Hello everyone,
I recall watching a program on the Discovery channel which was about transgender people. Covering their journeys ranging from accepting themselves, making changes, their feelings about society and it's obstacles, etc. During the program they had a person being filmed on the streets asking random people a very simple question which I found to be rather thought provoking, so I thought I would share it with you.
Question that was asked was, why are you a man or woman? Putting aside genitalia. What makes you a man/woman?
I hope that this can turn into a great thread with interesting discussion. This isn't a thread questioning our choices or such. Not at all. I simply thought the question was very thought provoking and it was posed to cis-gender people and I was curious to know what TG people thought about it.
The follow up question/comment that was made was, what would happen if you had a DNA test conducted and it stated that genetically you were the opposite sex. Would that change the way you view yourself as male/female.
Look forward to other's opinions. :)
Personally, I'm convinced it's neurological. Studies have showed that ftms have the same patterns in the brain as cis males when it comes to grey and white matter. There are other studies that also shows gender differences exist in the brain.
I agree, being a man or woman has to do with the brain. However, I believe that being male or female is a mix of the brain and other biological factors such as hormones.
Quote from: DeadBoy on June 06, 2012, 02:40:36 PM
Personally, I'm convinced it's neurological. Studies have showed that ftms have the same patterns in the brain as cis males when it comes to grey and white matter. There are other studies that also shows gender differences exist in the brain.
Right on Deadboy!!! It is al about a small structure on you brain called the Basal Nucleous of the Stria Terminalis (BNST), it is sort the center that determines your gender identity. So I am female because my BNST is a female BNST; pretty simple eh?
My best answer, aside from scientific stuff, is "eeeeeeeeeeeh..."
This is a thing so deep, so unconscious, so rooted and integrated in my own identity that it's the hardest thing to explain. The only thing I can manage is saying examples of consequences of my issue and hope people "sort of get it", but I just can't answer the actual question that was asked.
Quote from: peky on June 06, 2012, 04:52:26 PM
Right on Deadboy!!! It is al about a small structure on you brain called the Basal Nucleous of the Stria Terminalis (BNST), it is sort the center that determines your gender identity. So I am female because my BNST is a female BNST; pretty simple eh?
Wow, this is incredible! Did not know about this aspect of the brain. Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis)
I've been dealing with emotional/psychic trauma within myself for the past couple of years, and I have a distinct memory one night where I felt a strong sense of being "rewired" in the central/lower part of the brain...I told my wife that I felt like I was being re-wired as a woman...ever since, I've been trans.
I don't know if the effect was destroying the male aspects and creating female, or if it was merely opening the pathways I always had...but my male "self" is basically destroyed now, and I am Beth. :)
I know the brain can develop scar tissue during/after traumas, and this scar tissue can (and does) inhibit neuron flow. Indeed, that's the purpose of the scarring--to stop the trauma from causing more damage.
Btw, I have no idea what makes a person a man or woman. I just am, that's all.
QuoteBtw, I have no idea what makes a person a man or woman. I just am, that's all.
thats it for me in as few words as possible :)
Whether you are male or female is determined by the physiology of your brain. How to determine whether you are male or female when the answer is unclear is the real magic...
I have no idea how we know our gender without going off of gender roles, body parts, genetics, and other things that we associate with it. It drives me nuts that we have no objective way to determine gender.
As Peky posted the BNST area of the Hypothalamus is different in males and females. That difference is formed at around 8 weeks gestation and that is that. If the body doesn't match we happen. Other than that it is a question of how you identify in the innermost core of your self.
Karen.
Wow, excellent answers everyone. I especially love the information shared about the BNST. While I watched the program I kept thinking about this factor of the brain but not one person mentioned anything even remotely close to having to do with the physiology of the brain. Some of the answers were a bit disheartening because it was so apparent that for the most part, a lot of the people who had been stopped on the street didn't have a grasp on gender in general. I began to wonder if it is perhaps due to the fact that many have never had to question it and obviously it just led me down an entirely different path. If only more people were aware of certain things the world would be so much more understanding, etc.
Quote from: justmeinoz on June 07, 2012, 04:23:51 AM
As Peky posted the BNST area of the Hypothalamus is different in males and females. That difference is formed at around 8 weeks gestation and that is that. If the body doesn't match we happen. Other than that it is a question of how you identify in the innermost core of your self.
Karen.
This...
but it takes a while, and then some, for most to figure out what the devil has gone haywire if the physical mismatches the non-physical/emotional KNOWING.
There are two sorts of 'knowing' - one in an intellectual/academic, and one in an 'inner' sense.
You can read all about how to ride a bicycle and produce a PhD on the subject. If you never sat on one, you will have no 'inner' knowing about it what so ever.
If born with a female brain there'd be a lack of REAL inner knowing of what it is to be a male (or female).
Having to act the part without this inner knowing is VERY stressful, because we actually have to pretend all the time.
It gives a pretty good first indication there is a gender mismatch of sorts – we are something other then what is physically apparent.
Therefore being male or female is some 'inner' knowing, - as opposed to what is physically apparent.
My 2 cents,
Axélle
PS: Nicola, I just read your last post... there is NO NEED to question how one rides a bicycle if you know how to, it just sort of happens. It is why people would not question what makes them male or female either. They just ARE :)
Quote from: peky on June 06, 2012, 04:52:26 PM
Right on Deadboy!!! It is al about a small structure on you brain called the Basal Nucleous of the Stria Terminalis (BNST), it is sort the center that determines your gender identity. So I am female because my BNST is a female BNST; pretty simple eh?
*googles BNST* Wow. That explains a lot. Thank you very much, Peky.
Quote from: justmeinoz on June 07, 2012, 04:23:51 AM
As Peky posted the BNST area of the Hypothalamus is different in males and females. That difference is formed at around 8 weeks gestation and that is that. If the body doesn't match we happen. Other than that it is a question of how you identify in the innermost core of your self.
Karen.
Right on Karen! I addition, the importance of the presence of the right amounts of estradiol and testosterone (for XY individuals) and alpha feto protein 1 (for XX individuals) just before and after birth to "cement" the wiring of the brain cannot be over emphasized.
Disclaimer: We just have begun to unravel the biology of gender identity and sexual orientation development, and by no means we have a perfect or clear pictures of the whole process.
For me at a very personal level, finding the biological underpinning leading to my misgender event, has been key in eradicating all the "you are a pervert," "you are mentally ill," "you are sinner," etc, BS that I was fed in childhood. It has been a liberating to know that I am not crazy or mentally ill !!!
BNST or BSTc as in: Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis (BSTc)?
Are we talking about the same thing as it seems...
Axélle
Too much science :laugh:
I am what I am because what I was doesnt feel like what I will become.
You dont need to prove yourself of what you are, how you think, how you feel. A man knows he is a man, and a woman knows she is a woman. Some people get confused, some go through phases but once you start transition it is easy to figure out if your heart becomes calm. If you are a woman, besides social fears and repercussions you will not want to stop transition. Though that may be a bit selfish for those who already have kids, a career and a loving wife, and those in that situation whether they stay outwardly a man or transition are braver than most. It is a hard choice either way.
But at the end of the day, there is no science which can crack the complexity of feeling. Besides they are wasting their time, just make us olvaries already. Come on scientist!!!!
Quote from: Nicolas on June 06, 2012, 02:03:11 PM
What makes you a man/woman?
My view is that it's not 'what', it's 'who'. And my answer to that is - me.
Over the past few weeks, fuelled largely by threads here, I've done a lot of thinking about what gender is, what male and female are, where it all comes from. And the more I think about it, the more I realise that for me personally, it becomes an abstract. Interesting to ponder but really not influencing the day-to-day nitty gritty of life.
For me, it's probably a more simplistic idea - it's being able to live my life without feeling dysphoria, being comfortable within my own skin, and having the anatomy (or as close as physically possible) that enables me to stop actually thinking about what gender is, whether it's important, and just get on with thinking about all the other cool stuff in the big wide world. An anatomically female body with all that entails is what matches my internal sense of self and makes the dysphoria and the feeling of wrongness go away. That's all I need to know. Knowing why, be that areas of the brain, mystical insight, whatever it may be... well, it doesn't really contribute to actually living my life. I know why internal combustion makes an engine work, but that does nothing really towards the process of driving a car.
That's what makes me... hmm... not
a woman, but
my own woman. Because whilever I'm being that, it feels like being me. And that makes me happy. For me it's not so much why you are who you are, it's more how you embrace who you are and what you do with it.
Quote from: Sephirah on June 07, 2012, 01:17:42 PM
For me it's not so much why you are who you are, it's more how you embrace who you are and what you do with it.
That's a beautiful way of saying it!
In some arenas of spirituality, dreaming is called "
Walking" and is considered to be when our inner selves plum different worlds and other places. In science (which I consider another form of spirituality - just one that requires much less faith) dreaming is the side-effect of the subconscious processing information that we take in but don't realize. It's a way for our brain to take what it learned and update our consciousness with the information. Kind of like how our user interface here takes what we write and changes it into the programming language of the bulletin board!
In either of these cases, we have a "dream self" and identity that we witness these dreams in. That identity I've always believed to be the closest thing to me I can ever describe. Even in dreams where I am someone else, I find myself describing it as "I" am someone else, and not "The boy I play" is someone else. To me, that means on some instinctive level, in some very basic way, I've known. I've
always known. This inner dialogue, whatever spirituality we use to describe it, is more than what makes us male or female, it is, in all definition, what makes us
us, this inner being, this perfect "me."
It is with this in mind that I can say with 100% sureness, what makes us male or female is us. If one takes to heart the idea that the BTSc determines our gender then they 100% correct. If one takes to heart that their "inner spirit" is female they too are 100% correct. There is a wonderful saying, "The Truth doesn't need you to believe in it." I love that saying, because in the end, that's exactly it. Once we find the Truth of ourselves, that which allows us to be healthy and happy, the nuts and bolts behind it really don't matter anymore. We can't make the Truth, we can't reconstruct it for someone else, we can't patent it, or mass produce it, because it's fluid, transitory, and 100% in the eye of the beholder. At the same time as it is personally relevant, it is at once solid, eternal and unyielding. It is the cosmic background radiation to our big bang event, and it's up to us to find it.
Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 07, 2012, 03:59:01 PM
In some arenas of spirituality, dreaming is called "Walking" and is considered to be when our inner selves plum different worlds and other places. In science (which I consider another form of spirituality - just one that requires much less faith) dreaming is the side-effect of the subconscious processing information that we take in but don't realize. It's a way for our brain to take what it learned and update our consciousness with the information. Kind of like how our user interface here takes what we write and changes it into the programming language of the bulletin board!
In either of these cases, we have a "dream self" and identity that we witness these dreams in. That identity I've always believed to be the closest thing to me I can ever describe. Even in dreams where I am someone else, I find myself describing it as "I" am someone else, and not "The boy I play" is someone else. To me, that means on some instinctive level, in some very basic way, I've known. I've always known. This inner dialogue, whatever spirituality we use to describe it, is more than what makes us male or female, it is, in all definition, what makes us us, this inner being, this perfect "me."
That puts me in mind of Shakespeare. A scene from
The Tempest.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 07, 2012, 03:59:01 PM
In either of these cases, we have a "dream self" and identity that we witness these dreams in. That identity I've always believed to be the closest thing to me I can ever describe. Even in dreams where I am someone else, I find myself describing it as "I" am someone else, and not "The boy I play" is someone else. To me, that means on some instinctive level, in some very basic way, I've known. I've always known.
That's how it is with me in dreams. The question I've been asking for year is are our dream selves our real selves?
Quote from: Edge on June 07, 2012, 06:58:31 PM
That's how it is with me in dreams. The question I've been asking for year is are our dream selves our real selves?
Why do we have to be one or the other, Edge? In science, there is the concept of mutil-dimensional existence. For instance, if you had put a ball inside a wrapping paper roll, and then looked head on at it, all you would see is the wrapping paper on the roll. This is basically the width and height of the roll, or 2-dimensional space. It isn't until you change your perspective (by turning the roll sideways) that you see the ball inside, adding the 3rd dimension, depth, to the image. Physics already accepts that are additional dimensions that we cannot perceive, and I like to think of dreams as our subconscious mind "turning the roll" for us. Dreams allow us to see our world in a way our conscious minds cannot, and that to me means our dreams are as real to us as our waking moments, merely a different perspective!
Quote from: Axélle on June 07, 2012, 08:09:14 AM
This...
but it takes a while, and then some, for most to figure out what the devil has gone haywire if the physical mismatches the non-physical/emotional KNOWING.
There are two sorts of 'knowing' - one in an intellectual/academic, and one in an 'inner' sense.
You can read all about how to ride a bicycle and produce a PhD on the subject. If you never sat on one, you will have no 'inner' knowing about it what so ever.
If born with a female brain there'd be a lack of REAL inner knowing of what it is to be a male (or female).
Having to act the part without this inner knowing is VERY stressful, because we actually have to pretend all the time.
It gives a pretty good first indication there is a gender mismatch of sorts – we are something other then what is physically apparent.
Therefore being male or female is some 'inner' knowing, - as opposed to what is physically apparent.
My 2 cents,
Axélle
PS: Nicola, I just read your last post... there is NO NEED to question how one rides a bicycle if you know how to, it just sort of happens. It is why people would not question what makes them male or female either. They just ARE :)
When I read this I felt like it was something my mother might appreciate reading. She accepts me but she has never really accepted me. I thought maybe it might be something that would help her begin to accept me but I think I am entertaining a pipe dream O_o (again).
Incredibly worded though... You have an incredible way of explaining things ^_^ !
Quote from: peky on June 06, 2012, 04:52:26 PM
Right on Deadboy!!! It is al about a small structure on you brain called the Basal Nucleous of the Stria Terminalis (BNST), it is sort the center that determines your gender identity. So I am female because my BNST is a female BNST; pretty simple eh?
What about those of us, Peky, who believe they embody
both male and female attributes; or those who believe they are
neither; or those who believe they are
something other than one of the binary genders?
For those who fall under the "umbrella" of androgeny, the question posed in this post can be quite disturbing.
Thanks, though for the description of the BNST.
To quote Popeye, "I am what I am." I am female, always have been, even when I wasn't.
Genderfluid or genderless Popeye might say "I yam what I yam...right now!" Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Jamie D on June 10, 2012, 05:35:01 PM
What about those of us, Peky, who believe they embody both male and female attributes; or those who believe they are neither; or those who believe they are something other than one of the binary genders?
That's probably simply an anomaly. Whilst a transsexual happens when the brain develops in the opposite direction, an androgyne (etc.) would happen when it doesn't develop in either of those direction. For example, during its development, it could have for some reason received a surge of both sex hormones, resulting in partial or mixed structure. It started developing as male, and then finished its development as female, or vice versa.
It could also be that the hormone levels were relatively equal, so it simultaneously developed in both directions resulting in an average in the middle. Alternatively, the surge of hormones could have been absent at the time where it should have happened, resulting in the structure developing "blank", leaving the subject with "no gender identity", which pretty much equals an androgynous gender identity.
I'm only talking out of feeling and know little if anything about his, but if you ask me, if transsexuals are an issue difficult to make out, depite the fact that they point in a direction that is already well-known, one of the two biological genders, androgyny and other out-of-boundary gender phenomenons are even harder puzzle to solve. Not only aren't we sure of their origin, but unlike transsexuals, we don't even fully understand their destination, either. And models to compare with are non-existant, as a "cis androgyne" is just plain impossible, as far as I know.
Quote from: Jamie D on June 10, 2012, 05:35:01 PM
What about those of us, Peky, who believe they embody both male and female attributes; or those who believe they are neither; or those who believe they are something other than one of the binary genders?
For those who fall under the "umbrella" of androgeny, the question posed in this post can be quite disturbing.
Thanks, though for the description of the BNST.
I don't think that the brains of people with other gender identities have been dissected yet or studied to the same extent (if at all). It'll be interesting to see what our brains look like.
Quote from: Jamie D on June 10, 2012, 05:35:01 PM
What about those of us, Peky, who believe they embody both male and female attributes; or those who believe they are neither; or those who believe they are something other than one of the binary genders?
For those who fall under the "umbrella" of androgeny, the question posed in this post can be quite disturbing.
Well, since the question is taken directly from a TV show, you can't expect much. I'd just ignore the details of the question and say "What makes me androgyne is..."
Quote from: A on June 10, 2012, 07:23:00 PM
And models to compare with are non-existant, as a "cis androgyne" is just plain impossible, as far as I know.
Intersex, maybe? It wouldn't work for every non-binary gender, though. A cis genderfluid person would have to be a shapeshifter :o
So anyway, what makes me androgyne is... I just am. Something about my mind makes me not very manly and not very womanly, and I don't want my body to look manly or womanly. And I subconsciously picked up on that and didn't feel comfortable living as a man, long before I found out why.
I could say it's because of the number of neurons in my BSTc, or the connectivity of my white matter, or whatever, but my understanding is that scientists have established a correlation, but no causation yet. And the studies didn't cover androgynes anyway. So I'd be making some big assumptions.
And consider this: When the scientists established the correlation, how did they know what the gender of the people was in the first place? That's a rhetorical question; the point is what really defines gender isn't neurological implementation details, but feelings, identity, behavior, and whatnot.
Hmm, intersexed people, as I understand it, are the result of an anomaly, too. Either they are genetically one sex but ended up developing differently, either they have a genetic anomaly which isn't normal... Much like transgenders, but on the physical level.
Quote from: Edge on June 10, 2012, 07:38:35 PM
I don't think that the brains of people with other gender identities have been dissected yet or studied to the same extent (if at all). It'll be interesting to see what our brains look like.
You are right edge, very few papers if any of: gender fluid, genderless, androgynous, etc. My suspicion is along the lines expressed by A (above), that the "gender identity center(s) in non-binary or genderless people would have their unique configuration. This hypothesis could be extended to the "sexual orientation center" for bisexual, pansexuals, asexual, etc.
I am constantly reading on the subject, so I will report periodically.
Peky
Quote from: BlueSloth on June 10, 2012, 08:14:22 PM
And consider this: When the scientists established the correlation, how did they know what the gender of the people was in the first place? That's a rhetorical question; the point is what really defines gender isn't neurological implementation details, but feelings, identity, behavior, and whatnot.
You are abosolute right in your conclusion, no argument ! However, unmasking the biological underpinnings of GID is crucial for legal and medical reasons. Establishing the biological origins of GID makes it easy to demand protection under the law, and medical treament under "health care plans." Living it as "it is all in your head," opens the door to the religious zealots and bigots to say "it is just a liefe style choice."
I am scared whenever they find a scientific way to explain or categorize. Let us be us. No questions asked. I feel any evidence will only be used against me. So I fought with my mom for asking to take some genetic studies. I don't want a magic pill to change either. Why am I a girl, because I said so!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fca.pbsstatic.com%2Fl%2F88%2F9088%2F9780563389088.jpg&hash=16882cd26bc0cfb880d0bfa43ceda1abcd6178c3)
Sorry, can't help getting a goon reference in.
Personally, I don't think the brain tissue can be all. There are loads of things like love, addiction, sociability which factor in the biological, psychological and sociological factors in complicated heap-of-spaghetti ways that I think labelling one bit of the brain is too reductive. I think gender is one of these things.
(However, to make a proper and clear causation would be a way of unpicking one of the spaghetti strands, and so very useful).
Quote from: peky on June 11, 2012, 09:39:17 AM
However, unmasking the biological underpinnings of GID is crucial for legal and medical reasons. Establishing the biological origins of GID makes it easy to demand protection under the law, and medical treament under "health care plans."
You're absolutely right in this being crucial for both legal and medical reasons. Yet I can't shake the apprehension that lurks in the back of my mind when discussing biological evidence of GID (or homosexuality for that matter). We still live in a society that holds such archaic beliefs so dear and near to their heart. Even though the very founder of psychoanalysis (Freud) stated that in his belief all people were innately bisexual, their homosexuality or heterosexuality being formed depending on parental relationships, etc. But my point is that this was something he discussed in the early 1900's. Yet still, homosexuality was considered a pathology and it wasn't until 1973 that it was removed from the DSM as an 'illness'... yet homosexuals continue to be stigmatized. As are those who life with GID - it frightens me to think that if ever there were a biological blueprint found... so many of us wouldn't even make it to full term as fetus' just as so many who test positive from disorders such as down syndrome. Because really, I wouldn't put it past many people to view GID as a form of illness.
Perhaps my view seems a bit, bleak. I do have faith in people and society moving forward. There have been huge strides made since the year of the stonewall riots.. but regrettably it doesn't negate the fact that there is still a long way to go.
Science isn't responsible for people's stupidity. Idiots are no reason to push away the search for knowledge.
The brain is much more complex and fascinating than many people seem to think.
Oh I agree. Science isn't responsible for stupidity or idiocy. In a Utopian world science would be embraced by all but we don't live in a Utopian world. We live in the real world, a real world with laws generated by some of those stupid people with idiotic ideas/beliefs/ideals.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stop looking. I would love to finally have scientific proof to something we already know ourselves. But doesn't mean it leaves me feeling safe.
Well, honestly, transsexualism not being a directly genetic problem (or if it is it hasn't been shown), I think that if there were a prenatal diagnosis of transsexualism, in the event that it actually is related to hormone levels during the development of the brain as it's currently believed to be, merely correcting those levels would prevent the disorder from appearing, creating a normal and happy child.
Some people think that ->-bleeped-<- is a good thing, but I definitely disagree. The most basic concept of being transgendered is to not feel like you belong in your body as it is; in other words, to feel unhappiness. Many argue that the unhappiness of a trans person comes from the reaction of society. This can't possibly be true. If hormones and surgery were free, fast and painfree; if being a transsexual was absolutely no big deal; if everyone was 100 % supportive... would I stop feeling bad about myself; stop wishing that I were born a girl? Of course not.
So if trans = sadness, considering that sadness is an incontestably bad thing, why would we find it to be a good thing? And why would we object to the prevention of it?
Considering the price of hormones and the (I think) relatively short time frame during which the foetus develops its brain's gender, I doubt that such a treatment would be more expensive than abortion. So I don't think people would just flush away transsexuals-to-be.
Sadness isn't a bad thing. It is a normal, healthy emotion.
Uhm, in my book, chronic sadness is an illness, and that's precisely what transsexualism does.
Well sometime's I get really sad about being a transgirl but I get over it you know? GID is as familiar to me as my face or my arm or my leg so I've adapted. But don't forget, transexualism also causes chronic fabulousness!! ~~corny
lol Erin.
Chronic depression is an illness, yes. Sadness is not. Personally, I like feeling sadness because I can feel the difference between sadness and depression and I can feel that sadness is healthy. I do admit I'm a little weird though.
Anyway, I also probably have a weird opinion since I used to suffer from chronic depression and I wouldn't change that because it taught me how much I love life and how much I will fight to live. That's a good trade off in my book. I suppose not everyone sees it that way although I don't understand why not.
Although I do wish to have been born in a body which was congruent with my mind... in that same breath I stop and think that had it not been for my experience/struggles I wouldn't be the person I am today. Which is not only FTM but also understanding, compassionate, insightful, etc. I have a friend who is years post-transition and lives happily as the man he always was but wouldn't go back and change a thing even if it meant being born biologically male.
It is difficult for me to say, really. Part of me does wish to have been born biologically male but I know it would change my character completely. And I don't know if I would jeopardize that.
I guess my wording was wrong. By chronic sadness, I meant depression. I have never felt any such "healthy sadness" from transsexualism. To be honest, it only brings a load of poop if you ask me.
Nicolas: You wouldn't miss what you'd never had. Also, transsexualism doesn't necessarily bring such personality traits. 1. it may have less to do with yours than you think and 2. I've seen many examples of the contrary, with it seeming to have brought very nasty personality traits.
Quote from: Edge on June 14, 2012, 09:45:46 PM
lol Erin.
Chronic depression is an illness, yes. Sadness is not. Personally, I like feeling sadness because I can feel the difference between sadness and depression and I can feel that sadness is healthy. I do admit I'm a little weird though.
Anyway, I also probably have a weird opinion since I used to suffer from chronic depression and I wouldn't change that because it taught me how much I love life and how much I will fight to live. That's a good trade off in my book. I suppose not everyone sees it that way although I don't understand why not.
I know what you mean, but I strongly disagree about it being a good trade off. I feel like I lost a big chunk of a decade to depression.
I do agree that sadness is definitely healthy, and is a fundamental part of how minds work. The whole point of it is to be avoided, though. Negative emotions are bad by definition... they're the very essence of badness. The whole reason they're necessary for a functioning mind is to give the mind something to avoid.
Messing with fetuses in the womb is a complicated moral issue though, and I'm not sure I want to say it's a good idea... it seems like it is, but then again some people say the same thing about doing surgery on intersex babies, so... hmm. ???
I know what your asking, it's how to put it. OK I started cross-dressing when I was only (4) and this continued till I was (14). I liked it, I felt good inside, and well I grew up surrounded by girls I mean (15 to 20) of them and they always asked me to be one of the girls kinda thing which felt completely normal considering I only had one friend who was also male. Anywho I liked it but on the inside (my soul) which I believe is who is thinking right now as I type this......truthfully I guess I grew out of it, no that's wrong I didn't out grow anything I just finally found out after many painful years of mentally abusing myself that I was a man and when I had my first experience with a TS girl I knew then positively that inside my soul I knew she was a woman/girl and I was the man and it was fab to finally have that piece of the puzzle solve my dilemma......I also want to give to all of you my idea and insight that I believe skin, and bone do not make a man or woman it's all you the soul who is reaching out to find your identity, I mean sure it took a TS woman for me to realise the truth about who I was but I also knew (sorta) that I was the man because I was so freakin turned on by her advances.............when I say her I mean that beautiful woman who helped me free my mind & soul.
Quote from: Romeo Seeks Ophelia on June 15, 2012, 11:25:05 PM
......I also want to give to all of you my idea and insight that I believe skin, and bone do not make a man or woman it's all you the soul who is reaching out to find your identity, I mean sure it took a TS woman for me to realise the truth about who I was but I also knew (sorta) that I was the man because I was so freakin turned on by her advances.............when I say her I mean that beautiful woman who helped me free my mind & soul.
Hi Romeo, thanks so much for chiming in and sharing your views. I quoted the above because I'm curious if you feel that your masculinity and you being male is linked to the attraction you had for her, a woman.
It is hard for me to put into words what I feel makes me a man. Of course there are those very important variables which have been mentioned - about brain chemistry, etc. But putting that aside, what else makes me feel male and not female? It is a bit difficult to answer without seeming to be embracing patriarchal views which have been drilled into all of us, women in particular. But I like and embrace certain gender roles. I come from a Hispanic background and to me it is something I feel, as a man, is my duty. Such as doing the heavy lifting, opening the doors, pulling out chairs, etc. Of course this is not to say a woman should not do such things, so I truly hope I am not coming across as such. I think instead of embracing gender roles, I would be more accurate by saying that I embrace chivalry. And on a personal level I feel that linked with my masculinity and gender identification.
Well - me talking here, but the silly, stupid, obvious answer? Self Gender Identity (as opposed to Self Sexual Identity) makes you a man or a woman (perhaps best said male or female).
What is your gender? What you KNOW is your gender, that is what! For me? When a child I thought of myself as a person. When I was about 3 1/2, I discovered there was a 'difference' between people - boys and girls, and then after I thought about it? Girl - yup - definitely a girl. At that age nobody tells you much about sex and genitalia - so that did not enter into my thoughts. I was a girl - I thought and acted and felt just like my grandmothers, my aunts, my mom, and my sisters. I was a girl. I mean dad and my grandfathers and my uncle were okay, but they thought and acted differently from me.
Yes - I was a girl! So I said so.
DANG that caused a reaction or two - HA - You all know the story after that!
Lizzy
Quote from: Nicolas on June 06, 2012, 02:03:11 PM
Putting aside genitalia. What makes you a man/woman?
My experience is that what makes me a man/woman are people's interactions and perceptions of me. Around my parents I am a pretend woman. At work last night everyone was telling each other I am a man pretending to be a woman. Today I have no job.
Basically interactions for me. I used to hang out with a neighbor who seemed nice and accepting but later on he revealed to me that he could never be romantic with someone like me because he isn't gay. Previously he was always telling me how to him I was all woman. That is why I find acceptance so disappointing. Interactions.
We are female in OUR heads – though THIS, by a far shot, does not mean we are female in OTHER people's heads.
I think also that I'm, - what Noey so aptly called "a pretend woman" - with a lot of people, and really with ALL ... that know my history. ALL. The lot of them.
Yes, it is not easy at all for others to simply wipe the slate and not remember what we appeared to have been then.
Even with my ex- (the one I was married to and have a child with), herself having been BI / for a short while acting on it - and VERY accepting of me in EVERY way I can think of, has to say (slip of the tongue...):
"There'd have to be something wrong with someone who gets (inimately) involved with any trans person"
I.e. the way I got it - They'd have to have some 'defect' like e.g. being homosexual in the closet, or having some weird fetish of sorts, maybe?
Now this from a female I was married to for 12 years and is still otherwise very affectionate and caring towards me. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Now the above is my experience about being female – tough titties I say, and I so WISH that for many of us it be NOT like that.
Take care and enjoy life,
Axélle
Now that I think about it, the more I am on hormones and the more changes I see, I feel less like a 'girl' and more like a person. Also, I get called miss, or young lady, or "nena, chica, nina" (I live in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood) a clear majority of the time and I have short hair and am presenting completely male. I'm actually starting to feel better about my body and rethinking if I should go wholesale on transition.
Quote from: Axélle on June 17, 2012, 01:01:36 AM
"There'd have to be something wrong with someone who gets (inimately) involved with any trans person"
I.e. the way I got it - They'd have to have some 'defect' like e.g. being homosexual in the closet, or having some weird fetish of sorts, maybe?
Now this from a female I was married to for 12 years and is still otherwise very affectionate and caring towards me. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Now the above is my experience about being female – tough titties I say, and I so WISH that for many of us it be NOT like that.
I wonder, yes, "trans-romantic" seem to be the textbook entry. Not that I agree with such theories. Even if I was not a transgendered person, being with me is not easy :P. I guess every person is unique, and getting attached always have challenges, which is why most of us go through several heart breaks before finding the right person.
The trick to finding the right person is being the right person.
Great thread!
I think the real test for me was many years ago when I fell in love with a close male friend who was "involved" with me and me with him in one of these relationships where he wasn't sure whether or not to pursue his other side. He knew he loved me, and we were close. We had been through so much together already, but he was off and on with our relationship. He knew how much I loved him and felt for him because I had no problems telling him. I was patient and supportive, but in the end he left and we haven't had contact since.
The conflict with himself was too much to handle and so he turned his frustration on me, and used some rather hurtful words towards me. Know what though? I never held a grudge. I only felt compassion for him. I only felt heart-broken while also telling myself that he just needs time. Time has passed and I can only hope he is happy where ever he is, and with what ever life he has built for himself. This isn't a guilt trip towards him on my part, nor is it sarcasm. If he is happy in the world, then I'm happy and at peace.
This whole fiasco is what ended what I was hoping would be my attempt at transition to being a woman. I was coming so close to telling him and actually starting transition with him by my side. Now I am at the point where I feel I can move towards that transition again. So, knowing I am a woman, for me, came earlier on in my life but was strongest at that time in the past. I knew when I was in love and I felt like it was very natural, and I felt good with it. That's what makes a man or a woman, I think, is knowing who you are and being secure with it, no matter what body you were born in.
It's embracing the mystery that lies ahead.
Quote from: justmeinoz on June 07, 2012, 04:23:51 AM
As Peky posted the BNST area of the Hypothalamus is different in males and females. That difference is formed at around 8 weeks gestation and that is that. If the body doesn't match we happen. Other than that it is a question of how you identify in the innermost core of your self.
Karen.
I like this answer, Very good point too. But really also reinforces the fact its in the brain. Didn't some crazy doctors years ago try electric shock therapy on gay people - IDK if any trans people, to see if they could be cured ?!! Remember reading some thing like this anyway ! I am not sure I buy it at all, that its down to hormones, that is part of the body development rly, not the mind ? but it obviously can influence moods and attitudes to things too.
I think you are who you are, and its a real mix, some people don't identify themselves with any gender at all, while others could be argued, that they have been conditioned to think that way about their birth gender. Is it like nurture, or nature ? TBH, My mother or father, 'never' encouraged me to behave like a girl or think like one. I was always that way anyway. So the inner me has always been female. I put that down to the fact that mentally, in my brain its always been that way. ^^
Why beat around the bush, there is no answer.
But what is sex-type is probably more well defined in biology terms. If using group theoretic math, then A & B are different sex-type, if A&B can theoretically produce an offspring.
One peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena), which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways :) Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.
I hope that is some curious information, even though it doesn't encompass your actual question.
Quote from: anita on June 19, 2012, 10:50:13 AMOne peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena), which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways :) Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.
Anita... why must you do this to me? :-\ :(
Quote from: anita on June 19, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
We can only amaze at the diversity of world.
We can just, can't we.
Talking about diversity, my answer to
'What makes you male or female?' is nothing, which is why I'm androgyne.
Well from a sociological point of view society has organized itself male and female sociological roles which can be represented by two intersecting circles in a Venn diagram. Strongly identifying with and needing to be an integral part of the feminine circle would mean you were a woman and strongly identifying with and needing to be an integral part of the male circle would mean you are a male. Strongly identifying with and only wishing to be in the intersection of both worlds without being in the male part or the female part would mean you were more gender neutral.
The fact that the majority of individuals in the female only part of the female circle have the same body type with large breasts and a vagina and the majority of individuals in the male only part of the male circle have the other have penises and relatively flat chests identifies the body types for each sex. If you find that you identify with the part of the female only circle and have a penis and are flat chested you are transgender and are a woman in what has been defined as a male's body. And vice versa.
This is the point of paradigm I would present using my degree in Social Sciences with most hours in sociology.
I feel that I belong and need to be in the female only part of this Venn Diagram and that would make me a female from the paradigm of my argument.
The scientific explanation of gender being based on the brains structure, I feel does play a part. Additionally, I feel that there is something subconscious about it that science has yet to explain. Like something eating at you until you find the right words for it and then it clicks. Often times it's something noticeable to the people around you primarily those that are close to you. (For instance, when I came out to others before I began transitioning, they would often say they could sort of tell.) I do feel that social constructs do have some part in defining gender, but it's to a much lesser degree-- mainly, with those odd unwritten rules and not so much whether you played with dolls or trucks.
Quote from: anita on June 19, 2012, 10:50:13 AM
Why beat around the bush, there is no answer.
But what is sex-type is probably more well defined in biology terms. If using group theoretic math, then A & B are different sex-type, if A&B can theoretically produce an offspring.
One peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena), which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways :) Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.
I hope that is some curious information, even though it doesn't encompass your actual question.
Of course there is always an answer! Perhaps we do not know yet all the details, and the answer may evolve to be more complicated that once thought, or may be even be very simple.
It is in the human nature to seek answer, otherwise we still be believing that the world is in top of some elephants and turtles, or that earth is flat. We shall never surround to not knowing!
Not everything need to have an answer. There exists statements that can be formulated, for which a proof nor a disproof need to exist -- Kurt Godel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems#Second_incompleteness_theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems#Second_incompleteness_theorem)
But this question might have an answer :), agree no harm in investigating.
Quote from: anita on June 20, 2012, 01:03:09 PM
Not everything need to have an answer. There exists statements that can be formulated, for which a proof nor a disproof need to exist -- Kurt Godel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems#Second_incompleteness_theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems#Second_incompleteness_theorem)
True, but only for the language of mathematics, not true for the natural sciences (physics, chemistry, biology), the rest, well, they are almost metaphysical
Something is provable if it can be derived from the axioms of the mathematical system. If you apply that to a mind, then the mathematical system is the brain and everything it's ever interacted with (which covers a pretty big chunk of the universe, actually), the rules of the system are the laws of physics, and the axioms are the initial conditions. So.. if something happens, then that's proof that it can happen. Gödel's theorem just means there are states that the system can never reach even though they're technically possible (if it applies at all in this case.. the universe is Turing complete though, which makes it a powerful enough system, right? Assuming it's computable...). That's not actually very surprising, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gender...
Quote from: BlueSloth on June 20, 2012, 07:25:49 PM
Something is provable if it can be derived from the axioms of the mathematical system. If you apply that to a mind, then the mathematical system is the brain and everything it's ever interacted with (which covers a pretty big chunk of the universe, actually), the rules of the system are the laws of physics, and the axioms are the initial conditions. So.. if something happens, then that's proof that it can happen. Gödel's theorem just means there are states that the system can never reach even though they're technically possible (if it applies at all in this case.. the universe is Turing complete though, which makes it a powerful enough system, right? Assuming it's computable...). That's not actually very surprising, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gender...
I love your mind! Yet, we have to consider that even numbers are man made and we have since discovered that numbers can be manipulated and that means numbers are NOT absolute as was once thought.
I have no idea. :(
If it's a brain thing, then I wish I could get a brain scan so I could know for sure, though I'm afraid I wouldn't like what I learned. :(
Quote from: Trixie on June 22, 2012, 08:23:01 PM
I have no idea. :(
If it's a brain thing, then I wish I could get a brain scan so I could know for sure, though I'm afraid I wouldn't like what I learned. :(
Coming soon!!!
Besides Genitalia we are all born with Masculine and Feminine Principles; "Androgynous" is not a sexuality it's a way of life be yourself. Androgynous is 1, Androgynous is everything in the organic world manifesting both genders–there is always the Masculine present in the Feminine form, and vice versa #Duality. Androgynous is the mind containing both a male and female part, and for "complete satisfaction and happiness," the two must live in harmony. The androgynous mindtransmits emotion without impedimentit is naturally creative, incandescent and undivided ,Shakespeare is a fine model of this. remember that androgyny does not imply a total absence of gender, complete fusion that obliterates any gender-consciousness =frees the mind. A good cooperation of the dual energies would create positivity and prevent imbalanced emotions from emerging. #BeHappy. Happiness is a main characteristic of the androgynous flow. And those who hold such a flow are skilled in being happy. #BeHappy. Quotes From the lovely Virgina Wolf and Samuel Taylor Coleridge "The truth is, a great mind must be androgynous. 1 September 1832." meaning the unification of the left side of the Brain and the unity of the right side of the Brain gives you the complete satisfaction of Happiness. so as you can see I am both which= 1
follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/#!/androgynyscents. Have a great day.
Quote from: Androgynous on June 24, 2012, 11:56:42 AM
Besides Genitalia we are all born with Masculine and Feminine Principles; "Androgynous" is not a sexuality it's a way of life be yourself. Androgynous is 1, Androgynous is everything in the organic world manifesting both genders–there is always the Masculine present in the Feminine form, and vice versa #Duality. Androgynous is the mind containing both a male and female part, and for "complete satisfaction and happiness," the two must live in harmony. The androgynous mindtransmits emotion without impedimentit is naturally creative, incandescent and undivided ,Shakespeare is a fine model of this. remember that androgyny does not imply a total absence of gender, complete fusion that obliterates any gender-consciousness =frees the mind. A good cooperation of the dual energies would create positivity and prevent imbalanced emotions from emerging. #BeHappy. Happiness is a main characteristic of the androgynous flow. And those who hold such a flow are skilled in being happy. #BeHappy. Quotes From the lovely Virgina Wolf and Samuel Taylor Coleridge "The truth is, a great mind must be androgynous. 1 September 1832." meaning the unification of the left side of the Brain and the unity of the right side of the Brain gives you the complete satisfaction of Happiness. so as you can see I am both which= 1
follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/#!/androgynyscents. Have a great day.
Very respectfully confess that due to my ignorance this ^ sound like poppy cock
Nah, not poppycock exactly, easily sum uppable.
'The union of opposites is the ultimate end'.
The union of opposites in this case being male/female and right brain/left brain.
I don't exactly agree, but some people like it. Also, the whole unity thing spread all the way into paragraphing and sentence structure, which doesn't aid readability.
it's impossible to say. i think it really boils down to whatever you feel you are.