Susan's Place Transgender Resources

For the non-binary gendered people at Susan's: How many of you have undergone or are considering physical therapies such as hormones or surgery.

I am definitely considering it. It depends on how my feelings about my gender progress.

SRS, FFS, and 18 months of hormones. Still non-binary, just with a body that works a bit better.

I've had top surgery, and have considered T in the past. Now, I'm pretty happy with my body and I don't think I want to change it any further, gender-wise.

I first started to question my gender when I realized that I felt wrong about my genitals.  After a few years I realized that I am non-binary.  So first I felt the physical urges.  I would love to have some sort of HRT.  Something to feminize me a little bit and reduce the raging testosterone in my body.

I'm working on the project of learning my relationship with my body, rather than changing my body. Like all relationships, there is rough and smooth that have to be worked through, but I find it a far more do-able project than changing my body, and I have so many other projects I am more invested in.

I'm finding myself *very* drawn to T. Not sure if it a moth towards flame, or something more positive.

--Jay jay

I don't really know which answer to choose in the poll, because I have decided that I want hormones and some surgeries (to get my breasts and uterus removed). So I am not considering those but instead I know that for sure. And now it is only waiting on the long, long waiting list of the gender clinic in my country. So it will take at least 3 or 4 years before my body is 'finished'.

Even though I feel andrygyn, I want to have a male looking body and voice, because my current body feels 'wrong'. And within the binary society I'd rather be a 'he' than a 'she'. So that's why I want the hormones and surgeries.

I've thought about it in the past, and realized there are no practical physical changes relating to gender I could make that would make me happier.  That doesn't mean I love my body as it is.  But short of a total miraculous transformation beyond the hope of current technology, none of the things I would change about it are gender-related.

In many ways I don't feel like it's *my* body, just *a* body.  I tend to not ntocie it unless it's getting in the way of what I want to do.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 25, 2012, 08:21:08 PM
I'm finding myself *very* drawn to T. Not sure if it a moth towards flame, or something more positive.

Moth towards the moon? :)

I'm changing my body because I'm meant to be female, but I'm not changing my self, which is neither masculine nor feminine. I'm fortunate to have an understanding GIC doc.

Raises hand.

I've documented my HRT experience here before so i won't repeat it; suffice it to say that i have a much calmer mental existence now. The body changes weren't really sought after but they came as part of taking HRT and my girl mode is happy with them.

I said:
>>I'm finding myself *very* drawn to T. Not sure if it a moth towards flame, or something more positive.

Quote from: Padma on July 26, 2012, 10:35:35 AM
Moth towards the moon? :)

I'm changing my body because I'm meant to be female, but I'm not changing my self, which is neither masculine nor feminine. I'm fortunate to have an understanding GIC doc.

Quite funny Padma!
I guess that I am not sure if I know I am androgyne or if I am ftm (or both as it is possible to be). Funny that I would not know this, but I feel very unsure of my own memories and so on right now. I've thought it would help if I recalled more.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 26, 2012, 05:10:42 PM
I guess that I am not sure if I know I am androgyne or if I am ftm (or both as it is possible to be)...

We experience ourselves in so many different ways, there's no reason (except that it's not "conventional") why the way we experience ourselves physically and how we experience our gender expression/identity must follow traditional rules as to how these things "should" match up. I don't see any reason why being androgyne in gender and male or female (or androgynous) in physical body is a conflict. If that's how you are, that's enough.

I've been living much more openly during the past few months, most friends and coworkers now know me as Z and my gender presentation is non-binary, feminine oriented. I'm considering HRT, but taking my time to decide.

Z

Low dose HRT, started with Spiro well over a year ago.
I have been using a low dose estradiol patch for a couple months or so.

Spiro can really take the negative aspects of testosterone away.
I find it works very well with my anger issues that stem from gender issues.

The E?  Smooth is the only way I have to describe it at this point.
I really haven't had much time to even think about it until just a couple weeks ago.
Within a couple hours of starting the first patch, all hell broke loose in my life.
But now that most of the meetings and legal crap is done,... smooth is about all I can tell you.

I do have a feeling that I have made the right move, and I don't plan on increasing anything or taking anything else.
Surgery is a distant thought, no more relevant than a 'what if' daydream.
But a lot of my wilder 'what if' daydreams have been realized from a small to great extent in my life, so...

Although low dose HRT and/or surgeries isn't for everyone, it is quite common among non-binary people.
At least it is through the University program that I use, and it is a leader in this field.
The poll has interesting results so far. It indicates a diversity among us. I look forward to more entries.

*rant warning*
We share a common ground, us non-binary people.
But... I think it would be very difficult, to group us using such things as HRT and surgery.
I don't think they have the significance to apply them to us that way.
The inclusions and exclusions would just be unfair, in to many ways.
There are just to many variables for that to be feasible.

Some people might view that as a down fall of sorts, I see it as a positive, a good thing.
Think of all the possibilities we have. We have much to offer, from many points of view.
We are full of new possibilities with regards to HRT and surgeries.
We redefine what it means, by presenting these possibilities.
We open many doors that have been locked to some.
That is difficult to do if you are grouped into some kind of sameness, we become lost in it.
There becomes a need for a well worn path to follow when that happens.
We are free to follow our own individual paths, without constraints of a group or type mentality.

I don't mean that all groups are a negative thing, for binaries I think it is a good thing.
I think it has allowed them to find definition, a sensible way to guide them on their own paths, to their destinations.
I can appreciate it because it is something that we draw from, ideas and ways of looking at things.
We just do it differently, we have a journey as a definition, more than a destination.
Where we are destined as individuals, is secondary to how we will get there.

All of this, HRT or not, surgeries or not, it's a part of who we may be, or not.
I never did follow the rules, I have seen them changed and rewritten to often.
Rules are the guidelines that terms and boxes are made from.
If we think outside the 'regular' box, or we make that box bigger, it effectively becomes useless.
We define our own terms, we do not except the definitions of others.
Even among ourselves, we do this. We remain free to do that, to discuss it in many ways.
That's a good thing. That defines us more than anything else.

Ativan

Aye. Being non-binary is like being bisexual. It's a term that covers a huge range of people who only have in common that we aren't in one or another perceived "end-zone" (i.e. man-woman, gay-straight) of a perceived spectrum - but who are in fact notable for our diversity, not our similarities. So it's reasonable to enquire out of curiosity about whether people are considering hormones, surgery, so long as we remain aware that all this tells us is how different we all are :).

Aye, Padma. There are some here who are in the end zone (end zone  :) ).
They can be, bigender being my first thought. (if that's OK)
But there are also those who are questioning their idea of non-binary vs transition.
I fully support them here. Even those in transition, with a male or female destination in mind.
As long as they can accept that they can do that and still be non-binary, or even questioning it.
I don't pretend to understand just how that works, but it works for me.
You think you might fit here, OK.
You think that a part of you belongs here, OK.
You want to be here for whatever reason, OK.
To me, non-binary can be looked at as a spectrum without ends, as opposed to a binary one that does.
You could think of them as being parrallel, you could see how easy it is to move from one to the other.

Indeed, it is more than reasonable to inquire about HRT, surgery,... even how much or how little.
We need all the information we can get. Good information that comes from us.

so long as we remain aware that all this tells us is how different we all are  :)

Nailed it. Right there.
We have a tendency, even a need to find similarities, a want to...
Our similarity is that we aren't.

Ativan

I think it is comparing notes. Honestly I find it helpful. Well I mean I haven't made a decision, but it is still information about a common (though hardly and in some cases very different) path.


--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 12:29:31 AM
I think it is comparing notes. Honestly I find it helpful.
--Jay Jay

We can use more of this.
It is quite helpful. I read it as about an even split, or could be.
I think it would have had a different result two yrs ago, when I was talking about HRT with my Psychologist.
Things are changing, whether it is easier to talk about this or are there more people looking at HRT and/or surgery.

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on July 28, 2012, 11:11:13 AM
Things are changing, whether it is easier to talk about this or are there more people looking at HRT and/or surgery.

More of us seem to be considering it than before, or at least talking openly about it. I believe another important factor is that treatment standards have recently progressed to include non binary and genderqueer people, whereas previous standards were much stricter.

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on July 28, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
More of us seem to be considering it than before, or at least talking openly about it. I believe another important factor is that treatment standards have recently progressed to include non binary and genderqueer people, whereas previous standards were much stricter.

Z

I got the idea it was once a verboten topic, because it would have been assumed that non-binaries were doing this for "cosmetic" purposes. This supposedly was in differentiation for those transsexual people who were more serious and for real.

It is a REALLY good thing that we can talk about this one. It is a pretty big thing to not feel that we can't really talk about.

I think the treatment standards have changed for everybody. I saw "Trans the movie". I got the idea that one girl committed suicide because she felt she could never get to the in gold plated "standards of care" (not referring to the new ones-- you do need standards of care) for the time. They never said so much but the implication was there.
In our cases these old standards were impossible.


@Ativan-- yeah it's good to compare notes. It's really mostly what we can do.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: Zythyra on July 28, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
More of us seem to be considering it than before, or at least talking openly about it. I believe another important factor is that treatment standards have recently progressed to include non binary and genderqueer people, whereas previous standards were much stricter.

Z

Your words have a weight that I can't express.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 11:47:52 AM
I got the idea it was once a verboten topic, because it would have been assumed that non-binaries were doing this for "cosmetic" purposes. This supposedly was in differentiation for those transsexual people who were more serious and for real.

It is a REALLY good thing that we can talk about this one. It is a pretty big thing to not feel that we can't really talk about.

--Jay Jay

As do yours, Jay Jay.

I'm definitely more than considering Top surgery. I'm not considering hormones because I'm quite happy with the way my features are right now. I feel that with enough physical training on most aspects of my body, that it'll balance out my femininity. I think I maybe a little obsessive with the top surgery, but I have a lot of body dysmorphia issues with my breasts, to say the least.
It feels like they're two giant boulders blocking the path out of a crazy, twisting maze. If that makes any sense at all.

I'm really visual as a person and see my body as a physical manifestation of my mind and spirit, so surgery is really important to me. I'm really envious and self-conscious when I see other androgynes who are confident with themselves and their bodies just as they are.   

Also, one good thing about T is the fat-distribution that helps with narrowing your hip size. That's one thing that's worrying me.

I identify as some kind of non-binary FTM. I am going to take testosterone within this year and get top surgery. Reading this thread makes me feel better about the choices I am making for myself. I recently came out to family (for the second time, the first time I wasn't really ready when they asked me about my gender issues), and I find myself having to justify how I feel by leaning towards a more binary explanation of being trans. When I come out at work, I feel like I am required to adhere to the GOLD STAR TRANSSEXUAL!! standard in my explanation of my experience, because otherwise they wouldn't take it seriously. Hearing that some of you are presenting non-binary in those spaces is good to hear.

When I feel pressured to explain why I identify as male despite not knowing since age 3 or being a macho manly man, I keep thinking it doesn't matter how those feelings came about or whether or not it's a choice. Because it's not wrong either way. It just is.

Absolutely want Facial feminization surgery no doubt in my mind about that, but im undecided if  taking male to female hormonal therapy is right for me but i feel i have to make up my mind soon becuase at 25 the clock is ticking

@rainyjun (interesting name, btw). Sounds a bit like me. (Though I am guessing I am quite a lot older... shhh.) I really like your Gold Star Transsexual. Even GSTs :) don't always really follow all the "rules" that they are supposed to according to some non-existent rule book on it.  Not all transsexuals know at age 3, honestly.

I am thinking re: low dose T right now (my understanding is that it gets you the same place but takes longer, depending on the dose. The taking longer sounds good to me. Right now it is just on the thinking about it stage and not more.

There's no one right way, since we are all different.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: rainyjun on July 29, 2012, 01:44:08 AM
I identify as some kind of non-binary FTM. I am going to take testosterone within this year and get top surgery. Reading this thread makes me feel better about the choices I am making for myself. I recently came out to family (for the second time, the first time I wasn't really ready when they asked me about my gender issues), and I find myself having to justify how I feel by leaning towards a more binary explanation of being trans. When I come out at work, I feel like I am required to adhere to the GOLD STAR TRANSSEXUAL!! standard in my explanation of my experience, because otherwise they wouldn't take it seriously. Hearing that some of you are presenting non-binary in those spaces is good to hear.

When I feel pressured to explain why I identify as male despite not knowing since age 3 or being a macho manly man, I keep thinking it doesn't matter how those feelings came about or whether or not it's a choice. Because it's not wrong either way. It just is.

That's kind of like how I feel right now. I'm kind of like a genderqueer/bigender FtM who didn't know since the age of three and who is an effeminate masculine man.

I am in the process of coming to terms with my nonbinary identity, and at the same time grappling with whether or not surgery and/or hormones is a good choice for me.
For the longest time, identifying as ftm, physical transition was sort of a given. Just something I would have to do to be comfortable. Now it feels more like a choice to me. A choice for whatever will make me feel right in my body.
The question is, what will make me feel right in my body? I feel like a very soft boy, gentle and not particularly masculine. I love my hair and my smooth skin. I'm not thrilled about the risks of having a ridiculously hairy chest, but I could wax. My biggest concern is that I don't want to lose my hair, and male pattern baldness is a thing in my family. For some people this wouldn't make a difference, but I care enough about my hair that it is. This doesn't mean that the decision is being taken lightly or that I might not really benefit from hormones, all it means is that what is important to my gender expression is different than what is important to ftms.
As for top surgery, I'm still working on sorting through my feelings about my chest. I'm leaning towards it right now though, once I have money.

Quote@rainyjun (interesting name, btw). Sounds a bit like me. (Though I am guessing I am quite a lot older... shhh.) I really like your Gold Star Transsexual. Even GSTs  don't always really follow all the "rules" that they are supposed to according to some non-existent rule book on it.  Not all transsexuals know at age 3, honestly.

QuoteThe question is, what will make me feel right in my body? I feel like a very soft boy, gentle and not particularly masculine. I love my hair and my smooth skin. I'm not thrilled about the risks of having a ridiculously hairy chest, but I could wax. My biggest concern is that I don't want to lose my hair, and male pattern baldness is a thing in my family. For some people this wouldn't make a difference, but I care enough about my hair that it is. This doesn't mean that the decision is being taken lightly or that I might not really benefit from hormones, all it means is that what is important to my gender expression is different than what is important to ftms.

I think these points are hard for a lot of cisgender (or even binary-identified trans) people to understand. They say we're wishy washy or not seriously suffering enough to "qualify" for physical transition because we don't adhere to a "typical" narrative.

I sometimes feel guilty for not wanting to look hypermasculine. Like I'm a cafeteria FTM, picking and choosing traits that I want like it's a game.

Quote from: rainyjun on July 30, 2012, 08:21:25 PM
I sometimes feel guilty for not wanting to look hypermasculine. Like I'm a cafeteria FTM, picking and choosing traits that I want like it's a game.

Technically, we do that anyway don't we? Choose traits we want I mean. I plan on dying my hair blue sometime. A former classmate of mine was getting breast implants. My sister had a nose ring. My neighbour wants to cut her hair.
Also, plenty of cis guys don't look hypermasculine either. Why should a trans guy have to?

QuoteTechnically, we do that anyway don't we? Choose traits we want I mean. I plan on dying my hair blue sometime. A former classmate of mine was getting breast implants. My sister had a nose ring. My neighbour wants to cut her hair.
Also, plenty of cis guys don't look hypermasculine either. Why should a trans guy have to?

Trans people are held to stricter standards of gender expression than cis people are, unfortunately. :( So there is more of a pressure to conform to the binary. And if you don't, people won't take your gender identity or expression seriously.

People who think hormones and surgeries are merely cosmetic often give the "what is natural is good" argument. Most people would say that a new haircut or color is normal, body piercing is fairly mainstream, but when there is surgery or hormones involved, it's suddenly shallow and unnecessary. And the definition of "natural" changes over time and across cultures. Is my brain not natural? Are my feelings and thoughts not natural either?

I know. It sucks to have such double standards.
As for the people claiming that other's choices are "shallow and unnecessary," they're hypocrites.

Every body is different. I don't know that I'm a non-binary or not. I am asexual. I'm not all hung up about it. I had GRS several years ago and I'm very happy with who I am.

I'm a Transitioning M2WtF am on Hormones and often think about the pros & cons of SRS for me - I have body issues related to medical issues as well as gender related body issues and I think that some one of the medical based body issues would become worse  if i went through with SRS,  I'm hoping something can be done to fix these issues first.

I want T, I want top surgery, I want a meta. I kinda have to get a hysto for the meta (I know you can have a meta without a colpectomy, but I have no interest in keeping that hole).

I see myself as a female-assigned non-binary who should've been a male-assigned non-binary.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 31, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
Every body is different. I don't know that I'm a non-binary or not. I am asexual. I'm not all hung up about it. I had GRS several years ago and I'm very happy with who I am.

I'm asexual too, Cindi J. That's a sexual orientation (I don't see too many people calling it that, but sexual orientation is who you are attracted to-- and yes, it gets about zero amts of attention). Gender is whether you feel yourself to be male, female or not definable that way. I don't know if I am non-binary either, but I am pretty sure I am asexual.


--Jay Jay

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 31, 2012, 02:59:04 AM
Every body is different. I don't know that I'm a non-binary or not. I am asexual. I'm not all hung up about it. I had GRS several years ago and I'm very happy with who I am.

Asexuality is a sexual orientation and is unrelated to gender identity. It has nothing to do with being non-binary.

When I read about the psychological and physical effects of hormones, it seems like low dose HRT is something I should have started a long time ago.  And that freaks me out a little.  I only learned about non-binary genders this year, and I'm still getting used to knowing that that's what I am.  Also, I'm pretty conservative about putting new things in my body, so I'm going to see how far I can get without HRT first.  I am considering it, though.

I'm not sure what to think about the poll results so far.  Most people are at least considering physical therapies, which means I'm not alone, which is nice.  But I was sort of hoping that needing to be treated medically was a rare thing for us.  I mean, obviously I don't have to take HRT if I really don't want it, and maybe I'll be one of the ones who doesn't need it.  But if that's what it takes to deal with the dysphoria and finally give me a chance to be ok with the way I am, so be it.

Last time I got a blood test I almost fainted though, so I hope it doesn't involve too many of those  :(

As for surgery, the only one I could possibly need is FFS, and I don't think that'd be worth it.  I'm not considering it.

Especially with estrogen, low dose HRT is becoming more of an option for people. Unfortunately, testosterone works fairly fast in comparison from what I've heard. What I'd like to know from someone who is on a low dose of t is whether they end up looking androgynous or just take longer to change to masculine looking?

Quote from: BlueSloth on August 03, 2012, 11:27:01 PM
When I read about the psychological and physical effects of hormones, it seems like low dose HRT is something I should have started a long time ago.  And that freaks me out a little.  I only learned about non-binary genders this year, and I'm still getting used to knowing that that's what I am.  Also, I'm pretty conservative about putting new things in my body, so I'm going to see how far I can get without HRT first.  I am considering it, though.

I'm not sure what to think about the poll results so far.  Most people are at least considering physical therapies, which means I'm not alone, which is nice.  But I was sort of hoping that needing to be treated medically was a rare thing for us.  I mean, obviously I don't have to take HRT if I really don't want it, and maybe I'll be one of the ones who doesn't need it.  But if that's what it takes to deal with the dysphoria and finally give me a chance to be ok with the way I am, so be it.

Last time I got a blood test I almost fainted though, so I hope it doesn't involve too many of those  :(

As for surgery, the only one I could possibly need is FFS, and I don't think that'd be worth it.  I'm not considering it.

ditto i wish i wish i started low dose hormones at like 16 or earlier , 16 is in my head becuase thats when i was flipping out about facial hair growing

Quote from: troyboi on August 07, 2012, 10:40:24 PM
Especially with estrogen, low dose HRT is becoming more of an option for people. Unfortunately, testosterone works fairly fast in comparison from what I've heard.

I would be very interested in what is going on as far as low dose T is concerned. It is something I have heard very little about. What's going on? Anybody trying this?
Ativan

Quote from: troyboi on August 07, 2012, 10:40:24 PM
Especially with estrogen, low dose HRT is becoming more of an option for people. Unfortunately, testosterone works fairly fast in comparison from what I've heard. What I'd like to know from someone who is on a low dose of t is whether they end up looking androgynous or just take longer to change to masculine looking?

Yes T works faster (than E). But this is not entirely true. There are people doing low dose T who do not pass. Or who only pass after several years on T. Of course, I believe that low dose T still gets you to the same place (as higher doses), but you would have more time. There are changes that are permanent and ones that are temporary. You have to be willing to take the permanent effects. (Something I am considering btw.) I haven't come to a conclusion here.

The big problem is that some people might want a "Peter Pan" type look. Whatever you do you will get older/old.


These people have done low dose and identify as genderqueer. Both of them decided to transition fully. I couldn't find anybody that stopped and stayed stopped unfortunately.

Partial FTM Transition (2008) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4Nd9nQPDA&feature=plcp#)

14. 5 1/2 Months on Super Low Dose T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1513wiaPCE&feature=plcp#)


--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on August 08, 2012, 06:51:54 PM
I couldn't find anybody that stopped and stayed stopped unfortunately.

Maddox (http://neutrois.me/tag/testosterone/) has taken and stopped low-dose T. They don't have many videos on Youtube, which makes them a little harder to find.

First off I am not androgyne, I am female. However, I am married to an androgyne so I figure I can throw my 2 centavos in.

My spouse has been on HRT for the last 2 years and ze had breast reduction but not 'top surgery'. For most other FAB folks a breast reduction would not be a gender dysphoria related surgery, but for Sevan it was.

Quote from: cain on August 28, 2012, 12:00:47 PM
Maddox (http://neutrois.me/tag/testosterone/) has taken and stopped low-dose T. They don't have many videos on Youtube, which makes them a little harder to find.

Since it only has been a few months, don't know what he might do. Some people seem to stop and start up again.

--Jay Jay

hrt, some hair removal on chest, no surgeries

I think Maddox is back on T, although I could be wrong.

Yeah I read his blog just the other day (he might have gone further in his transition than most-- going for a name change and I think gender marker change, etc.). I believe he still identifies as non-binary. To see what we are talking about you might want to see this. He writes really well: http://neutrois.me/ (http://neutrois.me/)

--Jay Jay

I made an appointment at a LGBT clinic and told my therapist last night that I'm going for it.  ;D

Non-binary and wanting to go as far as possible. The problem is that the non-binary feeling gets somewhat weaker as denial barrers are demolished, so I don't know how things will shape / evolve after therapy.

Still can't feel any binary thing, but somewhat worried about the escale tilting. I don't mind the body, but I wanted to keep the mind completely neutral.

I am not sure if I fit your definition of androgyny or not as I still am not sure what I am. I quit trying to understand  because it produced depression and anxiety and seemed to be a never ending stressor with no clear resolution. I was always trying to force myself into definitions/labels where I did not necessarily meet all the criteria or attributes of the label. That created even more conflict.  I knew one thing clearly however. I simply could not continue down that path and survive without somehow addressing my GID. So I found  a gender therapist and started medication. Once the anxiety and depression lifted it became easier to address problems in therapy. 

It was a long and painful process and ending with an orchiectomy many years ago.  Easy to say but a very scary and long painful process.  It was an informed choice I made in lieu of full SRS and possibly losing my spouse. I could not imagine my life without her. Underlying health issues prohibited HRT.   I believed at the time that It would not work because I needed to fully transition for me to be mentally healthy. Funny thing happened along the way.

Without those male parts I began to feel better about myself and I actually looked "down there" for the first time in decades!   I know it sounds crazy but to look down there and not see or feel them was wonderfully uplifting.  I became calmer, my mood happier and I am bathed in emotions. My feelings, sense of self and emotions for the first time matched how I felt inside. In other words who I really was. WOW did that feel good. What a wonderful thing. In short, I felt great!   Its hard to explain. Sounds crazy I know.

Now my skin has softened, face feminized, hair is gone, breasts have grown and my remaining part has shrunk substantially. I feel more feminine and it feels right. Probably more info than you wanted. Sorry

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 13, 2012, 05:07:33 PMThe problem is that the non-binary feeling gets somewhat weaker as denial barrers are demolished

I know what you mean, but have come to accept that as not as a problem.

If you are dying of thirst, water is the most glorious thing you could possibly find.  If you're not, your feelings for water are much less intense... but you still wouldn't give it up forever :)

I wouldn't worry too much about being absolutely neutral.  Neutrality implies that male and female are polar opposites, and I just don't believe that anymore.  Don't be neutral, be you.

every night i wish to be rid of my breasts, since i can feel them so much better. but they look nice in the mirror, so whenever i think about not having them when wearing a dress, i just...
and then there is that deeper voice which i miss. but i still can't seem to make myself ask someone to help me out with anything, since i don't trust norwegian health care in the least. especially not when it comes to non-binary issues

at least i've figured out that a full transition would be pretty much useless for me. i just don't know what alternatives would be better or worse, and i have no idea where to go for professional help

Unless you're experiencing dysphoria that is messing up things, you seem to be able to make your own choices.
This is important. Some of us spent a lot of time getting to that point.
If you think you need help, a therapist who knows about being transgender, especially non-binary, is a big help.
Are you doing better than say, a year ago? It takes time, careful thinking, and finding resources that work.
Just remember not to become what you read, and to always be yourself.
Your gender just a part of who you are. Be yourself and it should fall into place, become apparent.

Ativan

Quote from: Metroland on July 25, 2012, 01:30:04 PM
I would love to have some sort of HRT. 

What's crazy is because of my medical past I have NO hormones in my body, which might be the reason why I have issues with my sexuality and gender!

Hoping and planning for HRT, SRS, not sure if I would need FFS or not yet. I know who I am and what I have always wanted.

I thought I would know who I am by this point in my life, but I just feel lost...

Yea, I do think of getting some physical therapies. Just not sure how far I would want them to take me. Wouldn't want to take T for long, for example. It seems I long for having a more manly torso (and without breasts), but I wouldn't want any more body hair or especially having to deal with baldness at some point of my life!

So I'm still at crossroads about where to go from here. Currently I just work out and run to get myself a more laddish look. Luckily I have naturally broad shoulders (wider than my hips). I hope that getting in better shape will make me feel more comfortable. :)

Toned muscles always look good.
Even if they aren't what you want exactly, they seem to accentuate the look you want.
Lean and mean always goes with everything.

Ativan

I have just started HRT.

Z

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on November 26, 2012, 02:58:10 PM
@Z: cool. I hope it works the way you want.  :)

Thanks Ativan, I feel very good about my decision to start!
Z

Congrats Z!  :)

I don't believe in partial transition anymore...

I came out as bigender.

Got laser sessions going.

Started switching gender presentations(sometimes guy, sometimes girl) everywhere, yes even at work.

Realized I can pass systematically as whichever gender I assume.

Realized my female side will never be considered "real" or legitimate as long as I switch to guy mode.

Realized it was easy for customers to gender me( whichever gender I was assuming) but staff members failed at pronouns consistently.

Thought that going full time female for a few months would make others acknowledge that Jessica is just as real as John.

Thought that I could be prettier on HRT and still present as a guy whenever I want to since I'm MAAB.

Got on a full dose of HRT.

5 months later I looked like a cis female and had B cups.

Realized I can't pass as a guy anymore.

Realized I don't exactly care since I feel much more female than male anyways.

Realized that I'm much happier. Overcame most of my issues with drug/alcohol abuse and destructive habits not to mention the rage is gone.

Can't imagine myself stopping HRT.

Can't imagine myself going back to presenting male at work.

Can't figure out how I ever convinced myself that I could live as both.

I still bind and dress as a guy from time to time but more like a crossdresser/ drag king would I don't really go out as a man anymore and I'm flirting with the idea that I can actually be just as bad ass as a girl. For now it seems to be enough. I do have bouts of dysphoria when I'm heavily objectified/sexualized and wish all eyes wouldn't be on me wherever I go and I could be anonymous like I was as a guy but I overcome these thoughts easily. The dysphoria I experience now is nothing compared to when it was the other way around so I guess that even if it wasn't supposed to go down like that at all a full transition turned out to be what I needed.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 09, 2012, 02:02:42 PM
Toned muscles always look good.
Even if they aren't what you want exactly, they seem to accentuate the look you want.
Lean and mean always goes with everything.

Ativan

Exactly.
And after three months, I really look more the way I want. I'm toned and my shoulders are broader, I get comments every time I see my friends.
Yesterday I was feeling quite dysphoric with looking like a female. I saw my friend that evening and came out to her "for real" (telling I really don't feel like a girl at all and that I desperately want a change in my appearance, while before I've only told her I feel androgynous). She looked at me for a long time and said that she doesn't really see the girl sides of me, that I've really started to resemble an androgynous boy or something equivalent.
This made me really relieved, though I don't see the change as clearly as she. :) But at the same time I see that since September (when I first posted in this topic), I no more have problems with most of the changes that T could make. I have new concerns: how long will I be able to pass as a girl, whether I really need to think about coming out to my relatives for real, etc. But the added body hair wouldn't be a problem for me, anymore. I still would like to look pretty, though, but I hate the thought of not being able to grow a beard when I'm fifty or something. :(
So even though I clearly think I'm in the wrong body and my real body should be outside clear gender binary, I'm leaning more and more towards a masculine FtA identity. It'll be interesting to see whether this will change even more to the extreme, but I do doubt that.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on December 05, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
I think the number or ratio of people who are is going to climb, we are just at the beginning, kind of.
The future is going to be different when it comes to gender and how it is viewed by society.
There will be less dysphoria with acceptance.
It's going to be better.
Ativan

I have the same feeling. In my age group and country there are more and more people who want to defy gender roles and gender binary. I hope this will continue, since that would make me feel much more at home in this world.

Yes, being somewhere in the middle or outside of gender is rewarding, confusing and challenging. It's easy for me to understand many things about my gender, but it's a real challenge to really start acting like my gender and face the fact that I'm outside the ordinary. I've always felt drawn towards the outside, odd, chaotic and undefined, but everything changed when I understood I can't act like one of the binary in front of others anymore... It's one thing to know what I am, another to realize I will never be happy if I don't have the courage to live as who I am.

But at least this seems like such a right path for me, even if it can be hard. It's like I've met an old friend, "me", again after many, many years, and slowly getting to know them again. :)

I experience major gender dysphoria with regards to my chest and I will be pursuing top surgery as soon as I can. I don't currently have a doctor or a therapist who can help me with this, but hopefully I'll have one in the future. I don't know how I feel about HRT yet. At most I think I would consider a low dose of T to see how it effects me. I really don't want to pass as a man, I don't have any social dysphoria and passing as a man would probably cause some of that, but I would appreciate some things T may be able to do for me.

I do want top surgery (or at least a reduction) and maybe HRT, but I don't know if I could talk to a therapist. I do know one that works with people in the trans* spectrum because of my family. But I don't know how they'd react. I'm sure they'd be supportive, but they might think that I'm trying to get attention or am making something out of nothing.

Quote from: hazelspikes on January 13, 2013, 06:56:42 PM
I do want top surgery (or at least a reduction) and maybe HRT, but I don't know if I could talk to a therapist. I do know one that works with people in the trans* spectrum because of my family. But I don't know how they'd react. I'm sure they'd be supportive, but they might think that I'm trying to get attention or am making something out of nothing.

Sometimes, when it comes to therapists, we non-binaries are a minority within a minority.  I do not have a bona fide gender therapist within an hours drive (on a good traffic day in L.A).  Finding a therapist who has an understanding of non-binary issues is even harder.

I don't think that non-binary issues have a large enough platform for that to be a course for a therapist.
There is however plenty of good information that they have access to. But also some really bad, outdated info.
Just as you need a surgeon to do surgery, so you should have someone qualified to at least make an assessment of you for any surgeries and for HRT.
I don't know, I've never looked into top surgery requirements, but I assume that you will need, at the least, an assessment for that also.

*sarcasm* 'Hey Doc, can ya cut these off for me when you get a chance?', 'Hey Doc, wanna give me some hormone stuff, but not to much?'...

Therapy is one of the crucial elements of learning about yourself, plus getting some answers to your questions.
Any good gender therapist will do, unless they don't think they can handle it. I don't think you'd find many like that.
Non-binary Trans* isn't that little thing off to the side that they don't want to bother with.
Many will look forward to the opportunity to learn more about it, from you, and what information that is available.
Crucial is finding one that you feel good with.
Shop around, they will all tell you they are really good, regardless, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are for you.

You'll hear it from plenty of people that self medicating is extremely dangerous.
You need blood work done, just to find out where you are, hormone and other things.
You will need to do this every so often after you start. Pretty doubtful that a Dr will prescribe with out it.
If they do,...I wouldn't think their level of competence is very high. Just my opinion.
There are many different kinds and doses for HRT, even low dose.
You need to find what is right for you, and the right dose.
What is right for someone else may not be right for you.

Make informed decisions.
It is simply something that DIY isn't safe, regardless of how much information you find.
Unless of course, you are a Dr who specializes in this stuff.  ;)
There is a difference between full dose HRT and low dose, more than just the doseage.
If you can't find a therapist in your area, you might find one who uses Skyp.
A therapist can open doors for you to get to where you want to go, Dr's for HRT and any surgery you may want.
Ativan

Changes in the soon-to-be published DSM-V are considerably more open to non-binary identities. If your therapist is aware of these, they should be able to help you get the treatments you're seeking.

Z

Thank you everyone for the advice! I will have to do some therapist (i guess that's what you call it) research! :)

I am on full transition levels of hrt (M2F) & intend on eventually having GRS/SRS.  however My beard is staying

Quote from: Kinkly on January 17, 2013, 06:35:04 AM
I am on full transition levels of hrt (M2F) & intend on eventually having GRS/SRS.  however My beard is staying

I need to jump in here and tell you how much I admire that. I've started laser treatment to get rid of mine because I'm so eager to pass. There's a lot of pressure on us to give up the physical perks of masculinity. I'm glad you're standing up to the pressure and keeping the one you want.

Just dropped in for a moment. Jeeze there's a lot of stuff going on around here!

Therapists can help you with being afraid of other peoples reactions. That's a good share of dysphoria.
Find a therapist you like, that you can be yourself and comfortable with. It's key to having one.

Going it alone is hard and can be risky. There's more to it than just forums and stuff.
It's an intimate thing you're going through. It's you being with the real you.
Always nice to have someone who is good at helping you guide your way through.
Ativan

I've just changed my vote, it was originally "I have not taken hormones or had gender surgery, but I'm considering it". "I am taking hormones" is now appropriate.

Z

Quote from: Kinkly on January 17, 2013, 06:35:04 AM
I am on full transition levels of hrt (M2F) & intend on eventually having GRS/SRS.  however My beard is staying

Quote from: agfrommd on January 17, 2013, 08:27:35 AM
I need to jump in here and tell you how much I admire that. I've started laser treatment to get rid of mine because I'm so eager to pass. There's a lot of pressure on us to give up the physical perks of masculinity. I'm glad you're standing up to the pressure and keeping the one you want.

Quote from: DrillQuip on January 18, 2013, 08:08:23 PM


I admire this too. I think mixed gender presentations are beautiful.

Thankyou both, living as I do with a strongly mixed gender presentation isn't easy but it is what I have to do

Quote from: Kinkly on January 21, 2013, 03:38:10 AM
'living as I do with a strongly mixed gender presentation isn't easy but it is what I have to do'

You have always been an inspiration for me.
Ativan

Quote from: Kinkly on January 17, 2013, 06:35:04 AM
I am on full transition levels of hrt (M2F) & intend on eventually having GRS/SRS.  however My beard is staying

Quote from: agfrommd on January 17, 2013, 08:27:35 AM
I need to jump in here and tell you how much I admire that. I've started laser treatment to get rid of mine because I'm so eager to pass. There's a lot of pressure on us to give up the physical perks of masculinity. I'm glad you're standing up to the pressure and keeping the one you want.

Quote from: DrillQuip on January 18, 2013, 08:08:23 PM


I admire this too. I think mixed gender presentations are beautiful.

Thankyou both, living as I do with a strongly mixed gender presentation isn't easy but it is what I have to do

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on January 21, 2013, 04:16:29 PM
You have always been an inspiration for me.
Ativan

thankyou this means more then you could know

It's been FOREVER since I've posted here...but Cyndi encouraged me to post an update and this thread seems the appropriate place.

I've now been on testosterone gel daily for three years now. (Just celebrated my anniversary actually. So really, three years!!) and I still totally pass female. Seems my body needed just an androgyn level of T same as my mind....*shrugs* I do have a much lower voice (male...I'd say) but still talk with such a feminine inflection that I'm rarely gendered male. I can grow a beard, patchy though it is...I do have more body hair than I used to, but still very very little.

I had top surgery in the form of a reduction. I'm more of a C cup...maybe B cup...not sure. I don't wear a traditional bra anymore. A stretchy kind that doesn't require me to know what cup I wear. I'm down from a DDD and it feels so much better!!

I work at an LGBT youth center where we talk about gender quite a bit, I'm able to be out with the youth and encourage them to use my preferred pronouns (ze/per) which they do....sometimes.

I'm legally changing my name to Sevan Marlow next Monday, and I'm in a good place.

Many seem to still be waiting for me to suddenly realize I'm binary male but...hasn't happened in three years, quite doubt it's suddenly going to at this point. I'm genderqueer, and I'm (usually, generally) happy with that.

I'm so happy to see so many who are considering HRT and similar!! Three years ago when I started...I was the only one I knew besides Kinkly. I couldn't find anyone else who was even seriously considering it, let alone had already done it!

I've been considering it, but only really started researching it - and I've still got to find a doctor and psych to start down the path...

One of my biggest frustrations has been my very-much male presentation, specifically in the face (and being bald) and the frame.  My body hair has never been a big issue...  I've got small breasts - maybe an A: if I was female, my frame would probably have a D cup (working with home-made falsies when I dress up) so I'd like a little larger breasts (maybe B/C not something that could be easily masked in a default-male presentation) and hips/thighs/butt. From what I read some kind of low-dose E should provide a good bit of feminization for my face and body.

I feel like I can pass now fairly easily (visually) with a wig and make-up, mannerisms and voice (if I chose to present as female) will come with practice.  So a little nudge in the right direction is what I'm looking for - I don't think I need to go as far as surgery.

After reading Zythyra's response, I realized I better change my vote also. I originally voted "I am not considering hormones or gender surgery". That was a long time ago (I was the first vote). Now I'm a few weeks into HRT, so obviously a change was in order.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 05, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
After reading Zythyra's response, I realized I better change my vote also. I originally voted "I am not considering hormones or gender surgery". That was a long time ago (I was the first vote). Now I'm a few weeks into HRT, so obviously a change was in order.

Wow what a progression!

Quote from: omdorastrix on February 05, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
I've been considering it, but only really started researching it - and I've still got to find a doctor and psych to start down the path...

One of my biggest frustrations has been my very-much male presentation, specifically in the face~
~From what I read some kind of low-dose E should provide a good bit of feminization for my face and body.

I feel like I can pass now fairly easily (visually) with a wig and make-up, mannerisms and voice (if I chose to present as female) will come with practice.  So a little nudge in the right direction is what I'm looking for - I don't think I need to go as far as surgery.

Although YMMV, Low Dose E probably won't do much for the feminization that you sound like you're looking for.
You can use a higher dose, possibly full transition doses. I think depending on what you are specifically looking for, you may be able to make some changes and then back down to a 'maintenance dose'. You will need to drop your T if it is in the normal male range, which isn't always the case. Have it checked, lower it into a female range for the E to be more effective.
Some T blockers will give you some feminizing effects over time by themselves. What you read is guidelines that may or may not apply to you. The only way to find out is to find a knowledgeable doctor, and start out low and move up if you want. You can always back down if you are finding them to be uncomfortable. On the other hand, you may find that it is what you really want and higher doses could be right. There isn't any way of knowing until you start. Over the course of over two years with blockers, I've changed my dose several times. 8 Months of E has seen a couple changes in dosage.
Even though there is a fair amount of information out there on low dose HRT, not that many Dr's are that familiar with it. And there really isn't enough information to speculate what is going to be the right doses. There isn't an effective range to go by. And just winging it on your own is really out of the question. Although it isn't as dangerous in most cases as what has happened in the past when people tried to go it alone with full transition doses, it is still dangerous. A knowledgeable Dr is a must. As it turns out, just lowering the doses doesn't always give you the results you're looking for. You have to stay on top of it. And so does your Dr. There are still complications that can come up that are dangerous. Regular blood work, full comp panels w/ available and free T are needed, along with the usual indications of other problems that can come up. Your Dr of choice should be well aware of all of this, otherwise you should get one who understands what is current. Very current.
If they need information, I use a center that is very current. They are constantly upgrading their information and Dr's can get that information from them. They are pretty much the people that started low dose with a base line of information that is needed to make informed diagnoses.
Done properly, Low Dose can be safer than most meds that are handed out these days.
But lack of knowledge can make them  dangerous to use. Unfortunately, there are Dr's out there that are not current and are just guessing based on old information. It really pays to have a talk with them and find out their extent of knowledge about HRT, both full transition doses and Low Dose HRT. It is not just a matter of using lower does. There's more to it.
There are to many different combinations of things to really know how any one person is going to react to them.
Really what you are going to be doing is using side effects from different drugs to achieve something they weren't designed for. But the good news is that they have been documented for full transition levels for a long time. The information coming in about Low Dose is gaining, but it is still not as close to a complete picture as higher doses are.

A constant theme you will hear is that a therapist is a very good idea to help sort out things with you, a Dr that is current on Low Dose is essential. If you need to educate them and have to push them to find current information, so be it. You'll be doing yourself a favor and it will be helping those following in your steps towards using Low Dose HRT.
Ativan

*Hey Sevan!  :)*

Quote from: agfrommd on February 05, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
After reading Zythyra's response, I realized I better change my vote also. I originally voted "I am not considering hormones or gender surgery". That was a long time ago (I was the first vote). Now I'm a few weeks into HRT, so obviously a change was in order.

How do you like them so far? I freaked at how well I felt from Spiro alone. The E was the icing on the cake for me.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on February 05, 2013, 04:31:52 PM
How do you like them so far? I freaked at how well I felt from Spiro alone. The E was the icing on the cake for me.
Ativan

Well so far it's just low dose estradiol.

But I like it. Aside from noticing smells more and breast tenderness, the most pronounced effect has been a total change in the sexual arousal/release mechanism.

My next appt. is 2/18. My doc doesn't believe in adding more than one med at a time, so if I see negative effects he knows what it's from. I imagine he's going to start me on AAs then.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 05, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
Aside from noticing smells more and breast tenderness, the most pronounced effect has been a total change in the sexual arousal/release mechanism.

I totally get that. My description is that everything is just smoother.
That and I catch myself in these totally indulgent feminine states of mind.
I find myself female in dreams more than I used to. It's a nice way to wake up most days...
My creativity has gone up a lot, especially my guitar playing oddly enough. Especially Blues tunes.
I'm back to working on my photography again, too.
Ativan

Quote from: agfrommd on February 05, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
After reading Zythyra's response, I realized I better change my vote also. I originally voted "I am not considering hormones or gender surgery". That was a long time ago (I was the first vote). Now I'm a few weeks into HRT, so obviously a change was in order.

Congrats!!!

2+ months into HRT, I'm feeling completely right with it. There's already some breast development, subtle changes in skin, and my emotions are much closer to the surface.

Z

I wish I could, but I live in norway. So unless I lie my ass off, I will never get any surgeries or hormones.

Quote from: Faun on February 09, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
I wish I could, but I live in norway. So unless I lie my ass off, I will never get any surgeries or hormones.

if you need it
lie

I just looked at current vote totals.

QuoteI am taking or have taken hormones or have had some type of gender surgery    26 (35.6%)

I have not taken hormones or had gender surgery, but I'm considering it.    41 (56.2%)

I am not considering hormones or gender surgery    6 (8.2%)

This is fascinating; over 1/3 of us are doing, or have done, some sort of medical treatment, and over 1/2 of us are considering it. Total of 91.8%

When I first joined Susan's Androgyne Forum a few years ago, there weren't very many of us in those two categories, the majority wasn't considering (or saying openly that they/we were).

Z

Far as I can remember it was only Kinkly and Sevan who were doing medical transition to an androgyne body when this was started.

Two years (and two days) ago I started Spiro.
I don't remember how long I was considering it, but I know it was months, maybe around six.
I started using E patches a little over eight months ago.
I started talking to my Psychologist about E within a couple weeks after I started the Spiro.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on February 09, 2013, 06:09:38 PM
I don't remember how long I was considering it, but I know it was months, maybe around six.

I occasionally wondered, for years, about whether I should consider HRT. I was seriously thinking about it when I started therapy over a year ago. Funny, at around three months into it, I told my therapist that I was absolutely ready to start HRT, and she was willing to write a letter. By my next session, I'd backed off, however shortly after that I decided to start living openly (again) as Z. I'd hoped that would be enough to quiet the dysphoria. It wasn't. Another 9 months went by, and I finally started. From the moment I made this decision, it has felt very right.

Z

I was wrong, I started on the 17 of Feb, 2011. I got the OK, had a blood draw done and then got the script filled.

I went back and looked at some old posts. A lot has changed in two yrs.
Ativan

I would love a full vaginectomy and hysterectomy.

Something to sort out my figure would be nice, too. I have an hourglass waist and I feel like I'm permanently stuck in a tight corset. I wish I could just loosen the strings.

I want to go on spiro, because I am starting to go thin on the top hair wise. I don't know about low dose E (would definitely be low if at all)...probably, maybe not. But I'm in no rush when it comes to that.

Quote from: Brightest After Dawn on February 27, 2013, 02:33:18 PM
I want to go on spiro, because I am starting to go thin on the top hair wise. I don't know about low dose E (would definitely be low if at all)...probably, maybe not. But I'm in no rush when it comes to that.

You may want to look at something besides Spiro for hair loss issues.
Check out the alternatives, different T blockers, they all have different effects, which are mainly side effects.
Ativan.

Yes! You are right, and I have seen the list of side effects for Spiro...pretty scary! I already decided I don't want it. There are other meds that can be prescribed that are safer than Spiro and have less serious side effects / less serious reactions and sensitivities. 

Good morning,

Special thanks to all for this very thoughtful and helpful discussion.  Ativan has been especially comprehensive in her posts; +1 from me-however that little score card works :-*
I am definitely a non binary although happy to acknowledge the journey rather than some changing and illusive goal is what feels so wonderful right now.  I have my "letter" although not required, and expect to start HRT in two days.  I am so excited!  I have been out full-time for about two months and thoroughly enjoying most changes.  Not being passable and not planning to go to the other binary end does seem to make it a bit harder for conventional folks to understand.  Some of my boyfriends and family do feel some loss about the old Jim.  I am also not bothered much by the name or pronoun issues.  I am well known in my rural community and many friends are making a big effort to call me Tessa.  My conviction stems from how absolutely different I now feel after accepting myself as TG and allowing myself to transition.  It really has been like lightning striking over and over again.  A profound, gentle but illuminating lightning!  When I finally allowed myself to CD in public the certainty was astonishing.  Going back is no longer a consideration.  I thought I might shock people but instead I shocked myself with how very good this feels.  Buying and wearing what I like is wonderful.  Of course all kinds of well meaning folks are now the fashionistas!  For them I share this poem:

"Warning"

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit.

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.
Jenny Joseph

I once read that poem to a Bishop - luckily he found it funny.

A good thread to read and vote if you so wish to...
Ativan

I'm considering a breast reduction, after I've had kids so I don't have to worry about breastfeeding.  They're small already but I'd like them to be really small, probably AA, like when I was a teenager.  I like having recognizably female breasts sometimes, but other times I don't, so I want to be able to pack them away without the discomfort of the heavier binders.

I don't plan to go on T - I have a feminine waist and hips, but it doesn't bother me in the least.  I've learned which styles of men's clothes help me appear more masculine in public when I want to, and that's all I really need to feel comfortable.

Quote from: Faun on February 09, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
I wish I could, but I live in norway. So unless I lie my ass off, I will never get any surgeries or hormones.

there's no need to lie if you can find a good sexologist who doesn't work in public health care. they aren't too expensive either, usually. someone who studied under Esben E. P. Benestad, and knows more about non-binaries should not be as hellbent on either or in terms of gender.

the SOC has provisions in it for non binary identities
When Sevan (my spouse) transitioned the old SOC had nothing in it for non binary identites, but due to the pioneering work of a number of androgyns/genderqueers and their therapists the newest SOC has taken into consideration folks like you.

If the first person refuses to help you then move on and look for one who will.
You can get help.

Quote from: cynthialee on April 12, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
the SOC has provisions in it for non binary identities
When Sevan (my spouse) transitioned the old SOC had nothing in it for non binary identites, but due to the pioneering work of a number of androgyns/genderqueers and their therapists the newest SOC has taken into consideration folks like you.

If the first person refuses to help you then move on and look for one who will.
You can get help.

http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf (http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH.pdf)

This is the pdf for WPATH's SOC.

At the time it was written, I was under the care of Dr Walter Bockting.
He is referenced 8x in papers he wrote or co-authored.
Look in the glossary under Genderqueer. There's Walter again.
He was my Psychologist from 2010 until Dec 2012, when he went to Columbia U in NY.
I really miss working with Dr Bockting, he is missed at PHS. But life goes on there.
I feel good just walking through the door. The people at the front desk know me on sight.
Which makes me feel good. Walter did more for me than I think he will ever know.
More than anyone else. He even had a nickname for me. *Ativan tears up a little...

My medical care is still being done by Dr Jamie Feldman. She is referenced 4x for papers she wrote or co-authored.
She is so very cool to work with. I wish she was my regular med Dr.
When it came time to start HRT, I was pretty nervous about it. Jamie stopped that in the first meeting.

Both are writing contributors to the SOC.

Eli Coleman and Bean Robinson are also at the center where I go.
PHS at the UofM in MN USA

Walter was the president of WPATH for a couple years 2010-2011.
Eli Coleman was at one time also. I think from 1999-2003.
He's the Director for PHS now.

So this is my relationship with version 7 of the SOC.

I just got really lucky Having Dr Bockting as my Psychologist and Dr Feldman as my Medical Dr.
I still have a Psycologist there that I see. We're getting there, it takes time. But I'm happy about working with him.
He's way different than Dr Bockting, so I think it's a really good opportunity to learn a new perspective, along with his own expertise.

Read through the pdf if you haven't already. There are a lot of Dr's out there that go by the old versions. Run away!
Version 7 is not perfect, not for everyone, but it is a much better standard, that any Dr you use should be aware of.
The right Dr's and therapists are out there and are worth the extra effort it takes sometimes, to find them.
And if they need any info, they can contact PHS. They do a lot of research work and have current info or can direct them to others if they need additional.
Even if you have to help educate a therapist or Dr, so be it. Do it, you'll be helping those who come after you.
If it wasn't for the people who were there before me, things would not be as good. We can help make it better.
Ativan

Thinking about it. I'd like a more androgynous body. Softer, traditionally feminine features. That sort of thing.

Quote from: Reedling on June 11, 2013, 12:42:28 AM
I've begun and abandoned weight training so many times in the past because I couldn't handle growing the bigger guns, though some part of me comes alive in the gym and loves to lift. :)

Similar here! Weight training may make you less passable, but it will make you healthier. And damn it feels good.

Quote from: Andro(id) on June 19, 2013, 11:43:43 PM
Thinking about it. I'd like a more androgynous body. Softer, traditionally feminine features. That sort of thing.

Similar here! Weight training may make you less passable, but it will make you healthier. And damn it feels good.

Thanks for your comment. I had a gender flipout over the weekend when I couldn't fit my upper arm into a woman's jacket that was
otherwise my size. But the exercise helps put back together mind and body, helps me feel my body as
capacity and not just something to look at. I am trying to build tolerance for this kind of
dysphoria, I think it's about challenging an internalized taboo ("don't look masculine whatever you do"), feels like hell
when it happens.

Quote from: Reedling on June 20, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Thanks for your comment. I had a gender flipout over the weekend when I couldn't fit my upper arm into a woman's jacket that was
otherwise my size. But the exercise helps put back together mind and body, helps me feel my body as
capacity and not just something to look at. I am trying to build tolerance for this kind of
dysphoria, I think it's about challenging an internalized taboo ("don't look masculine whatever you do"), feels like hell
when it happens.

Ugh, yeah. That sounds frustrating. And those slim jacket arms look amazing, don't they? Was it a blazer? Wonder how much you'd lose in the delts/ triceps/ biceps on HRT. At any rate, the shoulder fit is tough regardless of gender. Guys always wear it too baggy; even a tailor can only do so much. You can look into some made-to-measure options online. Great value for what you get: nearly bespoke clothing. You always look your best in clothing that fits your body.

For me, gender is a social construct; health is biology. Health is about keeping this fragile substrate of blood and flesh alive, no matter how i present myself. First comes sleep, eating well, decent muscle mass and low body fat. Then everything else. Thinking about it, you could probably still work out on HRT. With less testosterone it will be harder to gain significant muscle mass.

The only thing keeping me at "might get estrogen" right now is the fact that I don't know how it'll impact me sexually. I do want to have kids and I do appreciate my reproductive masculinity...

If I can ensure full functionality, I'll go for it headlong.