Susan's Place Transgender Resources

As I now allow myself to let go of the man programming and allow myself to feel feminine feelings
I like it more and more. It feels like I finally have found balance in a lot of things.
Anger and frustration are turning into crying which is welcome but I have to watch that it doesn't move into depression.
I am taking care of my body.  I used to chew, bite my fingers till they bled. Now I have picture perfect fingers and toes. I'm eating better (and less) taking supplements.  I cut my drinking 80%.
I bathe now rather than just take a shower. I use a loofa, scrub my nail and shave (everywhere) flowed by a Eucalyptus /mint body lotion.
I'm using makeup doing my nails  and trying woman's shorts and tops. Something I said I wouldn't do 2 month ago. Now thinking about HRT.
Am I just delaying the Inevitable?

Can't say for you Joann, but I can tell you my experiences. When I first became aware of my gender issues, I thought of myself as someone where male and female characteristics coexist. As time has gone on and I'm frustrated at being misgendered, not being seen who I really am, I am moving steadily more toward adopting a completely female presentation. I think I am still non-binary gendered, but maybe a non-binary who would be more comfortable presenting as a female. I also think it's possible that I've been a MtF transexual since birth who didn't know it and played a male role for so many years that some of the male characteristics I've been forced to take on have leaked into my identity.

But that's just me. Only you can say what's right for you.

My path was through androgyny. Like turing up a dimmer I slowly evolved as HRT took it's effect. After about 4-5 months it was very obvious what was going on and I found myself being fulltime. This type of transition worked great for me.

Quote from: joann on July 31, 2012, 09:48:31 AM
I am taking care of my body.  I used to chew, bite my fingers till they bled. Now I have picture perfect fingers and toes. I'm eating better (and less) taking supplements.  I cut my drinking 80%.
I bathe now rather than just take a shower. I use a loofa, scrub my nail and shave (everywhere) flowed by a Eucalyptus /mint body lotion.

Well, as you say, that part is just taking care of yourself, a full blown man can do that. I also do those things. I used to paint my nails too, but it got too much hard work.

Maybe this is just a way towards full transition for you or maybe it is you exploring the areas you once felt were denied to you but that doesn't mean an androgyne is just a weak or early TS.

As for androgyny, no idea, I still think that's a concept used to sell perfume.

I think that there are some people for whom androgyny is a space to pass through on their way to yet another gender, and for others being an androgyne is their final destination. Both are totally valid, but what can be uncomfortable is when people suggest that androgynes are actually binary trans folks who haven't come to terms with their identity yet. It can feel just as harsh as telling a bisexual that really she's a lesbian who isn't ready to come out. Maybe there are a few lesbians who act as bisexuals while coming to terms with their identity, and the same is probably true of androgynes and other trans folks, but it's not the only way or even the majority.
Some people really are androgynes pure and simple.
Others may visit the androgyne forest on their way to another destination.
Both are real, both are valid. Neither is better than the other.

Quote from: troyboi on July 31, 2012, 12:32:53 PM
I think that there are some people for whom androgyny is a space to pass through on their way to yet another gender, and for others being an androgyne is their final destination.
Some people really are androgynes pure and simple.
Others may visit the androgyne forest on their way to another destination.
Both are real, both are valid. Neither is better than the other.

Sorry for dissecting your post, but these points are important.

I grew up with the idea of being MTF, but it never seemed 100%.
I assumed it was denial to the point of going into a hypermasculine phase.
It took extraordinary circumstances to realize that I'm Androgyn.

I identify as non-binary now, because of the confusion between androgynous presentation and Androgyny.
Just as non-binaries can be genderfluid, so could binary gender.
Can circumstance cause a change in gender? Why not?
Although I'm pretty sure that gender is a set thing, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't.

Is Androgyny a step to full transition? It most certainly can as presentation goes.
Is full transition as gender presentation a set determination of gender? Not always.
There are some who remain non-binary. Maybe it is a set thing, gender.

Could be just a realization of a persons true gender that it seems that there may be that step.
Just speculation on my part.

Ativan

There have been quite a few members on this very board that came to the unicorn forest, stayed for a period of time while they explored themselves, and eventually decided to move on toward transition (and sadly away from our forest).

On the other hand there are quite a few members that are long time residents of the same forest, and are perfectly content to live here.

I believe that androgyne feels like a safe landing spot for many while they explore and decide who they are and where they are headed in life. Some will move on while others find a home here.

Quote from: riven1 on July 31, 2012, 03:47:04 PM
There have been quite a few members on this very board that came to the unicorn forest, stayed for a period of time while they explored themselves, and eventually decided to move on toward transition (and sadly away from our forest).

On the other hand there are quite a few members that are long time residents of the same forest, and are perfectly content to live here.

I believe that androgyne feels like a safe landing spot for many while they explore and decide who they are and where they are headed in life. Some will move on while others find a home here.

You said much better in a shorter post what I wanted to say. Thank you.
I fear I may have come across as confrontational. If that is true, I am so very sorry.

In my own humble opinion, yes you are. Happy trails!!!!

for some being androgyne is a stepping stone. But It is also possible to me androgyne full time forever.  It is possible to transition and still see yourself as androgyne.  I can see the possibility of me making a "full" transition but still keeping the beard.

I feel that my experience mirrors Joanne's and AG's. Sort of reverse mirrors I suppose. When I started I felt completely okay with the androgyne type thing. No questions. Now I feel much more ftm. The degree to which I feel more masculine has increased. (Of course, I understand that one can still be androgyne inside a different body.) I think that this has been the most confusing aspect of my journey so far, actually. I feel this is a moving target or something.


I am quite sure than androgyny is NOT just the first step in all cases. The thing is that when you start this, esp at a later age, you have been living as whether gender for a long time. You are socialized (or maybe not so well) in that gender. You have no idea where it will lead. I feel like I am on the Wild Mouse, anyone remember that ride?


--Jay Jay

Thanks for the replies. Many good points.
I like the idea of the androgen forest, a place where we can explore gender.
For 20 years i had a gender filter ( "dont do those things or they'll think your gay"). Now that its switched off im exploring all those "forbidden" aspects in my personality. Some i like and some i don't  but now i have a choice to be as i wish. Not as society has dictated for me. Androgyny is alluring to me. I can be a hybrid. (=

Quote from: joann on August 01, 2012, 07:57:59 AM
Androgyny is alluring to me. I can be a hybrid. (=

Upsides and downsides. Upside: You can be yourself. Downside: No one will see you as you are.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on July 31, 2012, 01:41:24 PM
Sorry for dissecting your post, but these points are important.

I grew up with the idea of being MTF, but it never seemed 100%.
I assumed it was denial to the point of going into a hypermasculine phase.
It took extraordinary circumstances to realize that I'm Androgyn.

I identify as non-binary now, because of the confusion between androgynous presentation and Androgyny.
Just as non-binaries can be genderfluid, so could binary gender.
Can circumstance cause a change in gender? Why not?
Although I'm pretty sure that gender is a set thing, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't.

Is Androgyny a step to full transition? It most certainly can as presentation goes.
Is full transition as gender presentation a set determination of gender? Not always.
There are some who remain non-binary. Maybe it is a set thing, gender.

Could be just a realization of a persons true gender that it seems that there may be that step.
Just speculation on my part.

Ativan

Your post is thought provoking. Could you tell me on the differences between androgyny and non-binary, and gender fluid?

Non-binary is one of the umbrella terms that covers everyone who doesn't fit into the gender binary.
Androgyny, as I understand it, is being a mix of both male and female. That's just my definition though and I'm sure there are many ways to be an androgyne.
Gender fluid, as I understand it, means what it sounds like: having a fluid, changing gender identity.

Quote from: Edge on August 01, 2012, 09:24:47 AM
Non-binary is one of the umbrella terms that covers everyone who doesn't fit into the gender binary.
Androgyny, as I understand it, is being a mix of both male and female. That's just my definition though and I'm sure there are many ways to be an androgyne.
Gender fluid, as I understand it, means what it sounds like: having a fluid, changing gender identity.

Androgyne is defined in Susan's wiki as a gender that's not completely male or completely female, so it has been taken by some as a synonym for non-binary.

Some people go full transition and then realize they really are androgynes, and come back partway.

Some people hate the middle parts of their transition, find it awkward and difficult, and go full steam ahead.  Others kind of like it here and tarry for a while but move on.

For some, physical transition has nothing to do with it.  Physical sex is not gender and not only do they not need to match for some of us, they can't.  There isn't a physical human form that matches my gender properly.  Aesthetically, I might want to look different.  I am very curious about what it feels like to live in other kinds of bodies.  But I don't need to change on the outside; I just need to be happy with myself on the inside.

So really, it doesn't have to be a bridge between places.  Or else a lot of us are trolls that live here and don't plan to leave. :D

Quote from: peky on August 01, 2012, 09:08:44 AM
Your post is thought provoking. Could you tell me on the differences between androgyny and non-binary, and gender fluid?

Edge defined it pretty well. I don't think we adhere to very strict interpretations of definitions here. There is always a certain amount of overlap in many of them when compared to each other. That can be confusing, until a person does the same with those definitions.
Androgyn is used as the blanket term here, I have found that it works well despite the initial confusion it generates. To change that on this forum would start a needless and difficult discussion of just what all the definitions and terms really mean. As they all have some similarities to one another, as I said, it would be a long and difficult discussion and would drive the moderaters into overtime. It's happened to a degree, I was a part of some of those discussions and they got very heated and out of control at times. Suffice it to say that the initial confusion it generates is more easily overcome than redefining and refining every term used in this section.
That being said, I think it is prudent to remind ourselves that Androgyne (non-binary) is not a middle ground of the binary spectrum. It doesn't serve those who are in their transitions to refer or define them as non-binary at any stage of their transition. They are binary, moving along a difficult and sometimes impossible journey to align their appearance to their gender. Non-binary or Androgyn is not a spectrum with apparent ends. To define us as something in the middle serves no purpose, as there isn't a middle on the spectrum (if you wish to call it that). They are two different things that do hold a great deal of similarities at various times. Who is to say that at some of these times, they are one and the same at that moment? There is some very real speculation and discussion of this, or at least the discussion can be looked at as that being correct. As a part of those discussions, it can be held as true for the sake of that discussion. The forest is and has been a place for those who wish to reside here, whether as non-binary or not. It is on the road, so to speak, between male to female. But that road doesn't necessarily pass through the forest, yet there are many places that there are access to it. We may reside in the forest and work in a city. It's all just another way of describing the definitions and terms that as Trans*people, we use to make some sense out of the sameness and differences we all experience in our individual ways.

It's not the differences that define, as much as the sameness, that encompasses Trans* people as a whole. Yet it is the differences that we discuss to find the answers to our questions, about who we are. The fact that there are so many similarities to who we are makes defining who we are as individuals difficult. It can be time consuming to wade through what is the same and what is different. It can be difficult, even unreasonable at times. But that is a function of ourselves as individuals trying to use terms and definitions that can have some overlap or a great deal of overlap. It depends on the individual to as to how much there is. This will change as each of us grows in our own understanding of ourselves and where we are (on the road and visiting or a resident?).
I do hold myself to there being to distinct camps, so to speak, and they are binary and non-binary. We have a loose definition that we use and it is the forest and the cities. We do what we can with those definitions. We don't have to define the definitions as much as we would like, but we do use them as best we can.
Just the way I see it today.


Ativan

I will never do SRS.

Some people call themselves non-binary when they aren't sure what they are yet, but most people who describe themselves with the term at some point'll stay there.

Me-I'm non-binary. Doesn't mean I won't be medically transitioning. Doesn't even mean I won't be 'fully' medically transitioning, whatever that means.

Indeed, it might be useful not to think of the binary gender points as "full" and nonbinary gender as "halfway" or "partial."

Quote from: foosnark on August 02, 2012, 10:36:50 AM
Indeed, it might be useful not to think of the binary gender points as "full" and nonbinary gender as "halfway" or "partial."

Especially since some people have more than one gender and that would make us... double full? I don't know. I like Madeline's description of rocking a full pair of horns.
That's why I dislike calling gender a spectrum.

Quote from: Edge on August 02, 2012, 10:55:42 AM
that's why I dislike calling gender a spectrum.

Well it depends on how you think of a spectrum. As a simple line of various colors (like a rainbow) with points in between, it makes little sense. But if you think of a spectrum kind of like those color circles (though I think they'd probably mean actually a three dimensional object) on a program like Photoshop, it's pretty cool. You could be anywhere at all on that circle.
It's a neat analogy (keeping in mind it still stays an analogy).


There's one here but ze ruins it by feeling in somewhat by filling it in with words.
http://alexquantizes.tumblr.com/post/6412740435/profoundboner-thai-madness-genderbread (http://alexquantizes.tumblr.com/post/6412740435/profoundboner-thai-madness-genderbread)




--Jay Jay

Yeah I don't like when male and female are shown as opposite ends.

Spectrum in some uses does not imply having 'ends'. In most uses, it does imply a line from one end to the other.


Continuum would be a better choice, but it still implies a line with directions towards something in each direction.


I have imagined non-binary as a three dimensional space, without an end in any direction.
As a non-binary, you could be at any given point or really as many points as you want, at any given moment.
Somewhere, there is the point 'male, and there is 'female'. They don't necessarily have to be stationary points.
You could draw a straight line between the two and call that the binary spectrum or continuum.
I don't think that is correct, I think any individual moving between those two points can also be at other point(s), also.
But there is the intention of moving from one place to another, but why not also be at other places at the same time, too?


Just speculation, mind you. Spectrum or continuum are simple ways of looking at it, effectively.
A space does open up possibilities that are hard to define with a line.
Adding time or not has an effect that could be used to define the possibilities.


Ativan

Quote from: Edge on August 02, 2012, 10:55:42 AM
Especially since some people have more than one gender and that would make us... double full?

Well as long as you're not double 'full of yourselves' I'll support you in whatever you want to be ;)

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 02, 2012, 09:03:52 PM
Well as long as you're not double 'full of yourselves' I'll support you in whatever you want to be ;)

Heheh I want to take over the world. I'm pretty sure I'm full of myself.

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 02, 2012, 09:03:52 PM
Well as long as you're not double 'full of yourselves' I'll support you in whatever you want to be ;)

I have three. John (Masculine) Jan (feminine) and Joann (androgen)

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 02, 2012, 05:18:12 PM
Spectrum in some uses does not imply having 'ends'. In most uses, it does imply a line from one end to the other.


Continuum would be a better choice, but it still implies a line with directions towards something in each direction.Ativan

I like the concept of yin and yang masculine and feminin together sharing aspects with each other but in balance. And the balance isn't easy to achieve, and when you do it wont last long.

Quote from: agfrommd on August 01, 2012, 08:13:23 AM

Upsides and downsides. Upside: You can be yourself. Downside: No one will see you as you are.

I just wanted to comment that It is possible to be who you are and seen as who you are - sure many people wont know the right words If you are presenting as yourself in a clearly non binary way then people will see that.  I sometime get "Bearded Lady", "What the F..." or "dude in a dress" clearly I'm not really any of those labels but They are better then "Normal guy" or "Normal girl"
I quite like when called bearded Lady :)

Quote
I like the concept of yin and yang masculine and feminin together sharing aspects with each other but in balance. And the balance isn't easy to achieve, and when you do it wont last long.

some of us are able to find a balance that feels right and stays there for a long time.
for me my fluidity reduced it's range and I no longer move into uncomfortable unbalanced state.  you may be lucky to find yourself in a balanced state but it isn't  an easy journey to get to that point
   

Quote from: Edge on August 02, 2012, 09:15:25 PM
Heheh I want to take over the world.

Ya, you and who's army...uh, oh wait, joann is his/her/hir own army!  Yikes! --->runs away--->

Quote from: Edge on August 02, 2012, 09:15:25 PM
Heheh I want to take over the world.

Me too. (crap, now everyone knows)
*Activates secret army, puts them on high alert status*

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 03, 2012, 11:51:24 AM
Me too. (crap, now everyone knows)
*Activates secret army, puts them on high alert status*

Ativan

Oh, crap!  I should have known the androgyne forest was concealing a secret androgyne army ready to leap out from hiding and attack when the time is right.  Prepare thyselves to bow to your new overlords!  (BTW, that wouldn't be one of the seven signs of the apocalypse, would it? ;))

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 03, 2012, 11:23:05 PM
(BTW, that wouldn't be one of the seven signs of the apocalypse, would it? ;) )

Why yes it would.


--Jay Jay

At the moment, when I think about my sense of gender (beyond my need for a female body), something pops into my head from back when I was studying chemistry at school - a "dynamic equilibrium".

The only reason why gender might be static is because we're so strongly conditioned to expect it to be :). Identity is only fixed by our desire to fix it. I'm finding my present fluidity of self (and gender) pretty disconcerting in a way, but at  same time just spot on. Even though I'm going through an MTF transition, the woman I am wants to be masculine. And why not.

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 03, 2012, 11:27:11 AM
Ya, you and who's army...uh, oh wait, joann is his/her/hir own army!  Yikes! --->runs away--->

Yes, a army of one. :police:

Quote from: Padma on August 04, 2012, 12:54:24 AM
At the moment, when I think about my sense of gender (beyond my need for a female body), something pops into my head from back when I was studying chemistry at school - a "dynamic equilibrium".

The only reason why gender might be static is because we're so strongly conditioned to expect it to be :) . Identity is only fixed by our desire to fix it. I'm finding my present fluidity of self (and gender) pretty disconcerting in a way, but at  same time just spot on. Even though I'm going through an MTF transition, the woman I am wants to be masculine. And why not.

Dynamic equilibrium in chemistry.
Which in a sense, is one of the possibilities I have been trying to state, when it comes to non-binaries.


At several points simultaneously, yet still able to change those points.
And still are able to be in a stable state of flux or reaction.
You can be changing, while still being yourself.
Perhaps this is a part of the sense of smoothness I feel from E...


Low dose HRT is like putting the cap back on the bottle, in a sense.
c=kp


;D  Just don't get all shook up about it,  ;) :laugh:


Ativan

Quote from: Violet Bloom on August 03, 2012, 11:23:05 PM
Oh, crap!  I should have known the androgyne forest was concealing a secret androgyne army ready to leap out from hiding and attack when the time is right.  Prepare thyselves to bow to your new overlords!

:D Gen. Edge and  :D Gen. Ativan
Something about that combination... there's a weird metaphor or something in that.

Our privates definitely need serious training :).

Just when you thought the forest was all peaceful.
The training camps are always active.
Doing what, I don't know...


Gen. Ativan (Ret.)

Quote from: Padma on August 04, 2012, 11:11:35 AM
Our privates definitely need serious training :) .

Just so you know, my mind went straight to the gutter.


Gen.? I am king!

Quote from: Edge on August 04, 2012, 03:52:13 PM
Just so you know, my mind went straight to the gutter.

...and fair enough, since that's where my sentence came from...

Quote from: Edge on August 04, 2012, 03:52:13 PM
Gen.? I am king!

*curtsey* Yes, your majesty.


Wizard of Oz - If I Were King of the Forest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOCNY9pJ850#)

Quote from: Edge on August 04, 2012, 03:52:13 PMGen.? I am king!

Wouldn't the androgynes be more likely to have a monarch than a king?  :D

Princess
Prince's

Let's just be an anarchy.

Quote from: Stealthy on August 05, 2012, 01:38:30 AM
Let's just be an anarchy.

You can't tell us what to do!!

;D

How about a benevolent dictator?


"I command you to have fun..."

Quote from: Stealthy on August 05, 2012, 01:38:30 AM
Let's just be an anarchy.

It is. It is the forest after all. The closest thing to a leader is who has the best rope swing.
We are but children playing games. It is one of our greatest strengths, our childlike qualities and outlook.
Just as we are not confined to a gender of binary, we are not confined to the effects of growing older.
We learn, we retain the knowledge as if it would make us mature, but that is not in our nature.
~'OK, fine. If I have to act mature to make you happy I will. Till you go away, again.'~
Neither is having a real hierarchy of leaders, let alone rulers. We don't need the rules, we just get along.

This is a clue to why Andogyny (non-binary) is not really a step towards full transition.
We can transition, if we so desire, but that doesn't qualify it as a complete transition.
It is our general nature to be child like in many ways. It manifests its self in notable ways.
We retain those qualities of being non-binary, even if we appear to be binary.
Lets still have fun, it is a great quality of the forest. It is a reason so many others come to visit.

*it's not an attitude towards living, it's a perception of life*
Ativan

I just realized why Anarchy as a whole always sounds so appealing.


Ativan

When it comes down to it, healthy anarchy means self-rule - which sometimes needs an internal benevolent dictator :) .

Quote from: Padma on August 05, 2012, 01:52:50 PM
When it comes down to it, healthy anarchy means self-rule - which sometimes needs an internal benevolent dictator :) .

~'OK, fine. If I have to act mature to make you happy I will. Till you go away, again.'~

My therapist refers to that as my preadolescent self.
I concur.


Ativan

I like that bit about dynamic equilibrium.

Quote from: Padma on August 05, 2012, 01:52:50 PM
When it comes down to it, healthy anarchy means self-rule - which sometimes needs an internal benevolent dictator :) .

Right on...

Quote from: DrillQuip on August 05, 2012, 07:54:38 PM
Its entirely possible that I'm just an andie...

We have a arrived!

You're nowhere until someone gives you a nickname that ends in a vowel. Maybe in a few years we can talk about how much we hate that nickname, and the world can fall all over itself being politically correct calling us androgynous until we change our mind and insist on being called "non-binary gendered".

From there it's only a short trip to equal rights legislation and maybe our own bathrooms.

Indeed...
Someday people will understand that 'androgynous' is a presentation that anyone can do.
I am an Androgyn, therefore my presentation would be 'androgyn', as opposed to 'androgynous'.
If I happen to look 'androgynous', I don't. I am an Androgyn, so my presentation would be called 'androgyn'.
Even if it has an 'androgynous' look to it.
But since 'androgynous' is a broad representation, you could use 'androgynous'.
If you are not an Androgyn, and have an 'androgyn' look, you don't. You're not an Androgyn.
You would simply look, 'androgynous'.
As a poor, but usable way, replace the word Androgyn with Elephant.
See why that works that way?
Why is this so hard?


Also, nicknames have a way of being demeaning, taking away from who a person is.
Using the same poor example, you wouldn't say 'Hey Elephie'.
It would be demeaning to the status of an Elephant, because it could be used in a demeaning way.
Especially to an Elephant who has never heard or used, or would want to use, the word 'Elephie'.
When used in a personal way, with someone you know, they can be acceptable.
We do this all the time.
But they are especially demeaning when used improperly by well meaning people who are not.
It is partly why I have chosen to use the term 'non-binary', when referring to my gender.
It is harder to say, but is correct. It doesn't work to use a nickname for it.
Even though I am Androgyn. In most references to what I talk about, using 'non-binary' is more correct.


And someday people will get used to the idea that 'they' can be used as a singular pronoun.
If you are non-binary and I refer to you as 'they', you get it. Regardless of your preferred pronoun use.
When I know you personally and remember to, I will use whatever you prefer. We do that.
Why is that so hard?


*I, Me, they, is having a bad day.*
*I will,... get the ->-bleeped-<- over it*
Ativan

Looks like I threw a real twist into this thread before I left for the weekend.  Now that I'm back I'm pleased with the results.  Very fascinating discussion all-round.  I especially like reading Ativan's contributions.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 06, 2012, 02:19:13 PM
And someday people will get used to the idea that 'they' can be used as a singular pronoun.
If you are non-binary and I refer to you as 'they', you get it. Regardless of your preferred pronoun use.
When I know you personally and remember to, I will use whatever you prefer. We do that.
Why is that so hard?

The English language needs this so very badly. It makes me want to throw things when people argue it is grammatically incorrect. Addison, Austen, Chesterfield, Fielding, Ruskin, Scott, and the Bard himself, William Shakespeare, used it as a gender neutral singular. If that isn't good enough for anybody, they can go soak their head.

What does one transition TO, if they are bi-gendered?

Quote from: Jamie D on August 07, 2012, 01:13:20 AM
What does one transition TO, if they are bi-gendered?

...to wherever they have least/no dysphoria, I guess.

Quote from: Padma on August 07, 2012, 01:18:07 AM
...to wherever they have least/no dysphoria, I guess.

I guess.

Being non-binary, one doesn't transition in the sense of binary transitions.
We can change, we can find things that make us more complete to ourselves, as individuals.
But unless we change to being binary in the stricter sense, we don't transition.
We can 'transition' from our birth gender to what we want, but at our core we remain non-binary.
As some have discovered, they really weren't non-binary to begin with.
Some think they have always been binary and do transition to their gender, only to find that it is non-binary.
You could then call it a transition, because it is.
But a better definition, for most of us, I would think, is 'change'.
As we find our paths, discover more about ourselves as individuals, change is probably inevitable.
I look at it as a journey, less as a transition.
We change as we each find our definition of who we are as non-binaries.
But a transformation implies something different.
So I feel more comfortable calling it a change, in the context of Trans*.
I suppose a way of looking at it, is that we are unicorns.
We can change our binary gender if we so desire, but we will still be unicorns.
Transsexuals have described their transitions as changing from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
Maybe some of us are Pegasus. With a unicorn horn, just the same.
Could we look at it as rising from the ashes of our childhood? A Phoenix?
I know of at least a couple who do. Is that a transition or change?
I am transitioning to who I wish to be, but it is only by changing those things that I feel I need to.
I will still be male, I will still be female. Just finding my own individual center place.
Which it would seem, to be a different place for each non-binary.
Do you suppose that being non-binary encompasses the binary world?
Do we use a 'continuum' (without ends) that has a section in it that female and male reside in?
Or do you believe that we are somewhere in the middle of their 'spectrum' (that has ends)?
I think we are only capable of change, even if we only do use the part that is considered to be a transition.
Bigenders define themselves in a way that is unique to them, just as we all do.

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 07, 2012, 09:37:47 AM
Being non-binary, one doesn't transition in the sense of binary transitions.
We can change, we can find things that make us more complete to ourselves, as individuals.

Put Perfick

I'd say that transition (either binary or non binary) changes only the way we present. A MtF who gets SRS and begins dressing and acting female isn't changing her gender, just the way it's shown to the world (and to herself).

Likewise if I, as a non-binary, were to "transition", it would simply change the way I show myself to the world. It would have no affect on my actual gender.

My posts have been struggling with this very thing. I do want to present as binary - I think the world does not sufficiently understand non-binary gender for me to be able to manage to look like anything but a freak for presenting as non-binary. I admire people at Susan's who have sufficiently thick skin not to care about what people think of them, but that's not for me.

So for me, the decision is which of the two binary genders would I be most comfortable presenting as.

I took the same approach as MiriaMx, and I'm sure others.  I purposely waited until hormones and electrolysis had gotten me to the point that I was passing probably about 50% of the time, and then slowly began adding in makeup and dressing differently.  During the in between period I was very androgynous, and basically wore jeans and tee shirts, and more "feminine" selections from the men's section.  This worked very well for me, and, at least in my case, helped to minimize the in-between period where there was no way I was going to pass.  Taking the gradual approach can also be a good way to feel your way through transitioning, and get a feeling for where you want to take it, and where you feel you can end up.  There are always facial surgeries, for the things that hormones cannot change - i.e., those that are the result of the underlying bone structure.  But, I believe that everyone is different, and everyone's transition is different. There aren't any right answers, and it's really a matter of finding what is right for you. 

Quote from: Erica on August 07, 2012, 01:45:08 PM
  Taking the gradual approach can also be a good way to feel your way through transitioning, and get a feeling for where you want to take it, and where you feel you can end up. But, I believe that everyone is different, and everyone's transition is different. There aren't any right answers, and it's really a matter of finding what is right for you. 

Sorry for dissecting your post, but essentially, this I think would be typical of non-binary people.
It's not destination driven. Yet, it is a drive to become who you are.
It really is a matter of what is right for you, to find who you are.


Ativan

I will still be male, I will still be female. Just finding my own individual center place

Ativan, you always make me smile.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 07, 2012, 02:20:38 PM
It's not destination driven. Yet, it is a drive to become who you are.
It really is a matter of what is right for you, to find who you are.

Definitely.  That's really what I was hoping to convey. 

even if i fulled transitioned from male to female  and passed and ended up looking  like a tottaly gorgeous girl , id still view myself as a third gender/ not really male or female

Quote from: Padma on August 07, 2012, 01:18:07 AM
...to wherever they have least/no dysphoria, I guess.

i was more bigender in my teens but now my identity has shifted much further over to the feminine realm and stayed there ,

If you are transitioning from rather than to, it is up to you how you interpret your own appearance I guess.
If you are bi-gender or androgyne you could wear a man's suit, for example, and be either  profoundly male, butch female, crossdressing woman, or androgyne feeling male, and probably a lot besides.
We talked around this and related ares last night at my support group, and really didn't come up with any single answer, which is not surprising really given there were 6 of us all with slightly different starting points.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 07, 2012, 09:37:47 AM

Transsexuals have described their transitions as changing from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

That's EXACTLY how i feel...

I'm on estrogen to be able to appear more feminine... be more feminine. In the future I intend to look more androgynous. But who knows, I could easily decide to just go all the way.

Quote from: Padma on August 04, 2012, 12:54:24 AM
I'm finding my present fluidity of self (and gender) pretty disconcerting in a way, but at  same time just spot on. Even though I'm going through an MTF transition, the woman I am wants to be masculine. And why not.

I get this. I've been thinking about it since I first read your post.
Although I don't think of myself as going through a MTF transition, I am changing from the HRT that I'm doing.
It's a part of the change that I want for myself.
It's kind of weirding me out that as the HRT is 'activating' (I Robot, lol) the female in me, 'she' seems to want to be more masculine than I had thought would want to be. At first, I just thought of it as the male side of me fighting back, despite myself's intentions.
But that statement strikes a cord of recognition that I wasn't ready for, or hadn't anticipated.
What a long strange trip it's been. I like it.

Ativan

Aye - I'm beginning to suspect that masculinity in me just didn't want to express itself while I was stuck looking like a man, but now that I'm feminising, I'm more free to be strong.

It's funny, I feel torn between labelling myself androgynous and labelling myself a tomboy woman, and then I keep stepping back and reminding myself that both ways it's just labels of convention, so I'm better off being uncomfortably unlabelled and just seeing what my experience is and how it changes.

Quote from: Jamie D on August 07, 2012, 01:13:20 AM
What does one transition TO, if they are bi-gendered?

Perhaps simply the same place as one does if they aren't bi-gendered. A state of being whereby one finds one's equilibrium.

Years ago i wrestled with sexual terminology
heterosexual, homosexual,trans sexual, bi sexual ect and none of them seemed to fit so i came to the conclusion that i was just  uniquely sexual.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 13, 2012, 09:06:00 PM
I get this. I've been thinking about it since I first read your post.
Although I don't think of myself as going through a MTF transition, I am changing from the HRT that I'm doing.
It's a part of the change that I want for myself.
It's kind of weirding me out that as the HRT is 'activating' (I Robot, lol) the female in me, 'she' seems to want to be more masculine than I had thought would want to be. At first, I just thought of it as the male side of me fighting back, despite myself's intentions.
But that statement strikes a cord of recognition that I wasn't ready for, or hadn't anticipated.
What a long strange trip it's been. I like it.

Ativan

Interesting post, as some 'masculine centers"in the brain need the extra estrogen or porduce their own estrogen to function 100%

I was always very assertive and independent, and when I started on E I thought I will be more feminine, but for me, as far as this "masculinity issue, well no change so far. I remain an assertive opinionated bitch!  :laugh:

Quote from: peky on August 14, 2012, 07:27:45 AM
Interesting post, as some 'masculine centers"in the brain need the extra estrogen or porduce their own estrogen to function 100%

I was always very assertive and independent, and when I started on E I thought I will be more feminine, but for me, as far as this "masculinity issue, well no change so far. I remain an assertive opinionated bitch!  :laugh:

I get that.
After more than a year on Spiro, I thought the effects of it on the T would have cancelled that out. Hah! Maybe I have remained the same as I always am, too.
Time will tell. The assertive opinionated bitch in me usually won out anyways and still does. Perhaps it isn't a function of hormones at all, but just attitude.
Which I can appreciate.  :laugh:

Ativan

I don't understand. Almost all the females I've known are assertive or aggressive. Why did you think that would change? Why is that being called masculine? ???

Just making fun of that traditional association.  :laugh:

Ativan

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 07, 2012, 12:14:51 AM
The English language needs this so very badly. It makes me want to throw things when people argue it is grammatically incorrect. Addison, Austen, Chesterfield, Fielding, Ruskin, Scott, and the Bard himself, William Shakespeare, used it as a gender neutral singular. If that isn't good enough for anybody, they can go soak their head.

Awesome!  ;D

Quote from: agfrommd on August 07, 2012, 01:33:49 PM
I'd say that transition (either binary or non binary) changes only the way we present. A MtF who gets SRS and begins dressing and acting female isn't changing her gender, just the way it's shown to the world (and to herself).

Likewise if I, as a non-binary, were to "transition", it would simply change the way I show myself to the world. It would have no affect on my actual gender.

My posts have been struggling with this very thing. I do want to present as binary - I think the world does not sufficiently understand non-binary gender for me to be able to manage to look like anything but a freak for presenting as non-binary. I admire people at Susan's who have sufficiently thick skin not to care about what people think of them, but that's not for me.

So for me, the decision is which of the two binary genders would I be most comfortable presenting as.

Here here! The other day at our transmasculine support group, the guy who led the group said he would always identify as a transman (not as a man). I think the way he was describing it, he does not feel that he would ever want to leave off the female side of himself. Perhaps this is more bigender. But for myself, I am dysphoric re: female anatomy and presentation. I doubt that's going to change.


--Jay Jay

I've seen a few people say that want to transition from one sex to the other but then come back to the middle and the more I think about that, the more it appeals to me for me.

Quote from: stb820 on September 13, 2012, 04:16:19 PM
I've seen a few people say that want to transition from one sex to the other but then come back to the middle and the more I think about that, the more it appeals to me for me.

Yeah for me too. I'm not so sure yet and am not in a hurry.
I feel like I want to be in a hurry but my reasoning says to take my time.

--Jay Jay

Everyone else has already made some great points here. I personally feel like it's not necessarily transition, it's just what makes you comfortable. It appears that the changes you've made so far have made you far more comfortable in your life. Maybe that's all you needed? Or perhaps, you will push more towards the feminine and find it even more comfortable and want to continue exploring that. What might also happen is that you find it doesn't make you more comfortable, so you step it back again to what you are comfortable with.

From what I can tell, everyone is on a very individualized journey. Even though it seems a lot of people do transition (and you don't hear so much about those that detransition or stop) it seems the main reason why they do is to present to the world as the gender they know they are. Just from my observations there seems to be individual "tipping points" for people where they will try something and discover that it's not enough. Like presenting androgynous. Some may find that very comfortable and it works. But if they really feel their gender is female and society keeps gendering them as male, that might start to become a problem.

While I have been doing what many would call transition over the past nine months, I rarely ever use that word when telling people about what's going on. I am not changing genders, I am simply taking off and discarding masks that others wanted me to wear during my life. I present via clothing and accessories in a way that expresses who I am inside. Often, much of my presentation is feminine leaning, but not 100%. My path might eventually include HRT, however I still feel myself to be occupying my own unique space on a decidedly non binary gender continuum.

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on September 15, 2012, 05:53:26 PM
I am not changing genders, I am simply taking off and discarding masks that others wanted me to wear during my life.

This is what happens. This is how we transition.
Thanks Z!

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 15, 2012, 08:37:10 PM

Quote from: Zythyra on September 15, 2012, 05:53:26 PM
I am not changing genders, I am simply taking off and discarding masks that others wanted me to wear during my life.

This is what happens. This is how we transition.
Thanks Z!

Ativan

So true!

Hey, does anyone want to buy some slightly used masks?  :laugh:

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on September 15, 2012, 10:04:39 PM
This is what happens. This is how we transition.
Thanks Z!

Ativan


So true!

Hey, does anyone want to buy some slightly used masks?  :laugh:

Z

Coming from a engineers perspective, I think of them as filters. Turn the "Man,Gay, Fem, filters off and a whole new world opens.

It does seem to me that binary genders are slowly getting washed away into a more global sense of humanity as a whole. Men really are starting to take on traditional female roles and vice versa.  I have always considered myself a conglomeration of everyone else. Maybe im just malleable.  I have always fit into any group, but never belonged. I do wonder if there are kindred spirits to me. It seems that the world likes everything to be binary, not just gender. Requires less thought as it allows for mental shortcuts. it does however feel like people are starting to be more aware that things are not so simple. This is not merely some stop during a transition, this is being fully human. In my mind, anyone that thinks about these things will realize that they too fit into this enveloping canopy of humanity

To think in terms of binary seems strange to me. I find myself to be in an area that I defined as between.
It's edges are just as grey as they are becoming to binary people, a wide thick line of grey.
Whether one wants to explore this middle ground or not, it is here.
There are many of us here, some live in that grey area, as defined by them.
Binary thinking, besides genders, is to black and white, on or off.
Nothing is ever that simple.
It is an imaginary concept used to define something as one or the other.
It's kind of like that glass half full/half empty thing. It's a concept.
Reality is, is that it is a glass with water in it, no more no less. It will never be exactly half.
Neither is binary this or that. Gender is an excellent example of biodiversity.
Just like a glass with water in it. You see it as you want to see it, define it as you want to.
You decide how much water is in it.
People are becoming more aware of themselves as self defining, not as society defines them.
The truth is that perception is everything. You are no more than that.
Yet, you are, because you can self define yourself.
Gender is like that, it's truth is in perception, and you get to define that, as you are.
*there's air in the glass, also*

Ativan

As a programmer, I once tried to stuff the logic of life into the logic of math. Science as a while is full of this backward thought.  In nature we often behave in mannersunexplainable in a mathematical sense.  We dont always act logically, our even always how are genetics dictate we should. Human actions always perplex me because I really do think in terms of binaries.  However, my own emotive expressions are often completely counter to my logical mind, and I am realizing that I, and everyone else exist in a space that differs from the apparent logical space we can measure. At least as far as emotions are concerned

It strikes me that for some people, instead of androgyny being a first step towards fully transitioning, fully transitioning is the last step towards androgyny, since androgyny's where their transition is leading them :).

There is a place between on and off. It is merely when both are at the same time.
Binary moves from zero to one. Therefore, there is something between them.
Emotions are like that, but more like the difference between -1 and 1.
The difference is only in what direction you are looking at it, the value is the same, yet different.
Emotions can be predicted by algorithm's, yet that is a prediction, it doesn't explain the emotion.
Emotions are the result of perceptions that we all share, but in different ways than anyone else.
Sometimes the perceptions line up and we have an agreement of reality.
But they don't always line up perfectly. I doubt they ever really do, they are just close enough.
Binary is hard to express because it has only two states.
Non-binary has any state that is in between, anywhere.
Yet our language reflects binary thinking, making an explanation of non-binary difficult.
Non-binary is in the agreement of perception, regardless if it is -1 or 1.
Or anything that could be in between. Lots of perceptions, lots of emotions.
Non-binary thinking allows for all the disagreements, acknowledges the agreements, and moves on.
To me, binary thinking only allows for an agreement or not, and moves on.
Emotion is in the disagreements of perception.
We could look at each other with the same love, yet it would not be in agreement because our perception is from different points of view.
We could be mad at each other the same way.
Description of our perceptions whether to others or to ourselves is never quantitative.
It's a round thing. It's a rock. It's a clump of minerals. Its...so many things, but it's still just a rock, a round thing.
Emotions and non-binary thinking are like that.

Ativan

Honestly, this whole between zero and one business sounds a lot like quibits in quantum field theory.  I'd rationalized them in my mind as the unmeasured state of binary reality.  the emotional state being "predictable" also sounds like a quibit. You can guess its state with a certain amount of likelihood, but sometimes something totally random seems to happen.  In quantum theory, there are really 2 realities, the quantum state in which matter behaves like waves, and the real state which can be measured and where matter behave like particles. Everything exists in this flux between the 2 states.  analogizing quantum theory with the state of androgyny is at least giving me an understandable concept to relate to.

I think the two perceived end-points, the 0 and 1 (or -1 and 1) are themselves just probability fields - there is no male or female singularity.

They are just points in a field of an unknown number of points that defines gender.
Feel free to put them together in any manner which suits you.
You can change the points, the entire structure you make in whatever time frame suits you, also.
If you feel the need to move some of them around, go ahead.
It's yours to play with, we each get our own set.
Your set is the same as everyone else's, it's up to you to find the points that fit together for you.
Your set just looks different than my set because you see it differently.

Brain-locked,
Ativan

Quote from: Padma on September 16, 2012, 06:21:24 PM
I think the two perceived end-points, the 0 and 1 (or -1 and 1) are themselves just probability fields - there is no male or female singularity.

Up next from the LHC, understanding the particle_wave duality of gender

Schrödinger's Gender.

If there is a cat in the box, is the Transwoman a lesbian?  :laugh:

Heisenberg shrugs his/her shoulders...

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
Heisenberg shrugs his/her shoulders...

Or did she?

It's hard to be certain...

Quote from: ashrock on September 16, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
As a programmer, I once tried to stuff the logic of life into the logic of math. Science as a while is full of this backward thought.  In nature we often behave in mannersunexplainable in a mathematical sense.  We dont always act logically, our even always how are genetics dictate we should. Human actions always perplex me because I really do think in terms of binaries.  However, my own emotive expressions are often completely counter to my logical mind, and I am realizing that I, and everyone else exist in a space that differs from the apparent logical space we can measure. At least as far as emotions are concerned

Good points.
I always thought life is more analog rather than digital.
Someone asked me the other day
"Do you feel male or female today?"
I had a hard time finding an answer.
I replied "A bit on the feminine side right now"

I feel i am always in some state of flux between the two. Rather than a switch i think of the new led keyboards. Any combination of three colors gives you 256 possible  choices.
With   masculine feminine and androgyn aspects of gender combined with thousands of life's divergent (and convergent and static) possibilities  the formula gets pretty complex. :)

It's all to do with the observer's perception.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paulusantonius.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2Fopticalillusion.jpg&hash=5cf12fea1d90c2ca689e17871e26c0dfc2fa7a7d)

@Joann:
My answer for what I feel like every day is "human".  Im not in touch with myself enough to provide a more definite answer.  I am living as a male but don't really relate at all.  I do relate to women, but only partially.  It's really lonely, not understanding yourself or anyone else...  My real question to you, is who do you feel like you are tomorrow? (worded with confusing tenses on purpose)  That is what I am trying to determine for myself.
@Felicitá:
Honestly, I wish it all that simple.  It could be that I have a small imagination, but I just cannot see things as I want to see them, not matter how hard I try.  Not every thing is fuzzy and visual trickery like that oft used image.  Some things are more apparent and agreed upon by others.  For example, I know you can see either woman in that image, but can you see a horse?  It is extremely unlikely for someone to have the perception that they see a horse, much less a group of people uninitiated to the extreme convincing that person would likely to have receive.   

"We use words to get beyond words, until we reach the pure wordless essence."

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 02:00:20 AM
Schrödinger's Gender.

Lmao
Your gender is in Schrodinger's closet...

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 09:10:48 AM
"We use words to get beyond words, until we reach the pure wordless essence."

Indeed,
An understanding and agreement of perspectives by dialogue.

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 17, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
Indeed,
An understanding and agreement of perspectives by dialogue.

Ativan

I do understand what you guys are saying, but again, there are things that I and others see that might not be able to change.  No matter what the perspective on it, some things will always remain something else.  What I am learning is that really the visual and physical existence of flaws within my own human form need not bother.  That I can see something besides what I want in the mirror and things are ok.  I dont need to make others see what I want either.  Now what I must do is focus on removing these behaviours and reactions that I have adapted to protect the fragile soul of my being and open myself up to the world.  I dont need to mimic physical reactions of others either.  I am not some actor, and must not live my life as such.  The hard thing to admit, in this moment of acceptance, is that if what is visible does not truly matter should I even try to change it?  When I look in the mirror sometimes, things just seem wrong...  Can one truly resign their physical form as inconsequential?  Especially difficult since society from the being has tried to convince us that it is of utmost importance.

Quote from: ashrock on September 17, 2012, 03:31:20 PM
Can one truly resign their physical form as inconsequential?

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2012%2F09%2F02%2Farticle-2197331-14C9FB6F000005DC-121_638x461.jpg&hash=cf7131bdf04c56d5290f05501923a9663d3bb1ad)

Just ask this man.

He's a world class runner. To see him without the blade and one wouldn't have pegged him for a world class runner. That said, he's a T42 Paralympian world class runner and not an able bodied one. (Though he'd certainly run faster than me, and he hasn't even got any legs).

All this would seem to suggest the body is not inconsequential and can be overcome, though not completely and utterly.

Quote from: ashrock on September 17, 2012, 03:31:20 PM
  That I can see something besides what I want in the mirror and things are ok.  I don't need to make others see what I want either. 

I'm struggling with this too. Who am i trying to please?
I look in the mirror and say "You are ok. Yes even damm good." But others look, listen ,sence "He/she is a queer".
I can spend a lot of time money, effort trying to please and conform to others desires whether cis or or trans.
Workouts, cologne,  jock sports, guns, red meat, body hair or
Makeup, fashionable clothes, jewelry, boobs, and other extreme bodily changes but for who?
Its easy to say "F.u. to all of them. Ill do and be who i want.." But its not that easy. We still want approval from our friends, family and peers.
Having a hard time finding words to describe this but i guess we just have to find the balance thats works for each of us.

"Is Androgyny just the first step to full transition?"

Well, for me it was, though only for a few weeks until I figured out what to do next...

Axélle

Abracadabra
Just when I thought that I had the whole androgyny forest as a great destination and a much better place to be my low dose hrt no longer seems able to help me stay safely and anonymously within the forest.
I dont understand this as when I started low dose hrt it quietened the demons almost immediately - there were minor but quite welcome physical changes together with quite major and extremely welcome emotional changes and none of my relationships (wife, family etc) were threatened in the slightest.
But now the drums are beating again and urging me onwards.  The GID seems to have come back in spite of the low dose hrt which had previously been enough to keep me in a good  place.   My endo is cool with this as he sees this as a journey where I am the navigator, or a book where I am a coauthor..
Did this happen to you or did you always feel that you were heading through the forest with an end in mind ?   I really would like to stay here and enjoy the best of both being m and being f but I can see that I need more E and I suspect that this will not keep me in the forest, it will set me on a path leading slowly but surely away from here.   Not sure I am ready for this - time for counselling

Also, don't do the feminine thing and try to feel your way through it.

Do the androgyne thing, stumble around and declare the stumbling around a plan once you actually find yourself somewhere.

Abacadabra/Pica

Really appreciate you sharing your experience and perspective.  I have learned to be a great male -  very analytic, very objective, quite phlegmatic and have tended to live in my head rather than in my heart or in my soul.   I think that 'stumbling' around the forest will be the best that I can do in the short term.   There is no way that I am feminine enough to 'feel my way' around - I don't yet trust my feelings and I am preoccupied in progressing  in a way that minimises hurt or embarrassment to others.   Being selfless in this case isn't really helping me attend to and to listen to my needs.

FFS made a real difference and the hrt is relentlessly opening me up to a new way of being ... like you I really was more comfortable believing that I was in control and that I could fix an endpoint ie sitting in the middle, a transition of sorts - real growth with limited fall out but I am beginning to
feel that I am deluding myself and that my inner self knows exactly what is going on and where we are headed.  It no longer feels that I can stop what I have started and while, like you, I have done more than my share of dangerous and risky things, further transitioning feels so right but also so scary

Thanks for listening

Helen

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 23, 2012, 08:15:06 AM
Once we start FEELING our way... we also start to KNOW more.
In my experience there was simply no way to say at the beginning this is where it will 'stop'. I actually actively refused to even get into the subject of it. I. e. it will stop... where it WILL stop.

Though in all honesty... we ACTUALLY do KNOW! We just refuse to acknowledge it, as it all seems so way out, so 'off-the-wall'. Like all things TS have that element to it.

Axélle,

I agree about knowing, but not being ready to acknowledge. A friend recently asked me about when I'd decided to transition again. I answered that, deep down, I always knew I would.

I still have no idea now how far I will go, as I allow myself to settle in and feel the effects of each step, the next step becomes more apparent.

Z

It's sounding like this thread is going in that direction of misleading definitions.

You can indeed go through an androgynous stage that leads you to full transition as a transsexual.
You can indeed be Androgyn and go through a transition that is full in expression.

But they are two different things.
The distinction may seem like too fine a line, but it is not.
It's not a grey area. You may discover that you are one or the other, Androgyne or Transsexual.
This happens all the time. We wonder about it, at times as individuals, who we are.
And why not? We are Transgender, it covers a lot of ground when it comes to expression of gender.
Trans, the word itself, is about moving through that expression, but it is also about just having an expression.
Gender can be a binary, defined as Male or Female. A distinction of qualities.
Gender can be non-binary, defined as qualities that may or may not include those of binary, a different distinction of qualities.

It is a mistake to view Androgyn as simply being a part of expression.
Expression and gender are two different things, regardless of the way they go hand in hand with each other.
Expression is not a linear thing, a line that is traveled from one point to another.
Transsexual can be a change in expression, of one binary to the other, to adjust ones expression to their gender.
With many places to pause in between, if one desires or circumstances dictate that it happens that way.
Androgyn is the same, in expression, but the difference is that Androgyn is non-binary, regardless of expression.

One does not simply change from Transsexual to Androgyn and back to Transsexual.
One does not simply change from Androgyn to Transsexual or vice versa.
But one can discover, whether simply or not, that they are one or the other.

Androgyny is a part of being an Androgyn. It is not a stepping stone to change your gender.
Androgynous is a stepping stone for many in expression of gender.

Androgynous is a part of being Transgender, it is something we have in common.
It's something that we can share in a positive way to understanding the differences and similarities of binary and non-binary.

It may seem like a small point to some of us, but to those who are newly discovering or even admitting their own gender,
interchanging or blurring the definitions becomes a much bigger point.

It is confusing when the differences are defined in blurred or interchangeable ways.
It does make discovering who you are, your gender, difficult.
For those who are making these discoveries, good for you!
Sometimes I think that is the biggest accomplishment of all. Just knowing who you are.
Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 24, 2012, 10:30:46 AM
You can indeed go through an androgynous stage that leads you to full transition as a transsexual.
You can indeed be Androgyn and go through a transition that is full in expression.

But they are two different things.
The distinction may seem like too fine a line, but it is not.
It's not a grey area. You may discover that you are one or the other, Androgyne or Transsexual.

I think it's also possible to be both Androgyne and Transsexual simultaneously, they aren't mutually exclusive. Not all TS are binary, there seem to be a growing number of people here who are both/neither.

Quote
Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".

Exactly where I am at this point. After many years of knowing and honoring who I am, but not expressing it outwardly via clothing, name, I'm now living openly as Z. Some might call this "transition" or "full time", I prefer to think of it as simply living in full truth of who I am. I have no end goal, other than perhaps achieving happiness. If during this process I decide to medically transition, I don't see that as changing my feeling of being outside binary gender. Of course, the only thing constant in my life is change... so don't quote me on this  ;D

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on September 24, 2012, 12:18:04 PM
I think it's also possible to be both Androgyne and Transsexual simultaneously, they aren't mutually exclusive. Not all TS are binary, there seem to be a growing number of people here who are both/neither.

They seem to be growing the ranks of non-binary. I think there is a distinction, between binary and non-binary.
But I am also finding that distinction to be closer to each other than in the past.
You can fully transition to a binary expression of male or female via all the means possible and still be non-binary.
But that distinction of those individuals is completely up to them. It is their own view of who they are that is their own.
The idea of being able to interchange the two seems to be more like a fluidity in gender that is a part of being non-binary.
It would be a point of discussion, as I have a lot of difficulty in defining binary to myself.
Sometimes I feel like I understand, but just as I do, it seems to slip away.
There would have to be a line that each side defines one or the other, and I don't like that idea.
It goes against the way I think, so defining becomes fuzzy.
My opinions seem to be changing, which is always a good thing, as nothing ever really stays the same.

Ativan

To go back to the original question.

Is Androgyny just the first step to full transition?

No it's not. But it can be.

Quote from: Zythyra on September 24, 2012, 12:18:04 PM
Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".
Exactly where I am at this point. After many years of knowing and honoring who I am, but not expressing it outwardly via clothing, name, I'm now living openly as Z. Some might call this "transition" or "full time", I prefer to think of it as simply living in full truth of who I am. I have no end goal, other than perhaps achieving happiness. If during this process I decide to medically transition, I don't see that as changing my feeling of being outside binary gender. Of course, the only thing constant in my life is change... so don't quote me on this  ;D

Zythyra

I can understand how you feel. I have worn much clothing that doesn't suit who I am and shows nothing about my sex/gender. Once I can feel comfortable in my own skin, I will be able to explore my style and my expression!

but what is a "full transition"?
is it changing your sex from one to the other? or is it become 100% yourself in body as well as in mind?

and why do we even use the word "transition"?
it makes me feel like becoming something one was originally not. but if i am simply me, and then change into someone who is still me... how can that be called a transition?

anyway... if we define "full transition" as something like "changing the body so it reflects one's inner self" (since that's what i see many girls, guys, and androgynes here do, or at least try to do. i may be wrong though, since people's perceptions of the same thing is so often not the same). well, then the original question would become logically impossible.
androgyny isn't a look, it's being androgyne. you could say that androgyny relates to androgyne the same way as transsexuality relates to transsexual. and i wouldn't really want to say that being a different gender is a first step on the way to getting a body that is unfit for this different gender, though suitable for the gender that the person in transition is before and after transitioning but unfortunately not in the beginning of the process. (if you got confused by this, then that would illustrate how illogical the way of thinking that the question would imply seems for me)

androgyne is a gender, one type of an inner self (kinda vast though, and poorly defined) just the same as man and woman. if we for simplicity say that androgynes generally want an androgynous looking body, then wouldn't a full transition for an androgyne be quite different from what it is for a transsexual? though i do understand that a transexual might want to try the androgynous look and explore androgyny when they start transitioning. i also think this might be a good thing, trying to get to know oneself better without rushing too much

i hope someone got at least half of what i was trying to write...

We speak of aligning one's body to their gender as transition.
For non-binaries, this is none to a lot. It varies.
So, it's not defined very well.
Androgyn's are defined in a vast way, but I wouldn't say poorly.
If a cis male or female is scrutinized as much, the definition would be vast in it's own way.
Transition in the context of this thread is full transition from either MTF or FTM.
The question was asking if one's gender could be Androgyn in the process.
The answer is no.
But a person who assumes they are Androgyn, might discover that they are indeed Transsexual.
So then the answer would be yes.
You are also very correct that peoples perception of the same thing is so often not the same.
The trouble starts with the language. It's binary.
It's kind of like asking to describe Quantum Physics using only the language of Cosmology.
Perception is key to agreement in what is. But people also have a knack for interpretation.
Which is key to being able to describe something well enough for the other person to grasp the concept.
Being non-binary or Androgyn is often talked about in a conceptual way.
Perceptions are often not the same. But that doesn't necessarily disqualify them.
It is just another way of describing something. It could be wrong, sure. It could also be right.
Depends on who you talk to.
For some binaries, the concept of androgyn is something in between male and female.
For us, it's not.
For me, Binary Genders are just a part of any number of descriptions of gender.

I understood every word you wrote. :)

Ativan

thanks ati, you always seem able to sort my thoughts out

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 05, 2012, 07:58:35 PM
Transition in the context of this thread is full transition from either MTF or FTM.
The question was asking if one's gender could be Androgyn in the process.
The answer is no.
But a person who assumes they are Androgyn, might discover that they are indeed Transsexual.
So then the answer would be yes.

that's very good answer to the question

but i still think we need to work a little more on the definition of this "transition" thing. this thread assumes that "full transition" is that full transition from ftm or mtf, but wouldn't it be something different for androgynes?
it just doesn't seem right in my mind that an androgyne does a partial transition, but ends up with a body that feels right for them and makes them feel complete (assuming this is medically possible, ofc. in many cases it probably isn't)

I'm not sure how much more "full" my transition could get exactly even in the binary concept - I'm on HRT, I've done FFS and SRS, electrolysis, laser, changed my name, changed all my gender/sex markers... I'm still non-binary. And I've met at least two other people who have altered their bodies and legal status as much as me who are non-binary.

"Full transition" is an obnoxious concept even for binary folks. There are lots of woman- or man-identifying trans folks who don't undergo SRS. That doesn't make their transition less full or their binary identities less valid.

To me, transition is the process of moving from an uncomfortable place to a comfortable place. Binary or non-binary, whatever is right for you is full.

I agree with Sarah. I am moving towards full medical transition (though how full-- never lower I am pretty sure). Anyway, feel I will be more comfortable with a male presentation and a more male body but I don't think I would ever identify completely in a binary way. I feel my mind is both, and, and also too. :)

--Jay J

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 06, 2012, 03:43:15 PM
"Full transition" is an obnoxious concept even for binary folks. There are lots of woman- or man-identifying trans folks who don't undergo SRS. That doesn't make their transition less full or their binary identities less valid.

To me, transition is the process of moving from an uncomfortable place to a comfortable place. Binary or non-binary, whatever is right for you is full.

This is the greater truth about transitioning. Especially from this non-binary's point of view.
It was not that long ago, that there was a lot of infighting in and between groups about this.
I'm glad that it has settled down to being able to discuss it openly within this group.
(I don't know about the others, I stopped visiting them quite a while back.)
It's nice to hear all the chatter about transitioning and HRT in this section.

What's right, is whatever is right for you.
It's your body, it's your decision, it's your right.

Ativan

it might just be that i don't like how the word transition is used about changing one's body so it fits better.
i'd much rather undergo an artificial metamorphosis if i decide to change my appearance

Quote from: Taka on October 06, 2012, 05:18:52 PM
it might just be that i don't like how the word transition is used about changing one's body so it fits better.
i'd much rather undergo an artificial metamorphosis if i decide to change my appearance

It could be as simple as changing your hairstyle, shaping your eyebrows, toning, building or lessening different muscle groups.
This is also used as expression, but that is a part of it.
More so than wearing different clothing. Which is just expression.
Where does makeup come into play in this?

It could be by surgery. This is the part where the term full transition comes into play.
Some consider it only when you have SRS. But many are now accepting that full transition can be without it.
Is the glass full when the water is an inch from the top? or does it have to be to the very top?

Hormones could be seen as an artificial metamorphosis.
I naturally produce more T than E, but by using Spiro, I bring the effectiveness of it down to within the range of a female.
I also boost my estrogen with a patch.
I don't think it is quite within the normal female range, I will see my Dr next week. We have some decisions to make, maybe.

All of this could be viewed as artificial, although I don't myself.
I don't think taking my antidepressant is an artificial happiness, either.

All of this could be viewed as artificial metamorphosis. Is it like a caterpillar to a butterfly? Not really, but I suppose if you hid away, and then revealed yourself one day, sure it could.

What do you mean by artificial metamorphosis?

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in. ;)
Ativan

  I've been thinking a lot lately about the idea of what transition will really mean for me.  Personally I'm happy to land wherever this road takes me.  The problem I'm running into is that just broaching the subject of transition with people makes them assume/demand a polar definition or make up their own minds about what it means (generally some ugly, sinister or sexually unpalatable vision).  I might do a little and have no one know I'd changed on the inside or that little bit might be enough to completely change their view of me.  Inevitably a large number of people, due to their ignorance of the subject, are just going to assume it's an all-or-nothing proposition.  Just to make clear I don't personally feel androgyne but I doubt my transition will be entirely polar either.

  I recently informed my employer that I'm beginning the process and that it is still being defined.  I had to very carefully imply that they needed to be prepared for a full-out, on-the-job transition to female even though it may never come to that.  This made it all the more uncomfortable a situation and felt like writing a doomsday prophesy.  If along the way I found a comfortable middle-ground or something were to happen that would prevent me from continuing the process they still have to be prepared to protect my privacy because of the way my co-workers might respond with 'crazy ->-bleeped-<- visions'.  I'm steeling myself for the inevitable questions I'm going to face from people about whether I've had SRS even though this may never be an option I feel I need in order to achieve my goal.  I'm also wondering if they are going to be more uncomfortable with the idea of a girl with a penis or a girl with a vagina even though it's none of their business.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 06, 2012, 06:31:00 PM
If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transmission, so I could pick the gear I want to be in. ;)

Hmmmm, I suppose "Reverse" could be useful at times ;)

If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in. ;)
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 06, 2012, 08:35:55 PM
If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in. ;)
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

Interesting concept.  What is that, a TransAM? ;)

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 06, 2012, 08:35:55 PM
If I was a car, I would want to be one with a 5spd transition, so I could pick the gear I want to be in. ;)
Ativan
Reverse could still come in handy...

oh, i'd want that too. as long as it's a car i can change direction as well as speed, so it would work really well

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on October 06, 2012, 06:31:00 PM
What do you mean by artificial metamorphosis?

i probably mean changing into what i'm supposed to be by artificial means since nature got it wrong by some mishap
the result wouldn't be artificial, just that the process would be done with medicaments or surgery since nature didn't give me the means to change my body on my own

Quote from: Taka on October 07, 2012, 07:09:53 AM
oh, i'd want that too. as long as it's a car i can change direction as well as speed, so it would work really well
i probably mean changing into what i'm supposed to be by artificial means since nature got it wrong by some mishap
the result wouldn't be artificial, just that the process would be done with medicaments or surgery since nature didn't give me the means to change my body on my own

I'd be an Autobot then.  Anyone remember the "Triple-changers"?  That should suffice.  (Damn, still a geek in every mode :embarrassed:)

When you say "non binary"  are you referring to just your appearance or people's assumptions as to. your gender or that you are perhaps appearing as one sex but feeling the other (or both) or.....   

Quote from: lavistaa on January 04, 2013, 05:25:19 PM
When you say "non binary"  are you referring to just your appearance or people's assumptions as to. your gender or that you are perhaps appearing as one sex but feeling the other (or both) or.....   

That over complicates the term. Male is binary, female is binary.
Non-binary is just a way of saying that you are not one of those genders.
You are a part of another set of genders, the number of which is not defined (as it shouldn't be).
Cis people are generally binary in gender. Transsexuals are generally binary in gender, also.
This section of the forum uses the term Androgyn the same as non-binary, and covers the genders that aren't binary.
Which there are far to many opinions and terms and designations and whatnotever's to list them all.
I use non-binary, as I am not binary in gender.
I will use Androgyn around here at times, if it falls into the context of what is being discussed.
Non-Binary is anyone who is not binary, genderwise. But like so many things, the lines are blurred.

One thing that I don't like is the idea that non-binary is in between the genders of male and female.
It's not.
Non-binary is a general term used to describe the other genders.
There isn't an in between.
You can put them in any order that pleases you.
You can change that order for any number of reasons.
Someone around here recently made the comment that it's not the middle of the road, it's another road.

That being said, there are the roads that define the two binary genders for a majority of people.
Then there is the multi-laned Super Highway of non-binary genders. Or a bunch of other roads.
(I just wanted to call it a Super Highway  ;))
The road analogy is a good one, as roads have a way of changing directions.
Destinations aren't always limited to just one road.
Lots of intersections out there.
And of course there is always the crossroad, where you can make a deal with the devil if you really want to play the blues.
Which may or may not have anything to do with genders.
Rambling again...
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on January 04, 2013, 07:32:23 PM
One thing that I don't like is the idea that non-binary is in between the genders of male and female.
It's not.

I don't like that idea either. I prefer to describe myself as non-binary. Currently I am somewhat suspicious towards the term Androgyne, since so many seem to define Androgyne as "between genders" or "male and female". I am quite certainly both feminine and masculine, but not female and male.

Speaking of the topic itself, for me, this could be a stepping stone towards being FtM - I could be more comfortable expressing femininity, then. I have a strong dislike for being misplaced as a female for my whole life, but I'm not yet sure how much better the male assumption would make me feel, at least when a honeymoon phase faded off.

I don't like it that most things in clothing and appearance are somewhat gendered, and that acting feminine while being in a female body obviously screams female to people. It makes me feel invisible. Taken as an effeminate male would be a truer place for me, if it became clear at some point that for others, I really can't exist outside the binary. I'd like to look non-binary since I feel a strong need to match my outside with my inside, but I'm still not sure if that's possible in this society.

But definitely, Androgyny isn't just the first step, though an androgynous appearance may be a way to ease things out. For me, "a full transition" isn't about going from one side of this supposed binary to the other. For me, "a full transition" would mean being taken as non-binary. In a way, I could even regard transitioning to male just as one step before being able to transition fully into non-binary.

It seems that the term 'full transition' is qualifying a person getting to where they want to be both physically & mentally.
It makes more sense than just confining it to Transsexuals, both pre and post op.
It opens up a better dialogue within the Transgender community.
A better understanding, a better point of view.
Maybe this is a something that will help to more unify everyone.
It would be nice if the walls of separatism went away.
And that does seem to be slowly happening, at least from my vantage point of view.
It would be nice if Transgenders could have a more unified voice in the fight for our equal rights.
We all want the same thing. Recognition of who we are, by our own definitions.
Regardless of what those definitions are. We have that same right, to define ourselves, without prejudice.
Ativan

Newbies, look at the rich heritage of the forest... senior members, there is so much value in this place.

Love to all, I am still not on forum.  Overdose is no joke.

Blessings

Satinjoy

Just responding to the thread title question - it was for me but it isn't for everyone. Also, I would gladly go back to simple androgyny at least sometimes if I had a way to negotiate the social terms and be male most of the time and non-binary part of the time.

If I could remake reality I would give us all a lot more words and shades of grey.

It is for some people. But just like bi-now-gay-later isn't true, and is hurtful to bisexual people.

Being androgynous is only a step for some people. I identify as a girl but I don't have that much dysphoria which is why I spent a lot of time identifying as genderqueer.
I did... I learned that I just want to be more feminine and I want to be a woman. And that I wanted to be androgynous because it seemed easier. Because I was scared of identifying as a woman.
I was... I was scared I would never be a cute girl like I wanted to.

So for me it's kind of both. I'm still a little gender confused. And sometimes I'm still scared. I feel like I want to giggle at the idea of asking someone to call me a she.
Sometimes it feels less scary to go back to just identifying as genderqueer. But I am a girl. And being a girl makes me so happy. I'm both genderqueer and a girl. I think I can be both.

But that's not how it is for everyone. For some people, they will always want to be androgynous. And I think that's wonderful!

Quote from: Felix on September 24, 2014, 06:29:59 PM
Just responding to the thread title question - it was for me but it isn't for everyone.

The title question makes it appear that poster want to dicuss androgyny in general, but upon reading the OP I realized s/he was simply attempting to understand a personal situation. Of course, the way forums work, it immediately became a discussion of the general sort suggested by the title.

One of the most common human mental traits is the tendancy to want to believe most everyone is like oneself. I've been reading forums like this for a couple of decades now and I'm forever running across people who want to believe that androgyny and crossdressing are simply unfulfilled stepping stones to full transsexuality. The reality of things, though, is that there are many different ways of being. Just as bisexuality is not a stepping stone to homosexuality, androgyny isn't necissarily a step toward trassexuality. That's not to say some TS people don't make such a step, but everyone takes a different journey and there's no one-size fits all way to go. We all have to draw our own road map for this stuff.

It also went the way of drifting into various things, some were quite humorous, typical for this section a couple years ago.
But it did manage to return to a version of the title even after drifting, it was a good thread.
I read it again from a perspective two years later in the making and realize how much the dialogue has changed.
I see a lot of people who have gone through transformations, transitions, and changes in perspectives.

It is very true that some people are directly on a non-binary path, only to discover a path that is binary and suites them better.
And the opposite is true as well.
But in the sense of it being a stepping stone, not really, they discovered themselves while stepping through, but they probably would have regardless.
For many in binary transition, androgynous would be more accurate, as that is a presentation.
But sure, it is a matter of where you have discovered yourself to be on your journey.
There are no rules that say you cannot be androgyne or non-binary and then discover that you have moved on to binary, or the other way around.
We've seen this many times over the last two years since this thread was started.
If a persons understanding of themselves is as such, it is true to them and in respect for them, it is true to me as well.
Our paths are our truths for each of us, regardless of where they take us.

For me, it is also a reminder how many of us have refined these perspectives, have discussed and answered a lot of what was unknowns.
It was a very good thread.
I still like the reference to Schrodinger's gender...
Ativan

Just taking up this empty space here for now...

Now, let's come back to this a year or two later, maybe I will have my personal answer to this. Or maybe not. "Maybe" - the key to endless possibilities :).

 :)

I identified as androgyne, in between, neither, binary gender, etc., for almost 20 years.

About two years ago, I started HRT, and since then have taken various steps which resulted in my now being legally female and living in the world as a woman. Which feels truly great! I remember my tipping point well. I was already living/working openly as Zythyra, very androgynous presentation, and still couldn't make up my mind about whether to start HRT. My therapist asked, "so you're OK with being seen as an androgynous male?" I burst into tears, knowing full well that I wasn't happy being perceived or referred to as male.

While my outward appearance has changed considerably since that time, I still feel myself to be other than binary gender. I don't identify as any particular label or term. I am simply me, Shana. While my life has had quite a lot of challenges over this journey of the past few years, I am truly happy to be who I am.

I continue to work towards a world in which any person is free to be, and express, whatever gender feels right to them!

Shana

To answer the question, androgyny could be the first step for some who intend to transition from one binary to another, however androgyny often times has more to do with certain individual's born looks, preferred outward presentation or both. To assume that it leads to full transition is like arguing about whether or not marijuana is a gateway drug for everyone who uses it. Some can smoke marijuana and never become a drug addict, some can consume alcohol and never become an alcoholic, therefore some can live androgynously and never be driven to transition fully to either gender.

[There are no rules that say you cannot be androgyne or non-binary and then discover that you have moved on to binary, or the other way around.
We've seen this many times over the last two years since this thread was started.
If a persons understanding of themselves is as such, it is true to them and in respect for them, it is true to me as well.
Our paths are our truths for each of us, regardless of where they take us.

For me, it is also a reminder how many of us have refined these perspectives, have discussed and answered a lot of what was unknowns.
It was a very good thread.
I still like the reference to Schrodinger's gender...
Ativan]
A great thought and one which I share
Aisla

It doesn't have to be, though it is for some people. For me, slightly androgynous guy is the only look I feel comfortable with, I've tried pushing my comfort zone, and it can only go so far. What I'll publicly feel comfortable wearing seems to have to be both something some binary guy would wear, even if this guy was gay, and also something similar to something a woman would wear...guy's skinny jeans, sneakers, and T-shirt seem to work the best, although weather and other issues sometimes force me to deviate from this, I hate business casual as it is so binary, and anything more formal I hate even more as it is even more...

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on October 05, 2014, 11:59:38 PM
I hate business casual as it is so binary, and anything more formal I hate even more as it is even more...

Ditto!

Quote from: EchelonHunt on October 06, 2014, 12:05:26 AM
Ditto!

Same for me

Increasingly I am favouring dress shirts in nice patterns and fabrics unbuttoned over an appropriate fancy T-shirt.  It is Andro enough to keep me happy, counts as business casual, and the lines of it let me hide my chest bumps quite nicely.  You can find male models dressed like that and modify it to taste.  I find just having airy layers and extra accessories makes me happier.  That and a shirt that has a nicer than average fabric to it.

Polo shirts which I used to like are no good for me now.  Weird that they flat display the boobs in a way that a near identical t-shirt doesn't...

I just need to try not to reach the gay pirate level of jewellery that I prefer when I am not at a renaissance festival...  lol

Formal, maybe a Kilt?  I can claim Scottish legitimately, so maybe I should...  Traditional Scottish dress also doesn't preclude long hair...  :) 

For formal there are also the various metro-male options, it is just the traditional stuff that is near impossible.  some of the formal fashion plate stuff looks better than traditional formal, and gives the social cover of being better dressed than anyone likely to give you crap. 

I just need to drop 30lbs before I drop coin on the clothes I want...

But goodwill can be great for dress shirts.  Selection is completely random, and 15-45$ shirts for 5-10$.


- Jaded (Starting to like fashion for the first time in the history of ever...) Jade