Despite being on HRT for over 1.5 years my results are pretty bad. I "quit" in March only to go back on it a month later in different form (injections), so figured the reasons for my lack of feminisation, or masculinisation seeing as I happen to look more masculine every day, was because of my breaks which led to breast shrinkage etc...
Just now I had a look on Youtube for MTF HRT updates/timeline videos and realised that 90% of them didn't pass either. People who I thought looked OK in older videos are now more masculine as if the only reason they were feminine to being with was because they had some late teen/early 20s baby fat in their face that seems to have vanished with age.
Maybe initially I had a skewed perception of transwomen and separated them from bio-girls evaluating them both in their own right rather than comparing with each other, or maybe I was just excited at the fact that I was on HRT and it was "going to get better". Either way, the effects of HRT are way overhyped on the internet, on this forum, the best results I got was looking like a 12 year old boy which I was happy about since youger age = more chance of passing but that baby fat was destined to go one day and as soon as it did my depression became worse than before starting my transition.
At least now I feel as though I'm not alone, I just have a clearer vision of my outcome than I did before. HRT = useless, unless you either have a tiny bone structure or are fat then it's not worth the side-effects, and FFS can't fix most of what causes us to look like men. For some people being treated like a woman is enough, personally I don't want to be patronised by those who see me as a caricature behing their nice words, if you're transitioning to pass then you may unfortunately be part of the 90% who won't make it.
For me, just the opposite applies. In my younger and fatter days I totally did not pass. HRT made no difference in my 20's when I was a bit thinner but still plenty of fat, no muscle. Now, in my 50's, I have little problems passing. My only hinderence is being 6ft tall in an area filled with 5'4" women. Also being one of the few under 200 lbs (WV). So when I get longish stares, I cannot really be sure exactly why.
Before we mature both guys and girls "tend" to look the same. That young, immature look we associate with feminine. In my opinion as no expert, from a purely anthropoligical viewpoint, childlike looking women tended to survive because of the males hard wiring not to beat the baby. And that is the image we project a woman should should look like. THe real world tells a much different and diverse story.
Diet and lifestyle will ultimately have a lot of affect on how you age as well as respond to HRT. As most (older) TSs will tell you, HRT takes a good 2 to 3 years to show its full effect. That is why FFS is often recommended to be put off to latter. Let mother nature run her course. Most GG's take quite a few years to grow and mature into women. We should not expect miracles to happen overnight, in a biological time sense.
What you have observed on videos from those MTFs does not sound much different from what ageing does to GGs over the course of their late teens and into their twenties. Back in the day of family photo albums, this was abundantly clear as cousin so and so became "Who is that?" on the next page. Same test, same observable result.
I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.
Passing is relative I think. It is not the same thing for everyone.
With hormones results vary, and you have been sporadically on them for only 18 months. That is no time at all time particularly given you stopped and started. Give the a chance.
And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care. It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.
That may not be enough for you, but it was enough for me.
Well said. I agree with this. There are so many transwomen and men that are very passable and look amazing. I just think some people it takes more work than others. Thats all.
Quote from: nicole99 on September 14, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.
Passing is relative I think. It is not the same thing for everyone.
With hormones results vary, and you have been sporadically on them for only 18 months. That is no time at all time particularly given you stopped and started. Give the a chance.
And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care. It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.
That may not be enough for you, but it was enough for me.
Though, as a counterpoint, the happiest Trans women I know have no prayer of passing, but doesn't seem to dampen their enthusiasm or daunt them from expressing their femininity in lots of ways.
Quote from: 8888 on September 14, 2012, 03:21:26 PM
Despite being on HRT for over 1.5 years my results are pretty bad. I "quit" in March only to go back on it a month later in different form (injections), so figured the reasons for my lack of feminisation, or masculinisation seeing as I happen to look more masculine every day, was because of my breaks which led to breast shrinkage etc...
Just now I had a look on Youtube for MTF HRT updates/timeline videos and realised that 90% of them didn't pass either. People who I thought looked OK in older videos are now more masculine as if the only reason they were feminine to being with was because they had some late teen/early 20s baby fat in their face that seems to have vanished with age.
Maybe initially I had a skewed perception of transwomen and separated them from bio-girls evaluating them both in their own right rather than comparing with each other, or maybe I was just excited at the fact that I was on HRT and it was "going to get better". Either way, the effects of HRT are way overhyped on the internet, on this forum, the best results I got was looking like a 12 year old boy which I was happy about since youger age = more chance of passing but that baby fat was destined to go one day and as soon as it did my depression became worse than before starting my transition.
At least now I feel as though I'm not alone, I just have a clearer vision of my outcome than I did before. HRT = useless, unless you either have a tiny bone structure or are fat then it's not worth the side-effects, and FFS can't fix most of what causes us to look like men. For some people being treated like a woman is enough, personally I don't want to be patronised by those who see me as a caricature behing their nice words, if you're transitioning to pass then you may unfortunately be part of the 90% who won't make it.
Thank you for your honesty. The fact is there is a lot of posturing going on. Those who "pass" usually don't keep it a secret while those who do not generally keep quiet. I suspect that many if not most of those who start HRT after puberty do not just magically start passing after being on HRT for a time. Unless one is built like an NFL tight end, a good FFS job will do the trick if HRT is not enough.
IDK... My roommate (a cis gendered male) tends to disagree with you. Many of the youtube videos he looks at says the women pass. In fact the only reason he would ever think to clock many of them is because he's been around me.
Clocking people is the last thing on many cis gendered peoples minds, especially when it's a brief moment that you're talking with someone. After a while, sure I'm betting most of us (if not all of us) are going to be figured out. We are the ones so obsessed with gender placement and the differences.
I pointed out a transsexual to my teacher a while back, she couldn't believe it (and it was obvious to me!) When I started pointing out the differences in the face shapes of women and men, she was shocked - absolutely clueless to the major differences.
Also, the best test to see if you pass: cis men talk in a different tone to women. It's subtle and very hard to explain, but it's more gentle and like we are helpless (sort of). Men do NOT do this to people they don't see to be female, and their binary thinking generally does not allow them to see transsexuals as female... like it or not. I'll admit I rarely got this the first few months of transitioning, but now I get it 100% of the time.
Women are harder to crack, but are MUCH less likely to clock you. I have a friend who I recently met. My roommate told her that his roommate is transsexual and he would bring me over to her house 1 day (I live only a few houses down btw). So one day we both went down there. She welcomed me in her house but her defensive wall was up... I could feel it. I just sat there and didn't say much... but I talked a bit. Well over time either me or my roommate blurted out something about me being trans... and she got the most confused look in her face and then it hit her! "NO WAY! YOU ARE ALAINA??!!" ... instantly her wall went down as if I was no longer the enemy. Today I brought it up with her and she confirmed what I pretty much felt: she's very untrusting with strange women, especially one coming over with her "gusband" (gay husband - she's a spaz but I love her to death). What I'm trying to point out is that women distrust other women and you can seriously feel it when you aren't being clocked.
Not to mention, if you don't pass your girl friends WONT let you go in the womens room with them (well if you insist they'll just act like they aren't going in with you).. if you do, believe me they'll drag you in there!
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 15, 2012, 12:16:15 AM
Also, the best test to see if you pass: cis men talk in a different tone to women. It's subtle and very hard to explain, but it's more gentle and like we are helpless (sort of). Men do NOT do this to people they don't see to be female, and their binary thinking generally does not allow them to see transsexuals as female... like it or not. I'll admit I rarely got this the first few months of transitioning, but now I get it 100% of the time.
This ^. I definetly noticed this, even if they perceive you as a "baby butch" (lesbian? butch? IDK), the tone is...different.
I don't find it really flattering though, it's more misogynistic and douche-y :P.
Quote from: JoanneB on September 14, 2012, 03:48:10 PM
For me, just the opposite applies. In my younger and fatter days I totally did not pass. HRT made no difference in my 20's when I was a bit thinner but still plenty of fat, no muscle. Now, in my 50's, I have little problems passing. My only hinderence is being 6ft tall in an area filled with 5'4" women. Also being one of the few under 200 lbs (WV). So when I get longish stares, I cannot really be sure exactly why.
Well the differences in gender are slightly more blurred as you get older. Men age better than women and I like to think MTFs also do, so you're essentially competing against a group of cis-women who don't even pass as their own gender. But you seem to have a good bone structure in your avatar so don't need any baby fat to hide the maculinity like a lot of us do.
Quote from: nicole99 on September 14, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.
Maybe, or it might be the other way round - MTF is happy with appearance so broadcasts it on Youtube or image threads. If a good number of passing transwomen are leaving sites like youtube or Susans imagine how many are avoiding having to show themselves because they aren't happy with their appearance? plus some of these vlogs are of people that have been on HRT for 4+ years.
Quote from: nicole99 on September 14, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care. It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.
Just them knowing them I'm trans embarrasses me. It's not like being a man/woman, transgender has a negative stigma attached to it...
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on September 14, 2012, 08:25:44 PM
Thank you for your honesty. The fact is there is a lot of posturing going on. Those who "pass" usually don't keep it a secret while those who do not generally keep quiet. I suspect that many if not most of those who start HRT after puberty do not just magically start passing after being on HRT for a time. Unless one is built like an NFL tight end, a good FFS job will do the trick if HRT is not enough.
FFS doesn't address vertical facial proportions, which is the main reason for people not passing along with broad body structure.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 15, 2012, 12:16:15 AM
Clocking people is the last thing on many cis gendered peoples minds, especially when it's a brief moment that you're talking with someone. After a while, sure I'm betting most of us (if not all of us) are going to be figured out. We are the ones so obsessed with gender placement and the differences.
I have a cis-frind who's clocked two women in the past in front of me, this guy doesn't know I'm trans and has no affiliation with any of the LGBT community. The girls he clocked passed way better than I could :(
QuoteFFS doesn't address vertical facial proportions, which is the main reason for people not passing along with broad body structure.
It does lol.
If the chin is shortened and the hairline is brought down a tiny bit the face will be smaller. Atleast in my case. Not really interested in FFS though, I pass fine without it.
Quote from: Aeris on September 15, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
It does lol.
If the chin is shortened and the hairline is brought down a tiny bit the face will be smaller. Atleast in my case. Not really interested in FFS though, I pass fine without it.
Actually I agree with 8888. The distance between the corner of the eyes and the corner of the lips aren't reduced enough on most people. That's big on clocking because it indicates a skull that has been though masculinization. But honestly I don't think it sets off as many visual flags as 8888 thinks it does. I think broad shoulders and the amount of testosterone supplied bone growth on the mandible are much more indicative.
But let's face it... the biggest clockers are facial hair and voice... and a TON of us aren't able to overcome those two... especially the voice!
Well frankly the reason that most mtfs don't pass is because most mtfs want to live socially still functionally male but with some kind of magic hrt and a new set of pronouns.
Hrt helps. But hrt is not magic. To some extent you gotta walk the walk. People underestimate that. Personally looking in the mirror I can see all the reasons I should be clocked but in reality it just never happens because even *if* I have a manface or something, there is just nothing else about me that seems male to people. It doesn't matter if my facial proportions are a lil off when everything else screams girl.
So I would suggest that if hrt is not enough there is something missing elsewhere. Do your makeup before you leave the house. Like really identify your bad features and learn about how you can use makeup to hide them. Dress as femininely as possible while staying appropriate for your body and the occasion. Get an objective evaluation of your voice and if it's not great then work on improving on it.
Ultimately it is not a problem you can just throw money at and you can't just wait it out. So go out there and show people what you know is within you. You have to give them something to work with :)
Hi,
I dont pass or blend in as a woman or a female no meds will change that & i knew this years ago,
I accepted my self 55 years ago i was then & am now still the same a intersexed woman. im accepted get on very well with women joined women only groups a member of many others .
Have many friends, have a life with in our community, do things with others .
So if thats not being accepted i have no idear what is, every one knows who i am background included,
I can go over seas & be accepted as well. so it sure is not my looks that count . you can quess what makes the difference.
So do i ...need ... to look right or look like a female or a woman to be accepted as one, to much importance is placed on the ...look... or the ...passablity ... & i have nether. so quess again what does it take to be accepted, have a rethink about the ? to find the answer, & maybe youll see where im going with this,
maybe iv got 65 years & of those 48 as a percived male yet was i really only because people wonted to see it there way yet a few saw things differently they saw a female. & that was in the 60's, .
So what you see is not allways whats really there on the out side. get to know the person & see the real who it is.
In my case a intersexed / woman.
& even with my short coming's Im one Happy Contented ...Woman...
...noeleena...
Quote from: 8888 on September 15, 2012, 10:52:12 AM
Well the differences in gender are slightly more blurred as you get older.
Yes, they do blur with age.
QuoteMen age better than women
I wouldn't say so. Balding, pot belly, heavy wrinkles...
Quoteand I like to think MTFs also do
Some do, some don't. I have a post op MTF friend who also had FFS with dr O some 12 years ago and her FFS face is slowly going masculine again...with aging.
QuoteI have a cis-frind who's clocked two women in the past in front of me, this guy doesn't know I'm trans and has no affiliation with any of the LGBT community. The girls he clocked passed way better than I could :(
Straight/bi cismen just
sense it when one is MTF............whether for years or decades on HRT or post srs/ffs or whatever.
If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.
It's like an aura.
Straight and bi men 'sexualize' everything that's feminine....so upon 'closer inspection' they'll see a (slightly) bigger head, a thicker neck, broader shoulders, a larger trunk etcetc than a ciswoman has.
Sometimes they see cheekimplants/augmented/lips/breasts which altogether or individually scream: MTF!!
Being 100% passable and going stealth shouldn't be your first priority; that's only for a very, very few MTF.
Just try to be yourself and I fully agree with Noeleena's post.
Oh, btw: I've heard many, many (cis) people after vacationing in Thailand say that Thai MTF are soooooo feminine, they
really couldn't tell.
Well, if they couldn't tell they would have seen ciswomen eh?
I have been on HRT less than a year. I am 49 and 5'8" in height (6ft in heels) and I still have to shave every day because electrolysis is a slow process. My hairline is too high.
Yesterday I stood in a queue for the ladies toilets. I knew none of the women in the queue. I am 100% positive they were not just being polite to humour me.
What many people forget is that not all women are beauty queens. There are a lot of fat women, a lot of ugly women, a lot of women with mannish features, a lot of women have dreadful skin, acne or spots. I am no beauty but there are women out there who look way, way uglier and more manly than me.
I live 24/7 as female. I work hard on my voice (this is a BIG factor in acceptance). I work hard at ditching my male mannerisms, but most of all I am confident in myself. I know this is right and I no longer accept any form of masculine role. I demand acceptance as a woman because that is what I am.
It works for me and I cannot wait to see what another 4 or 5 years of HRT does to me. This is a slow process.
Quote from: Dahlia on September 16, 2012, 05:47:14 AMStraight/bi cismen just sense it when one is MTF............whether for years or decades on HRT or post srs/ffs or whatever.
If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.
I feel that that statement is simply wrong. If it was right there would be a riot every time I go to the ladies' loo, or the ladies' changing rooms. Too many strangers include me in womens' activities - people who do not know me. Men also treat me very differently now. They never used to open doors for me...
Quote from: brc on September 16, 2012, 05:54:13 AM
I demand acceptance as a woman because that is what I am.
Oh.....hmmmm..that doesn't sound too relaxed. Demanding won't help...letting it come in time perhaps will.
It sounds a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor demanding to be seen as a young beauty.
Quote from: Dahlia on September 16, 2012, 05:47:14 AM
Straight and bi men 'sexualize' everything that's feminine....so upon 'closer inspection' they'll see a (slightly) bigger head, a thicker neck, broader shoulders, a larger trunk etcetc than a ciswoman has.
It's a bit of uncanny valley effect, like when you see a hyperrealist robot or CGI. There is a small something that does not fin in the picture, but it is really hard to find what is, and will tend to create an uneasy feeling.
I don't really care, If I am OK with myself. I've never been Mr Universe. I'll try to fix everything I can, and maybe it can be Ok enough. For every perfect girl I see I can find 5 normal, and... I'm not going to lie, but I'd look a lot slimmer than most of the cis I usually see on my day to day. I'm puttin all the FFS budget I can, but it is more for myself than passing.
But I guess I am one of those special cases, no interest on hiding my past (At 29 it is too late for that), I like the mixture of facial fatures... And I don't have a lot of hopes in developing a decent voice with such a busted throat.
Quote from: Dahlia on September 16, 2012, 06:07:07 AM
Oh.....hmmmm..that doesn't sound too relaxed. Demanding won't help...letting it come in time perhaps will.
It sounds a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor demanding to be seen as a young beauty.
I do not mean that I thump the counter and shout
"I'm a woman dammit!". I mean that if anyone does challenge me or enquire, I refuse to accept the role of being categorised as some sort of fake. I correct them and explain. I attempt to educate them but I will not accept that I am playing some sort of game or that I am some sort of sex pervert.
Quote from: Dahlia on September 16, 2012, 05:47:14 AM
If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.
It's like an aura.
Oh, btw: I've heard many, many (cis) people after vacationing in Thailand say that Thai MTF are soooooo feminine, they really couldn't tell.
Well, if they couldn't tell they would have seen ciswomen eh?
It is my personal experience that "aura" has little or no effect on people's perceptions of my sex. In almost all circumstances, people don't "other" me, though I will note that my Adam's apple is a bit of a clue sometimes. However, as I am fairly short, most people look down on me and therefore don't see it, so it's not as big of a deal as one might think. To further the point, I have spoken with many people, and then revealed my trans status, and they say they wouldn't have known. Sometimes things get weird beyond that point, but it's mostly okay.
Also, as for the Thai women thing, isn't it possible that the reason someone could tell is because they were advertising their trans status in some way? Like their location, a symbol they're wearing, or their voice which, if perfected, would have created a flawless presentation? Or perhaps a Thai trans woman just
told the person they're trans? There are a number of ways to find out someone is trans that don't involve being able to tell by their appearance or "aura".
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on September 16, 2012, 06:22:51 AM
Also, as for the Thai women thing, isn't it possible that the reason someone could tell is because they were advertising their trans status in some way? Like their location, a symbol they're wearing, or their voice which, if perfected, would have created a flawless presentation? Or perhaps a Thai trans woman just told the person they're trans? There are a number of ways to find out someone is trans that don't involve being able to tell by their appearance or "aura".
No, they were talking about Thai MTF in general, when they saw them as waitresses, hairdressers, checkout girls etc
When I was in Thailand with my husband this summer there were many my husband clocked, but equally many he didn't clock even when he talked to them. I clocked them though and they me. Whenever I'm in Thailand I just assume all Thai people clock me, but then our driver asks us if we have kids and when we tell him we don't he suggests my husband go to the doctor to have his sperm checked. I was very surprised when he said that.
In most cases I find it is almost impossible to tell if people clock me or not, I don't think it happens a lot but for the most part I've really stopped caring. There are a few situations I get really nervous about it though. The other day when I was riding the subway I was sitting there by myself enjoying the ride while surfing the net on my phone when 50 or 60 thirteen year old kids came rushing in at on of the stops. They were literally crawling over me while eating ice cream (a lot of them had a bucket of B&J in their hands), yelling and screaming, doing back flips and otherwise high-fivin' each other. This went on for like 10-15 minutes before they got off and I was so afraid one of them would clock me and make a huge fuzz about but luckily non of them did. My confidence was really good afterwards though.
I don't think cis-men generally have any super-clocking-powers though. ->-bleeped-<-s and trans-fans are better at it though. Also it seems that middle-eastern and African men are better at clocking me than the native los hombres blancos ;-)
Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AM
In most cases I find it is almost impossible to tell if people clock me or not, I don't think it happens a lot but for the most part I've really stopped caring.
I have also reached that position.
Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AMI don't think cis-men generally have any super-clocking-powers though.
I agree - most people neither see nor care what is around them. I do think that there are some people on the forum who seem determined to put a black cloud around any silver lining they come across.
Quote from: MariaMx on September 16, 2012, 07:29:34 AM->-bleeped-<-s and trans-fans are better at it though. Also it seems that middle-eastern and African men are better at clocking me than the native los hombres blancos
I stay away from both groups as they tend to be highly religious christians or muslims and for whatever reason trans and religion do not seem to mix well.
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).
The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).
The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.
I agree, and idk, kinda disagree too from my experiences. On one hand, the only guy that has ever (admitted to) clocking me was a bisexual guy who leaned more towards gay than straight. He's been around LOTS of transsexuals in the past, and even said "at first I would have NEVER known when you past me, but then I started paying attention and something... idk what... set me off!" He was fine about it though.
On the other hand I can't count how many times I've shocked people at the local gay bar. The first time I came out there, I was drowned in questions and even had them questioning my cis female friend if she was trans! I have quite a few gay friends that have said to me or to friends of mine "I would have never known!!"
Question:
If you had SRS and BA now... would THAT make any difference?
I understand "inability to pass" = NO RLE... right?
Axélle
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).
The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.
Other than other MtFs, of course?
Funny that someone brought up aura as I have worked with women here in the Bay Area that strike me as having an aura that I read as non-cisgender while NOTHING in their phsicla make-up clocks as anything as cis. I can't explain it. It is something metaphysical. I remember walking up Powell Street and my radar went up and spotted someone walking down the street a block away when this woman passed me there was nothing that most people would "clock." But I was convinced she was not cis by her gait.
People do not "go around trying to clock MtFs" (actually in the Bay Area, there are people who do that) but gender is the first thing we make our mind up about a person, then usually race.
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
I actually think gay men are the best at "clocking" a trans person. They ALWAYS seem to know, I put it down to the fact that they can be hyper critical and aware of gender differences (the same way they always know another guy is gay).
The advantage of having a gay man know you're trans though, is that as long as they're not "shady", they won't out you. It's sort of a respect thing.
Hum, my gay male favoured nurse at the LGBT "OUT" group in my town, I saw him the other day for blood test (knows my history...) says: "I never seen you other than a woman..." he has no reason to butter me up - I think.
Would he OUT me? You're right; I really could not imagine THAT :)
And in any case out me as a woman with a history... at least not a former 'street-corner-clam' and HIV positive, hum. (Their main business...)
Axélle
PS: other MtFs?!... many would out you just to give a booming HELLO! in a shop...
Not soooo good, eh.
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?
Everyone is assuming that if someone is "clocked", that the person is "MTF"...but the only way to know for sure is to ask (except in serious "does-not-pass" cases).
I accept myself however I look now, or how I'll look in the future. But, be aware that our own perception is skewed to criticism. For example, I always thought my hands were large and mannish...even though several people have told me that I have small hands. This past weekend I met a trans-woman (she told me so) who passed very well, and had small hands...we put our hands up to compare, and mine were the same size as hers.
So now I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.
:angel:
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
So now I have to work on my own self-criticism "voice", and tell it to STFU.
If you find how, Let me know. Mine is like one of those two little angel and devil cartoon things, always bickering with desire vs Common Sense.
I used to worry about the hands things, but I found one thing that helps: Going to the gym. Seen guys with gigantic feet and hands makes me feel like I got lucky. I was worried about having short fingers, but after looking at my last photo, they are not that bad. (yeah (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BuPvuE6QLzE/UFBOI6deaOI/AAAAAAAABd0/s5rYtXF--w4/s600/2012+10%3A56%3A00.jpg)).
Quote....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?
I know of a few persons, that every time they see a photo of a girl they will say
"she has a "trap" face" at the slightest faction.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?
Everyone is assuming that if someone is "clocked", that the person is "MTF"...but the only way to know for sure is to ask (except in serious "does-not-pass" cases).
I am certainly not assuming that and I would never, ever ask someone whose aura read non-cis to me if they were "trans" or not. That said, I do trust my instincts and intuition but, of course, do not claim to be infallible. I have had a few people who, after knowing me for awhile and probably picking up on my not "perfect" voice ask me if I was "trans," I look at them as if there were crazy, and tell them no and then they accept it and apologize profusely. (One has to wonder about the type of person who would ask a question like that!)
Although do not claim to be a professional philosopher, I can say without equivocation (see Josiah Royce) that how people perceive another person is wholly the perception of the person doing the perceiving and, in all cases, different from how the person being perceived feels about themselves. Royce's earlier philosophy says the only person that knows the "real truth" is the Absolute (God) Later, Royce changed his view to state that truth is what most people think it is. (This is a huge oversimplification, of course) So according to this theory, if most people see us as women, that is what we are. OTOH if most people see us as men...
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?
I think this makes a good point. If people are going to be professional clockers, i.e. clocking tools, then they're going to have a range of accuracy of successful clocks per person (which would be difficult to verify as noted). A measurement (even though it's more of a basis of selection) has to be reproducible and repeatable. Since the varying degrees of masculinity/femininity are ambiguous, the combinations of features are innumerable, and the environment in which someone was clocked is variable, I think to truly "clock" someone is a bold statement (unless you can point out characteristics which are mutually agreed on by whatever party).
Don't get me wrong though, I do think people have varying levels of ability to do it. But I'm just uncomfortable with the overall concept.
I have only clocked one person, but...
Sheeesh, body language. I so much wanted to tell her "stop doing that, you are giving yourself away". I've been avoiding the most manly patterns for a long time when it comes to moving or doing certain actions (Never wondered why I wanted to do more feminine gestures), and that one was like waving a giant red flag. I could have overlooked the height or build, but not doing those things.
I'm surprised when people say they haven't met an mtf, I feel like I see them pretty often (not including in "those" neighborhoods at night).
I keep telling myself there must be a point of satisfaction. But I can't get over being ugly, old, and overweight.
Before accepting myself, and finally coming out this spring and summer, I guess I clocked some MTF's with admirable curriosity. I know that sounds bad, but I'm going to be clocked someday also. Anyway, I was always facinated by how those women managed in public, and at the same time I was embarassed to have possibly invaded their privacy. With that said, it seems cis and transwomen have very parallel but vastly different experiences while struggling for an identity and appearance to show who they are inside. Almost every girl I knew in college had dramatically changed by the time they graduated. And excluding psychology and physiology, I think the same could be said for any MTF going through RLE and transition over a four year period.
I occasionally see two girls at a local grocery store, and neither one could pass four years ago. But when I notice them now I'm amazed at the changes. One has become very feminine (not a movie star, just another woman), and the other seems to have taken some masculine manerisms and included them in her butch demeanor and appearance. Had I not seen either of these women before I honestly don't think I'd notice them today. I don't know, maybe it's a little wierd of me to have subconciously tracked how they changed.
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 12:22:26 PM
I'm surprised when people say they haven't met an mtf, I feel like I see them pretty often (not including in "those" neighborhoods at night).
Best way to not get clocked is to stay out of so-called GLBTI friendly neighborhoods where they make it a sport clocking each other. Most cis types don't hang out in those environs and don't clock others because it's (1) Rude (2) They have more important things to do with their time. (3) because of the busyness of their own lives they don't pay attention. (4) They don't give a hoot if someone wants to look strange, weird, or different from the norm.
Quote from: Shantel on September 16, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
Best way to not get clocked is to stay out of so-called GLBTI friendly neighborhoods where they make it a sport clocking each other. Most cis types don't hang out in those environs and don't clock others because it's (1) Rude (2) They have more important things to do with their time. (3) because of the busyness of their own lives they don't pay attention. (4) They don't give a hoot if someone wants to look strange, weird, or different from the norm.
O.o I don't stay strictly in lgbt areas, I mean in school or just around some neighborhoods (hunts point anyone?).
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 16, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
....I wonder how many of the "clocked" MTF women were actually cis-women?
It doesn't matter whether they're cis or trans, clocking is clocking. If you were to ask a cis person whether they are transgender, they would probably be offended.
Quote from: Bella on September 16, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!
lol no. I am that sullen though :P.
Quote from: Bella on September 16, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!
And I had been wondering the same thing for days...
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 01:53:36 PM
Quote from: Bella on September 16, 2012, 01:40:34 PM
Is that you on your photo??? If so, you're beautiful!!!
lol no. I am that sullen though :P.
Ahh, shucks. Hope has been dashed yet again. ;)
Quote from: Slightly Interested on September 16, 2012, 12:00:44 PM
I think this makes a good point. If people are going to be professional clockers, i.e. clocking tools, then they're going to have a range of accuracy of successful clocks per person (which would be difficult to verify as noted). A measurement (even though it's more of a basis of selection) has to be reproducible and repeatable. Since the varying degrees of masculinity/femininity are ambiguous, the combinations of features are innumerable, and the environment in which someone was clocked is variable, I think to truly "clock" someone is a bold statement (unless you can point out characteristics which are mutually agreed on by whatever party).
Don't get me wrong though, I do think people have varying levels of ability to do it. But I'm just uncomfortable with the overall concept.
We need to discern between clocking and gendering. "Clocking" has a connotation of an overt act whereas gendering is something we unconsciously do dozens of times a day. Again, our perception of people is
ALWAYS wrong to some extent. For instance, my African-American house-mate's son says he is constantly being read as a Mexican-American. Whether it is gender or something else, there will always be something people will get wrong. But the main point is that others perception of who we are is always wrong.
Always. So the people that you call professional clockers--whatever that is--are always wrong even if they guess right as far as birth sex is concerned.
Although I do not agree with most of Royce's philosophy, I believe his views on objective reality are spot on.
QuoteRealism, so defined, introduces a radical metaphysical dualism. Between my ideas, and a sphere of being that by definition exists completely independent of those ideas, there is a gap that cannot be bridged. Realism posits an objective realm that is utterly independent and hence, strictly speaking, is utterly meaningless to thought.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/royce/
(http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/royce/)
Dear 8888,
I started the so called RLE two years ago, and I do not know if I pass or get cloaked or aured or what ever other BS radar is out there, AND I DO NOT CARE TO KNOW.
I live every day taking care of my kids and doing my two jobs like any professional woman does, with days full of minor irritations, hopes, dreams, and a few triumphs.
The thought of "pass or not pass," does not even cross my mind, I just go about my business proud and confident.
So, if I can give you a tip, it is to just release your inner female and be yourself!
Pecky,
You're a can-do chickster!
Quote from: Shantel on September 16, 2012, 06:01:07 PM
Pecky,
You're a can-do chickster!
Thank you Honey! Love your Eye for detail
sometimes it just doesn't matter if you pass or not.
despite living and going out in boy mode I am slowly changing things to a more andro/girly thing with my clothing probably being the last thing to change -
I can't say its not making me unhappy being in boy mode but it does make me happy knowing what I am and what I want to be.
and tbh after a few years it wouldn't matter to me what other people say or think about me. - I simply wouldn't care unless it endangered the lives of my loved ones.
This thread was making me deeply depressed and reinforcing all the fears that - apart from all the other reasons, to do with my love and responsibilities for other people - keep me from beginning my transition. But then I began to wonder: how much of the ability to transition is affected by the simple, basic unfairnesses of life.
For example, it really, really helps to transition as young as possible, preferably before puberty is complete, so that one has never possessed a mature male body, or lived in a man's role.
It really helps to be pretty to begin with, or handsome, which actually turns out to be the same thing. Handsome men, with clean, regular, symmetrical features make prettier women - Dr Christine McGinn is a great example of this.
And money is surely a huge, huge help. If you can pay tens of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros for FFS, BA, hair transplants, really good laser/electrolysis, clothes, assistance with voice, movement, styling, make-up, etc, that has to make a massive difference. I was working out the cost of a real top-of-the-line transition and I think it's a minimum £100,000/$150,000, possibly a lot more ... and who the hell can afford that?
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:40:43 AM
This thread was making me deeply depressed and reinforcing all the fears that - apart from all the other reasons, to do with my love and responsibilities for other people - keep me from beginning my transition. But then I began to wonder: how much of the ability to transition is affected by the simple, basic unfairnesses of life.
OK - let us redress the balance. At least you CAN transition. At any earlier point in human history this was not an option.
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:40:43 AMFor example, it really, really helps to transition as young as possible, preferably before puberty is complete, so that one has never possessed a mature male body, or lived in a man's role.
True. It
helps but that is all it does. It is not a showstopper. I am 49.
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:40:43 AMIt really helps to be pretty to begin with, or handsome, which actually turns out to be the same thing. Handsome men, with clean, regular, symmetrical features make prettier women - Dr Christine McGinn is a great example of this.
Well, it depends on what you wish to achieve. Do you want to be a woman or a model? A huge percentage of the female population is not that attractive or pretty. Nonetheless they seem to get through life.
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:40:43 AMAnd money is surely a huge, huge help. If you can pay tens of thousands of pounds/dollars/euros for FFS, BA, hair transplants, really good laser/electrolysis, clothes, assistance with voice, movement, styling, make-up, etc, that has to make a massive difference. I was working out the cost of a real top-of-the-line transition and I think it's a minimum £100,000/$150,000, possibly a lot more ... and who the hell can afford that?
True enough, but is all that needed? I have spent nearly nothing on my transition to date - maybe £1000 over two years? I will not consider FFS or BA until I am on hormones at least 3 years and maybe 5 years to let the hormones have a good run at changing me. Clothes and shoes? I stopped buying male ones and I now buy female ones but i have to buy clothing anyway. Make up is cheap. Voice is inexpensive compared to FFS and so on. SRS does not happen until the end of the process and nobody will ever check my sex by asking me to drop my pants.
I do not need a
'top-of-the-line transition'. I just need to transition and I have learned that having the right chemicals in my body and brain and having my body change its shape is what I really need. As long as I look and act female enough to be treated as female socially then I do not much care about anything else. The rest is window-dressing as far as I am concerned.
I guess all I was saying is that transition and passing are just like anything else in life. There are certain basic unfairnesses built-in ... and, as you say, one has to tailor ones expectations accordingly. All three factors I listed - youth, beauty and money - apply just as much to cis-women. (Much more than they do to men, BTW). Of course, one can't get any younger ... but nice clothes, a good haircut, a personal trainer, great diet, etc make a massive difference to a woman and are immediately visible whenever she earns or marries money ... and I guess the same must apply to MtFs.
PS:
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 06:57:26 AM
OK - let us redress the balance. At least you CAN transition. At any earlier point in human history this was not an option.
True! :)
Quote from: peky on September 16, 2012, 05:54:40 PM
So, if I can give you a tip, it is to just release your inner female and be yourself!
Sounds like something you'd hear on LP.
If it was as simple as this there wouldn't be any "transitioning" - No HRT, no voice change, same hair, same clothes, I mean it's not like I hide under a "male" character when around people anyway, there really is no "female" inside I just do what I do without putting on an act which naturally means being interpreted as a man because of the way I look.
So you could say I'm already "being myself", but it doesn't exactly make me feel good.
Quote from: 8888 on September 17, 2012, 07:16:53 AM
Sounds like something you'd hear on LP.
If it was as simple as this there wouldn't be any "transitioning" - No HRT, no voice change, same hair, same clothes, I mean it's not like I hide under a "male" character when around people anyway, there really is no "female" inside I just do what I do without putting on an act which naturally means being interpreted as a man because of the way I look.
So you could say I'm already "being myself", but it doesn't exactly make me feel good.
I know it sounds odd to say it is as simple as that, but it really can be that simple. Peky has a point. You can do the voice, change the clothes, restyle the hair, etc, but it is a lot of effort. And then one day you find that something inside changes and you can run about with little or no make up, jeans and a T-shirt and people start treating you as female. It really is some sort of internal acceptance - when you feel that there is no going back - not ever! There is only a female path ahead, there are no other options. Once you fully accept and make peace with that destiny something changes and so does everyone else.
It is weird, incomprehensible and liberating, all at the same time.
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 07:11:58 AM
... but nice clothes, a good haircut,
Anyone can do this, male or female. It need not be expensive
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 07:11:58 AMa personal trainer
Whatever for?
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 07:11:58 AMgreat diet
It actually costs less to eat well than it does to eat junk food. I can feed a family of four with good food for less than the price of one 'meal' at McDonalds.
The only real expenses an MTF has that a 'normal' person does not is the cost of hormones, SRS and (for some) FFS or BA. Many convince themselves that they need FFS and BA when they do not, but cis-women are not much different. We have all seen GGs get boob jobs who never needed it done. Even SRS is optional since it will make no difference to how others see you.
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 06:57:26 AM
Well, it depends on what you wish to achieve. Do you want to be a woman or a model? A huge percentage of the female population is not that attractive or pretty. Nonetheless they seem to get through life.
This is the best question for everyone with self doubts. Honestly, there are so many truly homely and sometimes mannish looking cis women in any given place on any given day that it's just a wonder how they manage, but they do! Being a woman isn't about looks, clothing, hair, boobs or vagina's. One of my favorite lady friends is a short-round who walks like a guy kicking dirt clods on a farm, but she is a swell woman with a great sense of humor and I couldn't possibly see her as anything but a full blown woman. A really good exercise is to go the the mall and get a seat at the coffee stand and observe women for about an hour. Then throw the Victoria's Secret catalogs away, those women are all teens and early twenties who have been totally photo shopped and air brushed. Real women don't look like that!
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 07:37:10 AM
It really is some sort of internal acceptance - when you feel that there is no going back - not ever!
I was thinking about this exact phenomenon this morning and it occurred to me that it's a bit like someone converting their religion.
Imagine a girl who's raised in Christian family. She marries a Jewish guy. His family are desperate for her to convert to Judaism, because her kids can't be Jewish unless she is, too. She loves her man. She wants to please his family and she's not a particularly committed Christian (maybe she's not very religious at all) so she agrees to convert.
As the process begins, she's a Christian becoming a Jew.
Then she's a Jewish convert who used to be Christian.
Then time goes by. She has kids. The family celebrate Jewish religious ceremonies and feast-days. All her new family welcome her in and the women treat her as one of their own. People who don't know her just assume she must be Jewish. Her son has his bar-mitzvah. Just by osmosis she starts seeing the world from a different perspective, through the lens of new experience.
And then, one day she realises that she's not a Jew-who-used-to-be-a-Christian. She's Jewish, plain and simple.
Kind of a similar thing ...
PS: Re: 'personal trainer - what for?' ... I just cite that as one example of something affluent cis-women pay for that affects their appearance. I'm not suggesting it's necessary, in any serious, moral sense. But that, along with all the other things I've listed absolutely does have an affect on cis-women's appearance. The entire multi-billion fashion/cosmetics/diet industry depends on the perception that you can buy good looks (and through them happiness, popularity, a better partner, etc) ... Again, I'm not making any moral comment as to the value of that system. But it absolutely exists and, just as drugs wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar business if they didn't work at all, so the business of making women prettier persists because it's not entirely ineffective. Why would it not work for transwomen, too?
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 08:09:47 AM
so the business of making women prettier persists because it's not entirely ineffective. Why would it not work for transwomen, too?
Oh it does work for transwomen too, but a huge amount of the beauty business is based on
hope. Time after time, tests have shown that things like expensive moisturiser costing £100 per tiny tub is no better than a £3 bottle in the supermarket. Some of them are no more effective than butter!
Once you pay more than about £5 or $5 for things like lipstick, mascara, and so forth then you are wasting your money. Foundation is an exception but even the good ones cost less than £10.
It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:19:53 AM
.......It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.
That's why I'm an atheist..
Quote from: Felicitá on September 17, 2012, 08:25:46 AM
That's why I'm an atheist..
Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:29:34 AM
Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....
I guess the reasoning would be that if God existed, the least She could do would be give us a decent face-cream ...
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:29:34 AM
Because of the beauty industry? That is a first....
Sorry, mine was a silly quip, but
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:19:53 AM
It is a huge industry but most of its success is based on offering hope rather than results.
I can think of many other industries that are based purely on hope. Hope is a very powerful motivator.
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
I guess the reasoning would be that if God existed, the least She could do would be give us a decent face-cream ...
God has a gender? News to me :D
A personal trainer? Honey - youtube and google are free (With internet access of course)! Girls who go that far are over dramatizing things and end up being the people most people make fun of when they are on those reality shows.
Yes transition is hard, it's expensive, it's HUGE in scope compared to the things 95% of the people on this earth (at least) have to put up with. BUT... it's doable to way more people than some are giving credit for. Seriously yall, we are all more educated than most people on the difference of gender just due to the fact we live through what we do. Yes we are gonna clock, but we also pay attention way more than most people. Do you think the girl you pass in the supermarket is really thinking to herself "IS THAT A GUY OR A GIRL!" when she passes everybody, or is she going "OK I need 2 things of strawberry, some chocolate, some batteries..." ....
She's thinking more about what shes gonna do with the strawberries, chocolate, and batteries than she is trying to clock you!
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 17, 2012, 10:11:36 AM
God has a gender? News to me :D
Well, if we believe Kevin Smith in Dogma...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.whicdn.com%2Fimages%2F449805%2F20090318132421_thumb.jpg&hash=337d792fa9948e98c32d6fab8ae16de95cdc2344)
Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 17, 2012, 10:15:10 AM
Well, if we believe Kevin Smith in Dogma...
Oh yes, loved that film.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 17, 2012, 10:11:36 AM
She's thinking more about what shes gonna do with the strawberries, chocolate, and batteries than she is trying to clock you!
OK - I give in. What
is she going to do with strawberries, chocolate and batteries? And can you describe on here without getting banned?
>:-)
Passing is about confidence not looks. A simple walk through your local shopping mall will show that there are plenty of women out there with questionable looks. A walk thought Telford town centre usually gives me confidenct that I'm doing not too bad!
Also, transition is hard work. Don't sit there and expect hormones to do all the work. You need to look after your weight and skin. You need a regular beauty regime and if professional help is offered, do not turn it down.
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 11:41:34 AM
OK - I give in. What is she going to do with strawberries, chocolate and batteries? And can you describe on here without getting banned?
>:-)
She's going to make chocolate covered strawberries and her remote control has no batteries. Why would that get me banned? ???
For those that think almost every trans woman is clockable... go ahead and google images "pixie cut" ... I'm sure you'll "clock" a ton of people
a) did not complete puberty, b) some kind of genetic magic, c) facial surgery. Or as Carlita put it: youth, beauty, money. Everyone I've met who is perfectly passable falls into at least one of those three categories. Life is brutal sometimes. :(
Quote from: Sarah7 on September 18, 2012, 10:59:06 PM
a) did not complete puberty, b) some kind of genetic magic, c) facial surgery. Or as Carlita put it: youth, beauty, money. Everyone I've met who is perfectly passable falls into at least one of those three categories. Life is brutal sometimes. :(
I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 18, 2012, 11:56:17 PM
I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.
slightly to mostly passable maybe, but sarah7 is talking about those who are the ones where no one would ever guess...
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 18, 2012, 11:56:17 PM
I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.
Oh, I think that's definitely true, being passable is not that impossible. Though I'd add that voice is kind of a serious thing.
But I think there is a gap between the people who are unclockable and the people who are close and that has a lot to do with certain kinds of privilege. At least that's been my own experience. I fall into 2/3 of those categories.
Quote from: Ave on September 19, 2012, 12:02:11 AM
slightly to mostly passable maybe, but sarah7 is talking about those who are the ones where no one would ever guess...
That.
Quote from: Sarah7 on September 19, 2012, 12:03:30 AM
Oh, I think that's definitely true, being passable is not that impossible. Though I'd add that voice is kind of a serious thing.
But I think there is a gap between the people who are unclockable and the people who are close and that has a lot to do with certain kinds of privilege. At least that's been my own experience. I fall into 2/3 of those categories.
That.
I defintely agree about the privelige thing (and as much as my PC side hates to admit this, I've always had money for hormones since I was young and enough for vanity operations *albeit through sketchy methods*) although with transsexuals you can either come from a well off open minded family, or a rather poor close-minded one (if you're in the unclockable group *IMHO*).
In Scenario 1 (well-off open minded parents) you come out as trans, they take you to therapy, put you on blockers and TA DA! you're passable and unclockable.
In Scenario 2 you come from a disenfranchised close-minded family (it doesn't matter if you come out here, if you're flamboyant enough they WILL know) and you get kicked out at an early age. These tgirls do a lot of err...unpleasant things, but they get their *STREET* hormones early and before puberty (this could acgtually be a plus since they start estrogen earlier than even those on blockers and so they are shorter and petite *assuming they take estrogen at high enough dosages to cap bone growth*). Some even get medical grade silicone injection *not advised as we all know* and they turn out great and flawless with large breasts and hips.
If they're lucky.
I know a lot of scenario 1 and scenario 2 girls in the "unclockable" group.
Guess which group has members that die more often? True, you die a pretty young ->-bleeped-<-.
But a pretty corpse is still a corpse.
I just realized I made this thread heavy.
I'm a gay, what can I say, we have a flair for the dramatic.
I guess I can kind of agree with that... but idk how many people on this planet are gonna study features that distinguish the passable from the unclockable. Also, most of the people that are gonna clock the very very passable girls are the ones in the know of transsexuality and have been exposed to it quite a bit (who are mostly much more tolerant / accepting) ... making it pretty moot to being clocked :)
Maybe "inability" is not exactly the right word for me... but "reality checks" keep happening; sure do happen.
I notice plenty of female looks of late - no male looks however... I keep telling myself it's an age thing (...unless I dress to the Ts... looks like being 'easy'?)
Those female looks need to be 'factored in' because as someone else mentioned before, women ALWAYS check out other women... and it MAY just be THAT - yet it may be a question of confusing them?
Take my age, then not any of the more usual big bottom curves coming with most females at a certain age, say past 50... or otherwise often a sort of unfit frailty... none that I wish to have, none that I project, none that is me.
So, given ones state of hormones = more or less secure in one's skin... add those female looks... it can just get a bit much at times. Do super handsome dudes get those sort of stares? No idea actually, but could well be...
At more 'secure days' (good hair days?) I just have to stop giggling; wiping a smirk of my face about all what appears silly attention. And quite bloody open attention/looks/semi-stares they are.
So that's my present take...
It STILL leaves me with the question (if I care to ask it...) do I pass - or don't I pass?
See what I mean...
Axélle
Quote from: Abracadabra on September 19, 2012, 01:53:51 AM
Maybe "inability" is not exactly the right word for me... but "reality checks" keep happening; sure do happen.
I notice plenty of female looks of late - no male looks however... I keep telling myself it's an age thing (...unless I dress to the Ts... looks like being 'easy'?)
Those female looks need to be 'factored in' because as someone else mentioned before, women ALWAYS check out other women... and it MAY just be THAT - yet it may be a question of confusing them?
Take my age, then not any of the more usual big bottom curves coming with most females at a certain age, say past 50... or otherwise often a sort of unfit frailty... none that I wish to have, none that I project, none that is me.
So, given ones state of hormones = more or less secure in one's skin... add those female looks... it can just get a bit much at times. Do super handsome dudes get those sort of stares? No idea actually, but could well be...
At more 'secure days' (good hair days?) I just have to stop giggling; wiping a smirk of my face about all what appears silly attention. And quite bloody open attention/looks/semi-stares they are.
So that's my present take...
It STILL leaves me with the question (if I care to ask it...) do I pass - or don't I pass?
See what I mean...
Axélle
you pass ^^. You have a very icy and exotic look about you.
Quote from: Ave on September 19, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
you pass ^^. You have a very icy and exotic look about you.
Thanks for the reality check... no wonder...
Maybe years in the world of business rubbed off?
Food for thought before getting depressed... on a 'bad hair day' :)
Exotic, icy, hum...
Axélle 8)
Personally I feel the combination of masculine face and feminine voice is kinda rediculous.
When I'm around people I always make sure that my voice is deep and masculine so as to match my appearance. I've seen it on youtube, a masculine faced transgender woman speaking with a very high pitched feminine voice, threw me off a little as subconciously I wasn't expecting it - this is the same way people would feel if I spoke to them in real life with a feminine voice.
Masculine man + high pitched voice = weak, submissive, low T, didn't go through puperty correctly
Feminine man + low pitched voice = hot, dominant, good leader, fully grown man who knows how to take care of himself
As for hair, some face shapes simply do not look good with long hair.
Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AM
Personally I feel the combination of masculine face and feminine voice is kinda rediculous.
True. So is the combination of feminine appearance and masculine voice. Both need to match.
Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMWhen I'm around people I always make sure that my voice is deep and masculine so as to match my appearance. I've seen it on youtube, a masculine faced transgender woman speaking with a very high pitched feminine voice,
And I have seen the opposite on youtube - a passable MTF who has a deep masucline voice. She passes until she opens her mouth.
Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMthrew me off a little as subconciously I wasn't expecting it - this is the same way people would feel if I spoke to them in real life with a feminine voice.
Now you are projecting what
you think onto others. They may not think as you do.
I am not brilliantly passable, I am tall for a woman so I speak with a lower tone than the female average - mine is 180Hz, the female average is about 221Hz - but my pitch is still way above the male voice down at 110Hz and my intonation is female and so is my resonance.
Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMMasculine man + high pitched voice = weak, submissive, low T, didn't go through puperty correctly
Feminine man + low pitched voice = hot, dominant, good leader, fully grown man who knows how to take care of himself
What are these? Your opinions of how people should be?
Look, have the voice you want but remember this - if you do not give OTHER people what THEY expect then they will not treat you as you wish. You might think your fem voice is too high pitched because you are used to your male voice, and I certainly went through that stage but I got used to my new tone and now I hate going back to my old one. If you want to pass you have to supply people what they expect to make them treat you correctly. They will not put in any effort on their part - people are lazy - so we, the transfolk - have to do all the work
In short the upshot is this
- if you look non-mascuilne and have what OTHER people consider a female voice you will pass
- if you look non-mascuilne and have what OTHER people consider a male voice you will not pass
Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AM
As for hair, some face shapes simply do not look good with long hair.
Indeed. Which is why my hair is bobbed. Long hair makes my face look too somber.
"if you look non-mascuilne and have what OTHER people consider a female voice you will pass"
I'd go much further than this
Many years ago I went to a TV do at a hotel. Wives and partners were also there. I was talking to someone and one of the wives was talking within earshot. We were drawn into the conversation and chatted, for a good hour, myself and three other t girls and the woman.
The woman got up and said she was heading off for bed, as she did so she giggled and suddenly for a millisecond, the voice failed and we realised she was going to bed on her own. As one, our jaws hit the floor.
We had been talking to probably the least passable girl in the room (she was probably in her seventies, had no make up on ,about two inches of hair was showing under her wig which had slipped back) and we had been totally taken in, but the voice COULDN'T have been a mans.
voice is everything
As a frequent traveler to Thailand (unrelated to SRS lol), as well as other cultures such as India where third sex people are accepted, passable and unpassable becomes like trying to spot a toupee: you never see all the passable ones because, well, they've passed! And if you clock them, by definition, they don't. So every Tgirl you see is by definition unpassable. No?
Well, there is power in how you present; power in the right dress for the occasion, simply POWER in feeling good about yourself.
If I come across as somewhat icy and exotic, voice needs to fit to what you present – represent i.e. YOURSELF.
If I get serious my voice tends to go lower, as it does with a lot of women - and more so in power positions. A girly voice just will not cut it, not in the board room, not if you need to be taken real serious.
I think in their anxiety, quite a lot of ts-females keep, and stick to a too high pitched unreal, unsuitable voice. This works against us!
In follow-up to my earlier post... today I dressed sassy - showed a LOT of naked leg.
It was rather interesting to see how different one THEN is perceived.
Women all of a sudden looked now only surreptitiously and averted their glances as soon as being noticed looking at me...
Men now seemed lots more interested, openly checked me out. As if to say – yummy legs hum. >:-)
So, A LOT depends on one's presentation. A LOT.
There was not the least perception of being clocked - nothing at all.
Feeling sexy has power, feeling in control, the power of feeling happy in our skin :)
Axélle