I have as of late, when going out with some sort of clothing and/or makeup been called "Sir" when there was really no reason to add the "sir" to the sentance or statement. I find that I really hate being called "sir" now even though I mostly appear as a soft male anyways to most people. What is strange is that when they are calling me sir or "mister" they are trying to qualify it in thier own head that what they are seeing really is a sir. They go out of thier way to tack on the "sir" part , it has happened more than once now. I did get called mam 2 weeks ago by an elderly lady who could not see well but thats it.
I wonder when i will start hearing the "mam"? with a questionable look or "Miss"? with a questiobable tone. It is very interesting to gage how other people see me currently. I wonder if anyone here has gotten the "sir factor"
Perhaps it is luck but I've only been "Sir'd" once by a little old lady in the supermarket that almost ran me down with her cart comming around the corner. Most of the time I dress fairly girlie to present a clear unambiguous image of female. That day I was in jeans with a nice top. BTW I am 5'11" and big boned and she was like 5'2" lol
Start hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while. The human brain automatically/subconsciously differentiates gender by analysis of the targets facial shape and skin texture. From the front, texture is relied on more, from the side, it's geometry. This is possibly one of the reasons a lot of people wait till they've been on hormones for a while before they attempt to present as their desired gender. Gender recognition is learned in infancy and mastered before the age of about 8. When you're being gendered one way or another you should never take it personally, for most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.
People can be A holes, and you're not the only person that has to deal with them.
I had a teacher a couple months ago that absolutely refused to call me any girl pronouns. People would use female pronouns towards me and she would correct them. Karma had it in for her though, because she got fired. So just remember, when people want to emphasize that your anatomy is male, karma is waiting with a giant hand around the corner to smack them.
Well, if it's deliberate then that another issue entirely. I know everyone is different but in my experience at least, I've never actually asked anyone to gender me one way or another. After 16 months of hrt when people meet me I seem to be universally assumed to be be female. I wear very little makeup, have an androgynous name and my voice is 50/50. The only people who seem to use he/him with me are my close family but we hardly see each other so they don't get a lot of practice, and a few close friends who occasionally slip up. It really doesnt bother me, there's enough to worry about in the world to start sweating the small stuff. Your sense of validation has to come from within or else you might find you just end up feeling hollow.
Quotefor most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.
That is so right. But I have rarely been called "sir" while out even before hormones.
Once at a checkout had a store clerk ask, "I need to see your ID ma'am" and after he see it went out of his way to call me "sir". He was being disrespectful and very rude to me.
I have the biggest problem with people that new me before.
Honestly I know many are trying but often slip and use the dreaded "sir" or "he" type pronouns.
As far as how long it take on hormones to not get the "sir" from strangers it all depend on many factors.
Factors like how masculine you look, your age, and your body chemistry.
I hate that word with a passion, id rather be called any word under the sun but "sir" But only being just under two months into HRT. im trying to suck it up. the smile on my face when I get called mam, or miss, is like christmas as a lil kid tho. The feeling cant be put into words.
I've definitely gotten the deliberate "sir" before. It's like a cheese grater on my brain, the way they drag it out and give you that look... But I get ma'am or miss more often, which I credit not to my being able to pass, but to the general predisposition toward goodness in people.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on August 29, 2012, 05:15:14 PM
I have as of late, when going out with some sort of clothing and/or makeup been called "Sir" when there was really no reason to add the "sir" to the sentance or statement. I find that I really hate being called "sir" now even though I mostly appear as a soft male anyways to most people. What is strange is that when they are calling me sir or "mister" they are trying to qualify it in thier own head that what they are seeing really is a sir. They go out of thier way to tack on the "sir" part , it has happened more than once now. I did get called mam 2 weeks ago by an elderly lady who could not see well but thats it.
I wonder when i will start hearing the "mam"? with a questionable look or "Miss"? with a questiobable tone. It is very interesting to gage how other people see me currently. I wonder if anyone here has gotten the "sir factor"
Even as you progress, you will still get "sir" because there are so many non-native speakers and they simply get confused. I do the same thing when I speak Spanish sometimes saying senor when I am talking to a woman. it is not misgendering, it is just a grammatical error. BTW have you got your Safeway card yet? That is a whole 'nother ball game I will tell you about later. Speaking of ball games. Go Giants! Yay!
Yeah I got a Safeway Card, what happens now? I already went shopping with it heh...
Hope it's ok for a ftm to join in ;)
I honestly don't get the fact that we still use 'sir' and 'mam' 'miss' and so on anymore. We live in the 21th century for gods sake! We should have gotten to the point where we could be viewed as who we are and not our gender (or sex for that matter). Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that gender isn't impotent. Just don't get why everything have to have gender codes for everything (clothes, make-up, how people react to each other and so on...). As much as I love the Victorian era, I just think we should stop all the gender norms (or more like sex norms because too most people gender is always the same as your sex)
Sorry for my rant I'm not attacking you or anything (hope it didn't feel that way). I'm just wondering about the this and it turned into a rant.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on August 30, 2012, 03:47:46 PM
Yeah I got a Safeway Card, what happens now? I already went shopping with it heh...
When I used to shop at Safeway, they always refer to you by your name, Mister, Mrs. Miss ___________. Early on, I was bedeviled because with my name it is hard to understand whether they called me Mister or Missus...besides they mumble....especially guys. Later, they always called me Miss and occasionally Mrs. I always joked it's Miss, I am not married. Then they are supposed to ask you if you need help out even if you only have one item! I would joke sometimes, "yes, I need help out but not with my groceries." Anyway, I hate Safeway. I shop at Lucky.
I am really astonished that women here have never been called sir by a clerk as every woman say they have been called sir. Again, I think it is not being misgendered necessarily, I notice when I have been with women who get called sir, it is always with a non-native speaker. Therefore, it think it is a grammatical error. Funny, I hadn't thought about it until now but not once in the last five years have I been called sir in the company of a woman. On the other hand, several times women (femmes) I have been with have been called sir. How they deal with it varies. I will tell you that none of them ignore it.
Are you guys actually presenting female when this happens?
I'm a little confused. I've never had this happen to me yet. I always wondered how this would really happen in everyday life. Because, well for example with FTMs, if they don't pass then people will not really suddenly think "trans," they'll just think it's a butch cis girl. But... presenting female as a genetic male is a lot more deliberate. When someone's wearing makeup and women's clothes and stuff, there's no confusing what they're presenting as.
Personally I think my presentation saves me in a lot of situations when I might not pass if I just dressed androgynously. And mostly I know that's true because I went from passing 100% male to passing 100% female in the span of a couple days when I went FT. But my presentation is blatantly feminine so I think that's pretty important. :)
So... while I do know there are just legitimate trolls who are just trying to give you a hard time, I don't think that's the case with most people... maybe some people just have no clue about you being trans and your presentation is neutral enough to let your still-mostly-masculine features do the gendering.
Pretty, I had traveled all over the USA in earlier stages of transitions, there are huge cultural differences that impact how people gender others as well as has there reaction to it and also the use of sir and maam. So your experiences are likely a lot different than others for that reason alone.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on August 30, 2012, 05:44:53 PM
I honestly don't get the fact that we still use 'sir' and 'mam' 'miss' and so on anymore. We live in the 21th century for gods sake! We should have gotten to the point where we could be viewed as who we are and not our gender (or sex for that matter). Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that gender isn't impotent. Just don't get why everything have to have gender codes for everything (clothes, make-up, how people react to each other and so on...). As much as I love the Victorian era, I just think we should stop all the gender norms (or more like sex norms because too most people gender is always the same as your sex)
You'd think this would be great but it's actually not as nice as you think. I live in a place where such word aren't used and the lack of these words leave a total vacuum where you'd normally get some feedback about who you are to the world. There can literally be months in between each time I get any sort of verbal clue about my perceived gender. It's been years since my transition so it's not that much of an issue anymore, but when I go to the US to visit my in-laws it is absolutely blissful to hear the words "ma'am" and "miss" all day long. It is one of the best features of vacationing outside my country, apart from the vacation of course.
Quote from: pretty on August 31, 2012, 07:51:52 AM
Are you guys actually presenting female when this happens?
I'm a little confused. I've never had this happen to me yet. I always wondered how this would really happen in everyday life. Because, well for example with FTMs, if they don't pass then people will not really suddenly think "trans," they'll just think it's a butch cis girl. But... presenting female as a genetic male is a lot more deliberate. When someone's wearing makeup and women's clothes and stuff, there's no confusing what they're presenting as.
Personally I think my presentation saves me in a lot of situations when I might not pass if I just dressed androgynous. And mostly I know that's true because I went from passing 100% male to passing 100% female in the span of a couple days when I went FT. But my presentation is blatantly feminine so I think that's pretty important. :)
So... while I do know there are just legitimate trolls who are just trying to give you a hard time, I don't think that's the case with most people... maybe some people just have no clue about you being trans and your presentation is neutral enough to let your still-mostly-masculine features do the gendering.
I think you're spot on Pretty! I've always presented androgynous and have been maamed and sired by both males and females alike. Personally I don't care how they address me as long as they're polite. They take responsibility for and react to whatever gender they perceive me to be. I don't take exception to them for that, after all it is confusing for some based on their lack of exposure to the GLBTI world. My cis female spouse always gets a chuckle and points at me when we are both out together and a female server says, "What can I get for you ladies?" It's our private joke. At the local hardware store and at Home Depot I always get clocked as a female. The mystery was solved some time ago when someone told us that they had always thought we were a lesbian couple, she the "lipstick" and me the "Butch." I suppose many here wouldn't enjoy that as I do, but after lengthy consideration of the expense and time I'd have to exert in terms of dresses, skirts, shoes, blouses, sweaters, coats, purses and makeup to be a screaming success, I came to the conclusion that I'm too darned lazy to put forth that kind of effort on a daily basis, and I've managed to come this far transitioning 90% physically and kept my marriage together. No sense in overturning the boat when I'm reasonably happy and content at this point.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
Pretty, I had traveled all over the USA in earlier stages of transitions, there are huge cultural differences that impact how people gender others as well as has there reaction to it and also the use of sir and maam. So your experiences are likely a lot different than others for that reason alone.
I guess so. Though I just recently moved from cozy metropolitan suburbia to a mix of beachy and blue collar farmy culture and frankly even if my ideas about fashion and makeup and things are pretty unique around here, everybody can still tell that my presentation is very female.
Though, to be fair I don't get ma'am'd much just like I never got sir'd much, maybe because I'm young still. I still know what people think though because salespeople call me her/she or beautiful/pretty. And that is still when my face (which passed as male) and body are virtually the same as they were pre-hrt (I'm only 3ish months in). So presentation is really really important.
Quote from: pretty on August 31, 2012, 07:51:52 AM
Are you guys actually presenting female when this happens?
I'm a little confused. I've never had this happen to me yet. I always wondered how this would really happen in everyday life. Because, well for example with FTMs, if they don't pass then people will not really suddenly think "trans," they'll just think it's a butch cis girl. But... presenting female as a genetic male is a lot more deliberate. When someone's wearing makeup and women's clothes and stuff, there's no confusing what they're presenting as.
Personally I think my presentation saves me in a lot of situations when I might not pass if I just dressed androgynously. And mostly I know that's true because I went from passing 100% male to passing 100% female in the span of a couple days when I went FT. But my presentation is blatantly feminine so I think that's pretty important. :)
So... while I do know there are just legitimate trolls who are just trying to give you a hard time, I don't think that's the case with most people... maybe some people just have no clue about you being trans and your presentation is neutral enough to let your still-mostly-masculine features do the gendering.
pretty - I have long hair and am typically wearing makeup and a blouse, skirt, and flats. I wouldn't say I'm dressed very neutrally. Also, while I know people love to stereotype rural areas as being less progressive, I live in Chicago. It's the third largest city in the US. Still, people who are clearly born and raised around here do indeed go out of their way to emphasize to me that they "figured out I'm really a man".
Honestly I think awareness around the USA for how to address transsexuals is pretty low. Many people will go a lifetime without (knowingly) meeting a true to life transsexual (as opposed to seeing a drag queen or a ->-bleeped-<-). So.. most people do not know the etiquette of how to speak with us. We honestly need a few more mainstream documentaries and things of that nature to enlighten those people.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on August 30, 2012, 05:44:53 PM
Hope it's ok for a ftm to join in ;)
I honestly don't get the fact that we still use 'sir' and 'mam' 'miss' and so on anymore. We live in the 21th century for gods sake! We should have gotten to the point where we could be viewed as who we are and not our gender (or sex for that matter). Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that gender isn't impotent. Just don't get why everything have to have gender codes for everything (clothes, make-up, how people react to each other and so on...). As much as I love the Victorian era, I just think we should stop all the gender norms (or more like sex norms because too most people gender is always the same as your sex)
Sorry for my rant I'm not attacking you or anything (hope it didn't feel that way). I'm just wondering about the this and it turned into a rant.
I would imagine the continued use of "sir" and "ma'am" stems from its use as formal English. Consider any situation that involves a subordinate interacting with an authority (military, student to teacher, child to parent) or situations in which you deal with a stranger, especially someone working in the service industry. Some people just believe that addressing a stranger with a qualifier ("Excuse me, ma'am?", "Yes, sir") is more polite and demonstrative of respect than without one ("Excuse me?", "Yes.").
Aside from the trolls who blatantly mis-gender (miss-gender? oh, puns) someone, I suspect most of the people using a gender qualifier are doing so because it is a learned behavior: that is, they are conditioned to put some sort of qualifier at the end of their sentences, and they choose, sometimes naively, whatever gender term their brain interprets, even if it doesn't match what we are trying to present. I think anyone (inclusive and exclusive of the transgender community) doesn't appreciate being mis-gendered, but for us gender is a particularly sensitive issue, so the impact of being mis-gendered is much greater.
Even though it's the 21st century, gender expression as a social issue is still in its relative infancy, so it will take some time before the use of gender qualifiers is challenged.
Quote from: pretty on August 31, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
I guess so. Though I just recently moved from cozy metropolitan suburbia to a mix of beachy and blue collar farmy culture and frankly even if my ideas about fashion and makeup and things are pretty unique around here, everybody can still tell that my presentation is very female.
Though, to be fair I don't get ma'am'd much just like I never got sir'd much, maybe because I'm young still. I still know what people think though because salespeople call me her/she or beautiful/pretty. And that is still when my face (which passed as male) and body are virtually the same as they were pre-hrt (I'm only 3ish months in). So presentation is really really important.
I had not considered that younger people don't get sir or ma'am. In the American South, and among African-Americans in most places , it is considered obstreperous not to address an older person, as sir or ma'am or maybe miss if it is a younger woman. I am older and I get "ma'amed" it seems several times a day. I got ma'amed three times in class today by a younger GSI. (graduate student assistant who conducts the discussion. )
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 08:59:46 PM
I had not considered that younger people don't get sir or ma'am. In the American South, and among African-Americans in most places , it is considered obstreperous not to address an older person, as sir or ma'am or maybe miss if it is a younger woman. I am older and I get "ma'amed" it seems several times a day. I got ma'amed three times in class today by a younger GSI. (graduate student assistant who conducts the discussion. )
I look around 14-15, but I've never gotten sir, instead I get "miss" a lot (I'm not a FAAB btw and present male) by immigrant men in a pretty asswhole-ish tone. I guess they are trying to put me back in my place somehow as they percieve me to be a butch girl. It's ridiculous, but it's also pretty crappy to see guys who still think that way.
Quote from: SilentOwls on August 31, 2012, 09:10:21 PM
I look around 14-15, but I've never gotten sir, instead I get "miss" a lot (I'm not a FAAB btw and present male) by immigrant men in a pretty asswhole-ish tone. I guess they are trying to put me back in my place somehow as they percieve me to be a butch girl. It's ridiculous, but it's also pretty crappy to see guys who still think that way.
Interesting. Where do you live and where are the immigrant men from?
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 09:14:04 PM
Interesting. Where do you live and where are the immigrant men from?
large east coast city (rather not get too specific)
The immigrant men are either arab or some variation thereof (no offense, I'm just not good with differentiating between nationalities!)
Granted, I've been on large doses of spiro (definetly not recommending self-medication) since I was 15 and full dose estrogen since a few years after that,so physically I am very androgynous (soft voice that didn't drop, small wrists and shoulders, skinny build but wide hips, small ribcage and breasts...you get the point.)
Wow! You are lucky I was born too late to do that.
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on August 31, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
pretty - I have long hair and am typically wearing makeup and a blouse, skirt, and flats. I wouldn't say I'm dressed very neutrally. Also, while I know people love to stereotype rural areas as being less progressive, I live in Chicago. It's the third largest city in the US. Still, people who are clearly born and raised around here do indeed go out of their way to emphasize to me that they "figured out I'm really a man".
Well, my first thought is that makeup would help.
Also that's not really related to the topic because even if there is no gendered language, trolls are still gonna go out of their way to make sure you know that they clocked you.
But yea mean people are no fun. The only real choice is to pass better.
Actually I guess it is not entirely about age... after posting here I was "ma'am"ed twice the next day.
And I definitely only pass because of my feminine presentation so yea... that is my main suggestion. But I have never been sir'ed.
Quote from: SilentOwls on August 31, 2012, 09:20:58 PM
large east coast city (rather not get too specific)
The immigrant men are either arab or some variation thereof (no offense, I'm just not good with differentiating between nationalities!)
Granted, I've been on large doses of spiro (definetly not recommending self-medication) since I was 15 and full dose estrogen since a few years after that,so physically I am very androgynous (soft voice that didn't drop, small wrists and shoulders, skinny build but wide hips, small ribcage and breasts...you get the point.)
pictures?
Quote from: peky on September 05, 2012, 08:52:45 AM
pictures?
I'd rather not end up on google images, so I'll just have to have JamieD vouch for me :P.
No wonder Jamie D feels like fading away... looking at you lot :P
Jealous can kill the finest, eh >:-)
Axx
Quote from: Abracadabra on September 05, 2012, 09:46:11 AM
No wonder Jamie D feels like fading away looking at you lot :P
Jealous can kill the finest, eh >:-)
Axx
lol, maybe so. Quite a few people end up here on google images though, and I prefer being anonymous :o
Now I'm wondering if anyone has seen a pic of Jamie D.
Quote from: crazy old bat on September 05, 2012, 10:05:16 AM
Now I'm wondering if anyone has seen a pic of Jamie D.
I have,
very cute! :D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdnimg.visualizeus.com%2Fthumbs%2F16%2Fbc%2Fchild%2Canimal%2Crandom%2Ccute%2Canimal%2Cblack%2C%2C%2Cwhite%2Cboy-16bc5dde24d02d9eb206d9aff9b61423_h.jpg&hash=9d690ba0ba3b2a83f4f48af5e6919ab3fe640520)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manager.co.th%2Fasp-bin%2FImage.aspx%3FID%3D2281971&hash=cf61d866bb4e501a37ba353457fa1bf60f29a102)
Tunnel 6, Row 47, Seat 8
That was you?!? :o ;)
I dont get "sir" a lot even though I dress and look masculine. Its odd how people will try to use something that is meant as a sign of respect to reveal bigotry in themselves. Since I havent really even started this journey, I have not been there. Funny side story, I get "maam" a lot when going through drive thrus (dont know why, not trying to sound feminine, and after seeing me, they dont maam or sir me either) and it really makes me smile inside, but its really funny how I have to feign dislike of it when it happens with my wife. I know my sarcasm MUST be showing through. Oh, that rascally drive thru attendant must not be able to tell what a man sounds like, shucks.
I only get sir'ed by people that know I'm trans that are trying to be jerks. Unfortunately, while at work, I have to ignore it. I tend to be downright cold to those types though, so that there is no doubt whatsoever that I think of them as jerks.
Quote from: Isabelle on August 29, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
Start hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while. The human brain automatically/subconsciously differentiates gender by analysis of the targets facial shape and skin texture. From the front, texture is relied on more, from the side, it's geometry. This is possibly one of the reasons a lot of people wait till they've been on hormones for a while before they attempt to present as their desired gender. Gender recognition is learned in infancy and mastered before the age of about 8. When you're being gendered one way or another you should never take it personally, for most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.
This ---^ Unless they are making a conscious observation. But most people who just pass me by tend to say mam. Even when I am not presenting as a woman.
Even with conscious observation it is sometimes difficult for them and they don't know what to say until I open up my mouth.
Quote from: Isabelle on August 29, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
Start hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while. The human brain automatically/subconsciously differentiates gender by analysis of the targets facial shape and skin texture. From the front, texture is relied on more, from the side, it's geometry. This is possibly one of the reasons a lot of people wait till they've been on hormones for a while before they attempt to present as their desired gender. Gender recognition is learned in infancy and mastered before the age of about 8. When you're being gendered one way or another you should never take it personally, for most people it's a completely automatic response and not intended to offend.
Can you provide a citation for this?
Quote from: Rita on September 06, 2012, 02:41:31 PM
This ---^ Unless they are making a conscious observation. But most people who just pass me by tend to say mam. Even when I am not presenting as a woman.
Where do you live in which passersby speak to you?
QuoteCan you provide a citation for this?
Ok. My statement is supported by many papers, the following supports the most directly. In future, if I'm expected to provide supporting documents with my posts, what format would you like my referencing in? Personally I prefer APA but, I'm easy.
http://cogsci.bme.hu/~gkovacs/letoltes/2nd_b.pdf (http://cogsci.bme.hu/~gkovacs/letoltes/2nd_b.pdf)
Ps, you're not the only one who went to school
Xox
QuotePs, you're not the only one who went to school
I don't understand why a request for a citation warrants a personal attack. I am in school and considering a minor in Gender Studies so I am interested in this stuff. The standard citation format for Internet forums is a simple link. I found some of your insights interesting although the claim
QuoteStart hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while
is highly questionable at best.
Most of the stuff we post here is based on our own personal experience so citations are not necessary but when people post things that are other people's opinions it is common Internet courtesy to provide a link.
Quote...is highly questionable at best.
My comment about hrt/sir was based on my personal experience. Reading the before and after thread on this forum makes me think I'm not unique.
QuoteI don't understand why a request for a citation warrants a personal attack
Yeah. It wasn't really an attack. It was snarky though. Basically I just didn't like how you requested my source. It is also considered common Internet courtesy to say "please" when asking someone for something.
QuoteStart hrt, the "sir-ing" stops after a while.
There is no doubt that for some of us, especially if we are younger, after HRT, the "sirs" will diminish or maybe even cease but there are dozens of other factors that go into not getting misgendered beyond merely taking medication. (For instance, all the hormones in the world won't get rid of facial hair and facial hair detection almost guarantees getting sirred)
I have already reached the summit so it doesn't matter to me but making a statement like this might lead newbies to harbor unrealistic expectations.
Quotethis might lead newbies to harbor unrealistic expectations.
Well, its a good thing you're usually required to have realistic expectations of what hrt will do (via therapy or
informed consent) before you start then, isn't it? :) Congratulations on your climb
A reminder, if a post offends you, or you consider a post an attack, please use the "Report to moderator" function. Thank you, Devlyn
I prefer to address obstreperous posts directly.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on September 07, 2012, 11:53:00 PM
I prefer to address obstreperous posts directly.
Honestly, you can be kind of harsh. I don't know why you get offended when somone points it out.
Somewhat along the lines of another post up here, I move between the EU and the US a few times a year.... I also present very androgynously, even though I've been on HRT for 3 years and am just recovering from SRS.... In the EU, there is a lot of neutrality, and I'm almost always not gendered either way to my knowledge. In the US, however, I get a heap of ma'ams even if I'm not trying at all. I also get a heap of sirs, but neither bother me... Cultural differences, language differences, or just one group better at clocking than the other...
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on September 07, 2012, 11:53:00 PM
I prefer to address obstreperous posts directly.
Well, we insist that the Staff addresses these issues. If you feel attacked, report the post. Hugs, Devlyn
QuoteI prefer to address obstreperous posts directly.
Ok. Please understand this question is solely being asked out of intellectual curiosity but, are you misusing the word "obstreperous" or do you suffer from illusory superiority? Now, please understand that nothing im asking is a thinly veild insult, on the contrary, I'm quite certain your magnanimousness is matched only by your self admitted mastery of proverbial mountaineering.
QuoteI have already reached the summit so it doesn't matter to me
This statement I find particularly interesting. I wonder if you're aware of "The rules of the Internet"? The rule I'm specifically referring to is, of course, "Pics or it didn't happen".... unless of course it's only you that is allowed to demand evidence from people's forum posts? ( if this is in fact the case, please refer to my previous question regarding illusory superiority)
In the past, you've mentioned you enjoy polemic writing, Me too :) they're playing our song xox
Can you two take your polemic musicfest to private message, please? I don't think as many of our members and guests enjoy it as much as you think they do. Thank you, Devlyn