissolved, only changed shape.  And while apart, maybe you can both start to practice those things that you've discussed--such as your wife going back to work & supporting, rather than hindering, your transition; and on your end, whatever promises you might have agreed to for her.  You both have things to prove to each other, I think, and it's not unreasonable to seriously test them out for some months before making a final decision. 

I really hope I did alright on the 'being objective' part of this, Terri.  Chiefly I hope and pray for what's best for you in all areas of your life, which is where my subjective bias comes in. Hope you can forgive me for that.  I hope whatever you decide brings you happiness, lasting peace and comfort.  I hope it fosters your growth as a person and helps you to become she who you most want to be. In all things, take good care of you.  No Matter What  your decision is....aww, hell, you know the rest...!  :icon_flower:

Love,
Valerie

Her terms.  That seemed to be most of what I read.

Terri what are your terms if you did get back together?

She will go back to work so that you can stay stateside.  Would this prolong the time span for surgery and could this be a delaying tactic?

One of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

Quote
  She doesn't want me in the company of, or corrisponding with any other women without her present with me.

Control?

What would going back do to you or for you Terri?  Just my blunt opinion but you need to be you not what others want to make you into or prefer.

Butch up!

I'll chime in with the doubters, Terri. You've been through too much with her before for a "white wedding" to change things again.

If you want to rekindle a relationship and she does too, start from the beginning, date. Keep separate homes and separate finances. Take it very slowly.

It just sounds too much like she wants you to sacrifice to put her back in her comfort zone, be it financial or emotional or both. And I suspect that there is some financial component to it.

Yeah maybe I'm too cynical for my own good, but don't forget in my job, I've been through hundreds of divorces and marriage breakdowns. One romantic gesture does not change a lifelong way of interacting. Long term change takes longer.

Dennis

Hello Terri,

I have to agree with Leigh Hon,  26 years is hard to ignore, but it seems that your wife is laying out all the terms and conditions of any new relationship.  Any relationship has to be based on equality, open communication, and honesty, not just a set of rules.  My wife and I have been at this for 33 years now and like you we've had our rough times, and I know that if we split up it would be hard for me afterwards and I'm not sure how I would react given your circumstances.

The bit about the children is not really a very valid argument, they are all adults, with there own lives, and to get back together because of what the children may thing is not the way to go (unless they were dependant infants, children at school etc...  My daughter pointed out to my wife (her mom) that she could always leave the marriage and revert back to her maiden name and I would just be history, whereas my daughter couldn't.  No matter what happened I would always be her Dad, and that she could never separate those biological ties.

It boils down to "What do you want", will you, would you, could you, be happy going back?  Is the wedding necessary?  What would be your conditions?  What would be the outcome if you didn't go back.

It's obvious that you have both made sacrifices and compromises over the years to support each other, and to get back together will undoubtedly mean more sacrifices, and compromises from both of you.  Can you do this?  Can she do this?

Just my thoughts,

Steph

Thanks girls, and Dennis, straight answers all, and the kind of things I need to hear and consider, If I only listen.  The problem with my own self is a breakdown of self.  I no longer have the strengths or iron will I once possessed, where life was once a mountain to clime or a storm to weather out, it is now a state of confusion that I am no longer master of.  I have learned to doubt my own self in terms of doing the right things for the right reasons, when it comes to dealing with other people.  I am opportunistic by nature, and I can, have and do use them to my advantage when I perceive a need.  My whole life up until a point of change has been about survival and whatever it takes, though I would often enough risk it all to drag another to safety with me, known to me or not.

What impresses itself mostly upon me these days are feelings of how much life for me has always been about me and how I could trample the feelings of others when my own goals were threatened.  I've never been "nice" and I haven't always played fair, only but a set of rules which I used in my own favor for my own purpose.  So much of that is all to apparent to me these days, and I like not what I see in the mirror in those respects.  I had always considered my motives pure and under perfect control and limitations, but it simply isn't true anymore.

I feel as a child in the world of adults anymore and do not trust instincts and motivations that had been forged over a lifetime of doing what was necessary rather then what I would want.  It is simple, In finding myself I have lost who I am and must again find myself and discover who I really am, not what I have always believed under circumstances where it was so easy to see only the black and the white and had no consideration for any greyness.

It is something I will of course work through, but the timing is bad and I'm not ready for so much while entering a whole new mindset and order of priorities toward other people.  The one consistant thing about me has always been the drive to persue any task to completeness, leaving no stone unturned, and I have applied that to myself and my own discovery.  That in itself is by no means bad the way I see it, but yes, it does leave me suceptible to suggestion and prone to not liseten to things that a lifetime have taught me which are still everybit as valid as before, just I examine them slower and no longer have the ability to make snap decisions with whatever little knowledge I have of different situations and trust myself to stick by those decisions to the end no matter what the endless logic of such things might be, and in the past I was generally right.

I must admitt to being lost in many respects, they deteriation of trust in myself and the experience of a totally different environment and a mind that is more open to questioning and testing rather than simply  ialways being sure, so dead sure in the rightness of all I would once do.

Experience talls me my wife would hang on to me forever if only to prevent me from finding another, but having no other I could or would turn to, and lacking desire to develop such again, she is the only constant which ties the two halves of my life together, and she understands my divisions all to well after all these years.

My children are all grown and well adjusted adults.  Thier issue and stand on this is that they all realize I am incapible of stopping this process or of completely retaining much if any of the older personality and while they have degrees of acceptance and reservations, they all want only what is best for me and have taken a unitied stand against thier mother in support of me and against some of the things she has done to distress and stumble me.  My wife sees the marrage as a new beginning and a new commitment to me as I am, not as I was and so hopefully regain some of the prior relationship with our daughters.  I can see and understand how much of it is self interest on her part, but I want so much to believe in her ability to change. 

As to her returning to work and helping me, yes, it will add to my time as of course the cost is double or more here in the states and so yes, it would require more time.  The word Control was mentioned.  Yes Leigh, she is a very controling person, Why would that be a strange or undesirable thing to you though given your own relational circumstances, though you understand the need for fulfilling needs which she has much to learn yet and is more interested in her own needs, but such things are for me to teach her yes?  I'm very good at topping from the bottom when I'm clear about what I'm doing.  This is one of the conflicts within me that must be addressed as a finality.  I have always related ast dominant top, but in nature am much the opposite and she understands that, knows it, and uses it.  After 26 years, there is little she doesn't know about the personality that so few ever encounter,  There is nothing, not a phone number in my phone, a friend I just met, a bank account or the access codes or a place I go she does not know about or have any reason I would conceal from her, though I have at times made ommissions in what I tell her, I have answered her with nothing but the truth when asked and there is nothing about my life or dealings she is not aware of, All of it, and in truth to myself, it is becoming more and more the the dominant side of me, to mix words, and she can see and feel that above all others.

I really don't know how to handle this situation other then take it at face value and count my losses in that respect for the last time if it fails and convience myself to hold to that decision and turn my back on her, but I will at least know I have done all I could possibly do to salvage a part of me.

Thanks friends, you help me to think and keep my feet on solid ground.

Terri

Anyway, it strikes me as the right thing to do, at least one more time.  If things haven't in reality changed, then I know where the door is and I would still have what I walked in with.  A delay would be hard in my present state, but there is little limit to what I would do the find and reclaim love and respect where I have the chance to do so.

Hi Terri,

My mum said something to me once that I have used many times since. She said look at the person closely and see if they are beautiful and look soft to you. If you love someone regardless of how they look they will look soft and beautiful when you look at them.

When I met my first wife and for the first 6 years of married life she looked so beautiful and soft to me and nothing at that time could disuade me. She was and is to this day an attractive woman but at the time I decided to call it quits I looked closely and she didn't have that same beauty and softness that she once had.

Today even after an argument my current wife has a softness that brings me back from the point of anger to wanting to find reconciliation. The question is then, does your wife engender these feelings in you? If so you have a chance.

The next question then, is what does your heart want? You have been given the list of things that your wife wants and is prepared to give. I do note that trust does not appear to be among them however. You need to consider what you want and what you are prepared to give. Now is the time to negotiate with your wife. You have said that you can handle this or that but have not voiced what you need to satisfy your needs.

As you know my wife knows about here and this side of my life and chooses to take no part in it. That's fine by me because I have no wish to come out to my young family and am happy to live in my private moments. This is not the case for you and you will need to decide if any constraints that she places on you fit with your wants and needs otherwise they will remain thorns in the relationship.

I in part agree with Dennis that you need to start from the beginning but I say that the ground rules need to be negotiated first and then those rules be tested before any firm commitment can be made. Most of all any decisions you make must be yours and not made out of a sense of guilt or loyalty.

I too cannot live alone and require others around me and in particular need someone to love and share my life with. If I did however live alone there would be differences between how I live now and what it would be like alone. This is because where I am now has been negotiated and is influenced by what my wife and I want together and seperately.

Finally my advice to you is to listen to your heart. You need to consider what we say but most importantly listen to yourself. If you not happy in your heart then all the riches in the world won't change it one iota.

Good luck lovely lady and know that my thoughts are with you always.

Shelley

QuoteYes Leigh, she is a very controling person, Why would that be a strange or undesirable thing to you though given your own relational circumstances,

Is it control for the sake of control on her part or are you willing to submit against your inner will?  Giving up what you have strived to attain.

Control cannot be taken only given.   Even slaves had the opportunity to run but they had no where to go.  In some cases there is a co-depenedency between two people, master and slave or partners.  One fulfills some part that is missing in the other.  An authority figure, a parental figure someone to look up to

If you agree that she is controlling and you do go back then in my mind your are giving up control to her.  I'm not saying that is bad, just a choice.  You're a big girl now so you do what is best for you at this time.

I should shut up. I have no experience speaking to matters regarding a relationship that was emotional valid before transition.

QuoteI should shut up. I have no experience speaking to matters regarding a relationship that was emotional valid before transition.

Please, no, don't shut up, Leigh.  Maybe I misunderstood this last statement of yours, but can you or I determine the emotional validity of their relationship pre-transition?  I don't think Terri's wife suddenly became controlling at the onset of transition...can you verify that yay or nay, Terri? 

Speaking once again out of my self-confessed naivety, um...do you suppose there's a difference between the type of control issued by someone who is self-seeking and the type of control exhibited in the  lifestyle (uh..leather?) you girls are referring to? 

I would imagine there's a big difference between the two...and here I go again hailing 'motive' as one of them.  And...wouldn't another difference be that someone who is controlling out of her own selfishness or insecurity also lacks  trust and respect? 

Terri, I'm sorry, but the fact that your wife knows everyone in your contact books and all of your account access information doesn't imply anything solid to me.  Marc has some of my info, too, even as we discuss divorce, but the difference is that he and I mutually respect each other.  I don't live in constant wonder about what he might do to hurt me or my loved ones.  In allowing your wife access to all of that information, I don't know if you have trust in her as much as you are making yourself vulnerable to her--a fine line I know.  But only you know what she's capable of & what she's done in the past, do you truly trust that she won't hurt, manipulate, or hinder you with the information she's got, or are you merely hoping?

Just some things to consider. As Leigh mentioned, you're a 'big girl' now, so all your friends can do is advise you in what we see as best and express our concern; ultimately the choice has to be yours.

Take care of you, girl...  :icon_hug:    :-* 

Valerie

Well Teri it's time for me to chime in now. I was unable to reply earlier although I have been following the thread. Lots have been said. Some excellent view points have been expressed. I see a couple of things you are trying to compare which seem apples to oranges so let me disavow by pointing out the difference.

The first point is one addressed by Leigh in response to one of your statements. Lets review.

You said

QuoteYes Leigh, she is a very controling person, Why would that be a strange or undesirable thing to you though given your own relational circumstances

Leigh said

QuoteIs it control for the sake of control on her part or are you willing to submit against your inner will?  Giving up what you have strived to attain.

Control cannot be taken only given.

I think this is an important consideration. My understanding of the voluntary slave/master relationship is that the "slave" gives up a certain amount of control but it is in fact the slave who ultimately controls the relationship, assuming we are talking a healthy relationship. To an outside observer this might beg the question who is  the master and who is the slave in the relationship. If it is a healthy one the question exists if it is not there is something wrong with the realtionship. If you are giving up control can you say that this is a form of control that is healthy or even mutually agreeable or is it simply you giving up control?

Perhaps you feel that by giving up control it will simplify things. Yet you already know the answer to that. You know it will not.

QuoteThe problem with my own self is a breakdown of self.  I no longer have the strengths or iron will I once possessed, where life was once a mountain to clime or a storm to weather out, it is now a state of confusion that I am no longer master of.

I can sympathise here. I have recently experienced this. I broke down. I have never actually admitted to needing anyone. I have always had to be the strong one, the one with the answers, the one who could solve any problem no matter what. But I broke down. Suddenly I found myself needing someone and there was no one to turn to. I wanted somebody else to take control but for me this was not a possibility. My own wife long ago gave all of that to me and I took it happily at the time. You however have a wife who does want to take control has had control and the second you express any independance wants to reel you back in. At least that's how I read what you are saying. It is very tempting.

In the end I had to take control of my situation and be the rock I have always been. All of this leads me to a question. You mentioned this iron will. Did you perhaps leave that somewhere in your distant past and are just now realizing you lost somewhere along the way? Could it have been lost when after years of battle you ultimately ceded control to your wife?

These are just questions. Things to ponder that I think you should. Please do not get offended or defensive about them, I am really no one to you other than someone who talks to you in a forum on the internet. I believe I have more to say but for now I think I will leave it here.

Whatever your decision may ultimately be, I wish you the best and I hope the best for you. I am certain everyone here wishes the same. Many have given you much to ponder. I hope whatever the final outcome that it is the best for you.


Big bear hugs,

Cassie

Hello Terri-Gene,

I was married 17 yrs and we broke up. My wife and I stayed together 7 years more (as we knew we were not campatable) to raise our kids. Also she stayed the last year to nurse me back from my airplaine crash. We knew our differences where too strong. I know she also partly stayed hopeing I would qive up my (or moderate) my tg desires....which I could not do.

There are things done and said in the past that you, and her can never undo. The die is cast. You both love each other, with it proved in your life with her...but with conflicting desires. You indicated you wanted more....someone who would not only love you, but hold you and make love to you too. You she is not into that...so the white wedding will not change that.

It seems to me that its a choice now, between re-conforming to what is and has been...or taking a chance on finding what you think could be. That is scary...I KNOW.

I sure can not tell you how it is or which choice is better for you. But today...9 years after my divorse I live with a woman who is into me...totaly...and I am happier than ever berfore....even better than I could have ever hoped for.

Good luck to you sis,
Love
DebTV

PS I don't think the dome/sub factwer appays to you. And I don't want to be advacating what you do.

 hello Terri,


                           No compromise is possible?         How about still going overseas but even sooner because of the financial help?    just a thought.    her incentive to enter into this is very great, she expects to repair her relationships with her daughters by doing this and to have you back. which incentive is most important to her and has she kept promises to change before?  Is the surgery delay an incentive for her?

                           I hope all goes well with what ever you decide Terri


beth

                 

I get the idea I'm not really being understood here, highly possible because I'm not likely expressing what I really mean in this, if nothing else, I'm wary and uncertain of it myself and not really knowing how to put the depth of what it all means to me into words that have any kind of finality and conviction to them.

Valerie, you ask about trust and it's meaning to me.  I think I summed that up to you before which may have gotten lost in those books we occassionally write back and forth.

It is as I said.  If you never share or allow yourself to be vulnerable to another, then no trust is actually given.  With what one has that can be used against you, thier trust is proven by the way they show it, not how they express it.  Up until more recent times, this woman has never crossed these lines and if she recently has, then she has returned what she has taken, I am not harmed other then in my dissapointment in her for even giving a temporary thought to what would hurt me most, I can cast no stones in this because of the boulders in my own eye.  Trust between us is still intact, though it has been deeply tested, I can only hold to the believe that she really is willing to make a final attempt in good faith and with a commitment to do what is best for me, even if she doesn't see that "best" as being entirely within her own interest.

I realize that after all the water under the bridge that at best it could not be a perfect re-union.  There will at lest for some time be some give or take on the gender issue.  I can deal with that.

And leather?  Not really, not in my case.  I have never been a part of leather, rather something on the surface very simular by much more primitive and less totally inclusive of two people involved with each other, the relationships and meanings and what is gained from them are somewhat different though indeed simular.

Kimberly, I like your viewpoint, at least explore such a situation, I do not have to stick around for anything I can't live with, but I'll never know what could have been if I don't make the effort to try, and a few months to see if there is reason to reconsider is little enough to pay for the possibility of something I would want to have and will not slow me down by any undue amount of time while testing the waters.  It is just that I turn my back completely this time, there will be no turning around, it would be a finality and I no longer believe in finalities unless certain I can go no further with it and must face what I would rather not except for survival.

Shelley, What my heart tells me is that I had commitments and promises to this woman long before she was aware of what the future held in store,  I do care for her and would not see any harm come to her though actions of my own which she has so say or discussion in.  If in the end I must hurt her or we must hurt each other, then it will be, but for my part, I must be there for her unless she herself makes it impossible to extend anymore for her.  I once depended on this woman and she depended on myself.  There was never any question or doubt between us in past years and it is that I would wish to regain.  That doesn't mean it is regainable.  It is in me to turn over all the stones before being convinced I have found nothing.  After all these years, surely I can overturn one more stone before sealing up my heart?

Leigh

QuoteIs it control for the sake of control on her part or are you willing to submit against your inner will?  Giving up what you have strived to attain.

Don't analyse me like that Leigh,  One thing I am still sure of, and that is I will never give up control over or submit to anything which will cost me my own will.  I am very flexible in any negotiation, and there are things I will do to make a partner more comfortable, but depending on what that partner gives me in return I will either return it in spades or flatly refuse, but such things are open and disgussable in the beginning.  I will give all of myself that is not reseerved from the beginning and nothing at all to any who would attempt to take it.

That said, yes, a lot of it is simple control on her part, it is a part of her personality and one of the things that drew me to her in the beginning, though at the start, she bended all solely to my wishes and it took time for her to come into her own in these matters.

You mention about her terms is all you see in this leigh, I simply considered the terms themselves.  She askes that I have surgery in the U.S. so that she can be with me, as she never has frown well under any circumstances, is afraid of my being in a strange county halfway around the world and agrees to help pay for the extra expense if I do so.  Her other condition is I put no others before her and share nothing with other women of any kind of personal nature other then with her direct knowledge of what has transpired.  I don't consider those conditions to be all that far out there, she is saying in a way she does not trust me in relations with other women, but I've earned that one it would seem and she means for me to spend my time with her, not someone else.  I understand these terms and to not to agree to the exclusive lock on each other would imply wanting to hide something.  realistically, I don't see a problem in her wanting that, can you?  As for my own conditions, simple enough, love me and make me feel secure in that love, I ask nothing more and nothing less.  Give me love, I have need of little more in life other then the basic necessities of life.

There would be no giving up of what I wish to obtain, she seems to have made that connection and to realize it is either help me or let me go and for now, she seems sincere that her choice is to help me, and I am of a mind to test that for a couple of months to determine if she is genuine or giving me lip service.  If by the time of the wedding I am convinced of her sincerity, I will hold for a US surgeon, If not, I can still go out of country and return to wherever I have a mind to go.  I can deal with those terms it is simply the finality of it that bothers me, as it is so final.

And Leigh, Please, never shut up when you have something you think I should hear,  despite any pre existing relationships, pre transition or not,  your advice and councel in this, or anything for that matter, is one of the few I put stock in, especially when things don't work as I would have envisioned, there are few more qualified to have an opinion then yourself and until I am truely ready to run with the big bitches any exchanges with you provide me with much to think and learn and when I eventually take my place in the pack I will hope to have achieved perfect confidence in all others I am what I am and nothing else, no more "who's who" to contend with or take into account

Cassandra, As I have said Leather relationships, as you are attempting to understand are not truely involved here and my knowledge of the realities of that environment are limited, I have not lived from within it..

You must understand the dynamics you speak of are not at play here and i have never given up anything in my life through any kind of force of any kind,  The woman wieghed almost a 100lbs pregnant with the one child we had together.  I ordinarily have a much tougher mind then she does.  Any control I have ceeded to her in the past I did so out of trust and love and in former days, it was reciprocated, no force invoved or considered.

for simplicities sake, lets say I like to be seperated from the little hassles of life and would rather someone else make the household and financial decisions, what major purchases we make and what we eat etc. and leave me to the job of providing security and earnings, and all money I have ever made while with her is either direct deposited into our joint account or the check given to her.  I have never cashed a check of my own since we have been married or taken any money out of the bank without her full knowledge and agreement. I make decisions in accordance with what I must do at a given moment in reaction or anticipation of given events, but I leave the matters of daily life to the woman and I do the chores around the house, though unless I am watched or worked with, or simply given specific directions, it is not a good idea to let me do the cooking as my particular taste runs toward what to other people can be overloads of spice or combinations of taste others may not appreciate, but am perfectly capible of normal food preperation when reminded that others besides myself will have to eat what I prepare.

The woman has controlled all money and shopping decisions since shortly after marrage and has branched some from there, things I don't argue about or wish to, when I do disagree with a decision, I say so, though by the time we finish reasoning it out, it's generally myself who is not the winner in the dedision, but again I give her no argument about what she thinks best for us unless I have special insight or knowledge to tell me it is a bad idea I can't go along with.

Our one conflict seems to be the direction of my life.  Before moving to california, she was all over me about what I had done to my carreer and would I not do anything to salvage it, which I would not on the terms it would have to be done.  She asked me, where could I live in peace, where would I find work, how would I afford it with the cuts in income?  So many questions and I simply told her I would find the ways, and with some research and the help of others, I found my present job and as secure in that as one as any reason feel secure in.

Later when being screened for HRT Chronic HEP C was discovered and she felt that was the end of that, and after nearly two years I got the right people together who could see some room to work with me on, so on and so forth, with her almost rejoicing at every negative thing since that she believed would halt the train for me, and when I was doing well, keep up a constant barage of insults and concerns about what I was doing, often screaming to the top of her lungs in an appartment building about "what people will think and do about me"?   Yeah, right, cover it up huh?  Strange for sure, but she would continually lose it and would never see the point that it would go on to the end regardless.  She has always hoped I would give up or the docs would simply shut me down and when that hasn't happened, she has tried guilt, manipulation, threats, ultimatums and things I shouldn't talk about.  It has been a test of patience for sure, but it at least appears she now understands the difference between 'try" and "do" and her only choice is to help or get out of the way.  I only hope that this time she is sincer and if it is not, and may not be, my options are run out, regardless of how I feel about that, but I would want to have what I once had in her and with her asking, I can't simply disapear while a last shot remains open.  This is my own free will, devoid of control doing what I feel I must in order to respect myself and regain and retain something that had been a valued and loved part of me.

She is shopping with me now and not deliberately making sure everyone knows the proper pronounds for me such as HE, HIM, MY HUSBAND etc. etc. regardless of any ititial reactions to me, in fact the best way to start her off on male pronouns for me is to give me any respect or courtesy as female anywhere in her presense or earshot.

She is appearing out and about with me and beginning to act natural about it, incouraging, though I am not sure about her new thing of referring or introducing me to others as her Sister in law, her dead huisbands sister.  Not sure how healthy that is, but if it gets her by, I can live with that.

And yes, giving up personal control has always been a part of me.  For a long time, I followed orders, to the letter and never worried myself about why they were given.  I didn't want to know really.  Same in personal life, I simply do best in a disiplined environment with distinct guidelines and controls on what I will do and not do.  For some reasons I like knowing what my bounderies are and are not.  I'm not going to explain, but I am simply one who takes pleasure and pride in service, but not to just anybody, only the few who have demonstrated a superior mentality to myself.  Physical strength means nothing.  It is the superior will and strength of carracter which I find appealing, not the blind following of anyone who thinks they know how to give orders.  A person of superior will and character can easily stop me in my tracks quicker the hulk hogan.  Find your own answer to the whys of that.

Deb, I appreciate the sentiments, and yes, a lot has been said and done between us, but consider she is a woman who has been fighting for what was her life with all the means she has or can understand and that her torment is at least as great as my own in the resolution of the problem which is mine and mine alone and she is forced into without any prior consent or ability have any say in.  This would make her somewhat mad at me?  You damb right it upsets her, and I'm not going to give her any BS about or expect her to be obligated to support me in something she intrinsically doesn't believe in and further believes has destroyed all her hopes and dreams of the future.  She owes me nothing in this unless she loves me enough to make the best of it, otherwise, she is under no obligation to support me or help me in any way.

Quoteor taking a chance on finding what you think could be. That is scary...I KNOW.

I want you to examine those words Deb.  Do you realiize what you said there and how I or many other transitional subjects would view it?  But then you probably couldn't.

You said those words in relation to taking a chance on a woman which may be for naught.  Well, if you think about it, apply those words to everything transition is about and you should be able to see what taking chances really is and really means.  Few subjects meaning to actually finish have any idea where they are going to come up with all they have to in order to make it past any particular mile marker, Transition itself pales any chances taken over trying to salvage a person who is important to you,  The chance I am feeling I dhould take for a person who was a bonded part of me is laughable alongside the simple act of transition.  No Deb, you don't know as you said you did, but I want to think you for taking the time to ofer me help and advice when my world is confused.

Hello Beth.  Compromise?  no compromise is being discussed other then location, which of course determines price.  The whole idea is she is affraid of my going overseas.  To tell you the truth, I'm a little chicken myself.  I have a small fear of flying as it is, not so much that anyone would have a clue about it, but when it comes to flying over large bodies of water, it is an absolute phobia, believe it or not, It gives me anxiety attacks.  I make such a flight for only one reason, necessity.  That comes down to time already spent in waiting and a growing inability to wait much longer, otherwise I would prefer surgery in the US, even at twice the cost.

If she makes good on going back to work and is willing to slide me a K every month the delay would only amount to a year or so.  Not really acceptable, but watching money pile up has a way of conviencing one that steady progress is being made.  If by December she has not made the steps to go back to work or in some otherway, then overseas it is, no real significant loss and I will do as I must and if that affects any other promises, then it's time to admit it not my turn to win one again.

Would a delay be an incentive to her.  That is a distinct possibility.  Odds are good something may give out by the end of another year, there is a liver working at twice normal function and a brain with what they call an evolving hemmorage condition.  A year ago next month, they told me a new head full of blood was statistically in my cards within the next few years and next time it would likely finish the job.  I am on a clock here and realistically my plans for the future don't really go much past being complete and when I am, I'll go in peace whenever I am taken.  I just want to not go in vain, I won't kick about it as long as I hold out till then, after that, it's borrowed time, nothing more and i'm greatful for what is available to repair what I can of what I have done to achieve it.  So yes, if she could slow me down, there is the possibility of something that will change things in her view, but I would hope she carried no such deliberate ideas.

The incentive of myself or the kids or both is a valid enough question, The kids are all comfortable enough with me as I'm going, but that doesn't mean they would wish it were so, but over some more recent attempts at sabotage toward me, the kids have been feeling she went entirely to far in her resentment of me and have each and everone declared thier displeasure at her, forcing her to put some things back as they were and beginning the process of making up with me.  I really don't know, it's just one of those things that will sort itself out in time.  I just have to keep in mind that while I would want to go through with this, it might be handy to have the parachute packed and be ready to jump when instincts tell me things I don't want to hear.

Anyway friends, it's all not the big worry or concern it seems to have been taken as.  It is more prone to failure then sucess, but is a shot I feel I should take.  Consider to, I will never have another bonded partner, and this is the last one I shall ever have a shot at, and so yes, there is a lot of selfish motivation her to take whatever risk it is.  My eyes are open and I am aware that the land of happily ever after is likely going to stay in the story books, but I would hope with all my being this is salvagable as it is as I said, the last chance I have in life, for all I know, of love I can truely recognize and be secure in.  Without Love, you ain't got nothing.

Terri

Sounds a little like a job to me from what i read so far. Unless there are some unspoken more intimate moments. In exchange for the possibility of some more financial help (if she goes back to work) and you having a partner, you would help her overcome these family divides that she is evidently experiencing.

Have you dated any with her?

If you were looking at someone else in your shoes, what would you tell them?

Your a smart wench Terri-Gene and I'm sure you will decide what is right for you...and her.

Good luck
Love
DebTV

Terri,

As far as the trust thing goes, I was only making mention of the fact that there's a difference between placing trust in someone whom you believe to be trustworthy, and making yourself vulnerable to someone who has violated trust (and repeatedly at that!) in the past. 

For your benefit, Terri, I will note that yes, not all people who have broken a trust in the past are doomed to repeat the offense.  But when there's a pattern involved...well, just be careful. 

The only reason I even said anything about leather was because of this interaction between you and Leigh where it seems you referred to it first: 

Leigh wrote:

QuoteControl?

to which you replied:

QuoteYes Leigh, she is a very controling person, Why would that be a strange or undesirable thing to you though given your own relational circumstances....

And:

QuoteI'm very good at topping from the bottom when I'm clear about what I'm doing.  This is one of the conflicts within me that must be addressed as a finality.  I have always related ast dominant top, but in nature am much the opposite and she understands that, knows it, and uses it

It was only when you parallelled your wife's control issue with the leather culture that I began to make comparison....  And that was a long post you just made, but I don't think you've specified whether or not your wife even respects you? Speaking from lack of knowledge and experience, remember, but I thought it was you who even told me once that the whole leather thing has a great deal to do with respect (among other things).  So when you countered Leigh's 'control' comment with references to leather, it didn't add up to me, as it really doesn't appear that your wife respects you at all. But who knows, it might be that I misunderstood you or simply don't know what I'm talking about, so maybe it's my turn to be quiet....

Still your latest post seems to indicate that you've long since made up your mind which makes me wonder what on earth was all the turmoil about if you knew what decision you were coming to anyway?  Only remember that we who offer our thoughts here do so only out of concern for you, so please don't be too taken aback if we misunderstand your intent.  

On a personal note, it would hurt me as your friend to see you hurt in any way, by anyone, but all I can do at this point is promise that I won't say 'I told you so' if you return to your wife and it turns out less than favorably.

Terri, you are a grown woman, beautiful and strong and wise; capable of making your own decisions and suffering reward or consequence for them. Though I'm concerned for your well-being, I support your right to choose & I stand strong beside you in whatever choice you make, agree or disagree. 

I'm afraid my thoughts are exhausted at present. Proceed with my blessing. I pray for your physical, emotional, mental, & spiritual well-being.  I will keep all of your family in my prayers for reconciliation, healing, and continued growth.  Remember your spirit guides....

Love you, girl, stay in touch,
Valerie

Quote
Up until more recent times, this woman has never crossed these lines and if she recently has, then she has returned what she has taken, I am not harmed other then in my dissapointment in her for even giving a temporary thought to what would hurt me most

I realize that after all the water under the bridge that at best it could not be a perfect re-union

What my heart tells me is that I had commitments and promises to this woman long before she was aware of what the future held in store,  I do care for her and would not see any harm come to her though actions of my own which she has so say or discussion in

I will never give up control over or submit to anything which will cost me my own will.

That said, yes, a lot of it is simple control on her part, it is a part of her personality and one of the things that drew me to her in the beginning

Any control I have ceeded to her in the past I did so out of trust and love and in former days, it was reciprocated, no force invoved or considered

Our one conflict seems to be the direction of my life.

You trust her and most of the time she has never done anything to violate that trust.  Your direction in life has threatened her and she reacted accordingly and done some things to violate your trust.  Is that correct?

It seems to be a pretty normal situation.  She tried to stop what she felt was 'the end of the world' with the control that you had freely given her.

Terri, the only thing that worries me looking at this situation is the REASONS she is trying to reenter the marriage.  Is she genuinely sorry for violating your trust?  Or does she feel guilty for it because your children didn't approve of her methods?  If she isn't genuinely sorry for violating your trust and trying to stop you from being you, is it wise to reenter your marriage?

The second thing you alluded to in your post was that this has happened before during your marriage.  Would this be a repeat of the same thing?  It has ended badly before, ask yourself why/how this is different.

You said that the direction in your life is really the only conflict.  Can she come to terms with it, or is it diametrically opposed to her viewpoints and beliefs.  You make it seem that she can compromise on that issue and that is good.  Is that a viewpoint you anticipate she will take for life?  Or is it a viewpoint she is taking because your children made her feel guilty for her prior actions?

These are all questions that only you can answer and I am sure you have thought of them.  I just thought I would throw them out there.  I am sure you love her very much and I am sure she loves you very much as well Terri, but don't reenter a marriage with her just because you believe that you will never find anyone else out there who loves you for you.  Especially if you think she is doing this out of guilt or if you don't think it will be any different from the other times that the two of you have been apart.

Thats just my two cents.

Jessica

Turn everyone of those stones dear lady because I can think of nothing worse than being left wondering what if?

She must be a special lady for you to be twisting yourself so over this decision.

Goodluck to both of you and I wish the best for you whichever way this goes.

Shelley

Valerie, what is between She and I is a strange thing, at the bottom of it all, there was and is a deep bond, it has and is being tested to the ultimate extream.  I've been there and back again, so I am under no delusions that things will turn out alright just because I want them to, but she appears to be able to accept the situation if only I make her a true part of my life again.

for some years now I have receeded more and more from her.  I do not share with her, my hopes, my dreams, my fears and my closest thoughts and she knows that and is uncertain what I mean to do after surgery.  She knows what I can do when I set my mind to something and she knows how easily I can simply disapear and is convenced I will do so, and in fact I would and she would never see or hear from me again and according to her, that is a worse fear then the unknown of a true life with me.

What she is asking in return for remaining with me as I choose to go is some assurance that I can truely make an honest commitment to her to remain with her if she accepts me as I am, or at least leaves me alone with it and does not try to hinder me.

She doesn't want me being private with other women.  If I am willing to introduce a woman to her, tell her what I am doing with this woman, come home when I tell her I will be home etc. then she understands private friends, but she doesn't want me having any relationships with others that she feels should be reserved to her.  That doesn't sound strange to me and in fact I would expect it of any woman to feel that way,  After all, what is the point of a committed relationship if you have a need to go outside of the relationship to find the things you need within one. 

Her major complaint is that I am so totally open about my feelings, desires and plans to so many others, but share so little with her anymore.  She seems to honestly want to be a true part of my life again and is willing to adjust her own behavior to make me more comfortable so we can redevelop the relationship we once had.  If she can honestly accomplish this, I can do little else but try with her.  She is not actually asking for anything that isn't reasonable in exchange for making the attempt, and if it proves to not be working out, I can always withdraw with little harm to myself, just more experience.

It's a simple question of what your goals are in life.   I have focused for so long on only one and have simply left other important things to work themselves out later, but as I have said, I can't truely be happy without true love and commitment, and I have no tolerance for things that are temporary.  I need someone to care for and to care for me, I can not be complete without someone to share what is within me with in the closest personal sense.  It is a part of me that defines me and a requirement that must be met.

Part of my willingness to make this attempt is of course due to that inner need.  I have nobody even close to being someone I could live with in this manner and not likely to find such.  So it is natural I would try to salvage a known relationship.  Be that weakness or whatever, I don't care.  I'm rather through with standing purely on principles at any cost or expense.  There is life to consider also.

Anyway, not to worry friend Val, I will take the necessary steps to protect myself in the beginnings of this, until I am sure I am being reasonable.

All I want is to find some happiness in life, regardless of the losses.  A ray of sunshine is all it takes to spark that happiness, even through the eye a dark cloud.

Jessica, I understand many reasons why it would be to her benifit to accept me and create a new bond with me,  People always have personal motivations for everything they do, however, if it translates to fulfilling my own needs, it is of no matter to me as long as I can sense sencerity and a true desire to work with me.

I can no longer be a fighter, but I will never bend to simple stubborness and unwillingness to take whatever chances are necessary to gain the things I value most.  Much of the fighter will remain forever, but manifest itself in very different ways then in past situations.  My happiness is worth something?

Shelley, thank you for the support, and I think you understand.  Sail on Girl.

Terri

Dear Terri, I wish I'd known from the beginning all that you've told us now...I could have perhaps saved myself from appearing less compassionate than I like to think I am.  As I've said, I do often have trouble being objective, especially since the only vantage-point I'd been privy to was yours, and as you're my friend I can 't help but to side with you, though when given to proper discernment I can actually be fair, sometimes to a fault.  Forgive me if I've not listened with both ears or have caused you undue distress.  My only intention was to support you, only I had a hard time for a few days figuirng out what that was supposed to look like.  I offer my humblest apologies.   

I do indeed understand that in marriages certain concessions can and should be made under mutually agreed upon terms.  My husband and I had even discussed at one point the very same thing you and your wife are going through--about having personal friends outside marriage.  In the end as we got to know each other more intimately we found that we needed no such restraint for either of us.  Still, it's for each couple to decide what needs to be done to keep both parties secure in the marriage. 

I'll be quite honest: I have previously attempted to see things from your wife's point of view, but only now since you've provided this detail have I been able to get a better picture, and while I disapprove of how she's hurt you, I still can feel some of her pain and struggle, too. 

As I've mentioned to you previously, if you're going to be married, be married all the way.  And no, it's not weakness at all that you try to salvage the relationship--it's beautiful that you care, which I didn't see before--your earlier posts seemed to suggest you holding on for familiarities' sake, but today you present yourself differently, more completely.  It won't be easy, but hang in there.   And send me a picture if there is another wedding...

XOXO,
Valerie

PS--Thank God for Shelley, who listens before she speaks, and is temperate and tender and a ray of  encouragement.  Would that we all learn from such as she...

Just wanted to my wife is supportive. Most find that kinda odd but........it's true.  ;D

Nuked the picture, not very appropriate,  Sorry.

-Alison

Quote from: BrandiLynnLace on October 30, 2005, 07:40:31 PM
Just wanted to my wife is supportive. Most find that kinda odd but........it's true.  ;D

Not all that odd :)  I'm a supportive wife myself. :)

That actually makes you a special lady Alison.

Shelley