Depressed about inability to pass - just got a reality check

[8888]

Despite being on HRT for over 1.5 years my results are pretty bad. I "quit" in March only to go back on it a month later in different form (injections), so figured the reasons for my lack of feminisation, or masculinisation seeing as I happen to look more masculine every day, was because of my breaks which led to breast shrinkage etc...

Just now I had a look on Youtube for MTF HRT updates/timeline videos and realised that 90% of them didn't pass either. People who I thought looked OK in older videos are now more masculine as if the only reason they were feminine to being with was because they had some late teen/early 20s baby fat in their face that seems to have vanished with age.

Maybe initially I had a skewed perception of transwomen and separated them from bio-girls evaluating them both in their own right rather than comparing with each other, or maybe I was just excited at the fact that I was on HRT and it was "going to get better". Either way, the effects of HRT are way overhyped on the internet, on this forum, the best results I got was looking like a 12 year old boy which I was happy about since youger age = more chance of passing but that baby fat was destined to go one day and as soon as it did my depression became worse than before starting my transition.

At least now I feel as though I'm not alone, I just have a clearer vision of my outcome than I did before. HRT = useless, unless you either have a tiny bone structure or are fat then it's not worth the side-effects, and FFS can't fix most of what causes us to look like men. For some people being treated like a woman is enough, personally I don't want to be patronised by those who see me as a caricature behing their nice words, if you're transitioning to pass then you may unfortunately be part of the 90% who won't make it.

[JoanneB]

For me, just the opposite applies. In my younger and fatter days I totally did not pass. HRT made no difference in my 20's when I was a bit thinner but still plenty of fat, no muscle. Now, in my 50's, I have little problems passing. My only hinderence is being 6ft tall in an area filled with 5'4" women. Also being one of the few under 200 lbs (WV). So when I get longish stares, I cannot really be sure exactly why.

Before we mature both guys and girls "tend" to look the same. That young, immature look we associate with feminine. In my opinion as no expert, from a purely anthropoligical viewpoint, childlike looking women tended to survive because of the males hard wiring not to beat the baby. And that is the image we project a woman should should look like. THe real world tells a much different and diverse story.

Diet and lifestyle will ultimately have a lot of affect on how you age as well as respond to HRT. As most (older) TSs will tell you, HRT takes a good 2 to 3 years to show its full effect. That is why FFS is often recommended to be put off to latter. Let mother nature run her course. Most GG's take quite a few years to grow and mature into women. We should not expect miracles to happen overnight, in a biological time sense.

What you have observed on videos from those MTFs does not sound much different from what ageing does to GGs over the course of their late teens and into their twenties. Back in the day of family photo albums, this was abundantly clear as cousin so and so became "Who is that?" on the next page. Same test, same observable result.

[nicole99]

I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.

Passing is relative I think. It is not the same thing for everyone.

With hormones results vary, and you have been sporadically on them for only 18 months. That is no time at all time particularly given you stopped and started. Give the a chance.

And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care.  It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.

That may not be enough for you, but it was enough for me.

[alice10]

Well said. I agree with this. There are so many transwomen and men that are very passable and look amazing. I just think some people it takes more work than others. Thats all.

I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.

Passing is relative I think. It is not the same thing for everyone.

With hormones results vary, and you have been sporadically on them for only 18 months. That is no time at all time particularly given you stopped and started. Give the a chance.

And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care.  It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.

That may not be enough for you, but it was enough for me.

[suzifrommd]

Though, as a counterpoint, the happiest Trans women I know have no prayer of passing, but doesn't seem to dampen their enthusiasm or daunt them from expressing their femininity in lots of ways.

[UCBerkeleyPostop]

Despite being on HRT for over 1.5 years my results are pretty bad. I "quit" in March only to go back on it a month later in different form (injections), so figured the reasons for my lack of feminisation, or masculinisation seeing as I happen to look more masculine every day, was because of my breaks which led to breast shrinkage etc...

Just now I had a look on Youtube for MTF HRT updates/timeline videos and realised that 90% of them didn't pass either. People who I thought looked OK in older videos are now more masculine as if the only reason they were feminine to being with was because they had some late teen/early 20s baby fat in their face that seems to have vanished with age.

Maybe initially I had a skewed perception of transwomen and separated them from bio-girls evaluating them both in their own right rather than comparing with each other, or maybe I was just excited at the fact that I was on HRT and it was "going to get better". Either way, the effects of HRT are way overhyped on the internet, on this forum, the best results I got was looking like a 12 year old boy which I was happy about since youger age = more chance of passing but that baby fat was destined to go one day and as soon as it did my depression became worse than before starting my transition.

At least now I feel as though I'm not alone, I just have a clearer vision of my outcome than I did before. HRT = useless, unless you either have a tiny bone structure or are fat then it's not worth the side-effects, and FFS can't fix most of what causes us to look like men. For some people being treated like a woman is enough, personally I don't want to be patronised by those who see me as a caricature behing their nice words, if you're transitioning to pass then you may unfortunately be part of the 90% who won't make it.

Thank you for your honesty. The fact is there is a lot of posturing going on. Those who "pass" usually don't keep it a secret while those who do not generally keep quiet. I suspect that many if not most of those who start HRT after puberty do not just magically start passing after being on HRT for a time.  Unless one is built like an NFL tight end, a good FFS job will do the trick if HRT is not enough.

[Alainaluvsu]

IDK... My roommate (a cis gendered male) tends to disagree with you. Many of the youtube videos he looks at says the women pass. In fact the only reason he would ever think to clock many of them is because he's been around me.

Clocking people is the last thing on many cis gendered peoples minds, especially when it's a brief moment that you're talking with someone. After a while, sure I'm betting most of us (if not all of us) are going to be figured out. We are the ones so obsessed with gender placement and the differences.

I pointed out a transsexual to my teacher a while back, she couldn't believe it (and it was obvious to me!) When I started pointing out the differences in the face shapes of women and men, she was shocked - absolutely clueless to the major differences.

Also, the best test to see if you pass: cis men talk in a different tone to women. It's subtle and very hard to explain, but it's more gentle and like we are helpless (sort of). Men do NOT do this to people they don't see to be female, and their binary thinking generally does not allow them to see transsexuals as female... like it or not. I'll admit I rarely got this the first few months of transitioning, but now I get it 100% of the time.

Women are harder to crack, but are MUCH less likely to clock you. I have a friend who I recently met. My roommate told her that his roommate is transsexual and he would bring me over to her house 1 day (I live only a few houses down btw). So one day we both went down there. She welcomed me in her house but her defensive wall was up... I could feel it. I just sat there and didn't say much... but I talked a bit. Well over time either me or my roommate blurted out something about me being trans... and she got the most confused look in her face and then it hit her! "NO WAY! YOU ARE ALAINA??!!" ... instantly her wall went down as if I was no longer the enemy. Today I brought it up with her and she confirmed what I pretty much felt: she's very untrusting with strange women, especially one coming over with her "gusband" (gay husband - she's a spaz but I love her to death). What I'm trying to point out is that women distrust other women and you can seriously feel it when you aren't being clocked.

Not to mention, if you don't pass your girl friends WONT let you go in the womens room with them (well if you insist they'll just act like they aren't going in with you).. if you do, believe me they'll drag you in there!

[Ave]

Also, the best test to see if you pass: cis men talk in a different tone to women. It's subtle and very hard to explain, but it's more gentle and like we are helpless (sort of). Men do NOT do this to people they don't see to be female, and their binary thinking generally does not allow them to see transsexuals as female... like it or not. I'll admit I rarely got this the first few months of transitioning, but now I get it 100% of the time.

This ^. I definetly noticed this, even if they perceive you as a "baby butch" (lesbian? butch? IDK), the tone is...different.

I don't find it really flattering though, it's more misogynistic and douche-y .

[8888]

For me, just the opposite applies. In my younger and fatter days I totally did not pass. HRT made no difference in my 20's when I was a bit thinner but still plenty of fat, no muscle. Now, in my 50's, I have little problems passing. My only hinderence is being 6ft tall in an area filled with 5'4" women. Also being one of the few under 200 lbs (WV). So when I get longish stares, I cannot really be sure exactly why.

Well the differences in gender are slightly more blurred as you get older. Men age better than women and I like to think MTFs also do, so you're essentially competing against a group of cis-women who don't even pass as their own gender. But you seem to have a good bone structure in your avatar so don't need any baby fat to hide the maculinity like a lot of us do.

I dunno, I know a lot of trans women. True some of us don't 'pass' as well as others. Most after more than a couple years are well happy despite your perception of their looks. I think that is one thing to think about - people who transition after awhile often move on. We stop blogging, we stop posting on you tube. So you do get a skewed view of what trans women look like post transition.

Maybe, or it might be the other way round - MTF is happy with appearance so broadcasts it on Youtube or image threads. If a good number of passing transwomen are leaving sites like youtube or Susans imagine how many are avoiding having to show themselves because they aren't happy with their appearance? plus some of these vlogs are of people that have been on HRT for 4+ years.

And actually I think it is very rude to assume people are patronizing you. The reality is more that they don't really care.  It's more "ok this person might be a man, but they dress and act like a woman and they see nice so we will go with that.. thank you have a nice day". That is respect. That is despite perhaps thinking otherwise they do the right thing and treat you like you want to be treated.

Just them knowing them I'm trans embarrasses me. It's not like being a man/woman, transgender has a negative stigma attached to it...

Thank you for your honesty. The fact is there is a lot of posturing going on. Those who "pass" usually don't keep it a secret while those who do not generally keep quiet. I suspect that many if not most of those who start HRT after puberty do not just magically start passing after being on HRT for a time.  Unless one is built like an NFL tight end, a good FFS job will do the trick if HRT is not enough.

FFS doesn't address vertical facial proportions, which is the main reason for people not passing along with broad body structure.

Clocking people is the last thing on many cis gendered peoples minds, especially when it's a brief moment that you're talking with someone. After a while, sure I'm betting most of us (if not all of us) are going to be figured out. We are the ones so obsessed with gender placement and the differences.

I have a cis-frind who's clocked two women in the past in front of me, this guy doesn't know I'm trans and has no affiliation with any of the LGBT community. The girls he clocked passed way better than I could

[=celestica=]

FFS doesn't address vertical facial proportions, which is the main reason for people not passing along with broad body structure.

It does lol.
If the chin is shortened and the hairline is brought down a tiny bit the face will be smaller. Atleast in my case. Not really interested in FFS though, I pass fine without it.

[Alainaluvsu]

It does lol.
If the chin is shortened and the hairline is brought down a tiny bit the face will be smaller. Atleast in my case. Not really interested in FFS though, I pass fine without it.

Actually I agree with 8888. The distance between the corner of the eyes and the corner of the lips aren't reduced enough on most people. That's big on clocking because it indicates a skull that has been though masculinization. But honestly I don't think it sets off as many visual flags as 8888 thinks it does. I think broad shoulders and the amount of testosterone supplied bone growth on the mandible are much more indicative.

But let's face it... the biggest clockers are facial hair and voice... and a TON of us aren't able to overcome those two... especially the voice!

[pretty]

Well frankly the reason that most mtfs don't pass is because most mtfs want to live socially still functionally male but with some kind of magic hrt and a new set of pronouns.

Hrt helps. But hrt is not magic. To some extent you gotta walk the walk. People underestimate that. Personally looking in the mirror I can see all the reasons I should be clocked but in reality it just never happens because even *if* I have a manface or something, there is just nothing else about me that seems male to people. It doesn't matter if my facial proportions are a lil off when everything else screams girl.

So I would suggest that if hrt is not enough there is something missing elsewhere. Do your makeup before you leave the house. Like really identify your bad features and learn about how you can use makeup to hide them. Dress as femininely as possible while staying appropriate for your body and the occasion. Get an objective evaluation of your voice and if it's not great then work on improving on it.

Ultimately it is not a problem you can just throw money at and you can't just wait it out. So go out there and show people what you know is within you. You have to give them something to work with

[noeleena]

Hi,

I dont pass or blend in as a woman or a female  no meds will change that & i  knew this years ago,

I accepted my self 55 years ago i was then & am now still the same a intersexed woman.  im accepted get on very well with women  joined women only groups a member of many others .

Have many friends,  have a life with in our community, do things with others .

So if thats not being accepted i have no idear what is,  every  one knows who i am background  included,

I can go over seas & be accepted as well. so it sure is not my looks that count .  you can quess what makes the difference.

So do i ...need ... to look right or look like a female or a woman to be accepted as one,  to much importance is placed on the ...look... or the ...passablity ... & i have nether.  so quess again what does it take to be accepted,  have a rethink about the ? to find the answer, & maybe youll see where im going with this,

maybe iv got 65 years & of those 48  as a percived male yet was i really  only because people wonted to see it there way yet a few saw things differently they saw a female. & that was in the 60's, .

So what you see is not allways whats really there on the out side. get to know the person & see the real who it is.

In  my case a intersexed / woman.

& even with my short  coming's  Im one Happy Contented ...Woman...

...noeleena...

[Dahlia]

Well the differences in gender are slightly more blurred as you get older.

Yes, they do blur with age.

Men age better than women

I wouldn't say so. Balding, pot belly, heavy wrinkles...

and I like to think MTFs also do

Some do, some don't. I have a post op MTF friend who also had FFS with dr O some 12 years ago and her FFS face is slowly going masculine again...with aging.

I have a cis-frind who's clocked two women in the past in front of me, this guy doesn't know I'm trans and has no affiliation with any of the LGBT community. The girls he clocked passed way better than I could

Straight/bi cismen just sense it when one is MTF............whether for years or decades on HRT or post srs/ffs or whatever.
If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.

It's like an aura.

Straight and bi men 'sexualize' everything that's feminine....so upon 'closer inspection' they'll see a (slightly) bigger head, a thicker neck, broader shoulders, a larger trunk etcetc than a ciswoman has.

Sometimes they see cheekimplants/augmented/lips/breasts which altogether or individually scream: MTF!!

Being 100% passable and going stealth shouldn't be your first priority; that's only for a very, very few MTF.

Just try to be yourself and I fully agree with Noeleena's post.

Oh, btw: I've heard many, many (cis) people after vacationing in Thailand say that Thai MTF are soooooo feminine, they really couldn't tell.

Well, if they couldn't tell they would have seen ciswomen eh?

[Beverly]

I have been on HRT less than a year. I am 49 and 5'8" in height (6ft in heels) and I still have to shave every day because electrolysis is a slow process. My hairline is too high.

Yesterday I stood in a queue for the ladies toilets. I knew none of the women in the queue. I am 100% positive they were not just being polite to humour me.

What many people forget is that not all women are beauty queens. There are a lot of fat women, a lot of ugly women, a lot of women with mannish features, a lot of women have dreadful skin, acne or spots. I am no beauty but there are women out there who look way, way uglier and more manly than me.

I live 24/7 as female. I work hard on my voice (this is a BIG factor in acceptance). I work hard at ditching my male mannerisms, but most of all I am confident in myself. I know this is right and I no longer accept any form of masculine role. I demand acceptance as a woman because that is what I am.

It works for me and I cannot wait to see what another 4 or 5 years of HRT does to me. This is a slow process.

[Beverly]

Straight/bi cismen just sense it when one is MTF............whether for years or decades on HRT or post srs/ffs or whatever.
If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.

I feel that that statement is simply wrong. If it was right there would be a riot every time I go to the ladies' loo, or the ladies' changing rooms. Too many strangers include me in womens' activities - people who do not know me. Men also treat me very differently now. They never used to open doors for me...

[Dahlia]

I demand acceptance as a woman because that is what I am.

Oh.....hmmmm..that doesn't sound too relaxed. Demanding won't help...letting it come in time perhaps will.

It sounds a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor demanding to be seen as a young beauty.

[Apples Mk.II]

Straight and bi men 'sexualize' everything that's feminine....so upon 'closer inspection' they'll see a (slightly) bigger head, a thicker neck, broader shoulders, a larger trunk etcetc than a ciswoman has.

It's a bit of uncanny valley effect, like when you see a hyperrealist robot or CGI. There is a small something that does not fin in the picture, but it is really hard to find what is, and will tend to create an uneasy feeling.

I don't really care, If I am OK with myself. I've never been Mr Universe. I'll try to fix everything I can, and maybe it can be Ok enough. For every perfect girl I see I can find 5 normal, and... I'm not going to lie, but I'd look a lot slimmer than most of the cis I usually see on my day to day. I'm puttin all the FFS budget I can, but it is more for myself than passing.

But I guess I am one of those special cases, no interest on hiding my past (At 29 it is too late for that), I like the mixture of facial fatures... And I don't have a lot of hopes in developing a decent voice with such a busted throat.

[Beverly]

Oh.....hmmmm..that doesn't sound too relaxed. Demanding won't help...letting it come in time perhaps will.

It sounds a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor demanding to be seen as a young beauty.

I do not mean that I thump the counter and shout "I'm a woman dammit!". I mean that if anyone does challenge me or enquire, I refuse to accept the role of being categorised as some sort of fake. I correct them and explain. I attempt to educate them but I will not accept that I am playing some sort of game or that I am some sort of sex pervert.

[Kelly J. P.]

If they don't see or hear it they just sense it, on the contrary what most (post op) MTF say.

It's like an aura.



Oh, btw: I've heard many, many (cis) people after vacationing in Thailand say that Thai MTF are soooooo feminine, they really couldn't tell.

Well, if they couldn't tell they would have seen ciswomen eh?

It is my personal experience that "aura" has little or no effect on people's perceptions of my sex. In almost all circumstances, people don't "other" me, though I will note that my Adam's apple is a bit of a clue sometimes. However, as I am fairly short, most people look down on me and therefore don't see it, so it's not as big of a deal as one might think. To further the point, I have spoken with many people, and then revealed my trans status, and they say they wouldn't have known. Sometimes things get weird beyond that point, but it's mostly okay.

Also, as for the Thai women thing, isn't it possible that the reason someone could tell is because they were advertising their trans status in some way? Like their location, a symbol they're wearing, or their voice which, if perfected, would have created a flawless presentation? Or perhaps a Thai trans woman just told the person they're trans? There are a number of ways to find out someone is trans that don't involve being able to tell by their appearance or "aura".