What the hell is going on with that guy??
His name basically exploded all over my tumblr dash.
Discuss.
I have no idea who that is.
Then again, I don't even bother using Tumblr.
More than one person is coming out and saying that Ira Gray sexually abused them. I have read things he's said and things the victims said. I'm on the side of the victims. He has (according to posts by the victims on tumblr) done what he thought of as "checking in" but it was the victims saying no, him acting all sad, asking again shortly after to see if they changed their mind and again and again and again. That's not what checking in really is. He pretty much didn't listen to the needs of the people he was with, and acted on what he wanted vs what others wanted.
In one instance I believe there was alcohol involved, and the victim being tired and not wanting sex.
People are generally bad with consent because of the culture we live in, but when we do things without consent, or try to coerce people we need to be held accountable.
And he's no the only trans man/FTM/AFAB trans person who was praised by other trans men/FTMs/AFAB trans people and has sexually abused somebody.
Can we get a trigger warning for sexual abuse in the title?
I read his blog. http://www.iradaltongray.com/ (http://www.iradaltongray.com/) He is very cogent on gq matters. I don't follow it everyday, and I don't (usually) read tumblr. It didn't make a lot of sense to me but I read his comments today. I think if it is quick and dirty and so on, it's going to "explode on tumblr". OTOH, just because it is exploding on tumblr doesn't make it false either. Yikes it's a serious charge. I didn't care for his comments on the blog about "checking in" and other euphemisms (no is no, afaic).
I don't know about his guilt or innocence.
--Jay Jay
Actually, here's the thing:
Unless it's been established that messing around like that is okay, then it's not okay. I've had former partners guilt and threaten me into doing things I wasn't okay with doing like Ira did to his previous partners, and that's not right. He talks a lot about "good consent", and this is what pisses me off. If someone is uneasy or not totally clear on whether or not they want to do things, I back off. It's a personal rule. If someone doesn't like what I'm doing, or seems unsure, or is ASLEEP(which is common sense here, guys), I back the hell off. I'm siding with the victims here, because I would be furious if I woke up to someone's crotch in my face. Hell, if I were in the shoes of each of his victims, I would have reacted more explosively. If you're sharing a bed with me, then you need to respect my boundaries. Ira clearly didn't respect the boundaries of any of the people he spent time with. You don't manipulate someone into having sex with you, that's completely messed up. You don't cry or act like it's this horrible thing if someone panics and says the wrong thing to get you away from them, you GET OFF OF THEM and LEAVE THEM ALONE.
It's a big deal because Ira acts as a mentor to trans* and GLBQ folks, and is technically in a position of leadership with groups like The Self Made Men. If he's honestly done all this crap to his former partners, he needs to step down. I've supported some of the groups he participates in previously, and I(among many others) don't feel okay in continuing to support these groups if someone like him remains in "power", so to speak.
Pressuring someone into banging you is rape, because you have to drag a "yes" out of them. It's wrong, and I think Ira needs to be expelled from every trans* group he participates in as a leader. Rapists shouldn't be mentors or leaders.
EDIT: Looks like The Self Made Men severed ties with Ira. That's a little better.
I added a trigger warning (:
I think it's serious charges.
You can't just yell out rapist or pedophile.
For example, I'm being called a rapist now on tumblr.
Because I said I could do whatever, whenever with Joey and I was grateful for that.
(Well once we get this distance crap sorted out v____v)
She even wrote a post on top of mine saying she completely approved xD
And I'm still being called out a rapist.
Just to show people are quick to judge.
Everyone that knows me, knows I would kill for Joey.
Yet I'm a rapist because she gave me permission I could do whatever, whenever?
I think rape was called out and used to easily in all this.
Thing is, what happens between you and Joey is consensual. You guys apparently joke and whatever, and you have understandings of each other's boundaries. If you BOTH are okay with what goes down, then that's fine. What happened with Ira was totally different. Not one, but several people put their issues with him out there as a warning for others. Ira had previously been accusing them of horrible things, and they offered their half of the story. It's fair, honestly.
I told people that, but I'm still a rapist v_v
Oh well.
Ira screwed up.
Big time. If I was next to him, I'd slap him for making such stupid decision.
But I won't personally label him a rapist.
His whole life is on the line and serious thinking and evaluating needs to be done before putting such a label on someone.
Quote from: Jayr on June 10, 2012, 04:34:14 PM
I added a trigger warning (:
I think it's serious charges.
You can't just yell out rapist or pedophile.
For example, I'm being called a rapist now on tumblr.
Because I said I could do whatever, whenever with Joey and I was grateful for that.
(Well once we get this distance crap sorted out v____v)
She even wrote a post on top of mine saying she completely approved xD
And I'm still being called out a rapist.
Just to show people are quick to judge.
Everyone that knows me, knows I would kill for Joey.
Yet I'm a rapist because she gave me permission I could do whatever, whenever?
I think rape was called out and used to easily in all this.
So it'd be okay if you wanted to chop off Joey's arm? I'm just giving an extreme example. You can't do whatever, whenever...you're just thinking of things within reason that you probably are both okay with. There are a lot of things Joey might not be okay with that you haven't discussed, or haven't thought of. This is part of what consent is...talking things through.
That's the thing, I don't want to cut off her arm.
And I don't want to hurt her in anyway she doesn't want to be hurt.
*cough* Some pain is fun.
She trusts me on that, and knows I wouldn't want anything bad done to her.
Which is why I have full permission.
It goes the other way around too btw.
Ira...I don't read tumblr because I mostly find drama there and I'm not fond of drama and name calling but I think I've heard that name before and it wasn't in a good way then either.
I won't call him a rapist, that's serious allegations but if someone is even grey about consent, you should wait. Oy to the vey. Hasn't there been enough of these situations to make people stop and think?
Quote from: Frank on June 10, 2012, 05:13:25 PM
Ira...I don't read tumblr because I mostly find drama there and I'm not fond of drama and name calling but I think I've heard that name before and it wasn't in a good way then either.
I won't call him a rapist, that's serious allegations but if someone is even grey about consent, you should wait. Oy to the vey. Hasn't there been enough of these situations to make people stop and think?
+1
Except for the not reading tumblr part of course.
Quote from: Zerro on June 10, 2012, 03:48:20 PM
Pressuring someone into banging you is rape, because you have to drag a "yes" out of them. It's wrong, and I think Ira needs to be expelled from every trans* group he participates in as a leader. Rapists shouldn't be mentors or leaders.
EDIT: Looks like The Self Made Men severed ties with Ira. That's a little better.
I dont think that pressuring someone nessesarry is rape, if you stalking,threatning someone into having sex when they don't want to then its rape but we are grown up to say no, even if it means we need to do it alot of times or very clearly..
I had people plaguing me alot of times to have sex, I had to refuse them 3-4 times in 5 min and even got offered money,
not really the way I like it to go, but if I had said yes, I still wouldn't consider it rape, unless some threatning busniss of any kind would come in the way.
Not saying its okay what he do, I dont know the case to speak clearly about it, but respect is general.
---------
Jayr: dont worry im also considered a rapist.
Wow. Natkat o_o
You stole the words from my mouth!
What I wanted to say but didn't know how too.
Thank you.
-------------------
At least I'm not alone.
That's nice to know.
As previously mentioned, he's a rapist who's unfortunately a touch famous amongst radical/activist/trans communities. He used to hold a position of power in The Self Made Men, but a few trans people (me included) got him kicked out of there.
Also, all the people in this thread calling things that are absolutely rape 'not rape' are disturbing me a bit here.
Quote from: Natkat on June 10, 2012, 05:19:58 PM
I dont think that pressuring someone nessesarry is rape, if you stalking,threatning someone into having sex when they don't want to then its rape but we are grown up to say no, even if it means we need to do it alot of times or very clearly..
I had people plaguing me alot of times to have sex, I had to refuse them 3-4 times in 5 min and even got offered money,
not really the way I like it to go, but if I had said yes, I still wouldn't consider it rape, unless some threatning busniss of any kind would come in the way.
Not saying its okay what he do, I dont know the case to speak clearly about it, but respect is general.
---------
Jayr: dont worry im also considered a rapist.
So locking someone in a room and refusing to let them leave until you do what they want is not rape? Crying and hitting that person, then choking them after they try to leave, then holding them down and doing things to them while they're semi unconscious isn't rape? Then crying after that person is conscious and trying to pin the blame on them and make them about to be the bad guy until they're too afraid to say no or get help isn't abuse? That's what happened to me, not as extreme as what happened to the people Ira hurt, but it's still pressuring and adding force to a messed up situation. I'm pretty sure it's rape if you don't want to or you're not sure about it, and that person finds a way to make you anyway.
If somebody has sex with you, and that person is not in a full and total state of consciousness (so they can't be drunk or anything), or if they did not willingly consent the first time you asked, or the consent was not obvious, or if you were guilt-tripping them, or if they felt threatened by you, or if you didn't specifically get their consent before this specific sex act...you are a rapist.
It doesn't matter how ~radikewl~ you are or if you're a decent person outside of it. You are a rapist.
ZERRO! But they physically forced you, of course that's rape dude!
We're talking verbal pressuring here.
Stealthy...by your standards, I guess I'm a rapist.
o.o
Quote from: Jayr on June 10, 2012, 07:21:13 PMStealthy...by your standards, I guess I'm a rapist than.
o.o
'Fraid so. Too many people are, really.
Quote from: Stealthy on June 10, 2012, 07:25:56 PM
'Fraid so. Too many people are, really.
Seconding this.
One of the downsides of living in the culture where we do.
Well someone called me out and some other folks on their tumblr.
Sigh I'm on Susan's and they're talking about Ira Gray and everyone is being a rape apologist bastard (including ADMITTING THAT THEY'RE RAPISTS) *copy/pasted from their blog*
Say it directly to me, not behind my back or I'll find out.
And I'm not going to mention your name. You can say it if you want.
If somebody's going to admit that they're a freaking RAPIST...
And hell, I wasn't even thinking of you specifically. More "holy ->-bleeped-<- people are admitting that they're rapists". I don't register screen names in situations like that.
Quote from: Zerro on June 10, 2012, 07:13:51 PM
So locking someone in a room and refusing to let them leave until you do what they want is not rape? Crying and hitting that person, then choking them after they try to leave, then holding them down and doing things to them while they're semi unconscious isn't rape? Then crying after that person is conscious and trying to pin the blame on them and make them about to be the bad guy until they're too afraid to say no or get help isn't abuse? That's what happened to me, not as extreme as what happened to the people Ira hurt, but it's still pressuring and adding force to a messed up situation. I'm pretty sure it's rape if you don't want to or you're not sure about it, and that person finds a way to make you anyway.
you are misunderstanding my point.
---
I say that pressuring to have sex, isnt nessesarry rape. By that.
You can presure someone to have sex where it won't be considered rape.
as soon as as you emotionally or physically start to treatning a person/do actual harm to get sex, then it starts to be rape I will consider what you wrotte rape.
But when you are in pressured but you still are able to refuse without those, its not rape,
it can still be sexual harrasm thought.
Pressuring someone into having sex is a form of rape to me.
What did I tell you about this Ira Gray crap?
Drop it already.
I'm mad at you.
and you're not really a rapist, i gave you consent and the power over me from the beginning. Its different than raping or sexually harassing an innocent person.
Though I don't agree with some peoples definition of rape on here.
Way too much drama going on about this.
Which is another reason why im so embarrassed of my community, AND also why I don't use tumblr. Lol.
Done.
Dude: ''Babe, I'm horny tonight wanna have sex.''
Chick: ''I'm not sure baby. I'm not really in the mood.''
Dude: ''Come on, you're so sexy. I know you want it ;3''
Chick: ''*grins* Alright!''
RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE
She was pressured, and if they did not willingly consent the first time you asked
v_v
Yeah..okay.
Quote from: Aeris on June 10, 2012, 07:57:07 PM
What did I tell you about this Ira Gray crap?
Drop it already.
I'm mad at you.
and you're not really a rapist, i gave you consent and the power over me from the beginning. Its different than raping or sexually harassing an innocent person.
Even though I don't agree with some peoples definition of rape on here.
Way too much drama going on about this.
Which is another reason why im so embarrassed of my community, AND also why I don't use tumblr. Lol.
Done.
O_O
Yes, ma'm.
Consent gained through duress or manipulation is not consent.
Quote from: Aeris on June 10, 2012, 07:57:07 PM
Which is another reason why im so embarrassed of my community, AND also why I don't use tumblr. Lol.
I don't use tumblr and i'm like the biggest drama-queen ever...
LOL :D
Maybe this threat is more about where peoples limits goes, than what exactly is rape.
people are diffrent, and have diffrent limits, what is Okay, for me, Is stickly forbidden for other, or opposite.
Rape is always a touchy subject for a lot of people and I Do Not think its okay to pressure anyone into sex for any reason making jokes or whatever is one thing I even joke with my best friend when were drinking that I am just too damn sexy she can't help but want me ect... but its all in good fun because even though I know she likes me that way she knows not to take me seriously when drinking. But if someone says no, no means no. I have had a few bad experiences where people didn't understand no meant no and I was forced into things kicking and hitting and even sadly i admit crying screaming no. I ended up pregnant from it too despite the fact i don't like men. I know that is obviously a little more extreme but even if I didn't kick and scream and hit ect... I had said no and they did it anyways that = rape No means No and thats it. I didn't read this specific stuff personally but I do want to add in that No Always means No
Or more like this:
Person A: I want to do ____ to you.
Person B: No.
Person A: But it will make our relationship better/make everything awesome/you can't say no if you've never tried it/etc
Person B: I really don't know if I'm okay with this.
Person A: -cries/whines/subtle manipulation- If you don't do this, I will _______
Person B: I don't WANT to continue this right now
Person A: Then say yes or I'll keep going on about it
Person B: I don't know if I want to do this.
Person A: -starts doing said thing anyway- If you talk, I will make this worse/you will ruin my life/emotional blackmail etc
Person B will most likely end up consenting to get the other person off their back.
I would consider that rape.
And what Zerro described is what happened in the Ira Gray case, basically-well, it's what happened to e.w., I'm not sure what happened to Lauren. (He also misgendered the f**k out of e.w..)
This is such a touchy topic I'm surprised it hasn't got into a full blown fight here. While I'm here, can anyone tell me if Ira has actually gotten into legal trouble? Apparently he's still walking around so...
Ugh, Jayr.
This is not a point worth fussing over.
*facepalm*
e.w. and Lauren aren't pursuing legal action. It'd put both of them through the wringer, and Ira would just walk free anyway. (The legal system re: rape is messed up.)
It's time for this thread to come to a graceful end. I am locking it.