I've been troubled of late by those who insist that ours is a Christian nation. It is a matter of historical record which shows that our founding fathers were not alligned with "the Christian church" when putting together our government.
Tonight I was doing some reading on this subject and came across the following article. It is a real treat to read something with "just the facts" and little of the writer's opinion.
http://www.yosemitedems.net/FFathers.html (http://www.yosemitedems.net/FFathers.html)
Check it out if you're looking for quotable quotes on this subject.
Cindi
Start with My letter to the IRS Commissioner (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,10528.0.html) from back in 2004, then move on to Joan Bokaer's excellent Theocracy Watch (http://www.theocracywatch.org/) web site, and last but most certainly not the least is an article published by the Nation magazine on Our godless constitution (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen). If you need more let me know. :)
The people who think this is a Christian nation are what's known as Christian reconstructionists.
Joan Bokaer speaking on "Are We Becoming a Theocracy?"
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-6082626617349511699
Life and Liberty for All Who Believe
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=4716092367662227177
Joan Bokaer speaking on "The Rise of Dominionism"
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-5388450360562655999
Can you tell this is a subject I have some very strong opinions on? These people are not Christians, they are "christians" or so called christians...
I'm thinking of becoming overtly politically active again. I need to do something in my community.
Hmmmmm.
Cindi
Need any tips just ask me or Togetherwecan..... :P
I wish someone would simply explain to all of us - how or why a man - a "prophet" - - someone supposedly "like" Jesus himself - obviously well-noted for advocating, and most certainly possessing all of the deepest qualities of unconditional love, acceptance, sacrifice, generosity, and forgiveness - to the utmost extent possible of any human being ever - right ? -
I would wish to suppose that this then would be the ideal(?) example that (all) of his followers ideally would, and therefore logically should, wish to follow with all of their hearts and minds - right ?
i mean, provided that anyone that believes in this man, i should think actually respects such positive messages as he was undoubtedly sent to deliver ?
How could such a person ever have sanctioned any sort of thing as the vitriolic hatred and total lack of acceptance or discrimination and prejudice of every kind that has occurred between peoples of any kind for centuries on top of centuries - and even to go so far as to establish a justification for the minimization of, and the general abuse and disrespect of say, women (and children) in general for example ?
How can this (could this have) ever been justified by this person, or any other such so called "standard", or living embodiment of God's all encompassing love, no matter what race or culture or set of wise men or prophets (take your pick - Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus, others, etc...) that you like - ?
Would he ? - well - would he ? cmon - They'd all just stand by and cheer on someone that is beating (or stoning) any other person just for being different than himself ? - Yeah - he or she would be a "good" Chrisitan - Sure he would - he'd look right at you and say "i hate your guts, you little sinning pervert - and for that, i'm gonna stomp your ass into the pavement"...... "oh, and youre not forgiven either" - almost forgot to mention that part before i decided to speak for good ol' Jesus himself and kill, rape, maim, or discriminate against or disrespect you as i deem necessary to prove my superiority and rightful "Chrisitan" dominion... You know - WWJD an all that stuff - right ? ....
Someone out there please tell me how "he" would just stand by and idly watch, or even better yet, encourage the beating of ANY person, much less any form of TG one.... Awwwww - cmon - i know there has just got to be someone out there willing to step up to the plate - speak up - How does that work, exactly ?
- how dare they distort the truths of love and acceptance he tried to give to all of us, and then have the sheer audacity to call themselves "Christians", and their "religion" "Christianity"... the love of all of the prophets has been so twisted for gain, for power over others, and for corrupt agenda that has nothing to do with truly loving thy fellow man in truth...
I think that this and other religions and cults in general, have given many people the ability to amass such political power, influence, and the sick justification for somehow presupposing the necessary correctness of establishing complete dominion over other peoples, simply because they do not share the same beliefs, or are different in any way -
This has got to be one of the greatest disgraces of the whole human race - To me, this seems to be almost the very core of all evil, warfare, and bloodshed in so many ways.
How unfortunate that such things of beauty and incredible miraculous cosmic perfection could have ever been so distorted into such bloody instruments of hatred, ill will, prejudice, and willful misunderstanding between so many people, still to this day.
Just felt like venting a little....
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 16, 2007, 12:27:52 AM
I've been troubled of late by those who insist that ours is a Christian nation. It is a matter of historical record which shows that our founding fathers were not alligned with "the Christian church" when putting together our government.
Tonight I was doing some reading on this subject and came across the following article. It is a real treat to read something with "just the facts" and little of the writer's opinion.
http://www.yosemitedems.net/FFathers.html (http://www.yosemitedems.net/FFathers.html)
Check it out if you're looking for quotable quotes on this subject.
Cindi
No, it is not.
And I have posited before that in my admittedly very limited perspective, I do believe that we are living now in the incipient [perhaps beyond incipient] stages of the [self] destruction of this nation in a pattern which has been oft repeated throughout history [i.e., Roman Empire].
I too rhetorically shake my head, when I hear this country described as such.
Annagirl. That's it isn't it? You've pinpointed the key issue. What would Christ do? (Assuming he was the guy we've been taught he was). Wasn't it Jesus who "coined" the phrase "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's?"
I've only looked at the first video that Susan posted here. I'm going to have to look at the other two later today. But I'm astonished at how much is really behind this. And here I thought that it was just a bunch of wackos throwing their weight around. I don't generally give much weight to conspiracies, so I'm not going to call it that.... but this is a very well organized effort isn't it?
Cindi
"The people who think this is a Christian nation are what's known as Christian reconstructionists."
Not exclusively.
There is a large contingent of the naive and ignorant.
"I've been troubled of late by those who insist that ours is a Christian nation."
I watched the first video; I like her.
It necessarily begs the question: "What constitutes Christianity?"
Europe was created by history. America was created by philosophy. -- Margaret Thatcher.
Too bad the neo-cons don't know this. :(
-- Brede
Bravo!! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
Could this be re-engineered into a 'Who said THAT?!?' e-mail, and leave it to the reader to GOOGLE the author? It's MUCH more powerful when you think it's written by some kinda' amur'ka-hatin' RAD-i-kul, and you find out it's a Founding Father.
And for those who revel in ritual without understanding what it is you're saying, a mondergreen version of a common ritual:
Quote"I pledge a lesion to the flag, of the United State of America, and to the republic for Richard Stans, one naked individual, with liver tea and just this for all."
Karen
Quote from: AnnagirlForever on April 16, 2007, 02:36:59 AM
How unfortunate that such things of beauty and incredible miraculous cosmic perfection could have ever been ever been distorted into such bloody instruments of hatred, ill will, prejudice, and willful misunderstanding between so many people still to this day.
Just felt like venting a little....
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Anna...........what would Jesus do? I think after He cried, he would take over. The trouble with the church, is that it's full of people. The trouble with Christians, is that they're people following people.
Bev, Christian
Who was it said that our "constitution can withstand the term of any president"? I think that we've come dangerously close to disproving that famous remark!
Cindi
Quote from: Bev on April 17, 2007, 12:11:53 AM
Quote from: AnnagirlForever on April 16, 2007, 02:36:59 AM
How unfortunate that such things of beauty and incredible miraculous cosmic perfection could have ever been ever been distorted into such bloody instruments of hatred, ill will, prejudice, and willful misunderstanding between so many people still to this day.
Just felt like venting a little....
Sincerely,
Annagirl
Anna...........what would Jesus do? I think after He cried, he would take over. The trouble with the church, is that it's full of people. The trouble with Christians, is that they're people following people.
Bev, Christian
Mankind perverts, abuses or distorts pretty much everything that it get 'its hands' on or is involved with, be it theology or the complete absence of theology.
I look at the state of the religious world as it is, has been and I just shake my head.
I read literary tripe like the 'Humanist Manifesto' and I scoff at the presumptuousness, naivete and self-deification of it.
The commonality between these two? Mankind thinks that it can do things in life fully independently on the sole basis of its intuition or internal guidance.
Please. ::)
Jeremiah 10:23, et al.
I believe that it is when we move from hoping that God is on our side to where we KNOW that God IS on our side that we create these huge boondoggles.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on April 17, 2007, 10:00:17 AM
I believe that it is when we move from hoping that God is on our side to where we KNOW that God IS on our side that we create these huge boondoggles.
Cindi
Cindi,
The onlything I would disagree with is the word "boondoggle." It needs to be replaced with something much more dangerous & alarming. Something like "extremist."
Is the United States a Christian nation? No. I believe that we are becoming a nation of religious extremists. If you take away the IED's and suicide bombers and just at the rhetoric, is there really much of a difference between the Neocons/"Religious Right" and the Islamic clerics of Iran & Iraq?
I don't really think so.
And that is very fightening...
Chaunte
Quote from: Chaunte on April 17, 2007, 07:34:16 PM
The onlything I would disagree with is the word "boondoggle." It needs to be replaced with something much more dangerous & alarming. Something like "extremist."
Is the United States a Christian nation? No. I believe that we are becoming a nation of religious extremists. If you take away the IED's and suicide bombers and just at the rhetoric, is there really much of a difference between the Neocons/"Religious Right" and the Islamic clerics of Iran & Iraq?
I don't really think so.
And that is very fightening...
Actually when you think of the far religious right, we have had IED's. They just planted them at abortion clinics and gay bars. What actually worries me is the possibility that this country could turn into a true theocracy. Fortunately, there is no right wing preacher around who is charismatic enough to sway the extremist vote. (Read Robert Heinlein's novella
If This Goes On.)
Beverly
Right now I'm reading "The Blank Slate", by Steven Pinker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate). In it, he comes up with some fundamental frames that have lead to the thinking that has made the modern-day militant Christians we're discussing in this topic. I've linked to a Wikipedia page with a bit more on the book. Basically, after attempting to show how 'The Blank Slate', 'The Noble Savage' and 'The Ghost in the Machine' lead to the belief that all human beings are innately capable of any choice they want, (including for/against homosexuality or transsexuality, the angle that has me interested...), and this mind-set leads to overgeneralization and persecution of those who deviate (they could choose NOT to, y'know,) he sets about showing how the Ghost IS the Machine, as it were, that our spirits/souls arise out of the bio-chemo-electrical-mechanical machine that is our bodies and indeed is US!
But far from leading to nihilism and the loss of all morality, Mr Pinker shows (or is beginning to show, which is where I am in the book, how the human mind, made up of subsystems containing black-box modules which are all cross wired to each other, gives rise to morality, altruism, and other behaviours cherished by the 'free will' Christians (and, of course, others who desperately wish to believe in a ghost- or a pronoun-in-the-machine.)
Along the way he brings research that illuminates his points, such as psychopaths showed all the traits of psychopathy at a very early age (lack of remorse, unreliability, cruelty to animals/ other children, untruthfulness,) and the eerie similarities in the personalities, talents and skills of identical twins, who essentially share the exact same genes.
I present this as further food for thought on this topic...
Karen
Quote from: BeverlyAnn on April 17, 2007, 08:15:48 PM
Quote from: Chaunte on April 17, 2007, 07:34:16 PM
The onlything I would disagree with is the word "boondoggle." It needs to be replaced with something much more dangerous & alarming. Something like "extremist."
Is the United States a Christian nation? No. I believe that we are becoming a nation of religious extremists. If you take away the IED's and suicide bombers and just at the rhetoric, is there really much of a difference between the Neocons/"Religious Right" and the Islamic clerics of Iran & Iraq?
I don't really think so.
And that is very fightening...
Actually when you think of the far religious right, we have had IED's. They just planted them at abortion clinics and gay bars. What actually worries me is the possibility that this country could turn into a true theocracy. Fortunately, there is no right wing preacher around who is charismatic enough to sway the extremist vote. (Read Robert Heinlein's novella If This Goes On.)
Beverly
Hi, Bev!
I stand corrected about the IED's. Thank you. And I have read
If This Goes On. I am seeing far to many paralels between fiction & reality.
Chaunte
Remember - just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that the world isn't out to get you! ;)
Quote from: Chaunte on April 18, 2007, 07:07:06 PM
And I have read If This Goes On. I am seeing far to many paralels between fiction & reality.
Ironic isn't it how a story written in 1940 and expanded to novella length in 1953 can be so relevant to what the right wing is up to these days?
Beverly
The Handmaid's Tale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale) by Margaret Atwood (published in 1985) foretold the United States being taken over by right-wing Christian fundamentalist totalitarians -- from women's point of view.
Lest you think this book is simply feminist propaganda, Atwood is too complex a thinker to make this too simplistic. The novel shows how such religious totalitarian systems are run for the benefit of a few elite men on the backs of women, but also projects some tendencies of feminism in the 1980s and shows them co-opted into the Christian fundamentalist regime, namely the anti-pornography crusaders where the right-wing fundies teamed up with that strain of feminism. It sort of asks feminists to consider where their path is taking them.
The Handmaid's Tale describes a regime in which the bodies of executed "gender traitors" are strung up to hang on the wall of the closed university library as a warning to the rest. That's you and me, folks.
Speaking of parallels between fiction and reality-- Atwood wrote it in the middle of the Reagan administration, and this novel was prescient of where Dominionism is headed right now. They have openly announced their intention to put gays to death, and you know they include us ->-bleeped-<-s in that category.
Some Christians are trying to make it one, by rewritting history, distorting facts, and even assembling a massive Jesus voting army.
They are just scared because the united states is the last stronghold for Christian fundamentalism. However, the religious power of even Christianity is falling like a stone, and even the Bible belt isn't immune.
My home town is fanatically religious, even to the point where the principle made jews take off their star of david shirts, confusing it for Satanism(which in itself is a protected belief), then a day later made them take off their shirts again because they were "distracting." That principle is just lucky I left the school before that event because I'm a huge Atheist and I don't back down anymore. I'd take it to court before I took off my "God is just pretend" Shirt.
I love the way they claim 'original intent'. How easy is it to put words into the mouths of dead people?
The architects of the document which lays out how our form of government is CONSTITUTED (made up,) wanted to make sure there would be no tyranny based on an officially recognized religion against those who have different beliefs or no beliefs.
Quote from: Amendment ICongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
How do we get "America is a Christian Nation" out of that?
The First Amendment tells me that the Government of the United States of America is supposed to be blind to all religions. The Government is supposed to make its decisions without consulting religion, but on the rational merits of the case at hand. And the Government is supposed to distribute its service and support FAIRLY to all it's citizens, without favouring some because they are the 'right' religion, or dis-favouring others because they're not, or because they refuse to accept any religion because they choose to have no religion.
The Handmaid's Tale, indeed!
Those who believe in progress in rights, those who believe in 'we're all in this together' rather than 'you're on your own' had BETTER start standing up and doing whatever they can to beat back those who would steal the rights we all have won for ALL over the last 70 or so years.
A Majority of Christians do not agree that we are a Christian nation. It's only a minority -- a well organized, very active minority -- who have been the driving force towards pushing for asserting the USA as a Christian Nation.
If you don't want that to be, you need to be actively doing something to resist it.
Karen
In the U.K we are a very mixed race community and so we are not all Christians. I personally don't get involved in religion, Christian or otherwise but still have my own beliefs which are non religion based.
I asked my parents this same question once. The answer I got was "The first people came over here so they could practice Christianity and the founding fathers were Christian, so we are a Christian nation." I never really bought that.
The Myth of a Christian Nation (http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/ProductDetail.htm?ProdID=com.zondervan.9780310281221&QueryStringSite=Zondervan) by Gregory A. Boyd
Quote
Arguing from Scripture and history, Dr. Boyd makes a compelling case that whenever the church gets too close to any political or national ideology, it is disastrous for the church and harmful to society. Dr. Boyd contends that the American Evangelical Church has allowed itself to be co-opted by the political right (and some by the political left) and exposes how this is harming the church's unique calling to build the kingdom of God. In the course of his argument, Dr. Boyd challenges some of the most deeply held convictions of evangelical Christians in America – for example, that America is, or ever was, "a Christian nation" or that Christians ought to be trying to "take America back for God."
Certainly not. The 'right wing' religious types didn't even exist in the same way 200 years ago. The argument back then was states rights vs Federalists. Nevertheless, most of the state republics had religious laws so you could argue that some of the states were theocracies. Massachutsetts was one of the theocratic countries back in the late 1700s and that surprised me a bit.
Quote from: Aeyra on July 17, 2007, 10:04:24 PM
Massachutsetts was one of the theocratic countries back in the late 1700s and that surprised me a bit.
Yes, and the dissidents left to form Rhode Island.
The United States was founded using Christian ideals. The founders fathers believed in a Supreme Being and acknowledged such. Many people came here because they wanted to be able to practice their religion without interference from the Church in Rome and the government. In Europe, both entities were in choots with each, controlling people's lives to the extent that they practically could not do anything without the church's consent. There were many other faiths but the Catholic church in Rome had so much control over national powers.
One reason that we have the separation of church and state is because of what our founding fathers and other experienced and saw first hand. That's why America has no state sanctioned religion. Religion/spirituality has always been a part of the humankind, no matter the culture. Of course, there have been many things done in the name of religion that are dead wrong (Holy Inquisition, The Crusades). That can be said about science, education, and economics. Anything that keeps a group of people down is to be avoided.
I have no problem with religious symbols and sayings on public buildings. It is not pushing religion or any values on anybody. It's just an expression of what the founding fathers saw as divine intervention. Remember that what America was doing at the time was quite radical. It had never been done before.
What happening now is that you have forces that want to do away anything connected with religion and spirituality. Remember, spirituality was a part of the lives of African slaves and entrenched in Native-American society.
Gennee
What forces do you refer to, Gennee, that want to supress spirituality etc? The resistance to monuments to particular religious tradition I think is a reaction TO (a climate of) suppression by those forces that use religion as a means to another end, namely control.
N