Hi everyone, I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen. Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound? Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor? Just how much will I really change?
Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone, I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen. Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound? Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor? Just how much will I really change?
Fact is you can't trust the replies you get to questions like this, placebo effect means it can range from nothing to extremely profound.
If you don't expect yourself to change very much mentally, as I didn't, it might well not be very significant.
Personally, my brain hasn't really seemed to do much different than before hrt and I've been doped up on estrogen for almost 9 years. I think in a lot of ways transition and hormones helps a person to drop some inhibitions on feminine feelings and behavior that they built up over years, so things may not change so much as just being able to really express who they were all along.
As for a feminine manor, I would suggest hiring a good interior designer.
Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone, I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen. Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound? Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor? Just how much will I really change?
The rewiring is very individual specific. In may case some things changed and something did not. Shortly after starting HRT, a sense of profound calmenss invaded my soul, very pleasent indeed; that is considering that I am a Hurricane, you know type A personality.
My perception of beauty changed somehow so as to notice some nuances that before went unnoticed.
Emotions, emotion, emotions. I have always been very emotional, romantic, dreamer, well, all those characteristics have been enhanced and magnified.
Talk, talk, talk, another "virtue" that has become uber enhanced. I used to talk to my daughters, now we are chatter boxes, LOL
I look at the boys with a different eye, but still girls are my main cookie, ;)
Sugar, sugar, sugar. I used to be a meat and meat kind of gal, now, did you said chocolate?
I have never thought of myself as "seductive," now I enjoy the lascivious looks of the boys, hum. Nice to be eye candy.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 18, 2012, 01:21:00 PM
Fact is you can't trust the replies you get to questions like this, placebo effect means it can range from nothing to extremely profound.
If you don't expect yourself to change very much mentally, as I didn't, it might well not be very significant.
Brain rewiring by HRT, in people with GID, is a medical fact.
Quote from: peky on July 18, 2012, 01:33:58 PM
Brain rewiring by HRT, in people with GID, is a medical fact.
I didn't say it wasn't. The brain is a plastic organ, constantly changing and being influenced. More accurate is to say the brain structures shift in proportions to more female patterns, which is I suppose just another way of saying rewiring is going on. But I digress.
I didn't say it has no brain effect. What I meant to convey is that regardless of the physiological processes you are undergoing, your subjective experience of them can vary so wildly that in my opinion, a lot of peoples experiences are more placebo than biological influences caused by the HRT itself. Maybe I'm wrong and for some reason HRT has more neurological effect on some than others. Maybe some peoples neurology is more already feminized than others, it's too complicated a subject to say for any individual person.
But ultimately it comes back to the same thing, it can vary from virtually nothing to very profound, whatever the reason behind it may be.
The placebo phenomenon is a very real medical fact too, capable of creating seemingly 100% real experiences. The line between chemistry and psychology, perception and reality, is very very blurry.
It is highly likely that if you were in some way expecting a profound mental change of some sort, your mind will create one regardless of it being the drug or not.
I became a much better driver.... and it seems like my aim improved when firing left-handed from a moving vehicle.
Thanks everyone for your input. I guess I'm just a tad bit scared about the unknown path ahead and about what I can expect. As well as how profound the changes I might incur.
FWIW http://aebrain.blogspot.com (http://aebrain.blogspot.com) is written by an Aussie (iirc) rocket scientist with a late-onset intersex condition who transitioned mid-life. She's got a great scientifically-oriented mind, so you will find many links to research and articles if you browse her blog.
Quote from: Adrasteia on July 18, 2012, 02:40:28 PM
FWIW http://aebrain.blogspot.com (http://aebrain.blogspot.com) is written by an Aussie (iirc) rocket scientist with a late-onset intersex condition who transitioned mid-life. She's got a great scientifically-oriented mind, so you will find many links to research and articles if you browse her blog.
Zoe Brain is a software engineer, that does not qualifies her as a rocket scientist. There are no rocket engineers, the closer you can get is to have a PhD in propulsion engineering or aeronautical engineering. LOL
She seems to be more interested in intersex, nevertheless, she has a nice blog. Thaks for the link
You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.
As for the subject of the thread, I found that the hormones made me less aggressive, but then again it might have been that transitioning just made me less irritable about life in general.
I get terrible mood swings that may be verging on bipolar II...but really not sure yet. These existed before, but they come with more intensity now. I find if I recognise deeply negative thoughts as the results of mood swings it is easier to control them.
I've heard people telling me how much they like bright colours now...I can't tell any difference myself.
Like Peky, I like getting looked at....
I thought I would like men after taking hormones, but after a while they just made men smell funny to me (not all men, but a lot of them).
Uh well 9ish weeks in I can report 0 mental changes whatsoever.
Mind and body are pretty intertwined, so it can be a bit of a dead end trying to guess which changes (when there appear to be changes) are caused by endocrine changes, and which are caused by how we feel about changing, etc. etc. Enjoy the ride!
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 18, 2012, 01:47:34 PM
It is highly likely that if you were in some way expecting a profound mental change of some sort, your mind will create one regardless of it being the drug or not.
Lots of folks haven't a clue what is highly likely or not.
That is why it is better to share experiences than to lay down the facts.
for instance...
I remember back when I first started exploring transition and taking Internet hormones. I remember how I had to always know what the deal was. I remember thinking how a trans woman will always be trans and how not telling sexual partners right up front was a huge lie of omission. Because I was projecting and part of my male hormonal biology (etc.) equaled my having to always know what the "reality" was. I thought I could look at anyone else's situation and make an accurate judgment on it based upon my knowledge of reality and my willingness to look boldly at the facts.
The reality was I was full of myself (and full of crap).
Transition occurs on a biological, sociological, body and brain level and it can be pretty damn profound. It may not seem profound right away because it probably isn't. Transition didn't become notably profound to me until after I accidentally had sex with some guy without telling him first that I was an always trans transsexual woman and in that experience I accidentally found myself being wholly accepted as a woman. After that experience I had an epiphany. I was a woman. And I began to believe in myself as one on a very real level, one that came through experience, not through thinking.
What I realized after that was a person cannot transition and anticipate what is around the next corner. the reality is that some things are out of our control and we can put on our big girl panties and deal with it (when it happens). The fact is I could type in this box all day and it won't mean anything to anyone who hasn't had a relevant experience, one that he or she can relate from because little words on a website don't mean anything. Experiences mean everything.
It is highly likely (based on my having begun transition around 2000 and having been on websites like this for some time) that someone who is anticipating huge mental changes from transition is just as likely to be disappointed. The placebo effect may play a role in the very beginning of transition but after a while bull->-bleeped-<- gets old and people tire of fooling themselves. They run out of energy and who can have the same level of fascination and drive for something month after month, year after year.
I know some people are pretty good at fooling themselves but most often I honestly believe that people are best at fooling themselves into thinking they know what other people are experiencing when they haven't even had similar experiences.
I would say my mental changes have been pretty big. For instance... I am no longer aroused visually, say for instance porn. It doesn't matter how good the porn is, it does not affect me like it did prior to transition back before 2000 and the changes were gradual and welcome. I remember before transition when looking at porn it was like porn had a hold of something deep inside my chest, it had a power over me, a strong pull and I tended to be it's puppet. Now it has virtually zero power. I can recognize beauty but beauty or sensuality do not give me the drive to engage in sexual activity, except perhaps every nine or ten days perhaps. (I am single). I can look at really beautiful, amazing porn and then easily walk away (no effort or will involved) and do something like rake my yard or go for a walk and not even think about sex. Those are some pretty profound changes.
Also it may seem like I need to be right or like my opinion matters but really it doesn't. I do want to share my experience with people occasionally, because I think people should be open to possibilities but I will happily admit that I have been wrong about things and my being "right" about my own experiences doesn't equal being "right". It just equals my own experience. Feel free to have an entirely different experience. I will say however I don't think people are as complex as they like to think they are. And I don't believe we are all that different, maybe we are at different places in our lives and that can be huge. Different places, different situations... Makes for big differences, differences of opinion, etc.
And after I had sex without disclosure and had my epiphany (that I was female) and after some years went by (like seven years or so since that experience) I find myself where I am today.
And I have gotten to the point lately where I could give a toot what I am. Lately when my father uses my legal name I feel like it is all a big joke. Like I feel guilty that he is making an effort to remember my name and use the right pronouns because he has to make an effort. It doesn't come naturally to him at all and I should have moved away from here, suffered my losses and gotten over them and not wasted my life. But now I am stuck here as ever. And I have reduced myself to being the pretend woman that people have to make a conscious effort to use the right pronouns with. Just today someone I used to work with over fifteen years ago and have known for 25 years and who knew about my transition since I went full-time over seven years ago (a year after having SRS), he referred to me as 'he' twice in my presence. There is no reality in that.
I am so tired of other people's "reality". I wish they would all take their "reality" and stick it. They think they know what I feel and what I really am and they haven't got a clue in Hell. All they know is psychological projection.
And they don't change.
Their reality never changes.
It is always the same crap every day. "We have to pretend Noey is a woman, don't forget to use the right pronouns because it is so hard to remember."
Find your reality. Read Don Miguel Ruiz, 'The Four Agreements' if it helps and learn about psychological projection because it's HUGE and it is what makes the world go round and round the same old crap way.
QuoteProjection concerns externalizing the issues that we need to deal with ourselves. Usually we project onto others issues and problems that we need to address within ourselves, or are unable to manage properly. Projection is irresponsible behavior as we dump our problem onto somebody else. We justify these projections by blaming someone or something outside for the emotions we do not want to feel. We project our disappointments and problems onto other people, it is somehow their fault, we become a blamer. Ultimately it is the person who projects that loses, as they never really sort out their own problems. http://karlrwolfe.com/psychological-projection.html (http://karlrwolfe.com/psychological-projection.html)
I remember my dad when I was little telling me how gays had to experience such terrible humiliation in order to do the things they did. He reasoned that it was the terrible humiliation they experienced from their sex acts that caused them to hate themselves and commit suicide. Because my father was projecting his own feelings onto gays. He didn't realize that it was how Society treated gays that caused so much of their problems and not some sex act humiliation issue.
Some white folks over the years have projected their fears and hate onto black people, coming to the conclusion that black people hate whites, etc., because those white people couldn't own their own fear and hate so they project it into some other culture and that other culture (blacks, etc.) become a way for some whites to hate their hate by blaming someone else for having it instead of owning it and dealing with it.
On a forum like this sometimes we like to figure out what someone else's deal is. What their life is really like, how they are fooling themselves... When really perhaps we just haven't had that experience yet but instead of realizing that we haven't had that experience for ourselves we might try to deny someone else from having that experience. That way we don't have to own our own lack of experience because we just nullify someone else or try to discredit them or take away their experience by saying it is bunk.
Projection is huge.
Going back to my "epiphany" experience, the one that caused me to realize I was a woman, a female... Prior to that I used to say I was a woman all the time but it was a way to convince others I was a woman or protest my situation and my need to transition and be done with it.
Learning I was a woman became like climbing a tree. I learned quickly when I first began climbing trees what they felt like and I learned that if I let go I would fall to the ground. I learned there were certain rules. Sometimes when I am atop a very high building or bridge and I lean over the edge there is a very real sensation I feel like the marrow in my bones is aching because even if I am not thinking about it, my body knows and remembers that if I were to jump off that tall building or bridge there would be a very real result of that action. My being a woman is like that now. I could care less what other people think, I know I am a woman and honestly it isn't up for debate because it just doesn't matter. Someone else's belief wont change falling out of a tree and it won't change me. Some things just are. And some people can reason all they want and theorize all they want but when I lean over that guard rail my bones are going to ache and I am going to have a sensation in my chest because that's the reality of it. My being female is the same sort of reality. People can think they know better than me, they can think I am crazy, they can think that I am just the pathetic ->-bleeped-<- who wants to be called "she" but what they don't realize is I am done giving a rats ass. And it's the same about everything else.
Quote"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
QuoteGo confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler. ~Henry David Thoreau
When we are very quiet and do not determine what is or how things are possibilities may abound, the uncertainty factor can take effect and we can experience something new.
Quote from: Kadri on July 19, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.
As for the subject of the thread, I found that the hormones made me less aggressive, but then again it might have been that transitioning just made me less irritable about life in general.
I get terrible mood swings that may be verging on bipolar II...but really not sure yet. These existed before, but they come with more intensity now. I find if I recognise deeply negative thoughts as the results of mood swings it is easier to control them.
I've heard people telling me how much they like bright colours now...I can't tell any difference myself.
Like Peky, I like getting looked at....
I thought I would like men after taking hormones, but after a while they just made men smell funny to me (not all men, but a lot of them).
You and I, Girl! I thought it was just me. Before E men smell foul, I could not stand in close quarter with them, and the smell does not have to do with hygiene. Now, almost a year later, some of them do not smell bad! What does this mean? BTW my sense, already very kin, has been enhanced by E.
So, yeah, happy rewiring everybody!
Re: Noey's post and non-disclosure sex.
After SRS, even though I am a lesbian, I had several "test-runs" with men, no one ever questioned my status and this was incredibly empowering.
It was about nine months before I had my first "undisclosed sex" with a woman and this was even more empowering. After that, I stopped thinking of myself as being trans and just simply female.
As far as "mental changes" I remember noticing colors were more intense and I was more able to "stop and smell the roses." After awhile, I just started feeling more "normal."
Quote from: peky on July 18, 2012, 06:11:59 PM
Zoe Brain is a software engineer, that does not qualifies her as a rocket scientist. There are no rocket engineers, the closer you can get is to have a PhD in propulsion engineering or aeronautical engineering. LOL
Quote from: Kadri on July 19, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
You know, for some reason I thought she was a "rocket scientist" too...and I work less than ten minutes' walk from where she does. I guess the power of the words "rocket science" is more powerful than the truth sometimes.
That's what I get for posting in a rush! It's been a while since I followed her blog; I had much more time for perusing neuroscience articles when I worked for the gov't.
Wow... some good posts in here. Regarding 'mental changes', you're probably talking about perception or emotional change. I'll simply give my run down of what's happened to me so far (2.6 years in).
- Perception is constantly macro instead of micro (wide field vs narrow field)... this caused a couple of accidents.
- Boys smell yummy... really... really... yummy.
- Girls now no longer have an automatic 'sweet' smell.
- Not immediately able to determine if I like the way a girl looks. I *can* be attracted but I have to give a crap.
- I'm more emotionally sensitive to many things but in a different way. Not an anger response but instead a sadness response.
- I do *not* get angry as easily and when I do, I feel like I'm having a conniption fit instead of wanting to rip someone in half.
- Visual lock for boobs and butts is gone. Don't have to worry about eyes snapping to inappropriate places.
- Porn is useless. Text is awesome.
- Physical sensation of sexual arousal is different.
- CHOCOLATE!!! OMG!
- Tactile sensation is more important. I feel more needs to touch things to connect with them.
- Certain flavors are much more appealing now (didn't like onions, now love them)
I'm sure there's more. That's just the stuff that I can remember from the top of my head. This will definitely be a YMMV kind of issue though. As mentioned, placebo effect is a factor as well as sensitivity to estrogens as opposed to androgens.
If you've got your letter, and you've got a real doc (DO NOT DO IT THE OTHER WAY!), enjoy the ride. It's crazy!
I don't think my sense of smell has changed other than if a guy has been sweating much, it pretty much just stinks to me. I told one guy the other night that he smelled like a skunk, not sure if he took that well or not, lol. I do know that my usual filters for stuff I say aren't all functioning as they used to, but that could be that I'm more comfortable around most people these days so I do and say more things without over thinking them so much.
I never liked porn, so no change there. I never much cared for sex, no change there. I do get almost no headaches when those were an almost daily occurrence before hrt. I'm still good with spatial stuff and fixing things. I care more about my appearance, but that has a lot to do with feeling a need to present myself well so I'm not seen as the freak thing that I am. I like little dogs more when before I couldn't stand them, but I think that has more to do with finally having my own little terror than anything else.
So I think most of the changes for me has been primarily physical.
Quote from: Noey Noonesson on July 19, 2012, 06:45:00 AM
People can think they know better than me, they can think I am crazy, they can think that I am just the pathetic ->-bleeped-<- who wants to be called "she" but what they don't realize is I am done giving a rats ass.
Noey just got added to my list of meaningful quotes! The Buddha, R.W.E, Twain and Noey!
I totally agree. No one can tell me what I hear, see, feel, touch or taste. Those senses are in ~me~, speak to ~me~. I find it so sad that we don't have that same confidence about the feelings we have inside us. They're all felt by same thing - our minds ... our external senses are merely electrical impulses, nothing different that our internal senses, so why put so much emphasis on the external? Why must we disbelieve what we ~feel~ but accept what we are exposed to?
Other people can get hung up on being told what their Truth is, personally, I'll go find my own.
Quote from: kim58 on July 18, 2012, 01:14:26 PM
Hi everyone, I am curious about just how profound the changes one can anticipate on the rewiring of our brains under the influence of estrogen. Are the mental and physiological changes really that profound? Also what can I expect in the areas of seeing things or processing various things in regards to a more feminine manor? Just how much will I really change?
I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's? I was born transsexual and my brain is and always has been clearly wired female which is why I couldn't adapt to being male throughout my life. The addition of estrogen didn't change my already female brain.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's?
Mucho belly button gazing? ::)
Hmm. Contemplating your belly buttons?
Okay, back on subject. There are some rewiring, Um, no let's say reswitching of certain parts of your brain due to the estrogen receptors being turned on. If my brain was rewired, it would've possibly cured my dyslexia. Nope, still there. It has a lot about how you felt when you start HRT. The attitude you have also will determine how much more feminine in spirit you'll become. I was a passive male before, now I'm a more confrontational tomboy. I still do the same things I did before, but with more determination.
Joelene
My "rewiring" happened several months prior to HRT. I suspect it was a combination of previous pyschic/emotional trauma and an extreme stress* reaction.
*"Stress" is a HUGE understatement. What I was experiencing at the time was beyond stress, but there's no word for it. 24/7 suicide ideations, urges, and attempts. Severe bodily pain, related to the 'stress', overwhelming feelings along the entire 4-axis spectrum...in short, I was in HELL.
One night I felt odd...and my wife asked, "In what way?" I told her, "I feel like my brain is being re-wired...
re-wired to be female." She said, "I know."
Ever since then, I made deliberate efforts to transition, with *no* regrets, *no* thoughts of de-transitioning.
And life is good. My own personal HELL has either withdrawn, or I advanced out of it. (There's an old saying..."If you find yourself in hell...KEEP MOVING!")
HRT simply reinforced where I already was. To paraphrase an old TV show...
QuoteWikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outer_Limits_%281963_TV_series%29#Influence_on_Star_Trek)"There is nothing wrong with your television set. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image, make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to — The Outer Limits.
— Opening narration, The Control Voice, 1960s"
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
I really don't understand some the recent posts in Susan's? I was born transsexual and my brain is and always has been clearly wired female which is why I couldn't adapt to being male throughout my life. The addition of estrogen didn't change my already female brain.
The common--and somewhat biased, imho--view is that a TS is born that way. I believe that everyone has male and female parts in the brain, just like (nearly) everyone has male and female parts on the body.
The penis is really just an extra-large clit, the scrotum is really just the vulva, the testes are really the ovaries, etc.
All parts are present in the early development of the fetus, and it's only the introduction of large amounts of hormones that cause these parts to either ascend or descend (ovaries -v- testes), enlarge or remain (penis -v- clit), or development of mammary glands (which both M and F's have; but only estrogen causes these glands to actually produce milk).
It is reasonable to think that the mind/brain symbiosis have both "male" and "female" elements, it's just a combination of nature (hormones) and nurture (social development) which "create" a certain type of brain. Obviously the basic structure would be there based on hormones, but the "wiring" of the brain is well-known to be influenced
strongly by social indoctrination (i.e., learning).
So, a TS could sense "being a woman" from his/her earliest memories, but it is also possible--indeed, far more likely--that any cross-gender tendencies would be stifled as part of any reasonably strict society. These induced suppressions could be released at some point in the future (due to any number of reasons, traumas being only one) and the person would perceive themselves as "becoming" transexual
at that point in time. But, if the prevailing custom is "Thou must be trans from birth, or thou art not trans", then a later-in-life TS would have to fabricate an "I remember being trans when I was 7 years old" story.
Better to have the truth of each transition; from these we can gain actual knowledge, not dogma.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 19, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Explain?
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean anything mean by that. I just think that sometimes we all think too hard about all of this. Relative to your statement that you don't understand some of the questions that have been coming up here in the forums... sometimes it feels to me as though we (gender variant folks) get ourselves caught up and wound up about things that we can't do anything about. Sometimes it's nice to allow the experience of transitioning to wash over us so that we can simply savor it rather than working so hard to explain and quantify it.
Sorry to interrupt.
Peace.
Everybody is a little different. I have always loved marzipan and candied citrus peel. I know guys who LOVE chocolate. Personally my chocolate experience is that I go through periods where I like it and periods where it could easily not even exist. Lately I have been into chocolate, my theory was I am into it right now because I am unemployed and not getting enough exercise.
People tend to crave chocolate when they are low in magnesium. When I was working my diet was much more fun and included a lot more fish and seaweed. Since being unemployed my diet has consisted of peanut butter and frozen burritos and I am probably craving chocolate because of a diet lower in magnesium since I am not getting ready to have a period any time soon. But I suspect it has more to do with having less social interaction and less of a sense of purpose. I personally believe that people use chocolate to replace social interaction, friendship, love, etc.
My sense of smell grew more acute after transition.
I started dreaming in colors.
I was always different (a product of being born with GID) but I care about children more than before.
My nipples became less sensitive after transition.
For a while I loved the smell of certain men, I have recently noticed that some older people have a bitter smell that I can't get away from quick enough.
But what I have noticed most about myself is that just when I think I have myself pegged I surprise myself which may relate to that old saying that it is a woman's prerogative to change her mind.
For me transition was also (for lack of a better word) a "spiritual" experience. Because I had lived with blinders on and had lived in a rut between my front door and work for so long. I had repressed myself with my religious beliefs as a way to keep me solidly in that rut. Also my belief that I had to be a certain way for everyone else. I had to live up to everyone's expectations of me, I had to live to avoid their criticisms.
So when I did finally break out of that rut and begin exploring transition I began driving to a big city far away for support meetings and simply driving out of town was a huge change and a major experience for me. I wasn't used to the big city. I met people, fell in love with someone (a totally new experience) and it was like the world was getting bigger and brighter. Just the experience of changing my life was having profound changes on myself, my life, my goals, wants, desires. My perception of "the world". The world was definitely growing. when I boarded an airplane and flew to Thailand the world got even larger and places I might have casually heard mentioned in the past became real. Japan, Thailand... Having those experiences changed me, changed my perception of the world.
Transition has changed me on a lot of levels, in a lot of ways. It wasn't just HRT, it was changing my routine and doing things I might never have done otherwise. something as simple as standing up for myself.
I do think that in a way I have a disadvantage when it comes to men. There was a time when I believed I knew all the facts and I had that level of confidence that many men have, a sense of confidence that is strengthened (often times) with ignorance. I think that many of us tend to think of ourselves as lesbians because dealing with men is that much harder when you have a past like we tend to do. I suppose it depends what you do with it, you could use it to your advantage. Mostly I find that when I immerse myself into a situation (instead of sitting behind a computer screen, typing words into a support website) that life becomes a lot more spontaneous and I begin to surprise myself and that is what is lacking in my life right now.
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 19, 2012, 08:19:21 PM
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean anything mean by that. I just think that sometimes we all think too hard about all of this. Relative to your statement that you don't understand some of the questions that have been coming up here in the forums... sometimes it feels to me as though we (gender variant folks) get ourselves caught up and wound up about things that we can't do anything about. Sometimes it's nice to allow the experience of transitioning to wash over us so that we can simply savor it rather than working so hard to explain and quantify it.
Sorry to interrupt.
Peace.
My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.
I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 04:37:06 AM
My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.
I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the biochemical "rewiring" that takes place in the brain when on HRT is in any way what "makes someone's brain female". They're just saying that it has a measurable effect on the brain, and discussing what (if any) difference people have experienced as a result of that.
I get that this topic is alien to you because you yourself have not experienced any noticeable difference since being on HRT, but please be open to the possibility that other people have experienced things differently.
Things will change profoundly, but you won't notice the change because it will be gradual. Should you ever have to revert to a pre HRT state you will very quickly realise how much you've changed.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 04:37:06 AM
My point was that I have always had a female brain which made it very hard for me to try and adapt a male persona which I couldn't do successfully. I suffer with Gender Dysphoria and I have a female brain which has a female thought process. So why would I want to a re-wire my brain which is already wired correctly? and HRT has had no effect on the way I think or do things because I am already female and lived as a female for many years.
I struggled throughout my life to think like guys and I never had a thought process like them. In fact I can never understand them. So this topic is totally alien to me.
Yeah I don't get it. Not all of us had the convenience of excelling in life as a male and then one day deciding it was time to transition. I think it's offensive to say "re-wiring of our brain as female," implying "we" were just totally normal men before with some weird freakish urge to become a woman.
My brain was wired as a female from the beginning...
Quote from: Padma on July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 AMsaying that it has a measurable effect on the brain,
Does it? That's news to me. Who has measured it? :D
Quote from: Padma on July 20, 2012, 04:52:58 AM
I get that this topic is alien to you because you yourself have not experienced any noticeable difference since being on HRT, but please be open to the possibility that other people have experienced things differently.
Other people probably notice differences because some are probably standard males who have lived standard male lives? rather than being female with a female brain. I have a female brain which I was born with. I can't re-wire my brain to what I already am. After years on HRT it hasn't affected the way I think or do things. I am exactely the same mentally.
This topic makes no sense to someone like me who is transsexual and suffered from gender dysphoria all their life. I have a female brain in the first place which is why I am transsexual.
Saying that others were standard males with standard male lives is profoundly hurtful. Transition isn't a contest. Almost all people are affected by hormones. Being on estrogen is typically a totally different experience than being on testosterone. F2Ms can attest to this fact because testosterone is such a powerful hormone. If you feel, think and experience life exactly the same then something is wrong and you need to see a competent endocrinologist. This is what people are talking about when they say "rewiring". They aren't saying they were totally men and then became total women, they are saying what I already know, that being on estrogen changes how you think, feel and experience life. It would be the same for a woman born female who was put on estrogen blockers and testosterone and then ten years later taken off the testosterone & blockers and given estrogen. She would think, feel and experience life differently. Some of us call that "rewiring" and it doesn't make us men who became women. Also it would take time for her to recover from being put on testosterone and estrogen blockers. She would notice some things right away and she would notice other things gradually. I felt an immediate sense of relief when I started HRT but there were other things that I noticed much more gradually. And I have always been female, it's why I transitioned.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 20, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Other people probably notice differences because some are probably standard males who have lived standard male lives? rather than being female with a female brain. I have a female brain which I was born with. I can't re-wire my brain to what I already am. After years on HRT it hasn't affected the way I think or do things. I am exactely the same mentally.
This topic makes no sense to someone like me who is transsexual and suffered from gender dysphoria all their life. I have a female brain in the first place which is why I am transsexual.
I have suffered for GID close 25 years and this topic makes a lot of sense. Just because it doesn't ring a bell with you doesn't mean everyone else here is some sort of sad "male" who needed a "change."
What is with the semantics aimed at people?
How hard is it to say, "This was not my experience." without being snotty to folks it does resonate with?
That is supportive like a kick in the teeth and it's pretty disheartening to see the same people being competitively bitter and angry about 90% of the topics started here.
I'm 2 weeks out from starting hrt and actively look for reasonable conversation and folks sharing their experiences on topics like this. They matter on a support site. If you can't be supportive and insist on drawing judgmental and condemning distinctions between your experience and everyone else's, please don't share, piss off and keep your angst to yourself.
-Miki
Quote from: Miki on July 20, 2012, 02:15:32 PM
If you can't be supportive and insist on drawing judgmental and condemning distinctions between your experience and everyone else's, please don't share, piss off and keep your angst to yourself.
-Miki
+1
Quote from: pretty on July 20, 2012, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: Padma
saying that it has a measurable effect on the brain,"
Does it? That's news to me. Who has measured it? :D
This recent study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803), for example, seems to show both things to be true at the same time:
i) that the brains of trans women on HRT are more like those of cis women than are those of trans women pre-HRT (using previous studies of trans women on HRT for comparison), and
ii) that the brains of trans women even pre-HRT are already in certain areas much more like those of cis women than those of cis men.
So according to this article, trans women already have more cis-women-like brains to start with, but HRT makes them even more so.
Can we call this a draw now, and just get on with sharing our own personal experiences? Denying the validity of someone else's experience is pointless - and is breaking the site ToS.
Please respect TOS rule #11 and keep the profanity off the site as well. Thank you, Devlyn
Changes, as I remember them, were obviously more noticable in the beginning. How much was placebo and how much was hrt I can't say for sure, but the changes in how I felt and how I behaved were anywhere from subtile to massive. I was talking to an old friend recently and the subject of hrt came up. I mentioned how, even though I didn't really notice it myself at the time, I was basically insane the first year before things settled down. My friend agreed.
Today I don't really notice the changes anymore. I'm too used to them by now. Casually thinking about it I would say I haven't really changed at all, but when I try to remember the person I once was it becomes more apparent. It is almost as if the old me is the narrative of a fictional character in a book I once read, or someone I knew that died a long time ago. The old me was a contrived and oppressed person. I am not.
The biggest change is perhaps in how I view myself as a woman. During my transition people would ask questions and I would eagerly explain. I had a whole shopping list of reasons, facts and arguments for stating my case. I would go to great lengths making sure there was no doubt I was woman. Though just like semantic satiation (repeating a word over and over till it loses it's meaning) it seems that over time all those ideas and arguments about what made me a woman have lost their meanings as well.
I have two sisters that are roughly 15 years younger than me that I watched grow up. One was the typical girl with dolls, pink unicorns, makeup etc. and is today a nurse. The other one was all dirt bikes, cap guns, running around in the forest and is at the moment striving to become a maintenance worker for exhaust duct systems on the oil rigs in the North sea. So one is the stereotypical girl, the other is not, I fall somewhere in between. If I were to ask them what makes them women without arguing from biology, how would they answer? I don't know, but there is little doubt they are both women, and both equally so.
Today it is far less important to me to shoehorn myself into a some female standard that needs to be met (a standard much narrower than one we would ever think to apply to cis-women). Ask me what makes me woman and I can't answer any more than I can answer what makes my sisters women. We are what we are because that's what we are.
Hopefully I'm not the last one posting here... :laugh:
I'm about to start HRT in about 2 weeks after being on AA's for 7 months, and I too am wondering what to expect as my brain is "re-wired" or "re-directed". Thanks for the link to the study Padma, its also one of those journal articles that the full article is...FREE!
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on July 19, 2012, 10:37:11 AM
Wow... some good posts in here. Regarding 'mental changes', you're probably talking about perception or emotional change. I'll simply give my run down of what's happened to me so far (2.6 years in).
- Perception is constantly macro instead of micro (wide field vs narrow field)... this caused a couple of accidents.
- Boys smell yummy... really... really... yummy.
- Girls now no longer have an automatic 'sweet' smell.
- Not immediately able to determine if I like the way a girl looks. I *can* be attracted but I have to give a crap.
- I'm more emotionally sensitive to many things but in a different way. Not an anger response but instead a sadness response.
- I do *not* get angry as easily and when I do, I feel like I'm having a conniption fit instead of wanting to rip someone in half.
- Visual lock for boobs and butts is gone. Don't have to worry about eyes snapping to inappropriate places.
- Porn is useless. Text is awesome.
- Physical sensation of sexual arousal is different.
- CHOCOLATE!!! OMG!
- Tactile sensation is more important. I feel more needs to touch things to connect with them.
- Certain flavors are much more appealing now (didn't like onions, now love them)
I'm sure there's more. That's just the stuff that I can remember from the top of my head. This will definitely be a YMMV kind of issue though. As mentioned, placebo effect is a factor as well as sensitivity to estrogens as opposed to androgens.
If you've got your letter, and you've got a real doc (DO NOT DO IT THE OTHER WAY!), enjoy the ride. It's crazy!
Like the way you itemized the changes Victoria.
The change in the sense of smell is one constant I keep reading about, especially the ability to smell Males. The Female brain contains more White matter than the Male brain, so it thinks faster! Anyone notice that kind of change?
Quote from: SandraJane on July 20, 2012, 04:00:08 PM
I'm about to start HRT in about 2 weeks after being on AA's for 7 months, and I too am wondering what to expect as my brain is "re-wired" or "re-directed".
Well, one thing I noticed not too long after starting hrt was that colors seemed more intense. Especially traffic lights in the dark. I can no longer tell if this is still the case or not.
Quote
The Female brain contains more White matter than the Male brain, so it thinks faster! Anyone notice that kind of change?
I've never heard of such a thing.
Quote from: MariaMx on July 20, 2012, 04:14:34 PM
Well, one thing I noticed not too long after starting hrt was that colors seemed more intense. Especially traffic lights in the dark. I can no longer tell if this is still the case or not.
I've never heard of such a thing.
The distribution of some gray matter is gender specific (see Padma Posting). Gray matter is where the bodies of neurons reside, white matter is the axonal bundles (cables connecting neurons and neuronal centers)
Thanks for posting, that was a good read ^_^ and struck me as very honest and matter of fact.
Quote from: MariaMx on July 20, 2012, 03:49:59 PM
If I were to ask them what makes them women without arguing from biology, how would they answer? I don't know, but there is little doubt they are both women, and both equally so.
People who were born the right sex don't really have any other experience to compare to. They tend to assume that being born male makes you male, etc. They tend to project their experience on others, assuming that others have had the same experience of being born into the right skin. That is why some have come up with conspiracy theories to explain M2Fs as predators who want to invade women's spaces, etc.
All I can say is that on raising my E (and especially lowering my T), I felt as though I got to finally sit down in a seat I'd been holding myself up from all my life. It's like the difference between being a fountain, and being a lake. I just got taken off anti-androgens for 2 months, and I had to go back on them, I was getting pushed out of that seat, and there's nothing worse.
It's impossible for me to tell for sure what changes that have happened in my personality and habits and state of mind are 'caused' by the HRT. I've spent the last few months trying to learn to handle acute PTSD, which has somehow been brought to the surface by transitioning - but I have no idea whether my lizard brain is being kicked off by hormonal effects, or simply by me being myself for the first time since I got abused way back. I'm now strong enough to be vulnerable, safe enough to be unsafe. I'm taking risks I couldn't ever take when all my energy was tied up in "passing" as a man.
So much has changed since I began this change, and I don't care what's causing what. I'm just trying to ride the white water. My body knows it's a woman's body, I'm helping it to catch up with itself. My mind/self is female, but has never needed to be masculine or feminine. It's simple. Since I began transitioning, and especially since HRT, my sexual orientation has flickered about like a mad dragonfly, and worrying about that gets in the way of it being the mad fun it is just to watch. Trying to be anyone else's idea of what a trans woman "should" want/do/wear/be - that's just silly.
(...can you tell I'm wired as hell and it's one in the morning...?)