Basically, I have a lot of questions about which I am and I'm not sure how to tell the difference. What is the difference between an ftm and a butch? I'm not trying to be a smart alec here, I really am unsure beyond that one thinks of themselves as male and transitions and the other thinks of themselves as female and doesn't. How do I know which I am? Is there a difference in how one feels about their body? Hopefully something definable?
Well obviously there is a difference or no one would really transition. I actually think it's a good question because I think there are people in our population who were once butch. And also there are some butches that are VERY threatened by the very idea of ftms, since their reaction is so strong, makes me wonder if they are really trans and fighting it.
One thing I have noticed though is that butches have a love/hate relationship with their female bodies. I have no love for my body. None of the ftms I know at least have a love for their body.
--Jay Jay
I think that with butch, at the end of the day you still want to be a woman, although sometimes it is really hard to be a butch woman. I do think, though, that a lot of butches struggle with their bodies as well. Trying to constantly find that balance between presenting as more masculine, and liking things that are considered to be masculine, along with the sense that they too are women.
I think it's okay to let yourself not be certain, to give yourself time and space to find out who you are, and where that might lead you. Coming from the other direction, I spent a number of years trying to convince myself I was a "gay man" just because I wanted an arena in which I could express my masculinity and my femininity together. I still want that, but I'm clear now that I've been wanting that as a woman.
Just because it seems like the "official options" are limited doesn't mean you have to choose one and stick to it.
Take your time :).
Butch women identify themselves as female where transmen do not.
I have lived the life (althought not a productive one) of a butch woman and I still felt like something was missing. Before I knew about being transgendered being butch was the closest thing I could identify with. What helped me get through deciding if I was butch or a transman was looking back in my younger days before I knew what either were. As a child I grew up saying "I wish I was a boy." never "I wish I was a butch woman."
So yeah the struggles may be similar to some degree but at the end if the day butch women tend to identify with their sex assigned at birth while many ftms don't
The term "Butch" itself does not necessarily have a gender assigned to it. A man can be butch, a woman can be butch, etc. just like a man can be feminine, a woman can be feminine, etc. The term "FTM" is generally considered a gender identity, while "Butch" is considered a descriptor of someone's gender behaviors (although it can definitely be a gender identity as well! all depends on the person and how they identify).
In the example you're asking about (Butch vs. FTM) I believe you're referring to the term butch in terms of someone who identifies as female, but considers themselves butch, whereas FTM means that the person identifies as male (and may or may not be butch -- it's not a requirement).
This may not be helpful. But try not to live to a label. They mean nothing. Define yourself in what you are happy with for you.
Most of the labels are given by well meaning (?) people who want to be able to put groups into boxes. I'm not happy with that. I think when you get to know large group of people they are indeed very diverse; even so called normal people vary a lot. That is what defines normal; a large variation in what we are, all of which are normal.
I've always known it as: Butch = happy in female body with masculine qualities.
FTM = Not happy in female body and wanting to tradition to a male one.
As for knowing what one you are, it's really up to you, there is not set questionnaire to fill out to see if you are FTM. Take your time to figure out who you are and live your life how it will make you happy, there is no pressure to fit in any category or define yourself by any affiliation to ether Butch or FTM. Look at how you live your life and how your body makes you happy or how it does not. How does it effect your state of wellbeing?
Also always remember there are people on here to talk to if you need it :)
I suppose it's quite hard to answer because FTM's don't know what it feels like to be a butch woman, and butch women don't know what it feels like to be FTM, one group can't feel what the other does. I think that butch people can probably feel some level of discomfort with their bodies, but not to the degree that we do, and they probably don't get bothered by being called "she" or "ma'am" or things like that because they're not men.
I dont know much about it but I always thought simple of it as:
Ftm = to be a boy, but not nessesarry being boyish
butch not to be a boy, but being boyish
I am following someone called SLO Fox on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox)
I think she (does identifies as she and uses her girl name) shows some of the issues faced by butches. But she also does seem to have gender identity issues of some kind. I think she does a good job discussing these and does interesting videos.
(Yes, I do spend too much time on youtube. :))
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 03:06:05 AM
One thing I have noticed though is that butches have a love/hate relationship with their female bodies.
Apparently, some butches don't feel this way about their bodies...
Quote from: Arch on July 28, 2012, 01:36:43 PM
Apparently, some butches don't feel this way about their bodies...
You're right. I was thinking of those with some degree of dysphoria.
--Jay Jay
Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.
Trans men identify as men. They present and identify themselves as male but do not necessarily identify themselves as masculine. Nearly all (I really don't want to say all due to the fact that there might be somebody who doesn't fit this) have discomfort int heir own skin, and would like to socialize as male.
Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 02:19:49 PM
You're right. I was thinking of those with some degree of dysphoria.
It's not like I'm a fount of lesbian knowledge, of course.
I really like what Natkat said. Seemed pretty insightful, as a sort of general guideline.
When I went back into the closet, I tried not to define myself at all--I stopped reading and thinking about transsexuality. But I still had the male name and the male presentation and my past identification as trans. I still introduced myself to students as "Mr." A few called me "he" in evals, and one or two asked what pronoun I preferred. Looking back, I guess it was a pretty surreal way to live.
At a certain point, I wanted to do a certain activity that involved a personal statement, and I identified myself as a masculine woman. I didn't know what else to do because I was in such denial. But it felt horrible to label myself that way, and I blocked it out until I stumbled across the personal statement years later. I had literally no memory of writing it and was aghast.
One of my defining moments came when I was 44 and staring into the mirror in the women's bathroom across from my office. I saw a hair that might have been gray or really really blond, and I thought, "Oh, my god, I'm going to die a woman."
I buried the thought for a few more years while my dysphoria got worse and worse. But that moment--the true and concrete realization that if I continued to do nothing, I would be living as a woman for the rest of my existence--filled me with such horror. Not because people tend to respect women less or because women tend to earn less or any of that--it was just the BEINGNESS that I couldn't deal with.
That's not who I am, that's not who I am. And yet I saw a woman staring back at me in the mirror. I venture to guess that such weirdly Kurtzian moments do not happen to butch women.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 28, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.
I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.
Quote from: Icarus389 on July 28, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.
SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 11:47:00 PM
SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.
--Jay Jay
My quote and question were mainly directed at Nygeel since he knows a butch woman who has had top surgery, but I'll have to check out SLO Fox's videos to see if it's a similar circumstance. Thanks Jay Jay.
Quote from: Icarus389 on July 28, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
I'm very curious, does this person live day to day life as a man or a woman? I've been living between the lines for 4 years or so and most of the time I'm taken as a man, but when I disclose that I'm a woman (especially in situations where I am looking for employment) 90% of the time I'm shot down. It's made life very difficult for me and I'm curious how others are dealing with similar circumstances.
She lives as a woman as far as I know. Had top surgery in maybe 2004. I haven't spoken to her in a while.
My therapist says he had a butch client who had top surgery and who went on hormones for a few months and then stopped. I mean, that was the original plan. She only wanted some vocal changes, I guess.
What this also makes me think is that there are some people who'd like to be a bit of both. It's not a strict requirement to be either a man or a woman.
I was talking to a lesbian friend this weekend and the difference came up in conversation. She found that she tended to switch from Butch to Femme when she was first exploring what it meant to be a lesbian, but eventually found that she was comfortable with the masculine side of her personality.
She is now quite Butch, but only ever sees herself as a woman, although after spending time with another transwoman and myself had wondered where she would settle as she drifted from a feminine presentation.
She understands when I say that I have to change my body to be comfortable with myself, but as she cannot make the conceptual leap to the same place; is now quite clear that she could never see herself as a man.
It could be that you are, for want of a label that isn't one , Genderqueer. By that I mean that your identity simply doesn't fit any of the existing labels, and you will make your own space in the Gender Spectrum.
As we are all individuals that is a perfectly reasonable view of the world as far as I am concerned. It is one that I am partially wearing at the moment, thanks to many of the local Lesbians having trouble being around someone with a male history. I am not sure I want to be associated with people that have that attitude, so I will describe myself as something else.
Karen.
Quote from: justmeinoz on July 29, 2012, 07:13:49 AM
...thanks to many of the local Lesbians having trouble being around someone with a male history. I am not sure I want to be associated with people that have that attitude, so I will describe myself as something else.
I know someone like that, sadly. She identifies as a butch lesbian. FWIW, I've been talking to her about it and she seems to be making great progress and becoming much more accepting of the identities and choices of others.
She was very confusing to me for a while. She seemed very upset by
what she perceived as a trend of FTMs, like she was losing people from "her community". She felt the need to reiterate to me several times how she never had any plans to transition (but she has a tendency to repeat herself in general). Claims she felt pressure from people to transition. She said that because she presented so masculine, people would assume she wanted to transition and she kept having to correct people. I tried to make it very clear that I never made any such assumption about her and that I had never misgendered her.
What was so confusing to me though is that she doesn't seem offended when she's misgendered as a man. She even seems to be flattered by it. It's just that it took me a while to figure out where she was coming from. I think I finally got it--that she's very comfortable as a very masculine woman, but definitely a woman and very proud to be a woman. When people misgender her, she corrects them politely, with a little humor even, but actually seems to kind of get a kick out of it rather than get offended.
Quote from: Padma on July 29, 2012, 05:09:33 AM
What this also makes me think is that there are some people who'd like to be a bit of both.
Or neither. >.>
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 29, 2012, 09:01:09 AM
Or neither. >.>
Hence my use of the word "some" :). And you don't have to be "butch" to be in touch with your masculinity.
Trans women can be butch (but they cannot be trans men).
I've never identified as butch, because I'm not a lesbian. But I have always felt a little male. Since I have found out I was transgender, I am now not sure whether I am ftm or genderqueer. I know of someone who still identifies as genderqueer, but got top surgery, is taking T (and definitely looks male), etc. I believe she could have been described as butch before.
I dress entirely male and have been identified male for a few seconds, which makes me very happy. I hate being called "ma'am" with a passion. So in a lot of ways I have many things in common with people who totally identify as ftm.
I've thought of this as f towards m, in my own case and right now. I am sort of on a merry ride (though not always so merry?) and don't know where this all will lead.
You might read the androgyne forum. There is a LOT of variety in that group. Right now there is a discussion of people who do think of themselves as non-binary and are taking some sort of physical therapy (hormones and/or surgery). I'm actually a bit surprised how big that group is.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on July 28, 2012, 11:47:00 PM
SLO Fox you mean? I just thought you might be quoting me. I think as a woman. I have watched many (but not all her videos). She introduces herself as Allison. I think she gets mistaken for a guy and doesn't mind it. She has talked about restroom issues because of her male appearance.
--Jay Jay
Can you link to SLO Fox? My searching isn't finding anything. Thanks.
One of the main differences is the social aspect. Even though butches can't relate to most women in the sense of femininity, they still consider women the same sex and interact with them as such. Even though they relate better to men, they still treat men like the opposite sex. They wouldn't be able to function socially if they were expected to react like a guy when dealing with people. The opposite is true for FTMs - it's "women and other men" to them instead of "men and other women".
Butch is just a very masculine variation of a woman. Superficially similar to an FTM but fundamentally different because FTM is a male with a birth defect.
Quote from: dalebert on July 29, 2012, 08:52:52 AM
She was very confusing to me for a while. She seemed very upset by what she perceived as a trend of FTMs, like she was losing people from "her community". She felt the need to reiterate to me several times how she never had any plans to transition (but she has a tendency to repeat herself in general). Claims she felt pressure from people to transition. She said that because she presented so masculine, people would assume she wanted to transition and she kept having to correct people. I tried to make it very clear that I never made any such assumption about her and that I had never misgendered her.
What was so confusing to me though is that she doesn't seem offended when she's misgendered as a man. She even seems to be flattered by it. It's just that it took me a while to figure out where she was coming from. I think I finally got it--that she's very comfortable as a very masculine woman, but definitely a woman and very proud to be a woman. When people misgender her, she corrects them politely, with a little humor even, but actually seems to kind of get a kick out of it rather than get offended.
I have a friend almost exactly like this. She is a wonderful person, but felt threatened by the "rising trend of lesbian transitioners". Granted, I could sort of understand, since sadly Butches are treated terrible where I lived.
The difference in my mind is fairly simple (though, this is an oversimplification of what both groups experience). Butches are women. They deal with a lot of body shame, but at the end of the day, they are women. FTMs are male. We deal with body shame on a different level in that it doesn't match who we are, so we take steps to change it and present as the men we are.
Quote from: Andy8715 on July 29, 2012, 04:32:44 PM
Can you link to SLO Fox? My searching isn't finding anything. Thanks.
Sure. I think she does very good thoughtful videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox/videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSLOfox/videos)
--Jay Jay
I guess my main problem is that I don't necessarily feel like a guy, but I don't feel like a girl. I'm more comfortable with strangers identifying me as male, and I've wanted top surgery since I learned of it, but to fully transition feels like a leap I'm not sure if I'm ready to take, but due to having to function in society, I think it would be the easiest option to take hormones.
To put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair. I don't feel like that makes me FTM, and I don't think I could be fit into the butch category either.
Genderqueer is a wonderful term and I love what it stands for, but you can't make a living or have a healthy life by living in between the lines. I've tried for years and each day just gets harder.
If you ARE androgyne, genderqueer, bigender, or one of the other non-binary types of people, then you still have to decide whether you want to be legally male or legally female just so you can get by in the world. So the legal aspect is a case of the lesser of two evils. Choose the one you are most comfortable with? If you have top surgery, you can change your documents or not change them. It's up to you.
You don't have to go on T, but it sounds like you sort of want to. If you do, you can start on a low dose and see how it goes, or stop and then start, or whatever.
But, unless I misunderstand you, this comment seems pretty telling to me:
QuoteTo put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair.
I would advise you to think very carefully about all of this (I'm sure you have been doing so) if you are interested in transition JUST for the social benefits of being male and not because you identify as male or identify as something other than simply female. Are women not treated with respect in your family/community/city? Could you get some or most of the social benefits by moving or training or augmenting your education?
From what I understand, not all trans men want a penis anyway, so that's not necessarily a valuable criterion - but as Arch says, you need to suss out for yourself whether or not you feel that you're a man.
I agree with Arch on this. If this is really it, which I am not entirely sure of, I think you could regret your decision. Yes, people do end up regretting it. Not too many people, but it happens.
I agree how hard it is to live on the end between. I find it very hard sometimes. There ARE people who do transition making a full transition and still identify as genderqueer. But they do it for reasons of feeling very dysphoric in their own body (wondering if this is me). Some people do hrt for a short period or chest surgery only for the same purpose. There are good reasons and bad reasons to do this, and I agree with Arch that social status maybe that is not so good a one.
Sometimes women have a rough time in our society but there are problems that men face as well such as higher amts of violence, being less able to show their feelings, etc. etc. Each gender has it's gender stereotypes and straightjackets as well. Males for instance are less able to wear female clothes, whereas women are free to wear male clothes. Be careful what you wish for.
A book you might enjoy reading would be The Testosterone Files. It talks a lot about the social and emotional consequences of T. He is happy how he is, but I don't believe he sugarcoats anything.
I agree re: the penis. I have mild downstairs dysphoria. But it is not overwhelming.
Compared to our sisters, very few transguys have that surgery due to the expense, and that not everyone is happy re the alternatives.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: Icarus389 on July 30, 2012, 01:27:03 AM
To put it bluntly, I've never wanted a penis, but I want the benefits of society that come with having one, a flat chest, and facial hair.
I can relate to that. I don't want a woman's body but there were times when I'd have traded societal benefits with them--if I could have stayed male-bodied but be treated like a woman by society... somehow. Hypothetically, obviously. Sometimes I feel that when gay men obsess over str8 guys, maybe it comes from this sort of desire--not to have a woman's body necessarily, but simply to be treated like a woman in the traditional sense. It's almost like an emotional rather than physical dysphoria. I certainly wouldn't say I have it strong enough to call it dyshporia though. I've actually adapted pretty well to my situation and grown into my culturally-defined man-ness.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 28, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
Butches tend to identify as women, and identify as butch. They also present and identify themselves as being masculine. Some do have a level of discomfort in their own skin and I know of at least one person who IDs as butch and has had top surgery.
Trans men identify as men. They present and identify themselves as male but do not necessarily identify themselves as masculine. Nearly all (I really don't want to say all due to the fact that there might be somebody who doesn't fit this) have discomfort int heir own skin, and would like to socialize as male.
Butch is a far more complex identity then a lot of people who have never associated with the identity or sub-culture realise. Butches are not always woman-identified (or necessarily lesbian-identified), though many certainly are woman-identified. But some butches identify as neither female or male, genderqueer or genderfluid. Some also identify as male without identifying as transmen or trans-anything. Some identify as both transmen and butches.
The problem with trying to create fixed identity labels is that they never really work. You'll always be dealing with human beings who are diverse and can't be shoved into little boxes, and every person sees their identity as different from the next even if they share the same "label."
Butch can be just as much a sex/gender identity as transman, btw, to those who have stated otherwise.
If you want to know the difference between butch and transmale then ask a butch and a transmale...then ask another butch and another transmale...and another and another. And from each one you might very well get a different answer, and some of them might identify as both butch and transmale. Just know who you are. Don't depend on little boxes to know who you are or try to shove others into them. Just be yourself.
I think it's kind of human nature to want to be part of something or identify with something or with other people.
That said, I also think a lot of people truly just want to "be themselves". There's people who identify their gender as female (and they're physically female) yet they feel more comfortable with short hair and wearing male clothing. If those same people are also sexually attracted to women I think that's basically butch. But I feel that butch is just another label ... another identifier for people to cling on to and be a "part of" something.
I think a lot of guys who end up being transsexual (FTM) may explore a lot of different things. Especially if you're over a certain age. Like back in the 80s and 90s (and certainly before that) you might have heard of a male to female transsexual, but it was likely that you hadn't even heard of trans anything. Like I had no idea trans even existed. So if you happened to be female-bodied but didn't identify like that you were pretty confused. I don't know if it's actually better now because really there's just more options to be confused by!
All you can really do is experiment and try and find what actually makes you feel happy and confident and comfortable in your own skin.
Quote from: Arch on July 30, 2012, 01:58:40 AM
I would advise you to think very carefully about all of this (I'm sure you have been doing so) if you are interested in transition JUST for the social benefits of being male and not because you identify as male or identify as something other than simply female. Are women not treated with respect in your family/community/city? Could you get some or most of the social benefits by moving or training or augmenting your education?
I didn't necessarily mean social standing by being male, but being treated as male. When I'm waiting for the bus downtown and a homeless person approaches me and see me as male, he doesn't harass me. Or when a gas station attendant looks at me after I've bought beer and she smiles at me and talks about how young I am cause she didn't actually read my license. In most situations with men, when I'm taken as female, they see it as a personal challenge to themselves which ends in a confrontation.
If I moved to another area, perhaps it would be better for me, but I've been living in a decent sized city with a large LGBT community, so I didn't really expect it to be as difficult as it has been. I've been unemployed for most of a year. I work in the service industry and have years of experience and good recommendations, I can get dozens of interviews, but as soon as they see me and realize that I'm not a man, I don't get the job.
I've been considering taking T for around 7 years, carefully weighing my options. I think one of the reasons I haven't is because I've been thinking "What if they realize I'm trans and I can't get a job?" but at this point it doesn't seem to matter.
Thanks for responding. I understand your position a little better now. And of course I should recognize that if people peg you as a masculine woman, they are more likely to give you trouble than if you were stereotypically feminine.
Your question--what if they think you are trans--is one that many of us worry about. If you aren't always passing now, then you would probably go through a transition phase--I call it an androgynous phase--before you start passing fully. That period can take months or even years, but once you get through it...well, things are usually much better. But you almost certainly have to go through it, unfortunately. If your worries about that outweigh your desire to transition, then maybe you just haven't gotten to the point where you must transition--or maybe transition, even partial, isn't right for you.
All of this is very helpful, I'm sure. ::)
A trans friend I know used to ask undecided people, "What if you could transition now, just instantly transition, and be guaranteed that you wouldn't lose family, friends, job, home, or anything else you value? Would you do it?" I guess he uses that question to separate the people who don't want to transition from the people who do want to but who are held back by fear. Does that question help at all?
Quote from: Arch on July 31, 2012, 12:50:27 AM
A trans friend I know used to ask undecided people, "What if you could transition now, just instantly transition, and be guaranteed that you wouldn't lose family, friends, job, home, or anything else you value? Would you do it?" I guess he uses that question to separate the people who don't want to transition from the people who do want to but who are held back by fear. Does that question help at all?
Ha! That's a good question. Yes, I would transition, so I agree that it places me in the section of people who do want to transition but I'm held back by fear. I think transitioning would bring me closer to being myself, not that "myself" is entirely male, but falls more in alignment with male than female.
Thanks Arch, I think you really have helped me out.
Quote from: Arch on July 31, 2012, 12:50:27 AM
A trans friend I know used to ask undecided people, "What if you could transition now, just instantly transition, and be guaranteed that you wouldn't lose family, friends, job, home, or anything else you value? Would you do it?" I guess he uses that question to separate the people who don't want to transition from the people who do want to but who are held back by fear. Does that question help at all?
While I get this question, I think it's an unfair question. That's like asking, "If you could have your version of a perfect, functioning male body right now without any surgery or anything, would you?" I wouldn't assume those who choose not to transition are held back by fear. There's a ton of factors involved in choosing no, just as there are a ton of factors involved in choosing yes. Unfortunately we don't live in the reality of magic wands and genies who grant 3 wishes to make everything instantly perfect for us all :(
Quote from: insideontheoutside on July 31, 2012, 03:56:11 AM
While I get this question, I think it's an unfair question. That's like asking, "If you could have your version of a perfect, functioning male body right now without any surgery or anything, would you?" I wouldn't assume those who choose not to transition are held back by fear. There's a ton of factors involved in choosing no, just as there are a ton of factors involved in choosing yes. Unfortunately we don't live in the reality of magic wands and genies who grant 3 wishes to make everything instantly perfect for us all :(
I think you've misunderstood the purpose and context of the question. He's not assuming that the people who don't transition are held back only by fear; he's taking most of the fear out of the equation so that people who DO identify as male (or mostly male) but who ARE impeded by fear of loss can see what is really holding them back. If the answer is yes, then there are still obstacles to overcome, and some might still be insurmountable. And if the answer is no, then the next question would be, "Okay--why not?"
I actually gave the wrong impression when I used the word "instantly," by the way--I can't remember exactly how he phrases it, but it's not actually a magical transition. He says something like "if you could transition right now" or something like that.
With that said, I don't really see that your question is all that different from my friend's. He uses his in specific situations that, to me, seem similar to Icarus'. If I were asking your question, I would add, "If not, why not?" And if the person were held back by fear of loss, he would then start talking about that. But I like my friend's question because it removes the one biggest variable that most of us face.