What makes you male or female?

[Edge]

lol Erin.
Chronic depression is an illness, yes. Sadness is not. Personally, I like feeling sadness because I can feel the difference between sadness and depression and I can feel that sadness is healthy. I do admit I'm a little weird though.
Anyway, I also probably have a weird opinion since I used to suffer from chronic depression and I wouldn't change that because it taught me how much I love life and how much I will fight to live. That's a good trade off in my book. I suppose not everyone sees it that way although I don't understand why not.

[Nicolas]

Although I do wish to have been born in a body which was congruent with my mind... in that same breath I stop and think that had it not been for my experience/struggles I wouldn't be the person I am today. Which is not only FTM but also understanding, compassionate, insightful, etc. I have a friend who is years post-transition and lives happily as the man he always was but wouldn't go back and change a thing even if it meant being born biologically male.

It is difficult for me to say, really. Part of me does wish to have been born biologically male but I know it would change my character completely. And I don't know if I would jeopardize that.

[A]

I guess my wording was wrong. By chronic sadness, I meant depression. I have never felt any such "healthy sadness" from transsexualism. To be honest, it only brings a load of poop if you ask me.

Nicolas: You wouldn't miss what you'd never had. Also, transsexualism doesn't necessarily bring such personality traits. 1. it may have less to do with yours than you think and 2. I've seen many examples of the contrary, with it seeming to have brought very nasty personality traits.

[BlueSloth]

lol Erin.
Chronic depression is an illness, yes. Sadness is not. Personally, I like feeling sadness because I can feel the difference between sadness and depression and I can feel that sadness is healthy. I do admit I'm a little weird though.
Anyway, I also probably have a weird opinion since I used to suffer from chronic depression and I wouldn't change that because it taught me how much I love life and how much I will fight to live. That's a good trade off in my book. I suppose not everyone sees it that way although I don't understand why not.

I know what you mean, but I strongly disagree about it being a good trade off.  I feel like I lost a big chunk of a decade to depression.

I do agree that sadness is definitely healthy, and is a fundamental part of how minds work.  The whole point of it is to be avoided, though.  Negative emotions are bad by definition... they're the very essence of badness.  The whole reason they're necessary for a functioning mind is to give the mind something to avoid.

Messing with fetuses in the womb is a complicated moral issue though, and I'm not sure I want to say it's a good idea...  it seems like it is, but then again some people say the same thing about doing surgery on intersex babies, so...  hmm. 

[Romeo Seeks Ophelia]

I know what your asking, it's how to put it. OK I started cross-dressing when I was only (4) and this continued till I was (14). I liked it, I felt good inside, and well I grew up surrounded by girls I mean (15 to 20) of them and they always asked me to be one of the girls kinda thing which felt completely normal considering I only had one friend who was also male. Anywho I liked it but on the inside (my soul) which I believe is who is thinking right now as I type this......truthfully I guess I grew out of it, no that's wrong I didn't out grow anything I just finally found out after many painful years of mentally abusing myself that I was a man and when I had my first experience with a TS girl I knew then positively that inside my soul I knew she was a woman/girl and I was the man and it was fab to finally have that piece of the puzzle solve my dilemma......I also want to give to all of you my idea and insight that I believe skin, and bone do not make a man or woman it's all you the soul who is reaching out to find your identity, I mean sure it took a TS woman for me to realise the truth about who I was but I also knew (sorta) that I was the man because I was so freakin turned on by her advances.............when I say her I mean that beautiful woman who helped me free my mind & soul.

[Nicolas]

......I also want to give to all of you my idea and insight that I believe skin, and bone do not make a man or woman it's all you the soul who is reaching out to find your identity, I mean sure it took a TS woman for me to realise the truth about who I was but I also knew (sorta) that I was the man because I was so freakin turned on by her advances.............when I say her I mean that beautiful woman who helped me free my mind & soul.

Hi Romeo, thanks so much for chiming in and sharing your views. I quoted the above because I'm curious if you feel that your masculinity and you being male is linked to the attraction you had for her, a woman.

It is hard for me to put into words what I feel makes me a man. Of course there are those very important variables which have been mentioned - about brain chemistry, etc. But putting that aside, what else makes me feel male and not female? It is a bit difficult to answer without seeming to be embracing patriarchal views which have been drilled into all of us, women in particular. But I like and embrace certain gender roles. I come from a Hispanic background and to me it is something I feel, as a man, is my duty. Such as doing the heavy lifting, opening the doors, pulling out chairs, etc. Of course this is not to say a woman should not do such things, so I truly hope I am not coming across as such. I think instead of embracing gender roles, I would be more accurate by saying that I embrace chivalry. And on a personal level I feel that linked with my masculinity and gender identification.

[Elizabeth K]

Well - me talking here, but the silly, stupid, obvious answer?  Self Gender Identity (as opposed to Self Sexual Identity) makes you a man or a woman (perhaps best said male or female).

What is your gender?  What you KNOW is your gender, that is what!  For me?  When a child I thought of myself as a person.  When I was about 3 1/2, I discovered there was a 'difference' between people -  boys and girls, and then after I thought about it?  Girl - yup - definitely a girl.  At that age nobody tells you much about sex and genitalia - so that did not enter into my thoughts.  I was a girl - I thought and acted and felt just like my grandmothers, my aunts, my mom, and my sisters.  I was a girl.  I mean dad and my grandfathers and my uncle were okay, but they thought and acted differently from me.

Yes - I was a girl!  So I said so.

DANG that caused a reaction or two - HA - You all know the story after that!

Lizzy

[Julie Wilson]

Putting aside genitalia. What makes you a man/woman?

My experience is that what makes me a man/woman are people's interactions and perceptions of me.  Around my parents I am a pretend woman.  At work last night everyone was telling each other I am a man pretending to be a woman.  Today I have no job. 

Basically interactions for me.  I used to hang out with a neighbor who seemed nice and accepting but later on he revealed to me that he could never be romantic with someone like me because he isn't gay.  Previously he was always telling me how to him I was all woman.  That is why I find acceptance so disappointing.  Interactions.

[AbraCadabra]

We are female in OUR heads – though THIS, by a far shot, does not mean we are female in OTHER people's heads.

I think also that I'm, - what Noey so aptly called "a pretend woman" - with a lot of people, and really with ALL ... that know my history. ALL. The lot of them.

Yes, it is not easy at all for others to simply wipe the slate and not remember what we appeared to have been then.

Even with my ex- (the one I was married to and have a child with), herself having been BI / for a short while acting on it - and VERY accepting of me in EVERY way I can think of, has to say (slip of the tongue...):
"There'd have to be something wrong with someone who gets (inimately) involved with any trans person"
I.e. the way I got it - They'd have to have some 'defect' like e.g. being homosexual in the closet, or having some weird fetish of sorts, maybe?
Now this from a female I was married to for 12 years and is still otherwise very affectionate and caring towards me. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Now the above is my experience about being female – tough titties I say, and I so WISH that for many of us it be NOT like that.

Take care and enjoy life,
Axélle

[GhostTown11]

Now that I think about it, the more I am on hormones and the more changes I see, I feel less like a 'girl' and more like a person. Also, I get called miss, or young lady, or "nena, chica, nina" (I live in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood) a clear majority of the time and I have short hair and am presenting completely male. I'm actually starting to feel better about my body and rethinking if I should go wholesale on transition.

[anita]

"There'd have to be something wrong with someone who gets (inimately) involved with any trans person"
I.e. the way I got it - They'd have to have some 'defect' like e.g. being homosexual in the closet, or having some weird fetish of sorts, maybe?
Now this from a female I was married to for 12 years and is still otherwise very affectionate and caring towards me. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Now the above is my experience about being female – tough titties I say, and I so WISH that for many of us it be NOT like that.

I wonder, yes, "trans-romantic" seem to be the textbook entry. Not that I agree with such theories. Even if I was not a transgendered person, being with me is not easy . I guess every person is unique, and getting attached always have challenges, which is why most of us go through several heart breaks before finding the right person.

[Julie Wilson]

The trick to finding the right person is being the right person.

[Dawn Heart]

Great thread!

I think the real test for me was many years ago when I fell in love with a close male friend who was "involved" with me and me with him in one of these relationships where he wasn't sure whether or not to pursue his other side. He knew he loved me, and we were close. We had been through so much together already, but he was off and on with our relationship. He knew how much I loved him and felt for him because I had no problems telling him. I was patient and supportive, but in the end he left and we haven't had contact since.

The conflict with himself was too much to handle and so he turned his frustration on me, and used some rather hurtful words towards me. Know what though? I never held a grudge. I only felt compassion for him. I only felt heart-broken while also telling myself that he just needs time. Time has passed and I can only hope he is happy where ever he is, and with what ever life he has built for himself. This isn't a guilt trip towards him on my part, nor is it sarcasm. If he is happy in the world, then I'm happy and at peace.

This whole fiasco is what ended what I was hoping would be my attempt at transition to being a woman. I was coming so close to telling him and actually starting transition with him by my side. Now I am at the point where I feel I can move towards that transition again. So, knowing I am a woman, for me, came earlier on in my life but was strongest at that time in the past. I knew when I was in love and I felt like it was very natural, and I felt good with it. That's what makes a man or a woman, I think, is knowing who you are and being secure with it, no matter what body you were born in.

It's embracing the mystery that lies ahead.

[Kitty_Babe]

As Peky posted the BNST area of the Hypothalamus is different in males and females.  That difference is formed at around 8 weeks gestation and that is that. If the body doesn't match we happen.  Other than that it is a question of how you identify in the innermost core of your self. 

Karen.

I like this answer, Very good point too. But really also reinforces the fact its in the brain. Didn't some crazy doctors years ago try electric shock therapy on gay people - IDK if any trans people, to see if they could be cured ?!! Remember reading some thing like this anyway ! I am not sure I buy it at all, that its down to hormones, that is part of the body development rly, not the mind ? but it obviously can influence moods and attitudes to things too.

I think you are who you are, and its a real mix, some people don't identify themselves with any gender at all, while others could be argued, that they have been conditioned to think that way about their birth gender. Is it like nurture, or nature ? TBH, My mother or father, 'never' encouraged me to behave like a girl or think like one. I was always that way anyway. So the inner me has always been female. I put that down to the fact that mentally, in my brain its always been that way. ^^

[anita]

Why beat around the bush, there is no answer.

But what is sex-type is probably more well defined in biology terms. If using group theoretic math, then A & B are different sex-type, if A&B can theoretically produce an offspring.

One peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena, which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.

I hope that is some curious information, even though it doesn't encompass your actual question.

[Nicolas]

One peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena, which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.

Anita... why must you do this to me?     

[Pica Pica]

We can only amaze at the diversity of world.

We can just, can't we.

Talking about diversity, my answer to 'What makes you male or female?' is nothing, which is why I'm androgyne.

[michelle]

Well from a sociological point of view society has organized itself male and female sociological roles which can be represented by two intersecting circles in a Venn diagram.   Strongly identifying with and needing to be an integral part of the feminine circle would mean you were a woman and strongly identifying with and needing to be an integral part of the male circle would mean you are a male.   Strongly identifying with and only wishing to be in the intersection of both worlds without being in the male part or the female part would mean you were more gender neutral.

The fact that the majority of individuals in the female only part of the female circle have the same body type with large breasts and a vagina and the majority of individuals in the male only part of the male circle have the other have penises and relatively flat chests identifies the body types for each sex.    If you find that you identify with the part of the female only circle and have a penis and are flat chested you are transgender and are a woman in what has been defined as a male's body.    And vice versa.

This is the point of paradigm I would present using my degree in Social Sciences  with most hours in sociology.

I feel that I belong and need to be in the female only part of this Venn Diagram and that would make me a female from the paradigm of my argument.

[no-time-to-panic]

The scientific explanation of gender being based on the brains structure, I feel does play a part. Additionally, I feel that there is something subconscious about it that science has yet to explain. Like something eating at you until you find the right words for it and then it clicks. Often times it's something noticeable to the people around you primarily those that are close to you. (For instance, when I came out to others before I began transitioning, they would often say they could sort of tell.) I do feel that social constructs do have some part in defining gender, but it's to a much lesser degree-- mainly, with those odd unwritten rules and not so much whether you played with dolls or trucks.

[peky]

Why beat around the bush, there is no answer.

But what is sex-type is probably more well defined in biology terms. If using group theoretic math, then A & B are different sex-type, if A&B can theoretically produce an offspring.

One peculiar protozoa, called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahymena, which has 7 possible sexes, and can have mate in C(7,2) = 7 * 6/ 2 = 21 different ways Well that is an extreme, but we can only amaze at the diversity of world.

I hope that is some curious information, even though it doesn't encompass your actual question.

Of course there is always an answer! Perhaps we do not know yet all the details, and the answer may evolve to be more complicated that once thought, or may be even be very simple.

It is in the human nature to seek answer, otherwise we still be believing that the world is in top of some elephants and turtles, or that earth is flat. We shall never surround to not knowing!