So I was browsing tumblr and see there is something called "truscum" which is basically transmen who reject the idea that being trans is an identity and that it is strictly a medical condition that needs to be taken care of. I don't know how many of you are on tumblr and how many of you are aware of any of this, but I was wondering what people's opinion was on it. What do you think of trans being an identity or something you identify as or strictly as a medical condition that you need to be released from through hormones and/or surgery? I'm aware people can have both stances, but there seems to be a bit of a divide. I don't know if the MTF community has any of this, I'm strictly speaking from an FTM perspective. Although, anyone can weigh in I guess. Thoughts? Opinions?
I see it as an identity that can be validated through surgery and hormones.
However, I absolutely respect anyone who sees it as a medical condition that just needs to be treated.
I think about it this way:
What if there was a way to confirm if someone's brain was actually male oriented through some sorta of technological advancement in fMRI scans or something similar.
Given the prevalence of gate-keeping to get access to surgery and hormones - what if we were required to pass the "provable medical condition" brain scan to be given the OK to proceed with transition?
What if you knew 100% you were male but did not pass the brain scan and therefore were stuck in a female identity indefinitely? How much would that suck?
If it is an identity - it's your choice, for your reasons. Don't use biology as yet another reason to tell someone they can't be who they need to be in order to be validated and happy with themselves.
I also think focusing on ourselves as broken biologically can lead to an obsession with placing ourselves firmly on one side of the binary. This leads to someone defining their self-worth only through the opinion of others and how well "they pass", which in some cases can be crippling and counter-productive.
edit: "passing" standards are unfortunately reinforced through culture norms and many of us do not want to stand out and be defined by being trans, so people who see being trans* as an identity can still want to be "passable" to make their lives easier.
I view it as a medical condition only.
I am a tumblr. "Truscum" blogger.
I see my transsexualism as purely a medical condition. My concern with this whole "identity" plague are the people who are ignoring the the criteria to even be diagnosed with GID/Transsexualism.
Those who say they are trans but do not suffer from dysphoria and simply don't like the "gender roles" they feel they are expected to take on. I have a hard time believing people who wear this like a badge of honor or something that needs to be taken pride in.
You are either born trans or you are not.
It's simple.
Those who say they are trans because they "feel like dressing like a boy one day and a girl the next" make this condition seem like a joke.
How can we expect professionals and insurance companies to take us seriously when we have these attention seeking individuals running around screaming about how it's an identity and not a medical condition?
It totally boggles my mind how this has become acceptable behavior.
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
I see my transsexualism as purely a medical condition. My concern with this whole "identity" plague are the people who are ignoring the the criteria to even be diagnosed with GID/Transsexualism.
You need external validation to prove you are yourself? You want to be treated like a child who needs permission to be happy? So in your opinion informed consent for hormones and surgery should never be allowed?
You want people to have to exactly conform to one particular narrative spelled out in an arcane DSM, which even most professionals repudiate, in order to get what they need to even exist?
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
Those who say they are trans but do not suffer from dysphoria and simply don't like the "gender roles" they feel they are expected to take on. I have a hard time believing people who wear this like a badge of honor or something that needs to be taken pride in.
You are either born trans or you are not.
So if I don't pass a medical test I don't get to deal with my dysphoria? I don't see it as a birth defect, but I absolutely need to transition to be happy with myself. You would tell me that I can't?
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
Those who say they are trans because they "feel like dressing like a boy one day and a girl the next" make this condition seem like a joke.
How can the way someone else feels invalidate your own identity?
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
How can we expect professionals and insurance companies to take us seriously when we have these attention seeking individuals running around screaming about how it's an identity and not a medical condition?
Informed consent is also a solution to this problem for hormones. Most insurance companies in the US don't pay for surgery anyways. In countries with socialized medicine people who have non-conforming gender identities but are not transsexuals all ready have to lie in order to get things paid for. Their choices are not affecting yours in the least as long as the system makes them behave a certain way to even get what they want paid for in the first place.
You want trans people to keep it to themselves and shamefully hide in the shadows. How does that improve the situation for trans people in the future? How does that make it easier for trans people to be accepted at work and by their friends and families?
Trans people are murdered for being themselves. Trans people are denied identity validating healthcare. Trans people are told they can't change their names and gender markers. Everything you have just said perpetuates this status quo.
But you know what? I respect your opinion absolutely. I won't tell you that you can't have it. I believe in the absolute right of the individual to define who they are on their own terms. Why would you deny this right to other people?
I'm irritated by anyone who thinks they've got it all figured out (and have made up a new term for it no less) and are running around telling everyone else that their way is the right way and whatever you're thinking is wrong.
If you need to think of it as a medical condition, fine, that's your choice, but do we all need another made-up term? Could we all just be ourselves and cozy with our individual identities without creating another term and without trying to front some sort of lifestyle-movement-crusade on, for or against other people? Could we all just seek out the treatment we want and/or need without people giving us ->-bleeped-<- for it? Apparently not.
It's like we're all on a large playground calling out people who are different from us. And now we've got people coming down on transsexuals who actually just want to fit into the gender binary acting like it's some sin or something. I mean, I'm not advocating the binary, I wish someday in the future society as a whole would be a-okay with those "in the middle" individuals, but I'm certainly not going to diss someone for just wanting to be who they are. The whole trans community becomes a joke to a lot of people because of dumb stuff like this.
What about people who are stuck, like myself, unable to take hormone therapy for whatever health or personal reasons? Or people, once again like myself, who have a serious phobia and problem with surgery? I'll tell you one thing – it all makes my life real f'ing ->-bleeped-<-ty to have to deal with being labeled a gender that I'm not, but I'm not about to be lumped into someone else's category or terminology just because of the way I live my life. I'm who I am and no one's going to change that, not with a term or a label or anything else. I was far more damaged by therapists and psychologists that labeled me with a mental disease than when I started realizing that there's a ton of variation in nature and if people would have just left me alone or let me make my own decisions I probably would have been infinitely happier.
I also don't think the medical profession is cruising around tumblr to see what everyone are calling themselves these days. After hanging out here for about 2 years now I see a ton of trans people getting treatment they need. A small percentage seem to be caught up in some "gatekeeping" thing, usually because of having a crap therapist who doesn't even understand trans issues or family members who are acting as gatekeepers. Either way, it seems like that a lot of people are being taken seriously by the medical profession.
Hirschfeld first came up with transsexualism and came up with the idea of surgical treatment as early as 1910. "Trans" isn't some new thing. And from that inception, it has evolved. I'm certainly not the one to take the sides of the psychologists and doctors but because of actual important stuff that advocates are doing (not people yapping on tumblr) the DSM was recently changed to replace GID with Gender Dysphoria. That seems like it will open more doors rather than shut them. Even though I'm also not an advocate of the DSM being some be-all-end-all manual for labeling people with conditions I understand that it's an important factor for people being able to get the treatment they want/need. But that also means that people are being taken seriously. Hell even the U.S. VP Biden recently mentioned something about transgender issues being important. People are taking it seriously. What people aren't taking seriously is every new term that comes up on tumblr.
I'm sorry if this comes off a little ranty. I've had a rough day today.
medical condition>identity.
Suggesting some people just identify that way is a little offensive, but I don't have a horse in this race.
That being said, I'd be wary of who is more or less trans discussions, they ALWAYS go awry.
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:00:02 AM
medical condition>identity.
Suggesting some people just identify that way is a little offensive, but I don't have a horse in this race.
That being said, I'd be wary of who is more or less trans discussions, they ALWAYS go awry.
internecine conflict is not something to be avoided. It's the most important conversation we can have, in my opinion. I really hope this thread does not get locked.
I don't have a medical condition. I am myself. I am sorry that my identity offends you. I wish I could explain it in a way that would not. I wish I could find the words to express the fact that there does not need to be a > or < between the two, but a = instead, in terms of someone just wanting to be happy with themselves, whatever their reasons.
Quote from: spacerace on November 04, 2012, 12:05:09 AM
internecine conflict is not something to be avoided. It's the most important conversation we can have, in my opinion. I really hope this thread does not get locked.
I don't have a medical condition. I am myself. I am sorry that my identity offends you. I wish I could explain it in a way that would not. I wish I could find the words to express the fact that there does not need to be a > or < between the two, but a = instead, in terms of someone just wanting to be happy with themselves, whatever their reasons.
lol I'm not offended
but if GID were no longer a "thing" wouldn't that effectively kill insurance payments for hormones and SRS? These things then become elective, and if they are elective they will no longer be covered by any reputable insurance company.
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:09:19 AM
but if GID were no longer a "thing" wouldn't that effectively kill insurance payments for hormones and SRS? These things then become elective, and if they are elective they will no longer be covered by any reputable insurance company.
yep, pretty much.
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:09:19 AM
lol I'm not offended
but if GID were no longer a "thing" wouldn't that effectively kill insurance payments for hormones and SRS? These things then become elective, and if they are elective they will no longer be covered by any reputable insurance company.
I pretty much feel the same way @spacerace, yet I also fully acknowledge the importance of the diagnosis because that's how treatment is obtained, how it can be covered by insurance, etc. What I don't get is why people have to attack one another or say things can only be one way. The whole gender spectrum already exists. In my opinion it's existed since life began (and even exists in the animal kingdom). Let the people who need the treatment get it and leave the people who are fine with their identities alone.
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:09:19 AM
lol I'm not offended
but if GID were no longer a "thing" wouldn't that effectively kill insurance payments for hormones and SRS? These things then become elective, and if they are elective they will no longer be covered by any reputable insurance company.
My insurance covers nothing. I chose informed consent. I will pay for surgery entirely out of pocket. It is taking me forever to save the money for it.
You can't hide behind a broken healthcare system to deny someone else their identity .
Edit: Considering things like insurance standards in the US, and government healthcare bright-lines in countries with socialized medicine, lets bureaucrats define who gets to be themselves. That is what you want when you say "but doesn't this affect my healthcare?"
I also recognize that without insurance, some people will never get surgery or hormones. This system sucks, but that doesn't mean that non-binary identities subtract from what what it means to be trans*
I have watched documentaries on children, five, six years old, who are men and women, but they weren't born that way. And how they were looked at by psychologists, half of the psychologists said that this should be allowed, the other half said that this should be discouraged and tried to kill that in them. And I just feel like that very few people can come into the feeling of their biological gender, but people have done it out of necessity, other than that, I feel it's wrong to force someone to be who they are not.
Well I think it is both, but I don't think what I have is gender identity *disorder*. I think it is a part of a continuum of what is "normal". (Normal, is, of course, a dryer setting.)
I don't know how you would know you had this medical condition, if you didn't have feelings inside that told you what your identity was.
--Jay J
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
Those who say they are trans because they "feel like dressing like a boy one day and a girl the next" make this condition seem like a joke.
And just because how I view myself effects you...?
I invite you to comment on my other threads. :)
Quote from: spacerace on November 03, 2012, 11:40:21 PM
You need external validation to prove you are yourself? You want to be treated like a child who needs permission to be happy? So in your opinion informed consent for hormones and surgery should never be allowed?
That's not what I said. In order to be trans you must suffer from body dysphoria. If you do not. You are not trans. Simple. Why would someone who does not suffer from body dysphoria want to transition?
QuoteYou want people to have to exactly conform to one particular narrative spelled out in an arcane DSM, which even most professionals repudiate, in order to get what they need to even exist?
The DSM is becoming a joke, next thing you know otherkin will be included and it'll have people transitioning into a paper bag if that's how they
identify.
QuoteSo if I don't pass a medical test I don't get to deal with my dysphoria? I don't see it as a birth defect, but I absolutely need to transition to be happy with myself. You would tell me that I can't?
The thing is you do in fact suffer from dysphoria. I am speaking about those who do not. Body dysphoria is pretty much the only real symptom of transsexualism.
Again I ask how one can be trans and not experience dysphoria.
QuoteHow can the way someone else feels invalidate your own identity?
I have a medical condition. It has nothing to do with my identity.
Quote
Informed consent is also a solution to this problem for hormones. Most insurance companies in the US don't pay for surgery anyways. In countries with socialized medicine people who have non-conforming gender identities but are not transsexuals all ready have to lie in order to get things paid for. Their choices are not affecting yours in the least as long as the system makes them behave a certain way to even get what they want paid for in the first place.
Hmm... I wonder why most insurance companies don't pay for it. Oh that's right, because they already don't see transsexualism as a legitimate medical condition.
Gender non-conforming individuals need to not lie and claim they are transsexual when they are not. People can not like certain things about themselves and deal with it how they see fit but do not appropriate a medical condition to do it. People have already proven that gender non-conforming individuals can get the treatment they want without doing so.
QuoteYou want trans people to keep it to themselves and shamefully hide in the shadows. How does that improve the situation for trans people in the future? How does that make it easier for trans people to be accepted at work and by their friends and families?
Excuse me? Don't make an ass out of yourself by assuming things I "want".
Transsexuals can be as out as they want to. That's not my business and I don't care but at least they are in fact transsexual and not just pretending because trans is the new black.
For us (and by us I mean truscum blogger), the point of transitioning from one "sex" to the other is to decrease dysphoria and blend in with the rest of society so we can live our everyday lives in peace.
I don't know about those who run around waving their trans flags everywhere but once you're transitioned and seen as "just another guy" it becomes easier and you'll have other things to worry about.
We have a medical condition and do not want it glorified.QuoteTrans people are murdered for being themselves. Trans people are denied identity validating healthcare. Trans people are told they can't change their names and gender markers. Everything you have just said perpetuates this status quo.
Transsexual people are murdered because there are ignorant people out there who hate us. Not for being themselves. For those who can't get their documents changed over that
sucks and only the changing of laws will make it easier.
But in order to change the laws people must take us seriously.
QuoteBut you know what? I respect your opinion absolutely. I won't tell you that you can't have it. I believe in the absolute right of the individual to define who they are on their own terms. Why would you deny this right to other people?
People can define/identify how ever they want. Just don't appropriate a medical condition to do it.
Quote from: aleon515 on November 04, 2012, 12:21:57 AM
Well I think it is both, but I don't think what I have is gender identity *disorder*. I think it is a part of a continuum of what is "normal". (Normal, is, of course, a dryer setting.)
I don't know how you would know you had this medical condition, if you didn't have feelings inside that told you what your identity was.
--Jay J
My feelings never told me what to identify as, I don't have to identify as anything because my feelings tell me I am a man. I am a man, and I'm taking medical steps to fix my problem.
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:00:02 AM
medical condition>identity.
Suggesting some people just identify that way is a little offensive, but I don't have a horse in this race.
That being said, I'd be wary of who is more or less trans discussions, they ALWAYS go awry.
This is a good point, which all should remember.
As a support site, we recognize the entire transgender spectrum. "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" and "true transsexual" advocates
are not welcome.With that said, the issue of GID as a diagnosis, and the concept of "gatekeepers" as impediments to receiving care, are valid topics of discussion.
It is impossible for me to see it as an identity.
Identities change over time. it depends on how much you grow as a person, the people you surround yourself by, the things you do. All those things have changed multiple times in my life, and certain aspects of my identity have changed. No one has the exact same identity, or even personality, as they did when they were a kid.
Being trans is something that will never change, and can never change. I see no problem with viewing it as a medical condition. There's no shame in that, although some people seem to see it as an insult to trans people, and I think that's why many choose the term "identity." That said...All of the doctors and psychiatrists I have dealt with agree that while we don't understand the exact mechanism for how transsexualism occurs, it happens on a biological level. Despite that they've never treated me like I am diseased, just like a human being who needs help, through medication and surgery, in order to be healthy and functional.
I don't see why we need to apply ID politics to that at all, personally.
Quote from: Two way Rain on November 04, 2012, 12:24:46 AM
And just because how I view myself effects you...?
I invite you to comment on my other threads. :)
Because wearing men's clothing does NOT make you FTM transgender.
I am transgender because my identity doesn't match my body. That condition is to be remedied through hormones and surgery.
The rest is just semantics.
Quote from: Yossarian on November 04, 2012, 12:26:15 AM
That's not what I said. In order to be trans you must suffer from body dysphoria. If you do not. You are not trans. Simple. Why would someone who does not suffer from body dysphoria want to transition?
The DSM is becoming a joke, next thing you know otherkin will be included and it'll have people transitioning into a paper bag if that's how they identify.
I agree completely that the DSM is a joke, but because it is rigid - certainly not because it may eventually recognize more IDs. Making people fit into categories never works out well. It seemed to me like you're the one that wants people to conform to it in order to be "diagnosed" with GID as the DSM will unfortunately be the gold-standard for years to come - especially for insurance companies who need to tag everything with codes to justify expenses and treatment approvals.
QuoteThe thing is you do in fact suffer from dysphoria. I am speaking about those who do not. Body dysphoria is pretty much the only real symptom of transsexualism.
I have dysphoria, yes, but I do not feel I have a birth defect or a medical condition. I'm me, and there are steps I can take to be more comfortable being me.
QuoteHmm... I wonder why most insurance companies don't pay for it. Oh that's right, because they already don't see transsexualism as a legitimate medical condition.
So the solution is deny people the right to identify as trans*? Why can't you keep your medical condition without being angry at other people under the trans-umbrella?
Something to consider - If every single non-gender confirming person you feel is delegitimizing your medical condition suddenly vanished, the insurance companies that do not pay for transition will not magically expand coverage.
QuoteGender non-conforming individuals need to not lie and claim they are transsexual when they are not. People can not like certain things about themselves and deal with it how they see fit but do not appropriate a medical condition to do it. People have already proven that gender non-conforming individuals can get the treatment they want without doing so.
Most surgeons and doctors require a letter to get hormones or have surgery. I was very very lucky to find a doctor willing to do informed consent. This is a progressive stance that is only now gaining momentum through the efforts of the community.
Generally and historically, Gender non-conforming people who want a letter have to lie, or they at least have to stretch out their narrative enough to meet the standards of whatever gate-keeper they have to appease.
QuoteExcuse me? Don't make an ass out of yourself by assuming things I "want".
Transsexuals can be as out as they want to. That's not my business and I don't care but at least they are in fact transsexual and not just pretending because trans is the new black.
Saying that gender non-conforming people are "pretending" and being "trendy" and only "looking for attention" (as you said in your first post) is a reprehensible outright denial of their identities.
QuoteI don't know about those who run around waving their trans flags everywhere but once you're transitioned and seen as "just another guy" it becomes easier and you'll have other things to worry about.
Absolutely. And I think it is great when people can reach that point. But what about the people that feel they can never reach "just another guy" status? Should they be self-hating? I think breaking down the rigid binary would let everyone be a lot more happy with who they are, even for people who just see it as a medical condition.
QuoteWe have a medical condition and do not want it glorified.
inside said it best when he pointed out the evolution of the trans identity. It's all ready happened, people are all ready out there celebrating an infinite number of trans* IDs. You can't undo it. Why not view it positively and use it to make everything better?
Quote
Transsexual people are murdered because there are ignorant people out there who hate us. Not for being themselves. For those who can't get their documents changed over that sucks and only the changing of laws will make it easier.
You know how laws get changed and ignorance can be educated? Visibility of the community. A cooperating community can get more accomplished. Why would you place a divide and declare ground against the very people who have the same goals as you do?
Quote from: Alexander09 on November 04, 2012, 12:53:44 AM
Because wearing men's clothing does NOT make you FTM transgender.
No, that would make you a crossdresser.
I am at the stage of I am currently unsure of 'what the hell am I?' and the most accurate thing to say is FtM. And who is to say, oh you're not in our elite group, and deny my identity, or medical condition.
Quote from: Two way Rain on November 04, 2012, 12:24:46 AM
And just because how I view myself effects you...?
I invite you to comment on my other threads. :)
Actually if you feel like a boy one day (and dress like that) and a girl another (and dress that way), that's called "genderfluid". I know of a genderfluid person who goes on vacation with double the clothes, not knowing how they will feel. I think there seems like a lot of anxiety in this so it is definitely not a joke.
--Jay J
Quote from: Alexander09 on November 04, 2012, 12:53:44 AM
Because wearing men's clothing does NOT make you FTM transgender.
Quote from: Yossarian on November 03, 2012, 11:18:22 PM
Those who say they are trans because they "feel like dressing like a boy one day and a girl the next" make this condition seem like a joke.
Wearing cross-gender clothing may very well be a coping mechanism for gender dysphoria.
You are making a value judgment which is impermissible on this site.
Other people's identities don't bother me. I'm a man with a medical condition.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on November 04, 2012, 03:56:43 AM
Other people's identities don't bother me. I'm a man with a medical condition.
And on the flip side, I'm a woman with a medical condition.
I didn't wake up one day and decide 'Hey, I think it would be fun to become a woman.', I've always been one, it's just taken me some time to accept it and do something about it.
I see it differently, but that is due to looking at the issue from the viewpoint of General Semantics and Existentialism.
The BSTc of my hypothalamus resembles that of a cis-woman, rather than a man. This was most likely caused by a long repeat length on the Androgen Receptor allele on my 46th chromosome, according to the latest research.
This causes me to feel that I am a woman rather than a man. This is also known as my Gender Identity.
The Medical Profession have decided in their wisdom this is a Disorder, and therefore has to be approached as a Medical problem. They do this because they are limited in the ways they can view things.
The observer always affects the observation.
I however see it as a variation in my anatomy I would like altered.
I see it as a part of what I call my "facticity", which I choose to "transcend."
I accept responsibility for my own decision and actions, but do not attempt to impose my observations on this matter on others. This would be "bad faith" which should be avoided at all costs.
They can make their own choices, and hopefully accept responsibility for them.
Karen.
Ye olde either or....
My answer is both.
I view it like this, based on the scientific information available at this time;
My biological makeup contains an anomaly which causes me to identify as a gender other than the sex I was born with.
Transgender is not an identity to me, it's a condition with a biological root cause. It's a condition wherein the two pieces of hardware (brain and sexual organs) involved are not entirely compatible.
My gender identity is an identity, it's how I view myself on a psychological/intellectual/emotional level. It's the software created by the system.
I understand that some have a fear that should this be treated as purely a matter of identity that this will affect their own treatment and their own ability to be taken seriously, and honestly, I share this fear to a degree.
If we choose to root for a certain team in sports then we can identify as supporters of that team, it's a purely chosen identity.
The fear is that if gender identity is viewed purely as an identity then it will be treated with the same level of seriousness as which team you root for in a sport.
That this lack of taking gender seriously will lead to transgender children being forced to behave "normally" and to transgender people in general being denied coverage for their transition related costs.
Please don't think that the USA is the only place where coverage is an issue. In the current system in Iceland, transsexuality is considered a medical condition and therefore transition is fully covered by the single payer insurance system. If transsexuality was considered a matter of a person's chosen identity then the system would in all likelihood only cover the costs of seeing a therapist so that you can either a) correct your identification or b) stop being miserable over something you can control.
There's also a fear of transsexuality being treated as a 100% medical condition, and I can understand the reasons for this, but I don't share this fear myself.
The fear is that there'll be a test devised which will determine, once and for all, whether your brain wiring is anomalous enough to warrant transition and that not everyone who experiences gender related dysphoria will pass the test.
To be perfectly honest, I don't fear this because I honestly believe that brain wiring anomalies have been observed well enough to subscribe to that theory of transsexuality and that should one be found to have a female wired brain in a female body then clearly their dysphoria is not caused by their brain wiring not matching their body and then perhaps transition wouldn't actually be what they need.
Now, don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that it's not what "you" need, I'm saying that maybe being able to accurately and conclusively diagnose transsexuality is a good thing because then people can get the treatment they actually need.
I don't necessarily think that a negative test should make it completely impossible for a person to transition, should they still have that desire.
I find the thought frightening as well. That they'll devise the test and I'll take it and come out as "female". It would uproot my life quite a bit and I would contest the results and so on, but at the same time, I also know that should I be diagnosed with any number of conditions that I would like to contest them as well.
A diagnosis isn't a label do define us, it's a way for us to get the help we need.
I didn't want to be diagnosed with anxiety, but the diagnosis has helped me, it's made the right solutions available to me for a problem I didn't even want to admit to having.
It's a complicated issue, and a very sensitive subject, so I'm trying to word my thoughts well.
I have always been male, since my earliest memories, yet always wondered why the H my body was F?
I am a man with a corrected medical condition. Transitioning is part of my medical history. I identify as male, period.
How you identify is your business.
Jay
I can't see being trans as anything other than a medical condition, calling it an identity does imply that it can be taken up loosely and discarded, although I don't know if that very idea is something that sprung up with social justice warriors and identity politics.
I'll just say that when people get surprised that they offend trans people when they take up their identity but clearly make up a whole bunch of rules that anyone can get be trans....that's when I get why everyone gets pissed off.
I won't bother with the whole label policing and "my identity is more valid than yours" thing, but I just wanted to chime in on one point :
Quote from: Ave on November 04, 2012, 12:09:19 AM
but if GID were no longer a "thing" wouldn't that effectively kill insurance payments for hormones and SRS? These things then become elective, and if they are elective they will no longer be covered by any reputable insurance company.
Not necessarily. Here in France, transsexualism isn't considered a mental illness anymore since 2010, yet HRT and surgeries are still covered by both the public healthcare system and most private insurances as they are seen as necessary for a trans person's well-being and ability to "function" in society. It's like, say, if someone is suicidal for whatever reason, they can be put on anti-depressants and have them paid by healthcare even if they haven't been diagnosed as suffering from clinical depression.
I'm not very familiar with the US healthcare system (though from what I know of it it seems to suck), but it sets a precedent that it
is possible to have it both ways - getting access to the medical care you need without having to be considered sick or dysfunctional for it.
I certainly don't see it as a medical condition, but I understand how other people could classify it as that, especially considering that most (If not all of us) have to be diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder before we can receive hormones. It's only natural for some people to think about it that way. Unfortunately, I don't like thinking about it as a 'condition,' no one ever thinks about Cisgender as being a condition, so why should being trans fit into that. Either way, for me, it's an identity and one that I've worked damned hard to make the rest of the world see. I use medical means to change my outward identity to match the one that I see inside, and for me, that's all there is to it.
I personally don't care what it is, I just know that I'm male and this body isn't. If you want to call it an identity, fine, if you want to call it a medical condition, also fine by me. However if you want to tell me that it doesn't exist, that is not fine. (Just to clarify so I don't cause an outburst on this potentially volatile subject, this isn't aimed at anyone here, just at the world in general. I do that sometimes.)
If I had to pick between calling it an identity or a medical condition then in my case I feel that it's a medical condition. I don't identify as male, I am male and there's a fault in my body. Depression is a medical condition and no one questions that, but it can't be tested for, just like transsexualism. Also like transsexualism it is very real, yet some people have been given the power to 'gatekeep' over who gets treated and in what way, and similarly people choose to treat it in different ways. Some people medicate it, some look for other ways, and each way is just as valid as the next, because no one option is perfect and everyone is an individual.
That's not saying at all that it's okay for 'gatekeeping' to happen. It's really not. And it doesn't work. It's not that difficult to lie to a therapist/councilor/doctor/whoever and tell them what they want to hear to get a certain end result. I lied my way out of counselling for depression numerous times although if I had been honest I would have gotten help off them, but the end result I wanted was to get out of there because he was a twisted sadist. I knew people who had been affected less than me and they were being taken seriously, and even put on anti-depressants, but my goal was just to never see him again and I got that. I could go to a doctor and tell them that I was 100% cisgendered if I wanted to, it would mess me up but it would be possible, so clearly a cisgender person could be allowed through by the gatekeepers if they so desired, rendering it pointless and overall more damaging than good. Also not saying that therapy isn't helpful for some people, but just saying that they shouldn't be given the right to say yes or no.
Overall though, I don't think it matters. We are what we are, and we'll probably never find out why. Does it matter that we don't know why? Not really, it's not going to give some spectacular cure, the best case scenario is if they discover a way to tell for sure in the early stages of a kids life so they don't have to go through the puberty from hell, or to prevent it happening in the first place. I'm not sure where the latter would leave non-binary people though so maybe that wouldn't be so good. I don't see why people get wound up about it, maybe calling it a medical condition will make it easier for people to believe that it's real, but it's not going to make all our problems go away.
As for if there was a medical 'test' discovered for then unless it was severely flawed the only people it should weed out are those for whom transitioning was never what they should be doing in the first place. And they do exist, some because they're pricks who think it's 'cool' -- hopefully they get stopped before they can do irreversible damage to their bodies -- but also people who have underlying mental health problems and they interpret these wrongly. I think the feeling of 'I'm not trans enough' is what scares people most about such a test being discovered, and that seems to be a fairly common, but illogical, thought. I know I've thought it before (but I think I scrapped that a couple of days ago when I cared more about the fact they immediately called me 'young lady' after a motorbike crash than the fact that I'd been hit by a van. I doubt anyone who wasn't really trans would think that a midst so much panic, shock and pain.)
I just have to back and reiterate my overwhelming feeling of, frankly, what difference does it make as long as we get treated how we need to be? Words change all the time, what's 'politically correct' changes all the time (do we call someone who goes to school a pupil, student or learner for example?) and we should just run with whatever the medical professionals prefer that the time to get ourselves the help that we need. As long as it doesn't invalidate us then it's just a term.
Quote from: Sia on November 04, 2012, 08:17:25 AM
I won't bother with the whole label policing and "my identity is more valid than yours" thing, but I just wanted to chime in on one point :
Not necessarily. Here in France, transsexualism isn't considered a mental illness anymore since 2010, yet HRT and surgeries are still covered by both the public healthcare system and most private insurances as they are seen as necessary for a trans person's well-being and ability to "function" in society. It's like, say, if someone is suicidal for whatever reason, they can be put on anti-depressants and have them paid by healthcare even if they haven't been diagnosed as suffering from clinical depression.
I'm not very familiar with the US healthcare system (though from what I know of it it seems to suck), but it sets a precedent that it is possible to have it both ways - getting access to the medical care you need without having to be considered sick or dysfunctional for it.
I was just going to ask abuot the French model, since I know transsexuality is no longer considered a mental illness. I really doubt the US would have many insurance companies cover this
because, you know, we're NUMBER ONE! NUMBER ONE!!
::) ::)
I did not post this to start a fight on the internet or anything, I just wanted to know people's opinions about the subject.
My personal opinion is, I don't care. I don't care what "special snowflakes" or whatever are doing on the internet. I'm too old to be worried about kids online. I did get hormones. No ones transition stopped me. I'm also not stopping anyone else by transitioning, either. And neither is the "special snowflake" that people speak of. I feel if you really are bothered by someone else's reasons for transitioning, then you might have the problem, not them. Do I think you need dysphoria to transition? For me, yes, I did not transition for attention as a lot of people in my life have no idea I'm trans* and I "pass" well AND guess what, I do deal with dysphoria. But on the flip side, it's not life threatening. And I'll be damned if someone tries to tell me I'm not trans. Some of insurance companies do cover transition expenses. Not only that, many people don't frequent tumblr or youtube, so they have NO IDEA what a "special snowflake" even is. How is a small portion of the internet going to effect how to WORLD views transfolk? I know I'll get surgery and I'm already on hormones. That's all I'm concerned about. I'm not into policing other people or generally giving a care about what internet "special snowflakes" are doing. End of story.
We're all special snowflakes. Every persons identity is sacred. Protecting that is what this site is all about. Hugs, Devlyn
I certainly don't identify as trans, I identify as male. but if you id as trans, I respect that too. I enjoy being an activist (well, as much as a stealth guy can) in the trans community, but I prefer to be seen as a guy then a trans guy.
i dont know if that made any sense...
I sympathize with people who feel that being trans is a medical condition and are irritated by kids on Tumblr. But it isn't my place to tell someone that they're not trans or 'not trans enough.'
I kinda see it both ways. Identity aside (within the binary or not) not everyone wants to fully transition. I know that my body will never be exactly like a cis male, even if I get every surgery available and stay on T for the rest of my life. This used to get me down, but it really doesn't anymore. I'm totally cool with being a transdude instead of just a dude. Doesn't mean I'm going to go up to random people and tell them "Hi, I'm trans," but you get what I'm saying? I have a medical condition, but I still identify as trans.
to the OP, yes there is an equivalent MTF "truscum" blogger on tumblr, transcultist is her URL I think. She makes excellent points (sometimes).
She can get a little radfemmy though, so if that bothers you...
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 03, 2012, 10:37:05 PM
So I was browsing tumblr and see there is something called "truscum" which is basically transmen who reject the idea that being trans is an identity and that it is strictly a medical condition that needs to be taken care of.
"trans identity" is a social construct, and as such only valid to those who need to believe in it.
The emerging neuro-biological data indicates that GID is a biological and hormonal condition in which the innate perception of ones gender, which resides in specific brain centers, is not in rhyme with external genitalia or assigned sex.
I am a guy with a medical condition which is part of my identity.
Quote from: peky on November 04, 2012, 01:04:53 PM
"trans identity" is a social construct, and as such only valid to those who need to believe in it.
The emerging neuro-biological data indicates that GID is a biological and hormonal condition in which the innate perception of ones gender, which resides in specific brain centers, is not in rhyme with external genitalia or assigned sex.
All the structures of my brain that give me my female identity are pretty normal and no different to those of any woman.
My problem is that my external genitals do not match my "gender identity"
I'm a man with a medical condition.
scenario: It is the future and you are pre-transition. Medical science diagnoses you with GID. Insurance determines it is cheaper to use a new psychiatric medication to fix your brain instead of treating your body.
You can take a pill and wake up loving your body as it is. Do make that choice?
Or do you acknowledge your identity, pay for surgery and take hormones to validate it?
What if the choice is not yours to make due to age or some other reason?
Relying on external confirmation to diagnosis a medical condition tied to self identity can always lead to denying someone's individual right to be the person they need to be to pursue maximum happiness.
Edit: I feel compelled to clarify it is indeed a medical condition. The issue is why does this mean it cannot also be seen as an identity that has value?
Quote from: spacerace on November 04, 2012, 07:50:19 PM
scenario: It is the future and you are pre-transition. Medical science diagnoses you with GID. Insurance determines it is cheaper to use a new psychiatric medication to fix your brain instead of treating your body.
You can take a pill and wake up loving your body as it is. Do make that choice?
Or do you acknowledge your identity, pay for surgery and take hormones to validate it?
What if the choice is not yours to make due to age or some other reason?
Relying on external confirmation to diagnosis a medical condition tied to self identity can always lead to denying someone's individual right to be the person they need to be to pursue maximum happiness.
Edit: I feel compelled to clarify it is indeed a medical condition. The issue is why does this mean it cannot also be seen as an identity that has value?
I would go for fixing the body every time. Gender is a fundamental part of who we are, even for cis people even if they don't realise it, and changing such a major part of someone would be terrifying. I would imagine being like going from hating something to loving it suddenly, but a thousand times more confusing and terrifying. Even if it was the only option available to me for some reason I would choose not to take it.
The fault is with the body and not the brain, so the thought of trying to change the brain, even if hypothetical terrifies me.
medical condition only. i am inter sex my brain formed like that of a man making me identify as male i cant change my brain to match my body so i will change my body to match my brain.
My body has birth defects, not my brain.
So I don't see the point in fixing something that is not broken.
-
But what works for some, might not work for others.
So if the pill is your treatment of choice. All the power to you.
I would never take the pill. I would keep my identity. It's tied to my sense of self.
Calling it an identity doesn't negate it as a medical condition. So why draw lines in the sand and try to divide who is trans enough and who isn't?
Quote from: spacerace on November 04, 2012, 09:04:01 PM
I would never take the pill. I would keep my identity. It's tied to my sense of self.
i agree
I hadnt heard of this, probably since I only use tumblr to look at funny pictures :laugh: I see it as a medical condition and I just want to fix it as soon as possible.
I'm a dude with an unfortunate birth defect/medical condition. I would take the pill to be normal if I could. I didn't choose to be trans or identify as male, but that's how things worked out for me. The best I can do is treat my condition with surgery and HRT and therapy to deal with the stress of it all.
EDIT: I also don't know how I feel about people who "identify" as trans as opposed to just are. I can understand how gender can become part of one's identity, much like a cultural background or religion or your interests. The only issue I take is with people who insist I must "identify" as male, and that I am oppressing others or sick and wrong for viewing my problem as a birth defect that needs fixing. I try to avoid the argument altogether, but it becomes difficult when people jump down your throat often. I don't go to support groups in my area because everyone is in the "identity" crowd and they shame trans men and women who partake in lower surgery to help ease their dysphoria. I remember one time, they took pictures of lower surgery off the internet and mocked them, and told an older member of the group(a trans woman) that she was mutilating herself and encouraging the binary by having lower surgery. She left in tears and I left with her because I was offended by their attitudes.
So I guess if you're the type of trans person who wants to push their ideas about transition onto me and mock the decisions I make about my health, I don't like you and I don't want to associate with you. If you don't push your issues on me and treat me like a fellow human being, I could care less and don't have a problem with you.
100% birth defect.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how people can take so much pride in identifying as trans or "trans*" when there are so many people suffering from a debilitating medical condition.
For me its both.
I say gender-identety myself but I also talk about it as a medical condition. I decribe my surgery as being nessesarry and my homones as medicin.
I think identety fits better when we shall speak for all transgenders and the many diffrent varintations cause its sure not all transgender people has issues who can or would be needed medical threatment.
for transexuals in almost all caise feel a need to do threatment, but not everyone dose so that alone could be seen as a medical condition and is done in certain countrys.
Personally I identify trans cause its something who means alot to me for everyday life.
I also identify as other things, such as my nation and areas, my certain hobbies, like an artist, or a writter, and so on, its a part of me like being trans is.
---------
I bet people who lives a rather normal life would not identify as strickly as people who gain more trouble for being trans, or who puts more efford into it, by aktivism, or comunetys.
and so but we are also all diffrent.
One thing I yet find troublesome is when people go on being "not trans" and putting other trans people down who identify with the label, or who are more gender-bendering than they are.
I honestly feel that is foolish. saying your not trans dosent make you less trans than anybody ells.
Quote from: AJ on November 05, 2012, 08:44:44 AM
100% birth defect.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how people can take so much pride in identifying as trans or "trans*" when there are so many people suffering from a debilitating medical condition.
From what I can tell...what has been said by others here is that they would rather change their body to suit their mind rather than change who they are to suit their body...
It's sort of like someone who is very empathetic/feminine being told that they can't be because they are supposed to be a man; whereas they have two options...
1) become a jerk (change their personality to suit their sex, and become stereotyped)
2) become more feminine (change their body to match their personality)
It's like killing a part of yourself to please the world vs. being yourself and trying to fit into the world.
Quote from: AJ on November 05, 2012, 08:44:44 AM
100% birth defect.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how people can take so much pride in identifying as trans or "trans*" when there are so many people suffering from a debilitating medical condition.
what is the diffrence between trans or trans*?
being trans would usunally make you more likeable to help other transpeople for the treatment matter if thats what you refern to.
Quote from: Natkat on November 05, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
what is the diffrence between trans or trans*?
As far as I understand it the asterix (trans*) makes it include everyone that falls under the transgender catergory (like bi-gender and genderqueer people), not just trans men and women. People use it because to some people "trans" just means trans men and trans women.
I can't really see how someone can identify as trans
* because the purpose of the asterix is to include several gender variations and people aren't all of them at once... being genderfluid and agender at the same time would a bit of a paradox. People normally just say "I'm XXX, I'm genderqueer" though, so I've never actually heard anyone ID as tran
s*.
well I beet you could identify trans* as not really label yourself too much in which kind.
I personal see myself as transexual, but I also feel rather gender-queer or genderfluent at times and I prefern my comunety to be of mixed kinds rather than only transexuals. im not all of them but I can relate to a couple of them and try to be flexible. Sometimes transexual alone wouldnt fit me as some transexuals groups are rather gender-normative, and I dont feel like that. dont know if this make sense.
Quote from: Keira on November 05, 2012, 10:49:12 AM
From what I can tell...what has been said by others here is that they would rather change their body to suit their mind rather than change who they are to suit their body...
It's sort of like someone who is very empathetic/feminine being told that they can't be because they are supposed to be a man; whereas they have two options...
1) become a jerk (change their personality to suit their sex, and become stereotyped)
2) become more feminine (change their body to match their personality)
It's like killing a part of yourself to please the world vs. being yourself and trying to fit into the world.
I'm sorry, but since when does being male automatically mean jerk? There are plenty of regular masculine guys who don't act like jerks and act pretty honorably.
Quote from: Jayr on November 04, 2012, 08:50:22 PM
My body has birth defects, not my brain.
So I don't see the point in fixing something that is not broken.
-
But what works for some, might not work for others.
So if the pill is your treatment of choice. All the power to you.
technically isn't the very definition of GID something that's in your brain? And physical treatments exist now because that is the best way to treat GID...
Quote from: Jayr on November 04, 2012, 08:50:22 PMBut what works for some, might not work for others.
Exactly.
This is what I'm getting at. People are arguing about what "true transexualism" is and is not. People fail to realize that it is different for everyone. By arguing about "true transisexualisn" we pretend to know who is the "real deal" and who is not. We think we know who is "really trans" based on a blog or post on some website and go on crusades against "fakers" and "trenders" to uphold the "truth" for those who are really suffering. The thing is, not everyone is ashamed of being trans or of their medical condition. Just like some people aren't ashamed of being deaf or blind and both of those medical conditions have "communities" like trans people do. What's the difference? I think some people are just angry about their own situations and are taking it out on other people. That lacks maturity.
Quote from: Ave on November 05, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
technically isn't the very definition of GID something that's in your brain? And physical treatments exist now because that is the best way to treat GID...
I never once said I agreed with my medical condition being classified a mental disorder.
If someone asked; I was born with a hormone deficiency/imbalance.
That is all. Nothing concerning my mental health.
I see it as a medical condition and nothing else. I really don't understand why anyone would not see it as such. i did not get to read through all of these responses because i dont have time right now but i can't wait to. It is a medical condition which is corrected through medical means. Being gay is an identity because it's part of like your personality, transsexualism is purely a medical thing.
Quote from: spacerace on November 04, 2012, 07:50:19 PM
scenario: It is the future and you are pre-transition. Medical science diagnoses you with GID. Insurance determines it is cheaper to use a new psychiatric medication to fix your brain instead of treating your body.
You can take a pill and wake up loving your body as it is. Do make that choice?
Or do you acknowledge your identity, pay for surgery and take hormones to validate it?
What if the choice is not yours to make due to age or some other reason?
Relying on external confirmation to diagnosis a medical condition tied to self identity can always lead to denying someone's individual right to be the person they need to be to pursue maximum happiness.
Edit: I feel compelled to clarify it is indeed a medical condition. The issue is why does this mean it cannot also be seen as an identity that has value?
I'd take the pill. I'm surprised no one else would. Even with nearly completing my medical transition I still have dysphoria. I'd rather be a girl with no dysphoria than a guy who does have dysphoria. I'd give anything to be cisgender
Quote from: mangoslayer on November 05, 2012, 09:47:39 PM
I'd take the pill. I'm surprised no one else would. Even with nearly completing my medical transition I still have dysphoria. I'd rather be a girl with no dysphoria than a guy who does have dysphoria. I'd give anything to be cisgender
I would take the pill as well. I can related to the bolded so much.
Quote from: Ave on November 05, 2012, 02:48:46 PM
I'm sorry, but since when does being male automatically mean jerk? There are plenty of regular masculine guys who don't act like jerks and act pretty honorably.
Notice the part about becoming a stereotypical male...it's difficult to pretend to be someone you're not and yet not be stereotypical.
And...it was the first thing that I could think of as a stereotype. I could have used other examples but I thought most people would understand what I meant.
I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.
Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 06, 2012, 01:29:11 PM
Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.
Reading some posts you can tell people don't know the difference between the two.
I don't see it as a "defect". Especially since I'm autistic and don't like to be called "defective" or other nasty things for that too.
I don't want to be "cured", in the sense of being made "normal" and no longer myself. I am a guy and I was labelled wrongly at birth. I also have a disconnect between my body perception and actual shape, so I'll have corrective surgery in order to make my body perception and shape line up properly.
Would I choose to be like this even though cis people often react really adversely to my existence? YES. I don't choose for them to hate me. I just refuse to hate myself any longer and I also won't tread on others just to appease a system that won't like me any better anyway.
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
I would take the pill as long as the chance was very slight. After all it would be unrealistic to expect our personalities to be the same when we've got rid of the dysphoria and everything that comes with being trans.
However the other hypothetical situation -- becoming a cis woman -- I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. I suppose it would be like going from being English to Chinese, they're both perfectly good things to be, if that's what you are. But the culture difference would be one heck of a shock, and I'm not Chinese so it would be wrong for me to become Chinese, I would feel fake and a traitor to my English birth. In the same way, I don't think I would ever feel truly female even with such a magic pill because I would have spent X amount of years as male. Or if I was okay with being a cis woman then I'd feel like I must have been a fraud calling myself a man if something as simple as a pill could take that away.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
I don't know, because if I was cisfemale, then I wouldn't have to deal with rejection. But even though in this hypothetical situation, the pill would make me happily cisfemale, I can't even imagine being a woman. I can't imagine ever being OK with my female body, how that would feel. Being happily cismale is easier to envision as a reality, lol.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
Take the pill. Like i said before. I'd give anything to be cis.
Quote from: .caleb on November 06, 2012, 07:42:10 PM
I don't know, because if I was cisfemale, then I wouldn't have to deal with rejection. But even though in this hypothetical situation, the pill would make me happily cisfemale, I can't even imagine being a woman. I can't imagine ever being OK with my female body, how that would feel. Being happily cismale is easier to envision as a reality, lol.
You read that wrong and are getting it confused with the first hypothetical that was posted.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 07:55:48 PM
You read that wrong and are getting it confused with the first hypothetical that was posted.
Oh! Well then it's not even a question. I'd be cismale, hands down. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, to be honest...anyone who is close to me knows how this wears at my self-worth almost daily.
Quote from: Green_Tony on November 06, 2012, 04:33:47 PM
I don't see it as a "defect". Especially since I'm autistic and don't like to be called "defective" or other nasty things for that too.
I agree on both counts (autism and trans). It is a difference. Maybe not always so convenient.
--Jay J
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
Take the pill.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.
Can you explain what you mean more specifically?
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 06, 2012, 01:29:11 PM
Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.
This is a contributing factor for sure - also people now (as in, 2012) are generally more willing to try and be themselves; especially since they see other people doing it on the Internet who end up leading fuller, happier lives. It is nice to see that other people have the courage to go through with it when the challenges of transitioning seem overwhelming.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:
It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person. The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention. What do you do?
Of course I would take the pill, without a doubt. But that does not mean I will pass judgment on anyone who wouldn't. Darrin is right when he mentioned that it is sorta analogous to the deaf community - though I am in no way comparing being trans to being deaf. A deaf person can take pride in who they are and consider being deaf as a part of their identity, while simultaneously still wanting to hear if given the choice. Conversely, there are people who would benefit from cochlear implants that do not choose to use them.
I would take the pill to have a male body to match my male brain. I would never take a pill to make my male brain match a female body because I identity as male. One pill is affirming; the other seems like a tranquilizer to lull you into denial of your identity. I don't strive to be generically cis-gendered just for the sake of being normal. I want to be myself, and I am male.
Also - taking testosterone is all ready a medication trying to make your body more physically and biologically male, while also having the chance to slightly alter your personality. It's just not as magical as the future pill; it is not complete or quick, with it you also still need surgery, etc. The choice is 'do you want to transition the old ineffective way (hormones and surgery) or the new way (magic one stop pill)'. I'll take the completely successful method, easily.
I wouldn't call my "female brain" a defect because it is my identity; it is who I am on a core level. Although, I might call my body a medical problem; but I don't think I could go as far as to call it defective.
IMO (disclaimer), there is no such thing in our world as "a real girl"; unless one wants to start fighting over semantics and biology. On the social level, all girls are as real as they are (unless they are pretending to fit in with their GAAB).
No real girl will ever fit the stereotype of "girl". This is a matter of practicality (living a fulfilling life) and not abstract philosophical arguments. (By the way I looooove philosophy; just not when it treats people like unfeeling objects)
I just thought I would mention this because in the Trans community we have this "real transgender girl" stereotype going around. Or "Transier than thou".
And yes I would take the pill to make my body match my mind. Making my mind match my body would effectively be suicide of my identity.
-Skye
Quote from: spacerace on November 07, 2012, 03:30:45 AM
Can you explain what you mean more specifically?
I'm talking specifically about people who assume they must be trans because they like doing typical male activities (if they are female) or typical female activities (if they are male), without actually feeling any sort of discomfort in their body or dysphoria.
I think that body dysphoria is not needed to be trans. But unless there is some kind of feeling of wrongness re: you and your assigned gender, may just be someone who is questioning what gender is. I am guessing there is more of that lately-- than say "my generation". I think this all bodes well for trans people. NOt sure if this is what others are referring to.
BTW, I agree that there is a concern about asking people if they are "trans enough" and making expectations about this. I know a mtf who is not super femme (I guess more tomboy or biker chick) and she has gotten flack about being trans enough.
Nice post "wheat thins are delicious" (the name?!).
--Jay J
The definition of dysphoria, trans, seems to be fluid. Changing as time goes on, as people become more open about their gender feelings.
What I understood about this was shaped by the generation I was raised in and each generation will have a different understanding and expectation.
We need to allow for different levels of understanding and be patient with each other.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 07, 2012, 01:01:32 PM
The definition of dysphoria, trans, seems to be fluid. Changing as time goes on, as people become more open about their gender feelings.
What I understood about this was shaped by the generation I was raised in and each generation will have a different understanding and expectation.
We need to allow for different levels of understanding and be patient with each other.
I think this is brilliant (and true, btw). I think that as things were maybe a decade ago (which was my understanding) is that someone who is transgender--at least transsexual (I don't think any other trans existed in that generation's mind) would be profoundly sad and so on in their
"body assigned at birth". I don't think this understanding is still the case. I was not, but it never seemed to really fit, so there is a feeling of mismatch and ill-ease.
I think this easily fits the understanding of trans today. There may be other things that I have no idea about. (Interesting discussion all the way, btw.)
--Jay J
I see it is partial both.
An identity because it is who you are regardless if you go through any surgeries or not.
However, also medical. From my point of view I was born like this. So the fact I was not born male and should have been in my mind, it is also a medical problem.
That is also why some insurance agencies cover some of the costs of T and surgery. It can be considered Medical.
I view it solely as a medical condition, and thats at a push, as it isnt something I want to admit to myself at all, nevermind out loud as something in my life.
May seem harsh, but its how I feel and I have actually been very surprised how many people going through transition do not see things as black and white as I do. Id not come across gender "fluidity" before joining this site! :p
In other areas of my life, most of them actually, Im very open minded and am not narrow in my thinking at all, however with this, I feel so strongly in how I identify as male that I dont identify with lgbt, or anything that is not on the far end of the gender spectrum.
I am horrible at explaining how I feel about things, but I'll give it a shot (I apologize in advance if it doesn't seem clear):
I don't see being trans* necessarily as a medical condition. I am a "Sikh-leaning" person, and I believe in reincarnation and that our souls are genderless. I believe that each life cycle is meant to teach us lessons. So, when I think of me, I don't always think of myself as I am in this present life. I know that in a past life I was a human male, so I think I was put in a female body this time because there was something that I needed to learn about females, or LGBT people that I just didn't get in my past lives.
I think on the gender spectrum, my soul tends to be more on the "male" side of things. Since my soul makes up my core being, I think that is why I sometimes act, speak, and feel what's more typically associated as male. I do have a few female friends, but the bulk of my friends have always been male, I've always been more at ease with men and they are who I've always been easily able to connect with because my core being (or identity) veers more on the male side of things.
I think trans* can be a medical condition because studies have shown that the brains of MTFs (after autopsy) tend to match the brains of biological females, and vice versa. So having something different on a physical scale would account for people having dysphoria. If I wasn't trans, I would just be a more "manly" female who was comfortable in my body-so there must be something different about my brain which explains why I think these things on my chest don't belong and why I need a big grizzly beard.
I just don't like how it's called a "medical condition" because that makes me think of something negative. I just can't equate being trans with having cancer, diabetes, or cerebral palsy, even though it's a lifelong struggle. Being trans isn't going to make me die, be sick, or disabled. But, that's just the limits of our language, physical "abnormalities" are medical conditions or defects-- there are other cultures with multiple gender categories, and I think that's more appropriate because I don't see having a trans brain as being abnormal or unnatural.
Like previous posters, I do find medical condition labeling to be a bit troubling, because I wouldn't want people to be denied access to hormones and surgery if they fail any test that is ever made to determine if people have a physical "abnormality" which makes them trans.
For me, it is both.
Why? Because I feel disgust toward the gender role I have played for so long, and because I hate the body that perpetuated the role. However, that doesn't make me more or less trans* than someone else, it is just the reasons I identify as such.
However, reading this thread, I am suddenly sickened by the holier than thou attitude of some people.
For one: "trans" means "other". So a person can identify as "trans" and be specifically talking about being of the other gender not usually associated with their biological body.
For two: My definition does not have to match up with yours. To deny me my right to feel or define myself due to your superiority complex is wrong...and has been done before....in many different aspects of history. Lets not go down that road again
Just saw a video by uppercase chase (youtube). Might youtube this one. Anyway, I think he has interesting things to say about this one. His idea, and I see this is so true, is that there is maybe like a spectrum of what ftm (or mtf) is. And that people on one side (like "Make it so") see themselves as *male*. Not really transmale or whatever. But if they'd have to use a trans it would be to talk about their medical needs to be purely male. (I hope I'm not putting words in any one's mouth, Make it so.) Anyway, there are others of us for whom this is not so clear. I still want to go on T and get top surgery but I don't feel the gender binary feels so right to me. I don't think I will care if people think I'm a bit "gay looking" and that sort of thing. I know there are guys who wear make up, nail polish, etc etc.
I see this question as a bit of both, but I don't think that actually there is anythign "wrong with me". I might have been born different which is inconvenient as all get out, but not like some kind of medical fix issue. But I see the other side too. And I do now kind of see this as a different way of being trans.
--Jay J
Quoteif you don't have body dysphoria, and you just like dressing and presenting more masculine, you're not trans. You are appropriating a medical condition,
This kind of works from me but, only if you're claiming an "identity" based on the cut of your trousers.
I see it as both identity and biological for a few reasons. Technically, any aspect of our identities is biological since it's all in our brains which is a biological organ. Second, having a medical condition can be part of one's identity because of the experiences. For example, I spent a large chunk of my life looking female, being referred to as female, and thinking I was female (which I now see as denial and screwed up, but still). That history isn't going to go away just because I transition. Third (and this one is personal), if I hadn't learned to trust my own perception of my identity, I wouldn't have realized I had a medical condition. I would have kept feeling like something was missing and not understanding why something still feels wrong.
Personally, I like to see my body as the medical problem, but not my male gender. I really like being male, so I don't want to see that as the problem. My body is the problem. It isn't me.
(Sorry for rambling and being a bit contradictory.)
As for the gender role thing, I think it's part of trying to figure out what gender is, but I understand and also feels the frustration toward people thinking that gender roles have to do with gender identity.
Ultimately, however, we cannot see what is going on in another person's head and they might not be completely clear on it either (which is normal and takes time).
As for the "trans enough" thing, I think that may be part of the problem with the gender role thing. This may just be me, but I feel like there's this pressure to conform to a gender role to "prove" one is "trans enough." That brings up questions like "Well, I liked dresses. Does that mean I'm not male?"
Quote from: Edge on November 24, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
My body is the problem. It isn't me.
This.
Quote from: Edge on November 24, 2012, 08:32:12 AM
As for the "trans enough" thing, I think that may be part of the problem with the gender role thing. This may just be me, but I feel like there's this pressure to conform to a gender role to "prove" one is "trans enough." That brings up questions like "Well, I liked dresses. Does that mean I'm not male?"
This too. I like 'drag queen' shoes and nail polish but I don't feel comfortable enough to wear them because of my dysphoria.
As an Aspie, I find identity politics rather boring and irrelevant. Identity is something that other people have tried to impose on me, and I'm just not that interested. If the only way to fix what's wrong with me is through medical intervention, then as far as I'm concerned I have a medical problem.
[Something for folks to be aware of: I have not read every single post on this thread. 1) because I didn't realize how long the thread was before I clicked it, and 2) because I don't like a lot of what folks are saying (which I'll explain why later in my reply). I just want everyone to know that I hadn't read it all, and didn't even get to page two.]
I'm a tumblr user. I spend a lot of time blogging on there. I follow a lot of trans* folks. However I don't follow anyone that thinks those that are genderqueer aren't actually trans* or thinks that because someone doesn't experience dysphoria that they're not trans*, because no one can tell any one else if they're trans* or not.
I'm genderqueer myself. For the longest time I had thought the only way to be trans* was from one gender to the other. I didn't know there was something in between. And everything I saw on YouTube, blogs, etc was the same thing. So I didn't know it was okay to let my feminine side out, and that sometimes me wanting to dress in a dress was OKAY. Because so many other folks were set with the same thing: T, top surgery, bottom surgery, etc. So that's all I knew for YEARS. Until it caught up with me one day and started to bother me.
Just wanted to give a little background there.
I have a really hard time with folks that think I'm not really trans* just because I'm not a man. I'm not a womon either! I'm somewhere in between. I also have a hard time with folks telling other people I know who don't get gender dysphoria, that they're not trans* because of that. As I've said before, no one can tell any one else whether they are trans* or not. Not even a counselor. No body.
If people want to call it a medical condition: That's fine. So long as they're not saying I'm not trans* just because I don't see it as such (at least for me). And just because I don't identify (I really don't like saying identify but for the sake of not confusing any one I will) as a man doesn't mean I can't transition either. I can do that all I want.
And for those that don't fit the trans* binary (trans women and trans men), we have a hard time trying to transition. A really hard time. I think even more so than the binary because we're something different that probably isn't even MENTIONED in the DSM. I'm not saying it's not hard for the trans* binary to get HRT, surgery, etc, that just it's probably harder for folks that aren't apart of the trans* binary.
My gender is MY own. It's no one's business. How I identify (again for the sake of not confusing any one I'll use this term) is my own business. No one else has the right to tell me I'm not trans*. No body. I don't tell other people they can't be trans*, or they're really not trans* because of some small thing (or big thing!).
Only each individual persyn knows whether they are trans* or not.
I guess I don't feel I entirely understand the topic. I don't really care what anyone else wants to call their specific variety of trans-ness. As long as they don't try to tell me what I am, I'm okay with it. I don't feel that my capacity to transition was particularly related to or hampered by anyone else. And I've met exactly one other person whose experience of gender and sex is similar to mine, so...
For me, I am female. A female with a medical condition called transsexualism. This is what makes sense to my brain. This is how I relate to my body. Transsexualism is a medical condition because it caused a crap ton of pain and made an unholy mess of large chunks of my life. I am transsexual by definition, not by identity.
"Gender identity" is not a thing I seem to have. I don't perceive myself as a woman or a man or whatever. To me those are just social categories I get assigned to on the basis of how my body is perceived. And I'm not really a fan of this categorization. Basically, I don't get along very well with gender. And it doesn't get along so well with me. Apparently this makes me non-binary or agender or genderqueer or something or other. But again, that isn't really an identity. In this case it is a lack of identity. An experience that is defined by other people using various words.
Really the only word I'm willing to claim as my own around gender or sex is female. I identify my body as female. That's it.
But again, I don't see why my experience of my body and gender and sex and identity is in any way relevant to anyone else's experience, except insofar as we can find any commonality that makes it feel a little less lonely. I feel like I'm way more interested in sameness than in difference. Maybe because I'm always so different that sameness seems rare and special. Difference is just the norm.
Other people experience and explain their trans status differently. Is this a surprise or something? Different people are different. In other news: the sky is blue and rain is wet?
This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 24, 2012, 03:47:01 PM
This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.
This. I kinda regret starting it.
I like the idea of medical condition in same way as fat people.
I mean fat people can be fat and go on without careing.
they can also do threatment to help them lose weight if thats what they want.
But i'm pretty much agenst the dignose system. the Dignose system is build so psychiatrist can tell there patients that there abnormal or sick and by that own money on them.
Why dont we stop jugding people whatever there sick or not and ask them whats best for themself.
If people do feel they need help and threatment or not,
why is it that we dont know whats best for ourself but we got strangers to jugde us with no doubt?
I think is being transgender where socially accepted this would not had been a deal, psycolygist dignoses are build on what sociaty belive to be abnormal, thats why homosexualety had been a mental dignose and now isnt anymore because it has become socially accepted in many places.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 24, 2012, 03:47:01 PM
This whole thread is like a psychologist's wet dream.
Yeah, and a trans* sociology student's worst nightmare.... :-\
Hmm, speaking for myself I would say being a transsexual is a medical condition.
Then again my experience is based on what I have been through and it's far from a typical transition. Then if I really think back to about 12 years ago when I was far more active in the online trans community there wasn't many of us. I would say there was 25 or 30 (ftm) of us at best.
Now I couldn't guess how many of us are online. Is that more representative of a comfort level that trans folks feel to be more open or is there really that many more of us? Would the rise of transmen visibility be due to a medical condition that is growing in numbers?
To me saying this is an identity implies choice.
I may be flamed for saying this but I am almost certain there is a sub group of people who identify as transsexuals and they really aren't. I think I seen it called "transtrenders" if I'm not mistaken. It is out there. People who make a mockery of who we are for whatever selfish reason they have. They may very well fit in the umbrella term of transgender but they're not transsexuals. They serve little purpose with their visibility other than confusing people about us.
My clothes don't make me a transman (a term I normally don't use. I am just a man but for the sake of the topic I'm going with that). My likes, dislikes, social groups, upbringing, etc don't make me a transman. My brain is different than my body. My body says one thing while my brain is telling me that is incorrect and I have to medically alter my physical being so I can be comfortable with myself. That is what makes me a transman...
...and to me that sounds like a medical condition.
"People who make a mockery of who we are for whatever selfish reason they have."
No one makes a mockery of someone else by being themselves. Hugs, Devlyn
From my social science background, i look it as gender is ones sexual identity. Gender role is the society's life style for each gender. For me as I feel that my gender is female even though I was born in a Male's body. As a female, who spent most of her life trying to live as a male and being uncomfortable in that role all of my life, I am face with how I will live out my role as a female who was born in the United States in 1946 now that I have outed myself as a transgender female. Having been a teacher who has lived in and has experienced teaching from K-12 grades in many different ethnic communities from the German/Norwegian rule ethnic communities, to the Native American communities of the Dakotas to the Navajo communities in Arizona/New Mexico, to the Black schools in the Southeastern urban area to having lived in mixed ethnic tourist based communities, I have been influenced a wide range of what it means to be female. Some of these communities are based upon female authority being dominant and some are based upon male authority being dominant.
Females have a multitude of ways to express themselves. On small rural farms in the Dakotas in the past the women have labored just as hard physically as the males at many of the same physical activities such as on subsistant farms gathering eggs, milking cows by hand, ringing the supper chicken's neck and plucking the bird, even driving the tractor which was more typical of farms during the 1950s.
I have lived in communities where all of the men sat on one side of the room and the women sat on the other and the children just ran all over the place.
So when transgender men and transgender women try to work out how they will live their lives they have lots of choices in how they will live. This includes a transgender women being some what butch if that fits her personality.
I know I find myself falling into the Hollywood version of the 1950's woman trap that influenced my mother, but that role was not healthy for her and its not for me.
So as we feel free to publicly identify as our gender, than like any other male or female we need to decide what that means for us with in the context of maleness and femaleness within our society. I, as any other female, in the United States have the right not to live out a traditional stereotypical female role and keep my place like a good little girl. I have a right to express myself as a female, but being realistic, I know that not everyone will accept me as one. But so what at my age of 66 what does it really matter.
People at different stages in their life cycle have different issues to face in finding their way to develop their gender identity. But transgender men and transgender women search out the magnitude of choices you have when you decide what kind of man or women you will be. It may help to turn off the television and stop going to the movies and avoiding situations where males and females are abusive of themselves and others.
It also helps to become yourself as you live with your family and friends and everyday experiences or as I was afraid of I would become victim of my own imagination and and fears. I have learned in my life that reality never exists as I imagine it to be in my fears and anxieties.
Just be the person you naturally feel yourself to be and let the chips fall where they may.
Now the medical aspects of my being a female born in a male's body, I have to decide how female my body has to be for me to be comfortable with it. Is my lack of a woman's body mean that I have a medical disorder which can only be corrected with surgery and hormones? And how will making these physical changes affect my overall physical and mental health? This is the struggle.
Thoughts of a grandma.